"When they ran out of ships they used guns, when they ran out of guns they used knives, sticks and bare hands. They were magnificent. I only hope that when it is my time, I may die with HALF as much dignity as I saw in their eyes at the end. They did this for 2 years. They never ran out of courage, but they ran out of time"
One of my Favourite speeches. And londo wasn't wrong. How he faced his own death and the fact the war continued, the minbari began to grudgingly respect humans. Except John 'nuke em' Sheridan 😂
"Only one human captain has ever survived battle with a Minbari fleet... he is behind me... you are in front of me. If you value your lives be somewhere else." That's the kind of love old star killer gets from the Minbari! Well the one he gets married to anyways.
Sheridan said it himself. Sometimes he truly understood Deelen sometimes she was a complete mystery to him... ok... I believe that's how all man think about woman... mhh....
@@casbot71 Probably because hello to the minbari was the equivalent of saying you slept with their mum. Human officer: hello Minbari:what, I'll kill you for that insult 😂
I hope you've watched "In the Beginning" by now... And, just a brief statement. In B5, it's not Earth's technology that impresses the various aliens in this vast story, it's humanities (indomitable spirit) that seems to be our claim to fame.
I admit I had a laugh at the geriatric war. That was a good one. I also agree a Dilgar war video would be an interesting one to do, but apparently there is not a lot of information on it. Are you planning to eventually go into ship breakdowns, like you do with Trek?
*SPOILERS* It would be interesting if Babylon 5 included alienate realities like Star Trek and there was a mirror universe. [This maybe inaccurate in some details as it's been decades since I watched, it fact I guarantee it as I did miss a few episodes] Instead of calling off the attack on Earth when they realise Humans have Minbari souls, the Warrior caste ignore the command, or they don't find out till much later if ever about human souls (and then it's too late, humanity will never forgive, and may well have the upper hand as I'll explain). Earth is wiped out, humanity scatters, and then becomes the Minbari's worst nightmare as humanity goes evil with plans of biblical vengeance. Psi Corp had evacuated (perhaps they had a hyperspace base/ship even back then) and now have no oversight at all so they are hidden in some outer region, breeding super psi and using whatever reproductive tech (human and alien) they can to increase numbers and abilities. Imagine tanks full of genetically enhanced crossbreeds of the most powerful psi's, with defects removed (and variety introduced from gene banks taken off Earth before the destruction to prevent inbreeding). There is that special forces Cyborg colony from Crusade, they would be picked up and and go with the exodus of survivors. Plus whatever other nasty human experiments and secret projects and specially trained operatives (and whatever that techno mage was in Crusade? They used shadow tech) were secreted away off world, or evacuated before the battle of the line. EarthGov expected to lose, they would have gotten their most valuable assets off world to form the core of a new Humanity far away from the Minbari. In the aftermath human survivors lay low, find sympathisers among alien races, particularity the Narn who identify with what just happened, (because of no deal with the shadows via that old human guy, the Narn Centari conflict goes completely differently and most likely just stops or stays cold for the time being as the Shadows work on seducing Humanity) And then humanity gets their hands on advanced alien tech (they almost did get Narn weapons before to fight the Minbari, but the Centari stuffed it up because they thought it was a Narn plot), especially if the Psi corps are running the show, cause then Humanity could use trained psi to get hold of tech and to learn how to use it and build it from stealing the skills from the minds of experts. Humanity becomes a guerrilla race. And then the remains of humanity get involved with the shadows, who promise them revenge on the Minbari. So humans become a Shadow race, composed of the sneaky paranoid survivors of the war, with a high percentage of psi and no moral scruples at all, but still having the Human gift of making alliances, especially if they start offering service as psi for hire. It's safe to use them because using a psi from a major race is risky because it could be an attempt by that power to undermine you. Just don't let the Minbari know - assuming the Minbari are still trying to wipe out every last human and also haven't realised they just committed self genocide. By this time the Drakh have brought a lot of Humanity to Z'ha'dum and they completely throw in with the ideology and the Shadows now have a very useful and motivated race on the team. Next the Minbari start getting hit by Shadow ships, with human psi controllers immune to psi counterattack by Minbari telepaths. The Minbari would be the first target, Humanity would insist on it, and the Shadows would agree as they are the greatest threat among the young races. And none of the other races would help or care, because they think the Minbari deserve it for kerbstomping a new race, that seemed nice enough. Also because they are afraid that the Minbari might take offence at them next so are relived to see them taken care of as an unstable threat, the Minbari are seen as bad guys by the rest of the galaxy. So the Minbari get wiped out by Humanity using Shadow tech, maybe they learn by then that Humans are their own souls reborn and also that they intimidated the first Earth ship into firing by overloading their systems while displaying weapons that Humans mistook as a attack. Then the newly formed Terra Reborn Overlord Government [ T.R.O.G. ? I really didn't think that one out…] starts rampaging as the strong right arm of the Shadows. And since Humanity doesn't have a specific homeworld that can be targeted (while Z'ha'dum is a base of operations, Humans would make sure to spread out for safety in cells) they are hard to counterattack against. The other races that are sympathetic to or done deals with Humanity join the Shadow Alliance, because now it looks like the wining team and they're offered a spot. Maybe the Narn instead of the Centari join the team, in which case goodbye Centari. Or Humanity is able to get both of them onside and they decide neither wants to be against the Human Shadow Alliance. So the Vorlons are basically stuffed as their psi weapons are now working for the Shadows and are very bitter and possibly insane survivors of an attempted genocide. So the Shadows win, except they just won the previous war as Sinclair doesn't take Babylon 4 back in time to help the Minbari as Valen. Paradox time, but at least the Minbari learnt a valuable and fatal lesson. As the last Minbari dies at human hands, thinking "opps, yeah, our fault", it hears the victorious human scream out it's terrifying battlecry …"Humanity, Fuck Yeah!".
Try searching on YT for star wreck in the pirkining. It's a fan made B5 vs ST spoof & considering it's fan made & a few years old now the cgi isn't too bad. It may not be listed under its real name but turns up if you search Babylon 5 vs star trek. The star trek universe goes down a different timeline & becomes an aggressive space race, then they go through a wormhole to B5. It's worth watching just to see the Sheridan character breaking in to a speech at every opportunity.
Actually you are not wrong about the Shadows and Vorlon messing with the younger races during the war as in both of the Vorlon's and Shadow's plans revolved around humanity.
Barry is right the Shadows found out that Babylon 4 was a Human space station sent back in time by the Vorlon's. With the Vorlon's knowing that the Human's will play a big roll in the next & last Shadow war they pushed the Minbari to meet with the Humans.The Shadow's most likely put an agent in the Earth Gov & military to make sure that Humanity wouldn't be able to help in the war to come & stop them from giving a space station to the alliance that fought against the Shadows in the past.
Except for the fact that the Shadows were still in hibernation after the last War a thousand years ago. They didn't start becoming active until later, and then it was only towards the start of the series that they really got going.
Some had to have been awake to oversee things. Yes they had trusted servants but still. Like the pentagon wouldn't trust the British upper military elite to operate the operations room in theall by themselves with some supervision even if they did allow them to operate in there at all. Theres allies and there's nativity 😀
If anyone is interested in the Dilgar War you should read the Fanwork made by Lightning Count. It's expansive and well written. I personally consider it canon.
"We surrender." "What, Oh God, yes we surrender, please stop killing us. Just name your terms." "No, *WE* surrender to you." "What? why?" "Can't say, but we offer an unconditional surrender." "ummm, okay?"
Babylon 5 has more layers than an onion, I like the way you are gradually peeling this particular onion. I can't wait till you try to unravel the enigma that is the Vorlons, speaking of Vorlons. The Vorlon who replaces Kosh is called Ulkesh, his real name was never given in the show but first revealed on a trading card. Keep up the great B5 videos
The phrase ""we are all Kosh" is a reference to the fact that the Vorlons are all telepathically linked, due to this they consider themselves to be part of the whole, like a hive mind. Keep in mind that Vorlons speak in metaphors & riddles.When B5 was still airing on UK TV I would buy any magazine that had an interview with JMS & he stated in one of these interviews that the name Ulkesh was cannon
+TentaclePentacle Everything you typed there is wrong, JMS the creator of the show stated that the second Vorlons name was Ulkesh, it's his show so he decided what is & is not canon. He also stated that he wanted to do an episode or spin off film covering what happened to Sinclair between the time he left B5 to the time he returned in season 3. He was unable to make this due to Michael O'Hare's mental health issues so he commissioned the book "to dream in the city of sorrows". When the book was released he stated that out of all of the books released this was the only one that could be considered 100% canon so what is said in that book is as official as what was in the TV series. Here's an extract from the book from when Sinclair was in a meeting on Minbar: "You, of course, know Rathenn, and delenn, and Kosh" Sinclair nodded to each of these in turn. "So let me also introduce you to the Vorlon ambassador to Minbar, Ulkesh Naranek" The first instance of Ulkesh's name being revealed was the trading cards & was officially canon, having the name used repeatedly in the canon book cemented the name's status as 100% correct. B5 did not rip off DS9, DS9 ripped off B5. Paramount had the B5 "bible" for many months before they turned the show down stating there wasn't enough room for another sci fi show on TV. The "bible" as JMS called it had descriptions of the races, characters & overall 5yr story arc, this is why the Changelings are actually a rip off of the Vorlons. Paramount used the "B5 bible" as a template for DS9. This is also why the Bajorans bore so many similarities to the Narns. They were both a peaceful & deeply religious race, they were both originally an agricultural society who got invaded & enslaved by a technologically superior race. They both pushed the invaders from their planet through acts of resistance & terrorism. They both became a more aggressive race as a result of enslavement.
If it's not on screen it's not canon. Those are the rules. Also, Straczynski retracted his accusation long ago, prompting Majel Barrett to guest star on the show as a peace offering. She open the door for B5 and DS9 to exchange actors and have gest staring roles. We all know both shows copy from each other.
You know, I am curious if you bring up how Shardian won against the Minbari cruiser, the Denta Fi. In the series, it is stated he lured a fleet of four Minbari cruisers into an asteroid field with mines and detonated, killing the ships. In the movie, it was one ship and the human ship playing dead to hit it was its only three mines. I wonder which cannon and which is fanfiction?
Ultimately I think the movie version is canon, but in my opinion the only real confirmed difference is the number of ships nothing else, as we are never told in what state Sharidans ship was at the time. So it could easily be the same as in the movie, it is just that the Mimbari from whos perspective we are told the details would not care or know in what state the his ship was, because of the result they would assume the distress call was fake, while like in the movie it could have actually be genuine.
+Ower8x Actually it makes a huge difference for it means he had more nuclear warheads then he had in the movie to take down the fleet as they the majority of warheads to take down the Black Star, and goes against what he stated in series. In that he lured the Minbari into the asteroid belt, not his ship was ambushed in the asteroid field and trick the Minbari into the mines he hastily setup while still in the asteroid belt. One makes him out to be one hell of military strategist against an advanced enemy we see him be in the series, while the other makes him more a desperate man against an enemy that is hypocritical and too arrogant then they are smart.
So I am super stoaked for this ENW video coming up! Also, I love the part in you analogy where you said “mighty Air Force”, made me smile a bit. Cheers buddy.
The story about Death Walker reminded me of how after WWII, America hired the German scientists to work for them, changed their identities and hid them from the world just for their benefits.
The narn had an economic stake in ending the war,all those devalued earth credits they were accepting would have great value if they could broker a peace .g'kar himself would benefit greatly from this not to mention the influence that the narn would have in earths affairs.they might gain a worthy ally against the centauri who abandoned earth in their time of great need.
Looking forward to your take on the Vorlons part in the War... It's been my argument for a long time the Vorlons pushed the two sides into the war... I don't want to get into spoilers as to why and you may be covering it in your videos. Hope you make 40k pretty soon... looking forward to seeing the rest of the B5 series
You couldn't be more wrong the vorlons tried to stop the war. Both kosh, the blue and the red one revealed themselves to delenn in an attempt to stop the war.
@@TentaclePentacle hey there.... I thought the same on first viewing (and second viewing)... they did help end the war... but only at the appointed time... for their agenda... *** Spoilers**** The events of the Episode "War with out end" show they knew about Earth - Mimbari war before it began... You hear Kosh's voice when Delenn chose Sinclair to be interrogated.... (In the Beginning) This made the Mimbari change track... they supported the building of the Babylon stations (all 5) The Vorlons can manipulate minds even at a Distance (G'Kar.... Sheridan etc) so I believe they manipulated the first contact event to ensure both sides acted stupidly With out the Earth - Mimbari war... -There would have been no Babylon station with out alerting the Shadows... - Sinclair would not have become Valen and helped win the previous Shadow War - Earth and the Mimbari would not have been ready for the Second Shadow war.... The unfortunate thing in the B5 universe is that the war was necessary... and it had to be brutal... the Vorlons in my opinion... made sure it was to prevent a greater Slaughter... I have a few other reasons for believing this... different things which happened through the series... I could be wrong of course and you are probably correct.... it's just a theory of mine
the vorlons didn't start the war, the war happened all due to the stupidity of humans. The vorlons just didn't stop it until they were ready to. You could say the vorlons killed Dukhat or place him in that place for the human to kill. They told dukhat about the shadows waking up, so that prompted dukhat to take a fleet and go to Z'ha'dum, and he was killed en route. Did the vorlons know this was going to happen? I have my doubts, the only one that would know about it would be sinclair, and I doubt sinclair would tell the vorlons. There would to too much risk of a timeline contamination, it would be easier if sinclair said nothing and just let everything play out as it should.
@@TentaclePentacle you are probably right in your analysis... One thing that did happen was it prompted the Rangers into a more active role after Dukatt was made aware of events and he was told to keep it quiet so as not to alert the Shadows ... this would be vital in the coming War not just in ensuring events play out as they should and events do change... Zathras getting captured in the hall not appearing in the conference room is an example, so the Vorlons needed to ensure that events would repeat as they always have... In the setting, if my theory is true, it's not necessarily an evil act by the Vorlons... to save Billions they needed to sacrifice millions (I always felt that 250k was the Battle of the Line not the whole war) just as The Humans and Mimbari did by sacrificing the Narn to the Centauri rather than have the Shadows kerb stomp them
yes the vorlons needed the events to repeat, but the vorlons don't have the power to see into the future. So they can't really force the events to happen. My take is the vorlons were inadvertently responsible for dukhat's death, but it wasn't done on purpose, they didn't know what was going to happen. All they knew was humans and minbari were joined, sinclair is valen, and valen was captured at the battle of the line. They probably did know about the human minbar war, but I doubt they knew the details.
Another way to look at portrayal of the Minbari(hmm close to Mini Bar?? hidden meaning??) is Alien = we don't have a clue how to explain this so just say ,"they are Alien, wink,wink say no more!!
The Narns played no role in the Earth - Minbari War ? Good thing the Narns didn't sell Earth weapons or anything like that since that could be construed as playing a role .
I think there could of been a better example than a nursing home, how about Custer's Last stand? The Indians was going for the last run to wipe out the pale faces, but caught one of the soldiers and Then surrendered to the morning star(the Indians nick name of Custer).
When you're such a nerd that you create your videos and you try not to spoil the series, but now for the next two decades they're going to be comments telling you that you missed this or that. Fracking nerds. That just reminded me of when there was a club for general science enthusiasm and they wanted to be called geekery, but according to the principal that was bullying or hate speech or something like that so they had to change it to beakery... I'm very paranoid about UA-cam censorship that's why I went off on this tangent.
the dvd helped with story closure and the release was something i didn't expect. over here...over there indeed :-) the writing was spot on throughout although some scenes shot were a bit "cheesy" and as such didn't really convey the moment intended i believe. thanks to the efforts of mr Straczynski & mr ellison though, we get to enjoy a mental break from the day to day that is seldom matched in the industry today. hell...what am i saying?! a video based series that has yet to meet it's match today! :-) the interactions of the different races and their consistency of patterns of them seemed more plausible and to the point than most all story lines of this genre. an astute eye for detail in even the most mundane of actions of the characters. a really pleasing level of detail for the day to day experiences of life and of how the characters deal with them.....how that shapes their decisions. "the corps is mother.....the corps is father." "We Are Everywhere For Your Convenience." also...... might i suggest 'crusade' for a way to kill a day binge watching (if by chance you haven't already)?
I would have gone with children as the subject of the analogy, but I can understand why you would want to avoid saying the military slaughters children.
I really dont know how you can say that the us was arrogant after the 2 world wars. It seems as if you really haven't studied much of the cold war or how powerful the US was both militarily and politically. Both the korean and Vietnam war were both fought defensively because Congress looked to only stop communism from spreading instead of attacking and destroying it, trying for "world peace they only hurt the military that would have wiped both north korea (and basically did) and the Viet Kong
I think, if nothing else, he was more referring to the mindset of invincibility they had after being the dominant power on the globe, as opposed to any other motivations... it would be a lot different if, say, around 1960, the USA decided to pick a fight with the warp-capable Klingon Empire - which is, in essence, what the Earth Alliance was facing in trying to contact the Minbari.
I don't think it can really be called an unconditional surrender... there were no consequences imposed, for starters, and given the things that Earth Alliance had *already* done to the Dilgar... (their extermination wasn't their doing, but even so it was pretty hardcore) it seems like it'd be more a 'capitulation', but with the understanding if the humans tried to, you know, do anything, they were still fucked. The only explanation I can think of was that it was revealed to *not* be the war of extermination it supposedly was, but everyone *says* it was, even though only a quarter million people died.
Great analogy of the war, sir.. But as I was looking at the picture of the B5 station, I can't help wondering why there were windows on the floor. B5 is cylindrical shape and rotates, i guess, to create artificial gravity. The artificial gravity is a centrifugal force from the center of the pivot radiating outward. Since the inhabitants would be standing and the direction of the force is towards their feet. Their orientation is that their head is pointed towards the center of the cylinder and their feet is towards the skin of the station. So why is he windows is on the floor?
The human death totals always seemed too low. A few hundred thousand deaths from a planet of billions is bad, but it doesn't seem to be the degree of hopelessness they were pushing in the story.
The explanation I've heard is that the Minbari wanted to eliminate all organized resistance, so that they could slaughter the rest at their leisure. Glassing the planet from orbit was too merciful, they wanted to torture every last man, woman, and child.
That was what I gathered as well, they wanted to get rid of the military first before decimating the population. Still seems bone-chillingly evil, for all the talk that Minbari seem to have of being 'enlightened'.
Rezzy +that was the number of military deaths but your right,because we had hundreds or even thousands of ships at the time of the war the death toll shouldve been about 1million or more.the hyperions alone had a crew of 450,more if they were transporting troops.
Giants in the playground it’s more like Cold War turning HOT. Picture USA and USSR with opposing ideology’s for eons lacking the will to attack directly use proxy wars like Vietnam and Afghan War to score points. Then build super weapons out of those races Vorlon telepaths and Shadows technomages for future conflicts. Only to have them turn against them and help the other side. ...... I will hold out hope for you to professionally account for B5 story the same way you do trek..... mind you I’m not as well informed on trek so who knows this just may be your way of doing stuff .
Fair point, as the humans were the new kids on the block, interstellarly speaking, and preteens would be about as powerful as geriatrics. However, the geriatrics fighting is 100x funnier, so I'll let the analogy slide. Also, having just turned 40, I'm getting closer in age to the geriatrics by the day, so I can sympathise with them a bit more now :)
Speaking of arrogance... you constantly bashing fans of every franchise who get upset when your summaries are inaccurate instead of putting more effort into improving your accuracy is really quite arrogant of you. Sure fans can be pieces of work in any franchise, but having watched the comments for your other B5 videos the general consensus isn't that you're bad for doing a simplified summary but that you are actually being inaccurate, not simplistic. I love it when B5 gets more and new attention in social media, but you alienate people when you present inaccuracies and then bash the fanbase for pointing out your mistakes. You've definitely alienated me.
DS9 had few of the best episodes of star trek and a handfull of worst. If not for Garak and Quark (And "Commander" Kira Nerys in star fleet uniform) it would have been second worst star trek series ever. Commander/Captain Sisko was one annoying cunt(not in a badass way) and Jake should have been escorted to the nearest airlock.
In the case of reality, that apparent arrogance was and is quite justified. The only wars we lose are due to subversives undermining our ability to wage them and do what is necessary to claim victory. The EA differs in that they knocked off *one* imperialistic power which was harassing races like the Drazi and others (Non-Aligned) and stupidly thought they could match forces with whoever else they encountered. The Minbari outclassed them in weapons, sensors, jump accuracy, etc. So the comparison as far as that goes falls a bit flat. The real-world parallel does not follow that we wound up being outclassed by a foe following the World Wars; we chose poor conflicts to get involved in and people back home were stirred up by forces within academia and the media into foolishly believing themselves full of civic virtue by sabotaging our ability to win.
I can see the custom of showing all guns, but not hot. That just seems like a lazy way to write a misunderstanding. It's like a cowboy opening his duster, and showing his gun and him pulling it out and pointing it at you and cocking it.,
"When they ran out of ships they used guns, when they ran out of guns they used knives, sticks and bare hands. They were magnificent. I only hope that when it is my time, I may die with HALF as much dignity as I saw in their eyes at the end. They did this for 2 years. They never ran out of courage, but they ran out of time"
Drowned the minbari in their own blood
One of my Favourite speeches.
And londo wasn't wrong. How he faced his own death and the fact the war continued, the minbari began to grudgingly respect humans.
Except John 'nuke em' Sheridan 😂
that's John star killer Sheridan.
"Only one human captain has ever survived battle with a Minbari fleet... he is behind me... you are in front of me. If you value your lives be somewhere else." That's the kind of love old star killer gets from the Minbari! Well the one he gets married to anyways.
Yeah but some of his favorite tactics was using nukes 👍
You should do a video on the dilgar war, or the great geriatric war of 2025.
Sheridan said it himself. Sometimes he truly understood Deelen sometimes she was a complete mystery to him... ok... I believe that's how all man think about woman... mhh....
James she's a woman. But a woman you would want by your side 👍
Will slaughter you if you offend them without you even knowing why?
@@casbot71
Probably because hello to the minbari was the equivalent of saying you slept with their mum.
Human officer: hello
Minbari:what, I'll kill you for that insult 😂
Okey!!!!!!!!!!!! Old people vs the military, did not see that coming.
Your analogy is spot-on about the Earth minbari War I couldn't stop laughing at the end
Thank you for doing b5 content its such a great series and I really enjoy all your videos.
Likely will never happen but would love to see some Free Space 2 lore vids-the franchise is criminally underrated.
I hope you've watched "In the Beginning" by now...
And, just a brief statement. In B5, it's not Earth's technology that impresses the various aliens in this vast story, it's humanities (indomitable spirit) that seems to be our claim to fame.
I admit I had a laugh at the geriatric war. That was a good one. I also agree a Dilgar war video would be an interesting one to do, but apparently there is not a lot of information on it. Are you planning to eventually go into ship breakdowns, like you do with Trek?
The Narn played a part, they provided weapons/tech during the war, and assisted in the set up of a failed back-channel peace meeting.
I dont disagree
Babylore 5?
On the next...
*SPOILERS*
It would be interesting if Babylon 5 included alienate realities like Star Trek and there was a mirror universe. [This maybe inaccurate in some details as it's been decades since I watched, it fact I guarantee it as I did miss a few episodes]
Instead of calling off the attack on Earth when they realise Humans have Minbari souls, the Warrior caste ignore the command, or they don't find out till much later if ever about human souls (and then it's too late, humanity will never forgive, and may well have the upper hand as I'll explain).
Earth is wiped out, humanity scatters, and then becomes the Minbari's worst nightmare as humanity goes evil with plans of biblical vengeance. Psi Corp had evacuated (perhaps they had a hyperspace base/ship even back then) and now have no oversight at all so they are hidden in some outer region, breeding super psi and using whatever reproductive tech (human and alien) they can to increase numbers and abilities. Imagine tanks full of genetically enhanced crossbreeds of the most powerful psi's, with defects removed (and variety introduced from gene banks taken off Earth before the destruction to prevent inbreeding).
There is that special forces Cyborg colony from Crusade, they would be picked up and and go with the exodus of survivors. Plus whatever other nasty human experiments and secret projects and specially trained operatives (and whatever that techno mage was in Crusade? They used shadow tech) were secreted away off world, or evacuated before the battle of the line. EarthGov expected to lose, they would have gotten their most valuable assets off world to form the core of a new Humanity far away from the Minbari.
In the aftermath human survivors lay low, find sympathisers among alien races, particularity the Narn who identify with what just happened, (because of no deal with the shadows via that old human guy, the Narn Centari conflict goes completely differently and most likely just stops or stays cold for the time being as the Shadows work on seducing Humanity)
And then humanity gets their hands on advanced alien tech (they almost did get Narn weapons before to fight the Minbari, but the Centari stuffed it up because they thought it was a Narn plot), especially if the Psi corps are running the show, cause then Humanity could use trained psi to get hold of tech and to learn how to use it and build it from stealing the skills from the minds of experts.
Humanity becomes a guerrilla race. And then the remains of humanity get involved with the shadows, who promise them revenge on the Minbari. So humans become a Shadow race, composed of the sneaky paranoid survivors of the war, with a high percentage of psi and no moral scruples at all, but still having the Human gift of making alliances, especially if they start offering service as psi for hire. It's safe to use them because using a psi from a major race is risky because it could be an attempt by that power to undermine you. Just don't let the Minbari know - assuming the Minbari are still trying to wipe out every last human and also haven't realised they just committed self genocide.
By this time the Drakh have brought a lot of Humanity to Z'ha'dum and they completely throw in with the ideology and the Shadows now have a very useful and motivated race on the team.
Next the Minbari start getting hit by Shadow ships, with human psi controllers immune to psi counterattack by Minbari telepaths.
The Minbari would be the first target, Humanity would insist on it, and the Shadows would agree as they are the greatest threat among the young races. And none of the other races would help or care, because they think the Minbari deserve it for kerbstomping a new race, that seemed nice enough. Also because they are afraid that the Minbari might take offence at them next so are relived to see them taken care of as an unstable threat, the Minbari are seen as bad guys by the rest of the galaxy.
So the Minbari get wiped out by Humanity using Shadow tech, maybe they learn by then that Humans are their own souls reborn and also that they intimidated the first Earth ship into firing by overloading their systems while displaying weapons that Humans mistook as a attack.
Then the newly formed Terra Reborn Overlord Government [ T.R.O.G. ? I really didn't think that one out…] starts rampaging as the strong right arm of the Shadows. And since Humanity doesn't have a specific homeworld that can be targeted (while Z'ha'dum is a base of operations, Humans would make sure to spread out for safety in cells) they are hard to counterattack against. The other races that are sympathetic to or done deals with Humanity join the Shadow Alliance, because now it looks like the wining team and they're offered a spot. Maybe the Narn instead of the Centari join the team, in which case goodbye Centari. Or Humanity is able to get both of them onside and they decide neither wants to be against the Human Shadow Alliance.
So the Vorlons are basically stuffed as their psi weapons are now working for the Shadows and are very bitter and possibly insane survivors of an attempted genocide.
So the Shadows win, except they just won the previous war as Sinclair doesn't take Babylon 4 back in time to help the Minbari as Valen. Paradox time, but at least the Minbari learnt a valuable and fatal lesson. As the last Minbari dies at human hands, thinking "opps, yeah, our fault", it hears the victorious human scream out it's terrifying battlecry …"Humanity, Fuck Yeah!".
Try searching on YT for star wreck in the pirkining. It's a fan made B5 vs ST spoof & considering it's fan made & a few years old now the cgi isn't too bad.
It may not be listed under its real name but turns up if you search Babylon 5 vs star trek.
The star trek universe goes down a different timeline & becomes an aggressive space race, then they go through a wormhole to B5. It's worth watching just to see the Sheridan character breaking in to a speech at every opportunity.
So glad you are doing B5 , the most underrated tv show ever. Not just sci fi either.
Good indica J with a nice wax core, sweet iced tea, and Lore Reloaded. I'm tactical.
I love you example of the war explained in the Nursing Home analogy. PRICE-LESS! LOL
That was an awesome and excellently explained description of The Earth-Minbari War in a thumbnail. Kudos!
I hope you make sure to devote some time to Michael Jankowski -- the captain of the EAS Prometheus and the one blamed for starting the war.
Don't forget the guy he ordered to pull the trigger, who was so consumed by guilt that he became a Knights Templar. In space.
+Neigh Slayer
He didn't become the knight's templar, he became King Arthur.
@@TentaclePentacle
Played by Michael York. I always felt sorry for him but glad in the end he felt some peace
That's a really good high-level analogy.
Your Earthforce Dilgar analysis was spot on.
Another awesome vid
Actually you are not wrong about the Shadows and Vorlon messing with the younger races during the war as in both of the Vorlon's and Shadow's plans revolved around humanity.
Barry is right the Shadows found out that Babylon 4 was a Human space station sent back in time by the Vorlon's. With the Vorlon's knowing that the Human's will play a big roll in the next & last Shadow war they pushed the Minbari to meet with the Humans.The Shadow's most likely put an agent in the Earth Gov & military to make sure that Humanity wouldn't be able to help in the war to come & stop them from giving a space station to the alliance that fought against the Shadows in the past.
@@joshstreet6819
Agreed
Except for the fact that the Shadows were still in hibernation after the last War a thousand years ago. They didn't start becoming active until later, and then it was only towards the start of the series that they really got going.
@@Crazael well the thousand years inbetween the two shadow wars was nicknamed the Vorlon/Shadow cold war. They were fighting basically by proxy.
Some had to have been awake to oversee things.
Yes they had trusted servants but still.
Like the pentagon wouldn't trust the British upper military elite to operate the operations room in theall by themselves with some supervision even if they did allow them to operate in there at all.
Theres allies and there's nativity 😀
The US jerriatric war was insane
Yes, when I was told the reason for the surrender I didn't know wither to laugh or weep.
Lore love your channel as you can guess 😀👍
That is, bluntly, one of the most tortured attempts at an analogy I've ever heard.
If anyone is interested in the Dilgar War you should read the Fanwork made by Lightning Count. It's expansive and well written. I personally consider it canon.
I miss my bablyon 5 VHS colection
"We surrender."
"What, Oh God, yes we surrender, please stop killing us. Just name your terms."
"No, *WE* surrender to you."
"What? why?"
"Can't say, but we offer an unconditional surrender."
"ummm, okay?"
#profit
Ridiculously underrated comment...
Babylon 5 has more layers than an onion, I like the way you are gradually peeling this particular onion.
I can't wait till you try to unravel the enigma that is the Vorlons, speaking of Vorlons. The Vorlon who replaces Kosh is called Ulkesh, his real name was never given in the show but first revealed on a trading card.
Keep up the great B5 videos
the vorlon who replaced kosh is called kosh, they are all called kosh.
The phrase ""we are all Kosh" is a reference to the fact that the Vorlons are all telepathically linked, due to this they consider themselves to be part of the whole, like a hive mind. Keep in mind that Vorlons speak in metaphors & riddles.When B5 was still airing on UK TV I would buy any magazine that had an interview with JMS & he stated in one of these interviews that the name Ulkesh was cannon
+missy prime
If it's not on screen it's not canon. But are you saying the vorlons are like the changelings in ds9. So B5 did rip off ds9.
+TentaclePentacle
Everything you typed there is wrong, JMS the creator of the show stated that the second Vorlons name was Ulkesh, it's his show so he decided what is & is not canon.
He also stated that he wanted to do an episode or spin off film covering what happened to Sinclair between the time he left B5 to the time he returned in season 3. He was unable to make this due to Michael O'Hare's mental health issues so he commissioned the book "to dream in the city of sorrows". When the book was released he stated that out of all of the books released this was the only one that could be considered 100% canon so what is said in that book is as official as what was in the TV series. Here's an extract from the book from when Sinclair was in a meeting on Minbar:
"You, of course, know Rathenn, and delenn, and Kosh"
Sinclair nodded to each of these in turn.
"So let me also introduce you to the Vorlon ambassador to Minbar, Ulkesh Naranek"
The first instance of Ulkesh's name being revealed was the trading cards & was officially canon, having the name used repeatedly in the canon book cemented the name's status as 100% correct.
B5 did not rip off DS9, DS9 ripped off B5. Paramount had the B5 "bible" for many months before they turned the show down stating there wasn't enough room for another sci fi show on TV. The "bible" as JMS called it had descriptions of the races, characters & overall 5yr story arc, this is why the Changelings are actually a rip off of the Vorlons. Paramount used the "B5 bible" as a template for DS9.
This is also why the Bajorans bore so many similarities to the Narns. They were both a peaceful & deeply religious race, they were both originally an agricultural society who got invaded & enslaved by a technologically superior race. They both pushed the invaders from their planet through acts of resistance & terrorism. They both became a more aggressive race as a result of enslavement.
If it's not on screen it's not canon. Those are the rules. Also, Straczynski retracted his accusation long ago, prompting Majel Barrett to guest star on the show as a peace offering. She open the door for B5 and DS9 to exchange actors and have gest staring roles. We all know both shows copy from each other.
You know, I am curious if you bring up how Shardian won against the Minbari cruiser, the Denta Fi. In the series, it is stated he lured a fleet of four Minbari cruisers into an asteroid field with mines and detonated, killing the ships. In the movie, it was one ship and the human ship playing dead to hit it was its only three mines. I wonder which cannon and which is fanfiction?
raw666 it’s called the Drala Fi or Black Star, not Dentari
Ultimately I think the movie version is canon, but in my opinion the only real confirmed difference is the number of ships nothing else, as we are never told in what state Sharidans ship was at the time. So it could easily be the same as in the movie, it is just that the Mimbari from whos perspective we are told the details would not care or know in what state the his ship was, because of the result they would assume the distress call was fake, while like in the movie it could have actually be genuine.
+Ower8x Actually it makes a huge difference for it means he had more nuclear warheads then he had in the movie to take down the fleet as they the majority of warheads to take down the Black Star, and goes against what he stated in series. In that he lured the Minbari into the asteroid belt, not his ship was ambushed in the asteroid field and trick the Minbari into the mines he hastily setup while still in the asteroid belt. One makes him out to be one hell of military strategist against an advanced enemy we see him be in the series, while the other makes him more a desperate man against an enemy that is hypocritical and too arrogant then they are smart.
LOL! Well, that was an interesting analogy.
Yes yes more Babylon 5
So I am super stoaked for this ENW video coming up! Also, I love the part in you analogy where you said “mighty Air Force”, made me smile a bit. Cheers buddy.
The story about Death Walker reminded me of how after WWII, America hired the German scientists to work for them, changed their identities and hid them from the world just for their benefits.
Project Paperclip...the German rocket program scientists were pivotal for the NASA program...
The narn had an economic stake in ending the war,all those devalued earth credits they were accepting would have great value if they could broker a peace .g'kar himself would benefit greatly from this not to mention the influence that the narn would have in earths affairs.they might gain a worthy ally against the centauri who abandoned earth in their time of great need.
Did you hear JMS is on board for a B5 reboot with the cw?
You got one thing wrong in your geriatric analogy, the solo geriatric attacked an aircraft carrier rather than a tank
Looking forward to your take on the Vorlons part in the War...
It's been my argument for a long time the Vorlons pushed the two sides into the war... I don't want to get into spoilers as to why and you may be covering it in your videos.
Hope you make 40k pretty soon... looking forward to seeing the rest of the B5 series
You couldn't be more wrong the vorlons tried to stop the war. Both kosh, the blue and the red one revealed themselves to delenn in an attempt to stop the war.
@@TentaclePentacle hey there.... I thought the same on first viewing (and second viewing)... they did help end the war... but only at the appointed time... for their agenda...
*** Spoilers****
The events of the Episode "War with out end" show they knew about Earth - Mimbari war before it began...
You hear Kosh's voice when Delenn chose Sinclair to be interrogated.... (In the Beginning)
This made the Mimbari change track... they supported the building of the Babylon stations (all 5)
The Vorlons can manipulate minds even at a Distance (G'Kar.... Sheridan etc) so I believe they manipulated the first contact event to ensure both sides acted stupidly
With out the Earth - Mimbari war...
-There would have been no Babylon station with out alerting the Shadows...
- Sinclair would not have become Valen and helped win the previous Shadow War
- Earth and the Mimbari would not have been ready for the Second Shadow war....
The unfortunate thing in the B5 universe is that the war was necessary... and it had to be brutal... the Vorlons in my opinion... made sure it was to prevent a greater Slaughter...
I have a few other reasons for believing this... different things which happened through the series...
I could be wrong of course and you are probably correct.... it's just a theory of mine
the vorlons didn't start the war, the war happened all due to the stupidity of humans. The vorlons just didn't stop it until they were ready to. You could say the vorlons killed Dukhat or place him in that place for the human to kill. They told dukhat about the shadows waking up, so that prompted dukhat to take a fleet and go to Z'ha'dum, and he was killed en route. Did the vorlons know this was going to happen? I have my doubts, the only one that would know about it would be sinclair, and I doubt sinclair would tell the vorlons. There would to too much risk of a timeline contamination, it would be easier if sinclair said nothing and just let everything play out as it should.
@@TentaclePentacle you are probably right in your analysis...
One thing that did happen was it prompted the Rangers into a more active role after Dukatt was made aware of events and he was told to keep it quiet so as not to alert the Shadows ... this would be vital in the coming War not just in ensuring events play out as they should and events do change... Zathras getting captured in the hall not appearing in the conference room is an example, so the Vorlons needed to ensure that events would repeat as they always have...
In the setting, if my theory is true, it's not necessarily an evil act by the Vorlons... to save Billions they needed to sacrifice millions (I always felt that 250k was the Battle of the Line not the whole war) just as The Humans and Mimbari did by sacrificing the Narn to the Centauri rather than have the Shadows kerb stomp them
yes the vorlons needed the events to repeat, but the vorlons don't have the power to see into the future. So they can't really force the events to happen. My take is the vorlons were inadvertently responsible for dukhat's death, but it wasn't done on purpose, they didn't know what was going to happen. All they knew was humans and minbari were joined, sinclair is valen, and valen was captured at the battle of the line. They probably did know about the human minbar war, but I doubt they knew the details.
What's the Sweden reference about?
It's where geriatrics go for freedom
By Valen's underwear this is a comfortable video to watch.
So,that means one of the elderly manages to kill 4 tanks and then lives to tell about it?( Orginial canon of the lexington vs.the black star)
yup
B5, best sci fi opera ever.
That was a… strange analogy.
But apt
Another way to look at portrayal of the Minbari(hmm close to Mini Bar?? hidden meaning??) is Alien = we don't have a clue how to explain this so just say ,"they are Alien, wink,wink say no more!!
The Narns played no role in the Earth - Minbari War ? Good thing the Narns didn't sell Earth weapons or anything like that since that could be construed as playing a role .
Narn supplied weapons to the humans.
Indeed
I think there could of been a better example than a nursing home, how about Custer's Last stand? The Indians was going for the last run to wipe out the pale faces, but caught one of the soldiers and Then surrendered to the morning star(the Indians nick name of Custer).
When you're such a nerd that you create your videos and you try not to spoil the series, but now for the next two decades they're going to be comments telling you that you missed this or that. Fracking nerds.
That just reminded me of when there was a club for general science enthusiasm and they wanted to be called geekery, but according to the principal that was bullying or hate speech or something like that so they had to change it to beakery... I'm very paranoid about UA-cam censorship that's why I went off on this tangent.
wtf was that nursing home analogy?
A good one
“United States... assisting and winning two world wars?”
Nah fam. They assisted us. USA USA USA
watch b5. in the beginning.
I already have
the dvd helped with story closure and the release was something i didn't expect.
over here...over there indeed :-) the writing was spot on throughout although some scenes shot were a bit "cheesy" and as such didn't really convey the moment intended i believe.
thanks to the efforts of mr Straczynski & mr ellison though, we get to enjoy a mental break from the day to day that is seldom matched in the industry today.
hell...what am i saying?! a video based series that has yet to meet it's match today! :-) the interactions of the different races and their consistency of patterns of them seemed more plausible and to the point than most all story lines of this genre. an astute eye for detail in even the most mundane of actions of the characters. a really pleasing level of detail for the day to day experiences of life and of how the characters deal with them.....how that shapes their decisions.
"the corps is mother.....the corps is father."
"We Are Everywhere For Your Convenience."
also...... might i suggest 'crusade' for a way to kill a day binge watching (if by chance you haven't already)?
I would have gone with children as the subject of the analogy, but I can understand why you would want to avoid saying the military slaughters children.
exactly.. I thought of that to and was like 'no...no..'
Who will win the Great Geriatric War? It depends.
It's a mystery
I really dont know how you can say that the us was arrogant after the 2 world wars. It seems as if you really haven't studied much of the cold war or how powerful the US was both militarily and politically. Both the korean and Vietnam war were both fought defensively because Congress looked to only stop communism from spreading instead of attacking and destroying it, trying for "world peace they only hurt the military that would have wiped both north korea (and basically did) and the Viet Kong
....k
I think, if nothing else, he was more referring to the mindset of invincibility they had after being the dominant power on the globe, as opposed to any other motivations... it would be a lot different if, say, around 1960, the USA decided to pick a fight with the warp-capable Klingon Empire - which is, in essence, what the Earth Alliance was facing in trying to contact the Minbari.
I like it that it was a surrender, and not just a white peace
And another 'unconditional one'...
I don't think it can really be called an unconditional surrender... there were no consequences imposed, for starters, and given the things that Earth Alliance had *already* done to the Dilgar... (their extermination wasn't their doing, but even so it was pretty hardcore) it seems like it'd be more a 'capitulation', but with the understanding if the humans tried to, you know, do anything, they were still fucked.
The only explanation I can think of was that it was revealed to *not* be the war of extermination it supposedly was, but everyone *says* it was, even though only a quarter million people died.
Great analogy of the war, sir..
But as I was looking at the picture of the B5 station, I can't help wondering why there were windows on the floor. B5 is cylindrical shape and rotates, i guess, to create artificial gravity. The artificial gravity is a centrifugal force from the center of the pivot radiating outward. Since the inhabitants would be standing and the direction of the force is towards their feet. Their orientation is that their head is pointed towards the center of the cylinder and their feet is towards the skin of the station. So why is he windows is on the floor?
The human death totals always seemed too low. A few hundred thousand deaths from a planet of billions is bad, but it doesn't seem to be the degree of hopelessness they were pushing in the story.
agreed
The explanation I've heard is that the Minbari wanted to eliminate all organized resistance, so that they could slaughter the rest at their leisure. Glassing the planet from orbit was too merciful, they wanted to torture every last man, woman, and child.
That was what I gathered as well, they wanted to get rid of the military first before decimating the population. Still seems bone-chillingly evil, for all the talk that Minbari seem to have of being 'enlightened'.
Rezzy +that was the number of military deaths but your right,because we had hundreds or even thousands of ships at the time of the war the death toll shouldve been about 1million or more.the hyperions alone had a crew of 450,more if they were transporting troops.
CanuckGod +seems communist,eh comrade?
Giants in the playground it’s more like Cold War turning HOT. Picture USA and USSR with opposing ideology’s for eons lacking the will to attack directly use proxy wars like Vietnam and Afghan War to score points.
Then build super weapons out of those races Vorlon telepaths and Shadows technomages for future conflicts. Only to have them turn against them and help the other side.
...... I will hold out hope for you to professionally account for B5 story the same way you do trek..... mind you I’m not as well informed on trek so who knows this just may be your way of doing stuff .
'professionally account for b5 story' - what do you mean?
Geriatrics??
Earth Alliance wouldn't have been geriatrics...they would be more Preteens with baseball bats. Otherwise, good anology
Fair point, as the humans were the new kids on the block, interstellarly speaking, and preteens would be about as powerful as geriatrics. However, the geriatrics fighting is 100x funnier, so I'll let the analogy slide. Also, having just turned 40, I'm getting closer in age to the geriatrics by the day, so I can sympathise with them a bit more now :)
You should rename this video, guy who likes to hear himself talk. There was nothing about the Earth Minbari war in your spewing.
Nah.. quite a few people got alot out of it..troll harder :)
Agreed, this video was a mess.
Nice anime pic loli girl with AK 47 and a MI-28 flying in the back
Thanks
We humans are stupid aren't we.
In the words of Londo Mollari, "Ah, arrogance and stupidity all in the same package. How efficient of you."
Never got into bab-fi. Maybe I'll give this a chance.
I tried..
Not QUANTUM enough.
babylon 5 is so quantum that it has a quantum drive where the ship jumps to QUANTUM space.
I prefer hyperspace. It's a bit more digestible, and not a catch-all term...
+Chris sonofPear
B5 does have hyper space, but they improved it with a more advanced way of travel. QUANTUM SPACE!
I know. But quantum can mean anything...
plus, you throw up sometimes.
Throwing up isn't the worst of the side effects on a first quantum jump, hope you have some spare underwear.
The geriatric analogy is way off. Normally I dont disagree with you but that was bad lol.
How? I think it was pretty apt
Speaking of arrogance... you constantly bashing fans of every franchise who get upset when your summaries are inaccurate instead of putting more effort into improving your accuracy is really quite arrogant of you.
Sure fans can be pieces of work in any franchise, but having watched the comments for your other B5 videos the general consensus isn't that you're bad for doing a simplified summary but that you are actually being inaccurate, not simplistic.
I love it when B5 gets more and new attention in social media, but you alienate people when you present inaccuracies and then bash the fanbase for pointing out your mistakes.
You've definitely alienated me.
How do you feel about people whom seem to think they know what a person is thinking? Either way...SEEYA :D thanks for trying the channel
How do you feel about acknowledging your mistakes instead of projecting your insecurities on everyone else?
Fine..since I do. I often reflect the attitude given to me, however. Are you still here? You are welcome to stay but thought you were heading out..
TREKYARDS JUMPED ON B5 BANDWAGON SUE DMCA FALSE FLAG lole
KIND OF SUSPICIOUS HOW THEY NOW ARE DOING B5 STUFF.. KIND OF SUSPICIOUS
That was a terrible analogy.
most people like it.
That was stupid.
DS9 was by far the much more superior sci-fi series!
I did try watching Babylon 5 but couldn't get into it.
It picks up a lot in early season 2, and season 3 and 4 are increasingly dramatic and interconnected.
DS9 had few of the best episodes of star trek and a handfull of worst. If not for Garak and Quark (And "Commander" Kira Nerys in star fleet uniform) it would have been second worst star trek series ever. Commander/Captain Sisko was one annoying cunt(not in a badass way) and Jake should have been escorted to the nearest airlock.
DS9 was awful the first three seasons and only improved after it abandoned traditional Trek and largely copied B5
Aaron Telford - DS9 would not be without Babylon 5.
In the case of reality, that apparent arrogance was and is quite justified. The only wars we lose are due to subversives undermining our ability to wage them and do what is necessary to claim victory. The EA differs in that they knocked off *one* imperialistic power which was harassing races like the Drazi and others (Non-Aligned) and stupidly thought they could match forces with whoever else they encountered.
The Minbari outclassed them in weapons, sensors, jump accuracy, etc. So the comparison as far as that goes falls a bit flat. The real-world parallel does not follow that we wound up being outclassed by a foe following the World Wars; we chose poor conflicts to get involved in and people back home were stirred up by forces within academia and the media into foolishly believing themselves full of civic virtue by sabotaging our ability to win.
🤬🤬🤬 kids! Get off of my lawn!!
Well, that was unhelpful and uninformative, thanks for nothing.
No problem, feel free not to come back
I can see the custom of showing all guns, but not hot. That just seems like a lazy way to write a misunderstanding. It's like a cowboy opening his duster, and showing his gun and him pulling it out and pointing it at you and cocking it.,