If you ask me, variety is always welcome in preservation, especially considering that liveries aren't a regulated standard anymore. While I do like certain BR liveries, such as BR Blue, BR Lined Black, and the experimental BR Violet, the prewar era had a lot more uniqueness in the engines and liveries they wore. Does that mean that a somewhat modern engine can't wear a prewar or pre-grouping livery? Not by any means! A Fairburn in Caledonian Blue? Sure! You could even slap Malachite Green on a rebuilt Bulleid, and I'd still be happy! In short, any livery works. As long as it's not something completely ghastly and disgusting, you'll have no complaints from me.
There's too much black. Then again I love the Southern rail road 630 paint scheme of black and the 4501 does Great in black but does have some I have a Ryobi I'd like to see if the old one back in green myself
Oh him yeah also Britain that you have a lot of variety you have the BR black BR blue PPR maroon a PR or brown with green hundred and you have variety but then again none of us want to see a pink black five
Zephyr4501 Now this may sound weird coming from an American, but I hate the idea of a rebuilt light pacific in SR Malachite Green. Malachite Green should be left to the unrebuilt to carry the torch. Standard BR engines? Leave the 4MTs in green or black.
As someone who works for an American Railway museum I assure you it very much is. Maybe not allover colours like here, but many debates involve what lettering should be used, whitewalls or not, silver vs grey smokebox, what whistle will it wear, and for certain locomotives: what colour (Southern 4501, R&N 425, D&RGW 473), and what era will it be restored too (kerosene headlamp and old style vs 1930s, for example).
Jacob Woods that reminds me, I heard a humorous story on an old TM video about Lionel’s Hudson’s, apparently when Lionel re-released the 773 Hudson the first time, it had a plastic tender lettered Pennsylvania. In the wrong font. Then they tried to really cheaply re stamp it with New York Central, which was also the wrong font.
I always find the pregrouping liveries to be more eye catching as well as looking more handsome then midland compound (even though it's in a pregrouping livery).
I can't see how you have a problem with BR black. When BR black is basically the same shade as LMS black, LNER black, GWR black and SR black. Apart from the numbers and lettering there are the same. Most locomotives were black during the war and most were not change until early BR days.
I don't really care what colour the loco is painted as long as the loco is working and looks good after all there were a lot that did not escape the cutters torch
@@raymondleggs5508 1: What’s wrong with replying to an older comment? 2: Like what? What is supposed to be wrong on that Mogul (I can’t tell if it’s a 2-6-0, or an 0-6-0.
I'm very much for Less BR liveries. I feel that most Pre-Grouping locos should be paint in their Pre-Grouping liveries, because as you said there were so many colourful liveries about. I also don't mind the Odd loco paint in an unauthentic livery, if it's eye catching. I'd also love to see more locos painted in Post Grouping liveries as there are quite a few nice ones. But BR Black and Green should still be represented on some of the locos. I do quite like Mixed Traffic lined black, especially on 2MTs & Black 5s. So in short, less BR (where possible).
It's definitely the owners choice. I belong to a steam preservation group here in New Zealand and they have made a couple of changes (well, one I can think of) to some/one of their locos which would have you UK types pulling your hair out but hey, it's the owners choice.
What gets me is when railways run 14xx locos with autocoaches, and the liveries do not much. Loco is painted in GWR colours, but the coach is in a BR livery, or the other way round.
Actually, none of the a4's carry Doncaster green any more, th e closest any of them come is union of South Africa and Dwight D. Eisenhower in BR Brunswick.
Actually some A4s did carry apple green, but none of those survive - unless you count Dominion of Canada when it was initially named Woodcock before being painted in garter blue when renamed Dominion of Canada.
This happens regularly in the US, especially in regards to the diesel engines that have been preserved. Several F units which were operated well into the 1980's and partially the 1990's were repainted in an array of colors they never wore in revenue service (example would be C&O #8016 at the North Carolina Transportation Museum. The engine was originally Clinchfield #800 before being purchased by the C&O Historical Society) It also happens occasionally with our steam engines. Milwaukee Road 261 was dressed up as a Lackawanna Pocono for several months while at Steamtown in Scranton, PA, complete with bell, whistle, and air horn from an original class member. Also, because most engines were painted simply black, you can get magnets and stickers to apply to an engine for something short. I mainly saw this with a photo charter on the Black River and Western Railroad in New Jersey, when they placed magnets on the tender and cab of the engine to replicate what #60 looked like running on the Great Western in Colorado.
Gauging the issue myself here, Ireland is proof that, if people care and love the engines enough, the livery needn't be a massive issue. DSER 15/GSR 461 is currently running in CIÉ Green (a livery she never carried at work), running for the most part with 1960s Cravens carriages (which rarely, if ever saw steam haulage), which themselves are carrying a GNR(I) inspired livery and Railway Preservation Society of Ireland (RPSI) crests...and we LOVE IT! :D
I'm keen to have more pre BR liveries. As stated in the video, there's so much black that sometimes you forget the colour. Chris, An idea for a future video in the series. The livery debate, but for Preserved Diesel locomotives and Multiple units, as this can cause just as much wibble. Looking forward to the next episode!
He only talks about steam engines, but I do wish to see more pre-grouping liveries. The two LSWR Beattie Well Tanks in preservation are both in BR black. I wouldn’t mind one of them in an LSWR livery like chocolate and cream.
I have a huge thing for pre-grouping liveries: Marsh Umber, GER blue, the GN&SR Pannier livery, LNWR black, GCR Green and LSWR mint and chocolate. It makes locos look so much more appealing and allows a greater variety not found in BR black.
I like BR livery on my BR models normally, but I couldn't resist some pre-grouping ones. I think there should be room for both. And I think agree with you it's the owners progative at the end of the day. I just wish people wouldn't get cross about it.I remember people got cross when the Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway 0-6-0 at the KWVR was restored in to L&YR passenger livery.... EVEN THOUGH it was historically correct. But the owners found that no one moaned when the original cast iron chimney was scraped an replaced with a modern steel one. No one seems to think without going mad at times. That Red 8F happened in part I led to believe (could be wrong) in when the engine had a red 'undercoat' applied, and the owners joked about being MS red. But people threw a wobbler and made the owners decided to go though with it. Can not be people be happy that the engine is running? I hated the red applied to Olton Hall but with out the Potter Money would have WCR had the means to get 'Scots Guardsman' and 'Galetta' running again. I don't understand the human nature at times...
Recently found your channel and I have to say it’s exactly what I’ve been looking for as a rail enthusiast. Finally someone going with skills when it comes to presentation. I wish I had known of your channel sooner
Bravo, Chris. As a huge Moviebob fan myself (except his movie reviews, which I feel often miss the mark and in some rare cases come off as him parroting the mainstream critics rather than seeing the movie himself), I think you nailed his delivery method for the old Big Picture series and his newer In Bob We Trust series perfectly, and in a way that really works for what you want to do with it. Excellent work, sir. Also, using artwork of yourself (mostly. I caught that "Northwest Frontier" reference in there, and good show for acknowledging that cracking little film exists) for the reactions was a nice touch to make the thing your own. As for the livery debate, I'm of two minds. On the one hand, I definitely get what you're saying about BR liveries being more authentic and feeling more immersive; most preserved railways do seem to try and model themselves on how things would have looked during BR times, using mostly BR stock. There are a few notable exceptions; the Bluebell Railway seems to have done a fantastic job of capturing multiple different eras at each of its stations, from the more BR reminiscent style of the new East Grinstead terminus to the Southern (the old, good one) era at Kingscote and Horsted Keynes, even the LBSCR days at Sheffield Park. The West Somerset and the Severn Valley also seem intent on turning the clock back to the days of the GWR. But for the most part, you're right; BR is what we have left, BR is what most of the old bashers remember, so BR is what we get. On the other hand, I won't deny that having everything be black is a serious disappointment, especially for foreign enthusiasts. You guys have it good over there with even having those touches of green. Here in the USA, we get plain, non-glossy black and that's pretty much it, maybe spiced up with a silver smokebox here and there, but for the most part black is it. There are a couple exceptions to that rule; the Southern Pacific "Daylight" trains, including #4449 had their orange liveries, the Southern Railroad had their green, and the Norfolk & Western and Canadian Pacific threw in some maroon with the black, but for the most part American steam locomotives are just plain flat black. So bearing that in mind, I'll always jump on a British engine that's not the same old black, even if it's just Brunswick Green. And here's a point to think about: Perservation of rolling stock in their original, authentic liveries is all well and good, but what about the liveries themselves? Shouldn't the old liveries be preserved as well? Not just for engines, but for coaching stock as well. We don't have all that many pre-BR coaches left either, while we have bazillions of Mk.I's floating around, so many that some are being turned into restaurants and B&B's with nobody batting an eye. And let's not forget that the Mk.I came about as a collection of the best coach design ideas from all of the Big Four companies. So really, it wouldn't be too much of an eyesore to turn out a Mk.I in, say, LMS Crimson Lake Lined, or Southern Maunsell Green, or GWR Chocolate & Cream (the pre-war version, not BR's cheap imitation), or... Okay, LNER Teak would take some work, but you get my point. On the other other hand, there is a pretty good argument against some of these older liveries, especially the pre-grouping ones: The more intricate you get, the more of a pain in the ass it is for the painters. Remember, somebody's got to hold that brush and labor for hours, days, perhaps even a week or more on the more elaborate liveries, while just spraying on black or dark green and stenciling some lines on is so much easier and thus more cost-effective. P.S. Yes, I still need a freaking editor. Or my own UA-cam series to respond to your UA-cam series ;P
*one of three locos to run in caledonian railway livery since the 90s. The 0-6-0, the 4-4-0 and the odd ball, the barlcay saddle tank which I used to dispose moat sundays for some time.
I would definitely like to see more pre-war and Victorian liveries, but some suit post-war colors better. I think it's more of a case-by-case situation, but it ultimately comes down to what the owners decide to do.
I think as you said in the it all depends of type of class and region it is from which I agree. but however some engines who are nearly hitting the century mark should be restored to the ex work liveries to give a good history and insight for the next younger generation on what is was like when the specific locomotive was work in that period.
I'm all up for a variety of colours the heritage railways main kind of customers are family's and what is going to attract family's is pretty grouping and grouping liverys because they are bright if we want to keep the preservation movement we need to be able to keep attracting familys
We Americans have some beautifully painted locomotives, some which include 119, Jupiter, number 7 at Greenfield Village, Leviathan, 4449 (in both it's Daylight and American Freedom Train liveries), 611, soon to be built 5550, any Eureka and Palisade locomotive, Crescent Limited, Blue Comet, Royal Blue, Hiawatha, and John Bull
Great video, albeit a can of worms. I would love to see locomotives in a variety of different colors. A Castle in Crimson Lake or BR Blue, a Black 5 in GWR Green or any other pre-grouping color. And though I'm all for historical accuracy, a livery isn't a permanent thing. Might we be able to block the memories for a short time and just ask ourselves without any attachments: "How does this locomotive look in this color?" Nothing more, nothing less. Alas, I digress. I honestly believe that our "livery problem" should be the least of our worries. I'm glad that we're so blessed to have so many locomotives left in the first place. As long as we have steam locomotives operating, I'm happy! (I think a yellow Castle with appropriate black or red lining would look amazing!) :P
@@CW56 I make this point for the Terriers. There are 10, and you can have them in almost any livery. Keep 1 in BR Black, but Bodiam looks gorgeous in KESR Blue, and LSWR or FYN liveries would look great on one of the IoW terriers (I forget which one would've actually carried them.) There are quite a few in LBSC Improved Engine Green, which works on Waddon and Boxhill, but is inauthentic on Stepney, because he is an A1x. If he was an A1 would be fine, but he is in an 1890s condition with an 1870s livery. This is point I've never seen raised, as everyone seems to go with Stepney being ochre, and I must say it suits her fine, but it's of doubtful authenticity.
I'm so glad Improved Engine Green (and Stepney by extension) got a mention here. I think it's a beautiful livery, and I would love to see Stepney painted that way again. (Also; that tiny glimpse of Fenchurch at 8:11 is nice. :) )
Southern Railroad #4501 was once painted in the famous Green n' Gold livery from 1966 - 1996. This livery was based on the UK Southern Railway's green livery, with a different shade of green kinda similar to LNER engines.
I think liveries can make or break a locomotive, for example I love seeing mallard in its sky blue color and flying scotsman in its LNER Apple green. Then I also love seeing terriers in improved engine green.
Brillant idea and very good, I totally agree with this! Would love to see some locos in different liverys like a WD 2-10-0 in LNER/LMS Black or WD Grey! Just an example, BR is just used a lot these days and I think that the pre war engines should be able to go in a different livery i mean what about having 60009, 60019 and Mallard all in LNER Blue now that would be a sight to see!!! And I think fictional liverys work up to an extent I mean a Jinty in Thomas Blue doesn't look awful! So yeah more different liverys yes please!!!
The only none GWR engines that can where that are terriers and Pre-Grouping Western Region stuff. (Just my opinion, and now you mention i can see a black five looking quite handsome in dark green.)
brilliant Chris, I agree 100% I'm always fed up of seeing br liveried locomotives, (svr voulunteer btw) and it's nice to see locos in something different, one of the reasons why I love 2857 is because of her gwr livery, IV been helping with her winter maintenance recently, also love that how the Beatle and queen appear in this it's actually music
Nice one Chris there had been debates on where which livery Tornado should wear many people preferred her in BR Express Passenger Blue because some of the A1 trust liked it but someone much loved her in BR Apple Green but I don't complain in the MNLPS we asked ourselves which livery for Clan Line will it be after overhaul but everyone decided BR Green because it suits her in preservation hopefully the next issue will be about the locomotive names
Thanks for an enjoyable video, just found it! Thank you for your comments re Caledonian Railway 828 based at the Strathspey Railway. I painted & lined out the loco at Aviemore in 2010. It should be stressed that the work involved in painting the loco pales into insignificance compared to the engineering work involved in overhauling & maintaining it. The good news is that LMS Black Five No 5025, also at Aviemore will carry full LMS livery when it’s overhaul is complete. By the way folks, be wary of the so-called ‘BR Brunswick Green’. BR never used ‘Brunswick Green’, it’s a trainspotter term. There are many instances of preservationists painting their locos in this incorrect lighter shade. The correct shade is BS 381c ‘Deep Bronze Green’. Thanks!
Personally, I'd paint each engine in either their pre-grouping or Big 4 colours with BR numbering and crest with letters BR either side. A hybrid livery, if you will.
Actually, to add to your point about how some liveries become part of an engine's identity, I would argue that LNER Apple Green has become a part of Flying Scotsman's identity. She wore that livery for a considerable amount of time on the LNER, and even for a period on BR, however, it was in preservation that was when the livery became so famous on Scotsman: It was the livery that Alan Pegler (her first owner) restored her in, It was the livery she wore when she went to the USA in 1969, and she also wore that livery when she went to Australia in 1988. That's not to say that she can't wear any other livery, but Apple Green has become so synonymous with Flying Scotsman that it's hard to imagine her in any other livery.
If it's appropriate, I'm all for it. I'd love for the Midland & Great Northern Joint Railway Society to trial one of their engines in M&GNJR Autumn Leaf. And it's my understanding that there are three Black Fives around who'd not be too inaccurate in S&DJR Prussian Blue. To my mind, this is the era of preservation; anything is plausible.
What locomotive would you have repainted? There are no survivors from the M&GN. Lol I talked to the people at the NNR and they said they would new build a M&GN loco if they had the money 😂
The issue also crops up when it comes to rolling stock. Across the sea it ended up costing a whole team of volunteers from the hate the blue with yellow stripe craven livery got. I'm of the opinion liveries don't matter that much, sure some photographers will be pissed, but really their pretty pictures don't actually translate to revenue. It's more important an engine, coach or truck is persevered and preferably in working condition that what colour it is.
An interesting discussion series for railfans, good series to watch while I'm waiting for the next SLIP. And a fascinating topic to start with. Keep up the good work Chris.
If I had the kind of money to run my own line, I'd repaint the Loco's once every few months in different liveries, fictional liveries (harry potter, dino safari from hornby, etc), and even entirely made up paint schemes (Eg, "go nuts" to the artist to create entirely unique engines)
Nice concept for a series. Interested to see what topics it'll bring to the table. This is a good starting point as far as I'm concerned because it's one I've actually had discussions about previously. On a short volunteering stint during November 2015 myself and one of the other volunteers had a discussion about the upcoming repaint of Fairlie locomotive 'David Lloyd George'. Being of the mindset that something different/non-standard could be an interesting idea I put the idea forward that she could be painted dark blue*. This suggestion was shot down in flame by my fellow volunteer he being very much of the mindset that non-standard things was an awful idea! *and yes I suggested this so it would resemble the character from Thomas & Friends... don't judge me! Incidentally when I had a similar conversation with one of the staff members at Boston Lodge he said that they wouldn't have been able to do that anyway due to copyright reasons, which is fair enough. Although I don't feel like the copyright holders would care very much, they haven't touched 'Mighty-Mac' since 2008!
Great video Chris, I for one would like to see more of these videos please. On the debate in hand I quite like BR black with early unicycling lion totem, I think it looks quite smart. I was born in the Eighties and remember the days of BR blue and grey livery (YUCK!) so I don't really fit into that group who remembers operational mainline steam. I'd quite like to see one of the big LMS pacifics in wartime black with the straw coloured numerals and lettering but I'm weird like that. I think that the Turkish 8F that was repatriated to Scotland last year should be restored in Turkish Railways colours that its worn its entire life as it would certainly be a bit different from everything else on the UK preservation scene.
A very well done video there, and to be honest you have put the argument very well. I agree with you on pretty well every point you make. What I would like to add is this, 95% of preserved railways market these days are not enthusiasts, so the bright colours of the pre 1948, or even more so pre 1923 liveries are a huge selling point. BR black is a smart livery when kept spotlessly clean, however, it is the worst livery to keep looking smart. The final point from my point of view is that I'm footplate crew, and at the end of the day, it's the mechanical condition of the loco that matters more to me than the colour of the paint, but thats probably a different debate.
In Australia liveries, pretty much followed global standards... it was Black, Woodlands Green, Apple Green, Canadian Pacific Red, Royal Blue.... and Primer Grey, with Red, Yellow, White lining. The Victorian Railways S class (streamlined) steam class was in Royal Blue with Sulphur Yellow (Gold) highlights, the Tasmanian R class was visually similar on a 3'6" gauge in Woodlands Green and Silver, instead of 5'3", and two cylinders vs three. The New South Wales Government Railway 38 class in "streamlined" form was Apple Green with Gold highlighting, but was originally all over grey, nicknamed Grey Nurse, after the Shark.
i have always found pre grouping liveries to be more eye catching like you said it gets peoples attention. i do agree that when a loco was built should be considered when choosing a livery. I have been to galas in past where every loco was in BR black and can get a bit boring after a while. variety is the spice of life as they say.
I honestly prefer the pre grouping and grouping liveries to BR personally. I always preferred bright colours to darker ones, which is why I love Friendship is Magic due to it being so bright coloured. If it was in charge of British Railways, I would have had had each region keep their own unique colours (e.g. LNER Garter Blue and Apple Green, Great Western and Southern Railways Light Green, LMS Bright Red), but just have The BR Logo instead of their own separate ones.
I like colour. I am not that concerned about historical accuracy unless it is specific, as in a film or preservation setting where everything has an historical intention. Well presented and enjoyable. Barry. Devon. (amateur and slow LMS modeller).
One good example of variety was the Highland Railway Jones Goods and the GNSR no.49 Gordon Highlander. The Jones Goods was in HR green during service, but when she was used in preservation in 1959, she was painted stroudley yellow, and Gordon Highlander was originally painted black, yet she was painted in that eyecatching shade of green. It really goes to show that sky's the limit with paint schemes in preservation.
Amazing video, and a good idea to reach for this market! Very well edited and the images chosen consistently matched the commentary I especially love the caricatures of you that featured throughout. As for the livery debate, I am all for variety. But you have to admit, it does look a little strange to see a Pre-Grouping N Class pull up alongside a BR liveried 04.
Great review, my only criticism sadly is the mugshot drawings, I had to look away from some as they were a little off putting. With a bit of tweaking, they could be more enjoyable.
Here in the states, Southern green was briefly applied to 722 630 and 4501 Lionel and MTh did various colors of steam Heritage units are popular On a similar note, some engines were (and are artistically depicted) dressed as from other railroads or as previous or later versions
Elliott Lewandowski I'd rather have it in 1923 condition (apart from unrebuilding it),Apple green - smoke deflectors with the old number (1472) with a GNR Coal-line tender in or Scotsman in BR blue without deflectors
You know the thing that completely baffles me? Why has Scotsman never been turned out to look like one of her sisters, like Papyrus, or Humorist, or Brown Jack? That way they can have her in A3 Condition, in LNER Doncaster Green, and have it be authentic.
I like the idea for a series of videos to trigger discussions about subjects. Not only for the enthusiastn to shed their opinions but also as a source for people being concerned with the subject to find out how the public opinion is oriented. In case of the livery discussion: for the owners of locomotives it can be used as a guide how the public would see their locomotive come out after a repaint/overhaul. I would like to see more locos in the big four liveries, but in general the problem with pre BR color schemes is the non availability of pre BR coaching stock, as most railways don't have these. Only big exception is the SVR, which has a complete set of stock for LMS, GWR and LNER railways, in appropriate liveries (altough even some of these coaches were built in BR days) A handfull of other railways can show one or 2 sets, but most railways have to rely on BR MKI stock, and even these are difficult to come by today, the newer of our preserved lines have to use MKII stock, sometimes even in aircon variants (which is a complete no for the enthusiast, where is the experience if only 4 small windows at the carriage ends open?) The SVR for instance could repaint their flying pig (Ivatt 4MT) in LMS black, altough just a handfull of the machines entered service with LMS numbers. But one of the nice LNER loco's on long term hire?, like the only preserved B12, or the D49, in apple green would look good on the teak set.
We need to see less engines in BR colours. COUGH! Union of South Africa. Also we need to see more Black5s in LMS lined black. maybe Bittern could be in Crimson lake when she's restored. I'm being serious.
Nifty. Personally speaking, I prefer Big-4 and pre-grouping liveries on most British steam locomotives. It's because of the stunning colors and 4-digit road numbers. The only real exeptions that make BR liveries look good to me are GWR locomotives and Bulleid's locomotives for the Southern. GWR locomotives get away with it because they get to retain their 4-digit road numbers from the days of the GWR and some look striking. To give some examples: 5972 Olton Hall and 6023 King Edward II. One is bright red, the other is royal blue, both look gorgeous. Heck, I've seen the King last summer so I know it looks stunning in blue. And Bulleid's locomotives get away with BR liveries because his Pacifics can look very smart in BR colors, more so if the paint is fresh. And also, because Bulleid's locomotives actually had better and tidier than the Continental road numbers they had. Instead of CX for the Q2s and 21CXXX for the Bulleid Pacifics (Merchant Navys, West Countries and BOBs), you had the 33000 for the Q1s, the 34000 series for the West Countrues an BOBs (Battle of Britain Pacifics) and the 35000 series for the Merchant Navys. Heck, I even love the look of Flying Scotsman as LNER 4472 with the BR modifications. Even if it isn't historically accurate, I think it looks sensational. And my PC froze up and shut itself several times down while writing this comment, so I had to resort to our laptop downstairs... =_=
The BR colours are authentic as all engines worn them when working under BR. The first colours there were painted does not mean that they are only colours there should wear. Every machine does not were the same colour for it's full working career. The BR green come from the great western green as they're different shades. BR black is basically the same shade as LMS black, LNER black, GWR black and SR black. Apart from the numbers and lettering there are the same. Most locomotives were black during the war and most were not change until early BR days.
I am only stating my opinion and there is no rule that says I can't. There is nothing wrong with having a conversation and it is not going to hurt to. Listening people opinions and looking at it from a different view point. I never said you were not allowed a opinion and if you don't want listen to peoples opinions. Then why be on the internet and we talking about steam locomotives. It is not competition to be the prettiest and them siting around. There are meant to pulling trains with happy people. The colour should not stop people from enjoying them and most the general public don't care what colour it is. Apart from Thomas The Tank Engine.
I love the concept for this show, and think it can (and so far is) executed pretty well. As for the livery debate, as a Yank, we don't really have this issue, mostly on short preserved lines like the Strasburg Railroad, which still keeps it relatively authentic to its original railroad. Reading & Northern 425 is really the only steam locomotive left (post 2010) with an original / non-authentic livery that is well known more than its origins.
A good point about liveries. Whilst the locomotive owners are free to paint their locos however they like, it is getting boring seeing nothing but BR green or black all the time. An example is Union of South Africa, which has worn BR green since 1952. The A4s looked dull and drab in BR green, whereas they looked superb in LNER garter blue and BR blue. Because of this, 60009 just doesn't capture my imagination as much as Mallard, Bitten & Sir Nigel Gresley do. Concerning locos painted in liveries that are inaccurate to their current condition, I don't mind if it looks ok, e.g. Canadian Pacific in BR blue despite been in rebuilt condition. Historically inaccurate, but looked good and it could have happened if BR hadn't abandoned the blue livery. In contrast, Flying Scotsman in apple green but with double chimney & smoke deflectors looked awful and I'm glad the NRM has consigned that to history. Regarding Black Fives, its worth noting that in 1948, BR experimentally painted some in apple green, and in the early '70's, some preserved examples were painted BR green.
On the Llangollen railway, 7754 is being overhauled. That engine was used by the NCB, and was painted in NCB green, with red side rods, which I think it should be painted in when it returns to steam. Luckily the man in charge of overhauling it, is my friend's father, so I can persuade him.
Coming from a nation that followed the Henry Ford motto (any color of the rainbow, so long as it's black), I have had slight experience with British steam locos on a trip to the UK last summer. From what I saw and read about in books, my idea is that livery is more on line with fashion: depends on year, model, and region. Any color can work, except for white, purple, pink, orange, and neon.
This is all I have to say, in the era of preservation, paint shouldn't matter unless it's far beyond obvious that it doesn't suit the engine in any way. Not including being a little fun and doing fictional paint schemes or swapping railroads. We do that a lot in the US. For example, we have a steam locomotive that'll return this year. Chesapeake & Ohio 1309 is now owned by the Western Maryland Scenic Railroad. However, she won't be painted in the original C&O lettering. Instead Western Maryland paint, similar to what they did with a former Lake Superior and Ishpeming #34, now numbered as 734. While it's not historically accurate for a Baldwin 2-6-6-2 that was specifically made for the C&O to wear Western Maryland paint, it's actually really interesting and it promotes the railroad itself.
Silas Fatchett Right, it helps identify the company when you see it on the tracks. If you see (in a U.S.A. perspective) a Pennsylvania diesel with Reading Company coaches and a B&O caboose, you won't know at all what railroad just went by, especially if the railroad's actual name isn't on most if any of the equipment. I understand why there is so much BR on locos for historical accuracy, but for most cases I feel that they should be lettered for the tourist railroad/preservation line that they work for as they aren't BR locos anymore, and there lines should be proud to have their name on the engine as a saying of "look what we have" (we have exceptions in the U.S. too like our main line steamers or for photo specials, but for the majority of preserved running steam in the United States my argument stands).
Case in point from the other side of the pond. Southern Railway #4501. Originally black with white pin stripes when built new in 1911. Relettered as Kentucky & Tennessee #12 from 1948 till 1964. Painted "Virginia Green" with Gold Leaf lettering (Southern's passenger scheme) from 1966 till 1996 (minus repainting for periodic movie roles). In 1996 it was painted in original colors of black with white stripes as a freight engine. Following a $1.5 million restoration that was completed in 2014, the engine came out black, which sparked controversy between people saying it should be green, but others saying it should be black. Having helped restore the engine, plus being a regular fireman on it, I'm all for historical authenticity (ignoring the addition of the mechanical stoker and feedwater heater during this rebuild), but it's not a freight engine anymore, so I understand the want for green. But I'm just glad to see it running. Paint or livery doesn't determine the operating condition of a locomotive, and people just need to be thankful that preservation groups are around to keep these machines in working order so younger generations can experience what it is like to ride behind a vintage steam locomotive.
In Australia, we had locos consistently turned out in a completely inaccurate Prussian Blue for 20 years, and not a single person complained. Change it to standard black, and suddenly the whiny armchairs invade.
There was a similar locomotive to the 8F on the LNER called the O6, some were even loaned to the LMS and reclassified as 8Fs. Sadly none survive, but one LNER-built 8F 48518 did survive via Barry scrapyard (albeit without it’s tender), but it was sadly dismantled and the boiler is being used for the new GWR County Class and some other parts are being used in the new Patriot.
By contrast to many on here, I actually quite enjoyed the drawings of your face, Chris. The topic is an interesting one. I have to say, I'm on the side of painting the locomotives in more colourful liveries, so long as they were built before BR. However, as you said, at the end of the day, it's up to the owner.
I'm from Slovenia, formerly Yugoslavia. We never had any locomotives made in Slovenia, instead we had imported locos from Austria, Germany, Hungary and even got a bit of captured Italian stuff after WW2. 99% of our locos wore plain black with red wheels, running boards and some other bits, withh a bit of white here and there. Notable exceptions include a bit of yellow lining here, some stars and Yugoslavian railways crests there, a blue livery for class 11s (MAV 424) on Marshall Tito's Blue Train and a few odd liveries on industrial engines - like plain green on S100 copy number 62-121. Personal experience - I heard people talk smack about that one time locomotive 18-005 was repainted into an unprototypical bright green in excursion train service, but at the same time, I never heard anyone complain about the engines 33-037 (DRB 52 Kriegslok), and 25-026 (BBO 270 class) wearing unprototypical lined black way back then. But this could just be that one was really atrocious, and the other was just a nice bit of extra styling that helped the visual esthetic? Who's to say? I never asked anyone. And in this Facebook group I'm in, "What-If and Never-Were British Steam locomotives", we constantly make new unprtotypical photoshops that would make a purist commit a hate crime. Like that one time I took some experimental German locomotive (19 1001), put a Leader cab on it and repainted it into the IC Sparrow livery, or the time I gave the 9F the driving wheels and motion of the French SNCF 151A, to a reception of laughs, being at a loss for words and "my eyes, they burn!". There's a lot of fun to be had with liveries and unprotoypicality, but the question remains, where do you draw the line? When I walk into the railway museum in Ljubljana, I'm always happy to see the KKStB class 73 in KKStB white and yellow lined black, the Blue Train class 11 in yellow lined blue (duh) and our oldest locomotive, Sudbahn number 718, in bright green. All are prototypical and really help spice up the collection, which would otherwise consist of a lot of plain black, red and white. Given the already low attendance at the museum, making things look different helps, I suspect. Even today, Slovenian Railways has a wide variety of different train liveries - white lined blue, red, yellow lined red. yellow lined green, white lined green, green, et cetera, and coupling that with visiting foreign locomotives and leased power, there's en excellent wealth of different liveries, if you know where to look. If I ever ran my very own heritage line, I would try to have as many different liveres as possible on my locos. But I'd keep them protoypical, or at least give them tasteful little additions like simple lining. I'm Aljaž, and i'm here to write comments on Gauge The Issue, I guess. *_cue GTI outro music_*
Great first episode, Chris! I'd love to submit some topics for debate if you'd like. This whole livery debate reminds me of the stir that N&W #611's "Spirit of Roanoke" logo generated when it was put on under the cab windows. I remember that fans initially complained about historical accuracy, so much so that one of the original members of the Fire Up 611 committee left over the issue! But honestly, look at this picture of the cab -> img00.deviantart.net/3615/i/2015/206/6/9/driving_the_spirit_of_roanoke_by_rlkitterman-d92suq2.jpg From a distance, the lettering doesn't make that big of a difference in photos. It's only when you get up close that people notice it. This meme sums up my position perfectly (and yes, 611 had ditch lights on it in a few restoration photos as a joke): cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/folder730/62390730.jpg
I almost want to say I don't care about liveries; I just like steam engines. But I do have some I prefer; but I'm not likely to make a fuss if I don't get my preferences. I will, however be very happy if I do get them. For example- Stepney. I would have been a little disappointed if she was in her black livery when I visited, but I would have still been glad to see her. However, I was very happy to see her in her goldenrod/"improved green" livery that I saw her/him in in the Railway Series and Thomas & Friends. (Don't judge me; that "little blue embarrassment" is what spring-boarded my interest in UK locomotives!)
Essential viewing Chris. Ok, Preserved diesels. here in Australia a preserved Diesel almost always get repainted in it's original colour, even if modified. So some colour liveries later than the original , but also superseded are ignored, angering a few.This situation seem to fit in well with your bit.
interesting video Chris, personally for pre-BR liveries if the railway has the stock to match the livery then great and as you say owner's choice at the end of the day. Having fired a fictionally liveried loco, the amount of abuse the poor old girl received was unbelievable and made me quite defensive of her. As for 6201, I notice that due to misfortune they are now appealing for £40,000 I for one would be more willing to contribute if there was a chance to see her for a short period in BR green... (now that's another can of worms)
If you ask me, variety is always welcome in preservation, especially considering that liveries aren't a regulated standard anymore. While I do like certain BR liveries, such as BR Blue, BR Lined Black, and the experimental BR Violet, the prewar era had a lot more uniqueness in the engines and liveries they wore. Does that mean that a somewhat modern engine can't wear a prewar or pre-grouping livery? Not by any means! A Fairburn in Caledonian Blue? Sure! You could even slap Malachite Green on a rebuilt Bulleid, and I'd still be happy!
In short, any livery works. As long as it's not something completely ghastly and disgusting, you'll have no complaints from me.
Zephyr4501 I totally agree with you.
malachite green on what?
There's too much black. Then again I love the Southern rail road 630 paint scheme of black and the 4501 does Great in black but does have some I have a Ryobi I'd like to see if the old one back in green myself
Oh him yeah also Britain that you have a lot of variety you have the BR black BR blue PPR maroon a PR or brown with green hundred and you have variety but then again none of us want to see a pink black five
Zephyr4501 Now this may sound weird coming from an American, but I hate the idea of a rebuilt light pacific in SR Malachite Green. Malachite Green should be left to the unrebuilt to carry the torch. Standard BR engines? Leave the 4MTs in green or black.
US railroads don't have this issue, 95% of the American steam locomotives around are black. Love the video
Exactly. The diesels are the fun colors.
And lots of them have silver smoke boxes.
As someone who works for an American Railway museum I assure you it very much is. Maybe not allover colours like here, but many debates involve what lettering should be used, whitewalls or not, silver vs grey smokebox, what whistle will it wear, and for certain locomotives: what colour (Southern 4501, R&N 425, D&RGW 473), and what era will it be restored too (kerosene headlamp and old style vs 1930s, for example).
Ireland doesn't have this problem because we don't have enough engines from a single railway company for liveries to be an issue.
Jacob Woods that reminds me, I heard a humorous story on an old TM video about Lionel’s Hudson’s, apparently when Lionel re-released the 773 Hudson the first time, it had a plastic tender lettered Pennsylvania. In the wrong font. Then they tried to really cheaply re stamp it with New York Central, which was also the wrong font.
I always find the pregrouping liveries to be more eye catching as well as looking more handsome then midland compound (even though it's in a pregrouping livery).
Killian Keane I know right
I can't see how you have a problem with BR black. When BR black is basically the same shade as LMS black, LNER black, GWR black and SR black. Apart from the numbers and lettering there are the same. Most locomotives were black during the war and most were not change until early BR days.
yeah
I don't really care what colour the loco is painted as long as the loco is working and looks good after all there were a lot that did not escape the cutters torch
Sometimes inexperienced restorers will add silly things to locomotives.
parkengines.railfan.net/MA/images/pages/102.html
@@raymondleggs5508 I don’t see the issue.
@@the4tierbridge 3 years old comment lol, plus sometimes the things they come up with are quite bizzare
@@raymondleggs5508
1: What’s wrong with replying to an older comment?
2: Like what? What is supposed to be wrong on that Mogul (I can’t tell if it’s a 2-6-0, or an 0-6-0.
@@the4tierbridge It's an 0-6-0, the fake Balloon stack and cowcatcher are the issue lol.
I'm very much for Less BR liveries.
I feel that most Pre-Grouping locos should be paint in their Pre-Grouping liveries, because as you said there were so many colourful liveries about.
I also don't mind the Odd loco paint in an unauthentic livery, if it's eye catching.
I'd also love to see more locos painted in Post Grouping liveries as there are quite a few nice ones.
But BR Black and Green should still be represented on some of the locos.
I do quite like Mixed Traffic lined black, especially on 2MTs & Black 5s.
So in short, less BR (where possible).
The two LSWR Beattie Well Tanks in preservation are both in BR black. I wouldn’t mind one of them in an LSWR livery like chocolate and cream.
I agree, it's the owners choice, not the armchair enthusist
No it’s not
@@PoopooR the armchair enthusiast or the owner's decision.
It's definitely the owners choice. I belong to a steam preservation group here in New Zealand and they have made a couple of changes (well, one I can think of) to some/one of their locos which would have you UK types pulling your hair out but hey, it's the owners choice.
What gets me is when railways run 14xx locos with autocoaches, and the liveries do not much. Loco is painted in GWR colours, but the coach is in a BR livery, or the other way round.
Someone should paint a Duchess in LNER green and an A4 in LMS crimson just for fun :P
Anothersignalman Sounds like the new intern at the NRM messed up.
They do have an LNER Green of the A4s, but LMS red just won’t look nice
Green on a Duchess is good, especially the darker shades
Actually, none of the a4's carry Doncaster green any more, th e closest any of them come is union of South Africa and Dwight D. Eisenhower in BR Brunswick.
As Chris said, there was an LMS 2-6-4T built in 1951 in Caledonian blue. Anything's possible
Actually some A4s did carry apple green, but none of those survive - unless you count Dominion of Canada when it was initially named Woodcock before being painted in garter blue when renamed Dominion of Canada.
This happens regularly in the US, especially in regards to the diesel engines that have been preserved. Several F units which were operated well into the 1980's and partially the 1990's were repainted in an array of colors they never wore in revenue service (example would be C&O #8016 at the North Carolina Transportation Museum. The engine was originally Clinchfield #800 before being purchased by the C&O Historical Society) It also happens occasionally with our steam engines. Milwaukee Road 261 was dressed up as a Lackawanna Pocono for several months while at Steamtown in Scranton, PA, complete with bell, whistle, and air horn from an original class member. Also, because most engines were painted simply black, you can get magnets and stickers to apply to an engine for something short. I mainly saw this with a photo charter on the Black River and Western Railroad in New Jersey, when they placed magnets on the tender and cab of the engine to replicate what #60 looked like running on the Great Western in Colorado.
Gauging the issue myself here, Ireland is proof that, if people care and love the engines enough, the livery needn't be a massive issue. DSER 15/GSR 461 is currently running in CIÉ Green (a livery she never carried at work), running for the most part with 1960s Cravens carriages (which rarely, if ever saw steam haulage), which themselves are carrying a GNR(I) inspired livery and Railway Preservation Society of Ireland (RPSI) crests...and we LOVE IT! :D
I’m part of the RPSI and I’m starting a band called the Footstompers and I plan to make Thomas and friends great again.
I'm keen to have more pre BR liveries. As stated in the video, there's so much black that sometimes you forget the colour.
Chris, An idea for a future video in the series. The livery debate, but for Preserved Diesel locomotives and Multiple units, as this can cause just as much wibble. Looking forward to the next episode!
He only talks about steam engines, but I do wish to see more pre-grouping liveries. The two LSWR Beattie Well Tanks in preservation are both in BR black. I wouldn’t mind one of them in an LSWR livery like chocolate and cream.
I have a huge thing for pre-grouping liveries: Marsh Umber, GER blue, the GN&SR Pannier livery, LNWR black, GCR Green and LSWR mint and chocolate. It makes locos look so much more appealing and allows a greater variety not found in BR black.
I would want all the steamers to be painted in their original liveries
I like BR livery on my BR models normally, but I couldn't resist some pre-grouping ones. I think there should be room for both. And I think agree with you it's the owners progative at the end of the day. I just wish people wouldn't get cross about it.I remember people got cross when the Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway 0-6-0 at the KWVR was restored in to L&YR passenger livery.... EVEN THOUGH it was historically correct. But the owners found that no one moaned when the original cast iron chimney was scraped an replaced with a modern steel one. No one seems to think without going mad at times. That Red 8F happened in part I led to believe (could be wrong) in when the engine had a red 'undercoat' applied, and the owners joked about being MS red. But people threw a wobbler and made the owners decided to go though with it. Can not be people be happy that the engine is running? I hated the red applied to Olton Hall but with out the Potter Money would have WCR had the means to get 'Scots Guardsman' and 'Galetta' running again. I don't understand the human nature at times...
The two LSWR Beattie Well Tanks in preservation are both in BR black. I wouldn’t mind one of them in an LSWR livery like chocolate and cream.
Recently found your channel and I have to say it’s exactly what I’ve been looking for as a rail enthusiast. Finally someone going with skills when it comes to presentation. I wish I had known of your channel sooner
Bravo, Chris. As a huge Moviebob fan myself (except his movie reviews, which I feel often miss the mark and in some rare cases come off as him parroting the mainstream critics rather than seeing the movie himself), I think you nailed his delivery method for the old Big Picture series and his newer In Bob We Trust series perfectly, and in a way that really works for what you want to do with it. Excellent work, sir. Also, using artwork of yourself (mostly. I caught that "Northwest Frontier" reference in there, and good show for acknowledging that cracking little film exists) for the reactions was a nice touch to make the thing your own.
As for the livery debate, I'm of two minds. On the one hand, I definitely get what you're saying about BR liveries being more authentic and feeling more immersive; most preserved railways do seem to try and model themselves on how things would have looked during BR times, using mostly BR stock. There are a few notable exceptions; the Bluebell Railway seems to have done a fantastic job of capturing multiple different eras at each of its stations, from the more BR reminiscent style of the new East Grinstead terminus to the Southern (the old, good one) era at Kingscote and Horsted Keynes, even the LBSCR days at Sheffield Park. The West Somerset and the Severn Valley also seem intent on turning the clock back to the days of the GWR. But for the most part, you're right; BR is what we have left, BR is what most of the old bashers remember, so BR is what we get.
On the other hand, I won't deny that having everything be black is a serious disappointment, especially for foreign enthusiasts. You guys have it good over there with even having those touches of green. Here in the USA, we get plain, non-glossy black and that's pretty much it, maybe spiced up with a silver smokebox here and there, but for the most part black is it. There are a couple exceptions to that rule; the Southern Pacific "Daylight" trains, including #4449 had their orange liveries, the Southern Railroad had their green, and the Norfolk & Western and Canadian Pacific threw in some maroon with the black, but for the most part American steam locomotives are just plain flat black. So bearing that in mind, I'll always jump on a British engine that's not the same old black, even if it's just Brunswick Green.
And here's a point to think about: Perservation of rolling stock in their original, authentic liveries is all well and good, but what about the liveries themselves? Shouldn't the old liveries be preserved as well? Not just for engines, but for coaching stock as well. We don't have all that many pre-BR coaches left either, while we have bazillions of Mk.I's floating around, so many that some are being turned into restaurants and B&B's with nobody batting an eye. And let's not forget that the Mk.I came about as a collection of the best coach design ideas from all of the Big Four companies. So really, it wouldn't be too much of an eyesore to turn out a Mk.I in, say, LMS Crimson Lake Lined, or Southern Maunsell Green, or GWR Chocolate & Cream (the pre-war version, not BR's cheap imitation), or... Okay, LNER Teak would take some work, but you get my point.
On the other other hand, there is a pretty good argument against some of these older liveries, especially the pre-grouping ones: The more intricate you get, the more of a pain in the ass it is for the painters. Remember, somebody's got to hold that brush and labor for hours, days, perhaps even a week or more on the more elaborate liveries, while just spraying on black or dark green and stenciling some lines on is so much easier and thus more cost-effective.
P.S. Yes, I still need a freaking editor. Or my own UA-cam series to respond to your UA-cam series ;P
*one of three locos to run in caledonian railway livery since the 90s. The 0-6-0, the 4-4-0 and the odd ball, the barlcay saddle tank which I used to dispose moat sundays for some time.
I would definitely like to see more pre-war and Victorian liveries, but some suit post-war colors better. I think it's more of a case-by-case situation, but it ultimately comes down to what the owners decide to do.
This is a great idea! Can't wait for the next episode!
I think as you said in the it all depends of type of class and region it is from which I agree. but however some engines who are nearly hitting the century mark should be restored to the ex work liveries to give a good history and insight for the next younger generation on what is was like when the specific locomotive was work in that period.
I'm all up for a variety of colours the heritage railways main kind of customers are family's and what is going to attract family's is pretty grouping and grouping liverys because they are bright if we want to keep the preservation movement we need to be able to keep attracting familys
Nice one Chris! I'd love to see more episodes!!!
We Americans have some beautifully painted locomotives, some which include 119, Jupiter, number 7 at Greenfield Village, Leviathan, 4449 (in both it's Daylight and American Freedom Train liveries), 611, soon to be built 5550, any Eureka and Palisade locomotive, Crescent Limited, Blue Comet, Royal Blue, Hiawatha, and John Bull
It would be awesome to have a locomotive painted in photographic grey. Such an interesting livery, in my opinion
Great video, albeit a can of worms. I would love to see locomotives in a variety of different colors. A Castle in Crimson Lake or BR Blue, a Black 5 in GWR Green or any other pre-grouping color. And though I'm all for historical accuracy, a livery isn't a permanent thing. Might we be able to block the memories for a short time and just ask ourselves without any attachments: "How does this locomotive look in this color?" Nothing more, nothing less. Alas, I digress. I honestly believe that our "livery problem" should be the least of our worries. I'm glad that we're so blessed to have so many locomotives left in the first place. As long as we have steam locomotives operating, I'm happy!
(I think a yellow Castle with appropriate black or red lining would look amazing!) :P
If you paint an engine yellow, you go all the way and deck it out in Highland Railway livery.
The two LSWR Beattie Well Tanks in preservation are both in BR black. I wouldn’t mind one of them in an LSWR livery like chocolate and cream.
@@CW56 I make this point for the Terriers. There are 10, and you can have them in almost any livery. Keep 1 in BR Black, but Bodiam looks gorgeous in KESR Blue, and LSWR or FYN liveries would look great on one of the IoW terriers (I forget which one would've actually carried them.) There are quite a few in LBSC Improved Engine Green, which works on Waddon and Boxhill, but is inauthentic on Stepney, because he is an A1x. If he was an A1 would be fine, but he is in an 1890s condition with an 1870s livery. This is point I've never seen raised, as everyone seems to go with Stepney being ochre, and I must say it suits her fine, but it's of doubtful authenticity.
hey chris may i mention but black five 44932 was once painted in br green
I'm so glad Improved Engine Green (and Stepney by extension) got a mention here. I think it's a beautiful livery, and I would love to see Stepney painted that way again. (Also; that tiny glimpse of Fenchurch at 8:11 is nice. :) )
you're wanting to see a black 5 in something other than br livery? just wait until 5025 rolls out of aviemore shed next. ;)
This aged well.
@@justahillbilly7777 yes, yes it did. She looks magnificent in LMS black, and in as close to as built condition as is physically possible.
Southern Railroad #4501 was once painted in the famous Green n' Gold livery from 1966 - 1996. This livery was based on the UK Southern Railway's green livery, with a different shade of green kinda similar to LNER engines.
Ireland doesn't have this problem because we don't have enough engines from a single railway company for liveries to be an issue.
I think liveries can make or break a locomotive, for example I love seeing mallard in its sky blue color and flying scotsman in its LNER Apple green. Then I also love seeing terriers in improved engine green.
The two LSWR Beattie Well Tanks in preservation are both in BR black. I wouldn’t mind one of them in an LSWR livery like chocolate and cream.
I'm quite liking this series already. And I must say, I'm actually digging the drawings
Brillant idea and very good, I totally agree with this! Would love to see some locos in different liverys like a WD 2-10-0 in LNER/LMS Black or WD Grey! Just an example, BR is just used a lot these days and I think that the pre war engines should be able to go in a different livery i mean what about having 60009, 60019 and Mallard all in LNER Blue now that would be a sight to see!!! And I think fictional liverys work up to an extent I mean a Jinty in Thomas Blue doesn't look awful! So yeah more different liverys yes please!!!
The two LSWR Beattie Well Tanks in preservation are both in BR black. I wouldn’t mind one of them in an LSWR livery like chocolate and cream.
Taking into account what you have spoken about Chris i've decided i want a Black 5 in GWR shirtbutton livery. Because why not? :P
The only none GWR engines that can where that are terriers and Pre-Grouping Western Region stuff. (Just my opinion, and now you mention i can see a black five looking quite handsome in dark green.)
He did say that there are 18 Black 5's preserved so there's plenty of scope for different liveries there, maybe 18 different liveries.
brilliant Chris, I agree 100% I'm always fed up of seeing br liveried locomotives, (svr voulunteer btw) and it's nice to see locos in something different, one of the reasons why I love 2857 is because of her gwr livery, IV been helping with her winter maintenance recently, also love that how the Beatle and queen appear in this it's actually music
That was great to watch and I like the old Southern Region Green on locomotvies.. before BR black.
The two LSWR Beattie Well Tanks in preservation are both in BR black. I wouldn’t mind one of them in an LSWR livery like chocolate and cream.
Nice one Chris there had been debates on where which livery Tornado should wear many people preferred her in BR Express Passenger Blue because some of the A1 trust liked it but someone much loved her in BR Apple Green but I don't complain in the MNLPS we asked ourselves which livery for Clan Line will it be after overhaul but everyone decided BR Green because it suits her in preservation hopefully the next issue will be about the locomotive names
Thanks for an enjoyable video, just found it! Thank you for your comments re Caledonian Railway 828 based at the Strathspey Railway. I painted & lined out the loco at Aviemore in 2010. It should be stressed that the work involved in painting the loco pales into insignificance compared to the engineering work involved in overhauling & maintaining it.
The good news is that LMS Black Five No 5025, also at Aviemore will carry full LMS livery when it’s overhaul is complete.
By the way folks, be wary of the so-called ‘BR Brunswick Green’. BR never used ‘Brunswick Green’, it’s a trainspotter term. There are many instances of preservationists painting their locos in this incorrect lighter shade. The correct shade is BS 381c ‘Deep Bronze Green’. Thanks!
Deep bronze green, as in, Talyllyn green which I believe No.3 and 4 are wearing.
10:07 And I thought painting a Black 5 as Henry would be crazy.
in australia there are some 7 1/4 gauge black fives painted green and one in england had brass bands on the boiler
Personally, I'd paint each engine in either their pre-grouping or Big 4 colours with BR numbering and crest with letters BR either side. A hybrid livery, if you will.
Actually, to add to your point about how some liveries become part of an engine's identity, I would argue that LNER Apple Green has become a part of Flying Scotsman's identity. She wore that livery for a considerable amount of time on the LNER, and even for a period on BR, however, it was in preservation that was when the livery became so famous on Scotsman: It was the livery that Alan Pegler (her first owner) restored her in, It was the livery she wore when she went to the USA in 1969, and she also wore that livery when she went to Australia in 1988. That's not to say that she can't wear any other livery, but Apple Green has become so synonymous with Flying Scotsman that it's hard to imagine her in any other livery.
If it's appropriate, I'm all for it. I'd love for the Midland & Great Northern Joint Railway Society to trial one of their engines in M&GNJR Autumn Leaf. And it's my understanding that there are three Black Fives around who'd not be too inaccurate in S&DJR Prussian Blue. To my mind, this is the era of preservation; anything is plausible.
What locomotive would you have repainted? There are no survivors from the M&GN. Lol I talked to the people at the NNR and they said they would new build a M&GN loco if they had the money 😂
Also I like Great Eastern blue, and LB&SCR improved engine green as it is very attractive.
The issue also crops up when it comes to rolling stock. Across the sea it ended up costing a whole team of volunteers from the hate the blue with yellow stripe craven livery got.
I'm of the opinion liveries don't matter that much, sure some photographers will be pissed, but really their pretty pictures don't actually translate to revenue. It's more important an engine, coach or truck is persevered and preferably in working condition that what colour it is.
An interesting discussion series for railfans, good series to watch while I'm waiting for the next SLIP. And a fascinating topic to start with. Keep up the good work Chris.
3:05 You literally sounded identical to my landlord! And he's a rail enthusiast!
I know the Rheidol tanks were painted in BR Blue, but I think some other steam engines would also look good in BR Blue.
If I had the kind of money to run my own line, I'd repaint the Loco's once every few months in different liveries, fictional liveries (harry potter, dino safari from hornby, etc), and even entirely made up paint schemes (Eg, "go nuts" to the artist to create entirely unique engines)
And i'd be saying "shut up and take my money!!"
"If I had the kind of money..." that says it all, it all comes down to the $$$$$$$$ (sorry my keyboard can't do Pound signs).
@@kiwitrainguyif you hold the $ symbol you should get various other currency symbols
Nice concept for a series. Interested to see what topics it'll bring to the table.
This is a good starting point as far as I'm concerned because it's one I've actually had discussions about previously.
On a short volunteering stint during November 2015 myself and one of the other volunteers had a discussion about the upcoming repaint of Fairlie locomotive 'David Lloyd George'. Being of the mindset that something different/non-standard could be an interesting idea I put the idea forward that she could be painted dark blue*. This suggestion was shot down in flame by my fellow volunteer he being very much of the mindset that non-standard things was an awful idea!
*and yes I suggested this so it would resemble the character from Thomas & Friends... don't judge me!
Incidentally when I had a similar conversation with one of the staff members at Boston Lodge he said that they wouldn't have been able to do that anyway due to copyright reasons, which is fair enough. Although I don't feel like the copyright holders would care very much, they haven't touched 'Mighty-Mac' since 2008!
I like your style Chris, keep it up !!!!!!
Great video Chris, I for one would like to see more of these videos please. On the debate in hand I quite like BR black with early unicycling lion totem, I think it looks quite smart. I was born in the Eighties and remember the days of BR blue and grey livery (YUCK!) so I don't really fit into that group who remembers operational mainline steam. I'd quite like to see one of the big LMS pacifics in wartime black with the straw coloured numerals and lettering but I'm weird like that. I think that the Turkish 8F that was repatriated to Scotland last year should be restored in Turkish Railways colours that its worn its entire life as it would certainly be a bit different from everything else on the UK preservation scene.
A very well done video there, and to be honest you have put the argument very well. I agree with you on pretty well every point you make. What I would like to add is this, 95% of preserved railways market these days are not enthusiasts, so the bright colours of the pre 1948, or even more so pre 1923 liveries are a huge selling point. BR black is a smart livery when kept spotlessly clean, however, it is the worst livery to keep looking smart.
The final point from my point of view is that I'm footplate crew, and at the end of the day, it's the mechanical condition of the loco that matters more to me than the colour of the paint, but thats probably a different debate.
In Australia liveries, pretty much followed global standards... it was Black, Woodlands Green, Apple Green, Canadian Pacific Red, Royal Blue.... and Primer Grey, with Red, Yellow, White lining.
The Victorian Railways S class (streamlined) steam class was in Royal Blue with Sulphur Yellow (Gold) highlights, the Tasmanian R class was visually similar on a 3'6" gauge in Woodlands Green and Silver, instead of 5'3", and two cylinders vs three. The New South Wales Government Railway 38 class in "streamlined" form was Apple Green with Gold highlighting, but was originally all over grey, nicknamed Grey Nurse, after the Shark.
i have always found pre grouping liveries to be more eye catching like you said it gets peoples attention. i do agree that when a loco was built should be considered when choosing a livery. I have been to galas in past where every loco was in BR black and can get a bit boring after a while. variety is the spice of life as they say.
I honestly prefer the pre grouping and grouping liveries to BR personally. I always preferred bright colours to darker ones, which is why I love Friendship is Magic due to it being so bright coloured. If it was in charge of British Railways, I would have had had each region keep their own unique colours (e.g. LNER Garter Blue and Apple Green, Great Western and Southern Railways Light Green, LMS Bright Red), but just have The BR Logo instead of their own separate ones.
I believe that BR black is the best color for some engines, such as the Q1; I can't imagine what it would look like in any other livery
There's Also the sole BR-Built J72 Tank that was painted in NER/LNER Apple Green but still carries a BR Crest.
I like the way Tornado has been changed every few years so everyone is happy. Must cost a lot to keep doing it though.
I like colour. I am not that concerned about historical accuracy unless it is specific, as in a film or preservation setting where everything has an historical intention. Well presented and enjoyable. Barry. Devon. (amateur and slow LMS modeller).
One good example of variety was the Highland Railway Jones Goods and the GNSR no.49 Gordon Highlander. The Jones Goods was in HR green during service, but when she was used in preservation in 1959, she was painted stroudley yellow, and Gordon Highlander was originally painted black, yet she was painted in that eyecatching shade of green. It really goes to show that sky's the limit with paint schemes in preservation.
Amazing video, and a good idea to reach for this market! Very well edited and the images chosen consistently matched the commentary I especially love the caricatures of you that featured throughout.
As for the livery debate, I am all for variety. But you have to admit, it does look a little strange to see a Pre-Grouping N Class pull up alongside a BR liveried 04.
Great review, my only criticism sadly is the mugshot drawings, I had to look away from some as they were a little off putting.
With a bit of tweaking, they could be more enjoyable.
I think that was overdone. after a while the novelty wears off.
Really great idea Chris! I would love to see your take on American preservation movements in a future episode.
Here in the states, Southern green was briefly applied to 722 630 and 4501
Lionel and MTh did various colors of steam
Heritage units are popular
On a similar note, some engines were (and are artistically depicted) dressed as from other railroads or as previous or later versions
Accurate or not I like Flying Scotsman in apple green...
Elliott Lewandowski I'd rather have it in 1923 condition (apart from unrebuilding it),Apple green - smoke deflectors with the old number (1472) with a GNR Coal-line tender in or Scotsman in BR blue without deflectors
also the Apple green is accurate
You know the thing that completely baffles me? Why has Scotsman never been turned out to look like one of her sisters, like Papyrus, or Humorist, or Brown Jack? That way they can have her in A3 Condition, in LNER Doncaster Green, and have it be authentic.
I like the idea for a series of videos to trigger discussions about subjects.
Not only for the enthusiastn to shed their opinions but also as a source for people being concerned with the subject to find out how the public opinion is oriented.
In case of the livery discussion: for the owners of locomotives it can be used as a guide how the public would see their locomotive come out after a repaint/overhaul.
I would like to see more locos in the big four liveries, but in general the problem with pre BR color schemes is the non availability of pre BR coaching stock, as most railways don't have these.
Only big exception is the SVR, which has a complete set of stock for LMS, GWR and LNER railways, in appropriate liveries (altough even some of these coaches were built in BR days)
A handfull of other railways can show one or 2 sets, but most railways have to rely on BR MKI stock, and even these are difficult to come by today, the newer of our preserved lines have to use MKII stock, sometimes even in aircon variants (which is a complete no for the enthusiast, where is the experience if only 4 small windows at the carriage ends open?)
The SVR for instance could repaint their flying pig (Ivatt 4MT) in LMS black, altough just a handfull of the machines entered service with LMS numbers.
But one of the nice LNER loco's on long term hire?, like the only preserved B12, or the D49, in apple green would look good on the teak set.
We need to see less engines in BR colours. COUGH! Union of South Africa. Also we need to see more Black5s in LMS lined black. maybe Bittern could be in Crimson lake when she's restored. I'm being serious.
Tedthetrain productions Bittern wouldn't look half bad in Apple Green.
Tedthetrain productions
True,And I want them in their company liveries
Nifty.
Personally speaking, I prefer Big-4 and pre-grouping liveries on most British steam locomotives. It's because of the stunning colors and 4-digit road numbers. The only real exeptions that make BR liveries look good to me are GWR locomotives and Bulleid's locomotives for the Southern. GWR locomotives get away with it because they get to retain their 4-digit road numbers from the days of the GWR and some look striking. To give some examples: 5972 Olton Hall and 6023 King Edward II. One is bright red, the other is royal blue, both look gorgeous. Heck, I've seen the King last summer so I know it looks stunning in blue. And Bulleid's locomotives get away with BR liveries because his Pacifics can look very smart in BR colors, more so if the paint is fresh. And also, because Bulleid's locomotives actually had better and tidier than the Continental road numbers they had. Instead of CX for the Q2s and 21CXXX for the Bulleid Pacifics (Merchant Navys, West Countries and BOBs), you had the 33000 for the Q1s, the 34000 series for the West Countrues an BOBs (Battle of Britain Pacifics) and the 35000 series for the Merchant Navys.
Heck, I even love the look of Flying Scotsman as LNER 4472 with the BR modifications. Even if it isn't historically accurate, I think it looks sensational.
And my PC froze up and shut itself several times down while writing this comment, so I had to resort to our laptop downstairs... =_=
The BR colours are authentic as all engines worn them when working under BR. The first colours there were painted does not mean that they are only colours there should wear. Every machine does not were the same colour for it's full working career. The BR green come from the great western green as they're different shades. BR black is basically the same shade as LMS black, LNER black, GWR black and SR black. Apart from the numbers and lettering there are the same. Most locomotives were black during the war and most were not change until early BR days.
Let me guess, you're John Moss-Eccardt on Facebook? If so, stop trying to change my opinon. =_=
I am only stating my opinion and there is no rule that says I can't. There is nothing wrong with having a conversation and it is not going to hurt to. Listening people opinions and looking at it from a different view point. I never said you were not allowed a opinion and if you don't want listen to peoples opinions. Then why be on the internet and we talking about steam locomotives. It is not competition to be the prettiest and them siting around. There are meant to pulling trains with happy people. The colour should not stop people from enjoying them and most the general public don't care what colour it is. Apart from Thomas The Tank Engine.
I love the concept for this show, and think it can (and so far is) executed pretty well. As for the livery debate, as a Yank, we don't really have this issue, mostly on short preserved lines like the Strasburg Railroad, which still keeps it relatively authentic to its original railroad. Reading & Northern 425 is really the only steam locomotive left (post 2010) with an original / non-authentic livery that is well known more than its origins.
A good point about liveries. Whilst the locomotive owners are free to paint their locos however they like, it is getting boring seeing nothing but BR green or black all the time. An example is Union of South Africa, which has worn BR green since 1952. The A4s looked dull and drab in BR green, whereas they looked superb in LNER garter blue and BR blue. Because of this, 60009 just doesn't capture my imagination as much as Mallard, Bitten & Sir Nigel Gresley do. Concerning locos painted in liveries that are inaccurate to their current condition, I don't mind if it looks ok, e.g. Canadian Pacific in BR blue despite been in rebuilt condition. Historically inaccurate, but looked good and it could have happened if BR hadn't abandoned the blue livery. In contrast, Flying Scotsman in apple green but with double chimney & smoke deflectors looked awful and I'm glad the NRM has consigned that to history. Regarding Black Fives, its worth noting that in 1948, BR experimentally painted some in apple green, and in the early '70's, some preserved examples were painted BR green.
On the Llangollen railway, 7754 is being overhauled. That engine was used by the NCB, and was painted in NCB green, with red side rods, which I think it should be painted in when it returns to steam. Luckily the man in charge of overhauling it, is my friend's father, so I can persuade him.
Coming from a nation that followed the Henry Ford motto (any color of the rainbow, so long as it's black), I have had slight experience with British steam locos on a trip to the UK last summer. From what I saw and read about in books, my idea is that livery is more on line with fashion: depends on year, model, and region. Any color can work, except for white, purple, pink, orange, and neon.
Actually, that's grey.
Really interesting, and a subject that we debate all the time. Cheers Chris
I quite like this series, as it reminded me a lot of Bob Chipman's series, but for railways!
Nice idea Chris and I hope it takes off.
this is brilliant, keep up the amazing work Chris :)
en-GAUGE-ing
10:06 LMAO the infamous Solvite Wallpaper Black five! The livery that we all need to see again xD
This is all I have to say, in the era of preservation, paint shouldn't matter unless it's far beyond obvious that it doesn't suit the engine in any way. Not including being a little fun and doing fictional paint schemes or swapping railroads.
We do that a lot in the US. For example, we have a steam locomotive that'll return this year. Chesapeake & Ohio 1309 is now owned by the Western Maryland Scenic Railroad. However, she won't be painted in the original C&O lettering. Instead Western Maryland paint, similar to what they did with a former Lake Superior and Ishpeming #34, now numbered as 734. While it's not historically accurate for a Baldwin 2-6-6-2 that was specifically made for the C&O to wear Western Maryland paint, it's actually really interesting and it promotes the railroad itself.
I can't see the problem with a loco wearing the livery of the company it's working for.
Silas Fatchett Right, it helps identify the company when you see it on the tracks. If you see (in a U.S.A. perspective) a Pennsylvania diesel with Reading Company coaches and a B&O caboose, you won't know at all what railroad just went by, especially if the railroad's actual name isn't on most if any of the equipment. I understand why there is so much BR on locos for historical accuracy, but for most cases I feel that they should be lettered for the tourist railroad/preservation line that they work for as they aren't BR locos anymore, and there lines should be proud to have their name on the engine as a saying of "look what we have" (we have exceptions in the U.S. too like our main line steamers or for photo specials, but for the majority of preserved running steam in the United States my argument stands).
Case in point from the other side of the pond. Southern Railway #4501. Originally black with white pin stripes when built new in 1911. Relettered as Kentucky & Tennessee #12 from 1948 till 1964. Painted "Virginia Green" with Gold Leaf lettering (Southern's passenger scheme) from 1966 till 1996 (minus repainting for periodic movie roles). In 1996 it was painted in original colors of black with white stripes as a freight engine. Following a $1.5 million restoration that was completed in 2014, the engine came out black, which sparked controversy between people saying it should be green, but others saying it should be black.
Having helped restore the engine, plus being a regular fireman on it, I'm all for historical authenticity (ignoring the addition of the mechanical stoker and feedwater heater during this rebuild), but it's not a freight engine anymore, so I understand the want for green. But I'm just glad to see it running. Paint or livery doesn't determine the operating condition of a locomotive, and people just need to be thankful that preservation groups are around to keep these machines in working order so younger generations can experience what it is like to ride behind a vintage steam locomotive.
It's engines like RBMN 425 and Baldwin Loco Works 26 that give us a variety in color over here in the states. At least in Pennsylvania.
In Australia, we had locos consistently turned out in a completely inaccurate Prussian Blue for 20 years, and not a single person complained. Change it to standard black, and suddenly the whiny armchairs invade.
The two LSWR Beattie Well Tanks in preservation are both in BR black. I wouldn’t mind one of them in an LSWR livery like chocolate and cream.
I'm glad that my local railway has an LMS lined black 5mt
I’d like to see an LMS 8F in LNER green
There was a similar locomotive to the 8F on the LNER called the O6, some were even loaned to the LMS and reclassified as 8Fs. Sadly none survive, but one LNER-built 8F 48518 did survive via Barry scrapyard (albeit without it’s tender), but it was sadly dismantled and the boiler is being used for the new GWR County Class and some other parts are being used in the new Patriot.
By contrast to many on here, I actually quite enjoyed the drawings of your face, Chris.
The topic is an interesting one. I have to say, I'm on the side of painting the locomotives in more colourful liveries, so long as they were built before BR. However, as you said, at the end of the day, it's up to the owner.
Ok then so we may see 4487 in a Ozride pink with a Big boy Whistle with a green number?
that wont work considerring the whistle would be way out of place and would sound weird on a BR steam engine plus pressure differences
i'm gonna go buy an 08 and paint it improved engine green! :P
I'd like to see that
legdig XD
alternatively; fund the new-build Leader class in (Modern) Southern Rail livery
legdig isn’t that Stepney’s livery?
And I'm Getting A Pannier Tank And Paint It S&DJR Blue Or LMR Blue Or Southern Green
I'm from Slovenia, formerly Yugoslavia. We never had any locomotives made in Slovenia, instead we had imported locos from Austria, Germany, Hungary and even got a bit of captured Italian stuff after WW2.
99% of our locos wore plain black with red wheels, running boards and some other bits, withh a bit of white here and there. Notable exceptions include a bit of yellow lining here, some stars and Yugoslavian railways crests there, a blue livery for class 11s (MAV 424) on Marshall Tito's Blue Train and a few odd liveries on industrial engines - like plain green on S100 copy number 62-121.
Personal experience - I heard people talk smack about that one time locomotive 18-005 was repainted into an unprototypical bright green in excursion train service, but at the same time, I never heard anyone complain about the engines 33-037 (DRB 52 Kriegslok), and 25-026 (BBO 270 class) wearing unprototypical lined black way back then. But this could just be that one was really atrocious, and the other was just a nice bit of extra styling that helped the visual esthetic? Who's to say? I never asked anyone. And in this Facebook group I'm in, "What-If and Never-Were British Steam locomotives", we constantly make new unprtotypical photoshops that would make a purist commit a hate crime. Like that one time I took some experimental German locomotive (19 1001), put a Leader cab on it and repainted it into the IC Sparrow livery, or the time I gave the 9F the driving wheels and motion of the French SNCF 151A, to a reception of laughs, being at a loss for words and "my eyes, they burn!". There's a lot of fun to be had with liveries and unprotoypicality, but the question remains, where do you draw the line?
When I walk into the railway museum in Ljubljana, I'm always happy to see the KKStB class 73 in KKStB white and yellow lined black, the Blue Train class 11 in yellow lined blue (duh) and our oldest locomotive, Sudbahn number 718, in bright green. All are prototypical and really help spice up the collection, which would otherwise consist of a lot of plain black, red and white. Given the already low attendance at the museum, making things look different helps, I suspect. Even today, Slovenian Railways has a wide variety of different train liveries - white lined blue, red, yellow lined red. yellow lined green, white lined green, green, et cetera, and coupling that with visiting foreign locomotives and leased power, there's en excellent wealth of different liveries, if you know where to look.
If I ever ran my very own heritage line, I would try to have as many different liveres as possible on my locos. But I'd keep them protoypical, or at least give them tasteful little additions like simple lining.
I'm Aljaž, and i'm here to write comments on Gauge The Issue, I guess. *_cue GTI outro music_*
Great first episode, Chris! I'd love to submit some topics for debate if you'd like.
This whole livery debate reminds me of the stir that N&W #611's "Spirit of Roanoke" logo generated when it was put on under the cab windows. I remember that fans initially complained about historical accuracy, so much so that one of the original members of the Fire Up 611 committee left over the issue!
But honestly, look at this picture of the cab -> img00.deviantart.net/3615/i/2015/206/6/9/driving_the_spirit_of_roanoke_by_rlkitterman-d92suq2.jpg
From a distance, the lettering doesn't make that big of a difference in photos. It's only when you get up close that people notice it.
This meme sums up my position perfectly (and yes, 611 had ditch lights on it in a few restoration photos as a joke): cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/folder730/62390730.jpg
I almost want to say I don't care about liveries; I just like steam engines.
But I do have some I prefer; but I'm not likely to make a fuss if I don't get my preferences.
I will, however be very happy if I do get them.
For example- Stepney. I would have been a little disappointed if she was in her black livery when I visited, but I would have still been glad to see her. However, I was very happy to see her in her goldenrod/"improved green" livery that I saw her/him in in the Railway Series and Thomas & Friends.
(Don't judge me; that "little blue embarrassment" is what spring-boarded my interest in UK locomotives!)
8:25 "Don't forget Belle, big, brave, and bright blue!"
Didn't expect you to use that photo of 60103 at 3:44.
There is even a debate here in America where the engine UP 844 either should be painted into the UP Greyhound livery or keep the livery it has now
5:18 Kinda foreshadowing Taw Valley
Essential viewing Chris. Ok, Preserved diesels. here in Australia a preserved Diesel almost always get repainted in it's original colour, even if modified. So some colour liveries later than the original , but also superseded are ignored, angering a few.This situation seem to fit in well with your bit.
interesting video Chris, personally for pre-BR liveries if the railway has the stock to match the livery then great and as you say owner's choice at the end of the day. Having fired a fictionally liveried loco, the amount of abuse the poor old girl received was unbelievable and made me quite defensive of her. As for 6201, I notice that due to misfortune they are now appealing for £40,000 I for one would be more willing to contribute if there was a chance to see her for a short period in BR green... (now that's another can of worms)
Gauge the issue on Gauge an issue. please do an episode on this!
I agree and make more episodes of these