GAUGE THE ISSUE: New Builds - The Good, The Bad & The Comical
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- Опубліковано 15 сер 2018
- DISCLAIMER:
Any views or opinions expressed in this video are those of Chris Eden-Green. These are made without intention of offending anyone.
This is a video critique. All images and footage are referenced under Section 107 "fair use" guidelines.
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The sad fact of reality preservationists have to come to terms with is, nothing lasts forever. None of these machines are in original build condition, they have moving parts, components that brake, rust, wear out and need replacing. Eventually, the entire locomotive is a replacement, a replica.
Another sad fact is, we've lost so many unique examples of machines, and there just isn't the resource, time, demand, or the money to bring many of them back.
I never understood the attachment to the parts that were part of a given engine however many decades ago. It's a Ship of Theseus kind of dilemma, but it's not like they weren't constantly having parts replaced when they were ran by their original railways.
The Ship of Theseus paradox. That said, most people disregard the paradox overall; as long as the new parts continue the spirit of the original, it's generally not considered to be an issue.
the old solution to the paradox, as it goes; "This 'ere is my favourite broom. The handle's been changed a few times, and the head's been changed a few times, but it's served my family well for generations!"
Break
Thanks for mentioning the L&B. Yesterday, the project was revealed to build TWO new Manning Wardle locos, 'YEO' and 'EXE'. Interesting for enthusiasts but also a business decision to provide locos for the extended L&B railway. Very exciting times on Exmoor😊
I'd like to see a project to create a standard gauge Double Fairlie, just for sheer ridiculousness...
fake and gay
Mexico Had them in the 1870 I'm lead to belive
There have been several standard gauge Fairlies over the years. One of the South Wales railways had them. Their problem is that there's no bunker so they're limited by the amount of coal they can carry.
Russians had them 5ft gauge!
@@somerandomdude1552 , that is true, they did.
I would love to see the french 242 A-1 built again. It is supposed to be the most powerful ever built in Europe, but sadly had a short carreer.
I was always (well, starting with the de Glehn Atlantic compounds) a great fan of French steam locomotive design. Chapelon ranks amongst the great.
FWIW, I worked for years on projects for Alstom (then GEC-Alstom), including the original Eurostar and TGV Atlantique as modified - against specific orders from above - for the Korean version, the KTX.
And a 230D "runner", sure there are 2 still around, but with neither seeming to be restored to working order- maybe time for a new build? They were very versatile from what I heard?
@@olic9804 they were indeed quite great but had fairly limited power due to their low tonnage and size- a 141P would be damn impressive for sure
A 141P would be nice to see! They are real beasts! I'm biased to the 230Ds - a new build might be better suited to doing both mainline and tourist line work (though I'm heartened by how many French steam locos are still around and not just in Mulhouse!)
Personally, I'd love to see someone construct a Neilson boxtank.
and they should paint it green, and add s & m to the sides
@@whossean no they should not even though I am a thomas fan I still think they should not
would be cool for someone's garden/industrial shortline, but not much more. I doubt it could start off with more than 2 loaded Mk1s.
but they shoud paint it green. because it just works.
@@kitchenjail3546 yea but not putting on s&m
@@kitchenjail3546 yea but not put s&m that would not make sense plus s&m means sodor and mainland railway
Armchair enthusiasts: "WHAT?!?!? How dare they scrap a steam loco that's been sitting in the middle of nowhere! Perposterous! People have no respect for steam. Somone should spend hundreds of thousands to restore it!"
Everyone else: "Well, how about, you? You seem to be the only one with the enthusiasm to do it"
Armchair enthusiasts: "Well, I-, erm, um-...."
*Steam engine gets restored anyways"
Armchair Enthusiasts: "Well done everyone! We saved the loco! Steam is king! Can you-I mean we build an LNER 10000 now?"
Well Mr. Armchair how much did you contribute?
@@warrenlehmkuhleii8472 That doesn't detract from his point.
thats for real the truth amd steam engines build the foundation for railsways
Throw in an improved erie triplex and a santa fe 2-10-10-2 a B&O C-16 0-4-0 docksider, a S2 Turbine and a J1 hudson and a loop of track in the middle of the Mojave desert for them to run on once.
@@raymondleggs5508 But the B&O Little Joe would be cheap. They were TINY.
I never realized that some of the new-builds are going with the Doctor Frankenstein approach
The best new build project out there in my opinion is 82045 for a versatile loco that would suit any preserved line and easy to work on plus without the need to constantly court publicity, a very good well organised project which is doing everything right. I also look forward to the two new Manning Wardles for the L&B, hopefully I will be getting involved with one of them. An interesting thought IF Lew was found somewhere in deepest darkest South America would she be better being kept as a museum piece and a replica built or having such a comprehensive rebuild there wouldn't be much left of the original?
I'm honestly very excited for the H2 rebuild, as it is a favorite of mine. Personally though, I believe the original locomotives in preservation take priority in terms of components and work.
Still, any loco in steam is a good thing in my views
Thier actually starting to build steam locomotives here in the u.s,such as the t1 project. But it's still mostly restorations here.
The only new builds in the UK I’m monitoring progress on are Prince of Wales, Unknown Warrior, and the new H2.
I’m also big on the 5550 project, being from its home state... I love seeing the argument “eeugh don’t break Mallard’s record there’s no point”, natural progression is a thing. And I think you people should be more proud that it will likely hold the record for a century, and if it does get beaten, it’s still the fastest original engine. This coupled with the fact that the Pennsy’s history in its late steam years was defined by its duplex projects, then this thing has significance.
What new-build projects would you like to see? Personally, I would like to see a SR Z Class deserves a new-build as it was the only steam shunter built by the SR. I don’t know if it’s too expensive though.
Reny Rex a new build Hudson or Niagara is likely at the top of my list, a strange one I would adore is the GT3, I’m a sucker for gas turbines. Lastly, and you can rat me out all you want for this, a new E2. Yes the thing isn’t that good, yes, it’d be the ultimate marketing tool. But I feel it’s high time the thing gets revived, just give it an accurate livery and run it how the real deals intended to: passenger. Just my thoughts.
Great new episode! Love the series and great job on the new episode.
You've completely ignored that fact that the Ffestiniog Railway's Boston Lodge Works built a completely new Double Fairlie in the 1970s, and are continually building new stock, not only for their own use, but for other railways, too.
Yeah. I mean, not only are they re-gauging an engine they bought from China for the Welsh Highland railway, but we also have another Fairlie getting built and named James Spooner.
@@retrogamelover2012 You might like to join my Facebook group, "Ffestiniog & Welsh Highland Through the Ages".
Err..... I'll think about it. Kind of haven't really used that for quite some time.
@@alanbrookes8716 He’s talking about the standard gauge.
I'm an armchair dumping my thoughts here: (Warning, wall of text level: Verdun)
1, Some questions I think people aren't asking enough include:
"How do we get more right-of-way maintenance personnel, machinists, shop-time, tools, young people, money, good press, and general interest into the Preservation Movement", "How do we protect the historically valuable from wrath of weather, time, eviction, and vandalism", "Should, or if so, How are Preservation Societies to work cooperatively?", "Under what circumstances should things be Conserved, Restored, Replicated, or Scrapped?", "When is timeliness of restoration a concern, and to what degree?", "How much does 'original fabric' matter, and in what situations?", " When does having an old machine that's had many of it's parts worn/repaired/replaced tell more history than 'backdating' and/or replicating an earlier version of itself or it's kin?", "When is having a number of engines in the same class preserved in working order a good idea or not? For instance Terriers vs 9F's", "How well does using 'parts-source-engines' go towards the secondary goal of maintaining/evolving living manufacturing traditions, both on it's own, and relative to either building from scratch, or restoring the often decrepit original ones outright?" "Should old locomotives be modernized? If so, under what circumstances?"
2, If older engines are to be scrapped, I think they should be first tested to see if they are made from Low-Background Steel, as it would be a waste of both money and other antiques (see "Illegally salvaged Naval War-Graves) to sell it for it's weight in normal scrap on the off-chance that they happen to be made from it.
3, A minor (and fully predicted) critique of the Video is that I consider GWR 2800 class 2861 to possibly a better poster-child for the "anti-parts-source-engine-scrapping-armchair-faction", as the engine in question had a reparable: Boiler, Wheelset, Cylinder blocks, Motion components, Tender, Fittings, etc. (I.E. one of the least 'hard fixes' of any of the Barry Ten) all of which have enough 'life left in them' to be used for multiple New-Build and overhaul projects. Effectively contradicting the notion that the engine was "too far gone" or "lacked the original fabric" to be restored. By contrast, LMS 5 MT 44901 (the one with the torched smokebox, no tender, and open cylinders in the video) is now a back-burner restoration project for the Berkeley Vale Railway. The main 'saving grace' to the argument being that 2861 helped rebuild/overhaul multiple engines, which is the converse of the more-typical (and long-winded) argument that goes something like: " Multiple old engines for one 'new engine', and still having to fix the old components salvaged, for little reduction in price vs. building/restoring from scratch... (insert foam here) "
Sincerely, Ben Skorupka
We here in the Rebellious Colonies have had small projects for new small steam but new big steam is a battle.
Thats an odd way to describe America, but ight.
I was literally looking up new builds when you uploaded this
Watched this again. Absolutely right, Chris. New-builds are definitely the future if we are to continue to see regular working steam into the late 21st century (environmental concerns aside). Restoring older locos is fine, but at over (at least) 60 years old they won't be economic to keep repairing or want to keep replacing historic parts. Better to keep for special occasions or museums, and thrash around behind new-builds. Yes please, another GTI vid on the issue of historic authenticity of original equipment versus replicas (vide Rocket and Lion) would be most welcome. Great entertaining videos, Chris. And keep being provocative!
Fab as usual Chris. Thanks for mentioing the L&B aswell.
(as a side note Lyd and Lyn are hopefully staring at the L&B gala in September side by side, making it the first time in 93 years that two L&B locos sat side by side)
Well said, I see what you mean with the groups. Hopefully many new builds will come to fruition, along with making funds for restorations of older locos.
Very good points chris, however a good for argument for new builds look no further than the Ffestiniog railway! In 1979 the new build earl of Merioneth was completed to take over the role of the engine now named Livingston Thomson. Now 39 years later the earl has been the first new build to be retired from service and shall be replaced by yet another new build James Spooner....without new builds the ffestiniog would not be able to run as it does today.
TheSkyWright how about a standard gauge Double Fairlie locomotive... ;)
@@Eric_Hunt194 would be far over powered for any heritage line!
@@TheSkyWright It’s name was always Livingston Thompson, wasn’t it?
Plus, the Square is simply awaiting overhaul, at least that’s the current plan.
I agree that some of the new builds are taking money and resources away from loco awaiting overhauls. Didcot admitted the other year that there new build projects had taken precedents over locos in there stocklist which has meant recently had trouble having locos avaliable to run there trains on open days.
Brilliant work as per always Chris, nice to have another little Railway debate topic to discuss. I can see both sides of the argument here, as it's important to preserve and maintain what we already have, but it's just as important to try and bring back some things that were lost. The important thing to remember for new builds is this: will it be practical and suitable in today's society. Take the P2 for example: not only is it an important part of LNER history and a unique design that has had all the kinks (hopefully) worked out, it will be suitable for heavy long distance rail tours, because that's basically what kind of job it's Class was designed for: fast heavy express work. Something like a 2P just wouldn't be powerful enough, and that leaves it in an awkward position. Even the 82045 project makes sense. Yes, it's not a big engine and it's not particularly fast. But it's light weight and the reliability of a standard design means it's perfect to fill in for some of the older engines on heritage railways. The important thing is to be realistic, practical and, above all, be sensible and respectful in your opinions
Another great episode Chris, good to see GTI back. In regards to the topic, I can see where you're coming from in that it is good that new builds of pre-existing locos are being made, but it is a downer with the new builds meaning that older locos waiting for overhaul are being sidelined. Kind of questions where do people's priorities lie with preservation
has it really been four months? i swear i feel like yall pump these things out routinely, and each time its a blast!
Regarding "other proposals"... no one should propose... "one of those", unless they're willing to offer their free time to chase behind it with a bucket of water as it runs itself dry each time it travels the distance of its own length. Plus there's already Birch Grove on the Bluebell which is basically that same design, but with every bad thing about the earlier models being improved.
If you just HAVE to have something from THAT franchise, at the very least a J70 tram would be of some genuine value as something unique that doesn't exist in preservation, and would actually be useful in a heritage environment.
EDIT: Also as a fan of Stepney, I'd much rather a replica be built than the original get run into the ground.
4:21 blue circle at is at the Dorset steam fair this year
Looking forward to a real life Claud Hamilton running in the near future! I’m sold it’ll be a great engine to revive after seeing it in Brian Hollingsworth’s the Great Book of Trains.
just to add -Ravenglass and Eskdale Rly built 2-6-2 Northern Rock in 1976, and another later for export to Japan..
I don't believe the argument that new build projects 'take money away' from existing preserved locomotives stands up to scrutiny. The prospect of recreating an A1, P2 or Patriot will be more enticing to some people, you cannot assume that the same person will contribute as much or at all of their cash to a loco restoration if the new build didn't exist. The same has been said about Flying Scotsman, that the NRM could have restored several locomotives to steam for that £4.6m - however as I understand it that amount of money was only available for Scotsman due to its high profile (ie people like Beardy Branson chipping in).
Great topical debate as always Chris & 1 which got me thinking, the Barry issue makes the most interesting point (especially after reading through the Steam Railway Britain's Preserved Locomotive Guide), the most notable extreme example that crossed my mind while watching this was GWR Small Prarie No.5553, the last engine to leave Woodham Bros in 1991 having been turned down by nearly 200 groups & was returned to steam 11 years later (a couple of years later I even enjoyed the opportunity to ride behind her on the West Somerset & even visit her cab). It beggars my belief that several other ex-Barry wrecks were saved earlier but not all of them have been steamed :( And since I'm on the topic, a interesting fact too after doing some number-crunching of my own (hope my numbers are correct at time of writing this :p ) : Of the 213 locos rescued from Barry, presently only 66 have never steamed in preservation (with 7 of these being dismantled, mainly because key parts such as boilers/wheels/frames were donated to new-builds or in the tragic case of GWR 57xx No.3612, used as a source of spares for her sisters) Again I'm aware my numbers on those not yet steamed could be incorrect if those close to completion in the last few months have since steamed in anger for the first time since withdrawal. In which case, great :)
Is it also the fact that their is still plans of old tracks which are no longer running being assembled. Last year, there was a story of plans of doing a new heritage railway line from lymn to Wythenshawe.
Jolly good,jolly good!A very well rounded article.I am in the enviable position of seeing all of this going on and thinking that it's other people doing great things with other people's money(both restoring historical engines and new builds)!This is similar in a way to the great livery debate.If a group wishes to build an engine from scratch then they have my blessing.Call me a skin-flint but I don't personally donate money to such projects(no justification, it's just how I roll) but if people are willing to spend money on either idea then all power to their respective elbows!
I actually saw something about the bloomer in my magazine yesterday!
BTW If I had to start a project to make a new-build (Which I am NOT BTW) I'd probably do a C14. Even though it'd still be complex.
Saint is done! 😁
Best episode so far :)
Love it! And some new builds are somewhat out of place like you said. But I am looking forward to the saint class, the 47xx, unknown warrior, and the LBSCR atlantic.
Great episode I have recently seen my local heritage line has restored a merchant navy class.
Good Points. Sad picture of LION in Liverpool. Just been to Steam at Swindon,and its all the same there, engines separated from tenders, display boards in the way, a cacophony of sounds effects and voice memoirs, too clean too corperate and just no atmosphere.
OK the old GWR museum was cramped and a bit limited but Steam is all fur coat, there are pubs with more railwayana !
Another great editorial, though like a few other comments I was surprised you didn't include the PRR T1 as a bit of a bizarre new-build. If I may make a possible suggestion for future GTI, I'd be curious about your thoughts on rails vs. trails. I'm not sure how it is in the UK, but recently in the US we've had several lines in New York close or be truncated in part or whole because of pro-trail sentiments (with one still in litigation), and the Indiana Transportation Museum having to scramble to move equipment after being given a two-week notice, resulting in some items being cut up on site. Obviously this treads a bit on your Disneyfication topic and each situation has other factors involved, but I feel it would be a topic worth some time, or if there were any similar British examples.
To be honest, you have a great point 80100 at the bluebell should just be sold off for parts, the Class 2 being built/converted has a brighter future.
A factor which was mentioned a couple times and I would like to see a bit more discussion about, is what do the new builds do for preserving knowledge and technology for the maintaining of preserved engines?
Nice to see someone point out the problems with new builds. personally I'm not for new builds as it will never be the original nor should one be named the same as an original. new builds are very much like Clone cars (vintage cars built on a modern frame), I would never touch one, but if no one told you what difference would it make?. although I'd take a new build over a cobbled together locomotive from various class's and railroads.
As a railfan from the U.S.A., I highly agree with your points and argument. Although the Pennsylvania Railroad T1 4-4-4-4 5550 project (prrt1steamlocomotivetrust.org/) is an interesting new build project that is attempting to break the steam locomotive speed world record set by Mallard in the 1930s, it's always sort of boggled my mind as to how they're going to get this locomotive to the right section of trackage to break this record (this locomotive is 122 feet long, keep in mind). It's just not very realistic. Over here in the U.S.A., the only good stretches of trackage can be found on the Northeast Corridor between Boston and New York, where Amtrak's Acela Express reaches 150 mph, but as far as I'm concerned, I have no clue how they're going to move that beast there if they are even going to use that section of track. I don't know, maybe they already have it figured out and us railfans are just oblivious.
There are going to be reliability issues with our legacy locomotives. New locos should be built and run as much to reduce "pressure" on the existing stock.
Welcome back Chris!
Can i suggest a video exploring the question of whether heritage steam loco's will be converted to oil rather than coal, in light of the rising costs and disappearing availability of coal from both the UK ( with the failure of the new deep pit mine in north Yorks), and Europe in general.
How expensive to swap from coal to oil, emissions standards, maintenance etc, and the effect it would have on preserved and heritage lines and the charities often funding them, i think may well be vitally important for preservation throughout the country.
And a decent investigation into the topic would be very informative. Cheers, Ali
Interesting presentation. I have absolutely no idea if money gets channeled away from previously preserved locos and their maintenance, by new builds, but both are important. I know that during their epic push to get to East Grinstead, Bluebell railway couldn't help but run out of money for their 'big engines' and even the little ones.
The 9F has been undergoing 'maintenance/refurbishment for decades, it seems (actually 2002) Archibald Sinclair ran for a time, suffered firebox issues and hasn't been seen since, same goes for 21C123. Stowe hasn't been in steam for decades, although is apparently due back soon. It is beginning to look like 'Beachy Head' will steam before either of the Bulleid's, although Stowe might just beat her. I imagine Bluebell are gagging to get their hands on 84030 as soon as possible. But all this is not surprising, after the way the 'push north' played out. If it wasn't done in 2013, it might not have got done at all. The knock on effect though, has been very difficult for Bluebell locos.
Then there's 'Stepney'. Everybody's favourite engine and, as an engineer, I can fully understand the dilemma Bluebell management faced when she was withdrawn. If they do a really top notch, last another hundred years rebuild, there wouldn't be much left of the original Stepney, but unless you are prepared to build a working replica, that is inevitable. So, purists will have to be satisfied with what little there is left.
There is a bloke on an American UA-cam clip - referring to # 4014 UP 'Big Boy' that is, as I write, in steam for the first time in 60 years and scheduled to travel, double headed with # 844, to Ogden, Utah to celebrate the 150th anniversary of the 'Golden Spike ' ceremony. He was bitching and whinging that it was a tragedy # 4014 had been converted to burn oil, instead of coal and, indeed wouldn't even use its own tender. He accused UP of all sorts of betrayal, even though they had funded the restoration of Big Boy - an absolutely mind boggling prospect for UK steam nerds - in only six years. This bloke didn't even want to watch, because it was such a travesty. Can any British Steam Nerd understand that point of view?
Concerning new builds the medium size branch line locomotive, like the 2mt, 3mt and V3 are very practical subjects.
This because it will not be possible to run vast amounts of mainline steam tours, not now and not in the future.
Many routes in the UK already have a steam ban, as the slots in the timetables are too small to allow something that accelerates and stops slower than modern trains, needs watering stops, blocking platform space in the meanwhile, and always has a chance to break down and block a line.
But the engines mentioned above, and similar engines, are very practical for preserved lines.
One reason for the Bluebell to not restore Stepney or the Adams radial is that those engines aren't powerfull enough to pull 6 or 7 coaches on their own on that line, and double heading is creating staffing issues, as volunteer staff is mostly only available during the weekends and weekday running is provided by payed staff.
Engines too large like an A4 or 9F aren't either economical enough for the average weekday running, there are only a couple of lines that have the loads and distance which make one of those not over the top, like the SVR or WSR.
That's why 4mt tanks and GWR prairies are such popular engines.
But a lot of preserved railways struggle to have an adequate steam fleet, because of the aging nature of it, loco's often fail before a boiler ticket runs out and is planned for overhaul.
For instance the Crab on the East Lancs, which had bearing issues and leaking tubes, the decission had been made, because of the amount of work that already had to be done, to make it fit for a new 10 year ticket, in the meanwhile leaving a gap in the loco roster.
To be true it's a fact that most of the existing loco fleet UK wide is undergoing or waiting to undergo maintenance and is not available.
So the smaller new builds will have the future, altough, not being landmark locomotives, it's more difficult for these groups to collect funding.
Even when a 3mt tank does only cost £1.2m instead of £5m.
Read the story of the new build standard tank and was impressed with the thought that went into the decision to go with that type of loco.
We have the same problem here in Aus with heritage line locos. Some are getting their first full overhaul since preservation and the more they pull them apart the more work they find meeds doing.
It kind of sad that there are already many new steam engines in the UK, but here the US,we only have 2 well known completed ones, the Golden Spike 4-4-0's Jupiter and 991, and the PRR T1 Duplelx that was going to be finished by 2020 but we only have a tender some wheels and a nose
TrapRockTransportation#2002Fan55 Don’t forget Leviathan replica & York #17
"Planet", first steamed in 1992, was the first standard-gauge mainline express passenger locomotive built in the UK since 1960. We pointed that out to the A1 lot when they visited MOSI with Royalty.... whilst it has only ever run on preserved lines, wheels etc were all machined to BR tollerances for mainline running.
I can appreciate a number of the things you said regarding a locomotive after it was built, and one locomotive you mentioned by name jumps out at me. Big Bertha, a unique engine built for a very specific task, however, if the people looking to build a new one did make headway - for arguments sake - I think it would be an idea loco for certain heritage lines.
Using the NYMR as an example, it's not a high speed line and engines simply run around the train at either end, which although not much of an issue due to the low speeds, it's less than ideal. Bertha, with the cab tender would be better suited to this running than, oh I don't know, Sir Nigel Gresley. Bertha's limited speed wouldn't be an issue on a line such as this. Yes, there are other engines with a similarly enclosed cab, but there are fewer that meet the requirements of the line.
Another stalwart of the NYMR fleet, Repton is an impressive engine, but is often seen double heading due to the inclines on the line during peak season. Another issue a replica of the (in)famous Lickey Banker would take in stride, the inclines and heavy trains ought not to be an issue for such a hulk of a machine as Bertha.
I suppose this is less of a counterpoint and more of a supplement. It is as you say, each locomotive must be considered on a case by case basis, weighing pros and cons as well as supply and demand. I will concede, I have little grasp on the business side of running a steam locomotive. I know the science, and top-trumps values are easily found on the internet, but other than knowing a steam locomotive is expensive to build, I don't know much as regard to the economics.
Why did you show pictures of John Cleese at particular junctions? I don't get it
Where ?
Garrets exist in numbers. Their are 2 to my knowledge that are in operational condition and countless in static preservation.
Union Pacific uses parts from the 838 to repair the 844, I don't have a problem with scrapping any engine which has gone beyond its useful life (when the owners decide it's too expensive to repair).
They could at lest put 838 in a park.
See
In America
I doubt we have nearly as many locomtovies restored and running. As far as I know Americans arent all that keen on new builds but that's definitely a topic that warrants further research.
With that being said, it seems to me that once all these projects are completed the UK will have enough steam locomotives to run timetabled services again if things worked out.
The steam engine has the major advantage of being able to burn anything and I do hope these new builds are designed to take advantage of that.
Love this series, especially when it deals with some edgy subjects that result in upset apple carts. Such a shame...😎😎😎
6:00 I was watching a video a while back about rail lines in Alaska and they mention the "last train to nowhere", some small steam engines left in a field, that are the only survivors of the steam engines that used to be used on the elevated lines here in New York. One of the people interviewed said that, given their condition, it would be cheaper and easier to build a new one from scratch that to restore one.
Restore them to static display.
I totally agree with your points on the Barry 10 and new builds--the one thing I have an issue with, specifically with the county new build, is the fact that the 8F which donated its boiler was the only surviving LNER 8F (O6 I think they classed them as?). I totally understand that there was no hope of the 8F steaming again, but it just seems strange to throw away what in and of itself is a significant engine historically speaking-and in fact I think they cut the 8F's frames up some time ago, which is probably the worst part of the whole deal (at least if the frames were left one could in theory build the engine up again).
Bear in mind this is just my opinion: I totally support new builds, I just think we have to stop and consider he historic fleet we have too.
5550: new build that fixes issues... but it also some how got a original PRR coast to Coast from a decapod meaning it is made of some historical fabric.
Matt`s Mocs in a way though it's pointless. I remember when it was announced and the group's primary objective was to beat Mallard's speed record. 1) why try and beat that record when it is entirely impractical to do so in today's world? 2) what do you do with it afterwards and 3) where will you maintain it
clanline35028 you lay say that but the thing of it is not to beat the mallard but instead be the proof that many other locos have beaten it both before and after as the T1 was the fastest of the recorded but not publicly available records till now in museum archives from the Milwaukee road to the C&O. So it isn’t that it is beating a old record. Instead it is fixing a historical mistake. And you say that America can’t support it. Well look close and there are many places that maintain steam from as east coast as Steamtown to as far away as the California railroad Museum (they haven’t done any in awhile due to California law) and for operating just like the K4 project it will travel museum to museum and do main line (NS will be changing staff before the project is done, and CSX is becoming steam friendly) plus being new build just like our pal chris said means she can do what the other locos can’t. Now 425 of the RBMN does the most moving but that is because she doesn’t go too far and her owner throws money at her first and then the rest of the railroad but the 5550 can do the same but more because it doesn’t have its various age problems.
Matt`s Mocs however, even if some railroads opened their arms, the 5550 is much heavier and larger than say 425. I haven't heard about CSX becoming steam friendly and unlike the T1 Mallard's records and graphs showing her speed were available to the public from the beginning. If these T1 records exist, then how come the majority of people haven't 'heard the news' that Mallard's record was broken. If anything, I personally think you Americans are a bit jealous. Ps that wasn't aimed towards you, I love your channel and lego MOCs, keep it up!
clanline35028 the study on 5550 through old records show that the route availability is higher than that of a mountain type due to the some what articulation and flange placement. Although yes some lines can’t take that big of a loco those are few and far between as most railroads were built or rebuilt to a mikado as the smallest which the T1s are deemed slightly larger than such locos meaning they have higher routes. The tender (Coast To Coast) have open route on any part of the main line and branches today. Afterall those things went on to the pennsy’s smallest branch with the weakest tiny bridges (the Glen Lyon Branch) which is now long gone but the bridges can hole the weight. CSX steam friendly is from the Kentucky Steam Corporation and there clearance to the group to move about and into CSX territory including giving a old L&N facility to them. As for the record yes they are publicly available but most people don’t want to go to these archives and look at them unless they were me (yes I do go to archives for research because almost everything I need isn’t on the internet how ironic) now the reason why it was never openly said till now was due to the government of the US being Anti rail at the time of these occurrences. The railroads feared for there existence as the rules being put on them were nonsense such as the fact that the government would not allow them to profit (they figured railroads don’t need to profit and thus all profit should go to the government) so the idea a steam locomotive can go faster means the government is going to make law stating they have to go faster which even if you study mallard it fell apart after that trip, and when a loco wrecks from speed that goes to a huge fine to the railroads so when the occurrences happen such as 5509 run at 158 mph on the Ohio race track the pennsy immediately went to damage control changing time tables and claiming the speedometer in the lounge was busted. But the record was kept at Juniata and tested again and again on the rollers but kept secret as to not draw attention. Since Conrail breaking many of these rules in 1984 the records that survived and went to museums such as the RR museum of PA, B&O RR museum, and Steamtown NHS have long since been forgotten to history stored away in boxes and boxes of paper work. As those who remember it have passed on and those who care have no way to look unless they schedule a appointment. And jealousy isn’t what is important. The real point is to finally give some now long gone classes a peaceful rest knowing that they were not failures or over glorified but back to being what they are. People running machines in different ways. Afterall think 5550 is really gonna do it in its first run, no not without a skilled fireman and engineer like on that broadway limited in 1954 that got the speed. Also thank I need to post more and I will be checking out your content
Matt`s Mocs dude, thanks for subbing and bringing some light to the records. Personally, I feel that using Mallard's failure against it is a bit unfair, as that could happen to any locomotive at any time. In fact, 60007 Sir Nigel Gresley was recorded in the 60's doing well over 110 without any mechanical problems
Maybe when the new builds are done you should do construction stories of them. Just like the story you did for Flying Scotsman
Great idea.
Don't say that in the beginning, you always make good video, keep up the great work
I personally love that there’s steam locomotives that are being newly built for similar reasons that you’ve brought up but there is something you said that kind of confused me. What’s the problem with stepney? The way you phrased it makes it seem like the engine is just going to fall apart or something. I’m never able to find much information about his condition but all I’ve heard is about cracked cylinders a while ago.
They don’t want to modify the original engine,
Very good summary.
You know what really needs a new-build project? The SR Z (if it isn’t too expensive). They were the only steam shutters built by the SR.
I like the idea of new builds as it allows for the making of new members of classes that have gone extinct for heritage railways or mainline running.
In my personal opinion, I feel that steam new builds are both good and bad. The bad side being where more money goes into building the new replicas and not to locos waiting for restoration, but the good side being that the new builds are a way to revive a steam locomotive that no longer exists. It's like giving it a second chance at life, and allowing the new generation to see them. Also like it was previously mentioned, it allows the manufacture of new spare parts for already existing locomotives, and to test for new materials and technological advancements to increase efficiency
Well articulated Chris! Always enjoy these episodes on what you have to say.
I'll admit I'm one of those people who would love to see an E2 be built just so it can participate in DOWT events on a hieratage railway - which is precisely the very reason why it's never going to be built :P
Even if the E2 was made for such events only, I don't know how well the engine could perform on the usual heritage railway. A real under-performer as opposed to the little blue engine nowadays.
Christopher O'Shea There must be some way you can improve the efficiency and correct the faults in the design, just like people have done with classic cars. I remember the Triumph Stag used to have a few glitches when originally rolled out in the 70s but future classic car owners have fixed its ubiquitous flaws so they run like they were supposed to. Surely something like that can be done for the E2?
@@steam-powered-cyborg Well, that's one of the fun things of course. Many modern build locomotives try to fix the original issues, as stated in the video. We know what the E2's failings were, so in theory it should be possible to come up with solutions or at least ways to mitigate it.
Off the top of my head, its two main problems were its lack of fuel efficiency, small coal bunker, and its wheelbase being too long for the sharp curves in the harbours.
The wheelbase is a non-issue on heritage railways which lack those tight curves, a bunker extension shouldn't be too hard to deal with, and efficiency could possibly be improved with boiler or firebox adjustments alone.
The biggest problem when it comes to the idea of an E2 new build is that DOWT component - Mattel are dicks.
Have you heard of the T1 project over here in the US and if so what are your opinions on it?
That was fantastic thanks, rumours are going around that once the A1 trust has finished the p2 2007 Prince of Wales, they are looking to create a v4 (I think) bantom cock, the group who is building the patriot 5551 the unknown warrior has plans in place to build a fowler 2-64 tank, then there's a George the 5th 4-4-0, and I think there's plans for a gcr locomotive to be built
There were actually 2 quarry hunslets built in 2005: Statfold and Jack Lane
And a year before Dame Anne was built and exported to America.
Superbly well written as ever Chris, you did however miss the first New build, Iarl Merionedd of course!
Your points are, as far as I see it, spot on, any new build needs a sound business case as it needs to earn it's keep. Torpedo does that on the main line (A business case I wasn't entirely convinced of initially but one that seems to be working) 82045, Beachy Head and 6880 will earn most, if not all of theirs, from steaming fees on preserved lines or money allocated in lieu of a steaming fee, depending on each railways running agreements, however, some just don't fit the bill, as most of the preserved railways who would operate such locos need classes 4, 5 and 6 engines, with reasonable adhesion, so the bloomer, county tank etc are not up to the job, whilst the P2 and A1 are far to big to use them economically on such lines away from special events, meanwhile the main line really needs locos of class 6, 7 and 8 (This is where the P2 and A1 of course come into their own) and unfortunately this is where we have to allow our heads to rule our hearts, yes we all have locos which we would love to see again (Personally for me it would either be GWR number 4600 or one of the Wolverhampton built GWR locos such as a 517 or 2021) but if we can't both raise the interest and form a sustainable business case then they will remain just dreams.
If you go back far enough, Ravenglass & Eskdale's 'Northern Rock' came before EOM.
Another issue I've been thinking on as I've watched the New Build Wave build over the past couple of years is when will we potentially reach a saturation point? When will there simply be too many new builds to go around, either for money, support, resources, expertise, etc.? There are some where this concern probably won't apply to, particularly those being headed by established organizations like The A1 Trust or those being done by heritage railways themselves like the Bluebell Railway with Beachy Head or the Llangollen Railway with the Patriot and Grange projects. But others that are just starting out, like the Ex-NER G5, the Ex-GER F5, etc. seem to have slowed their progress in recent months due to donations drying up; Heck, I haven't heard a word about the BR Standard 6 "Hengist" project in ages. I've already seen a few projects die due to lack of interest and funds; in addition to the 2P you mentioned, there was one to build a new GWR Dean Goods awhile back, since the only one left is cooling its heels in the STEAM Museum in Swindon, aka "The Only Reason To Go To Swindon" :P . But that one fell to lack of interest and funds as well.
But there is a flip side to even the downside of new build projects drawing resources away from restorations: No new build will be "building" forever, and once they're finished and on the tracks the resources and workshop space allocated to them can be used for other projects. I've heard a fairly reliable rumor that once Beachy Head is finished and the Bluebell's new Atlantic House is free, they're planning on moving the Adams Radial in and getting her steaming again. Every cloud has a silver lining and all that.
The H2 could presumably get in a little bit of main line running. As I understand it, the Adams Radial was set aside because it is not powerful enough for the traffic. Perhaps it would be better to give it a cosmetic restoration and put it on display in a controlled environment.
That's not my understanding of the situation. In theory, the Adams would be about as strong as most of the engines in the Bluebell's fleet; the Terriers, the P Class, the SECR 0-6-0s, the Dukedog, etc. The main problem that's kept them from restoring the Adams up to now is the boiler; near as makes no difference it's basically the same one she was built with over 100 years ago (part of the reason 488 was chosen instead of the other surviving Radials; they'd had modified, slightly modernized boilers fitted while her's was close to the original Adams design). Problem is, apparently Adams included some unique design quirks that make repairing the current boiler impossible and make building a replacement boiler of the same design tricky. Add to that that at the moment the Bluebell simply doesn't have the shop space and she's left on static display. But, like say, I have it on decent-ish authority that once the Brighton Atlantic project is done, she'll be moving into the freed up shop space to begin the long, arduous process of returning to steam for the first time in about 30 years.
sirrliv I think Beachy Head might just visit heritage railways because by then we’ll have a Grange, a Patriot and possibly a Bloomer on the mainline at the time, along with other mainline approved locomotives.
@@brad2799 I agree with that sentiment. Except for the Bloomer; even if it is completed, and I believe it will be, it will never see the mainline. Setting aside the health and safety nightmare of a crew working in a fully open cab with barely a windscreen and no roof, she would be far too slow to fit any modern mainline timetable; that's why they're trying to get Tornado and other mainline touring engines up to 90 mph, so they won't cause delays to normal services on the increasingly crowded lined. For a Bloomer to get up to even the current limit of 75 mph would be impossible. That said, if she can generate enough pulling power, she could have a lively career touring heritage lines, being small and light enough to fit aboard a low loader truck with ease and reasonably cheap to run.
sirrliv the bloomer, as you said, is just a pure impossibility. It would never be allowed on the mainline due to the health and safety concerns that you raised, but even in a scenario where she could go mainline it’s illegal for her to go 75 (I highly doubt she would have the tractive effort to do it) because of the size of the driving wheels. The size of the wheels dictates the speed of the engine. Go on the RSSB website, it’s a good read. I can’t remember the exact numbers but you’ll be able to find out her max speed allowance by looking this up.
Great video Chris, I do disagree however about the argument that new builds are taking away money from existing restorations.
That statement assumes that person X would give say the £1000 they have given to say the P2 new build, to an existing restoration if the P2 project didn’t exist. That simply isn’t true, way I see it whether it’s new build or restoration I’m just happy steam locomotives being build/brought back to life.
Excellent and very valid. Some designs are scarcely viable commercially in model form let alone rebuild so need serious consideration of feasibility, even though I'd love to see a 'Leader'...!
I think it's fair to say that, while quite a few of the existing new-builds are nearing completion, there are several which are unlikely ever to result in a working engine. Amongst those I would list the Claud Hamilton, 61662 Manchester United, the Doncaster P2, and the BR 3MT Mogul no.77021. For a long time I'd also have listed the Clan amongst those, but that actually seems to be making decent progress now. Clearly, the two L1s and the Gresley J39 were never anything more than Facebook vapourware.
One new-built I'm quite looking forward to (It's already underway and is more that feasible) is the RPSI's NCC W class mogul, 105. It fills a slight gap in Northern Irish railway history, with only two broad gauge NCC engines left in existence and only one in running condition, it shares most components with Class WT No.4, and it helps the RPSI have multiple engines available for mainline use. While there is the argument that the money and effort could have been used to restore other parts of the collection, such as 461 or the GWSR 0-6-0s, but I still feel it's a justified project.
The US has its own problems with new builds. I’m all for a Pennsy T-1, but there’s only so many shortlines that can let something of that size run. It’s the medium sized engines we need over here, like a Reading I10SA, something that can haul but small enough for shortlines.
The saint is pretty much done!
It is now.
Here’s something that will get me disemboweled with a wooden cooking spoon...
I’d like to see a new build of 60510 “Robert the Bruce”
Railways were always about business so the real point is - what is the business case for thee neww engine. The answer for a lot of new builds is sentiment, and I can apperciate that. The business case for Tornado was mainline operation, deriving income from train tours, something a new build Rocket would fail to achieve. Thay probably explains the sucess of the A1 Trust - it made sense.
I like LMS Garratt. I also heard that some people are trying to make a replica of the BR class d16/1 diesels. It said it on Wikipedia, in the disposition.
8:17 oh come now....Well, I guess you're right. You can't get them all...
I was about to go off on a tangent on how a new E2 would bring all of our childhoods back, but then that would be utterly pointless.
But hey, at least it's not a Bullied Leader, amirite?
I'll see myself out.
amazing! this has got to be my favourite episode yet
I think done Well New Build are Great. But Some others Bulebell 4-4-2 Adams Radial Tank Last I hear is Still Waiting Overall. Some Loco are coming up 100 years (A3 Flying Scotsman Come to Mind and W 24 Calbourne is over the 100 year old and Isle of Wight Steam Railway got in 2MT tanks To take load of the Old Loco's. Love your work
Apart from the GCR which preserved railways will the P2 be suitable for.?
I think another factor spurring the whole new build thing is the uniqueness factor. Tornado has proved hugely sucessful, mainly cos she is the only A! around, and that has got many groups thinking that a unique loco such as a Patriot, Clan, Grange or whatever would attract more folks to their line, museum, rail tour etc than ANOTHER class five or 9F.
I'm in the works of starting a trust for a construction of a new Norfolk and Western Y6B.
You mean you made a social media group and you have no plan?
I think the use of modern roller bearings and other such improvements might be good for vintage engines as well as new build anything to help keep the long term costs down.
Id like to see new builds of carriges, imagine riding behind an a4 in an authentic replica of the silver jubilee carriges
I was only talking about this topic to a woman who worked at the Didcot Railway Centre
Has anybody been able to find out about any recent updates on the Bloomer? No news has really surfaced online that I've seen, and considering I've never been to England (I'm from America), I wouldn't be able to check on the progress myself.
I'd never heard of the Falcon project until I watched this video.
Occasional blurbs have been appearing on New Build Steam blog, but nothing concrete. If they did finish it, I could realistically see it being about as powerful and thus about as useful as, say, Furness Railway No. 20 or the Beattie Well Tanks, able to handle 2-3 Mk.1's on its own, maybe more Victorian 4-wheelers, not particularly beefy but great for drawing the crowds on a gala weekend.
The idea of its going mainline though... Yeah, no. Not a chance. I actually burst out laughing when I saw that in a Heritage Railway Magazine article about it. Setting aside that a rough estimate of its top speed might be about 50-60 mph would make it hopeless on the mainlines, can you imagine the conniption fits the Health & Safety folks would have at the idea of running an open cab Single on the main bloody line?! They're already pissed about purpose built mainline steamers running on the mainlines still, even moreso after Tornado's 90 mph failure earlier this year. You'd have to carry their frothing twitching bodies out on stretchers at the idea of crewmen standing in the open air, wind, soot, stones, and tree branches whipping through their faces as they delay every commuter service on the already overcrowded network.
Okay, yes, there was some exaggeration for comedic effect there, but the point stands. The Bloomer will likely be finished, it will have a good but niche interest in the preservation circuit, but it will never go mainline.
I quite agree with you, sirrliv. The Bloomer would never fit in on the mainline, let alone be cleared to run on it! If I was a heritage line owner, I would run it for brakevan specials, and that would most likely be it unless I had the right coaching stock.
Warrior Star The Bloomer’s construction progress ceased in 1990 at 90% complete. It moved to Tyseley and will be steamed soon.
The "Ship of Theseus" argument only complicates matters. How much can you replace on an old engine when you could build an entirely new engine of the same type and slap the old engine's name on it for less?
I'm pretty sure that Flying Scotsman is a new build at this point by that arguement.
NINTENDOSH LEGIT well, the frames are what give a loco it's identity, and already the front section has been replaced. Give it 50 years and they will keep a 1x1 cm squared section, just so it is still Scotsman!
clanline35028 If the frames are what gives a loco it's identity, what does that mean for the restoration of P Class 27 on the Bluebell, which due to the state of it's original frames has had an entirely new set built?
Is it a "New Build" as it has new frames, even though the wheels, and many things above the frames will be re-used?
Ross Patrick well that is the question. While in tradition it would be a replica/new build, eventually things like the frames will need replacing
Some old, restored locos are a bit like Trigger's Broom. Come to think of it, that's not a bad name for an engine...
P2 getting close 😃
So excited.
I'm from the future and .....Ive disappointing new for you
Imagine how mad Chris would be if someone built another leader class.
The whole episode i was terrified the T1 trust would be mentioned. LOL.
Although I think the idea of "Beating" the mallard is a somewhat ridiculous idea, it would be pretty neat to stand next to a real PRR T1 in person.
I was talking to a guy at the NYMR about the 9F 92134 which they completed. It came from Barry and had been passed around for years before any major progress was made. Anyway he said that only the original frames and wheels were useable, everything else was missing or too rotten. So really that 9F is not far off being a new-build. There was another 9F in the Barry 10 which has recently been scrapped for spares, because there is already plenty of other 9F’s in running condition. Sadly it’s frames are to be sectioned for a kids Museum interactive display, which I think is stupid because in say 100 years time those frames will be needed…
The last steam engine ever made by a railroad company was 4-8-4 red devil. She was built in the latest years of the 20th century, 1981 to be exact. That's one late year for railroads to build steam engines.
Zane fraser railways is Britain. I don’t know the South African term.
Still waiting for the Bloomer, I've been checking for updates on its build for ten or more years now.
The engines of the 21st century in the US are Replica of Central Pacific Leviathan, Steam into (I forgot) #17, Pennsylvania Railroad T1 5550, and a few others with one cancelled New York Central J1a
And it would be unusual to see the US build a Garratt Locomotive. As we in the States never built a Garratt Locomotive
I’ve heard of the construction of standard class 6 pacific 72010 hengist, but so far, what I’ve seen of the progress of the project, was a smoke box and cab. But I’m looking foreword to the completed engine in the years to come, alongside the standard 7s and the duke of Gloucester too.
From what I've heard and read, that's where a lot of new build projects get to. A cab shell is easily manufactured from sheet metal and looks reasonably impressive. I think it may be a ploy to encourage new investors.
The Clan project has started frame assembly with all frame components and bogie components on site. The cylinder patterns are also being made. I believe the wheels will follow after frame assembly. Check out their website www.theclanproject.org
You make a lot of good points. However, main line running is not the only potential use for a new-build loco. I can see heritage lines thinking that smaller (and more economical) locos might suit their low speeds and short distances very well.
Is the Brighton Belle still happening? I know that's a restoration project not a new build, but even so surely has commercial value.
Martin Tyler that’s an EMU. Chris only talks about steam locomotives.