Can't wait for your analysis of the cell. I'm interested in current and potential future energy density for these cells. 4 to 5 hundred mile range possible?
A sealed cell is not a concern. It's the opened jellyroll that you don't want to touch. Even then, it's not clear if it is toxic or not, but smart to be safe.
I don't believe that touching a lithium jelly roll is that a concern. As long as you wash your hands afterwards it's maybe as dangerous as having some gas on your hands after filling your car. I assume Sandy has touched a lot of extremely poisones things in his career. The jelly roll shouldn't be a big issue. Of course, eating or breathing that stuff is definitely a very bad idea.
@@TheLobo91 - The voltage was not the concern, it's the possibly toxic/acid compounds from pulling the battery apart, although the concern could be overrated. Better to be safe when you don't know what you're dealing with.
It’s great the dry cell process is now working and in production. It will only get better and more reliable from here on out! Can’t wait to see Gen 3 4680’s.
Partially. There is evidence that Tesla is purchasing cathodes (wet process) from a Chinese company for the 4680 cells made in Giga Texas. The suggestion is that some cells are made with wet cathodes and some with dry. Clearly Tom Prucha thinks that this cell will prove to use the dry process, but doesn't know yet until more testing is done. The one new thing I learned was that the anode has some silicon in it.
It is till speculation, deducted from the lack of manganese. But of course that would be big news, if they managed to also coat the anode with the dry coating process, as Tesla then could ramp the cell production by adding new production lines.
Curious to see the next video regarding official battery analysis on this version of 4680 considering Tesla announced first dry cathode prototype just recently, weeks after this video was posted. Was it perhaps more "dry" than previous gen, but not quite fully there? Can't wait to see numbers on silicon percentage and energy density. Thanks as always for the product.
The general layout of the tab-less cells made incredible sense when shown at battery day. It’s been a long road to getting these ramped up to full scale production AND better power than 2170 and others. Still waiting patiently 🤔 Thanks!!!
nice video guys, i would suggest taking more closeup photos of some elements and having them part of the video if it does not require too much editing, great job, thank you for the insights!
This channel is just a pleasure to watch. Senior experience smart engineers get into details and then show a passion for what they do is fantastic. Keep it up Munro and Associates!
@@tabbott429 lol you are clueless. Ever heard of the EQXX? The Mercedes CLA will use some of the insights/technology from fhe EQXX to be the most efficient EV of its class (same class as the new Model 3 btw). Mercedes is still the only car manufacturer being level 3 autonomous driving certified around the world. They also boughr Yasa to further develop the axial-flux electric motor and the new electric Mercedes AMG models will have those very compact and powerful motors.
Question? What's the RATIO of the electrolytes? Still using Lithium I'm guessing. Are the 4680 cells more ENERGY dense then the 21700 or the 18650 cells? What's the overall cost comparing all 3?
That’s what I want to know. Some people are speculating that we will see a longer cell eventually as the Cyber truck battery tray could compete with a 4695. Overall though it seems that the 4680 isn’t performing… just yet.
"Are the 4680 cells more ENERGY dense then the 21700 or the 18650 cells?" I would hope so, otherwise it would be pointless. They are probably 3 times the energy than 21700.
Thanks so very much Sandy. As an investor, the 4680 has been hair pulling as its holding up Semi, Roadster, Not Model 2, even with Cybertruck now ramping. Was looking to see When they would inject Silicon in the cathode, When they would have dry process on both sides to finally eliminate the ovens and what the energy density will be. They were originally targeting 300 wh/kg, think they can get by with 280 wh/kg and still produce Semi at a reasonable price (esp with fully dry electrodes)... and clearly they are in no rush there if the factory construction rate is any indicator. Aggggghhhhh! Mexico, Semi, Not model 2... delayed because of ???? Don't get me wrong, Many good things, but all the hair pulling seems to lead back to 4680. On pins and needles for your energy density findings. (Christmas is comming... don't want coal!). So very much abliged that you are doing this. So little info on the One metric to finally tell us where we are. (240 wh/kg was a Huge disapointment).
There simply is not the labor to complete these projects in the places Elon is doing them. Sparks Nevada. Go look for the nearest housing development. It's in the California mountains, some 80+ miles away. There are labor shortages nationally, as Boomers die & retire, and front line workers die or become disabled from the leaked bioweapon. All the hopes & dreams for the Cybertruck were based upon supply chains, labor pools, and geopolitical forces which have since taken a hard turn against what Tesla is trying to do. The US does have national labs & materials research institutes, but that work isn't going to help Tesla with their specific problems. Everything is getting "enshitified" (see Cory Doctorow) even Tesla, it seems.
I think he meant the cell and the cell size in general. Because that is what I think about every time I see any tech videos about them. I just want to be able to buy these cells on the open market and I can not wait until they are available. I have lots of projects and plans for what I want to use them for.
@@MunroLive Yeah as the other person said, I'm talking about general availability. Like how you can buy new 21700 or 18650 cells from various suppliers or eBay :)
@@dogbreath6974 We don't care about Tesla 4860. We just want the cell from who ever. And it is not only Tesla who makes them in this size. The actual performance is often pretty close for similar types of cells. And by types I mean if it is a max capacity or a max amp cell. Or something in-between. I just want 4680 to be available so I can buy them. I would even buy a Chinese version if I could not find a Korean or Japanese. It is the size with the possibility for a stronger cell with more capacity that is interesting. Not the Tesla branding or their version of the tech.
Removing the "spider" and welding the anode to the case was almost certainly done for improved thermal conductivity. That spider was the choke point in an already difficult to cool battery. Glad to see the improved vent scheme. The "structural" pack teardown was a bit scary. If the primary vent failed and the anode end opened it would be very ugly.
Made in America battery, dry cell. Most other manufacturers forgot to Build battery factories buying all their batteries from expensive 3rd parties in Korea and China. Tesla also offers LFP batteries with no cobalt or nickel which love 100% charging/minimal fire risk. Competition trying to catch up to LFP. China is at the forefront of LfP batteries
Why haven't 4680's lived up to their Battery Day hype in terms of power density, charging speed, production volume, etc.? It seems like they are a bust - what am I missing?
Considering the energy throughput of the entire battery system, having a perforated secondary vent might lessen the explosive potential during failure. The battery would undergo an expansive deformation and baffle some of that energy. This is by design...
When the EV is using regenerative braking, surely that is switching the cell back to charging? Does that affect the number of charge cycles for the cell significantly? That is, if the EV is often switching from discharging to temporarily charging in a journey, is it shortening the battery life, or does the battery management system store the regen elsewhere and then use that first?
CATL has huge advantage - been making huge number of cells for decades, huge head start, subsidies, exchange rate advantage. I hope 4680 can make a go of it. Chemistries are in flux, eventually some chemistry will emerge w/ zero cobalt, zero graphite.
This is proof that Tesla is also concerned with the safety of it's vehicles. Fact that they have a blow out space built into the pack is something I hope never happens but it gives me piece of mind.
@@1flash3571 OK, so in my head, I can equate positive/top to cathode and negative/bottom to anode? I'm starting to dig more into battery tech in general so want to start getting some of these connections down. Thanks!
And if he is venting to the outside without proper epa, filters for toxic dust scrubbers etc. more violations, but sandy knows best...doesn't he always
Would like to know the rrelative energy densities (next video), but now we know that they have both: Dry process on both sides (which should allow much cheaper production with no ovens) Silicon and much lower Cobalt.
The real question is.. is Tesla sandbagging these 4680's for now while they 'test' them. Or is the performance they're showing, all they're capable of? Because they are NOT charging at the speeds we hoped for.. and they are NOT extending range to levels we thought they would. And it's doubtful Tesla is yet seeing any cost savings.. yet. So if they are not sandbagging the performance of these cells while testing, and will uncork them in the future when they're certain they can do so.. well then the whole 4680 transition seems to be a dead end.. for now. These were supposed to give CT a 500 mile range.. AND way faster charging and a better charge curve.. it's got neither. If they can't figure out how to GET that kind of performance out of these cells pretty soon.. they'd be better off re engineering the whole pack to work with some of CATLs quite impressive batteries.. or any other battery manufacturer who's got the chops. CT needs more range.. at LEAST as an optional pack, for those who plan to use the truck for towing and whatever other reason a person wants. AND it NEEDS to charge much faster.
I don't think they are sandbagging, the 4680 is a dud. The next gen will most likely be CATL prismatic cell, using CATL's CTP 3. Tesla has been pulling equipment from CATL's factory in Shanghai in order to make a LFP cell in the US. Tesla was probably going to use cells built in China, but had to move manufacturing to the US due to the Inflation Reduction Act. In one of Sandy's videos, He talked about the extra room in the pack for thermal runaway. Maybe, but a prismatic cell would fit pretty well in there. Should be interesting to see what chemistries CATL will use, I assume they wont be Nickel rich, most likely Mn rich LMFP. The new hybrid Sodium-Lithium should be neat. As well as all of the fast charging innovations they have been making.
Tesla have publicly stated to investors that they are hoping to reach cost parity compared to external suppliers this year. That is, they definitely don't see any savings at this point.
@@w0ttheh3ll Tesla has also publicly stated that the 4680 is a Backup Plan. While I don't think they are actually Sandbagging, and are continuing to put effort into them, they were always going to be lagging in development. However, actually having a battery is better than no battery. The break even point will move with the dumping of batteries as OEMs continue to back off EV production. The US government reaction to Dumping is usually increased tariffs, so that might not actually help supply.
He mixed up cathode and anode - Anode is negative terminal and uses Copper current collector - Cathode is positive terminal and uses Aluminium current collector So the Cybertruck 4680 cell with the small top connector is the (+) terminal The flat bottom is (-) terminal “The anode (or negative electrode) in Lithium-ion battery is typically made up of Graphite, coated on Copper Foil. Graphite is a crystalline solid with a black/grey color and a metallic sheen.”
Im still got convinced with the 4680. Elon said its meant to half the cost of the battery pack. So far its only more expensive, heavier, and slower charging.
@@w0ttheh3ll pretty sure a few years back Tesla batteries were already at 3%Co, but from the video its not clear if they just stayed at that level, or reduced it even furter. i would guess the latter though.
@@markplott4820 not quite. Graphite content won't exceed 30% in most cells and can be below 20% in some. the anode active material is usually graphite, so it's very important, but the rest of the cell (cathode, separator, electrolyte) doesn't contain any graphite. and the anode itself has a lot of other stuff besides graphite, like binders (plastic glue-like particles) and the copper foil.
@@unitrader403 Do you mean 3% at the cell level? I was thinking of 5% of the cathode active material transition metals (like e.g. NMC 9:0.5:0.5). At the cell level that would be less than 2%.
Are you going to do a tensile test on the stainless steel exoskeleton? The toughest stainless steel alloy I was able to find was 1'690 MPa and 25% elongation at break. So that's 400 MJ/m3 of toughness, up there with spider silk and superalloys.
But according to munro,mush invented new metals,mush knows all...except they buy stainless from stainless maker,wait,sandy says tesla is vertically integrated..hmm,guess not. Sandi is confused . For such an expert on everything, he doesn't know what vertically integrated means. A stable genius,where have we heard that before? How did that work out?
The CT is not a exoskeleton. It is a uni body with regulair 401 stainless steel panels bonded on to function as a outer skin. It is defiantly not some super alloy and even if it was what use is it on a car?
Tesla, Inc.'s latest earnings show deteriorating fundamentals, with a 9% drop in revenue and a 55% decline in net profit margin. EV deliveries have decreased, operating expenses have increased, and the stock price remains high compared to competitors. Risks to a bearish thesis include potential innovations, market share growth in China, and strong global EV sales. But the stock is highly expensive, while the recent news is not encouraging.
The Cybertruck battery is supposedly 123 kWh. How many cells are there? I know "rated" is slightly different than actual but it would give us a start on the energy density math.
Now that CATL have the superior battery tech. Do you think its time to ditch these types of cells for full LFP as you can see the latest generation is way better for all sorts of reasons as well as no cobalt.
The liquid electrolyte contains highly volatile solvents that evaporate if a cell is opened. Alternately, if a cell fails internally and generates high heat a large amount of gas is released from the decomposition of materials in the cell.
A very safely done video despite some inconsistencies between what as said and done - do as I do, not so much as I say. So, the cathode is NCA and likely made using the dry process. The CT ramp is going well (1,300/wk??) and perhaps LG is supplying additional motherroll for both cathode and anode for a portion of CT cells as LG anode was seen near the Austin cell can scrap bin. Looks like Tesla has completed structural changes to the Austin building for the second batch of cell lines and will have all the equipment installed by year end. But getting it up to operating speed may take awhile. Given the extra capacity of the cells, and the 'reserve' for degegration and operation below zero miles of range left, the nominal capacity of the CT cells could be 100 Wh - thus nominal pack capacity could be 134.4 kWh, rather than 122.4 kWh. Thus the nominal rating of a new cell could be 10% higher than the usable quoted by Tesla.
Sandy this message is for you, in the beginning of your message you mention particle dusk from the batteries and I am sending you this statement. Three person has DIED AT A NORTH VOLT factory in Skellefteå Sweden where they are making batteries for BMW, VOLVO other OEM. My point is that three of there personnel had pass away in there factory and I believe 😢 that they do not have a good filter system in this factory and I think you should reach out to them from a engineering prospective.😢
At 8:00 Tom says they've largely eliminated the cobalt from the cathode. Then at 11:50, Sandy says it's the manganese that was removed...so which is it?
@@AntonioDiNunnoEVS I guess we'll have to wait for an analysis. Anyway, there was some minor inconsistency in the descriptions. Of course, the cathode may change depending on where it was sourced. We know Tesla is building their cathode building (presume dry process), but I believe they are buying wet-process cathode foil from Panasonic.
Cybertruck specs were originally promised, seemingly base don having 500 Wh/kg cells. Range numbers are WAY off in the vehicles to market. Even down on the competition. Will they have breach 300 Wh/kg with this generation? NIO is putting 360 Wh/kg into service now, their cute sedan will have 150 kWh against Cybertruck's 123 kWh...
Battery day didn't have 500wh/kg on the 4680 road map. As for this VS the competition, GM has pouch cells which are higher gravemetric energy density but way lower volumetric. Not to mention cycle life, degredation, and temperature performance. Rivian should beat Tesla here, but use high cobalt ammounts and a larger pack on a smaller truck. Their range should be better. Tesla is apparently using dry electrolytes which makes this effectively a solid state Battery and thus LFP or greater cycle life and degredation performance and un matched temperature performance. We'll have to see though how real world long term testing goes.
Interesting that Munro was schooling Tesla on body design and structural components and here, in the battery arena, they are struggling mightily to keep up with Tesla and "learn" this battery echnology.
Thanks to TWRAPS for sponsoring this video! Get 10% off your order with code MUNRO at twraps.com/
Love it! thanks guys!
Can't wait for your analysis of the cell. I'm interested in current and potential future energy density for these cells. 4 to 5 hundred mile range possible?
Says he does have gloves, not going to touch stuff… almost immediately picks up 4680. 🤣
A sealed cell is not a concern. It's the opened jellyroll that you don't want to touch. Even then, it's not clear if it is toxic or not, but smart to be safe.
Do you put on gloves when you pick up an AA battery? Or even 12v battery? It's 3.3v lol
It's not a bomb, sealed cells don't have exposure to hazardous materials.
I don't believe that touching a lithium jelly roll is that a concern. As long as you wash your hands afterwards it's maybe as dangerous as having some gas on your hands after filling your car.
I assume Sandy has touched a lot of extremely poisones things in his career. The jelly roll shouldn't be a big issue.
Of course, eating or breathing that stuff is definitely a very bad idea.
@@TheLobo91 - The voltage was not the concern, it's the possibly toxic/acid compounds from pulling the battery apart, although the concern could be overrated. Better to be safe when you don't know what you're dealing with.
Sandy: "I care about my people" I give THEM gloves, but I pick up this stuff bare handed. 🤣
yeah right, we have only one pair of gloves!
Do as I say, not as I do ;-)
Yeah he’s all man.
Sandy's hardcore like that.
Rules for yee but not for me
It’s great the dry cell process is now working and in production. It will only get better and more reliable from here on out! Can’t wait to see Gen 3 4680’s.
50% more cost Reductions.
Partially. There is evidence that Tesla is purchasing cathodes (wet process) from a Chinese company for the 4680 cells made in Giga Texas. The suggestion is that some cells are made with wet cathodes and some with dry. Clearly Tom Prucha thinks that this cell will prove to use the dry process, but doesn't know yet until more testing is done. The one new thing I learned was that the anode has some silicon in it.
It is till speculation, deducted from the lack of manganese. But of course that would be big news, if they managed to also coat the anode with the dry coating process, as Tesla then could ramp the cell production by adding new production lines.
They better hurry up - the competition seems to be moving much, much faster.
@@markplott4820 nope its not 50% in cost reduction and the battery cell is even bigger form factor and there are also alot of tradeoffs....
Thanks!
Thanks
Extremely informative. Really explains a lot about what makes a battery and how these work. Well done. Hats off to sandy and the team!
🙋♂️ THANKS SANDY ,TOM AND MUNRO FOR SHARING THIS INFO 🤗 🔋⚡️⚡️⚡️
Our pleasure!
wow. Looking forward to your charging/discharging characteristics and capacity videos. I love to see Tesla innovations kicking in.
Tom is a real engineer. He needs his own show!
tom talks a lot.....
I'm a real man too
@@davidanalyst671 I can handle more of it.
I love nerding and geeking out on this stuff. Thank you gentlemen.
That's the one I've been waiting for thanks sandy team u guys are awesome 👌
Thanks for watching!
On the edge of our seat waiting for a wh/kg test. Thanks Sandy and team!
you gotta pay them money for specs bro
Another excellent video presentation. Thank you
Our pleasure!
Super interesting, thank you!
Thanks for watching!
Where is your helicopter tour at?
Curious to see the next video regarding official battery analysis on this version of 4680 considering Tesla announced first dry cathode prototype just recently, weeks after this video was posted. Was it perhaps more "dry" than previous gen, but not quite fully there? Can't wait to see numbers on silicon percentage and energy density. Thanks as always for the product.
Another great content. Thanks for sharing this.
Thanks for watching!
Great video.. Thank you..
Glad you liked it!
The general layout of the tab-less cells made incredible sense when shown at battery day. It’s been a long road to getting these ramped up to full scale production AND better power than 2170 and others. Still waiting patiently 🤔 Thanks!!!
Good to see silicone in the anode. It should also help with the charging curve as they make some updates.
nice video guys, i would suggest taking more closeup photos of some elements and having them part of the video if it does not require too much editing, great job, thank you for the insights!
for long time, first video on channel that i watched from start to end. very informative and interesting.
This channel is just a pleasure to watch. Senior experience smart engineers get into details and then show a passion for what they do is fantastic. Keep it up Munro and Associates!
Glad you like them!
Sandy and his team are awesome
That was a cool video, thanks guys
Interesting take on the evolving tech in these cells, I'm very curious where this will take Tesla.
over 50% more cost Reductions.
CyberCell is a great name
grow up
@@carholic-sz3qv NO FUN ALLOWED!
This teardown drives home how fast they’re innovating and that it’s still early days
I don't see anything that is innovative. Mercedes is miles ahead on this battery tech.
@@salland12 If nothing else, the tabless design is miles ahead of anything else in the world.
@@salland12 yet mercedes isnt selling millions of EVS so theyre technically irrelevant in the EV market.
@@salland12how so?
@@tabbott429 lol you are clueless. Ever heard of the EQXX? The Mercedes CLA will use some of the insights/technology from fhe EQXX to be the most efficient EV of its class (same class as the new Model 3 btw). Mercedes is still the only car manufacturer being level 3 autonomous driving certified around the world. They also boughr Yasa to further develop the axial-flux electric motor and the new electric Mercedes AMG models will have those very compact and powerful motors.
Thanks great video. Hope they phase out old-fashioned 2170 and 1865 asap and migrate to this design for all ternary cell.
Sandy slamming his 4680 shot down on the table 5:00. When do 4680 shot glass sets become available in the Munro store?
When in doubt, just call it cathode. Great video guys :)
Awesome! Amazing job as always. Thanks for sharing!
Is the case still Ni-plated steel?
Question?
What's the RATIO of the electrolytes?
Still using Lithium I'm guessing.
Are the 4680 cells more ENERGY dense then the 21700 or the 18650 cells?
What's the overall cost comparing all 3?
That’s what I want to know. Some people are speculating that we will see a longer cell eventually as the Cyber truck battery tray could compete with a 4695. Overall though it seems that the 4680 isn’t performing… just yet.
"Are the 4680 cells more ENERGY dense then the 21700 or the 18650 cells?" I would hope so, otherwise it would be pointless. They are probably 3 times the energy than 21700.
Cost & weight improvements are my questions.
@@jonsek What about HOW MANY CYCLES it can take?
Hello from Azerbaijan. Thank you..❤❤❤
Thanks so very much Sandy. As an investor, the 4680 has been hair pulling as its holding up Semi, Roadster, Not Model 2, even with Cybertruck now ramping.
Was looking to see When they would inject Silicon in the cathode, When they would have dry process on both sides to finally eliminate the ovens and what the energy density will be. They were originally targeting 300 wh/kg, think they can get by with 280 wh/kg and still produce Semi at a reasonable price (esp with fully dry electrodes)... and clearly they are in no rush there if the factory construction rate is any indicator. Aggggghhhhh!
Mexico, Semi, Not model 2... delayed because of ????
Don't get me wrong, Many good things, but all the hair pulling seems to lead back to 4680.
On pins and needles for your energy density findings. (Christmas is comming... don't want coal!).
So very much abliged that you are doing this. So little info on the One metric to finally tell us where we are. (240 wh/kg was a Huge disapointment).
There simply is not the labor to complete these projects in the places Elon is doing them. Sparks Nevada. Go look for the nearest housing development. It's in the California mountains, some 80+ miles away. There are labor shortages nationally, as Boomers die & retire, and front line workers die or become disabled from the leaked bioweapon. All the hopes & dreams for the Cybertruck were based upon supply chains, labor pools, and geopolitical forces which have since taken a hard turn against what Tesla is trying to do. The US does have national labs & materials research institutes, but that work isn't going to help Tesla with their specific problems. Everything is getting "enshitified" (see Cory Doctorow) even Tesla, it seems.
242.7Wh/kg
Do we still have density numbers for CT battery? or just that its more "dense" than one in MY which was 244 wh/kg.
Will the battery degrade faster when charged at supercharge vs. at home?
good job!
Thanks!
Tom is a great speaker.
@12:35 it’s an NCA cathode, right? I wouldn’t expect to find much Mn (if any).
Not much Cobalt either. They didn’t say anything about Aluminum
@@richardvivian3665 exactly… or their analytical method. If they are using ICP, why not give us stoichiometry?
Not NCA
I was hoping to get the cell shell thickness comparison as well :)
Would love to be able to purchase these cells for various projects, wonder how long until it’s available
We're sorry, but we're not selling cells from our teardowns anymore.
I think he meant the cell and the cell size in general. Because that is what I think about every time I see any tech videos about them.
I just want to be able to buy these cells on the open market and I can not wait until they are available.
I have lots of projects and plans for what I want to use them for.
@@MunroLive Yeah as the other person said, I'm talking about general availability. Like how you can buy new 21700 or 18650 cells from various suppliers or eBay :)
i don't think Tesla are going to sell these 4680 cells to the general public, unless they have surplus which they need to move.
@@dogbreath6974 We don't care about Tesla 4860. We just want the cell from who ever. And it is not only Tesla who makes them in this size.
The actual performance is often pretty close for similar types of cells. And by types I mean if it is a max capacity or a max amp cell. Or something in-between.
I just want 4680 to be available so I can buy them. I would even buy a Chinese version if I could not find a Korean or Japanese. It is the size with the possibility for a stronger cell with more capacity that is interesting. Not the Tesla branding or their version of the tech.
Both the copper and aluminum rolls go into the can ?
Removing the "spider" and welding the anode to the case was almost certainly done for improved thermal conductivity. That spider was the choke point in an already difficult to cool battery. Glad to see the improved vent scheme. The "structural" pack teardown was a bit scary. If the primary vent failed and the anode end opened it would be very ugly.
They welded the anode tabs (copper) to the case and not the cathode?
@@DiptakBhattacharya Thanks for the correction. I shouldn't write while vid is still playing :-)
Made in America battery, dry cell. Most other manufacturers forgot to
Build battery factories buying all their batteries from expensive 3rd parties in Korea and China. Tesla also offers LFP batteries with no cobalt or nickel which love 100% charging/minimal fire risk. Competition trying to catch up to LFP. China is at the forefront of LfP batteries
4680 tabless dry cell gets rid of ovens/black slurry and processing times.
Can you speculate on the significantly reduced charging curve of the Model Y 4680 vs 2170 Teslas?
I like that he explains it in a way us average people can understand 👍😊
how do you weld the complex flower to the cap?
Why haven't 4680's lived up to their Battery Day hype in terms of power density, charging speed, production volume, etc.? It seems like they are a bust - what am I missing?
Considering the energy throughput of the entire battery system, having a perforated secondary vent might lessen the explosive potential during failure. The battery would undergo an expansive deformation and baffle some of that energy. This is by design...
When the EV is using regenerative braking, surely that is switching the cell back to charging? Does that affect the number of charge cycles for the cell significantly? That is, if the EV is often switching from discharging to temporarily charging in a journey, is it shortening the battery life, or does the battery management system store the regen elsewhere and then use that first?
CATL has huge advantage - been making huge number of cells for decades, huge head start, subsidies, exchange rate advantage. I hope 4680 can make a go of it.
Chemistries are in flux, eventually some chemistry will emerge w/ zero cobalt, zero graphite.
How does the charge cycle total up? A full cycle is from empty to full. How do you tally up a bunch of small charges. Are those considered as 1 cycle?
Thanks fellas :-)
You are very welcome!
Tom become greater and greater😆
This is proof that Tesla is also concerned with the safety of it's vehicles. Fact that they have a blow out space built into the pack is something I hope never happens but it gives me piece of mind.
No more so than a gas vehicle fire which is more likely.
Tom has a lot of information to provide. I really enjoyed his analysis
Thanks
Good video! Congratulations from brasil!
Thank you very much!
You know Sandy's Canadian when he calls bags begs
Eh?
Is the cathode always the top-side of any battery while the anode is always to bottom-side?
Yes. Just look at any non rechargeable batteries. The one with the TAB is the Positive side....
@@1flash3571 OK, so in my head, I can equate positive/top to cathode and negative/bottom to anode? I'm starting to dig more into battery tech in general so want to start getting some of these connections down. Thanks!
It’s always great to have a ventilation unit, but Y’all should also always think about investing in some high-end 3M Masks.
And if he is venting to the outside without proper epa, filters for toxic dust scrubbers etc. more violations, but sandy knows best...doesn't he always
There are 2 full face masks at the end of the table on the right.
We skipped the masks just for the sake of our audio.
what is the voltage of the cell? since you didn't mention it I assume there's no Lithium.
11:58. There's no manganese? So they're reverting to a nickel-cobalt-aluminum (NCA) battery? Isn't that what the old Model S used to have, I believe?
NCA is what all the Panasonic 2170s have.
Not NCA
Is the cathode the convex or the concave side of the jelly roll?
I’m curious to know if from the Texas plant the same cyber truck battery also goes into the model Y for 2024; do y’all know?
Good day from Goonellabah, NSW!🌏 When we get the Cybertruck, we will provide battery maintenance.
Would like to know the rrelative energy densities (next video), but now we know that they have both:
Dry process on both sides (which should allow much cheaper production with no ovens)
Silicon and much lower Cobalt.
Are the Cylindrical cells better than the Blade cells in terms of energy density assuming same chemistry is being used?
Cell level, no. module level, maybe. pack level, certainly
Cybertruck ❤❤
The real question is.. is Tesla sandbagging these 4680's for now while they 'test' them. Or is the performance they're showing, all they're capable of? Because they are NOT charging at the speeds we hoped for.. and they are NOT extending range to levels we thought they would. And it's doubtful Tesla is yet seeing any cost savings.. yet. So if they are not sandbagging the performance of these cells while testing, and will uncork them in the future when they're certain they can do so.. well then the whole 4680 transition seems to be a dead end.. for now. These were supposed to give CT a 500 mile range.. AND way faster charging and a better charge curve.. it's got neither. If they can't figure out how to GET that kind of performance out of these cells pretty soon.. they'd be better off re engineering the whole pack to work with some of CATLs quite impressive batteries.. or any other battery manufacturer who's got the chops. CT needs more range.. at LEAST as an optional pack, for those who plan to use the truck for towing and whatever other reason a person wants. AND it NEEDS to charge much faster.
i think Panasonic is sandbagging these 4680's cells
I don't think they are sandbagging, the 4680 is a dud. The next gen will most likely be CATL prismatic cell, using CATL's CTP 3. Tesla has been pulling equipment from CATL's factory in Shanghai in order to make a LFP cell in the US. Tesla was probably going to use cells built in China, but had to move manufacturing to the US due to the Inflation Reduction Act. In one of Sandy's videos, He talked about the extra room in the pack for thermal runaway. Maybe, but a prismatic cell would fit pretty well in there. Should be interesting to see what chemistries CATL will use, I assume they wont be Nickel rich, most likely Mn rich LMFP. The new hybrid Sodium-Lithium should be neat. As well as all of the fast charging innovations they have been making.
Tesla have publicly stated to investors that they are hoping to reach cost parity compared to external suppliers this year. That is, they definitely don't see any savings at this point.
If they made a double height battery pack they could get 500. But then they would make half as many trucks. 😁
@@w0ttheh3ll Tesla has also publicly stated that the 4680 is a Backup Plan. While I don't think they are actually Sandbagging, and are continuing to put effort into them, they were always going to be lagging in development. However, actually having a battery is better than no battery. The break even point will move with the dumping of batteries as OEMs continue to back off EV production. The US government reaction to Dumping is usually increased tariffs, so that might not actually help supply.
He mixed up cathode and anode
- Anode is negative terminal and uses Copper current collector
- Cathode is positive terminal and uses Aluminium current collector
So the Cybertruck 4680 cell with the small top connector is the (+) terminal
The flat bottom is (-) terminal
“The anode (or negative electrode) in Lithium-ion battery is typically made up of Graphite, coated on Copper Foil. Graphite is a crystalline solid with a black/grey color and a metallic sheen.”
Im still got convinced with the 4680.
Elon said its meant to half the cost of the battery pack. So far its only more expensive, heavier, and slower charging.
Pay more attention.
Soo, what I'm getting is "almost eliminated cobalt" and "no manganese". "Some silicon in anode".
No manganese is a huge surprise. "Almost eliminated" I would interpret as less than 5% Co, which would also be a surprise.
@@w0ttheh3ll pretty sure a few years back Tesla batteries were already at 3%Co, but from the video its not clear if they just stayed at that level, or reduced it even furter. i would guess the latter though.
battery cells are MOSTLY Graphite w/ plastic or metal Container.
@@markplott4820 not quite. Graphite content won't exceed 30% in most cells and can be below 20% in some.
the anode active material is usually graphite, so it's very important, but the rest of the cell (cathode, separator, electrolyte) doesn't contain any graphite. and the anode itself has a lot of other stuff besides graphite, like binders (plastic glue-like particles) and the copper foil.
@@unitrader403 Do you mean 3% at the cell level? I was thinking of 5% of the cathode active material transition metals (like e.g. NMC 9:0.5:0.5). At the cell level that would be less than 2%.
This was interesting!
Are you going to do a tensile test on the stainless steel exoskeleton?
The toughest stainless steel alloy I was able to find was 1'690 MPa and 25% elongation at break. So that's 400 MJ/m3 of toughness, up there with spider silk and superalloys.
But according to munro,mush invented new metals,mush knows all...except they buy stainless from stainless maker,wait,sandy says tesla is vertically integrated..hmm,guess not. Sandi is confused . For such an expert on everything, he doesn't know what vertically integrated means. A stable genius,where have we heard that before? How did that work out?
What handheld xrf do you use? Thermo or rigaku?
You write like a stable genius.@@cengeb
@@snookmeister55 I'm working on getting just the correct orange tint, stay tuned
The CT is not a exoskeleton. It is a uni body with regulair 401 stainless steel panels bonded on to function as a outer skin. It is defiantly not some super alloy and even if it was what use is it on a car?
Tesla, Inc.'s latest earnings show deteriorating fundamentals, with a 9% drop in revenue and a 55% decline in net profit margin.
EV deliveries have decreased, operating expenses have increased, and the stock price remains high compared to competitors.
Risks to a bearish thesis include potential innovations, market share growth in China, and strong global EV sales.
But the stock is highly expensive, while the recent news is not encouraging.
so this is an NCA battery?
Adorable voice whoever does the ads
you can see the perforation here:
puts the finger right on top of it and the whole thing semi unfocused.
Sandy! Please teardown and evaluate byd blade batteries
The Cybertruck battery is supposedly 123 kWh. How many cells are there? I know "rated" is slightly different than actual but it would give us a start on the energy density math.
Not necessarily Tesla has a habit of software lock range for testing etc..
you mixd up cathode / anode - aluminium/ copper cobalt / manganese
Cathode is at the top with the tab sticking out, which is the positive side...Not sure if they mixed that up.......
@@1flash3571 i know what it is thats why i said they mixed it up in the beginning
No, cathode uses an aluminum foil and anode a copper foil.
@@boostav@7:17 anode side is copper but picks up the aluminium
Gluten free jelly rolls! Tasty!
Sandy, please check out and tear down byd blade battery pack
Now that CATL have the superior battery tech. Do you think its time to ditch these types of cells for full LFP as you can see the latest generation is way better for all sorts of reasons as well as no cobalt.
Different tech. different applications.
@Sandy & Tom: Get me some samples of anode/cathode and I can do EDX elemental analysis if you wish.
So idk if it’s just me or not but they didn’t explicitly say this was dry cathode?
отчего образуются газы ?
The liquid electrolyte contains highly volatile solvents that evaporate if a cell is opened.
Alternately, if a cell fails internally and generates high heat a large amount of gas is released from the decomposition of materials in the cell.
A very safely done video despite some inconsistencies between what as said and done - do as I do, not so much as I say. So, the cathode is NCA and likely made using the dry process. The CT ramp is going well (1,300/wk??) and perhaps LG is supplying additional motherroll for both cathode and anode for a portion of CT cells as LG anode was seen near the Austin cell can scrap bin. Looks like Tesla has completed structural changes to the Austin building for the second batch of cell lines and will have all the equipment installed by year end. But getting it up to operating speed may take awhile. Given the extra capacity of the cells, and the 'reserve' for degegration and operation below zero miles of range left, the nominal capacity of the CT cells could be 100 Wh - thus nominal pack capacity could be 134.4 kWh, rather than 122.4 kWh. Thus the nominal rating of a new cell could be 10% higher than the usable quoted by Tesla.
Not NCA
👍
Sandy this message is for you, in the beginning of your message you mention particle dusk from the batteries and I am sending you this statement.
Three person has DIED AT A NORTH VOLT factory in Skellefteå Sweden where they are making batteries for BMW, VOLVO other OEM.
My point is that three of there personnel had pass away in there factory and I believe 😢 that they do not have a good filter system in this factory and I think you should reach out to them from a engineering prospective.😢
👍👍
At 8:00 Tom says they've largely eliminated the cobalt from the cathode. Then at 11:50, Sandy says it's the manganese that was removed...so which is it?
Both maybe?
@@mkkm945 as far as I know, these are NCMA 82:11:5:3
@@goldreverre nope
@@AntonioDiNunnoEVS I guess we'll have to wait for an analysis. Anyway, there was some minor inconsistency in the descriptions. Of course, the cathode may change depending on where it was sourced. We know Tesla is building their cathode building (presume dry process), but I believe they are buying wet-process cathode foil from Panasonic.
@@goldreverre That's the v2 cell, this is the cybercell.
Dry cell and silicon anode. 🤯
Cybertruck specs were originally promised, seemingly base don having 500 Wh/kg cells. Range numbers are WAY off in the vehicles to market. Even down on the competition.
Will they have breach 300 Wh/kg with this generation?
NIO is putting 360 Wh/kg into service now, their cute sedan will have 150 kWh against Cybertruck's 123 kWh...
Battery day didn't have 500wh/kg on the 4680 road map. As for this VS the competition, GM has pouch cells which are higher gravemetric energy density but way lower volumetric. Not to mention cycle life, degredation, and temperature performance. Rivian should beat Tesla here, but use high cobalt ammounts and a larger pack on a smaller truck. Their range should be better.
Tesla is apparently using dry electrolytes which makes this effectively a solid state Battery and thus LFP or greater cycle life and degredation performance and un matched temperature performance.
We'll have to see though how real world long term testing goes.
Interesting that Munro was schooling Tesla on body design and structural components and here, in the battery arena, they are struggling mightily to keep up with Tesla and "learn" this battery echnology.
"...what we know, from watching one of our competitor's videos,..." *record scratch* Who competes with Munro?
Attempts to
They need to use gold to reduce the amount the things degrade, like 1%.
get a et some fume hoods