Here is jeremy giving a reasoned response to that guy on the other youtube channel that claims to be a tile installer. Jeremy is very knowledgeable and has credentials to back it up. ua-cam.com/video/J_d_mk93SjY/v-deo.html
Well I must admit something about that "other guy"... he sure is correct about one thing. It's really easy to demo when you install the wrong way... LMAO!!!!!! By the way, for those of you who don't know, his entire rational for not using thinset under backer board is so that it will be easy to demo in the future. Oh, and he's a dick about it to boot.
The other guy has been telling people all along to do installs incorrectly. He did say that it would be easy to remove in the future. Now who builds things that are easily removed in the future, I have always been told that it should be difficult to remove. That other guy also goes against the products instructions on doing a preslope on shower pans, he says they are not necessary. I have seen where he compares himself to you, I say not even close.
@@robteleeiii8567 Funny thing... I just demoed my upstairs bathroom to the studs. Guess what? The old porcelain tile was installed onto Hardie Board that was adhered with thinset to the wood subfloor and screwed every 8 inches. E.g. I was done correctly, though it appeared they did not leave a small gap and tape/thinset the seams. Was is "difficult" to remove? No, it was just work to remove. I busted up the tile into little pieces with a 20# jack hammer using a chisel tip (worked quickly and great). After cleaning up the tile, I handed my 15 y/o son my cordless screwdriver and told him to remove the 100+? screws (About 50 sq ft total). 30 minutes later he was done. I then pried up the backer board, which separated easily from the thinset. I had to remove a few remaining stubborn screws and was done. I still have to scrape away some old thinset, but that is easily done with a saws-all and a Spyder scraper blade. Was I cursing the original installers for doing it right? Absolutely not! I was impressed... that tile has been there for over 24 years with zero issues. At least I think it has. Does anyone know how long Hardie board has been around? I found the label on the bottom of two boards and it had the instructions on it for installation along with the name. I'm not 100% sure this tile is original to the house (built in 1994). Long story short... the excuse of doing it wrong for the sake of later demo being easier is utterly ridiculous. DO NOT listen to the "other guy" as he's giving horrible advice. Sal is the man and the "other guy" can't hold a candle to him. People that use their own personal, empirical evidence to justify doing something wrong have a screw loose. I'll take the manufacturer's instructions over that kind of advice any day.
I am installing my own tile floor with fiber rock And I didn’t think I needed thin set underneath but now I’m thinking differently Thank you so much for all of the vital information Thank you for this video. It helps out a lot to know how to do things the proper way.
I wish I had found you years ago. I have done 3 bathroom floors in my own home in years past and I have broken almost every rule mentioned here in your great video. I have failure in two baths. Because i didn't tape seams, I didn't bond the cement board to the subfloor, I used drywall screws, and now my joints are cracking. All because I was given BAD advice by people in the construction industry that I feel just simply didn't know any better.
Thank you so much. Have been so discouraged with grout failing over and over again. Cracking tiles too. I thought it was because my house is pier and beam, and on a busy road with lots of vibration from vehicles and trucks. I finally have a legitimate answer! Hate to have to remove all the tile, but at least I have concrete answers (no pun intended).
I had not planned to utilize thin set under the durarock. When I demo’d my bathroom, there was none and there were literally gaps in the sub floor an inch wide. Who does this kind of work. We have been redoing this home since buying it three years ago and although flooring wasn’t my area as a builder, I didn’t know the effects of not laying the thin set under the rock. Thanks guys. Probably saved me some heartache down the road.
That's what I did in 2009 and 2011 did my kitchen and two bathrooms. 1) Underlayment followed by (2) roof paper 30 weight stapled. (3) then thinset on roof paper before the (3) backer boards, screw these down. (4) tape all the seams and thinset these let dry. and applied thinset to place tiles. They are still holding great!! Of course back buttered the tiles.
We recently replaced a shower and had to tear out a portion of the floor. Mind you, this was the townhome the Builder had constructed for his mother. The cement board was stapled to the subfloor and easily came up. No thin-set mortar. At least the floor tile will be easy to remove!! Thanks Sal for a great video.
So glad to see this video. I had to argue with a Home Depot person who was trying to convince me that I only had to screw Hardie board down without thinset.
I am a diy girl and I always have to argue with the homedepot sales people!!! I watch at least 20 videos of different opinions and read ALL the comments and I would rather over do it than under and redo a job I have 9 kids and my husband is a busy businessman so I want to do the job 1 and done!!! I would rather spend more $ than time!! I cant get back my time lol!!! Thanks for you videos!!! I have had men get offended just because I was a woman but I have remodeled a whole house with my 17 year old daughter!!! Smh!
@@MegaMommaUlman Don't bother arguing, get what you need and leave, a sales person at a box store is the last person you want to ask for advice, unless it is to locate something in their store, and even then it will be hit or miss. I once asked one of them where a tool was, he told me they don't carry it just as I spotted it right behind him, and reached out to get the last one saying well you don't have any more now.
If you ask 3 different employees at Home Depot or Lowes the same question, you can get 3 different answers. It's on US to research and know exactly what to do to get it right. Also, I'm not quite understanding why the ditra membranes are so expensive.
Great video. I just went and looked at a small remodel project and in the main bathroom, boom!, exactly that, broken tiles along the seams. I have run into this several times over the years myself. It is too simple to find out the proper way to install most anything. Those guys make me look like a genius. Keep it up guys! 😉
Another factor that comes into play is the fastening of the subfloor. Before laying the Durock, or any type of underlayment, SCREW down the plywood 12” on center. You’d be surprised how many sheets have nails that miss the joists, are spaced too far apart, and glue that is no longer bonded between the plywood and joists.
we had thinset under our hardibacker board in 2011 when our 12x12 tile was installed. In December 2017 we started taking it up to replace it. The thinset under the hardibacker board pretty much went to dust and nothing was sticking except the screws that were used. There was still enough that attached the tile to hardibacker board. All hardibacker board and tile was taken up before installing the cement board. Floor was leveled better from the beams under the basement, and some leveling in low lieing spots on the floor before cement board was installed. What was installed over it was 6x40 plank wood look tile 1/8" grout line
The reason the thinset under the cement board turned to dust could have been caused by many things, the most common of which is installer error. That is why it is important to have a qualified installer do the job. using the right materials is one thing, knowing how to use them is another.
Most floor failures are because of floor deflection...no amount of bedding, thinset, taping or troweling will stop deflection. As a licensed contractor in several states I can tell you that L/360 is the minimum for tile work, especially in large areas, and I would suggest pulling a string line across a floor in several places and directions to see the existing deflection... if there is already existing deflection, then sister up the joists and fix them...without minimizing deflection, all else is simply wasted effort.
Any tile install worth his salt knows about L/360, there is actually an app to figure that out, no need to pull a string, wich will only tell you how much the floor is out of plain. Get a TCNA handbook, if you need to know how it us supposed to be done.
Absolutely correct I've been laying tile and marble Well over 44 years By using polyurethane seam in the seams on your pre float never had one fail yet.
Im having my tile laid on my kitchen . I wall ontop of the cement board and in some places it goes down a bit and seems loose or wiggly . Is that normal ?
Thanks Sal , Question , I'm going to be installing 1/4 Hardie backer this weekend , thin set and tape the seams , kitchen floor , I have my hardie board stored in my garage , this weekend the temp is single digit should I let the board get to room temp before thin setting and screwing it down ? will it affect the mortor setting process ? thanks .
Thanks for the video. Before beginning a diy project, I always check a few videos, even if I've done that project a few times before. On tile installations for showers, I always tape the joints with the alkali resistant mesh. I have no idea why I never thought of doing that for my floor installation. (Last tile floor was over a concrete former garage floor; that's held up great.)
Darn - just recently watched this. Just finished a small marble tile bath room about 8 months ago. Screwed down the backer board to floor (many screws - deck screws) - did put seam tape / mortar at joints. Shoot - but it seems very solid and nothing has chipped or cracked or come loose yet. My master bath - doing now is schluter and properly done (for the most part).
So natural stone need a floor with a deflection of L/720 or better, and with a double layer of plywood, plus the underlayment of choice, I prefer uncoupling membranes. Does this mean your floor will fail, well maybe, maybe not. Using proper methods and standards insures a long lasting trouble free installation, using improper methods put the install at risk, it does not mean it will certainly fail, but i does mean it increases the odds of a failure, the more the unapproved method deviates from a recognized method, the greater the chances of a failure. This means that some improperly installed tile will be certain to fail, others will have a varying percentage of failures depending on the circumstances and conditions of the install. So will your job fail at some point? No way to know, maybe it will, maybe it won't That is why it is best to follow TCNA guidelines, to insure success. I would at this point just wait and see, you may never have a problem, which is a reason why improper installs are still being done, not all of them fail, which leads the installer using improper methods to saying they have never had a problem doing it that way.
Friend of mine worked at one of the big law firms in Boston. They were replacing the large format tiles in the lobby areas. She befriended the tile guys and was able to tile her new townhouse with the “free” tiles they gave her from the demo.
So many hack jobs out there, its crazy. Doesn’t matter how long you’ve been doing it. If you’ve been taught crap you do crap. Keep up the great videos Sal! Love you channel,”.
I have about a quarter to 1/2 inch height difference over 5 foot span on floor, I need to level it out, should I put down self leveling cement first then the durarock or vise versa?
@@SalDiBlasiI’m going to self level a floor with mesh, stapled on top of tar paper. Would I still need an uncoupling membrane on top of that of good to go with tiling? Also could I use vapour barrier instead of tar paper. Feel like that would prevent any floor leveller leaking through the diagonal 1x6” subfloor.
I’m remodeling my bathroom and I’ve noticed the quality of products from Lowe’s and other big box stores is going down hill fast! I put in a bathtub that “said” it didn’t need a mortar bed underneath. It squeaked like hell. I also could have had my stringer board an 1/8 of an inch off too! I removed the tub and put thinset under it anyways and it solves that problem! Even if you know what your doing, it’s wise to seek out other information as well!
We just got a bathroom remodel done and the contractor used KeraFlor unmodified thinset over durock boards which weren't taped at the seams. 12x24 porcelain tiles. Is this setup for failure? Next is the tub alcove with durock as well and I'm trying to explain to them that alkali resistant tape, modified thinset is to be used to fill all the seams and then 2 layers of aquadefense. Will that at least keep the shower build intact?
I'm planning a tile floor on an existing subfloor of diagonal 1x8 subfloor common in older homes. Thought of using e.g. liquid nails. Now I understand that Hardie recommends a continuous thinset to place the Hardie board on. My subfloor has gaps you can see through. Should I try to put down e.g. Red Guard under the thinset and then apply the Hardie board? House is 1960s vintage. I'm tearing up the old floor/sub straight ... particle board and vinyl. I'm planning on 1/2" Hardie board as base and to bring finished floor level w/ other parts of the house.
You can't put cement board directly on dimensional plank subfloor, you need to install a layer of 1/2" plywood first, then the board. If height will become an issue, use 1/4 cement board instead, if you are still too high, use an uncoupling membrane over the plywood, which would be a much better job anyway.
thanks much for the reply. Much appreciated. I'll likely switch and deal w/ the height while using 1/4". My proposal for 1/2" cement board was to try to create a stable base. What is an "uncoupling membrane"? Red Guard, e.g.?
I had 2 layers of plywood but the floor was not level. Then I hired a carpenter to install self leveling compound. First we attached 1/2" Hardibackerboard with many screws. Then we poured selfleveler. There are a few ridges and several long hairline cracks in the concrete self leveler. My plan is to install uncoupling membrane before adding the tile. Do I need to rip the entire backerboard up & start over?! Please advise.🤔
First mistake you made was hire a carpenter to do the self leveling, second mistake you made was attaching the backer board with screws without putting thinset under it. Did you tape the seams of the backer board? I would remove everything and start over, check your joist structure to see if it meets L/360 for ceramic tile, and start from there. I don't mean to sound harsh, but it is usually a good idea to follow manufacturer recommendations.
I want to install tile over a floor that has 5/8 particle board over top 7/16 plywood over a ventilate crawl space. This is not the OSB chip board, but the very fine particle board. The particle board is in good shape, no swelling or water damage. Is there a good way to start prepping my tile base without adding a layer of plywood over the particle board? I am nervous about applying thinset directly to particle board, 'cause I know the staff does not react well to water.
@@SalDiBlasi even on a tiled section less than 5'x4'? I guess so. Paisano, I think I'm going skip it on my personal build. I need to finish the unit and get a tenant in. Later down the line, that rent money will cover it if it fails, but my budget is slim right now. Salute
Back in the 80s lathe mesh was used under tile and coated with mortar adhesive. The subfloor was 3/4 ply glued and nailed to joists. This was housing tract work and 30 years later tiles are down, grout is good. Today's builds are typically press board glued and nailed. All my tile floors are mortar coat, cement board, roofing nails, taped seam, mortar taped seam and then tile. My mortar bed on subfloor is a little wet, still stands up after troweled. Dry subfloor and applying dry cement board will suck in water. Longer to dry helps adhesion. And yes the next guy to remove this floor is not going to be happy.
First time tile job I didn't put a thin set under my hard back I don't have a problem now it's been 3 years but I'm seeing small cracks in my tile it's a mat tile witch every piece is about 2x2 and a few have cracks it's not good tile my wife walks on it with high heels I don't know if that's it or not. Question should I tear out the tile also I used Omni glue I've read some bad reports. What to do?
Your floor is failing due to improper installation. Your decision on what you should do, but if you decide to replace it, do some research and know what you need to do.
I've been tiling for 22 years now. Just started watching all the tiling videos on UA-cam about 2 months ago. I like these videos. I was into some of StarrTiles videos until I came to the one explaining why he wouldn't use mortar under his backerboard. And that's where he lost me. Before there was a few other things I disagreed with, but those things were opinionated so I let them slide. But that dude is telling people that there is no reason to glue the board down. I was like really man? Anyways thanks to people in his comment sections I found your videos. Lol
i just pulled up the old tile floor in the master bath. built in 2007 16 x 16 tiles I am thanking God they didnt glue the old 1/4 board. Something to think about, on the fence about gluing the backer.
@@SalDiBlasi Sal, tell me the reason behind gluing down backer board. not being sarcastic, i just dont know the reason why you would. i love your videos
I have a bunch of cement board scraps, any downfall to using small strips provided they are taped and thinset is used under? I plan to use them in a bathroom linen closet where there would be little (or no) foot traffic.
I have 3/4” diagonal planks on 2x8 at 12” o/c. It’s an old house built in the 1950’s. Can I install the backer board on the planks? I want to minimize the transition into the next room.
Do you need to put durarock on a cement basment floor to install tile over it ...or do you just do the dry pack to level the floor and thinset over the dry pack ... id like to do my own bathroom tiles but with so many choices im lost trying to make the best long-lasting decisions ... its a small full bathroom so id like to do it floor to ceiling in tile ... idk if i have to durarock every wall to tile them or just the main shower space ..and use gypsum to tile on ... 🤷♂️..any clarity would greatly be appreciated ..its my first house and i wanna make it nice
Yep, that is the only reason. Has jack crap to do with the backboard. I use screws and back butter my tiles and I guarantee you there's no way those tiles will come up whole. Next person will be taking a 5 lb sledge to them or getting under the backerboard with a utility bar to find a PRISTINE subfloor, unlike those that use thinset under their backer.
@@edwardallen2696 bullshit. Like I said, each tile is as if it was backed by a concrete slab 12 inches thick. I'll never see a loose tile or grout line.
I want to put wonderboard on my concrete floor in my kitchen in Texas. I live in a townhome with a small kitchen . I have already pulled up 2 or 3 layers of vinyl flooring, mostly anyhow. I have already ripped out the pantry and took it to the dump only to find out that you can hardly find 27 " wide pantries. Have of my cabinets are out and I will remove everything because I want to put down wonderboard over thinset. MY question is. Since I am putting wonderboard over concrete, How am I to screw it down? I plan on putting down porcelan tile or ceramic on top of the wonderboard if I ever get this done.
Thanks Sal very informative, thank you. Also had a question would you use latex thin set (as used to install wood floor on cement floor) on second floor. have wooden floor wanted to add latex thin set to apply 1/4" hardy back and then apply tile with latex thin set? I figure it more flexible to avoid cracking from if any movement. What do you think Thanks
A free little tip from a tile installer in MN... If you use the proper thinset for adhering the backer board to the substrate, use directional troweling, seam tape, and KEY in the back of each backer board, you have the best mold protection and surface for any tile!!!
I might take issue with that statement, the function of the mortar is to fill all voids between the substrate and the backer board, it is not to adhere the board to the surface. Seam tape is to create a monolithic plane so the floor moves as a single plain, not as individual panels. There are much better underlayments today that protect the floor in ways a backer board can never do. Not to say that it is not a good underlayment for tile, but it is quickly being supplanted by more modern technologies.
@@SalDiBlasi Really?? Does the manufacturer recommend that you only thinset the area where the boards meet??? How do you apply your ditra? I'm a little confused. I think you can prepare a floor/shower using material that is appropriate for water, weight, and moisture. I don't think anyone should recommend tiling over drywall, styrofoam (especially those shower floors, curbs, and benches). Just because something is light weight and extremely easy to do, doesn't make it the best. Schluter shower systems are a glorified DIY project for those who either can't do it correctly, or can't do it physically.
@@coreylawler4034 Let me clarify, The entire surface where the backer board is to be installed have a thinset applied to fill every void between the to, this is to be certain that the entire board is supported and there are no voids, it is called a supporting plane, or leveling bed, not a bonding bed. Then faterners are applied at the appropriate interval to attach the board to the surface. once that is done the seam tape is used to unify all the panels as one. Refer to the 2018 TCNA Handbook page 162, Method F144-18 for all the details of this method. Here is a video that explains Schluter Ditra, how it works, and how to install it ua-cam.com/video/YpXEXqbh7ok/v-deo.html I never mentioned Styrofoam, so I am going to assume you know about foam boards. You should educate yourself about newer products, see how they work and why a sealed system for a shower is much better than a vinyl liner, You can fight progress and be left behind, or you can be informed and move with it. I have been installing tile for 34 years, when i see an improvement I usually adopt it. Attend as many training events as you can, I do, I am also a member of the NTCA, I attend Covering every year and follow TCNA standards and Methods.
@@SalDiBlasi I'm very aware of how to put down a concrete based underlayment. I even like Ditra in certain situations. I'm just saying you can't just flat out say Ditra is superior to every other option because a guy with a orange hat in Vegas tells you so. So let's say I want to install a small format tile or mosaic in a shower floor. Are you telling me that putting in a styrofoam tray that is only supported by thin set is stronger than a mud bed? I know you are experienced and know what you are talking about. I'm just saying stop telling people that it's always the better option. To each their own on how they do it. I just feel that concrete based materials are more suitable for areas that receive tile than drywall and styrofoam. All showers can be waterproofed, too. Regardless of what you make it out of. Again, I'm not accusing you of doing anything incorrect. Simply saying that sometimes the all mighty schluter system is not the best choice
@@coreylawler4034 If you look at some of my videos you will see that most of my shower floors are mud that incorporate a schluter bonding flange. That being said, I have seen with my own eyes a forklift drive over a tiled Foam tray and come out unscathed. I am not saying that Ditra is better, I am saying that an uncoupling membrane, be it Ditra, Startamat, Mapigard um, Flexbone or whatever, is superior to a cement backer board, because, it is, in almost all cases. A feeling does not constitute fact. Look at the testing, look at the results, look at the science behind it. A liquid applied waterproofing membrane does not have the same perm rating as a sheet membrane or a foam board. I know you're not accusing me of anything, and I am not saying that old methods don't work. We are having a discussion on the methods we like to use and the benefits of each. Cement board is a force conductive assembly, and cement board has no structural value. Any movement under the board will be transferred to the tile. Uncoupling membranes also have no structural value, but they are a non force conductive assemblies, movement under the membrane will not be transferred, along with many other benefits a cement board can't provide. This type of discussion was also had when Cement board was first introduced, mud was king, cement board was garbage, I use to do whole kitchen floors in mud, am I glad those days are over for me. I have installed thousands upon thousands of sheets of backer board, I moved forward then. now uncoupling membranes are proliferating, so I now use those. I try to advance, I evaluate new products and methods, find out the facts, advance with the good, ignore the bad. for me, to just dismiss an advancement as bad because you feel the old is better is your choice, and I have no problem with that. You stated in your very first comment that backer board was the best, I disagreed with you and then you continue to try to convince me otherwise. You have not convinced me, and probably won't, like I said, a feeling is not a convincing argument.
Great channel Sal thanks. I solely now use Shluter product for floors walls and countertops. The results are over the top as a pallet is created for the finished product. My Brother inlaw called me up and said the grout was cracking. on his floor tiling job . I went to have a look and found that he used zero thinnest to adhere shluter ditra to subfloor. He bought the ditra from a home improvement store. The sales person told him that you don't need to adhere the product to the subfloor. The mistake cost a small fortune. Note to the home handyman...certainly do your homework before tackling the job. Check out Sals videos, manufacture product videos. BTW shluters technical support team are second to none.
It is not enough to buy the best products, you still have to install them correctly to have a great install, as you know and as your Brother-in-law has now discovered.
As you move south and west it gets worse. The only is it comes up easy. Heart breaks for people who trusted these individuals. It's how I got started 20 years ago doing a mryaid of repairs and finish sub par contractor work. I still learning the tile trade. Ahhh I only do very small jobs with research.
I have a concrete floor section that needs to be tiled. I have removed the existing tile however I need the base layer ot be raised, I wanted to put cement board on the concrete (with thinset of course) in order to get the additional 1/4 inch in height that i need to match up to another flooring height at a different room. Is it okay to put cement board on concrete? If not, what are my options for getting the extra build up in height?
I see sometimes thin set breaks down and does not set hard. Would it not be better to use liquid nails or some kind of tacky liquid to put on the floor and then install backer board and when backer board is used over plywood subfloor would it not be better to put the same tacky liquid on the tile so you get a good stick and level stick? It seems that the thin set just does not hold tight and firm.
Sure if you want to disregard manufacturer recommendations, TCNA methods and ANSI standards. You can do it that way and then rip it out a couple of years later when it has failed and do it the right way.
My kitchen is suffering the same defect. When I go to demo the non-bedded backer board what is the best way to get it up without tearing my OSB subfloor apart? I was thinking a stud finding magnet would help me locate the screws maybe? Maybe an oscillating blade?
Hi Sal, I'm doing a small tile for my bathroom. The subfloor is not completely leveled,can I use self leveling compound, then, backer board or just straight tiles over self level compound?
Been laying floors for 18 years and have never put mortar under the backer board like some say to do , I have never had this happened but have seen it happen and it always has Stemmed from it either being shity knock off brand mortar or it was installed when it remained super cold in a new constructed house with new central heat and air her room warm the house the tiles won’t bond to the mortar and pop easy like so
Would liquid nails heavy duty rated for cement and wood spread with v notch then screwed hold? It seems like it would but i am not 100% which is why i ask
Do not use anything other than the recommended products, the thinset is not for adhesion as much as it is to have a leveling bed to fully support the cement board.
I recently had this argument with a contractor. I was installing hardy backer on a subfloor to install ceramic tiles over it. The contractor walked in and said I didn't need to put mortar under the hardy backer board nor tape the seams. After arguing with him for a few minutes I brought up the hardy backer website and showed him the manufacturer's installation instructions. He said it was a waste of time and money and walked away. Mind you I am a DIY, I am not a contractor. I was just doing a good friend a favor. This contractor was hired by him to install a new wall on a bathroom that had a hidden leak and some of the floor joists were damaged. Needless to say I had to tear up the contractors work and redo it myself with my son's help. The contractor never tied the wall to the joists and the outside wall was left dangling. Unfortunately he walked away with my friend's money. But we fixed it right. He also did not level the floor and we had to use leveling cement mix to level the floor before doing the tiles. I have learned a lot from you Sal. I really enjoy your videos. God bless people like you that are willing to share your knowledge with the rest of us.
Those that think they know more than the people that design test and produce the products, like that contractor, are a burden to us all. Always follow manufacturer recommendations, and industry standards for a trouble free long lasting installation. You were obviously more professional then that contractor.
Every tile installer who defends not bedding tile backer into thinset always brings up tile removal. Why? Most people want the tile to stay down and remain free of cracks. Sure, you can play roulette and not use thinset under backer board, but considering how simple and easy it is to apply, why take that risk?
henryher true, contractors only want to do things the way that they've been taught but timed have changed you can watch videos online on youtube that are up to date with latest technology! and that's better than anything a contractor can offer
Hey Sal You should to the house that now has a new tile install and jump up and down in the middle of the room and count the cracks and broken tiles. Those cracks in between the backer boards were massive. That floor is a trampoline. I'm not a contractor and my dumbass figured this out when you missed it.
So you can tell if a floor is compliant just by looking at it, I measure the joists structure and unsupported span so i know whether it meets L/360 required for ceramic tile. You seem to be right about the Dumbass part.
Hi from Maine, Another informative video, thanks! My 15 x 15 ceramic-tiled kitchen floor failed after 2 years. It has a 12-foot jagged crack across the floor. The installer did NOT put thin-set under the tile. Could that have caused such a drastic result?
Great video! I’m installing 12x24” porcelain tiles in my bathroom. I have 3/4” OSB subfloor. Is this thick enough to lay cement board or do I need to add more plywood before putting down the cement board? I keep hearing that the subfloor needs to be 1-1/4” total but I don’t know if that includes the cement board thickness or not.
@@FromTheHood2TheWoods - I ended up going with Blanke Permat underlayment sheets instead of cement board. It was more expensive, but I think it provided a stronger surface to lay the tile on. The sheets were very easy to cut/install and it seems to be pretty solid. I guess time will tell, but I’m happy with the results so far.
I'm want to install a tile floor in my breezeway. The subfloor is a concrete slab. I took the old tile up and there is a thin layer old black mastic. I don't want to scrape that stuff up because I herd it may have asbestos in it. I was thinking of putting a layer hardiebacker down and then tile. Do you think the thinset will bond to the old black mastic?
The mortar under the backer board is a leveling bed, essentially that means it is there to fill all the voids between the subfloor and the backer board to insure there is no movement between the two. The board is held in place by the fasteners. That being said, you can use Mapei Eco Prim Grip amzn.to/2U9bYLS to coat the black adhesive, which is probably CutBack adhesive. The Prim grip will bond to the black adhesive and give you a suitable surface to install your underlayment in preparation for your tile. Here is an article about Cutback inspectapedia.com/hazmat/Floor_Tile_Mastic_Asbestos.php
@@SalDiBlasi I just got off the phone with the tech department for permabase. He told me that going over the linoleum is not approved. Guess I'll be ripping up the linoleum.
Can we install ceramic tiles over the tar or glue residue after removing the vinyl tiles on a concrete floor. I am avoiding removing the tar or glue with chemicals so it will not affect the concrete surface for bonding with the thin set
You can coat it with a Bond promoting primer like Mapei ECO Prim Grip read and understand the directions carefully, www.mapei.com/public/CA/products/6324_ECO_Prim_Grip_EN_lr.pdf or it needs to be mechanically removed by a grinder or shot blast. Just a word of caution, the tar residue may be Cutback and may contain asbestos, there is no way to know if the cutback does unless you have it tested.
Can you use construction adhesive instead of mortar/thin set? My floor is a sub floor that is rock solid and very flat. I just yanked up the linoleum (very little glue underneath) and was about to put the 1/4 Hardy board in with the screws it goes with thinking that would be plenty to keep it stable. I guess I'll rethink this.
No big mistake, the mortar is a leveling bed to insure full contact of the board to eliminate all voids and possibility of movement, the construction adhesive does the exact opposite of what you want.
How much of a big deal is it if non-corrosion-resistant screws were used in fiber cement board? Does it matter if the room is large or small? We have a tiler in the middle of a job right now on 2 smaller bathroom floors - he used non corrosion resistant screw on one, some of the nails on the other floor are sticking up, not sure that he used tape (doesn't appear that he did) and there are gaps under the tiles. I'm hearing from one person that its bc he had to use a lot of mortar to level the floor, but I don't know what to think about this. I just don't want my tiles to fail. Thanks. Wish I could share photos.
That’s exactly what my kitchen floor looks like underneath. Previous home owner was a DIYer and half-assed a lot of work. Fortunately it’s a small house, but I have had to fix a lot of shoddy work.
No back buttering, the thinset is not there to bond the backerboard to the subfloor, but to give full support to the board with no air gaps, most cases a 1/4x1/4x1/4 square notch trowel is called for. Make sure you tape all seams with an alkali resistant mesh tape, very important.
I’ve done a few home projects I’m not a professional. I screwed wonderboard down following all screw markings and using the approved screws. No thinset between ply. I taped and motored seems and laid tile into motor and apply a fair amount also to tile to cover it completely. I feel no movement or sage. The floor is strong and zero cracking. I have a larger area to do in my new home and I’m apprehensive to thinset the ply because in 15 years when the style changes and I want to remove, the subfloor ply will be caked in thinset and will be impossible to remove properly. Are there any alternatives? I also lay tiles in a staggered pattern so that the tile seems don’t run a long span. I lay a tile row and then offset the next row half on Centre. Any advice will be greatly appreciated.
No one is compelling you to install the Backer board according to TCNA standards, and manufacturer recommendation,what do they know anyway, they only design, research and test the products, doing it their way is a waste of time and effort, a gut feeling is a better standard to follow. Temporary is good, easy to remove something designed to be permanent makes more sense, if it falls apart, it will come right up. Look into Ardex FlexBone 720, if you really want to do it the right way and have it removable at some point without compromising quality and durability.
Sal DiBlasi thank you for the reply. With this ardex not being fastened or cemented to the subfloor how is it better than using wonderboard that is screwed down?
Backerboard is designed to be used according to manufacturer recommendations, which means a leveling bed of thinset has to be under it, and the seams have to be taped and the fasteners have to be installed at the proper intervals. All the components have to be there for it to work as designed. Flexbone 720 is designed to be a floating system which is not attached to the subfloor. Use one and modify the system, or use the other as designed. One is designed and engineered to float, the other is not.
Can anybody think of a reason I shouldn't use Kerdi-band to seal up my 1/4 hardiebacker floor seams? I have quite a bit left over from a previous project. Thanks for any input.
I agree you must thinset the backerboard down but it seems to me the problem in that job was an adhesion problem. The tiles didn't adhere or bond to the thinset. The installer didn't get the proper thinset coverage under the tile. He should've watched your videos lol
Sal DiBlasi what kind of thinset can I use under the cement board? I removed the old tile in my bathroom (sub floor plywood) in 2 days, including the durock, was a mess, lot of dust (silica) and Damage a little be the plywood, so I am a homeowner trying to do the best. Please let me know what kind of thinset (white or gray) I can use, thank you Sal.
Hey Sal I'm installing 1/2" wonderboard over 2 sheets of 1/2" overlapped OSB sheathing. I don't feel comfortable installing wet thinset under the wonderboard to the OSB. If I nailed 30lb felt over the OSB protecting it from moisture and then installed the thinset and wonderboard with screws every 6". Do you see any harm in that? Also I'm installing 400 sq. ft. of 10"x47" plank tile.
Wonderboard requires the leveling bed of thinset when installed on a floor, not doing that goes against what they say, modifying that goes against what they say, they are very clear about it, as are all the manufacturers of similar products. There is no reason to use 1/2" on the floor instead of the 1/4", Cement board has no structural value so using the 1/2" has no benefit unless you need the height. If you want to modify the application, it is best to contact the manufacturer, if they say yes, then you are good to go, if they say no, then proceed at your own risk.
Hello , great video.I'd love some advice. Im remodeling my kitchen and laying tile and hired a remodeler. The plywood is laid and the cement board is nailed right on top nothing in between. No glue no nothing. That was done today. As we walk across the floor theres some place where the floor feels wobbly or as if it sinks. I was told that that dosent matter cause on top will go a layer of cement. Is that normal ?
First thing that should have been done is to check the deflection of the floor by looking at the joist structure. here is a video ua-cam.com/video/74BDTI67S1M/v-deo.html If the deflection is good, then should see if the subfloor is in good condition and the correct thickness and suitable for a tile floor installation. That being good, the cement board should be installed according to manufacturer recommendations, which includes a leveling bed of mortar under the cement board to support the board and fill all voids here is a link to Durock installation guide, www.usg.com/content/dam/USG_Marketing_Communications/united_states/product_promotional_materials/finished_assets/usg-durock-cement-board-with-edgeguard-installation-guide-en-CB237EG.pdf other brands basically have the same requirements. Cement board has no structural value, if the tell you it will stiffen the floor, it does not.
I have a 110 year old house that we removed 5 layers of flooring to replace with tile. There are a few places where due to age the floor has a few inconsistencies. It has been suggested to float thinset under to backerboard to make it flat. Is this a reasonable idea?
The only time you need to tape and mud the seams on a floor is if the tile doesn't overlap the seam 3 inches or more .And i never put thinset under the backer board, I put 2 inch screws on the joist every 6 inches and I put 1.250 inch screws in between the joists every 8 inches. I've never had a problem in 12 years.
Thanks for this I wished you lived near me Berkeley IL. I would like to do my kitchen floor over and bathroom over. I'm going to do this. This helped me a lot. Thanks, Sir.
I have 3 Season Square Log Cottage in Canadian climate (large garage area underneath), has OSB T&G flooring, so want to lay porcelain Italian tiles at high traffic entranceway (40sq ft). Do you recommend cement board or Schluter system as underlayment ? And thanks for very helpful tips/solid videos
I am installing new kitchen cabinets and plan on using 24"X6" tile for countertop. Do you think a single sheet of 3/4" (good grade) and 1/4" BackerBoard with Thin set in between is adequate substrate for time choice? Small kitchen only about 26 square feet total countertop? Thank you! You are awesome!
No, I would use a double layer of plywood, 3/4" plus 1/2" then the backer board or an uncoupling membrane. Or you can use a thick foam board like Kerdi-Board as your substrate.
Sal DiBlasi Sal, that is exactly guidance i needed! Definitely will use backer-board or the other product for substrate (Is it sold in big box lumber stores i.e. Home Depot or Lowe’s?). My struggle has been if 3/4” was adequate which big box employees said yes but wasn’t comfortable or confident in what they where telling me - my reason for reaching out to you! I will feel much better knowing need to include sheet of 1/2” plywood on top of 3/4”! I know you’re busy but one more question; Does the 2 sheets of plywood need to be good quality BC (or whatever is smooth on one side) or like expensive smooth cabinet grade plywood i.e. oak, maple, etc.? Sal, Thank you so much for your quick and professional response with info i know i can trust!!! Allen Portman Houston, Texas
When i started we had screw nails, i thought they were so cool. I remember sitting with grandpa saying theres nothing to do..sat me at the anvil with a cookie tin of bent nails, told me how to hammer them straight so we could reuse them. Great times.
would adding an uncoupling membrane over cement backer board prevent cracking? I notice they encourage one or the other but why cant you use both cement backer board and uncoupling membrane as well?
Thanks, this is very helpful, as I am about ready to lay a tile floor. Once the cement board is down with thin set should I also seal it with a latex primer sealer after taping and mortaring the joints?
Im getting ready to lay tile on cement board that I didnt thinset down, but screwed with drywall screws. Should I even bother taping seams? Not going to pull it all up to thinset it, will also be back buttering the tiles and laying on straight troweled thinset. This is in an old apartment building. Will definitely be thinsetting the board down next time. This is also down over laminate floor, maybe will add some strength underneath. Feeling like a hack now, though this is how I was told to do it.
I would start from scratch, you know it is wrong, it will probably fail at some point, question is, will it be weeks months or years. Roll the dice see what happens, maybe you will get lucky, but don't count on it.
Thanks for the quick response. I really should pull it up and redo it but other apartments have been tiled by the same guy that told me how I should do it and those floors are fine. Next time will do it right, will take the chance this time, its on the guy who said how to do it but of course dont look good on me either.
Just had to chisel up some tile around a 220v external stove receptacle that sits on the floor, this tile guy tiled around it making it impossible to plug the stove cord. He also did the same around the baseboards instead of pulling them off. lol.
We have just replaced our kitchen floor and adding tile. The tile itself is like 36" long and 9" wide. I have one piece that will not set. One end of it seems to not dry. Pulled that piece up and scraped the stuff off it and cement board and redid. Still taking forever to dry. Can't figure out why.
My problem - what do I do now I thought the leveling should have been done before the tiling process began he used thinset to level the floor as he placed the tiles 12 x 24 on top when I saw this I was so surprised after he left I measured 1 and 1/4 inch of thinset that measurement also includes the porcelain tile furthermore he did put the Hardie backer board down first with nails and thinset the job is now 3/4's done what are the dangers of leaving the 1 1/4" of thinset under the tiles? or should I have them start over and do it right what should I do???? Please help!
That is your decision on what to do, however thinset is an adhesive meant to be used only at limited thicknesses. Depending on what kind they used, the bond coat should never be more than 3/8", or at most 1/2", and that is pushing it.
@@SalDiBlasi thank you so much for responding back he used MAPEI PORCELAIN TILE MORTAR I do understand that the decision is mine but I wanted to know if you can give me the cons of leaving 1 1/4" thinset please?
@@gogo81k Used beyond the recommended bond coat thickness, the adhesive will shrink and pull away leaving a poorly bonded tile. Leveling should always be done before the tile is installed to have a flat surface to set tile. The products used for leveling and patching are designed to work at much thicker applications. Thinset is an adhesive designed to work in a very specific and limited range.
@@SalDiBlasi My gut feeling is telling me to have him remove the tiles and properly level the floor using the correct materials to do so. But the flip side is I really don't want him to that cause he may mess that up too. Although the tiles do look visually nice if the foundation is wrong I believe I would have problems. I justed wanted some facts to present to him that the tiles were laid wrong. I waited so long to get this project up and running I feel very sad and disappointed!!!
Hi i want to remove carpet in my living room and install tile or stone my house is water floor heating so in order for the tile to stay firm does not get crack later i want to install backer board and use tap so i should use thinset than backer board and then thinset and tile on the top please correct me if i wrong thanks
Most helpful tile video I’ve seen, thank you. Would like to request your opinion on issues I’m experiencing in my kitchen. My 1 year-old install has numerous hollow-sounding tiles, some grout bursting from seams, hairline grout cracks everywhere, some cracked tiles, and some tiles make a crunching sound under pressure. I witnessed the install and confirmed correct mortar and trowel compatibility with the tile. 1/2” hardybacker mortared & screwed to plywood subfloor (2nd level of home), seams taped. At least 1/4” gaps between at all mating walls/cabinets. Some tiles seem solid (but still with grout cracks), and noisy symptoms go away in the winter. My theory - unlevel floor in some areas, not enough thinset in others, perhaps swirling trowel lines, and more expansion gaps needed? My current plan is to remove offending tiles, level mortar beneath, and reapply tiles. Any insight would be appreciated. Best regards!
Sounds like the floor has failed completely, There are other possible causes that could have contributed to the failure of your floor, but those that you mentioned are all very possible. I would suggest replacing the entire floor. in my experience popping tiles and cementing them back down will not solve your problem and will be a never ending task as the floor continues to deteriorate. I would also evaluate the floor structure to be sure that it meets L/360 for porcelain tile, if it does not, replacing the tile will lead to another failure.
Hi Sal, Thank you for the very informative video. I hope that even though this is a few years old I will get a response. I am in process of redoing my small 1960's bathroom. I took up 1960's mosaic type floor tile and discovered a few things that I have questions about, hoping you can offer solutions. 1) The paper backing with the small holes that held the tiles together, along with grout lines seems to be a permanent part of the underlayment. Can thinset be applied over this to successfully bond the backer board? (1/4" backer). If not, any suggestions on how to remove it? I was thinking a wire brush on a drill. 2) The underlayment is 50% plywood by the toilet and tub and 50% particle board from the middle to the opposite wall to the vanity. The particle board is under where the vanity is going, and extends to the entry area, almost half way into the room. I read that particle board does not hold screws well, so I thought to use longer backer board screws to pass through the particle board and fasten to the plywood subfloor. Is this ok? 3) At the seam where the particle board meets the plywood there are many , many nails (rusted heads) in about a 2 ft strip of the particle board. My guess is that it was not level or it may have swelled at installation and it was beat down with all the nails to make it even with the plywood. There is no joist below this seam so all the nails are going into the subfloor. My first thought was to tear it all out, but then I read that the particle board could be glued and it will be a nightmare to remove. I am concerned that one or more of these nails may decide to move. Can I seal the particle board and nail heads and then use thinset and durock over it all? Thank you in advance for your thoughts and suggestions.
Sal, need your input sir. My kitchen has 3/4" OSB, then 1/4" plywood with linoleum on top. Is there any way I can avoid removing the linoleum? It's not peeling or punctured anywhere.
Here is jeremy giving a reasoned response to that guy on the other youtube channel that claims to be a tile installer. Jeremy is very knowledgeable and has credentials to back it up. ua-cam.com/video/J_d_mk93SjY/v-deo.html
i also though so.
Well I must admit something about that "other guy"... he sure is correct about one thing. It's really easy to demo when you install the wrong way... LMAO!!!!!! By the way, for those of you who don't know, his entire rational for not using thinset under backer board is so that it will be easy to demo in the future. Oh, and he's a dick about it to boot.
The other guy has been telling people all along to do installs incorrectly. He did say that it would be easy to remove in the future. Now who builds things that are easily removed in the future, I have always been told that it should be difficult to remove. That other guy also goes against the products instructions on doing a preslope on shower pans, he says they are not necessary. I have seen where he compares himself to you, I say not even close.
@@robteleeiii8567 Funny thing... I just demoed my upstairs bathroom to the studs. Guess what? The old porcelain tile was installed onto Hardie Board that was adhered with thinset to the wood subfloor and screwed every 8 inches. E.g. I was done correctly, though it appeared they did not leave a small gap and tape/thinset the seams. Was is "difficult" to remove? No, it was just work to remove. I busted up the tile into little pieces with a 20# jack hammer using a chisel tip (worked quickly and great). After cleaning up the tile, I handed my 15 y/o son my cordless screwdriver and told him to remove the 100+? screws (About 50 sq ft total). 30 minutes later he was done. I then pried up the backer board, which separated easily from the thinset. I had to remove a few remaining stubborn screws and was done. I still have to scrape away some old thinset, but that is easily done with a saws-all and a Spyder scraper blade.
Was I cursing the original installers for doing it right? Absolutely not! I was impressed... that tile has been there for over 24 years with zero issues. At least I think it has. Does anyone know how long Hardie board has been around? I found the label on the bottom of two boards and it had the instructions on it for installation along with the name. I'm not 100% sure this tile is original to the house (built in 1994).
Long story short... the excuse of doing it wrong for the sake of later demo being easier is utterly ridiculous. DO NOT listen to the "other guy" as he's giving horrible advice. Sal is the man and the "other guy" can't hold a candle to him. People that use their own personal, empirical evidence to justify doing something wrong have a screw loose. I'll take the manufacturer's instructions over that kind of advice any day.
@@kenhoward127 excellent reply there Ken, Sal should be proud. Lol.
I am installing my own tile floor with fiber rock
And I didn’t think I needed thin set underneath but now I’m thinking differently
Thank you so much for all of the vital information
Thank you for this video. It helps out a lot to know how to do things the proper way.
I wish I had found you years ago. I have done 3 bathroom floors in my own home in years past and I have broken almost every rule mentioned here in your great video. I have failure in two baths. Because i didn't tape seams, I didn't bond the cement board to the subfloor, I used drywall screws, and now my joints are cracking. All because I was given BAD advice by people in the construction industry that I feel just simply didn't know any better.
Very common story.
Thank you so much. Have been so discouraged with grout failing over and over again. Cracking tiles too. I thought it was because my house is pier and beam, and on a busy road with lots of vibration from vehicles and trucks. I finally have a legitimate answer! Hate to have to remove all the tile, but at least I have concrete answers (no pun intended).
I had not planned to utilize thin set under the durarock. When I demo’d my bathroom, there was none and there were literally gaps in the sub floor an inch wide. Who does this kind of work. We have been redoing this home since buying it three years ago and although flooring wasn’t my area as a builder, I didn’t know the effects of not laying the thin set under the rock. Thanks guys. Probably saved me some heartache down the road.
Thanks, glad it helped
That's what I did in 2009 and 2011 did my kitchen and two bathrooms. 1) Underlayment followed by (2) roof paper 30 weight stapled. (3) then thinset on roof paper before the (3) backer boards, screw these down. (4) tape all the seams and thinset these let dry. and applied thinset to place tiles. They are still holding great!! Of course back buttered the tiles.
just getting ready to do some floors, so glad I watch this, I was not going to do the thin set ...now I am. Can Not hurt
We recently replaced a shower and had to tear out a portion of the floor. Mind you, this was the townhome the Builder had constructed for his mother. The cement board was stapled to the subfloor and easily came up. No thin-set mortar. At least the floor tile will be easy to remove!! Thanks Sal for a great video.
Thanks Jeff, and yet there are those that promote doing it the wrong way.
Shame, once cement board is adhered with thin-set it's so much more solid.
It is always better to do it the right way, we both know that.
Yes, couldn't agree more. This year we'll be highlighting more of the CTEF, TCNA, and TCNA standards in videos.
Great, the more they are promoted, the better.
So glad to see this video. I had to argue with a Home Depot person who was trying to convince me that I only had to screw Hardie board down without thinset.
That was your first mistake, listening to a sales person in a box store.
I am a diy girl and I always have to argue with the homedepot sales people!!! I watch at least 20 videos of different opinions and read ALL the comments and I would rather over do it than under and redo a job I have 9 kids and my husband is a busy businessman so I want to do the job 1 and done!!!
I would rather spend more $ than time!! I cant get back my time lol!!! Thanks for you videos!!!
I have had men get offended just because I was a woman but I have remodeled a whole house with my 17 year old daughter!!! Smh!
@@MegaMommaUlman Don't bother arguing, get what you need and leave, a sales person at a box store is the last person you want to ask for advice, unless it is to locate something in their store, and even then it will be hit or miss. I once asked one of them where a tool was, he told me they don't carry it just as I spotted it right behind him, and reached out to get the last one saying well you don't have any more now.
If you ask 3 different employees at Home Depot or Lowes the same question, you can get 3 different answers. It's on US to research and know exactly what to do to get it right. Also, I'm not quite understanding why the ditra membranes are so expensive.
Great video. I just went and looked at a small remodel project and in the main bathroom, boom!, exactly that, broken tiles along the seams. I have run into this several times over the years myself. It is too simple to find out the proper way to install most anything. Those guys make me look like a genius. Keep it up guys! 😉
Plenty of training and education available, but not enough qualified installers that seek it out.
Love videos like this, to many guy’s that don’t thinset the board down. It’s mandatory
Thanks for watching my video.
Another factor that comes into play is the fastening of the subfloor. Before laying the Durock, or any type of underlayment, SCREW down the plywood 12” on center. You’d be surprised how many sheets have nails that miss the joists, are spaced too far apart, and glue that is no longer bonded between the plywood and joists.
Good point.
we had thinset under our hardibacker board in 2011 when our 12x12 tile was installed. In December 2017 we started taking it up to replace it. The thinset under the hardibacker board pretty much went to dust and nothing was sticking except the screws that were used. There was still enough that attached the tile to hardibacker board. All hardibacker board and tile was taken up before installing the cement board. Floor was leveled better from the beams under the basement, and some leveling in low lieing spots on the floor before cement board was installed. What was installed over it was 6x40 plank wood look tile 1/8" grout line
The reason the thinset under the cement board turned to dust could have been caused by many things, the most common of which is installer error. That is why it is important to have a qualified installer do the job. using the right materials is one thing, knowing how to use them is another.
Most floor failures are because of floor deflection...no amount of bedding, thinset, taping or troweling will stop deflection. As a licensed contractor in several states I can tell you that L/360 is the minimum for tile work, especially in large areas, and I would suggest pulling a string line across a floor in several places and directions to see the existing deflection... if there is already existing deflection, then sister up the joists and fix them...without minimizing deflection, all else is simply wasted effort.
Any tile install worth his salt knows about L/360, there is actually an app to figure that out, no need to pull a string, wich will only tell you how much the floor is out of plain. Get a TCNA handbook, if you need to know how it us supposed to be done.
Watch out for inferior subfloor. Some builders cheap out on it, don’t use enough fasteners, and overspan the decking sheet goods
I like to check things out with a good ol anckle bouce. Been in some nice houses that are springy out in the middle of the greatrm.
Absolutely correct I've been laying tile and marble Well over 44 years By using polyurethane seam in the seams on your pre float never had one fail yet.
Im having my tile laid on my kitchen . I wall ontop of the cement board and in some places it goes down a bit and seems loose or wiggly . Is that normal ?
Thanks Sal , Question , I'm going to be installing 1/4 Hardie backer this weekend , thin set and tape the seams , kitchen floor , I have my hardie board stored in my garage , this weekend the temp is single digit should I let the board get to room temp before thin setting and screwing it down ? will it affect the mortor setting process ? thanks .
Yes, always ambient temperature for all materials.
Great video! Love the oft repeated phrase, "Follow the manufacturer's directions" :)
Thanks for the video. Before beginning a diy project, I always check a few videos, even if I've done that project a few times before. On tile installations for showers, I always tape the joints with the alkali resistant mesh. I have no idea why I never thought of doing that for my floor installation. (Last tile floor was over a concrete former garage floor; that's held up great.)
It is always a good idea to try and update the knowledge you have, to see if there is something new or something you missed.
Darn - just recently watched this. Just finished a small marble tile bath room about 8 months ago. Screwed down the backer board to floor (many screws - deck screws) - did put seam tape / mortar at joints. Shoot - but it seems very solid and nothing has chipped or cracked or come loose yet.
My master bath - doing now is schluter and properly done (for the most part).
So natural stone need a floor with a deflection of L/720 or better, and with a double layer of plywood, plus the underlayment of choice, I prefer uncoupling membranes. Does this mean your floor will fail, well maybe, maybe not. Using proper methods and standards insures a long lasting trouble free installation, using improper methods put the install at risk, it does not mean it will certainly fail, but i does mean it increases the odds of a failure, the more the unapproved method deviates from a recognized method, the greater the chances of a failure. This means that some improperly installed tile will be certain to fail, others will have a varying percentage of failures depending on the circumstances and conditions of the install. So will your job fail at some point? No way to know, maybe it will, maybe it won't That is why it is best to follow TCNA guidelines, to insure success. I would at this point just wait and see, you may never have a problem, which is a reason why improper installs are still being done, not all of them fail, which leads the installer using improper methods to saying they have never had a problem doing it that way.
one nice thing bout that type of installation is... It's a dream to demo....
Yeah and you can even resell the old tiles to make some of your money back XD
Doknow I would go there... maybe fill in a swiminpool or somethin.
LOL..
Friend of mine worked at one of the big law firms in Boston. They were replacing the large format tiles in the lobby areas. She befriended the tile guys and was able to tile her new townhouse with the “free” tiles they gave her from the demo.
So many hack jobs out there, its crazy. Doesn’t matter how long you’ve been doing it. If you’ve been taught crap you do crap. Keep up the great videos Sal! Love you channel,”.
I have about a quarter to 1/2 inch height difference over 5 foot span on floor, I need to level it out, should I put down self leveling cement first then the durarock or vise versa?
Better to use a self leveler then install an uncoupling membrane on top.
@@SalDiBlasiI’m going to self level a floor with mesh, stapled on top of tar paper. Would I still need an uncoupling membrane on top of that of good to go with tiling? Also could I use vapour barrier instead of tar paper. Feel like that would prevent any floor leveller leaking through the diagonal 1x6” subfloor.
I’m remodeling my bathroom and I’ve noticed the quality of products from Lowe’s and other big box stores is going down hill fast! I put in a bathtub that “said” it didn’t need a mortar bed underneath. It squeaked like hell. I also could have had my stringer board an 1/8 of an inch off too! I removed the tub and put thinset under it anyways and it solves that problem! Even if you know what your doing, it’s wise to seek out other information as well!
You always get what you pay for.
Thank you Sal, you are a master and the way you explain thing are easily understandable
We just got a bathroom remodel done and the contractor used KeraFlor unmodified thinset over durock boards which weren't taped at the seams. 12x24 porcelain tiles. Is this setup for failure?
Next is the tub alcove with durock as well and I'm trying to explain to them that alkali resistant tape, modified thinset is to be used to fill all the seams and then 2 layers of aquadefense. Will that at least keep the shower build intact?
I'm planning a tile floor on an existing subfloor of diagonal 1x8 subfloor common in older homes. Thought of using e.g. liquid nails. Now I understand that Hardie recommends a continuous thinset to place the Hardie board on. My subfloor has gaps you can see through. Should I try to put down e.g. Red Guard under the thinset and then apply the Hardie board? House is 1960s vintage. I'm tearing up the old floor/sub straight ... particle board and vinyl. I'm planning on 1/2" Hardie board as base and to bring finished floor level w/ other parts of the house.
You can't put cement board directly on dimensional plank subfloor, you need to install a layer of 1/2" plywood first, then the board. If height will become an issue, use 1/4 cement board instead, if you are still too high, use an uncoupling membrane over the plywood, which would be a much better job anyway.
thanks much for the reply. Much appreciated. I'll likely switch and deal w/ the height while using 1/4". My proposal for 1/2" cement board was to try to create a stable base. What is an "uncoupling membrane"? Red Guard, e.g.?
Thank you! Im doing a DIY tile job & doing some research. You're video has helped me in that endeavor.
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Wont the subfloor cause the Cement Board To crack as the wood subfloor expands and contracts??
I had 2 layers of plywood but the floor was not level. Then I hired a carpenter to install self leveling compound. First we attached 1/2" Hardibackerboard with many screws. Then we poured selfleveler. There are a few ridges and several long hairline cracks in the concrete self leveler. My plan is to install uncoupling membrane before adding the tile. Do I need to rip the entire backerboard up & start over?!
Please advise.🤔
First mistake you made was hire a carpenter to do the self leveling, second mistake you made was attaching the backer board with screws without putting thinset under it. Did you tape the seams of the backer board? I would remove everything and start over, check your joist structure to see if it meets L/360 for ceramic tile, and start from there. I don't mean to sound harsh, but it is usually a good idea to follow manufacturer recommendations.
Hello
I have a question what screws or nails you use hardiebacker over concrete? And also what type of gun or drill I use ?
I want to install tile over a floor that has 5/8 particle board over top 7/16 plywood over a ventilate crawl space. This is not the OSB chip board, but the very fine particle board. The particle board is in good shape, no swelling or water damage. Is there a good way to start prepping my tile base without adding a layer of plywood over the particle board? I am nervous about applying thinset directly to particle board, 'cause I know the staff does not react well to water.
Particle board has to come out, it has no place in a tile assembly, no ifs ands or buts.
I'm putting membrane under my edgeguard board in my bathroom. How does mortar under the board help? Is it because of the rounded edges?
Board needs to be fully supported.
@@SalDiBlasi even on a tiled section less than 5'x4'? I guess so. Paisano, I think I'm going skip it on my personal build. I need to finish the unit and get a tenant in. Later down the line, that rent money will cover it if it fails, but my budget is slim right now. Salute
I have a ply floor.
I was going to use backer board and also a decoupling matting on top of the backerboard.
IS that OK?
Back in the 80s lathe mesh was used under tile and coated with mortar adhesive. The subfloor was 3/4 ply glued and nailed to joists. This was housing tract work and 30 years later tiles are down, grout is good. Today's builds are typically press board glued and nailed. All my tile floors are mortar coat, cement board, roofing nails, taped seam, mortar taped seam and then tile. My mortar bed on subfloor is a little wet, still stands up after troweled. Dry subfloor and applying dry cement board will suck in water. Longer to dry helps adhesion. And yes the next guy to remove this floor is not going to be happy.
Jersey Mud job, not an approved method and prone to fail, no matter what you say. Seen it time and again.
First time tile job I didn't put a thin set under my hard back I don't have a problem now it's been 3 years but I'm seeing small cracks in my tile it's a mat tile witch every piece is about 2x2 and a few have cracks it's not good tile my wife walks on it with high heels I don't know if that's it or not. Question should I tear out the tile also I used Omni glue I've read some bad reports. What to do?
Your floor is failing due to improper installation. Your decision on what you should do, but if you decide to replace it, do some research and know what you need to do.
I've been tiling for 22 years now. Just started watching all the tiling videos on UA-cam about 2 months ago. I like these videos. I was into some of StarrTiles videos until I came to the one explaining why he wouldn't use mortar under his backerboard. And that's where he lost me. Before there was a few other things I disagreed with, but those things were opinionated so I let them slide. But that dude is telling people that there is no reason to glue the board down. I was like really man? Anyways thanks to people in his comment sections I found your videos. Lol
Welcome to the light side. 😀
i just pulled up the old tile floor in the master bath. built in 2007 16 x 16 tiles I am thanking God they didnt glue the old 1/4 board. Something to think about, on the fence about gluing the backer.
If you want to risk failure don't follow manufacture recommendations and TCNA guidelines, what could possibly go wrong.
@@SalDiBlasi Sal, tell me the reason behind gluing down backer board. not being sarcastic, i just dont know the reason why you would. i love your videos
I have a bunch of cement board scraps, any downfall to using small strips provided they are taped and thinset is used under? I plan to use them in a bathroom linen closet where there would be little (or no) foot traffic.
Just how small are they, Cement board is not that expensive, I would probably just buy another sheet.
@@SalDiBlasi 6 to 12 inches wide...another sheet would add to the scrap pile and this is my last project
@@brentlanglois8272 Use up the scraps.
I have 3/4” diagonal planks on 2x8 at 12” o/c. It’s an old house built in the 1950’s. Can I install the backer board on the planks? I want to minimize the transition into the next room.
No
Ok I will need to add a plywood underlay. Thanks.
Very good examples of what not to do and why. Gave my like.
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Do you need to put durarock on a cement basment floor to install tile over it ...or do you just do the dry pack to level the floor and thinset over the dry pack ... id like to do my own bathroom tiles but with so many choices im lost trying to make the best long-lasting decisions ... its a small full bathroom so id like to do it floor to ceiling in tile ... idk if i have to durarock every wall to tile them or just the main shower space ..and use gypsum to tile on ... 🤷♂️..any clarity would greatly be appreciated ..its my first house and i wanna make it nice
6:30 yeah no way that was caused by not putting mortar under the backer board it was the mortar under the tile itself
Yep, that is the only reason. Has jack crap to do with the backboard. I use screws and back butter my tiles and I guarantee you there's no way those tiles will come up whole. Next person will be taking a 5 lb sledge to them or getting under the backerboard with a utility bar to find a PRISTINE subfloor, unlike those that use thinset under their backer.
Joffery Lannister-Baratheon your tile jobs will have cracks and cracked grout lines in the years to come.
@@edwardallen2696 bullshit. Like I said, each tile is as if it was backed by a concrete slab 12 inches thick. I'll never see a loose tile or grout line.
I want to put wonderboard on my concrete floor in my kitchen in Texas. I live in a townhome with a small kitchen . I have already pulled up 2 or 3 layers of vinyl flooring, mostly anyhow. I have already ripped out the pantry and took it to the dump only to find out that you can hardly find 27 " wide pantries. Have of my cabinets are out and I will remove everything because I want to put down wonderboard over thinset. MY question is. Since I am putting wonderboard over concrete, How am I to screw it down? I plan on putting down porcelan tile or ceramic on top of the wonderboard if I ever get this done.
Thanks Sal very informative, thank you. Also had a question would you use latex thin set (as used to install wood floor on cement floor) on second floor. have wooden floor wanted to add latex thin set to apply 1/4" hardy back and then apply tile with latex thin set? I figure it more flexible to avoid cracking from if any movement. What do you think Thanks
You need to a modified thinset to install the backer board to a plywood subfloor and then use a modified thinset to install the tile.
A free little tip from a tile installer in MN...
If you use the proper thinset for adhering the backer board to the substrate, use directional troweling, seam tape, and KEY in the back of each backer board, you have the best mold protection and surface for any tile!!!
I might take issue with that statement, the function of the mortar is to fill all voids between the substrate and the backer board, it is not to adhere the board to the surface. Seam tape is to create a monolithic plane so the floor moves as a single plain, not as individual panels. There are much better underlayments today that protect the floor in ways a backer board can never do. Not to say that it is not a good underlayment for tile, but it is quickly being supplanted by more modern technologies.
@@SalDiBlasi Really?? Does the manufacturer recommend that you only thinset the area where the boards meet??? How do you apply your ditra? I'm a little confused.
I think you can prepare a floor/shower using material that is appropriate for water, weight, and moisture.
I don't think anyone should recommend tiling over drywall, styrofoam (especially those shower floors, curbs, and benches).
Just because something is light weight and extremely easy to do, doesn't make it the best.
Schluter shower systems are a glorified DIY project for those who either can't do it correctly, or can't do it physically.
@@coreylawler4034 Let me clarify, The entire surface where the backer board is to be installed have a thinset applied to fill every void between the to, this is to be certain that the entire board is supported and there are no voids, it is called a supporting plane, or leveling bed, not a bonding bed. Then faterners are applied at the appropriate interval to attach the board to the surface. once that is done the seam tape is used to unify all the panels as one. Refer to the 2018 TCNA Handbook page 162, Method F144-18 for all the details of this method.
Here is a video that explains Schluter Ditra, how it works, and how to install it ua-cam.com/video/YpXEXqbh7ok/v-deo.html I never mentioned Styrofoam, so I am going to assume you know about foam boards. You should educate yourself about newer products, see how they work and why a sealed system for a shower is much better than a vinyl liner, You can fight progress and be left behind, or you can be informed and move with it. I have been installing tile for 34 years, when i see an improvement I usually adopt it. Attend as many training events as you can, I do, I am also a member of the NTCA, I attend Covering every year and follow TCNA standards and Methods.
@@SalDiBlasi I'm very aware of how to put down a concrete based underlayment. I even like Ditra in certain situations. I'm just saying you can't just flat out say Ditra is superior to every other option because a guy with a orange hat in Vegas tells you so.
So let's say I want to install a small format tile or mosaic in a shower floor. Are you telling me that putting in a styrofoam tray that is only supported by thin set is stronger than a mud bed?
I know you are experienced and know what you are talking about. I'm just saying stop telling people that it's always the better option.
To each their own on how they do it. I just feel that concrete based materials are more suitable for areas that receive tile than drywall and styrofoam.
All showers can be waterproofed, too. Regardless of what you make it out of.
Again, I'm not accusing you of doing anything incorrect. Simply saying that sometimes the all mighty schluter system is not the best choice
@@coreylawler4034 If you look at some of my videos you will see that most of my shower floors are mud that incorporate a schluter bonding flange. That being said, I have seen with my own eyes a forklift drive over a tiled Foam tray and come out unscathed. I am not saying that Ditra is better, I am saying that an uncoupling membrane, be it Ditra, Startamat, Mapigard um, Flexbone or whatever, is superior to a cement backer board, because, it is, in almost all cases. A feeling does not constitute fact. Look at the testing, look at the results, look at the science behind it. A liquid applied waterproofing membrane does not have the same perm rating as a sheet membrane or a foam board. I know you're not accusing me of anything, and I am not saying that old methods don't work. We are having a discussion on the methods we like to use and the benefits of each. Cement board is a force conductive assembly, and cement board has no structural value. Any movement under the board will be transferred to the tile. Uncoupling membranes also have no structural value, but they are a non force conductive assemblies, movement under the membrane will not be transferred, along with many other benefits a cement board can't provide. This type of discussion was also had when Cement board was first introduced, mud was king, cement board was garbage, I use to do whole kitchen floors in mud, am I glad those days are over for me. I have installed thousands upon thousands of sheets of backer board, I moved forward then. now uncoupling membranes are proliferating, so I now use those. I try to advance, I evaluate new products and methods, find out the facts, advance with the good, ignore the bad. for me, to just dismiss an advancement as bad because you feel the old is better is your choice, and I have no problem with that. You stated in your very first comment that backer board was the best, I disagreed with you and then you continue to try to convince me otherwise. You have not convinced me, and probably won't, like I said, a feeling is not a convincing argument.
Great channel Sal thanks. I solely now use Shluter product for floors walls and countertops. The results are over the top as a pallet is created for the finished product. My Brother inlaw called me up and said the grout was cracking. on his floor tiling job . I went to have a look and found that he used zero thinnest to adhere shluter ditra to subfloor. He bought the ditra from a home improvement store. The sales person told him that you don't need to adhere the product to the subfloor. The mistake cost a small fortune. Note to the home handyman...certainly do your homework before tackling the job. Check out Sals videos, manufacture product videos. BTW shluters technical support team are second to none.
It is not enough to buy the best products, you still have to install them correctly to have a great install, as you know and as your Brother-in-law has now discovered.
I had a salesperson tell me that I don’t need to put anything under the durock.
As you move south and west it gets worse. The only is it comes up easy. Heart breaks for people who trusted these individuals. It's how I got started 20 years ago doing a mryaid of repairs and finish sub par contractor work. I still learning the tile trade. Ahhh I only do very small jobs with research.
I have a concrete floor section that needs to be tiled. I have removed the existing tile however I need the base layer ot be raised, I wanted to put cement board on the concrete (with thinset of course) in order to get the additional 1/4 inch in height that i need to match up to another flooring height at a different room. Is it okay to put cement board on concrete? If not, what are my options for getting the extra build up in height?
No, use a self leveler.
do I have to put moisture barrier above the hardie board before using mortar for tiles
I see sometimes thin set breaks down and does not set hard. Would it not be better to use liquid nails or some kind of tacky liquid to put on the floor and then install backer board and when backer board is used over plywood subfloor would it not be better to put the same tacky liquid on the tile so you get a good stick and level stick? It seems that the thin set just does not hold tight and firm.
Sure if you want to disregard manufacturer recommendations, TCNA methods and ANSI standards. You can do it that way and then rip it out a couple of years later when it has failed and do it the right way.
My kitchen is suffering the same defect. When I go to demo the non-bedded backer board what is the best way to get it up without tearing my OSB subfloor apart?
I was thinking a stud finding magnet would help me locate the screws maybe?
Maybe an oscillating blade?
If it is not cemented down, a pry bar under the backer and lift it off, should come up pretty easy once you get started.
Thanks for the reply.
I know that’s it screwed down, thought they may be a problem prying up and tearing out the osb
Hi Sal, I'm doing a small tile for my bathroom. The subfloor is not completely leveled,can I use self leveling compound, then, backer board or just straight tiles over self level compound?
Depends on the type of leveler, Look into this www.ardexamericas.com/product/ardex-liquid-backerboard/
Been laying floors for 18 years and have never put mortar under the backer board like some say to do , I have never had this happened but have seen it happen and it always has Stemmed from it either being shity knock off brand mortar or it was installed when it remained super cold in a new constructed house with new central heat and air her room warm the house the tiles won’t bond to the mortar and pop easy like so
Have you ever wondered why the manufacturers say to put mortar under the board? there has to be a reason right.
Would liquid nails heavy duty rated for cement and wood spread with v notch then screwed hold? It seems like it would but i am not 100% which is why i ask
Do not use anything other than the recommended products, the thinset is not for adhesion as much as it is to have a leveling bed to fully support the cement board.
I recently had this argument with a contractor. I was installing hardy backer on a subfloor to install ceramic tiles over it. The contractor walked in and said I didn't need to put mortar under the hardy backer board nor tape the seams. After arguing with him for a few minutes I brought up the hardy backer website and showed him the manufacturer's installation instructions. He said it was a waste of time and money and walked away. Mind you I am a DIY, I am not a contractor. I was just doing a good friend a favor. This contractor was hired by him to install a new wall on a bathroom that had a hidden leak and some of the floor joists were damaged. Needless to say I had to tear up the contractors work and redo it myself with my son's help. The contractor never tied the wall to the joists and the outside wall was left dangling. Unfortunately he walked away with my friend's money. But we fixed it right. He also did not level the floor and we had to use leveling cement mix to level the floor before doing the tiles. I have learned a lot from you Sal. I really enjoy your videos. God bless people like you that are willing to share your knowledge with the rest of us.
Those that think they know more than the people that design test and produce the products, like that contractor, are a burden to us all. Always follow manufacturer recommendations, and industry standards for a trouble free long lasting installation. You were obviously more professional then that contractor.
Every tile installer who defends not bedding tile backer into thinset always brings up tile removal. Why? Most people want the tile to stay down and remain free of cracks. Sure, you can play roulette and not use thinset under backer board, but considering how simple and easy it is to apply, why take that risk?
henryher true, contractors only want to do things the way that they've been taught but timed have changed you can watch videos online on youtube that are up to date with latest technology! and that's better than anything a contractor can offer
and for this diy it would be nice to explain what is abed of thin set?
Hey Sal
You should to the house that now has a new tile install and jump up and down in the middle of the room and count the cracks and broken tiles. Those cracks in between the backer boards were massive. That floor is a trampoline.
I'm not a contractor and my dumbass figured this out when you missed it.
So you can tell if a floor is compliant just by looking at it, I measure the joists structure and unsupported span so i know whether it meets L/360 required for ceramic tile. You seem to be right about the Dumbass part.
Hi from Maine, Another informative video, thanks! My 15 x 15 ceramic-tiled kitchen floor failed after 2 years. It has a 12-foot jagged crack across the floor. The installer did NOT put thin-set under the tile. Could that have caused such a drastic result?
Sorry, under the hardie backerboard!
Sorry, under the backerboard.
yes it could, but if he skipped that important step, he probably cut a lot of corners which i would imagine all contributed to the failure.
Thank you so very much about how imperative it is to always thinset & tape before you backer board.
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Great video! I’m installing 12x24” porcelain tiles in my bathroom. I have 3/4” OSB subfloor. Is this thick enough to lay cement board or do I need to add more plywood before putting down the cement board? I keep hearing that the subfloor needs to be 1-1/4” total but I don’t know if that includes the cement board thickness or not.
Includes the tile which is usually half inch. How did it turn out boss
@@FromTheHood2TheWoods - I ended up going with Blanke Permat underlayment sheets instead of cement board. It was more expensive, but I think it provided a stronger surface to lay the tile on. The sheets were very easy to cut/install and it seems to be pretty solid. I guess time will tell, but I’m happy with the results so far.
I'm want to install a tile floor in my breezeway. The subfloor is a concrete slab. I took the old tile up and there is a thin layer old black mastic. I don't want to scrape that stuff up because I herd it may have asbestos in it. I was thinking of putting a layer hardiebacker down and then tile. Do you think the thinset will bond to the old black mastic?
The mortar under the backer board is a leveling bed, essentially that means it is there to fill all the voids between the subfloor and the backer board to insure there is no movement between the two. The board is held in place by the fasteners. That being said, you can use Mapei Eco Prim Grip amzn.to/2U9bYLS to coat the black adhesive, which is probably CutBack adhesive. The Prim grip will bond to the black adhesive and give you a suitable surface to install your underlayment in preparation for your tile. Here is an article about Cutback inspectapedia.com/hazmat/Floor_Tile_Mastic_Asbestos.php
I've got a floor to do that is covered in linoleum. Can i put the cement board over the linoleum?? Thanks
Not a simple yes or no answer.
@@SalDiBlasi I just got off the phone with the tech department for permabase. He told me that going over the linoleum is not approved. Guess I'll be ripping up the linoleum.
@@JS-hc3tr Best place to bet an answer form the product manufacturer.
Can we install ceramic tiles over the tar or glue residue after removing the vinyl tiles on a concrete floor.
I am avoiding removing the tar or glue with chemicals so it will not affect the concrete surface for bonding with the thin set
Sorry that is a no go.
Sal DiBlasi what is the best way to deal with this situation any suggestions
You can coat it with a Bond promoting primer like Mapei ECO Prim Grip read and understand the directions carefully, www.mapei.com/public/CA/products/6324_ECO_Prim_Grip_EN_lr.pdf or it needs to be mechanically removed by a grinder or shot blast. Just a word of caution, the tar residue may be Cutback and may contain asbestos, there is no way to know if the cutback does unless you have it tested.
I have a concrete floor that I have to level so self leveling compound vs hardie backer board?
what type of thinset do you use between the plywood and the durock?
You can use the cheapest thinset you can find, it is only a filler to give complete support to the board.
Can you use construction adhesive instead of mortar/thin set? My floor is a sub floor that is rock solid and very flat. I just yanked up the linoleum (very little glue underneath) and was about to put the 1/4 Hardy board in with the screws it goes with thinking that would be plenty to keep it stable. I guess I'll rethink this.
No big mistake, the mortar is a leveling bed to insure full contact of the board to eliminate all voids and possibility of movement, the construction adhesive does the exact opposite of what you want.
How much of a big deal is it if non-corrosion-resistant screws were used in fiber cement board? Does it matter if the room is large or small? We have a tiler in the middle of a job right now on 2 smaller bathroom floors - he used non corrosion resistant screw on one, some of the nails on the other floor are sticking up, not sure that he used tape (doesn't appear that he did) and there are gaps under the tiles. I'm hearing from one person that its bc he had to use a lot of mortar to level the floor, but I don't know what to think about this. I just don't want my tiles to fail. Thanks. Wish I could share photos.
How long did it take for the tiles to loosen after the job was completed?
That’s exactly what my kitchen floor looks like underneath. Previous home owner was a DIYer and half-assed a lot of work. Fortunately it’s a small house, but I have had to fix a lot of shoddy work.
If I was to put down backer board over wood and I want to put thin set between the backer board and the subfloor what size trout would I used ?
Also do I have to back butter the backer board prior to lay it down on the thin set ?
No back buttering, the thinset is not there to bond the backerboard to the subfloor, but to give full support to the board with no air gaps, most cases a 1/4x1/4x1/4 square notch trowel is called for. Make sure you tape all seams with an alkali resistant mesh tape, very important.
Thanks a lot I enjoy all the tips and videos
Do you have to use modify or unmodified thin set t between backer board and sub floor hx
Can be a low quality modified mortar.
what if the subbase is mortar not plywood , how you gonna install Duroc?
you don't install durock on concrete.
I’ve done a few home projects I’m not a professional. I screwed wonderboard down following all screw markings and using the approved screws. No thinset between ply. I taped and motored seems and laid tile into motor and apply a fair amount also to tile to cover it completely. I feel no movement or sage. The floor is strong and zero cracking. I have a larger area to do in my new home and I’m apprehensive to thinset the ply because in 15 years when the style changes and I want to remove, the subfloor ply will be caked in thinset and will be impossible to remove properly. Are there any alternatives? I also lay tiles in a staggered pattern so that the tile seems don’t run a long span. I lay a tile row and then offset the next row half on Centre. Any advice will be greatly appreciated.
No one is compelling you to install the Backer board according to TCNA standards, and manufacturer recommendation,what do they know anyway, they only design, research and test the products, doing it their way is a waste of time and effort, a gut feeling is a better standard to follow. Temporary is good, easy to remove something designed to be permanent makes more sense, if it falls apart, it will come right up.
Look into Ardex FlexBone 720, if you really want to do it the right way and have it removable at some point without compromising quality and durability.
Sal DiBlasi thank you for the reply. With this ardex not being fastened or cemented to the subfloor how is it better than using wonderboard that is screwed down?
Backerboard is designed to be used according to manufacturer recommendations, which means a leveling bed of thinset has to be under it, and the seams have to be taped and the fasteners have to be installed at the proper intervals. All the components have to be there for it to work as designed. Flexbone 720 is designed to be a floating system which is not attached to the subfloor. Use one and modify the system, or use the other as designed. One is designed and engineered to float, the other is not.
Our plywood is a level but has some nicks. Will the thinset under the backerboard be enough or do I need to add the self leveling stuff on it first?
Use a modified thinset applied with a ¼ inch by ¼ inch notched trowel, and those nicks or gouges will be neutralized
Do you put anything under the thinset or right on subfloor? Still use same amount of screws even with thinset?
Thinset is just a supporting bed, the screws hold the board in place.
Can anybody think of a reason I shouldn't use Kerdi-band to seal up my 1/4 hardiebacker floor seams? I have quite a bit left over from a previous project. Thanks for any input.
What do you use on concrete floors
I agree you must thinset the backerboard down but it seems to me the problem in that job was an adhesion problem. The tiles didn't adhere or bond to the thinset. The installer didn't get the proper thinset coverage under the tile. He should've watched your videos lol
Yes the thinset under the CBU was only part of the problem, a big part.
Sal DiBlasi what kind of thinset can I use under the cement board?
I removed the old tile in my bathroom (sub floor plywood) in 2 days, including the durock, was a mess, lot of dust (silica) and Damage a little be the plywood, so I am a homeowner trying to do the best. Please let me know what kind of thinset (white or gray) I can use, thank you Sal.
Hey Sal I'm installing 1/2" wonderboard over 2 sheets of 1/2" overlapped OSB sheathing. I don't feel comfortable installing wet thinset under the wonderboard to the OSB. If I nailed 30lb felt over the OSB protecting it from moisture and then installed the thinset and wonderboard with screws every 6". Do you see any harm in that? Also I'm installing 400 sq. ft. of 10"x47" plank tile.
Wonderboard requires the leveling bed of thinset when installed on a floor, not doing that goes against what they say, modifying that goes against what they say, they are very clear about it, as are all the manufacturers of similar products. There is no reason to use 1/2" on the floor instead of the 1/4", Cement board has no structural value so using the 1/2" has no benefit unless you need the height. If you want to modify the application, it is best to contact the manufacturer, if they say yes, then you are good to go, if they say no, then proceed at your own risk.
Thanks for the fast response.
Thanks for the video. Do i still have to use backerboard im already using ditra. Thanks sal
No, ditra re[laces the backer board.
Hello , great video.I'd love some advice. Im remodeling my kitchen and laying tile and hired a remodeler. The plywood is laid and the cement board is nailed right on top nothing in between. No glue no nothing. That was done today. As we walk across the floor theres some place where the floor feels wobbly or as if it sinks. I was told that that dosent matter cause on top will go a layer of cement. Is that normal ?
First thing that should have been done is to check the deflection of the floor by looking at the joist structure. here is a video ua-cam.com/video/74BDTI67S1M/v-deo.html If the deflection is good, then should see if the subfloor is in good condition and the correct thickness and suitable for a tile floor installation. That being good, the cement board should be installed according to manufacturer recommendations, which includes a leveling bed of mortar under the cement board to support the board and fill all voids here is a link to Durock installation guide, www.usg.com/content/dam/USG_Marketing_Communications/united_states/product_promotional_materials/finished_assets/usg-durock-cement-board-with-edgeguard-installation-guide-en-CB237EG.pdf other brands basically have the same requirements. Cement board has no structural value, if the tell you it will stiffen the floor, it does not.
I have a 110 year old house that we removed 5 layers of flooring to replace with tile. There are a few places where due to age the floor has a few inconsistencies. It has been suggested to float thinset under to backerboard to make it flat. Is this a reasonable idea?
No, thiinet is not to be used as a filler, it was not designed for that, use an appropriate patch or self leveler.
The only time you need to tape and mud the seams on a floor is if the tile doesn't overlap the seam 3 inches or more .And i never put thinset under the backer board, I put 2 inch screws on the joist every 6 inches and I put 1.250 inch screws in between the joists every 8 inches. I've never had a problem in 12 years.
Can you use contractor staples 1-1/2 to install backer board?
No
When you put mud under the backer board, do you have to wait to tile on top?
no
@@SalDiBlasi thanks
Thanks for this I wished you lived near me Berkeley IL. I would like to do my kitchen floor over and bathroom over. I'm going to do this. This helped me a lot. Thanks, Sir.
I have 3 Season Square Log Cottage in Canadian climate (large garage area underneath), has OSB T&G flooring, so want to lay porcelain Italian tiles at high traffic entranceway (40sq ft). Do you recommend cement board or Schluter system as underlayment ? And thanks for very helpful tips/solid videos
I always use Schluter Ditra, much better job.
I am installing new kitchen cabinets and plan on using 24"X6" tile for countertop. Do you think a single sheet of 3/4" (good grade) and 1/4" BackerBoard with Thin set in between is adequate substrate for time choice? Small kitchen only about 26 square feet total countertop? Thank you! You are awesome!
No, I would use a double layer of plywood, 3/4" plus 1/2" then the backer board or an uncoupling membrane. Or you can use a thick foam board like Kerdi-Board as your substrate.
Sal DiBlasi Sal, that is exactly guidance i needed! Definitely will use backer-board or the other product for substrate (Is it sold in big box lumber stores i.e. Home Depot or Lowe’s?). My struggle has been if 3/4” was adequate which big box employees said yes but wasn’t comfortable or confident in what they where telling me - my reason for reaching out to you! I will feel much better knowing need to include sheet of 1/2” plywood on top of 3/4”! I know you’re busy but one more question; Does the 2 sheets of plywood need to be good quality BC (or whatever is smooth on one side) or like expensive smooth cabinet grade plywood i.e. oak, maple, etc.?
Sal,
Thank you so much for your quick and professional response with info i know i can trust!!!
Allen Portman
Houston, Texas
When i started we had screw nails, i thought they were so cool. I remember sitting with grandpa saying theres nothing to do..sat me at the anvil with a cookie tin of bent nails, told me how to hammer them straight so we could reuse them.
Great times.
would adding an uncoupling membrane over cement backer board prevent cracking? I notice they encourage one or the other but why cant you use both cement backer board and uncoupling membrane as well?
Pointless to use both, cement board has no structural value, so adding it gains nothing if you use an uncoupling membrane.
Would I need to put a layer of thin set on backer board that's being placed over an older vinyl tile floor that;s glued to concrete?
Yes
Thanks, this is very helpful, as I am about ready to lay a tile floor. Once the cement board is down with thin set should I also seal it with a latex primer sealer after taping and mortaring the joints?
No, just install your tile.
Thank you!
Thanks! Good info for me while I make plans to install tile for my new kitchen.
Im getting ready to lay tile on cement board that I didnt thinset down, but screwed with drywall screws. Should I even bother taping seams? Not going to pull it all up to thinset it, will also be back buttering the tiles and laying on straight troweled thinset. This is in an old apartment building. Will definitely be thinsetting the board down next time. This is also down over laminate floor, maybe will add some strength underneath. Feeling like a hack now, though this is how I was told to do it.
I would start from scratch, you know it is wrong, it will probably fail at some point, question is, will it be weeks months or years. Roll the dice see what happens, maybe you will get lucky, but don't count on it.
Thanks for the quick response. I really should pull it up and redo it but other apartments have been tiled by the same guy that told me how I should do it and those floors are fine. Next time will do it right, will take the chance this time, its on the guy who said how to do it but of course dont look good on me either.
Just had to chisel up some tile around a 220v external stove receptacle that sits on the floor, this tile guy tiled around it making it impossible to plug the stove cord. He also did the same around the baseboards instead of pulling them off. lol.
We have just replaced our kitchen floor and adding tile. The tile itself is like 36" long and 9" wide. I have one piece that will not set. One end of it seems to not dry. Pulled that piece up and scraped the stuff off it and cement board and redid. Still taking forever to dry. Can't figure out why.
What adhesive are you using to set the tile?
My problem - what do I do now I thought the leveling should have been done before the tiling process began he used thinset to level the floor as he placed the tiles 12 x 24 on top when I saw this I was so surprised after he left I measured 1 and 1/4 inch of thinset that measurement also includes the porcelain tile furthermore he did put the Hardie backer board down first with nails and thinset the job is now 3/4's done what are the dangers of leaving the 1 1/4" of thinset under the tiles? or should I have them start over and do it right what should I do???? Please help!
That is your decision on what to do, however thinset is an adhesive meant to be used only at limited thicknesses. Depending on what kind they used, the bond coat should never be more than 3/8", or at most 1/2", and that is pushing it.
@@SalDiBlasi thank you so much for responding back he used MAPEI PORCELAIN TILE MORTAR I do understand that the decision is mine but I wanted to know if you can give me the cons of leaving 1 1/4" thinset please?
@@gogo81k Used beyond the recommended bond coat thickness, the adhesive will shrink and pull away leaving a poorly bonded tile. Leveling should always be done before the tile is installed to have a flat surface to set tile. The products used for leveling and patching are designed to work at much thicker applications. Thinset is an adhesive designed to work in a very specific and limited range.
@@SalDiBlasi My gut feeling is telling me to have him remove the tiles and properly level the floor using the correct materials to do so. But the flip side is I really don't want him to that cause he may mess that up too. Although the tiles do look visually nice if the foundation is wrong I believe I would have problems. I justed wanted some facts to present to him that the tiles were laid wrong. I waited so long to get this project up and running I feel very sad and disappointed!!!
@@gogo81k look up the mortar he is using and see what the max allowable bond coat thickness is.
Hi i want to remove carpet in my living room and install tile or stone my house is water floor heating so in order for the tile to stay firm does not get crack later i want to install backer board and use tap so i should use thinset than backer board and then thinset and tile on the top please correct me if i wrong thanks
Is your subfloor plywood or concrete? if you have underfloor heating an uncoupling membrane is probably a better option.
Most helpful tile video I’ve seen, thank you.
Would like to request your opinion on issues I’m experiencing in my kitchen. My 1 year-old install has numerous hollow-sounding tiles, some grout bursting from seams, hairline grout cracks everywhere, some cracked tiles, and some tiles make a crunching sound under pressure.
I witnessed the install and confirmed correct mortar and trowel compatibility with the tile. 1/2” hardybacker mortared & screwed to plywood subfloor (2nd level of home), seams taped. At least 1/4” gaps between at all mating walls/cabinets.
Some tiles seem solid (but still with grout cracks), and noisy symptoms go away in the winter.
My theory - unlevel floor in some areas, not enough thinset in others, perhaps swirling trowel lines, and more expansion gaps needed? My current plan is to remove offending tiles, level mortar beneath, and reapply tiles.
Any insight would be appreciated. Best regards!
Sounds like the floor has failed completely, There are other possible causes that could have contributed to the failure of your floor, but those that you mentioned are all very possible. I would suggest replacing the entire floor. in my experience popping tiles and cementing them back down will not solve your problem and will be a never ending task as the floor continues to deteriorate. I would also evaluate the floor structure to be sure that it meets L/360 for porcelain tile, if it does not, replacing the tile will lead to another failure.
Hi Sal, Thank you for the very informative video. I hope that even though this is a few years old I will get a response.
I am in process of redoing my small 1960's bathroom. I took up 1960's mosaic type floor tile and discovered a few things that I have questions about, hoping you can offer solutions.
1) The paper backing with the small holes that held the tiles together, along with grout lines seems to be a permanent part of the underlayment. Can thinset be applied over this to successfully bond the backer board? (1/4" backer). If not, any suggestions on how to remove it? I was thinking a wire brush on a drill.
2) The underlayment is 50% plywood by the toilet and tub and 50% particle board from the middle to the opposite wall to the vanity. The particle board is under where the vanity is going, and extends to the entry area, almost half way into the room. I read that particle board does not hold screws well, so I thought to use longer backer board screws to pass through the particle board and fasten to the plywood subfloor. Is this ok?
3) At the seam where the particle board meets the plywood there are many , many nails (rusted heads) in about a 2 ft strip of the particle board. My guess is that it was not level or it may have swelled at installation and it was beat down with all the nails to make it even with the plywood. There is no joist below this seam so all the nails are going into the subfloor. My first thought was to tear it all out, but then I read that the particle board could be glued and it will be a nightmare to remove. I am concerned that one or more of these nails may decide to move. Can I seal the particle board and nail heads and then use thinset and durock over it all?
Thank you in advance for your thoughts and suggestions.
Sal, need your input sir. My kitchen has 3/4" OSB, then 1/4" plywood with linoleum on top. Is there any way I can avoid removing the linoleum? It's not peeling or punctured anywhere.
The 1/4" plywood and the linoleum have to come up. Both are a problem.
@@SalDiBlasi thanks Sal. I'll be ripping them out then.
What kind of tape do you use for the joins thanks
Alkali resistant mesh tape