Yup, I’ve used this as a hard as 5.9. An additional trick you don’t mention is to place the weaker climber at the short tie-in. Then they both physically and mentally experience a more traditional belay. Meanwhile, the leader who will swing is the end climber. If you are carrying a team pack, the short tie-in climber gets the pack. If you know there is a crux section of a specific length (ie not continuous), you use a longer than 60m rope in order to separate the climbers by the length of the crux section; 10m is often a good length for end and short climber visibility and communication without both being a steep step together. You can also consider back clipping gear to potentially limit swing danger and possibly reduce force in the event of a fall by the end climber. Ultimately, I prefer twins if you will need another line to rappel, despite the rope management challenge. But short roping is a great tool for 3 on easier terrain. Thanks for making this video.
@@keithhoffman22 you call out some very good additional information. I particularly like your point about positioning a weaker climber in the middle. I also like climbing on twins for many reasons, but for this low-angled stuff, this sure simplifies things! Great addition to the discussion! 💪 Thanks! 🙏
This is all Greek to me. Unless we consider a party of three covering glacier terrain with the end and middle climbers tied in and simul-climbing as end roping. In that case, this is all very similar. On rock, I never considered using this technique. It is neat.
@@macmurfy2jka it's very similar to glacier travel, but for not having the person right in the middle, as we want to be able to still climb something close to a full rope length before needing to set the belay for the two followers. It really only happens in places with lots of beginner rock where traditional pitched climbing is more costing time than it is adding safety.
Very interesting, thanks for the video. Might sound like heresy, but is cross loading really a potential issue with lightweight kids? (Obviously it is with adults)
@@francescodevittori6179 That's a fair point. Some people make the same argument about glacier travel and crevasse falls because rope cut and low angles reduce fall forces. For me, since it doesn't take more time or weight to address the possibility, may as well address it.
The inline eight can feel weird(ish) when the middle climber is above the knot (maybe because the end climber has slowed down, pinning the rope). But that is more of a preference than anything. The butterfly or an overhand would be fine, too.
I've done essentially this same method, but for the middle climber we used an alpine butterfly knot with a long loop pulled through instead of the cows tail.
@@2002mitchell I find the little guys can trip on a big loop, whereas the cow's tail tends to have the two strands "stay together" a bit better, but you are saving rope and have a simpler system with fewer chances for a mistake! Good idea! 💡
Yup, I’ve used this as a hard as 5.9. An additional trick you don’t mention is to place the weaker climber at the short tie-in. Then they both physically and mentally experience a more traditional belay. Meanwhile, the leader who will swing is the end climber. If you are carrying a team pack, the short tie-in climber gets the pack. If you know there is a crux section of a specific length (ie not continuous), you use a longer than 60m rope in order to separate the climbers by the length of the crux section; 10m is often a good length for end and short climber visibility and communication without both being a steep step together. You can also consider back clipping gear to potentially limit swing danger and possibly reduce force in the event of a fall by the end climber. Ultimately, I prefer twins if you will need another line to rappel, despite the rope management challenge. But short roping is a great tool for 3 on easier terrain. Thanks for making this video.
@@keithhoffman22 you call out some very good additional information. I particularly like your point about positioning a weaker climber in the middle. I also like climbing on twins for many reasons, but for this low-angled stuff, this sure simplifies things! Great addition to the discussion! 💪 Thanks! 🙏
This is all Greek to me. Unless we consider a party of three covering glacier terrain with the end and middle climbers tied in and simul-climbing as end roping. In that case, this is all very similar.
On rock, I never considered using this technique. It is neat.
@@macmurfy2jka it's very similar to glacier travel, but for not having the person right in the middle, as we want to be able to still climb something close to a full rope length before needing to set the belay for the two followers. It really only happens in places with lots of beginner rock where traditional pitched climbing is more costing time than it is adding safety.
Very interesting, thanks for the video. Might sound like heresy, but is cross loading really a potential issue with lightweight kids? (Obviously it is with adults)
@@francescodevittori6179 That's a fair point. Some people make the same argument about glacier travel and crevasse falls because rope cut and low angles reduce fall forces. For me, since it doesn't take more time or weight to address the possibility, may as well address it.
Thanks for the info! Any reason for using figure 8 on a bight vs the inline figure 8 or a butterfly?
The inline eight can feel weird(ish) when the middle climber is above the knot (maybe because the end climber has slowed down, pinning the rope). But that is more of a preference than anything. The butterfly or an overhand would be fine, too.
I've done essentially this same method, but for the middle climber we used an alpine butterfly knot with a long loop pulled through instead of the cows tail.
@@2002mitchell I find the little guys can trip on a big loop, whereas the cow's tail tends to have the two strands "stay together" a bit better, but you are saving rope and have a simpler system with fewer chances for a mistake! Good idea! 💡