Thx for all the good info, I agree Alika is young and learning and yes people don’t get the rules in gorilla society an if Effie attacks baby could be hurt. I don’t believe she’s trying to hurt her, yes she’s tossing her around a bit but if she was really afraid she would scream an all adults would respond. I trust the zoo keepers who are the professionals if the baby was truly in danger they would intervene
Thank you for sharing the footage and for your interpretation - after reading it I thought I would see something terrible, but I didn't see anything disturbing. The scene reminds me when Momoka was studying how to hold and carry Sumomo and she was really-really lame, even Riki was better than her - and Sumomo didn't always like being stolen and carried away by here siblings (maybe that's the reason Sumomo made it clear that she wanted to stay with Toto, who had let her be). Venus probably didn't enjoy the play, she was pouting which is a sign of frustration, and she tried to bite Alike, but she didn't cry at all and I honestly didn't see fear in her eyes. Alika, on the other hand, had a real play-face while lying on her back - why would she have that if she wanted to harm her little sister? She's just quite awkward, but she's learning very fast and obviously enjoys being together with the baby, grooms her and holds here when Venus is sleeping. And, most importantly, as you wrote, the other family members stayed calm. Even if we don't consider the lack of fear-cry by Venus, gorillas emit a strong scent when they're distressed, and the others respond to that accordingly. Effie warned Alika that that was enough, and probably (my theory) others would have reacted more strongly if they had perceived a risky situation. I recently saw a scene in which an eager chimp youngster was swinging a baby by holding her by the hands up and down (just like we humans do), and the adults next to her gave clear signs that that was not okay, but not even the baby's mother intervened with force, she just turned up, started to walk towards them, and the adolescent immediately knew she had to stop that game. Gorillas, I think, use even more subtle signals. Kayembe was equally clumsy and rough at carrying Jameela until a few weeks ago, but he also improved a lot, and I've never seen the others (either the moms or the other troop members) intervene with force (and we could hear Jameela protesting loudly! 😆) The first video by the other zoo-visitor contained more disturbing images, but Alika was completely inexperienced and Venus was much smaller then. So I wouldn't worry too much about this scene. But this is only my personal view, and I look forward to a reply sent back to you by the zoo. Thanks again for visiting this family and posting updates!🥰
@latralla, thank you for watching and sharing your thoughts on this video. I was scared about putting it out for all to see but it would have been dishonest not too. I can't change what happens but at least we try to understand the situation and learn from it. Thank you as always for your support and your well thought out replies. I appreciate it very much. I did watch a video when Keyembe didn't want Jameela to go back to Fredie, so he kept pulling her backwards. Eventually she had enough and the sound she made was unmissable. For such beautiful creatures they make a hideous noise compared to the cute squeek you get from Orangutans! But then they must hate the noise that accompanies us all the time. Watching documentries of Gorillas in their natural habitat and how quiet they actually are is soothing to me. You can hear occasional grunts and breaking trees from the babies playing but not much else unless there is trouble. Even the chest pounding noise in my opinion ion I'd calm, a bit like before a bagpipe, you hear them inhale air into the sacs in thier chests and then the wallop of the cupped hands on their chests is a beautiful noise. But when they are hurt or upset, they make a really horrible noise that no one can think is OK or ignore. They are such beautiful animals. ❤
I’m puzzled by the female hierarchy in this troop. One would think that Effie has a higher rank because she has a baby and she’s older than Alika. Maybe it is the case that Alika has a higher status than Effie due to kinship with M’Jukuu? It’s not a secret or shameful that Effie has a poorly developed maternal instinct. Maybe she’s just as happy to let Alika take Venus off her hands for a while? ETA by the 7 minute mark Alika looks totally maternal with Venus. How sweet .
@shawna thank you for watching and commenting. I added my thoughts and interpretation on what was going on behaviour wise with Alika, Venus and Effie. My thoughts are not fact and I really hoped I had been clear about that during the video. So please do tell me if it isn't clear because I need to change my comments to make sure viewers know when I write a fact and when I write my thoughts, interpretations. Regarding hierarchy, I also am not 100% sure if or why Alika is higher than Effie. I did read something the other day saying what you said. I wrote to the zoo before I published the video asking them if they wanted to make a new statement and I asked them to fact check my thoughts I got my first reply late last week saying they have a meeting booked with the gorilla team and they apologised for the delay. So I will let everyone know when I do. So I think Effie is not as dominant as Alika because it is Effie and Venus that do everything last. Training, eating, going to bed. Always last. Alika was wonderful ( apart from turning her upside down to check her bottom) and it is encouraging. Also although I dont know how long Venus was vith Alika, but it was less than an hour from when I got there. One of the questions I have put forward was how does Alika get Venus. I havnt had an answer but I think its when Venus is exploring and Alika pounces. I have seen her running after Mjukuu or climbing above them and suddenly jumping down catching them off guard. I do know it is quite normal for the babies to start wondering further from mum, so in that sense it is not Effie not caring. I believe the only issue with what is going on is that Alika is too rough. The rest is normal. I also truly believe no one gorilla is the same as another, therefor there will be huge variances in the way females interact with baby. We don't expect human mums to be perfect, so why do we condem a gorilla mother because she hasn't been great. The same things apply to humans, how were they raised, did they have a loving mother? Did they interact with babies before? I was told by the curator that he had never seen a gorilla who hasn't got some sort of social damage, and we all think Effie has some sort of socially awkward and strange behaviour. Anyway those are my thoughts, but thank you so much for commenting. Have a lovely week Shawna and I hope you will enjoy the rest of how I found the troop when I finally publish the videos. Please take care and please keep watching and caring.
@@Ape_AppreciationSorry I am seeing this so many weeks later! You are spot on with your observations and your interpretations. The hierarchy in a gorilla troop is complex and I hadn’t much thought about it until lately. Venus was fine with Alika in this video. Venus didn’t try to run away when she had a chance, she fell asleep! As long as Alika isn’t showing disrespect to Effie when she gets a hold of Venus (or hurting Venus) it’s what gorillas do. ❤ ☮️
Poor Venus, not Effie! Effie needs to protect her baby better, you don’t see this happening with the other baby. The only thing Venus is learning is what it feels like to be traumatized. She may not be yelling but you can see she is hooting for her mother. The Zoo knows it’s better to leave the baby with the troop and I understand that but there are other things they can do. I appreciate the updates as painful as it is, for us watching, and for you to film. I sure hope the baby doesn’t end up with a broken arm or leg with all the contortions, or worse, falling from a high distance.
@smokey, thank you for watching and putting forward your thoughts. I believe it is difficult for Venus to take her baby back because she is right at the bottom of the troops hierarchical structure. Mjukuu is the dominant female. I have been told by the zoo that she is very strongly dominant, and when they chose a new silverback to join the females, they had to choose one who is happy to let the females sort things out for themselves. If he had been 'bossy', it would not have worked. I'm saying this because Mjukuu is the mother of the other baby Juno. Alika is Mjukuus daughter as well. I don't think Effie is allowed to argue too much with Alika, whereas when it comes to Juno, Alika gets put in her place. It is a normal thing for gorillas that when the babies get to 6 to 8 months, the mothers start allowing the older siblings to touch or carry their babies a bit more, which is what is happening with Venus. I do wonder if the reason Mjukuu is so protective over Juno is because she is so small. I watched Larry's Animal Safari the other night, and I noticed something he said about baby Kunda not being able to have supplementary bottles because her mother would not allow it. I had never thought about it before but it got me thinking that perhaps its the same situation with Juno, that she would benefit from a few supplementary bottles but Mjukuu wont allow it. Perhaps that is why she is so small. But no matter the reason for Junos small size, I think it is her size that means she isn't allowed to do half the things that Venus can, including being held by her sister. I could of course be wrong. Forgive me also because I feel strangely protective of Effie. I think she has a hard time and my heart goes out to her. Anyway I have more videos from later the same day I filmed this, the 19th September. I am behind and need to catch up. I apologise this has taken me so long to publish.
@@Ape_AppreciationInmho Gorilla moms are free to raise their children as they choose. Even in captivity. If they reject or harm then the zoo can step in. They have little enough agency.
It’s Interesting to see that Alika is dominating over Effie, and also making Effie submit by taking her child away from her forcefully. Venus is scene crying & hooting for his mother but since she can’t do anything to help him she just watches as he gets out through agonizing pain. This zoo is sad and needs to be shut down.
@GrandRegentSScratch, thank you for watching. I reached out to the zoo for a comme t when I published the video. I have just received it and it is on my community page. Thank you for watching.
@patriciamorgan8359, I actually saw a video of a mum and baby in Prague (I think). She has her baby on her feet in the same way Alika is. (I used to do it with my little girl, not on a high shelf but on the bed for a soft landing, but I doubt Alika has a bed 😄. Anyway no one in the comments said she was trying to hurt the baby. The mum was definitely holing the baby calmly, not on a high shelf and she wasn't rough with her/him but I think it helps to recognise that Alikas intention was to play, not hurt but unfortunately she isn't old enough or aware enough to know she is taking it too far. That's my opinion though I know many people won't agree. Thank you for watching and commenting and if you haven't already please can you press the like button and subscribe? 😊
@shawna, are they the troop with the baby that's two months or so younger than Venus? The mum died recently? If so then I do and have become a very big fan of them. I also like the way the channel films and edits the videos. I tend to look at the more experienced channels for inspiration, trying to incorporate the things they do, to my channel and the things that I don't like I try to avoid doing. But uss, if.that is the group then I know them. I know of another troop you might be talking about that has two babies. If it's that troop then I've seen some videos bit don't know much about them :)
She plays with that baby like Kintaro at the kyoto zoo plays with his ball. I just hope she doesn't drop her. I don't think the zoo has any intentions on stepping in unless the baby gets hurt which is a shame.
@edithsavino, thank you for watching and commenting. I'm sorry that it was sad to watch, although I don't think it was all bad. Alika was very loving towards Venus as well. I understand the concern of Venus being dropped, she was very high and it was difficult to watch. I think Alika is doing a lot better than she was before. If you have time, have a look at the European guidelines for gorillas in captivity. It outlines what the zoo needs to consider in certain situations, and I think it helps to understand why the zoo chose to do things the way they do. I have some videos from after this one and you will see that Venus was ok. Very tired but ok. Have a good week and i hope my next few videos will leave people feeling happier.
@lesliewallace, thank you for watching. I wrote a bit about why Venus was so tired. I am working on the videos I took after this one, and you will see that Venus is fine. Thank you doe your comments as always.
@@Ape_Appreciation And you know she is fine because....? The zoo's veterinarian checked her over and pronounced her to be fine? Or what is likely the truth, you don't know anything at all. You're only assuming she's fine. Animals hide their weaknesses. Even domesticated cats will, by all outside appearances, seem "fine" when they're at death's door. People who defend abusers and the people allowing the abuse, and put concerns for the victim which us a BABY last, make me sick to my stomach. You're all either incredibly stupid or incredibly evil.
@@Ape_Appreciation You have no idea what had already been done to the baby BEFORE you arrived. You have no idea what had happened to Venus on all the days you did NOT visit the zoo. You don't have the knowledge or authority to pronounce that baby to be "fine" based on only the abuse you witnessed for an hour or however long you were there. You don't know sh!t about gorillas, and you damn sure don't know anything about the right and wrong ways to treat a baby of ANY species. And the viewers who take this person's word and don't question it are blind sheep or mentally challenged or too lazy to get involved with trying to save babies who are both going through pure hell, which is where child abusers and animal abusers and the people who sit by idly and do nothing to stop it, will end up. This is heinous, and you are candy-coating the truth.
I hope u do not take my negative comments personally. You do a wonderful job getting great videos to us and I thank u. It’s just my gut reaction to the rough treatment just won’t keep still. I know it’s not your fault at all. I wish the people who are in charge would put alika somewhere far from Venus
@sonjavandam, Effie followed her and was watching the whole time. She gave Alika a warning when she climbed up to where Alika was. They then went into their private area, and about 15, 20 minutes later Effie came out holding her baby again. I can't suger coat what happened but I don't think there was anything Effie could do about it. Also if she was to try to grab Venus, it could make things worse. In the video from last month, Gernot was trying to get Venus back and the more he chased, the higher Alika went. I admit that I am very defensive of Effie. I hate seeing people say horrible things about her, so I'm possibly not being impartial. The rest of the day though Venus was fine. I'm slowly getting more videos out. Thank you for watching. Please can you like and subscribe if you havnt already? Have a great week.
@myskinnydip, thank you for watching and commenting. This whole incident was less than an hour, and all that I saw of Alika jiggling Venus around was recorded. So from what I saw it was only a few minutes where she was rough. Accidents happen, and where she was was dangerous. She stopped when Effie gave her a warning. I cant sugar coat it, it is what it is, but the zoo are the experts. I encourage people to read the EAZA guidelines to understand more about why it would be so detrimental to the troop.
J'appréhendais un peu de regarder cette vidéo. Bien que Vénus soit bien secouée, je trouve Alika moins brutale qu'il y a deux mois. Vénus a grandi depuis, elle est plus forte mais on voit qu'elle n'est pas à l'aise, elle a peur. J'ai un pincement au cœur pour Effie qui essaie de la récupérer. Alika, plus haute dans la hiérarchie, ne le lui permet pas et elle doit attendre son bon vouloir. Ces images sont un peu dures mais c'est une tranche de vie de cette troupe et il faut l'accepter sans juger Alika ou Effie. Merci de les avoir partagé avec nous.
Kayembe does get rough but Freddy comes and gets her or keeps him from taking her in the first place 9 times out of 10. That one time when she screamed Freddy came running and even mokolo started making his way to her.
@beckyhodges, I saw that video as well. When gorillas are truly upset they can make a very load and pearcing scream which is very different from thier usual peaceful demeanour. Did you watch the full video or did you start at 2 min 37 sec of my video? I felt the things after the 2:37 that were captured in my video were not upsetting. Im sorry if i got that wrong. I felt it was important that I published Alika with Venus because when my integrity gets questioned by people who know nothing about me it hurts. I want my viewers to trust that I'm not hiding or covering anything up. I am recording and publishing what I see. I have a few videos from later that day when Venus is back with Venus. She looked unharmed in them in my opinion. I intended to and hope I did put the details of where the viewers can read the European Association of Zoo and Aquarium guidelines for wild animals kept in captivity. It might help you trust the zoo and the troop a bit more because I feel you are emotionally invested in little Venuses life. It certainly helped me and I promise that recording Alikas play was not something I wanted to watch. Anyway I hope you will continue to watch my videos and if you are concerned about what is in each video I am happy to give warning s in the descriptions. I hope that helps you and I would be interested in your thoughts and anyone else's who have read the guidelines and what they thought when relating them to the London Zoo troop. I hope you have a lovely day. Thank you as always for watching.
It is dangerous, and it would be very detrimental to the baby also to be removed from the group. There has been some amazing work done for this very situation using special food rewards and positive affirmation. Training older siblings to return a baby to its mother on command and reward training for exhibiting gentler behavior. There have been so many advancements in this field, there is so much knowledge to be had if countries can share. These animals are so highly intelligent, there is so much they can learn, and like us the younger brains learn faster. Really all we can do is hope for the best. Following guidelines is great but the way to change the guidelines is by deciding to try something new and innovative, be the shining star.
@smokey2144 All we can do is hope for the best? You're kidding right? This is a BABY you're discussing. Decent people do NOT sit idly by and watch a baby of any species be physically abused. As far as being detrimental to the group, good grief, not one of them gives a rat's backside about that baby. Alika knows it, she's smart enough to recognize know one cares what happens to that baby. Actually maybe she isn't smart enough. I believe she thinks Venus is a fecking football. Genki from Kyoto Zoo would have punched Alika right in the face if she'd tried that with her son, Kintaro. She stands up to 3 males, including the Silverback to protect him, and will not hesitate to throw everything but the kitchen sink at all of them or spit a mouthful of water in their face and she's 38 years old. These gorillas mostly lay around like they're drugged or something, and can't be bothered with protecting a baby. How are you going to cause harm to a troop of zombies?
That is not natural behaviour for primates in wild. They do play rough but the moms will intervene if babies cry I think Venus is used to this and she doesn’t cry Very sad
@sheribardoel, thank you for watching and sharing your thoughts on this incident. To be honest I really don't know enough about gorillas in the wild. I have been trying to learn more, I've been looking for research and studies but I haven't found enough yet for me to form a solid opinion on this happening in the wild or not. Certainly from watching videos on UA-cam siblings seem to be trying to steal their infant siblings with varying degrees of success! Some are extremely rough and some are gentle. I would like to learn more so if you have read, or watched documentries or spoken to specialist I would very much appreciate if yopreciate it. Thank you so much for your comments and thoughts and for watching my video. There sre more on my channel , most were filmed before this incident. I have released a short from afterwards when Effie got Venus back and I have a few more to come. Have a great week. 😊
@becky, yes. Effie had Venus about half an hour after the video was filmed. I have a video being published shortly called 'cuddle time' and a short that is already published. These were taken when Effie came back with Venus.
Two questions why do zoo keepers allow her to do this and why doesn’t silverback protect the baby? I e given up on Effie protecting her but there’s other ways to protect her it seems like they think because alikA is learning valuable lessons it’s ok to terrorize helpless venus
@beckyhodges, I realise you struggle with this. You have said so many times. I have tried to explain my point of view but it hasn't relieved your concerns. Briefly I don't think the troop intervene because it isn't necessary. Kiburi was napping just below Alika in this video. He was watching but didn't react. In other troops where this happens, which is basically any troop I've seen with young adult siblings, it is common. It happens over and over again. Obviously different personalities, variations in maturity and experience do mean the experience for the baby vary and its not always a great experience. But it is definitely something that happens in gorilla troops so it is allowed to happen, and its no different if the troop are in captivity. In almost every video I've seen where a baby is taken by an older siblings, other members of the troop follow and watch closely. They don't rush in and try to grav the baby. In almost all cases the kidnapper is constantly trying not to give the ba y back. My interpretation is that the mother or whoever us wanting the baby back are very careful to wait for the right time to take the baby in a manner that does not result in a fight or the sibling panicking and potentially climbing unsafely and very high where is the baby was dropped they could be injured horribly. I see Effie and Gernot watching Alika cvery closely every single time and last week I saw Effie actually take Venus back for the first time. She was careful and gentle and didn't scold Alika either. I'm so sorry you find it hard, but I've come to the conclusion that there are some things in life that I dislike that I can't change. I do think Alika was far kinder and is learning and in my opinion, Venus doesn't appear to be as scared of Alika. So I hope it's good news. Thanks for watching and have a great evening.
Eu não confio nesse Zoo, deixar Alika pegar de novo a Vênus? Ja teve um bebê morto por um Silverback, não é confiável. Se eu fosse a Effie a Alika apanharia e nunca mais pegaria a Vênus, não vejo a hora de arrumarem um Silverback para Alika e ver essa gorila ir embora, estou vendo que o Zoo não se mexe, é revoltante! Vênus é um bebê lindo, Alika virou uma ameaça, Alika precisa sair, encontrar outro Zoo para ela, são cenas desagradáveis, horror a esse Zoo.
@claudiadossantosfernand...thank you for watching and your comment. I have put information in the videos description if you would like to make a complaint. I have not shown this video to upset people, the incident was less than an hour. I promised to show what I saw as I have been accused of covering things up, which I am not doing. I don't want anyone to be upset. However do notice that the troop are relaxed and the only gorilla watching the situation was effie. If Venus was in serious danger from Alika the silverback would most likely intervene. He didn't. He was there the whole time. You can see his feet next to Alika when they were sitting in the wood chip. I hope you will continue to watchsome of my videos. Have a good day
@@Ape_AppreciationTo me it looks like Venus is getting better care with Alika. She recognizes that an infant needs to be held near constantly. Some apes are not good mothers. It’s not an insult. The baby has to cared for regardless.
@@shawna6683thank you for sharing your thoughts even if they are not in line with mine. There is never just one way to look at things, and your opinion is important. Thank you for sharing it with all of us. Comments are always appreciated.
@sputnik, I have put the zoos contact in the description if you would like to email them. London Zoo do not own their gorillas but I'm not sure which organisation does. If I find out I will let you know. Thank you for watching and sharing your thoughts. ☺️
I’m sorry this is so difficult to watch anyone can see that poor baby is trying to hoot and cry and looks very distressed. I understand gorilla hierarchy and if Effie keeps letting her baby get taken that often something is not right. Effie months ago appeared to be having difficulty with the baby like she was mentally disturbed pushing the poor baby away often. Now this keeps happening and you say it’s because the dominant female gorilla is Alika’s mom and she cannot go against Alika. I do not understand that because a female gorilla typically would have a higher hierarchy with an off spring. So either something is wrong with Effie mentally or obviously that baby is being tortured in my eyes. No I do not understand gorilla’s but I do understand human babies with 30 plus years experience. And no baby as you put it has fight or flight response that young. I can tell you babies that are abused and their needs are not met like food, being wet, pain or just basic needs do not cry out they learn coping mechanisms such as rocking back and forth or just what they find to self soothing. The baby is wore out having to hold on for dear life being turned and twisted abnormally. So finally when Effie got the baby back it literally passes out. Just like human babies. Abused babies typically don’t cry because they cried with no help so they self soothe. This baby has been through this so much it’s really sad at this point to think gorilla’s are extinct yet we allow this to happen. I will not watch this troop any longer. I do appreciate you trying to understand also. But something is off I feel at times intervention in some sort of fashion is necessary.
@pamcansler, I am very sorry you feel that way. I feel sad that you don't feel able to watch anymore but I respect your decision to do what you feel is right. Please take care. 6ou will always be welcome here no matter what your opinion is. Thankyou for interacting and commenting. I always appreciate it. Take care 🙂
@ringo, Effie doesn't have a choice on the matter. If she was to try to wrestle Venus from Alika what do you think might happen? I'm sorry you feel upset by this and I understand how it looks to us from a human perspective. Also the whole troop were sitting in that corner of the gymnasium. Not one of them looked worried. However, when there is a disturbance, they all tend to get involved. None of us have witness how Alika gets hold of Venus in the first place, although I have seen Alika chase Mjukuu around the room. I don't know if she is trying to get the baby but if she is, then resisting can put the baby in more danger.
@@shawna6683I don't think Effie has much choice. It's happened before where her baby was taken away and I have spoken to people who saw it happen, when Mjukuu took Gernot. She floowed them around for weeks. This time she gets her baby back. When I have been there I have never seen Effie be mean or off hand with Venus, so I don't support your opinion, however as always your opinion is important. Thank you for commenting.
Thx for all the good info, I agree Alika is young and learning and yes people don’t get the rules in gorilla society an if Effie attacks baby could be hurt. I don’t believe she’s trying to hurt her, yes she’s tossing her around a bit but if she was really afraid she would scream an all adults would respond. I trust the zoo keepers who are the professionals if the baby was truly in danger they would intervene
Thank you for sharing the footage and for your interpretation - after reading it I thought I would see something terrible, but I didn't see anything disturbing. The scene reminds me when Momoka was studying how to hold and carry Sumomo and she was really-really lame, even Riki was better than her - and Sumomo didn't always like being stolen and carried away by here siblings (maybe that's the reason Sumomo made it clear that she wanted to stay with Toto, who had let her be). Venus probably didn't enjoy the play, she was pouting which is a sign of frustration, and she tried to bite Alike, but she didn't cry at all and I honestly didn't see fear in her eyes. Alika, on the other hand, had a real play-face while lying on her back - why would she have that if she wanted to harm her little sister? She's just quite awkward, but she's learning very fast and obviously enjoys being together with the baby, grooms her and holds here when Venus is sleeping. And, most importantly, as you wrote, the other family members stayed calm. Even if we don't consider the lack of fear-cry by Venus, gorillas emit a strong scent when they're distressed, and the others respond to that accordingly. Effie warned Alika that that was enough, and probably (my theory) others would have reacted more strongly if they had perceived a risky situation. I recently saw a scene in which an eager chimp youngster was swinging a baby by holding her by the hands up and down (just like we humans do), and the adults next to her gave clear signs that that was not okay, but not even the baby's mother intervened with force, she just turned up, started to walk towards them, and the adolescent immediately knew she had to stop that game. Gorillas, I think, use even more subtle signals. Kayembe was equally clumsy and rough at carrying Jameela until a few weeks ago, but he also improved a lot, and I've never seen the others (either the moms or the other troop members) intervene with force (and we could hear Jameela protesting loudly! 😆) The first video by the other zoo-visitor contained more disturbing images, but Alika was completely inexperienced and Venus was much smaller then. So I wouldn't worry too much about this scene. But this is only my personal view, and I look forward to a reply sent back to you by the zoo. Thanks again for visiting this family and posting updates!🥰
@latralla, thank you for watching and sharing your thoughts on this video. I was scared about putting it out for all to see but it would have been dishonest not too. I can't change what happens but at least we try to understand the situation and learn from it.
Thank you as always for your support and your well thought out replies. I appreciate it very much.
I did watch a video when Keyembe didn't want Jameela to go back to Fredie, so he kept pulling her backwards. Eventually she had enough and the sound she made was unmissable. For such beautiful creatures they make a hideous noise compared to the cute squeek you get from Orangutans! But then they must hate the noise that accompanies us all the time. Watching documentries of Gorillas in their natural habitat and how quiet they actually are is soothing to me. You can hear occasional grunts and breaking trees from the babies playing but not much else unless there is trouble.
Even the chest pounding noise in my opinion ion I'd calm, a bit like before a bagpipe, you hear them inhale air into the sacs in thier chests and then the wallop of the cupped hands on their chests is a beautiful noise. But when they are hurt or upset, they make a really horrible noise that no one can think is OK or ignore. They are such beautiful animals. ❤
I’m puzzled by the female hierarchy in this troop. One would think that Effie has a higher rank because she has a baby and she’s older than Alika. Maybe it is the case that Alika has a higher status than Effie due to kinship with M’Jukuu? It’s not a secret or shameful that Effie has a poorly developed maternal instinct. Maybe she’s just as happy to let Alika take Venus off her hands for a while? ETA by the 7 minute mark Alika looks totally maternal with Venus. How sweet .
@shawna thank you for watching and commenting.
I added my thoughts and interpretation on what was going on behaviour wise with Alika, Venus and Effie. My thoughts are not fact and I really hoped I had been clear about that during the video. So please do tell me if it isn't clear because I need to change my comments to make sure viewers know when I write a fact and when I write my thoughts, interpretations.
Regarding hierarchy, I also am not 100% sure if or why Alika is higher than Effie. I did read something the other day saying what you said.
I wrote to the zoo before I published the video asking them if they wanted to make a new statement and I asked them to fact check my thoughts
I got my first reply late last week saying they have a meeting booked with the gorilla team and they apologised for the delay.
So I will let everyone know when I do.
So I think Effie is not as dominant as Alika because it is Effie and Venus that do everything last. Training, eating, going to bed. Always last.
Alika was wonderful ( apart from turning her upside down to check her bottom) and it is encouraging. Also although I dont know how long Venus was vith Alika, but it was less than an hour from when I got there.
One of the questions I have put forward was how does Alika get Venus. I havnt had an answer but I think its when Venus is exploring and Alika pounces. I have seen her running after Mjukuu or climbing above them and suddenly jumping down catching them off guard. I do know it is quite normal for the babies to start wondering further from mum, so in that sense it is not Effie not caring. I believe the only issue with what is going on is that Alika is too rough. The rest is normal. I also truly believe no one gorilla is the same as another, therefor there will be huge variances in the way females interact with baby. We don't expect human mums to be perfect, so why do we condem a gorilla mother because she hasn't been great. The same things apply to humans, how were they raised, did they have a loving mother? Did they interact with babies before? I was told by the curator that he had never seen a gorilla who hasn't got some sort of social damage, and we all think Effie has some sort of socially awkward and strange behaviour.
Anyway those are my thoughts, but thank you so much for commenting. Have a lovely week Shawna and I hope you will enjoy the rest of how I found the troop when I finally publish the videos. Please take care and please keep watching and caring.
@@Ape_AppreciationSorry I am seeing this so many weeks later! You are spot on with your observations and your interpretations. The hierarchy in a gorilla troop is complex and I hadn’t much thought about it until lately. Venus was fine with Alika in this video. Venus didn’t try to run away when she had a chance, she fell asleep! As long as Alika isn’t showing disrespect to Effie when she gets a hold of Venus (or hurting Venus) it’s what gorillas do. ❤ ☮️
I saw some older video a couple of days ago, from Alika's baby days. I'll look for it later. I got the impression that she was always eager to play.
@patriciamorgan, if you do find her baby videos I would love to see them 😊
@@patriciamorgan8359 Me too about Alika as a baby. I will search rn.
Poor Venus, not Effie! Effie needs to protect her baby better, you don’t see this happening with the other baby. The only thing Venus is learning is what it feels like to be traumatized. She may not be yelling but you can see she is hooting for her mother. The Zoo knows it’s better to leave the baby with the troop and I understand that but there are other things they can do. I appreciate the updates as painful as it is, for us watching, and for you to film. I sure hope the baby doesn’t end up with a broken arm or leg with all the contortions, or worse, falling from a high distance.
@smokey, thank you for watching and putting forward your thoughts.
I believe it is difficult for Venus to take her baby back because she is right at the bottom of the troops hierarchical structure. Mjukuu is the dominant female. I have been told by the zoo that she is very strongly dominant, and when they chose a new silverback to join the females, they had to choose one who is happy to let the females sort things out for themselves. If he had been 'bossy', it would not have worked. I'm saying this because Mjukuu is the mother of the other baby Juno. Alika is Mjukuus daughter as well.
I don't think Effie is allowed to argue too much with Alika, whereas when it comes to Juno, Alika gets put in her place.
It is a normal thing for gorillas that when the babies get to 6 to 8 months, the mothers start allowing the older siblings to touch or carry their babies a bit more, which is what is happening with Venus.
I do wonder if the reason Mjukuu is so protective over Juno is because she is so small.
I watched Larry's Animal Safari the other night, and I noticed something he said about baby Kunda not being able to have supplementary bottles because her mother would not allow it. I had never thought about it before but it got me thinking that perhaps its the same situation with Juno, that she would benefit from a few supplementary bottles but Mjukuu wont allow it. Perhaps that is why she is so small. But no matter the reason for Junos small size, I think it is her size that means she isn't allowed to do half the things that Venus can, including being held by her sister.
I could of course be wrong. Forgive me also because I feel strangely protective of Effie. I think she has a hard time and my heart goes out to her.
Anyway I have more videos from later the same day I filmed this, the 19th September. I am behind and need to catch up. I apologise this has taken me so long to publish.
@@Ape_AppreciationInmho Gorilla moms are free to raise their children as they choose. Even in captivity. If they reject or harm then the zoo can step in. They have little enough agency.
@smokey, I have received a statement from the zoo whi h I have put on my community page.😊😊
It’s Interesting to see that Alika is dominating over Effie, and also making Effie submit by taking her child away from her forcefully. Venus is scene crying & hooting for his mother but since she can’t do anything to help him she just watches as he gets out through agonizing pain. This zoo is sad and needs to be shut down.
@GrandRegentSScratch, thank you for watching.
I reached out to the zoo for a comme t when I published the video.
I have just received it and it is on my community page.
Thank you for watching.
Alika had hold of Venus and Venus had hold of Alika. I've seen documentaries of gorillas in the wild playing like that.
@patriciamorgan8359, I actually saw a video of a mum and baby in Prague (I think). She has her baby on her feet in the same way Alika is. (I used to do it with my little girl, not on a high shelf but on the bed for a soft landing, but I doubt Alika has a bed 😄. Anyway no one in the comments said she was trying to hurt the baby. The mum was definitely holing the baby calmly, not on a high shelf and she wasn't rough with her/him but I think it helps to recognise that Alikas intention was to play, not hurt but unfortunately she isn't old enough or aware enough to know she is taking it too far. That's my opinion though I know many people won't agree.
Thank you for watching and commenting and if you haven't already please can you press the like button and subscribe? 😊
@@Ape_AppreciationHave you seen any videos of the Zoo Gaia gorillas? Lomako is the silverback.
@shawna, are they the troop with the baby that's two months or so younger than Venus? The mum died recently? If so then I do and have become a very big fan of them. I also like the way the channel films and edits the videos. I tend to look at the more experienced channels for inspiration, trying to incorporate the things they do, to my channel and the things that I don't like I try to avoid doing.
But uss, if.that is the group then I know them. I know of another troop you might be talking about that has two babies. If it's that troop then I've seen some videos bit don't know much about them :)
She plays with that baby like Kintaro at the kyoto zoo plays with his ball. I just hope she doesn't drop her. I don't think the zoo has any intentions on stepping in unless the baby gets hurt which is a shame.
@edithsavino, thank you for watching and commenting. I'm sorry that it was sad to watch, although I don't think it was all bad. Alika was very loving towards Venus as well.
I understand the concern of Venus being dropped, she was very high and it was difficult to watch. I think Alika is doing a lot better than she was before.
If you have time, have a look at the European guidelines for gorillas in captivity. It outlines what the zoo needs to consider in certain situations, and I think it helps to understand why the zoo chose to do things the way they do.
I have some videos from after this one and you will see that Venus was ok. Very tired but ok.
Have a good week and i hope my next few videos will leave people feeling happier.
@edithsavino5226 love watching Gentaro and Kintaro and that family.
@edithsavino, I have put a statement from London Zoo on my community page regarding the matter of Alika and Venus if you want to have a look. :)
I sure hope she survives. She just flopped to the ground and wasn't moving. ☹️😢 Thanks for the update
@lesliewallace, thank you for watching. I wrote a bit about why Venus was so tired. I am working on the videos I took after this one, and you will see that Venus is fine.
Thank you doe your comments as always.
@@Ape_Appreciation that makes me feel better! She's such a doll and I absolutely adore her. Thanks for a great video
@@Ape_Appreciation And you know she is fine because....? The zoo's veterinarian checked her over and pronounced her to be fine? Or what is likely the truth, you don't know anything at all. You're only assuming she's fine. Animals hide their weaknesses. Even domesticated cats will, by all outside appearances, seem "fine" when they're at death's door. People who defend abusers and the people allowing the abuse, and put concerns for the victim which us a BABY last, make me sick to my stomach. You're all either incredibly stupid or incredibly evil.
@@Ape_Appreciation You have no idea what had already been done to the baby BEFORE you arrived. You have no idea what had happened to Venus on all the days you did NOT visit the zoo. You don't have the knowledge or authority to pronounce that baby to be "fine" based on only the abuse you witnessed for an hour or however long you were there. You don't know sh!t about gorillas, and you damn sure don't know anything about the right and wrong ways to treat a baby of ANY species. And the viewers who take this person's word and don't question it are blind sheep or mentally challenged or too lazy to get involved with trying to save babies who are both going through pure hell, which is where child abusers and animal abusers and the people who sit by idly and do nothing to stop it, will end up. This is heinous, and you are candy-coating the truth.
I hope u do not take my negative comments personally. You do a wonderful job getting great videos to us and I thank u. It’s just my gut reaction to the rough treatment just won’t keep still. I know it’s not your fault at all. I wish the people who are in charge would put alika somewhere far from Venus
She is not mature enough to care for that adorable child. Where was the mom🤔
@sonjavandam, Effie followed her and was watching the whole time. She gave Alika a warning when she climbed up to where Alika was. They then went into their private area, and about 15, 20 minutes later Effie came out holding her baby again.
I can't suger coat what happened but I don't think there was anything Effie could do about it. Also if she was to try to grab Venus, it could make things worse. In the video from last month, Gernot was trying to get Venus back and the more he chased, the higher Alika went. I admit that I am very defensive of Effie. I hate seeing people say horrible things about her, so I'm possibly not being impartial. The rest of the day though Venus was fine. I'm slowly getting more videos out.
Thank you for watching. Please can you like and subscribe if you havnt already? Have a great week.
Poor Effie! The good thing is that Venus is learning and getting stronger every day!
@@MySkinnydip good point! She is getting stronger.
@myskinnydip, thank you for watching and commenting. This whole incident was less than an hour, and all that I saw of Alika jiggling Venus around was recorded. So from what I saw it was only a few minutes where she was rough. Accidents happen, and where she was was dangerous. She stopped when Effie gave her a warning.
I cant sugar coat it, it is what it is, but the zoo are the experts. I encourage people to read the EAZA guidelines to understand more about why it would be so detrimental to the troop.
J'appréhendais un peu de regarder cette vidéo. Bien que Vénus soit bien secouée, je trouve Alika moins brutale qu'il y a deux mois. Vénus a grandi depuis, elle est plus forte mais on voit qu'elle n'est pas à l'aise, elle a peur. J'ai un pincement au cœur pour Effie qui essaie de la récupérer. Alika, plus haute dans la hiérarchie, ne le lui permet pas et elle doit attendre son bon vouloir. Ces images sont un peu dures mais c'est une tranche de vie de cette troupe et il faut l'accepter sans juger Alika ou Effie. Merci de les avoir partagé avec nous.
@bettinapons, thank you for your kind comments. Always appreciated and I'm relieved to hear yours and many others opinions on this situation.
Kayembe does get rough but Freddy comes and gets her or keeps him from taking her in the first place 9 times out of 10. That one time when she screamed Freddy came running and even mokolo started making his way to her.
@beckyhodges, I saw that video as well. When gorillas are truly upset they can make a very load and pearcing scream which is very different from thier usual peaceful demeanour.
Did you watch the full video or did you start at 2 min 37 sec of my video? I felt the things after the 2:37 that were captured in my video were not upsetting. Im sorry if i got that wrong.
I felt it was important that I published Alika with Venus because when my integrity gets questioned by people who know nothing about me it hurts. I want my viewers to trust that I'm not hiding or covering anything up. I am recording and publishing what I see.
I have a few videos from later that day when Venus is back with Venus. She looked unharmed in them in my opinion.
I intended to and hope I did put the details of where the viewers can read the European Association of Zoo and Aquarium guidelines for wild animals kept in captivity.
It might help you trust the zoo and the troop a bit more because I feel you are emotionally invested in little Venuses life. It certainly helped me and I promise that recording Alikas play was not something I wanted to watch.
Anyway I hope you will continue to watch my videos and if you are concerned about what is in each video I am happy to give warning s in the descriptions. I hope that helps you and I would be interested in your thoughts and anyone else's who have read the guidelines and what they thought when relating them to the London Zoo troop. I hope you have a lovely day. Thank you as always for watching.
I wonder why this is allowed. This isn’t normal behavior on alikA or Effie’s part
It is dangerous, and it would be very detrimental to the baby also to be removed from the group. There has been some amazing work done for this very situation using special food rewards and positive affirmation. Training older siblings to return a baby to its mother on command and reward training for exhibiting gentler behavior. There have been so many advancements in this field, there is so much knowledge to be had if countries can share. These animals are so highly intelligent, there is so much they can learn, and like us the younger brains learn faster. Really all we can do is hope for the best. Following guidelines is great but the way to change the guidelines is by deciding to try something new and innovative, be the shining star.
@smokey2144 All we can do is hope for the best? You're kidding right? This is a BABY you're discussing. Decent people do NOT sit idly by and watch a baby of any species be physically abused. As far as being detrimental to the group, good grief, not one of them gives a rat's backside about that baby. Alika knows it, she's smart enough to recognize know one cares what happens to that baby. Actually maybe she isn't smart enough. I believe she thinks Venus is a fecking football. Genki from Kyoto Zoo would have punched Alika right in the face if she'd tried that with her son, Kintaro. She stands up to 3 males, including the Silverback to protect him, and will not hesitate to throw everything but the kitchen sink at all of them or spit a mouthful of water in their face and she's 38 years old. These gorillas mostly lay around like they're drugged or something, and can't be bothered with protecting a baby. How are you going to cause harm to a troop of zombies?
That is not natural behaviour for primates in wild. They do play rough but the moms will intervene if babies cry
I think Venus is used to this and she doesn’t cry
Very sad
@sheribardoel, thank you for watching and sharing your thoughts on this incident. To be honest I really don't know enough about gorillas in the wild. I have been trying to learn more, I've been looking for research and studies but I haven't found enough yet for me to form a solid opinion on this happening in the wild or not. Certainly from watching videos on UA-cam siblings seem to be trying to steal their infant siblings with varying degrees of success! Some are extremely rough and some are gentle. I would like to learn more so if you have read, or watched documentries or spoken to specialist I would very much appreciate if yopreciate it.
Thank you so much for your comments and thoughts and for watching my video. There sre more on my channel , most were filmed before this incident. I have released a short from afterwards when Effie got Venus back and I have a few more to come.
Have a great week. 😊
Did effie ever get her back or is she Alicia’s fav doll now?
@becky, yes. Effie had Venus about half an hour after the video was filmed.
I have a video being published shortly called 'cuddle time' and a short that is already published. These were taken when Effie came back with Venus.
Two questions why do zoo keepers allow her to do this and why doesn’t silverback protect the baby? I e given up on Effie protecting her but there’s other ways to protect her it seems like they think because alikA is learning valuable lessons it’s ok to terrorize helpless venus
@beckyhodges, I realise you struggle with this. You have said so many times. I have tried to explain my point of view but it hasn't relieved your concerns.
Briefly I don't think the troop intervene because it isn't necessary. Kiburi was napping just below Alika in this video. He was watching but didn't react. In other troops where this happens, which is basically any troop I've seen with young adult siblings, it is common. It happens over and over again. Obviously different personalities, variations in maturity and experience do mean the experience for the baby vary and its not always a great experience. But it is definitely something that happens in gorilla troops so it is allowed to happen, and its no different if the troop are in captivity. In almost every video I've seen where a baby is taken by an older siblings, other members of the troop follow and watch closely. They don't rush in and try to grav the baby. In almost all cases the kidnapper is constantly trying not to give the ba y back. My interpretation is that the mother or whoever us wanting the baby back are very careful to wait for the right time to take the baby in a manner that does not result in a fight or the sibling panicking and potentially climbing unsafely and very high where is the baby was dropped they could be injured horribly.
I see Effie and Gernot watching Alika cvery closely every single time and last week I saw Effie actually take Venus back for the first time. She was careful and gentle and didn't scold Alika either.
I'm so sorry you find it hard, but I've come to the conclusion that there are some things in life that I dislike that I can't change. I do think Alika was far kinder and is learning and in my opinion, Venus doesn't appear to be as scared of Alika. So I hope it's good news.
Thanks for watching and have a great evening.
Eu não confio nesse Zoo, deixar Alika pegar de novo a Vênus? Ja teve um bebê morto por um Silverback, não é confiável. Se eu fosse a Effie a Alika apanharia e nunca mais pegaria a Vênus, não vejo a hora de arrumarem um Silverback para Alika e ver essa gorila ir embora, estou vendo que o Zoo não se mexe, é revoltante! Vênus é um bebê lindo, Alika virou uma ameaça, Alika precisa sair, encontrar outro Zoo para ela, são cenas desagradáveis, horror a esse Zoo.
@claudiadossantosfernand...thank you for watching and your comment.
I have put information in the videos description if you would like to make a complaint.
I have not shown this video to upset people, the incident was less than an hour. I promised to show what I saw as I have been accused of covering things up, which I am not doing.
I don't want anyone to be upset. However do notice that the troop are relaxed and the only gorilla watching the situation was effie. If Venus was in serious danger from Alika the silverback would most likely intervene. He didn't. He was there the whole time. You can see his feet next to Alika when they were sitting in the wood chip.
I hope you will continue to watchsome of my videos.
Have a good day
@@Ape_AppreciationTo me it looks like Venus is getting better care with Alika. She recognizes that an infant needs to be held near constantly. Some apes are not good mothers. It’s not an insult. The baby has to cared for regardless.
@@shawna6683thank you for sharing your thoughts even if they are not in line with mine. There is never just one way to look at things, and your opinion is important. Thank you for sharing it with all of us. Comments are always appreciated.
I send an email to Gorila Land, in order to achieve some explication about London Zoo. Will ser
@sputnik, I have put the zoos contact in the description if you would like to email them. London Zoo do not own their gorillas but I'm not sure which organisation does. If I find out I will let you know.
Thank you for watching and sharing your thoughts. ☺️
I’m sorry this is so difficult to watch anyone can see that poor baby is trying to hoot and cry and looks very distressed. I understand gorilla hierarchy and if Effie keeps letting her baby get taken that often something is not right. Effie months ago appeared to be having difficulty with the baby like she was mentally disturbed pushing the poor baby away often. Now this keeps happening and you say it’s because the dominant female gorilla is Alika’s mom and she cannot go against Alika. I do not understand that because a female gorilla typically would have a higher hierarchy with an off spring. So either something is wrong with Effie mentally or obviously that baby is being tortured in my eyes. No I do not understand gorilla’s but I do understand human babies with 30 plus years experience. And no baby as you put it has fight or flight response that young. I can tell you babies that are abused and their needs are not met like food, being wet, pain or just basic needs do not cry out they learn coping mechanisms such as rocking back and forth or just what they find to self soothing. The baby is wore out having to hold on for dear life being turned and twisted abnormally. So finally when Effie got the baby back it literally passes out. Just like human babies. Abused babies typically don’t cry because they cried with no help so they self soothe. This baby has been through this so much it’s really sad at this point to think gorilla’s are extinct yet we allow this to happen. I will not watch this troop any longer. I do appreciate you trying to understand also. But something is off I feel at times intervention in some sort of fashion is necessary.
@pamcansler, I am very sorry you feel that way. I feel sad that you don't feel able to watch anymore but I respect your decision to do what you feel is right. Please take care. 6ou will always be welcome here no matter what your opinion is. Thankyou for interacting and commenting. I always appreciate it. Take care 🙂
Effie is not good mother 😡
@ringo, Effie doesn't have a choice on the matter. If she was to try to wrestle Venus from Alika what do you think might happen? I'm sorry you feel upset by this and I understand how it looks to us from a human perspective.
Also the whole troop were sitting in that corner of the gymnasium. Not one of them looked worried. However, when there is a disturbance, they all tend to get involved.
None of us have witness how Alika gets hold of Venus in the first place, although I have seen Alika chase Mjukuu around the room. I don't know if she is trying to get the baby but if she is, then resisting can put the baby in more danger.
@@Ape_Appreciation ok I understand Venus has fear 😢😭it hurts 😭🙏🏼 poor Venus says help me mummy 😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭
@@Ringo.2021Effie is not a good mother. It’s simple.
@@shawna6683I don't think Effie has much choice. It's happened before where her baby was taken away and I have spoken to people who saw it happen, when Mjukuu took Gernot. She floowed them around for weeks. This time she gets her baby back. When I have been there I have never seen Effie be mean or off hand with Venus, so I don't support your opinion, however as always your opinion is important. Thank you for commenting.
Baloney no excuses for effie. Animal instinct that’s her baby who depends on her and she does nothing