Exactly... It's damn fast...lol. I only saw people who never tried it complain. I think standard range is way more than enough. I drove old Audi s6 V8 340 HP before Tesla... I also had 3.0 TDI chipped to 280 HP and Tesla RWD feels much faster in mid range... Much, faster
LFP batteries are not manufactured in the USA due to the current patent that is held in China, but this will change in 2022 as the patent will expire, so potentially LFP batteries could be available to be manufactured in the USA or anywhere for that matter. The one downside that was exposed by Tesla model 3's with LFP that were delivered in the EU, is their cold weather charging performance. This has been mitigated by better battery thermal management that Tesla has updated since the issue arose last year. I currently have 4KWH of LIFO batteries in my RV and I replaced 360lbs of AGM Lead acid with 75lbs of LFP batteries, never been happier. They charge so well I had to put a DC to DC converter between my 260amp Alternator and the house batteries to limit charge current, or the Alternator would have been fried as those LFP batteries are charge hungry, very different the AGM!!
I believe the patent is held in Canada. When the patent was filed an error in the filing made LFP available to China. The Canadian patent holder did not pursue legal action against the Chinese. But you are absolutely right, the patent will expire in 2022.
I have a 1.2kwh LiFePO4 battery in my work trailer. Takes the charge faster from the solar panel and from the towing vehicle so I have power all day. I use it to recharge my electric lawn service equipment. Like the commenter above, it replaced a lead acid battery that was more than twice the weight.
I ordered and got a Model 3 SR+ with the LFP battery in September. I switched my order so that I could get it quicker. I know that this is the “slowest” Tesla, but it’s still quick enough for me. I charge it to 100% almost every night.
Happy to say they don’t call it the standard range plus anymore, on there website it’s just called model 3, but to avoid confusion people are calling it the RWD.
People complain about speed but I’m sorry, I couldn’t care at all as long as it can just get going then that’s fine, range is way more important to me.
@@shoelessjoe5990 I charge it more than I should because I charge at home. I got 1000 free supercharging miles that I am almost done with. I have no idea what the rates are at the supercharger. I may end up using it more than my home charger.
LFP is a type of battery chemistry. OTOH, 4680 is a form factor. Totally separate, unrelated issues. LFP could be 4680, or prismatic or whatever. 4680's can be LFP or nickel, cobalt, whatever. Totally separate independent issues.
Teslas use either (cylindrical) NMC(A) or (prismatic) LFP. They don't mix and match. Nor should they, because part of the safety advantage of LFP is that you can use prismatic cells safely and claw back some volumetric energy density. Whereas cylindrical is much safer for the nickel chemistries, but less packing efficient.
@@concinnus To my mind the primary advantage of the 4680 form factor is that it enables a structural battery pack. The internal chemistry is a separate issue. If the prismatic (or 2170 or 18650 for that matter) form factor could be used in a structural pack, well then ...
I have in New Zealand a Tesla Model 3 SR+ made in Shanghai with the CATL LFP batteries. I change to 100% once a week and that is enough for my weekly use. Also great to do a trip with as there is no problem using the complete range from 100% to 1% without any battery damage.
LFP batteries usually have less capacity per kg or volume. So usually less range for the same pack. It loses more range in cold climates. But it has few advantages like: can be charged to 100% without degradation as the usual Li-Ion battery.
Think about practical range of LFP vs Li-ion. A long range model Y is estimated 326 miles full charge, but that's not practical. 80 -10% is practical usage, so 326 becomes 228 miles practical, i.e., 70% of 326 = 228. Now, LFP 100 - 5% is practical, 95% of 260 = 247 miles. LFP chemistry is much safer against fire, much cheaper, double to triple the battery life, i.e., # of charge cycle life. I want to charge in my garage and leave every morning knowing I have 247 miles of practical range without any fear or concerns about my battery health. Does this make good logical sense?
The range issue is not that simple. If you don't preheat the battery under freezing temperatures, yes the range is poor. But if you preheat the battery, the range is actually very close to optimum and better than with NCA Batteries.
Also good for wheelchairs although not used yet by North American manufacturers, only in europe. Wheelchair users don't want the risk of fire that lithium-ion batteries have.
Yes! Your future Tesla maybe able to be grid tied or power your house during an outage. I would rather have LFP chemistry batteries for this because a Tesla LFP battery has 3000 - 4000 cycle life vs Li-ion 500 to 2000 cycles depending upon your charging care, i.e., always charge to 80% , discharge to 10-20%. Personally, the convenience LFP charging to 100% and discharge to 5% without any battery damage is worth my consideration. Am I missing something? Seems like a no-brainer choice.
Some people may appreciate the benefits of LFP over Li-ion. 1. 80% charge of 326 = 260 miles range, Li-ion recommended daily charge level to prevent damage. And, discharge limited to 10-20% also to prevent damage. (LFP) can be charged everyday to 100% and discharged below 5% without any battery damage. A fully charged LFP will give you 260 miles range compared to 228 miles for Li-ion , i.e., 70% of 326 if you charge to 80% and discharge to 10% to protect the battery. Conclusion: LFP battery is far more convenient on this point alone. Other advantages: much safer against thermal fire, lower cost, longer life. I want to charge my Tesla in my garage with LFP peace of mind that my house will not burn down because of a 1 in 50k chance of battery fire. There are disadvantages maximum charging current ~ 70kw/hr, i.e., 20 to 100% state of charge ~ 75 minutes. And, cold weather has been reported to reduce range by 50% in some cases. Conclusion, LiFePO4 has lower performance in cold climates and ~2x longer (super charging) charge time compared to LCA batteries.
Quick question Arthur: I've been preparing to build a battery for home solar energy storage and had gleaned that even LFP benefits from not fully charging or discharging. There are charts out there that show how many more cycles one gets when cycling more deeply or more shallow, and it seems to make a big difference. So perhaps the difference is that Li-ion sustains damage in the short term if fully charged/discharged, while LFP's life expectancy is gently affected over the years if given the same treatment? What do you think?
I am planning to go with LFP with my Model 3 order as I prefer the increased longevity and 100% charge ability. Even with the slower performance it is still faster than my Bolt.
So you do not care that your LFP battery will never catch fire both sitting in your garage charging or during a high speed crash where you survive the cash and also it does not give you a free cremation if you are trapped in the wreckage? That is why I to would choose the LFP battery!
@@gregb1599 if you are going fast enough to crash and start a battery fire you probably won’t be around to worry about what happens to your corpse anyways.
Please ask Sandy more about the roadmap for battery tech in the next 10 years. Many of us are very interested in understanding when the masses will be able to afford a BEV. Will graphene technology, solid state batteries, and other tech increase Tesla's ability to scale battery production? Will this lend itself to more accessible BEV products?
There's no clear roadmap right now. We're waiting to see if solid state batteries are viable. These are scheduled for 2024-2025 for release. These will likely be scheduled for high end vehicles. Solid Power projects gen 1 cells will hit $86/kWh. That would represent a per pack cost of around $100/kWh which is around the industry benchmark for 2025 projected by BloombergNEF. This would represent a cost reduction of around $50 per kwh for the cell. For low end vehicles however the technology to look out for is Sodium ion batteries. CATL plans on producing cells by 2023 and they're projected to hit just $40/kWh. Following the same per pack pricing the actual cost should hit $55/kWh or maybe $65/kWh with a hybrid cell approach. This would be close to half the cost in 2023 of the equivalent lithium ion cells at the cost of heavier cells. A 50kWh battery pack would cost just $2750. With that you could have EVs in the $15000-20000 range. These would, however, likely come in 2025. I guess the year you're looking for though is going to be around then.
Counterintuitively, octane makes gasoline a little less explosive. You want that in a high performance engine because usually the compression ratios are much higher and higher octane prevents pre-ignition. Something we'll soon forget after the ICE era.
A very informative, article, clear and understandable, clear in comparisons so everyone can understand. What is particularly good this is about the topic not an ego driven program. Thank you!
Have been asking myself for some time now "Why the obsession with 0-60 speed?". So now with the LFP...little less oooomph per Sandy Munro but better charging, safety, and range....sounds like a good trade to me.
If you were going to spend a lot of money on a car you'd expect speed, comfort, and gadgets. That will not get us to a revolution where the average schmuck drives a cheap electric car.
If you could ask Sandy, why don't they use super capacitors for acceleration? In essence saving quick drain on the battery. A solar hood or braking could recharge the super capacitors in between acceleration periods.
Gr8 interview with Sandy Brother! So my takeaway, if I have it right, is: 1. Go Lithium-Iron-Phosphate (LFP - an older, cheaper China patented battery chemistry and popular in China with lower energy density & more poor low temperature performance than NCM or NCA cathode types) ... So for lower cost vehicles like base Model 3/Y & $25k car ... where shorter range needs & quicker charging times to a full 100% are a benefit. 2. But for colder weather, Long Range or High Performance vehicles ... Go with the 4680 battery which is capable of greater energy density and range. Thx & Cheers, Eric
I really like Sandy Munro for his manufacturing expertise, and he does understand the basics of different battery technologies. But he is kinda soft on the key points about LFP which relate to energy density and cost. And it is important to note that China owns the LFP battery industry right now, so they have a HUGE interest in promoting it over NCA batteries that are mostly produced in Japan and Korea. The biggest benefit of Tesla's 4680 batteries is simply that they will help Tesla not be wholly dependent on Asian battery manufacturers that currently OWN all automotive battery production today. For most EV drivers today, they simply charge up at home overnight, and don't worry about public chargers, or charging speed, or maximum range. But those are still the main topic points that you see discussed on the internet as being the most vital needs and issues of EV ownership. They certainly are important for some people, but not for most.
I normally respect Sandy, but he did not do his homework for this episode. LFP 'IS' a lithium battery. It is LiFePO4 (lithium iron phosphate). They contain no nickel, cobalt, manganese, or aluminum. These metals are all more expensive than iron. LFP has a different supply chain. Why is LFP good? Because they are cheaper and available and less likely, maybe even immune to burning. They also charge to 100% with no degradation. The downside is that LFP are less energy dense...the pack weighs more for the same kWh. They also provide less power (kW), therefore the 0-60 times are less, all else equal. Tesla just downgraded the 0-60 time for the standard Model 3 with LFP.
Yes its the tradeoff less safe+less weight+power moreweight+ more safe + less power LTO 25-30k cycles indestructible, low power density LFP(lifepo4) 8-12k durable, medium p.d. Li-on car 2-4k hazardous, high p.d Li-on phone. 0.8-1.5k dangerous, verry high p.d.
100% charge on LFP is not inconsequential or does not degrade the battery. LFP degradation will drop by 10% in the first 50,000 miles, and charging to 100% does degrade the batteries faster. The reason Tesla wants you to charge to 100% once a week is so the car's Battery Management System (BMS) can reset its internal knowledge of a "full charge" so it can watch and track the number of watts consumed while driving to give you a more accurate estimate of range. NMC batteries have a nice voltage drop that is pretty linear as you consume power. You can use the voltage of the cells/pack to estimate capacity and power remaining. LFP (LiFePO4) voltage drops some initially but then is very flat from say 85 to 15%, then the voltage drops even faster. You cannot look at the voltage and estimate state of charge. Thus the BMS needs to know when you've hit 100% so it can reset its internal meter, then as you drive the BMS knows how much power has been fed to the motors and vehicle systems. Based on the roughly 60.5kWh battery capacity, and about 56kWh usable, the BMS can tell the car its estimate of the state of charge. As you drop below 15% and the voltage starts to drop, the BMS can be more accurate on the last 15% of the battery. While the BMS can estimate how much you charge the battery, it can get off due to +/- errors in estimation, thus why Tesla says charge to 100% once a week at least. You could probably extend this to every 2 weeks, and charge to 85% most of the time and be just fine, and probably extend the life of the battery pack. But with NMC lasting 1m miles, I dunno if you'll be alive to reap the benefits!
BYD is setting the standard with their LFP blade batteries. Their form factor lends to more cells in traditional platforms. BYD’s new vehicles with blade batteries, 800v charging will be considered by many future EV buyers. FYI the BYD Han AWD can accelerate 0 to 100km/h in 3.9 seconds.
LFP is the more sustainable option. They use materials that are plentiful in the Earth's crust, they're cheaper, safer, last longer, and are easier to recycle. I won't buy anything else. Also, BYD gets high performance out of their LFP blade batteries. No one ever talks about them though 🤔.
Correct. Even though LFP has a little bit less power. It will be the defacto standard for normal peoples cars. 1. It's dirt cheap. 2. It's good to recycle. 3. It lasts super long. 4. It's safe. (Overall an LFP is a more attractive second hand car because the batteries last long.)
@@HermanWillems I have the Model 3 with the LFP and it's fantastic. When you consider that I can charge daily to 100%, I don't really think I'm losing out on much range compared to a ternary pack.
Thanks Alex. You and Sandy make a great couple. I know you compare cars test drives to dates. I compare your interviews like chatting up or dates too. Look at you Alex with the lady from transport evolved for instance. You two are hilarious 🤣🤣😂 Cheers buddy. Interview Nicki 💕💕💕
Right off the top: LFP is a chemistry. 46-80 is a form factor. I'm pretty sure that in due time, LFP batteries will be produced in the 46-80 form factor and built into structural battery packs. . This will allow better range, more charge cycles and lower cost than any other combination currently available. Wow! Until I saw this video, I had no idea that Tesla was using prismatic cells in any of their products. I don't expect that will continue for long.
@@e-redj To be clear: 1) Pouch and prismatic are not the same. prismatic cells have a lot more structural integrity. The pouch form factor is part (not all) of the reason that the Chevy Bolt batteries have failed. 2) It is more difficult and more expensive to build batteries in the prismatic form factor. The main reason for doing this is to achieve higher energy density at the pack level than would normally be possible with cylindrical cells. But that benefit is lost when the cylindrical cells become part of the structural strength of the vehicle. To be specific, like the Tesla structural battery pack. No, prismatic cells are not suitable for integration into a structural battery pack. That is why I do not believe that Tesla will continue to use prismatic cells once the 46-80 cylindrical cells become widely available. How long it will take Tesla to get the new manufacturing process to work with the LFP chemistry is something I do not know. But, I'm sure that it's coming.
LFP cells can be completely destroyed in one charge cycle if they are charged while frozen. They must be using some kind of battery heater or BMS low temperature disconnect in cold climate vehicles.
I am using LFP batteries for around 10 years now, both in my cars and motorcycles as starting battery, and even electric bike. Work good, probably 10% less than LiIon, but they last over 2000 cycles and are bullitproof. I never understood why Electric cars not use them as starting battery.
@@herrba I could start my old Ducato 2.8Tdi Campervan with it. It was 2/3 lighter and even stronger than the old lead acid. For my motorbikes it is even better, The Harley has a 18 pounds battery, that I replaced with a 5 pounds LFP battery. That thing is hugely more powerfull and has 8% drainage over a year, My lead acid would be dead after a year.
I have LFP batteries in my four wheel joystick controlled adaptive mountain bike. Plenty of range, and acceleration, and I appreciate the longevity of the battery.
Simple math: LFP standard range: 250 miles = 250 miles Lithium ion standard range: 262 miles... But it's recommended to only charge 90%, meaning you'll get 235.8 miles.
I had an FFP four engine start on the motorbike it was considerably better than the powerful lead acid that it replaced I tried it on a dual power drill and I could tell no difference in the performance between that and the 2170 is being used in the drill. Yes it’s bigger but not massively so and performance wise I could tell no difference
I’m surprised that the issue of patents wasn’t raised. To me that seems like the first consideration since the patent is expiring and royalties would not be required. China was given an exemption for mass production of the lithium iron phosphate batteries which is why their infrastructure is mature IMO.
This is the primary reason for LFP to not take off yet in other markets despite the cheaper materials. 2022 will see massive growth in LFP with both SK innovation and LG expected to start producing LFP.
I'm not sure why Sandy is making such a big deal about LFP cars being slow?! I get it LFP's don't output as much as Li-ion however my LFP Model Y is WAY plenty fast enough!!!!! I'm coming from a Subaru WRX 5 speed and the Model Y LFP is every bit as quick. I personally would like to see Tesla slow down the quicker models because most people have no idea how to drive a car that quick.
There is a great video of a SR+ LFP RWD car being pushed around Nürburgring with 5 people in the car.. Its the "Slowest" Tesla.. but as you can see in the video.. Its still PLENTY fast for almost any normal driver. The main thing is the LFP wants to be charged to 100% all the time.. I think from a consumer perspective this is easier to understand.. Its just like your phone.. And probably will make for a more reliable long term battery.
But some people say that the LFP battery is worse in cold weather. keep in mind that there are people who live in countries with cold weather such as Sweden Canada Norway
Lithium sulphur if it works will be a game changer as the sulphur is available as waste product from petroleum industry and others , just waiting for somebody to buy up
Do you mean self discharge while not being float charged? If so, I have seen my banks of LFP batteries hold charge for 2-3 months at a time completely disconnected with no float charger on. My AGM battery bank shows a fair amount of discharge after a week without a charger connected. LFP batteries have minimal self discharge.
LFP is better for most vehicles and people. They are safer, cheaper, last longer, more available and like to be fully charged unlike nickel. They weigh more and don’t like cold temperatures. So those living in mild/warm climates will be fine with a LFP pack.
I love Sandy but he clearly has no idea about types of batteries, "with LFP you get to your destination faster because they charge faster but they drive slower" -- OMG dude time for your warm milk and wooly socks for the day :D
So watt charges faster? the LFP or the other lithium ion? I love my 2015 Fiat 500e LFP but not the range degradation of my 2015 Tesla Model S.. Great video update on Tesla China.
LFP is also a lithium-ion battery, don't get confused. It's the other stuff like Iron vs. Aluminium that are different, not the Lithium Ion. The "F" is for Ferro = Iron. In NCA battery the A is for Aluminium. Per volume, the LFP just can hold less lithium Ions than NCA battery and therefore you need bigger battery for the same amount of energy
What I like about LFP batteries is that they like to be charged to 100% regularly. I wish that you would have talked about MP3 batteries. I heard that MP3s will be used in the 25G model
What I don't like about the batteries is they use a forever chemical that is showing up in soil and ground water. Bis-FASIs is the group of chemicals that are used. No video on the battery technology ever mention this highly toxic forever chemical..
Hello, I find it very interesting. Now the LFP battery in VE is fashionable. And I wonder, why does everything seem wonderful in the LFP? Could it be that the EV industry is hiding long-term problems with the LFP? For example, if they have iron, don't they rust over time?... I'm about to order my Tesla and I have to choose between both chemicals and I can't find an answer...to this great dilemma, what would you choose as an engineer? thank you
Clarifying the comment about octane which I just learned. Higher octane does not contain more power per gallon but the octane determines pre detonation occurs. Most cars with normal compression engines get no advantage from higher octane gas. So the comparison is valid. If you have a car designed to need the high power rate delivery of lithium ion it is useful. Most cars just like with high octane it is not useful to have high power delivery batteries. Most people do not need a dodge demon or a plaid.
Ощущение, что ЛиФер больше для автобусов подходит. Или даже автобусов-троллейбусов. Там можно пренебресь низкой плотностью энергии - считай перевозить лишнюю массу. Скорости по городу небольшие. На конечных остановках зарядники поставить или поднять "рога" и подцепиться к проводам на ходу.
I am sorry but Sandy has one thing wrong about LFP batteries. They can output more power without damage than standard EV chemistry using nickle and cobalt batteries. The 2014 Chey Spark EV has LFP batteries outputs enough power so the car has 400 pound-feet of torque while the 2015 & 16 Spark EVs which has different battery chemistry using nickle and cobalt puts out 327 pound-feet of torque. LFP batteries can take higher charging voltages and current and can output more current. If Tesla is limiting the performance it is probably due to wanting to squeeze more range out of the car. What Sandy has got right is pound per pound LFP batteries don't hold as much energy. Using the real world experience of the Chevy Spark EVs 2014 and 2015 through 2016 you can get a feel for the difference. 2014 Chevy Spark EV LFP battery is a 21 kilowatt hour while the 2015 and 2016 are Nickel-Rich NMC. (nickel-manganese-cobalt) and are 19 kilowatt hour. All years of Chevy Sparks have the same range of 82 miles brand new. The 2014 Chevy Spark EV LFP battery 21 kWh weighs 86 pounds more than the 2015 & 16 19 kWh NMC batteries. Both LFP and NMC Spark EV battery packs take up almost the same amount of space. 2014 Volume/case: 133L / square-shaped verses 2015 & 16 Volume/case: 139L / square-shaped. The 2014 Chevy Spark EV battery pack is 369 Volts. The 2015 & 2016 battery packs are 400 Volts. Even though the 2015 & 2016 are higher volts the 2014 Sparks EV have 400 pound-feet of torque compared to 2015 & 2016 327 pound-feet of torque. This tells you the 2014 LFP put out more amps than the 2015 & 2016 NMC batteries. I have also been monitoring the Spark EV forums. So far the 2014 LFP batteries are holding up much better then the 2015 & 2016 NMC batteries. LFP batteries just don't produce as much heat when charging or discharging as NMC batteries. This is why they can handle higher voltages and currents than NMC batteries and last longer. LFP batteries can also do more charging cycles 2 to 3 times as many as NMC batteries. Since they don't use expensive nickle or cobalt they are cheaper to produce. You can drive a nail through a LFP battery and even though it will short it will not catch on fire. Drive a nail through a NMC battery or any other Lithium Ion battery and it will catch on fire.
We have LFP on our standard Mod Y RWD. It has more than enough power. Don’t like to admit it but I’m smoking , really pimped up V8 cars here in Australia. No issue about not enough power at all. Any more power and I wouldn’t trust myself😊
I think there is a confusion between form factor and type of chemistry...Tesla uses cylindrical batteries due to their cooling efficiency as stated by Elon as they cool the batteries from the sides of the cylindrical cell and the form factor can be the type of the cylindrical cell which is18650, 2170 or 4680 and the chemistry is then LFP and so on. Please correct me if my understanding if wrong.
Tesla uses cylindrical cells because they are Fast and cheaper to build. They started using 18650 because they were already mass produced so benefitted from economy's of scale. Prismatic cells make more sense for LFP as it's so stable. Pouch cells are just a disaster waiting to happen. It could be what kills GM for good .
I was wondering if LFP will perform better or worse in cold climates. My Bolt looses about 100 miles of range in the dead of winter compared to the balmy summer days.
LFP is better than NCA if preheated, but much worse if used without preheating in freezing temperatures. Tesla has preheating which can be used from mobile phone and scheduling, so it's not a problem anymore. This issue was fixed in early 2022 updates
Model 3 LFP with heatpump does 160Wh per kilometer in cold weather under zero. Still damn damn good. It's like driving an other EV in summer. The cold however needs to be managed... keep it at a charger at night.
If the LFP batteries were made in the US, they would qualify for the full $7500 incentive, whereas now US made cars with Chinese LFPs are only able to get $3750.
LFP batteries are a type of Lithium ion battery chemistry. 4680 is a battery form factor, not a battery chemistry. The alternative to LFP is nickel batteries (NMC and NCA).
LFP refers to the battery chemistry (Lithium + Iron (chemical symbol Fe hence the F) + Phosphate) - the "blade" in BYD blade battery refers to the physical shape of the battery (rectangular blocks instead of round cells) - BYD blade batteries are also LFP batteries.
I guessed they were the same 280 amp hour cells that I have judging by the size of that blue pressure relief window and the cell width. They make them in 310 amp hour as well.
I live in the province of Québec, in the past two weeks the temperature droped below minus 20 C ( minus 13 F). My wife ordered a model 3 rwd that is expected to be delivered in early April. I understand it will equiped with an LFP battery. I hear negative comments and I am reconsidering that décision. What are the facts and where can I get reliable information?
I read opposite info: lfps losing capacity faster than normal lithium ions, whats true now? And is loading to 100 percent daily really healthy for lfps? Or is it just a tesla recommendation with other goals? If you had 2 cars, one lfp and one 4860 non lfp, both identically driven, which battery would have less energy left after 5 years, same usage, same weather, temperatures, same kms?
What happens with LFP is during the first 20,30,40 charge cycles they drop range - some say by as much as 10% - (100% regular or 50% regular & 100% weekly charging doesn't matter) - there is a coating formed within the battery cells that impacts the range (it slows down / reduces the charge exchange between the cells) - after the initial charge cycles are done they stabilise and drop range much slower than the older NCA batteries, it takes a while for the LFP battery to catch up with the NCA but eventually they will degrade less. The actual point at which they overlap will vary battery to battery, but after 5 years you are definitely better off with the LFP on average.
I think the batteries will be develop, and if now the LFP will be free to use, then, more manufatories will invest in them. My guess is that, the LFP will be getting more power in near future. Because there are soo much to earn, if somebody can improove them, it will happend. 👍😎👍
I think American media are trying to ignore BYD. But its coming to where I live and I will buy a suv at a cheaper price than I paid for a GM suv in 2015 I have a captiva and will get a Yuan plus.
@@jeanpaulmartin9696 BYD will introduce a premium brand a bit later on. But I think they are in for a shock(pun) with the demand of the 800 volt platform once its in the marketplace
What’s his thoughts on LUCID and their technology considering their ceo came from Tesla and the fact that they’re car has a ridiculous amount of range on a single charge.
The blade LFP, with its cell-to-pack arrangement can lead to much lower battery weight, and translates to better power to weight ratios. Tesla’s massively heavy cylindrical cell was always too much dead weight. Batteries that form part of the chassis structure was always going to win out.
LFP batteries are not built in the US factories because China owns the patents. Only in the last months have they started allowing them to be brought to the US: Graphene has been the miracle material for the last 15 years. It is amazing stuff, but since it is still so much more expensive it has never really taken off.
Just checked the Tesla website and they added yet another $1000 to the base price of a Model 3 with the new battery pack. 45,000 for a base model 3 when a year ago they were 37…38? Hard pass.
7% inflation accounts for almost half the difference. The other is high demand and short supply. Tesla is already selling all the cars they can make. It's only logical then that they raise the price.
@@davidboothbyiii8249 That makes sense. I'm just not sure where else you'd go instead if you need a car. It seems like all other vehicles have gone up in a similar fashion. Even the used market is insane right now.
@@lionelhuts875 I hear that. As it is I absolutely refuse to buy a used car. In fact I just traded a 5year old Ford for at only a 22%loss from original out the door cost. New vehicle was marked up to about the same price as a current RWD M3 but more practical.
LFP is prismatic, not pouch. Tesla might use LFP in 4680, but LFP is not as energy dense as NCA, and and a cylindrical form factor is less energy dense than a prismatic cell. So it would be a double hit on energy capacity.
@@tommckinney1489 yeah, my fault. But they wouldn't be able to make a structural lfp pack if they kept them prismatic i think so I hope they will make 4680 lfp cells.
M3 with LFP tested and its absolutely not a big diff from the other batt If these can be built with less environmental impact I would recommend these for the massproduced BEVs. For best cold weather performance preheat before takeoff
Would you ask Sandy, it seems like Hyundai/Kia is betting on solid state batteries developing in Korea. With all the hype in the news regarding solid state batteries, can they be mass produced? If they can be, when would be the critical point where solid state batteries beat 4680 batteries, assuming at that time 4680 has reached its maximum potential known today?
Current SSBs need to be maintained between 60 and 80°C at all times, due to thermal expansion. Ok for commercial vehicles, but impractical for domestic drivers
You should stop charging NCA cells at 80% if you want your batteries to last. All Telsa cars made in the USA to date have NCA cells. What kills NCA cells is: being left at at full charge for long periods of time, ie, @ 4.2V, and, high temperatures. Your NCA battery will last less than 3yrs if it is fully charged all the time and kept warm, just like what happenes to your laptop battery.
I might have challenged Sandy’s comparison between 8-cylinder and 4-cylinder as well. Perhaps comparing an 8 cylinder to a ^ cylinder would be better? Better still, just list the performance specs between LiFePO and the nickel based batteries.
Considering how the model 3 SR has a 150 kW motor, LFP batteries should be able to hit those levels of power delivery with little to no issues if they're premium cells. End users will see no difference between LFP cells in their model 3s vs licoo2 cells currently used in 2170 cells. LFP batteries are just heavier. LFP cells would hit 160Wh/kg vs 200Wh/kg with cooling for 2170 cells. Weight would be the only tradeoff hence there's no real reason to list it for Tesla.
Smart guy but he did not have all the answers correct for your questions. He misunderstood your 100% charge question. You are correct LFP can be charged to 100% charging lithium to 100% frequently can damage the battery overtime. And the reason that LFP has been built in China but not in the USA is a combination of patents surrounding LFP battery technology that have been sourced for China manufacturing but do not allow for out of China until these parents expire in 2022
I've got an lfp Sr model 3. It's still pretty freaking fast. Makes my mates impressed
Exactly... It's damn fast...lol. I only saw people who never tried it complain. I think standard range is way more than enough. I drove old Audi s6 V8 340 HP before Tesla... I also had 3.0 TDI chipped to 280 HP and Tesla RWD feels much faster in mid range... Much, faster
LFP batteries are not manufactured in the USA due to the current patent that is held in China, but this will change in 2022 as the patent will expire, so potentially LFP batteries could be available to be manufactured in the USA or anywhere for that matter. The one downside that was exposed by Tesla model 3's with LFP that were delivered in the EU, is their cold weather charging performance. This has been mitigated by better battery thermal management that Tesla has updated since the issue arose last year. I currently have 4KWH of LIFO batteries in my RV and I replaced 360lbs of AGM Lead acid with 75lbs of LFP batteries, never been happier. They charge so well I had to put a DC to DC converter between my 260amp Alternator and the house batteries to limit charge current, or the Alternator would have been fried as those LFP batteries are charge hungry, very different the AGM!!
I believe the patent is held in Canada. When the patent was filed an error in the filing made LFP available to China. The Canadian patent holder did not pursue legal action against the Chinese. But you are absolutely right, the patent will expire in 2022.
I have a 1.2kwh LiFePO4 battery in my work trailer. Takes the charge faster from the solar panel and from the towing vehicle so I have power all day. I use it to recharge my electric lawn service equipment. Like the commenter above, it replaced a lead acid battery that was more than twice the weight.
Interesting....thx for sharing it!
They should have done the interview with you😂
@@beefitter I assume the Canadian patent holder has/is being compensated by China?? Should have brought suit against the patent authority.
I ordered and got a Model 3 SR+ with the LFP battery in September. I switched my order so that I could get it quicker. I know that this is the “slowest” Tesla, but it’s still quick enough for me. I charge it to 100% almost every night.
Happy to say they don’t call it the standard range plus anymore, on there website it’s just called model 3, but to avoid confusion people are calling it the RWD.
People complain about speed but I’m sorry, I couldn’t care at all as long as it can just get going then that’s fine, range is way more important to me.
@@allenramen1380 that's the voice of the majority. But on those car shows, there are lots of fanatics my friend.
@@shoelessjoe5990 Great point, but even then, unless you drive hundreds of miles a day, you don't even need to charge that often, let alone to 100%.
@@shoelessjoe5990 I charge it more than I should because I charge at home. I got 1000 free supercharging miles that I am almost done with. I have no idea what the rates are at the supercharger. I may end up using it more than my home charger.
LFP is a type of battery chemistry. OTOH, 4680 is a form factor. Totally separate, unrelated issues. LFP could be 4680, or prismatic or whatever. 4680's can be LFP or nickel, cobalt, whatever. Totally separate independent issues.
BYD LFP are pouch batteries.
Correct
@@PC-vq5ud and others make LFP in cylindrical cells. I use them in several projects for many years now.
Teslas use either (cylindrical) NMC(A) or (prismatic) LFP. They don't mix and match. Nor should they, because part of the safety advantage of LFP is that you can use prismatic cells safely and claw back some volumetric energy density. Whereas cylindrical is much safer for the nickel chemistries, but less packing efficient.
@@concinnus To my mind the primary advantage of the 4680 form factor is that it enables a structural battery pack. The internal chemistry is a separate issue. If the prismatic (or 2170 or 18650 for that matter) form factor could be used in a structural pack, well then ...
I have in New Zealand a Tesla Model 3 SR+ made in Shanghai with the CATL LFP batteries. I change to 100% once a week and that is enough for my weekly use. Also great to do a trip with as there is no problem using the complete range from 100% to 1% without any battery damage.
LFP batteries usually have less capacity per kg or volume. So usually less range for the same pack. It loses more range in cold climates. But it has few advantages like: can be charged to 100% without degradation as the usual Li-Ion battery.
Also cycle life is double for comon li-on
Think about practical range of LFP vs Li-ion. A long range model Y is estimated 326 miles full charge, but that's not practical. 80 -10% is practical usage, so 326 becomes 228 miles practical, i.e., 70% of 326 = 228. Now, LFP 100 - 5% is practical, 95% of 260 = 247 miles. LFP chemistry is much safer against fire, much cheaper, double to triple the battery life, i.e., # of charge cycle life. I want to charge in my garage and leave every morning knowing I have 247 miles of practical range without any fear or concerns about my battery health. Does this make good logical sense?
Plus it's safer in an accident
The range issue is not that simple. If you don't preheat the battery under freezing temperatures, yes the range is poor. But if you preheat the battery, the range is actually very close to optimum and better than with NCA Batteries.
LFP is good for home battery storage like powerwall due to slower discharge, more cycles and lower cost materials
Also good for wheelchairs although not used yet by North American manufacturers, only in europe. Wheelchair users don't want the risk of fire that lithium-ion batteries have.
Yes! Your future Tesla maybe able to be grid tied or power your house during an outage. I would rather have LFP chemistry batteries for this because a Tesla LFP battery has 3000 - 4000 cycle life vs Li-ion 500 to 2000 cycles depending upon your charging care, i.e., always charge to 80% , discharge to 10-20%. Personally, the convenience LFP charging to 100% and discharge to 5% without any battery damage is worth my consideration. Am I missing something? Seems like a no-brainer choice.
Some people may appreciate the benefits of LFP over Li-ion. 1. 80% charge of 326 = 260 miles range, Li-ion recommended daily charge level to prevent damage. And, discharge limited to 10-20% also to prevent damage. (LFP) can be charged everyday to 100% and discharged below 5% without any battery damage. A fully charged LFP will give you 260 miles range compared to 228 miles for Li-ion , i.e., 70% of 326 if you charge to 80% and discharge to 10% to protect the battery. Conclusion: LFP battery is far more convenient on this point alone. Other advantages: much safer against thermal fire, lower cost, longer life. I want to charge my Tesla in my garage with LFP peace of mind that my house will not burn down because of a 1 in 50k chance of battery fire. There are disadvantages maximum charging current ~ 70kw/hr, i.e., 20 to 100% state of charge ~ 75 minutes. And, cold weather has been reported to reduce range by 50% in some cases. Conclusion, LiFePO4 has lower performance in cold climates and ~2x longer (super charging) charge time compared to LCA batteries.
Quick question Arthur: I've been preparing to build a battery for home solar energy storage and had gleaned that even LFP benefits from not fully charging or discharging. There are charts out there that show how many more cycles one gets when cycling more deeply or more shallow, and it seems to make a big difference. So perhaps the difference is that Li-ion sustains damage in the short term if fully charged/discharged, while LFP's life expectancy is gently affected over the years if given the same treatment? What do you think?
I am planning to go with LFP with my Model 3 order as I prefer the increased longevity and 100% charge ability. Even with the slower performance it is still faster than my Bolt.
Just ordered one with LFP.
So you do not care that your LFP battery will never catch fire both sitting in your garage charging or during a high speed crash where you survive the cash and also it does not give you a free cremation if you are trapped in the wreckage? That is why I to would choose the LFP battery!
The current SR+ LFP cars are just as quick as the NCA cars. I think Tesla is coming out with slower Model 3 “RWD” cars.
Changing your battery out before your original is used up seems silly and wasteful but I'm guessing they'll re use them.
@@gregb1599 if you are going fast enough to crash and start a battery fire you probably won’t be around to worry about what happens to your corpse anyways.
Please ask Sandy more about the roadmap for battery tech in the next 10 years.
Many of us are very interested in understanding when the masses will be able to afford a BEV. Will graphene technology, solid state batteries, and other tech increase Tesla's ability to scale battery production? Will this lend itself to more accessible BEV products?
It's anyone's guess. And a WAG is all you are going to get for 10 years out.
There's no clear roadmap right now. We're waiting to see if solid state batteries are viable. These are scheduled for 2024-2025 for release. These will likely be scheduled for high end vehicles. Solid Power projects gen 1 cells will hit $86/kWh. That would represent a per pack cost of around $100/kWh which is around the industry benchmark for 2025 projected by BloombergNEF. This would represent a cost reduction of around $50 per kwh for the cell.
For low end vehicles however the technology to look out for is Sodium ion batteries. CATL plans on producing cells by 2023 and they're projected to hit just $40/kWh. Following the same per pack pricing the actual cost should hit $55/kWh or maybe $65/kWh with a hybrid cell approach. This would be close to half the cost in 2023 of the equivalent lithium ion cells at the cost of heavier cells. A 50kWh battery pack would cost just $2750. With that you could have EVs in the $15000-20000 range. These would, however, likely come in 2025. I guess the year you're looking for though is going to be around then.
Sandy is a manufacturing guy and doesn't know squat about electronics, chemistry, or batteries.
Counterintuitively, octane makes gasoline a little less explosive. You want that in a high performance engine because usually the compression ratios are much higher and higher octane prevents pre-ignition. Something we'll soon forget after the ICE era.
A very informative, article, clear and understandable, clear in comparisons so everyone can understand. What is particularly good this is about the topic not an ego driven program. Thank you!
Have been asking myself for some time now "Why the obsession with 0-60 speed?". So now with the LFP...little less oooomph per Sandy Munro but better charging, safety, and range....sounds like a good trade to me.
If you were going to spend a lot of money on a car you'd expect speed, comfort, and gadgets. That will not get us to a revolution where the average schmuck drives a cheap electric car.
I thought the speed (0-60mph) comes from the motor. Confused. My 2021 SR+ LFP has the performance motor and the car is super quick!
All the way from Greece we love when Sandy is sharing his knowledge with us !!
If you could ask Sandy, why don't they use super capacitors for acceleration? In essence saving quick drain on the battery. A solar hood or braking could recharge the super capacitors in between acceleration periods.
good idea.
Great for electric aviation too
NAWA built a motorbike to do just this....will catch on in cars I think.
@@Patrick-bu5vy they did and it was beautiful. I think it was just a technology demonstrator? Great approach
Gr8 interview with Sandy Brother!
So my takeaway, if I have it right, is:
1. Go Lithium-Iron-Phosphate (LFP - an older, cheaper China patented battery chemistry and popular in China with lower energy density & more poor low temperature performance than NCM or NCA cathode types) ... So for lower cost vehicles like base Model 3/Y & $25k car ... where shorter range needs & quicker charging times to a full 100% are a benefit.
2. But for colder weather, Long Range or High Performance vehicles ... Go with the 4680 battery which is capable of greater energy density and range.
Thx & Cheers,
Eric
I really like Sandy Munro for his manufacturing expertise, and he does understand the basics of different battery technologies. But he is kinda soft on the key points about LFP which relate to energy density and cost. And it is important to note that China owns the LFP battery industry right now, so they have a HUGE interest in promoting it over NCA batteries that are mostly produced in Japan and Korea. The biggest benefit of Tesla's 4680 batteries is simply that they will help Tesla not be wholly dependent on Asian battery manufacturers that currently OWN all automotive battery production today. For most EV drivers today, they simply charge up at home overnight, and don't worry about public chargers, or charging speed, or maximum range. But those are still the main topic points that you see discussed on the internet as being the most vital needs and issues of EV ownership. They certainly are important for some people, but not for most.
Not sure if talking about battery chemistries is Sandy's forte. He just keeps repeating the same point about energy density.
Yes, and he didn't even lick the Tesla batteries when he got the chance to. 9:40
I normally respect Sandy, but he did not do his homework for this episode. LFP 'IS' a lithium battery. It is LiFePO4 (lithium iron phosphate). They contain no nickel, cobalt, manganese, or aluminum. These metals are all more expensive than iron. LFP has a different supply chain. Why is LFP good? Because they are cheaper and available and less likely, maybe even immune to burning. They also charge to 100% with no degradation. The downside is that LFP are less energy dense...the pack weighs more for the same kWh. They also provide less power (kW), therefore the 0-60 times are less, all else equal. Tesla just downgraded the 0-60 time for the standard Model 3 with LFP.
Yes its the tradeoff less safe+less weight+power moreweight+ more safe + less power
LTO 25-30k cycles indestructible, low power density
LFP(lifepo4) 8-12k durable, medium p.d.
Li-on car 2-4k hazardous, high p.d
Li-on phone. 0.8-1.5k dangerous, verry high p.d.
Most are li
Most are lithium, so when he talking only of the differences without repeating
100% charge on LFP is not inconsequential or does not degrade the battery. LFP degradation will drop by 10% in the first 50,000 miles, and charging to 100% does degrade the batteries faster.
The reason Tesla wants you to charge to 100% once a week is so the car's Battery Management System (BMS) can reset its internal knowledge of a "full charge" so it can watch and track the number of watts consumed while driving to give you a more accurate estimate of range.
NMC batteries have a nice voltage drop that is pretty linear as you consume power. You can use the voltage of the cells/pack to estimate capacity and power remaining.
LFP (LiFePO4) voltage drops some initially but then is very flat from say 85 to 15%, then the voltage drops even faster. You cannot look at the voltage and estimate state of charge.
Thus the BMS needs to know when you've hit 100% so it can reset its internal meter, then as you drive the BMS knows how much power has been fed to the motors and vehicle systems. Based on the roughly 60.5kWh battery capacity, and about 56kWh usable, the BMS can tell the car its estimate of the state of charge. As you drop below 15% and the voltage starts to drop, the BMS can be more accurate on the last 15% of the battery.
While the BMS can estimate how much you charge the battery, it can get off due to +/- errors in estimation, thus why Tesla says charge to 100% once a week at least.
You could probably extend this to every 2 weeks, and charge to 85% most of the time and be just fine, and probably extend the life of the battery pack. But with NMC lasting 1m miles, I dunno if you'll be alive to reap the benefits!
BYD is setting the standard with their LFP blade batteries. Their form factor lends to more cells in traditional platforms. BYD’s new vehicles with blade batteries, 800v charging will be considered by many future EV buyers. FYI the BYD Han AWD can accelerate 0 to 100km/h in 3.9 seconds.
LFP is the more sustainable option. They use materials that are plentiful in the Earth's crust, they're cheaper, safer, last longer, and are easier to recycle. I won't buy anything else. Also, BYD gets high performance out of their LFP blade batteries. No one ever talks about them though 🤔.
Correct. Even though LFP has a little bit less power. It will be the defacto standard for normal peoples cars. 1. It's dirt cheap. 2. It's good to recycle. 3. It lasts super long. 4. It's safe. (Overall an LFP is a more attractive second hand car because the batteries last long.)
@@HermanWillems I have the Model 3 with the LFP and it's fantastic. When you consider that I can charge daily to 100%, I don't really think I'm losing out on much range compared to a ternary pack.
Thanks Alex.
You and Sandy make a great couple.
I know you compare cars test drives to dates. I compare your interviews like chatting up or dates too.
Look at you Alex with the lady from transport evolved for instance.
You two are hilarious 🤣🤣😂
Cheers buddy. Interview Nicki 💕💕💕
Right off the top: LFP is a chemistry. 46-80 is a form factor. I'm pretty sure that in due time, LFP batteries will be produced in the 46-80 form factor and built into structural battery packs. . This will allow better range, more charge cycles and lower cost than any other combination currently available.
Wow! Until I saw this video, I had no idea that Tesla was using prismatic cells in any of their products. I don't expect that will continue for long.
@@e-redj To be clear:
1) Pouch and prismatic are not the same. prismatic cells have a lot more structural integrity. The pouch form factor is part (not all) of the reason that the Chevy Bolt batteries have failed.
2) It is more difficult and more expensive to build batteries in the prismatic form factor. The main reason for doing this is to achieve higher energy density at the pack level than would normally be possible with cylindrical cells. But that benefit is lost when the cylindrical cells become part of the structural strength of the vehicle. To be specific, like the Tesla structural battery pack.
No, prismatic cells are not suitable for integration into a structural battery pack.
That is why I do not believe that Tesla will continue to use prismatic cells once the 46-80 cylindrical cells become widely available. How long it will take Tesla to get the new manufacturing process to work with the LFP chemistry is something I do not know. But, I'm sure that it's coming.
LFP cells can be completely destroyed in one charge cycle if they are charged while frozen. They must be using some kind of battery heater or BMS low temperature disconnect in cold climate vehicles.
Yes. Better keep it connected to AC charger so it will keep on temperature in the winter.
I am using LFP batteries for around 10 years now, both in my cars and motorcycles as starting battery, and even electric bike.
Work good, probably 10% less than LiIon, but they last over 2000 cycles and are bullitproof.
I never understood why Electric cars not use them as starting battery.
Not enough energy density per kg yet.
@@herrba only 10% difference
@@herrba I could start my old Ducato 2.8Tdi Campervan with it. It was 2/3 lighter and even stronger than the old lead acid.
For my motorbikes it is even better, The Harley has a 18 pounds battery, that I replaced with a 5 pounds LFP battery. That thing is hugely more powerfull and has 8% drainage over a year, My lead acid would be dead after a year.
I have LFP batteries in my four wheel joystick controlled adaptive mountain bike. Plenty of range, and acceleration, and I appreciate the longevity of the battery.
Simple math:
LFP standard range: 250 miles = 250 miles
Lithium ion standard range: 262 miles... But it's recommended to only charge 90%, meaning you'll get 235.8 miles.
I had an FFP four engine start on the motorbike it was considerably better than the powerful lead acid that it replaced I tried it on a dual power drill and I could tell no difference in the performance between that and the 2170 is being used in the drill. Yes it’s bigger but not massively so and performance wise I could tell no difference
I’m surprised that the issue of patents wasn’t raised. To me that seems like the first consideration since the patent is expiring and royalties would not be required. China was given an exemption for mass production of the lithium iron phosphate batteries which is why their infrastructure is mature IMO.
This is the primary reason for LFP to not take off yet in other markets despite the cheaper materials. 2022 will see massive growth in LFP with both SK innovation and LG expected to start producing LFP.
Lfp have some benefit in city environment if you can charge only in superchargers. Then you can use deeper cycles and maintaining good cycle life.
I'm not sure why Sandy is making such a big deal about LFP cars being slow?!
I get it LFP's don't output as much as Li-ion however my LFP Model Y is WAY plenty fast enough!!!!!
I'm coming from a Subaru WRX 5 speed and the Model Y LFP is every bit as quick.
I personally would like to see Tesla slow down the quicker models because most people have no idea how to drive a car that quick.
Do you have any opinion s regarding CATL's new Sodium batteries? I would be interested in your thoughts on this topic. Thanks.
There is a great video of a SR+ LFP RWD car being pushed around Nürburgring with 5 people in the car..
Its the "Slowest" Tesla.. but as you can see in the video.. Its still PLENTY fast for almost any normal driver.
The main thing is the LFP wants to be charged to 100% all the time.. I think from a consumer perspective this is easier to understand.. Its just like your phone.. And probably will make for a more reliable long term battery.
How can you tell what type battery is installed in aTesla? VIN?
But some people say that the LFP battery is worse in cold weather. keep in mind that there are people who live in countries with cold weather such as Sweden Canada Norway
Lithium sulphur if it works will be a game changer as the sulphur is available as waste product from petroleum industry and others , just waiting for somebody to buy up
I understand that LFP discharge more quickly when not charging.
Do you mean self discharge while not being float charged? If so, I have seen my banks of LFP batteries hold charge for 2-3 months at a time completely disconnected with no float charger on. My AGM battery bank shows a fair amount of discharge after a week without a charger connected. LFP batteries have minimal self discharge.
The LFP battery seems ideal for the Tesla cars going to Hertz. No need for super speed, but able to charge them to 100% at rental time.
How is the LFP Battery different from the traditional LiFePO4?
They are the same. It's just easier to type or say LFP.
Penn State's LFP self heating battery is interesting. Wang's lab is stating that even heating prevents dendrites.
3:04 Common knowledge.... LFP, durable and cheap ^^
S K America in Commerce GA is going to make these battles for Ford and GM. How I wish I own a Ford Transit Van.
Brilliant video. So much truth from you both. Carry on.
my 2011 Nissan LEAF 24 kwh.. has lost three bars and the range is down to 60 miles . will LFP batteries fit and replace the original cells .
LFP is better for most vehicles and people. They are safer, cheaper, last longer, more available and like to be fully charged unlike nickel. They weigh more and don’t like cold temperatures. So those living in mild/warm climates will be fine with a LFP pack.
I love Sandy but he clearly has no idea about types of batteries, "with LFP you get to your destination faster because they charge faster but they drive slower" -- OMG dude time for your warm milk and wooly socks for the day :D
So watt charges faster? the LFP or the other lithium ion? I love my 2015 Fiat 500e LFP but not the range degradation of my 2015 Tesla Model S.. Great video update on Tesla China.
LFP is also a lithium-ion battery, don't get confused. It's the other stuff like Iron vs. Aluminium that are different, not the Lithium Ion. The "F" is for Ferro = Iron. In NCA battery the A is for Aluminium. Per volume, the LFP just can hold less lithium Ions than NCA battery and therefore you need bigger battery for the same amount of energy
What I like about LFP batteries is that they like to be charged to 100% regularly. I wish that you would have talked about MP3 batteries. I heard that MP3s will be used in the 25G model
What I don't like about the batteries is they use a forever chemical that is showing up in soil and ground water. Bis-FASIs is the group of chemicals that are used. No video on the battery technology ever mention this highly toxic forever chemical..
@@enigmaticloremaster1700 hopefully recycling of the batteries will catch most of that stuff
Also the Chinese still own the patents on these LFP batteries. One to expire soon apparently and at that point they may make them here in the US.
Hello, I find it very interesting. Now the LFP battery in VE is fashionable. And I wonder, why does everything seem wonderful in the LFP? Could it be that the EV industry is hiding long-term problems with the LFP? For example, if they have iron, don't they rust over time?...
I'm about to order my Tesla and I have to choose between both chemicals and I can't find an answer...to this great dilemma, what would you choose as an engineer? thank you
I'm thinking that these batteries will be used for the hundred thousand Tesla's that have been purchased by Hertz
Correct
LFP batteries are good for energy storage. However, sometime i want to get sodium batteries.
Clarifying the comment about octane which I just learned. Higher octane does not contain more power per gallon but the octane determines pre detonation occurs. Most cars with normal compression engines get no advantage from higher octane gas. So the comparison is valid. If you have a car designed to need the high power rate delivery of lithium ion it is useful. Most cars just like with high octane it is not useful to have high power delivery batteries. Most people do not need a dodge demon or a plaid.
Ощущение, что ЛиФер больше для автобусов подходит. Или даже автобусов-троллейбусов.
Там можно пренебресь низкой плотностью энергии - считай перевозить лишнюю массу.
Скорости по городу небольшие. На конечных остановках зарядники поставить или поднять "рога" и подцепиться к проводам на ходу.
I am sorry but Sandy has one thing wrong about LFP batteries. They can output more power without damage than standard EV chemistry using nickle and cobalt batteries. The 2014 Chey Spark EV has LFP batteries outputs enough power so the car has 400 pound-feet of torque while the 2015 & 16 Spark EVs which has different battery chemistry using nickle and cobalt puts out 327 pound-feet of torque. LFP batteries can take higher charging voltages and current and can output more current. If Tesla is limiting the performance it is probably due to wanting to squeeze more range out of the car.
What Sandy has got right is pound per pound LFP batteries don't hold as much energy. Using the real world experience of the Chevy Spark EVs 2014 and 2015 through 2016 you can get a feel for the difference. 2014 Chevy Spark EV LFP battery is a 21 kilowatt hour while the 2015 and 2016 are Nickel-Rich NMC. (nickel-manganese-cobalt) and are 19 kilowatt hour. All years of Chevy Sparks have the same range of 82 miles brand new.
The 2014 Chevy Spark EV LFP battery 21 kWh weighs 86 pounds more than the 2015 & 16 19 kWh NMC batteries. Both LFP and NMC Spark EV battery packs take up almost the same amount of space. 2014 Volume/case: 133L / square-shaped verses 2015 & 16 Volume/case: 139L / square-shaped.
The 2014 Chevy Spark EV battery pack is 369 Volts. The 2015 & 2016 battery packs are 400 Volts. Even though the 2015 & 2016 are higher volts the 2014 Sparks EV have 400 pound-feet of torque compared to 2015 & 2016 327 pound-feet of torque. This tells you the 2014 LFP put out more amps than the 2015 & 2016 NMC batteries.
I have also been monitoring the Spark EV forums. So far the 2014 LFP batteries are holding up much better then the 2015 & 2016 NMC batteries. LFP batteries just don't produce as much heat when charging or discharging as NMC batteries. This is why they can handle higher voltages and currents than NMC batteries and last longer. LFP batteries can also do more charging cycles 2 to 3 times as many as NMC batteries. Since they don't use expensive nickle or cobalt they are cheaper to produce. You can drive a nail through a LFP battery and even though it will short it will not catch on fire. Drive a nail through a NMC battery or any other Lithium Ion battery and it will catch on fire.
LiFePo4 batteries are presently the best mass produced batteries. Tesla US is falling far behind on this, especially for the Powerwalls.
We have LFP on our standard Mod Y RWD. It has more than enough power. Don’t like to admit it but I’m smoking , really pimped up V8 cars here in Australia. No issue about not enough power at all. Any more power and I wouldn’t trust myself😊
Thank you
I think there is a confusion between form factor and type of chemistry...Tesla uses cylindrical batteries due to their cooling efficiency as stated by Elon as they cool the batteries from the sides of the cylindrical cell and the form factor can be the type of the cylindrical cell which is18650, 2170 or 4680 and the chemistry is then LFP and so on. Please correct me if my understanding if wrong.
Tesla uses cylindrical cells because they are Fast and cheaper to build. They started using 18650 because they were already mass produced so benefitted from economy's of scale. Prismatic cells make more sense for LFP as it's so stable. Pouch cells are just a disaster waiting to happen. It could be what kills GM for good .
Will there ever be an LFP battery with super capacitors to help with the power you get with the 4680 batteries?
I was wondering if LFP will perform better or worse in cold climates. My Bolt looses about 100 miles of range in the dead of winter compared to the balmy summer days.
LFP is better than NCA if preheated, but much worse if used without preheating in freezing temperatures. Tesla has preheating which can be used from mobile phone and scheduling, so it's not a problem anymore. This issue was fixed in early 2022 updates
Model 3 LFP with heatpump does 160Wh per kilometer in cold weather under zero. Still damn damn good. It's like driving an other EV in summer. The cold however needs to be managed... keep it at a charger at night.
How does a battery affect the motor speed?
If the LFP batteries were made in the US, they would qualify for the full $7500 incentive, whereas now US made cars with Chinese LFPs are only able to get $3750.
What is the 0-60 difference?
.5 seconds in the Tesla model 3
@@robertyu7341 so only a half second difference? Hardly noticable, IMO
@@sctexan5392 for 99% of drivers, absolutely.
LFP batteries are a type of Lithium ion battery chemistry. 4680 is a battery form factor, not a battery chemistry. The alternative to LFP is nickel batteries (NMC and NCA).
Very Cool where do I or how can I get some?
😀
Licking things is the Car Wizards deal... so good. LOL
BYD should partner with Tesla!!!
Is the Tesla LFP battery liquid cooled?
Great program. Alex was very excited... {pourquoi ?}
How do LFP batteries compare to BYD blales batteries
LFP refers to the battery chemistry (Lithium + Iron (chemical symbol Fe hence the F) + Phosphate) - the "blade" in BYD blade battery refers to the physical shape of the battery (rectangular blocks instead of round cells) - BYD blade batteries are also LFP batteries.
Those cells at 9:50 look 50-100 ah size . 200ah is higher
I guessed they were the same 280 amp hour cells that I have judging by the size of that blue pressure relief window and the cell width. They make them in 310 amp hour as well.
I live in the province of Québec, in the past two weeks the temperature droped below minus 20 C ( minus 13 F). My wife ordered a model 3 rwd that is expected to be delivered in early April. I understand it will equiped with an LFP battery. I hear negative comments and I am reconsidering that décision. What are the facts and where can I get reliable information?
with the LFP patent ending soon the LFP batteries will become cheaper, though China has a special deal to use LFP locally with no royalty payment.
I read opposite info: lfps losing capacity faster than normal lithium ions, whats true now? And is loading to 100 percent daily really healthy for lfps? Or is it just a tesla recommendation with other goals? If you had 2 cars, one lfp and one 4860 non lfp, both identically driven, which battery would have less energy left after 5 years, same usage, same weather, temperatures, same kms?
What happens with LFP is during the first 20,30,40 charge cycles they drop range - some say by as much as 10% - (100% regular or 50% regular & 100% weekly charging doesn't matter) - there is a coating formed within the battery cells that impacts the range (it slows down / reduces the charge exchange between the cells) - after the initial charge cycles are done they stabilise and drop range much slower than the older NCA batteries, it takes a while for the LFP battery to catch up with the NCA but eventually they will degrade less. The actual point at which they overlap will vary battery to battery, but after 5 years you are definitely better off with the LFP on average.
See Recurrent's studies on battery life.
Love your videos, most informative.
I think the batteries will be develop, and if now the LFP will be free to use, then, more manufatories will invest in them.
My guess is that, the LFP will be getting more power in near future. Because there are soo
much to earn, if somebody can improove them, it will happend.
👍😎👍
LFP will outnumber NCA several times, LFP will be used for powerwall, megapack, standard range vehicles.
Gotta say buy USA 🇺🇸 Regardless or, if not, buy Australian 😄. Like being informed of all EV stuff, even from your followers comments.
Byd blade LFP battery takes there Han, which is about the same size of the Model S, from 0 to 100km/h in 3,9 secs, that’s fast enough for me.
I think American media are trying to ignore BYD. But its coming to where I live and I will buy a suv at a cheaper price than I paid for a GM suv in 2015
I have a captiva and will get a Yuan plus.
@@ianburnett4605 Yes they focus on Tesla competition like Nio or Xpeng but not on GM and Ford competition like Byd, Geely, Hozon and others.
@@jeanpaulmartin9696 BYD will introduce a premium brand a bit later on. But I think they are in for a shock(pun) with the demand of the 800 volt platform once its in the marketplace
What’s his thoughts on LUCID and their technology considering their ceo came from Tesla and the fact that they’re car has a ridiculous amount of range on a single charge.
Why dont have a mix of different batteries.
The blade LFP, with its cell-to-pack arrangement can lead to much lower battery weight, and translates to better power to weight ratios. Tesla’s massively heavy cylindrical cell was always too much dead weight. Batteries that form part of the chassis structure was always going to win out.
4680 are part of the chassis structure though.
LFP batteries are not built in the US factories because China owns the patents. Only in the last months have they started allowing them to be brought to the US: Graphene has been the miracle material for the last 15 years. It is amazing stuff, but since it is still so much more expensive it has never really taken off.
Just checked the Tesla website and they added yet another $1000 to the base price of a Model 3 with the new battery pack. 45,000 for a base model 3 when a year ago they were 37…38? Hard pass.
7% inflation accounts for almost half the difference. The other is high demand and short supply. Tesla is already selling all the cars they can make. It's only logical then that they raise the price.
@@lionelhuts875 I’m not saying it’s unworthy, just saying I’m not paying it
@@davidboothbyiii8249 That makes sense. I'm just not sure where else you'd go instead if you need a car. It seems like all other vehicles have gone up in a similar fashion. Even the used market is insane right now.
@@lionelhuts875 I hear that. As it is I absolutely refuse to buy a used car. In fact I just traded a 5year old Ford for at only a 22%loss from original out the door cost. New vehicle was marked up to about the same price as a current RWD M3 but more practical.
So it looks like LFP may be a good choice for stationary use, like the Powerwall....
Sorry, normally love Sandy, but so much confusion over LFP vs battery dimensions. Surely the discussion should be LFP vs. Nickle/Cobalt?
And aren't both technically Lithium ion?
বার্নাব্যু তে ২০৩০
বিশ্বকাপ ফাইনাল হলে রিয়াল মাদ্রিদ কি চেম্পিওন হতে পারবে?
7:03 I think he meant CATL, not Qatar.
now every standard range plus comes with one i mean rwd model 3s
Incorrect: …which I am now a proud owner of.
Correct. …of which I am now a proud owner.
Just sayin’. 😎
I’m glad you realized I’m teasing. Another great video, Alex!
Why not make 4680 lfp batteries? Do they need to be prismatic?
LFP is prismatic, not pouch. Tesla might use LFP in 4680, but LFP is not as energy dense as NCA, and and a cylindrical form factor is less energy dense than a prismatic cell. So it would be a double hit on energy capacity.
@@tommckinney1489 yeah, my fault. But they wouldn't be able to make a structural lfp pack if they kept them prismatic i think so I hope they will make 4680 lfp cells.
M3 with LFP tested and its absolutely not a big diff from the other batt
If these can be built with less environmental impact I would recommend these for the massproduced BEVs.
For best cold weather performance preheat before takeoff
High octane does NOT provide more power. It merely tightens the window of ignition.
Would you ask Sandy, it seems like Hyundai/Kia is betting on solid state batteries developing in Korea. With all the hype in the news regarding solid state batteries, can they be mass produced? If they can be, when would be the critical point where solid state batteries beat 4680 batteries, assuming at that time 4680 has reached its maximum potential known today?
Current SSBs need to be maintained between 60 and 80°C at all times, due to thermal expansion. Ok for commercial vehicles, but impractical for domestic drivers
LFP is kinda more for energy storage than automotive applications.
Why ?
Shorter range but you dont stop charging at 80% so range is the same.
You should stop charging NCA cells at 80% if you want your batteries to last. All Telsa cars made in the USA to date have NCA cells.
What kills NCA cells is: being left at at full charge for long periods of time, ie, @ 4.2V, and, high temperatures. Your NCA battery will last less than 3yrs if it is fully charged all the time and kept warm, just like what happenes to your laptop battery.
@@nordic5490 not an issue with Lithium iron phosphate
Are we just talking about LiFePO4 battery chemistry often featured in lithium-"ion" jump packs?
Yes, LFP is just a shorter abbreviation for lithium iron phosphate.
I might have challenged Sandy’s comparison between 8-cylinder and 4-cylinder as well. Perhaps comparing an 8 cylinder to a ^ cylinder would be better? Better still, just list the performance specs between LiFePO and the nickel based batteries.
Considering how the model 3 SR has a 150 kW motor, LFP batteries should be able to hit those levels of power delivery with little to no issues if they're premium cells. End users will see no difference between LFP cells in their model 3s vs licoo2 cells currently used in 2170 cells. LFP batteries are just heavier. LFP cells would hit 160Wh/kg vs 200Wh/kg with cooling for 2170 cells. Weight would be the only tradeoff hence there's no real reason to list it for Tesla.
Smart guy but he did not have all the answers correct for your questions. He misunderstood your 100% charge question. You are correct LFP can be charged to 100% charging lithium to 100% frequently can damage the battery overtime. And the reason that LFP has been built in China but not in the USA is a combination of patents surrounding LFP battery technology that have been sourced for China manufacturing but do not allow for out of China until these parents expire in 2022