If a female CS:GO player with the skill of a Simple,Forest or some other great players existed,she'd get picked up immediately by any team because at the end of the day the only thing that matters is what happens in the server and the gender doesnt impact that
***** You dont think if someone like Prime Forest or Liquid/Consistent Simple existed in female form right now someone like Faze,Liquid,Envy (All in Thorin's Top 10) would pick her up?Of course,language is barrier but say she spoke English/French just for this example,Envy needs a change and thats coming soon (French Shuffle),Liquid are nothing like they were and Faze could use some reinforcements (Although they could go far with the line up they have after that Oakland performance) imo they would chance it but I struggle to see where the MAJOR reservations would lie in picking up a girl when we have a female caster and females working in E-League and ESL (I think)
if you think that to sponsors and teams the only thing that matters is skill you are wrong, obviously it isn't, otherwise why would we have t5/6 female teams with salaries of male t1/2/3 teams
Whoever thought it was a good idea to have somebody who doesn't know jackshit about eSports or video game culture write something about the aforementioned topics should be fired from his or her job.
Clockwork orange style. Why would women want to compete? Men only compete to get women to sleep with them in the first place. The men I know who gets the most pussy don't even play games because picking up women and fucking takes up to much of their time ;)
I completely agree. I quit CSGO nearly 2 years ago and was highly skilled, one thing that frustrated me was watching players like MissHarvey. This isn't to say she isn't a good player but it's frustrating to watch someone thinking to yourself "I'm at least as skilled if not better but I wont have a career in eSports because I'm a male and the players I have to compete against would destroy me" it gets worse when you consider that even if I had started streaming I wouldn't have been very successful, I'm not overly charismatic (Apparently I'm funny when I'm mad) so why would anyone bother watching me? when you could watch an attractive women who is also very skilled at games... oh and I wouldn't have been the best player streaming either.
Or you ended up being without job , education and monetary perspective so you decided to focus on rather more important things than chasing the dream, even though I got 5th at Dreamhack 09 and won some small lans it wasnt enough to get picked up by the good teams, not only motivation but also luck plays a role.Therefore hearing about all this infuriated me , some MEN would do ANYTHING to get the things that female get without ever putting in the same effort as men have to and yet , we have this dialogue. Funnily enough I know 3 female gamers with huge potential but they decided to quit because all "good" female teams are formed because of the looks , not the performance.
Unicorndoo Strategies What a heap of shit. If you had any idea how hard I pumped eSports and specifically CSGO you wouldn't say I wasn't motivated enough. It's as simple as I wasn't good and too far behind on the experience curve, let's not also forget that 95% of the CSGO pro players were pro players for previous versions of CS. People can be motivated and not make it, don't believe what all these idiots will tell you about "oh never give up" if that was the case there would be a lot of players who were professional. Oh and I should probably point out I didn't have a career, albeit a small one and one I don't really count as being a "professional player" closer to a hobby with benefits.
I personally couldn't agree more. Most girls don't like playing Esports, in general. It doesn't mean we don't exist, but we are few and far in between. I myself don't get too into winning League, I just like playing for fun for the most part, and I don't really play ranked. I would love to see a woman get to the professional scene if she is so driven to do so. I actually met and played against Susan Polgar in a chess open exhibition back when I was in 4th grade (I lost of course lol), and she IS a truly inspiring woman, so I'm really happy you mentioned her (I also have her autograph). A lot of your points are dead on and I love the mention of how all girl tournaments somewhat encourage female segregation (especially the part about the budgets). Great vid as always Thorin. It's really interesting to get your imput on stuff like this.
@@sketchz1698 The majority of women who get into e sports are doing it because now there is a lot of money in it and they're looking for a wealthy team owner for a husband or a way to make a quick buck off of desperate men on twitch. Getting a man to provide them with things is pretty much why women do anything. It's why they go to college to find a husband who looks like he'll obtain a well paying job. It's just a survival instinct; it's not a good thing or a bad thing. Men have the dominance instinct it makes us want to compete and try our hardest at something. The dominance instinct expresses it's self in many in different forms like wanting to fight, go to war or in less extreme ways like wanting to beat someone at a video game. Women don't need to be successful at anything to attract a mate just don't be ugly, but men do it's why men have the dominance instinct. If a man fails he goes homeless while a woman can just get a boyfriend. People say that women don't care about money, but how many homeless men or neck beards living with their parents you see getting their dicks sucked.
@@sketchz1698 And that's why most women don't care about competing in esports because they're just not competitive in general. It's just in their nature .
@@sketchz1698 @kablooyy I hope you guys have had your pain relieved in the time since you posted these comments. I wish you get the support you need and good luck in your future.
Comments made years ago still hold true today. Makes you think, this isn't a new issue, or something that we'll see change, but quite possibly, just genetics.
Look at Melee (Super Smash Bros) if you have money to get in you can play, there are so few females in the top level (none,) which kind of sucks, i just want more people in gaming.
Most people watching the video are pretty rational and levelheaded. The other side is currently Literally Shaking right now while all coordinating on how to ruin this man, his career, and his life.
so, this pay gap in epsorts that the article talked about is basically comparing someone like shox and simple with missharvy or Julian, like come one its like comparing a normal employe with a top level manager, the skill gap is fucking huge and if they don't have the same skills, of course they ain't gonna earn the same are they now
Dr ShruB exactly, same reason why Ronaldo earns 350k a week (just his basic salary) and the worlds highest paid female footballer, Alex Morgan, earns about twice that in a whole year. People want to watch the best, and in any walk of life I can think of with a reasonably objective standard, the best men are better than the best women
I'm glad someone large enough in the CS community, such as yourself, is not afraid to give fair arguments against the PC thought police. They have already infected enough, and it seems to me the only way to stop them is to be vigilant every time they try and make a move. Keep up the good work. Looking forward to your next video.
He sums up the animal agriculture pretty well. People do this, or pay others, to do far more morbid stuff all day everyday without any logical or rational reason. On topic, good episode and well addressed.
TheSporkassassin yeah but i think that he means its more rare for a woman to be on the same level of dedication or obsession with something to get on a competitive level
MadmanGoneMad2012 I don't agree at all. I'm a classical music student and the girls there are usually more competitive, more driven than men. Many of them just practise a shitton of hours a day.
BottomFragger, ofcourse it's not the case everytime. You can't standardize human beings. However, there has been done research into what men and women dedicate their attention towards, even on toddler level. And that reasearch indicates that men are alot more interested in material goods, than women. This supports the idea that men are more competetive, dedicated, and potentially more ambitious than women, because they have a higher desire to achieve and receive material goods/wealth. But ofcourse, passion is not gender spesific. Women can also obsess about things, but as the comment says, "Men seem to obsess over things MORE".
What i got from this video: -Female tournaments are not a problem are a new way to companies to make money. -The females are being given more opourtunities than men, and are being made to play the games.Just because they are women. (the bird example)They are forcing the equality not by improving women but by making them by force play with the mens and making the mens play with the womens.( I didnt quite understand this part very well) -There might be a actuall genre distintion distincion betwen the way men and women aproach the games. -Females should stop crying about being putted apart...and start to put more time into practicing the game. (sorry about my english)
Great and hard topic to talk about. I like your views and I share many of them. I would like to add that we cannot ignore the fact that for many years, the target audience of the gaming industry has been focused just on male audiences (just look at most tv commercials of the last 30+ years). Not to mention that the creative process behind videogames has always been strongly influenced by male interests. What I mean by this is that our interests relate to the culture of our time and girls playing videogames at an early age wasn't very common, specially competitive games. We cannot disregard that genetics might play an important role in this matter but we know for a fact that culture and parental education do shape our interests: many parents don't like their daughters playing CoD or CS at 12 but I know for a fact that most parents don't give a damn if their sons play those same games at the same age (although it may or may not be appropriate for neither).
I love you @Thooorin for having the guts to counter the "female discrimination" in cs with MtF examples. It's something I myself have had in my mind all along and argued with against many female cs players. In my opinion it also indicates that there isn't as much a gap between the genders' hormone levels, like men being more aggressive so they play better. MtF people (myself included) undergo hormone treatments. Some even have less testosterone due to this treatment than biological women. However, they still have the drive and passion for e-sports. Scarlett is the biggest example anyone can think of. So I myself have come to a conclusion that it must be a societal difference that separates the genders rather than a physical one. There isn't a known organ that makes men play better than women. All examples "seem" to lead to hormones, yet, like I mentioned above, MtF individuals seem to go against any of these examples. An issue I've faced as one such individual (inspired by Scarlett, and MtF myself), is that as soon as you solo queue in faceit and try to reach FPL (like my goal is) as soon as the men hear your feminine voice two outcomes proceed: Either the men try to circle jerk and proceed to play worse than they should because of it, or on occasions they make fun of you for being a woman and demoralize you in-game worse than the enemy team. This has been my biggest challenge in reaching FPL. It's my biggest dream to reach that height. I don't even mind not being on a pro contract. I just want to be in FPL, to be recognized like Scarlett for being a woman in a male dominant world. In another note, I've been falsely lead to believe by other female players that the majority of tournament organizations like ESL don't allow mixed sex teams. Which put me down even more from achieving e-sport pro status. I'm extremely glad to hear that this isn't the case from a well respected individual like you. In a game like counter strike teamwork is key. However if you don't have a team that accepts you and wants to play with you, it's extremely difficult to achieve anything. On the other side, in a game like Starcraft, it is a primarily 1v1 game. Where anyone with Raw talent can push the boundaries and beat the Koreans and win big titles. So I think another major issue regarding this is that many women believe that there isn't much chance at making it big into the CS majors so they aim for lesser "female" only tournaments similar to other sports in the world like sprinting, volley ball, etc. This is just my two cents. If you disagree with it, leave it, if anyone would like to further discuss, you know what to do.
What on earth gives you the impression that the only biological difference between men and women is hormonal? They're different in every conceivable way, from the chromosomes making up each of their 37 trillion cells, to the way in which their brains function and are wired (look it up, there have been long-term studies demonstrating this), to their skeleton and the composition of the bones which make up their skeleton, to their physical form. Testosterone is one tiny aspect of a near endless list of immutable biological differences, and I have nothing but the deepest sympathy for anyone who has been misled by politically motivated sociological pseudoscience into believing that taking a pill is going to transform them into the opposite gender. You can't "socialise" better reaction times into someone. They're derived from innate, immutable biological and physiological differences between the two genders, and a study published by Aditya Jain et al demonstrates this.
This video is actually a good example about females in esports. Anyone who would be willing to argue about it should watch the video entirerly, since it does bring up a lot of good points, and is not biased towards males or females.
the best analog for study, since not a lot of this type of research is going on with esports, would be chess. i expect the below would likely be a big factor with competitive cs go and other esports as well, considering how few women actually play dota/sc2/lol/or csgo compared to men. "A team of researchers from the UK has shown that the under-representation of women at the top end in chess is almost exactly what would be expected, given the much greater number of men that participate in the game at all.About 96% of the actual difference between genders could be explained by the statistical fact that the extreme values from a large sample are likely to be larger than those from a small one." basically, with a MUCH bigger sample size, more people land a bunch of standard deviations out in the positive direction. (only about 2% of chess players are women.) If there were a contest for the WORST chess players, you would also see men winning there, if you could somehow win at being bad. Another interesting issue under study is called stereotype threat: "In a 2013 study, the US psychologists Hank Rothgerber and Katie Wolsiefer found that girls as young as six are aware of the stereotype that ‘good chess players are usually boys’." "In a 2008 study, researchers at the University of Padua in Italy matched 42 expert female chess players with similarly ranked male opponents online. When the women weren’t told the gender of their opponent, or were told (incorrectly) that they were playing against another woman, they performed as expected. When they were told their opponent was male, they played dramatically worse, whether the opponent was actually male or not." as to the question of why less women play these games, or chess for that matter, it's more likely sociological. with respect to chess, women were much more prominent prior to the 1700s. feel free to google on your own to learn more on that it's kind've a tangent to the topic at hand. one interesthing thing- chess also has a women's world championship, and it's just as controversial as the women's only tournaments in esports. the best women at chess have actually said they dislike the women's only tournaments and will not compete in them, opting instead to play in the primary championship only. ultimately, i think the women's only tournaments do provide a way to buck the stereotype that only men are gamers, but if we ever expect to see women in tier 1 teams, they're going to have to compete and practice against the best to get there. Study: phys.org/news/2009-01-men-higher-women-chess-biological.html#jCp
if you have time, could you please cite your sources with these videos? It would be nice to follow up some of the quotes you mention as they are usually interesting
Really good points in this video. I think that gaming tends to be quite an unfriendly place to women a lot of the time (like a lot of nerd culture), but eSports has always been different, in my experience. The points you made here are all reasons why I feel that eSports is a pretty well-balanced scene in general, and haven't had an issue with the lack of female representation in pro play. I'm sure there are many reasons (both biological and sociological/societal) that women do not tend to compete on the same level as men in eSports. I think men often tend to spend more time on their hobbies (I understand that at pro level, gaming is a job, but it starts as a hobby). I struggle to think of women in my life who spend 6+ hours on their hobbies each day. I also think that we tend to not be as competitive as men - I'm not sure why that is, but it does seem to be the case, and of course that effects ability/desire to practice long hours and improve. I think as a group, we want more women in eSports, but individually, none of us really want to be those women. Much as I love gaming, I would never want to be pro, and I'm sure that's the same as many many other women. I would love to look into this further, because I think the reasons would be really fascinating and could help a lot with understanding between genders. Really interesting video, thank you.
A book called Delusions of Gender expands on a lot of your thoughts here about how society might create problems that prima facie might seem genetic. I really recommend it @Thoorin
@Thooorin I forget the exact study, but there is some research to back up these claims in behavioral ecology where between men of the same species, they would fight and kill each other to become the head of the pack;whereas, women choose to not fight and instead wait in secession to hierarchy. The study done corroborates your claims to an extent, but there are always outliers :)
I wouldn't mind a female league akin to female sports but two problems: 1. staffing enough teams with talented players and funding for this and 2. not turning it into a marketing 'sex-driven' tool while having decent revenue and viewership. You're not going to get either thing to happen without the skimpy clothing and tactics. :/ As to the genetic aspect of it and males being programmed to be aggressive and females more passive/emotional, I agree scientifically but it would be nice if both aspects are valued equally in society but they aren't at all. I think that's why so many women take on 'male-traits' like being aggressive and competitive in order to succeed in life and ascend their female counterparts that do not do this. Regardless of whichever trait you decide, you are seen as week or 'butch' and BOTH are not desirable. This links into your point of the young chess player stating that her fellow girl chess players are wasting time on cooking and 'female-assigned' skills which is a social assignment and pressure to conform to the 'norm.' I've played WoW and League and you get everything under the sun - and honestly - you are better off never telling or giving yourself away. For example, I'm doing well in a SR ranked and supporting the team correctly/good calls - but most of the time, I won't ever receive any kind of recognition of this (like most players - ppl are assholes) - they assume because it is your SOCIAL ROLE to protect and support them. HOWEVER, if I'm doing poorly and they KNOW I'm a woman, their insult pool triples: make me a sandwich, fuck you bitch, girls can't game, shouldn't you be in the kitchen, I'm going to r*pe you and more that are much worse. An experience from WoW was I used to arena in BC (what a great xpac) and I needed points one wk because my team was offline. I saw an LF for 3's and joined up and hopped on their vent. Mind you - they already inspected my gear, lvl, and teams ranking (3k) and agreed to this. As soon as I said 'Hello' I was kicked from vent and group immediately and their response is something that sticks with you when you realized you aren't wanted; not because you aren't good, but because you female... "Sorry we don't play with girls, we don't want to lose. We are serious about arena - sorry." After that I was put on ignore. I've also had GM's in the recruit process ask me for pics (nudes and non-nudes), measurements and if I'm single or not. Now not everyone is like this - it's only about 1/4 of the gamers I've run into that run it for us girls (kinda like TSM fans :P). Anyway, thank you for the content - always a pleasure to watch. Missing your SI and 'grog'. :)
As a molecular biology and genetics major, i think you are absoletely on point in terms of how studies should be approached. Phycological differences are clearly leading to a discrepency in performance levels between males and females in gaming. This discrepency can be caused by a number of factors such as genetics as you mentioned, but i will admit many of these factors are not well described and there is much about the brain we still do not know. The key point is that investigation of these factors must fundamentally be undertaken through a scientific approach, a 'gender studies' battle of *ideas* offers only opinions not based on anything empirical. To truely understand the nature of these differences we must use real data and *evidence*.
Undoubtedly there would be a environmental component as with all developmental and behavioural characteristics, there are contributions from both genetic and environmental factors. The Ukrainian chess woman is an interesting case but it's really only conjuncture trying to talk about the cause, which brings us back to the empirical approach. There are real statistical analysis which can be conducted on robust experiments for these problems. This is my point, everything from Steph harvey's "boy's club" view of the industry, to the wider opinion that 'gender ratios in all disciplines should be 50:50', is clouded by bias. To truly investigate this issue in an objective manner you must use a scientific approach.
I'm doing my psychology dissertation on women in esports. There's so much grey area to explore. Very interesting but overwhelming with how little research has been done.
Man, if you didnt script this one you're an absolute god. I know you've got the gift of the gab, but to articulate such a nuance topic with such clarity is truly incredible. Even if it was scripted, you deserve so much, in 30 years, you're going to be a true legend of esports. Remembered by all, not just the diehards.
Thank you for including in your statements : " If this is the case", "would seem to be" and "we need more tests". It shows you don't just assert what you think is true.
I think it was worth bringing up that Judit Polgar and her sister we're actually part of an educational experiment. I'm basing this off wikipedia through. Their parents set out to prove that "Geniuses are made, not born". Anyway, they we're schooled at home, one of the main subjects was chess. This kinda proves that women have the mental capacity to compete with men if the logical side of the brain is nourished. The social aspect is the most interesting in my opinion when it comes to women competing with men or whether they like videogames or not, etc.
My opinion on this is pretty much Nigel Short's. There are clear differences between genders that extend to physical, mental and intellectual characteristics, and these differences should not be ignored or dismissed, but rather embraced and understood. Men have clear advantages over women, just as women have clear advantages over men. It's not wrong to recognize them, just like Nigel recognizes his wife's superior emotional intelligence, and she in turn recognizes that Nigel is better suited for tasks like getting the car in a narrow gap. Differences allow everyone to have a role in society and feel at home and at peace with the one that they follow, and it makes us all little pieces of a puzzle that all fit together nicely.
If your issue is not being able to play on the main stage like the "male" teams, then join the main tournament; no one is stopping you. If you have a problem with the female tournament prize pot being lower than the main tournament, then join the main tournament; (again) no one is stopping you. There is the growing misconception that CS is divided by gender. Tournaments are not divided by male and female, and they have never been. In fact, females are given the privilege to choose which of the two tournaments they would rather participate in (double-standard? I think so). Guess which option of the two is traditionally favored... The documentary claims they want equality, claims they want to compete with everyone else just like everyone else, yet these female players choose to separate themselves from the scene by playing on female teams in female tournaments over open tournaments/leagues. For what reasons? One excuse is that female players and teams need a sanctuary that keeps them away from harassment and sexist behavior, yet internet prejudices have no boundaries regarding race, sex, skill, or sexual orientation. Others claim that hosting these female tournaments are to increase the female demographic of the game. Whether the game is 90% male or 10% female, or 50% male and 50% female, balanced demographics does not necessarily mean equality or lead to equal treatment because you are trying to increase the # of females for its sake rather than solving the real issues at hand. Stats are just a number, the people themselves (male & especially female) are the problem here. Since 2003, ESWC has been hosting female tournaments, and in those 11 years, nothing has changed. Viewers still see several of the same faces STILL competing in these tournaments year after year, and the vast majority of female players begin and end their career in these tournaments. When will it ever lead to integration? Female tournaments are not the answer, and it is the female players attitudes that must change. They are the ones that decide whether they want to play in the same leagues and tournaments as everyone else, and they are the ones that decide how much effort they truly want to invest in the game; (again) no one is stopping them. Why is the legitimacy of female esports always being questioned? It's because female tournaments employ gender, rather than skill, as a prerequisite for participation. When you bar entry to males in a male-dominated competitive scene, the legitimacy of competition within the female scene has a right to be questioned (just as an amateur league would, or even a local tournament simply because they do not feature the top-ranked competitors). Until players within the female scene prove otherwise, their skill (just like any player in the scene who is new or has yet to prove themselves) will always be questioned. There also seems to be a growing trend that closely resembles affirmative action, and it involves inviting female teams to play in tournaments of high stature (such as Hitbox Arena Championship and Fragbite Masters), rather than letting them qualify on their own accord. Do not buy into whatever “altruistic” reasons the tournament organizers use to justify this action (e.g. to integrate the “male” and female scene)-it’s all a marketing ploy. Why should it take an invite to get a female team competing against other non-female teams in leagues and tournaments? It shouldn't. The female players themselves are responsible for what tournaments/leagues they choose to sign up or qualify for, and if they deserve a spot or a title, they will earn it just like any other team would and has done in the past. This only serves as a slap in the face to other teams who have put in the effort and would have qualified over the invited female teams, but weren’t simply because they were male. I'll end with this, If you are a female player that is looking for a pat on the back for your efforts (despite not being able to compete among the best), then female tournaments are for you. If your only goal is to have fun and play with other girls, then by all means have fun. However, do not expect any real respect in the competitive scene because you are segregating yourself from the main competitive community. If you are a female player that takes criticism and failure appropriately, will continue to be motivated to play in open leagues/tournaments to gain the necessary experiences (despite not winning, or receiving prize money initially because your rather not take the easy route and exploit your gender), and genuinely wants to be the best among the best at all costs, then carry on in your efforts, because that attitude will make you a better player than any female
Thorin, I thoroughly enjoyed this video because I believe that with your large following comes the luxury (but also the responsibility) for you make a comprehensive and analytic video. I especially enjoy carefully constructed arguments and the acknowledgement of the absence of research done in eSports on the topic at hand. Furthermore, as often as the argument is dismissed and held as sexist by SJW's, it is dismissed by circle jerk redditors who feel attacked and don't know any other way of engaging in discussion than hurling insults. I agree with you concerning most of the points you raised, except for one, which is the genetics argument. And I will admit I am no biologist but I just discussed this topic with my roommate who is a PhD in micro biology (also not necessarily the relevant field but a lot more knowledgeable than the average redditor or my self) We discussed that although no one can deny that there considerable physical difference between male and female sex, no study has successfully proven that women are less competitive than men (and I don't count pseudo scientific studies that start of with biased and weighted research questions and use already male dominated sports as examples). However, there are studies done on chimps and the bonobo by well respected scientists (such as Frans de Waal, look at his work on altruism in the bonobo) which indicate a strong drive within the female to protect her off spring from dangerous males. This motivator to protect and ensure the survival of, not only their young, but also themselves has indicated physical strength such as endurance which are often used an area to dismiss female capabilities in sports, and used as a reason why women might be less competitive. While the exact opposite is true because the potential is most certainly there, also genetically. In your video you mention how you think it might be unlikely (although you state you cant be sure) for girls to be molded by society at such a young age, however, you would be surprised how quickly kids pick up habits and notice pressure to like or be a certain way (it starts with colours of balloons, choice in sports often made by parents). For example, being a fierce competitor would be seen as unlady like. However I realise you argument and video is much more comprehensive and I agree with most of what you said, it is just this one point I think is too commonly brought up by the circle jerk redditor who will simply claim "women are less competitive and therefore deserve is less". Al though I don't have the luxury the write a well worded, sourced, argued reply I think this definitely an aspect that requires more research. Thank you for your video.
Thorin is such a fucking beast. Scary smart. Like for real, so fucking smart it blows my mind. The way how he puts things in perspective and just the way how he handles subjects is absolutely genius.
A bit spicy in the last part but overall yes, those are some of the main points to consider when discussing women in Esports and in particular competitive CS:GO. And yes, these are some of the reasons that clarify the point of views on the topic. Thanks Duncan!
The problem is that in 100 games of csgo I probably get 1-3 females on my team and they are usually very bad and other people on the team can be very toxic. So it's very rough being a female in csgo
There is obviously a lot more skilled male CS pros when compared to female but if a girl was just as good or even better than a male csgo player I think they should be allowed into a team. This isn't like any traditional sports where woman usually have a physical disadvantage.
toxicity doesnt even exsist ...if ur abd and someone points that out is jsut normal to do if ur competetive and ur ruining their game and wasting their time
More like it is rough to be bad in any competitive game. It is pretty understandable if someone gets angry, if he is pulled down by bad teammates. It is just waste of time...
I always remember and give respect to A-Laget Queen who used to play in a semi-pro Swedish team back in the day against top teams such as SK.sca etc... Didnt ask for handouts playing in female only league's, she got fairly high up on her own steam.
i don't think we have concrete evidence of it as there hasn't been,to my knowledge, any research from a reputable source on genetic differences between men and women when it comes to esports, shame too
I agree with the hormone argument, but you can't disagree that online multiplayer games are often rife with sexism and bigotry. I am a firm believer in overcoming roadblocks in gaming and persisting against barriers to entry, but I think we can all agree that the love of the game and the skill involved is more important than whether or not you have a penis.
there's more black people in competitive fighting games than fps, especially smash. sonicfox, one of the more skilled players in mortal kombat and skullgirls atm, is black.
fireball there may be more bountiful amount of blacks in just fgc but unfortunately that does not account for all games in esports and considering the prize and salary as well as sponsorships he is correct in his statement. only well known and fully reputable sponsored players are few and in between. fgc organizations have sketch sponsorships or poor business models for teams..
As far as I know, black people for some reason aren't used to pc gaming so consoles are what they had all their lives. That's my theory as my parents didn't even know you could use pc's for games until 2 years ago
hippø She was trans, but I forgot about that when I typed it, also, not exactly me, but there are a lot of people that would call Remilia only a female.
It is human to defy nature. Ultimately with the goal of transhumanism in mind, we should constantly be attempting to redefine what is possible beyond the limits of even our own biology.
I agree with Thorin when he was talking about the need for studies and how they should be done. I think Anthropology with its holistic approach would be a great field to do this since they would incorporate both social/cultural and biological factors into it.
The comparison to chess is interesting. I'm an expert level player myself and I started when I was young. A lot of the girls who went to tournaments early on dropped out around high school which is why the gap is so massive in adult tournaments. Those that stick around tend to be very good. Chess players generally hit their peak from 20-40 years old. This is also the time where many players choose to have children and a lot of women choose to leave the professional circuit to spend more time with their children (not judging or complaining, it just tends to happen). In general it seems sociological factors take women away as they tend to be hitting the peak of their careers. Only a select few (Hou Yifan, Judit Polgar, etc.) tend to break into the elite tournaments and even Judit left the professional scene to spend time with family.
Judit Polgar(along with her sisters and fellow chess players Susan and Sofia) was featured in a National Geographic documentary(yeah yeah, take it with a grain of salt as always with NG) about human minds, its a very interesting watch
It's a really confusing, complicated and (though it shouldn't be) socially land-mined topic, and it would be really interesting to read an actual scientific study done on the matter. Is it genetic? Do the low levels of testosterone in women make them less willing to compete and be the best? If that's true then why are there so many women out there willing to work their asses off for their entire lives to be the best in Olympic sports, pushing their bodies to the absolute limit? Also, how is it then that trans-women, who basically take pills to drastically reduce, if not eliminate testosterone production in the body are capable of remaining at a top level? Does society (maliciously or not) divert women away from competitive gaming and on towards other pursuits? To me this looks like the most obvious culprit, with less women in the overall pool of players, and of those perhaps not the most competitive who could be playing. It's something which really should be studied, from both social and biological aspects.
i would say testosterone is one aspect, but traditionally there has also been a huge sociological component. for centuries, women were told/expected to stay away from the male sphere, which included competition to a large degree. the chess playerbase was much more mixed in the past when it was seen less as a competitive game and more of a social passtime. this only shifted in the 1700s.
People overthink this. Its always the marketing. Everything we do, we do because of marketing, if you know and like it or not. All e-sport games are heavily marketed to male players. End of story. Thats it. Really.
So I waited till the end of the video to get all the points. You are almost 100% right, just wanted to add that from what I can see, men have more free time to play. For example, in my case I have a full time job from 9 - 18.30, sometimes I work on saturday too. I arrive home and need to help my mother in the charges. I arrive PC arround 20 and I rush myself to play - with team or ESEA depending on the days. To get better we all have to put time into game, I think that's the only point you kinda didn't talk about cuz from what I see from my friends: the girls always have stuff to do at home and the guys have more time cuz they don't see it as an obligation - ofc that's family related too. So, If a men is receiving a salary before he moves out of home and has a family and he is already considered a pro, he will surely continue to be, cuz he can live from it. I'm not forgeting the girls should be able to do it too and as I said the video is correct. Anyways, I'm not complaining and at some point I'm just saying that I actually like competing and prefer to play against guys since girls are a lot about drama. Other thing I noticed, I played in an eswc offline qualifier and, one of the organizers, came to me and my mix gender team (3 girls, 2 boys) and said to us "hope you do bad since if you win this you can't go to the official tournament", as you said in your video we are suppose to be able to compete in this type of competitions, dunno if the guy didn't know that or if the rules changed but it's not a very good thing to say xD P.S: the only discrimination I see sometimes is people that refuse to play against female teams, cuz... I still didn't understand why ; plus the mentally damaged people talking about kitchen
I think there's some people who have this weird notion that the world is supposed to be "fair" on some level. That it's unfair that women don't have the same biological potential for sports etc. as men do. Like, if we look at the 100 metres dash for example, the best woman in history, Florence Griffith-Joyner, wouldn't make it into the top 6000 best times compared to male runners. The same trend can be seen across the spectrum of sports. This makes it obvious that there needs to be separate competitions for men and women. In fact, there SHOULD be segregated leagues in esports, nothing else makes sense. There have been done limited studies on reaction times, showing that men in general have faster reaction times, especially auditory reaction time, which can easily be explained by how men used to be the hunters, and needed to be able to quickly react to the sound of an animal. Some people might argue that since we don't live as part of nature in the same way anymore, this would have changed, but truth is, modern society has only existed for a tiny blip in the history of mankind. Give it another 10.000 years, and perhaps women will have developed as fast reaction times, or mens reaction times will have slowed (in fact more likely, as our lives no longer depends on hunting in the wild), but modern lifestyle has not been a factor for a long enough period of time to have had any major impact on evolution. The sooner people can accept that nature doesn't care about what is "fair" or about equality or anything like that, the sooner people can start embracing our differences and diversities rather than trying to force some kind of imagined stereotype of everybody being the same.
Yo Thorin. Great discussion of the issue. Would you mind putting the sources/articles for the studies you mentioned in the description? It'd definitively be intestering to look at.
I'm a tournament player for Soulcalibur and one of the most well known and skilled players, who has many 1st places finishes, is Kayane who's female. Also the assertion that more black people play fighting games and are really good at them also holds true for Soulcalibur at least.
Not anymore but i believe thorin was referencing the 2015 list which featured yifan hou in it. (not sure who the second female gm he was talking about would be though)
A nice thought provoking video. The key thing I always bring up is that we ensure that the range of choices are increased, as opposed to forcing females/males to do other things that they may not want to do. It would be nice to encourage women to get into esports, but if they themselves aren't willing to put in the hours to improve and compete then it'll be quite ineffective. I wonder how much of a limiting factor genetic differences are - I'd hypothesise that the gap between the potential of a given man or woman is smaller than the skill gap between Faker and PerkZ in LoL, for example.
I've paused at 26 minutes so I'm not sure if Thorin points this out later on. This idea that the gaming community is hostile to females has to be the most overused lie ever. I've been playing MP games for nearly 10 years now, ranging from CoD4 promod to CSGO to LoL and many others and if there's one thing I can say about when a lobby of players discover there is a female is that you will have a cringe overload. You can basically say with 100% rate that someone will kiss her ass "Oh lol I didn't expect you to be in that brush ahaha :P" what are you on about mate? the ward died like 6 seconds ago and we saw her walk in before it did what else did you expect to be in the brush? people turning there mics on in MW2 when they heard a girl talking, not to say anything just turned their mics on hoping she'd say something to them I guess. Here's a bit of a reality check for those people that do believe it's a hostile community towards women, those people that talk shit to them talk shit to everyone. Those people don't care if you are male or female they are just hostile players and will use anything they think will hurt you against you, stop thinking it's "because you are a women" no, it's because he is an asshole looking to pick fights.
no doubt. I've been playing games online with random strangers for 15 years and women are not discouraged to play. that's just such bullshit. I realize that's anecdotal, but I just have not seen it happen at all. I think if more girls actually wanted to get good at competitive games, they would! its not like we have a law that says women can't play video games! in fact, the law generally supports the exact opposite!
What? Every time I play, for the 10 years I've played online games, I get shit on just for speaking. That happens so much more to women. Why are you acting like some fucking expert and doing harm, instead of learning about this issue from people actually experiencing it? It's EXTREMELY hostile towards women specifically for BEING woman, vs men for being gay/young/etc. I get treated much better when I type instead of use my voice. This is discrimination plain and fucking SIMPLE. Racism is taboo, but sexism isn't? That's some bullshit. We're people too. We deserve as much respect for being as intelligent as you. My body doesn't make me a lesser person than you. Don't be bigoted. And yes, being purposefully sexist is bigoted.
Mudkipslaps the fgc is pretty good for this, though they are rare there have been a few that competed at high level and arent segregated in competitions
no their are SM4SH and MELEE female only tourneys, and I see many more males when I go to tourneys, but some e sports don't see any. Maybe the slow introduction through Nintendo games makes them even a thing in the sport.
Had a friend(girl) at school who was Diamond 4, she stopped there and just earned money boosting people to diamond. She had no aspirations for the game, she just saw it as a fun hobby to earn money from.
It's hard to have any facts about how genetics effect women when there's such a small number of them compared to men. I can't really blame testosterone as that doesn't come into play with any other sport. You all know how women are brought up. If you're a woman playing games as a teenager you're most likely gonna be considered weird. Same goes for chess... I've been to chess clubs on 3 different schools and NONE of them had a single girl. You could say they're not interested sure. But we all know people still look kinda down on people who are gamers, or into chess, even more so when it comes to women. I'm not really buying this whole ''genetics'' thing as every elite athlete has superior genetics to the average human being anyway. I'd appreciate it also if you looked a bit more into those studies about how men and women are different as they often interchange and a lot of them are just speculations based on the jobs men and women have which again could be affected by how we're brought up and it's a FACT that men and women aren't brought up equally, aren't told how to behave equally and from a very young age are brought up to like different hobbies. That being said the current female cs scene is absolutely dogshit. Female tournaments are also not helping as they only allow women to practice less and care less about the male competition.
Gapi P Obviously men that play games are considered role models ask any male gamer how many times they were mocked by their peers for liking games, I did and many others do.
Gapi P High School was a nightmare for me just because I prefered to play games and mtg rather than constantly chase girls and play sports. But obviously men have it easier this World is so cruel for women, when in fact the bullying I suffered was by other men and women.
Miguel Pato It's getting more and more acceptable but I agree it's weird for guys as well. It's super weird for girls. Now it could just be that the whole sex doesn't like games... it definitely could. Or it could be the upbringing. I'm not trying to act like I know why this is happening just trying to play devil's advocate. The reason i'm kinda not buying the whole genetics thing is that there's practically zero black gamers in csgo. I mean it has to be the upbringing there right? They HAVE the genetics.
Weldon already covered this topic with the reasons for a lack of pro female eSports Athletes. We can look at other studies done between men and women for other occupations and apply that to gaming though. For example we could look at the reaction time between men and women (trained men and women, not the pleb off the street) and use that. Much of what you said about the skills of men are just that, skills. Those skills of control and spacial awareness have all been trained growing up. At a neuroscience level it's just pathways that have been built up over time, all trainable stuff not genetic. The baseball example is biological, how the female bone and muscle structure is built. Reasons why women don't play as much or aren't as competitive is both social and genetic. On the social level we are raise specifically not to compete, to compromise and "Play nice". In addition to this by our teenage years it's not our accomplishments that matter to the mass public it's how we look and that eventually does get inside our heads (We've been hounded with it since birth through parents, people, and media). If we look at a case where this wasn't the case (Ronda Rousey) we can see the same fire for winning and competition that men have. On a genetic level we are getting at risk assessment (something that Weldon covered in one of his videos) and right at this moment going pro is just too much of a risk. However this isn't something that can't be overcome #B.F.Skinner The nature argument, it hurts >_< Even if we looked at the closes relatives of human it wouldn't be close to the same since we have a much, much more advanced brain. I'm so glad that you bring up the trans players. This is actually where the genetic argument falls to pieces and I will present the reasons. 1) Trans people even before they take the hormones have a similar brain structure to that of a natal woman. 2) They have a similar thought process as a natal women and even has almost the same amount of gray matter. 3) After some time on the hormones their brain structure changes even further. 4) with the removal of testosterone the aggression levels as well as the other perceived benefits. In conclusion this proves that it is in fact a social issue since they were not raised as a women and had not had it pounded into their head by the media. If women we kept off pro teams I wouldn't fault the team or organization, the last thing a team needs is for Queen Bee Syndrome to kick in.
Saying that all of those skills (special recognicion etc.) are not genetic and aren't effected by different brain wiring is ridiculously silly. Also your stance about the trans part still makes no sense, if they are born with brains more similar to women and then lose test on top of that after op they should not be performing better than females who are born female. That is what thoorin is saying and your points about them being born with still slightly different brains does not change that.
Necrosythe2 I'm not saying men don't have a small head start. And we don't even know why men do, for all we know it's their early childhood. However, long term testing on children isn't allowed anymore so we can't get the answers. Summing it all up and just saying, "Genetic" is the height of lazy science.
Your comment is a mess of appeals to ignorance backed by pure conjecture. Women are taught to play nice and therefore have poorer spatial awareness? Really? Citing genetic differences (which observably exist) isn't lazy science, it's reality. What's lazy is trying to obfuscate with completely unsubstantiated, woolly pop culture sociology based pseudo-scientific nonsense. Sad.
+Crispy with extra butter Your channel is full on unoriginal content, you have a stupid name, and an avatar to go with it. Why would I take anything you have to same seriously? More to the point you are building a straw man and trying to force me to defend someone that I never even hinted at. Get a life or come back with facts
miss harvey herself said women can't compete with men because they don't have the same drive as men.men will practice 8 hours a day while women will practice for half of that(if that).it's pathetic how when she was accepting her prize at oakland, she made those stupid comments about how being a women in esports is not so easy.
love your vids man. but id totally dig if you could provide the links to that citations you did in the future, so ppl could use them for further research :)
You couldve mentioned Queen who plays Vain Glory for the chinese Team Hunters. Vain Glory is 3v3 MOBA game on mobile very popular in Korea. It is even broadcasted in english on OGN by your friend MonteCristo. I believe she is even the shotcaller and leader of the team.
because pro teams dont want to carry the just because of their boobs? i mean when they are girls on this level, why shouldnt she play vs the pros? the problem is imho there are no girls who plays so good
I can't wait to see the thorin vs reddit video on this. The levels of irrationality that I can guarantee will come out of this will be mind blowing. I have noticed that as soon as you question someone's identity or how they identify themselves (I.e. Gender, sexual orientation, etc.) they immediately shut down all reasoning functions and it becomes a socially aggressive, and often threatening attack against you for even suggesting the possibility that they might be wrong. I'm eagerly awaiting your video regarding that. Love the work. Keep it up.
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
If a female CS:GO player with the skill of a Simple,Forest or some other great players existed,she'd get picked up immediately by any team because at the end of the day the only thing that matters is what happens in the server and the gender doesnt impact that
mindo61600 good summary, happened in Overwatch
L4xeus who?
***** You dont think if someone like Prime Forest or Liquid/Consistent Simple existed in female form right now someone like Faze,Liquid,Envy (All in Thorin's Top 10) would pick her up?Of course,language is barrier but say she spoke English/French just for this example,Envy needs a change and thats coming soon (French Shuffle),Liquid are nothing like they were and Faze could use some reinforcements (Although they could go far with the line up they have after that Oakland performance) imo they would chance it but I struggle to see where the MAJOR reservations would lie in picking up a girl when we have a female caster and females working in E-League and ESL (I think)
+vaccines www.reddit.com/r/Overwatch/comments/4ozx0o/1_zariya_player_hackusation_cleared_by_blizzard/
if you think that to sponsors and teams the only thing that matters is skill you are wrong, obviously it isn't, otherwise why would we have t5/6 female teams with salaries of male t1/2/3 teams
As a gold nova player I feel discriminated against by e-sports and I demand tournaments exclusively for shit players.
Join G2 instead of smithz might be an option for you my friend.
4 years later we got the Pogchamps tournament for chess, so thats something
BBC just got Thorin'd
Plex ASM thoorin has a bbc.
thorin would make shane diesel cry
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Thorin takes on BBC. [GONE WRONG] [PERHAPS ALSO SLIGHTLY SEXUAL (?)]
Thorin treatment
Somebody should force the person who wrote that BBC article to watch this.
Bilbo Swaggins he probably put less time into the article than thorin
Whoever thought it was a good idea to have somebody who doesn't know jackshit about eSports or video game culture write something about the aforementioned topics should be fired from his or her job.
Clockwork orange style. Why would women want to compete? Men only compete to get women to sleep with them in the first place. The men I know who gets the most pussy don't even play games because picking up women and fucking takes up to much of their time ;)
Arcinius Thx m8 r8 8/8 would play again.
Moldy Apple omg man i thought that comment then died when i read the end XD
i agree, esports are sexist.. pro females are as good as tier-6 males, skill wise. yet female pros make a ton more money
Hush..... don´t talk about that! You white male worker.
I agree 100%
I completely agree. I quit CSGO nearly 2 years ago and was highly skilled, one thing that frustrated me was watching players like MissHarvey. This isn't to say she isn't a good player but it's frustrating to watch someone thinking to yourself "I'm at least as skilled if not better but I wont have a career in eSports because I'm a male and the players I have to compete against would destroy me" it gets worse when you consider that even if I had started streaming I wouldn't have been very successful, I'm not overly charismatic (Apparently I'm funny when I'm mad) so why would anyone bother watching me? when you could watch an attractive women who is also very skilled at games... oh and I wouldn't have been the best player streaming either.
OM Forsyth You didn't get a career in esports not because you're a male, but because you obviously weren't motivated enough.
Or you ended up being without job , education and monetary perspective so you decided to focus on rather more important things than chasing the dream, even though I got 5th at Dreamhack 09 and won some small lans it wasnt enough to get picked up by the good teams, not only motivation but also luck plays a role.Therefore hearing about all this infuriated me , some MEN would do ANYTHING to get the things that female get without ever putting in the same effort as men have to and yet , we have this dialogue. Funnily enough I know 3 female gamers with huge potential but they decided to quit because all "good" female teams are formed because of the looks , not the performance.
Unicorndoo Strategies What a heap of shit. If you had any idea how hard I pumped eSports and specifically CSGO you wouldn't say I wasn't motivated enough. It's as simple as I wasn't good and too far behind on the experience curve, let's not also forget that 95% of the CSGO pro players were pro players for previous versions of CS. People can be motivated and not make it, don't believe what all these idiots will tell you about "oh never give up" if that was the case there would be a lot of players who were professional. Oh and I should probably point out I didn't have a career, albeit a small one and one I don't really count as being a "professional player" closer to a hobby with benefits.
43 minutes of triggering the social justice crusaders. Early Christmas gift, Thorin?
Thanksgiving
If you think this is about ''social justice crusaders" you've missed the point entirely.
Way too late for Thanksgiving.
Everybody knows this is not just a video bashing the sjw community but the point still stands that this will probably trigger them. js
I'm pretty sure OP never claimed or intended to claim that this is about/a response to SJWs.
What is "females"? Never played that game before
it's the new update for Minecraft, it's been all over the news, CBBC news.
+Lxke Minecraft gives you all the chicks!
...
:(
Females can read?
raymondfalodun Yeah I'm pretty gay right now
CatnamedMittens it's a part of the new update to minecraft
I personally couldn't agree more. Most girls don't like playing Esports, in general. It doesn't mean we don't exist, but we are few and far in between. I myself don't get too into winning League, I just like playing for fun for the most part, and I don't really play ranked. I would love to see a woman get to the professional scene if she is so driven to do so. I actually met and played against Susan Polgar in a chess open exhibition back when I was in 4th grade (I lost of course lol), and she IS a truly inspiring woman, so I'm really happy you mentioned her (I also have her autograph). A lot of your points are dead on and I love the mention of how all girl tournaments somewhat encourage female segregation (especially the part about the budgets). Great vid as always Thorin. It's really interesting to get your imput on stuff like this.
Susan polgar?
Isn't it Judit polgar or is that another chess player altogether ?
Why you lyin :) There is plenty of woman interested in Esports but they are just not good enough because of their Female brains :D
@@sketchz1698 The majority of women who get into e sports are doing it because now there is a lot of money in it and they're looking for a wealthy team owner for a husband or a way to make a quick buck off of desperate men on twitch. Getting a man to provide them with things is pretty much why women do anything. It's why they go to college to find a husband who looks like he'll obtain a well paying job. It's just a survival instinct; it's not a good thing or a bad thing. Men have the dominance instinct it makes us want to compete and try our hardest at something. The dominance instinct expresses it's self in many in different forms like wanting to fight, go to war or in less extreme ways like wanting to beat someone at a video game. Women don't need to be successful at anything to attract a mate just don't be ugly, but men do it's why men have the dominance instinct. If a man fails he goes homeless while a woman can just get a boyfriend. People say that women don't care about money, but how many homeless men or neck beards living with their parents you see getting their dicks sucked.
@@sketchz1698 And that's why most women don't care about competing in esports because they're just not competitive in general. It's just in their nature .
@@sketchz1698 @kablooyy I hope you guys have had your pain relieved in the time since you posted these comments. I wish you get the support you need and good luck in your future.
Just want to say I and I'm sure many others appreciate the thought you put into these and the research you do, your videos are fascinating, thank you!
Arcinius cc
yea its about discussing opinions and not trying to be right at a subject
Good points made by masq, a woman who was a decent CS:GO player: www.hltv.org/news/13657-equal-gaming-documentary-out#r6854639
Comments made years ago still hold true today. Makes you think, this isn't a new issue, or something that we'll see change, but quite possibly, just genetics.
Look at Melee (Super Smash Bros) if you have money to get in you can play, there are so few females in the top level (none,) which kind of sucks, i just want more people in gaming.
Thooorin big like for finding that comment from masq !
yes thoorin!your beard is back!
There is female esports scene and THE scene.
Most valid statement in the video.
I used to play music when playing dm. Now I listen to these videos. Thank you Thorin. I hope I get to meet you on lan someday and thank you personally
Just from the title can tell this is gonna be funny
I'm just waiting for some good comments.
After watching the video, are you dissapointed?
CperkaYT Yeah the comments section let me down. Not much retardation going on atm.
Most people watching the video are pretty rational and levelheaded. The other side is currently Literally Shaking right now while all coordinating on how to ruin this man, his career, and his life.
very
so, this pay gap in epsorts that the article talked about is basically comparing someone like shox and simple with missharvy or Julian, like come one its like comparing a normal employe with a top level manager, the skill gap is fucking huge and if they don't have the same skills, of course they ain't gonna earn the same are they now
Dr ShruB exactly, same reason why Ronaldo earns 350k a week (just his basic salary) and the worlds highest paid female footballer, Alex Morgan, earns about twice that in a whole year. People want to watch the best, and in any walk of life I can think of with a reasonably objective standard, the best men are better than the best women
Dr ShruB Disingenuous statistics from feminists? Nah...
if n0thing put a wig on he could be #1 female player
What about his beard
he can keep the beard
xLawnGnome give Pasha a wig
I'm glad someone large enough in the CS community, such as yourself, is not afraid to give fair arguments against the PC thought police. They have already infected enough, and it seems to me the only way to stop them is to be vigilant every time they try and make a move. Keep up the good work. Looking forward to your next video.
I was sure that it's a new video up until halfway point. So relevant in 2020, brilliant thought process.
Wonderful, nicely analyzed, more people need to see this
lel
Holy shit that bird example is the best thing way to describe this shit I've ever heard.
He sums up the animal agriculture pretty well. People do this, or pay others, to do far more morbid stuff all day everyday without any logical or rational reason. On topic, good episode and well addressed.
Men seem to obsess over things more, be it games, chess, poker etc where are the top female players here?
TheSporkassassin yeah but i think that he means its more rare for a woman to be on the same level of dedication or obsession with something to get on a competitive level
TheSporkassassin Same with Thorin's chess example, the exceptions don't mean anything
MadmanGoneMad2012 thats debatable
MadmanGoneMad2012 I don't agree at all. I'm a classical music student and the girls there are usually more competitive, more driven than men. Many of them just practise a shitton of hours a day.
BottomFragger, ofcourse it's not the case everytime. You can't standardize human beings. However, there has been done research into what men and women dedicate their attention towards, even on toddler level. And that reasearch indicates that men are alot more interested in material goods, than women. This supports the idea that men are more competetive, dedicated, and potentially more ambitious than women, because they have a higher desire to achieve and receive material goods/wealth.
But ofcourse, passion is not gender spesific. Women can also obsess about things, but as the comment says, "Men seem to obsess over things MORE".
liked the video even before watching it cuz i know thorin delivers truth and nothing but the truth
The transgender counterpoint is probably the best thing I've heard anyone say in this whole discussion.
I die laughing every time I see that 5X world champion shit in Missharveys bio. LUL
where does he talk about that?
I made a thread about that on HLTV not that long ago and got banned. I see now she has removed that from her bio ;)
Women are about as good as Australian gold novas
WoacklDoackl I believe there are female only world championships
thats offensive to aussue gold novas
Imagine if Thorin didn't speak so fast. This video would be like 2 hours
amazing that someone could watch this whole 41 minute video and the only rebuttal they come up with is "That's sexist"
What i got from this video:
-Female tournaments are not a problem are a new way to companies to make money.
-The females are being given more opourtunities than men, and are being made to play the games.Just because they are women. (the bird example)They are forcing the equality not by improving women but by making them by force play with the mens and making the mens play with the womens.( I didnt quite understand this part very well)
-There might be a actuall genre distintion distincion betwen the way men and women aproach the games.
-Females should stop crying about being putted apart...and start to put more time into practicing the game.
(sorry about my english)
Hey Thorin. Love your work mate. I hope you continue for years to come.
is there some gray I see on Thorin's beard?
Name:Duncan Shields
Birth:January 1, 1983 (age 33)
Could be, but it's normal.
Great and hard topic to talk about. I like your views and I share many of them.
I would like to add that we cannot ignore the fact that for many years, the target audience of the gaming industry has been focused just on male audiences (just look at most tv commercials of the last 30+ years). Not to mention that the creative process behind videogames has always been strongly influenced by male interests. What I mean by this is that our interests relate to the culture of our time and girls playing videogames at an early age wasn't very common, specially competitive games. We cannot disregard that genetics might play an important role in this matter but we know for a fact that culture and parental education do shape our interests: many parents don't like their daughters playing CoD or CS at 12 but I know for a fact that most parents don't give a damn if their sons play those same games at the same age (although it may or may not be appropriate for neither).
I love you @Thooorin for having the guts to counter the "female discrimination" in cs with MtF examples. It's something I myself have had in my mind all along and argued with against many female cs players.
In my opinion it also indicates that there isn't as much a gap between the genders' hormone levels, like men being more aggressive so they play better. MtF people (myself included) undergo hormone treatments. Some even have less testosterone due to this treatment than biological women. However, they still have the drive and passion for e-sports. Scarlett is the biggest example anyone can think of. So I myself have come to a conclusion that it must be a societal difference that separates the genders rather than a physical one. There isn't a known organ that makes men play better than women. All examples "seem" to lead to hormones, yet, like I mentioned above, MtF individuals seem to go against any of these examples.
An issue I've faced as one such individual (inspired by Scarlett, and MtF myself), is that as soon as you solo queue in faceit and try to reach FPL (like my goal is) as soon as the men hear your feminine voice two outcomes proceed: Either the men try to circle jerk and proceed to play worse than they should because of it, or on occasions they make fun of you for being a woman and demoralize you in-game worse than the enemy team.
This has been my biggest challenge in reaching FPL. It's my biggest dream to reach that height. I don't even mind not being on a pro contract. I just want to be in FPL, to be recognized like Scarlett for being a woman in a male dominant world.
In another note, I've been falsely lead to believe by other female players that the majority of tournament organizations like ESL don't allow mixed sex teams. Which put me down even more from achieving e-sport pro status. I'm extremely glad to hear that this isn't the case from a well respected individual like you.
In a game like counter strike teamwork is key. However if you don't have a team that accepts you and wants to play with you, it's extremely difficult to achieve anything. On the other side, in a game like Starcraft, it is a primarily 1v1 game. Where anyone with Raw talent can push the boundaries and beat the Koreans and win big titles. So I think another major issue regarding this is that many women believe that there isn't much chance at making it big into the CS majors so they aim for lesser "female" only tournaments similar to other sports in the world like sprinting, volley ball, etc.
This is just my two cents. If you disagree with it, leave it, if anyone would like to further discuss, you know what to do.
What on earth gives you the impression that the only biological difference between men and women is hormonal? They're different in every conceivable way, from the chromosomes making up each of their 37 trillion cells, to the way in which their brains function and are wired (look it up, there have been long-term studies demonstrating this), to their skeleton and the composition of the bones which make up their skeleton, to their physical form. Testosterone is one tiny aspect of a near endless list of immutable biological differences, and I have nothing but the deepest sympathy for anyone who has been misled by politically motivated sociological pseudoscience into believing that taking a pill is going to transform them into the opposite gender. You can't "socialise" better reaction times into someone. They're derived from innate, immutable biological and physiological differences between the two genders, and a study published by Aditya Jain et al demonstrates this.
This video is actually a good example about females in esports. Anyone who would be willing to argue about it should watch the video entirerly, since it does bring up a lot of good points, and is not biased towards males or females.
you know what ppl who are thinking that there is a discrimination against females in esports would say? they would say that Thorin is male
the best analog for study, since not a lot of this type of research is going on with esports, would be chess. i expect the below would likely be a big factor with competitive cs go and other esports as well, considering how few women actually play dota/sc2/lol/or csgo compared to men.
"A team of researchers from the UK has shown that the under-representation of women at the top end in chess is almost exactly what would be expected, given the much greater number of men that participate in the game at all.About 96% of the actual difference between genders could be explained by the statistical fact that the extreme values from a large sample are likely to be larger than those from a small one."
basically, with a MUCH bigger sample size, more people land a bunch of standard deviations out in the positive direction. (only about 2% of chess players are women.) If there were a contest for the WORST chess players, you would also see men winning there, if you could somehow win at being bad.
Another interesting issue under study is called stereotype threat:
"In a 2013 study, the US psychologists Hank Rothgerber and Katie Wolsiefer found that girls as young as six are aware of the stereotype that ‘good chess players are usually boys’."
"In a 2008 study, researchers at the University of Padua in Italy matched 42 expert female chess players with similarly ranked male opponents online. When the women weren’t told the gender of their opponent, or were told (incorrectly) that they were playing against another woman, they performed as expected. When they were told their opponent was male, they played dramatically worse, whether the opponent was actually male or not."
as to the question of why less women play these games, or chess for that matter, it's more likely sociological. with respect to chess, women were much more prominent prior to the 1700s. feel free to google on your own to learn more on that it's kind've a tangent to the topic at hand.
one interesthing thing- chess also has a women's world championship, and it's just as controversial as the women's only tournaments in esports. the best women at chess have actually said they dislike the women's only tournaments and will not compete in them, opting instead to play in the primary championship only. ultimately, i think the women's only tournaments do provide a way to buck the stereotype that only men are gamers, but if we ever expect to see women in tier 1 teams, they're going to have to compete and practice against the best to get there.
Study: phys.org/news/2009-01-men-higher-women-chess-biological.html#jCp
wow, i guess this is by far the best "thorin's thought" i have ever watched. You nailed it!
if you have time, could you please cite your sources with these videos? It would be nice to follow up some of the quotes you mention as they are usually interesting
Really good points in this video.
I think that gaming tends to be quite an unfriendly place to women a lot of the time (like a lot of nerd culture), but eSports has always been different, in my experience. The points you made here are all reasons why I feel that eSports is a pretty well-balanced scene in general, and haven't had an issue with the lack of female representation in pro play.
I'm sure there are many reasons (both biological and sociological/societal) that women do not tend to compete on the same level as men in eSports. I think men often tend to spend more time on their hobbies (I understand that at pro level, gaming is a job, but it starts as a hobby). I struggle to think of women in my life who spend 6+ hours on their hobbies each day. I also think that we tend to not be as competitive as men - I'm not sure why that is, but it does seem to be the case, and of course that effects ability/desire to practice long hours and improve. I think as a group, we want more women in eSports, but individually, none of us really want to be those women. Much as I love gaming, I would never want to be pro, and I'm sure that's the same as many many other women.
I would love to look into this further, because I think the reasons would be really fascinating and could help a lot with understanding between genders.
Really interesting video, thank you.
A book called Delusions of Gender expands on a lot of your thoughts here about how society might create problems that prima facie might seem genetic. I really recommend it @Thoorin
@Thooorin I forget the exact study, but there is some research to back up these claims in behavioral ecology where between men of the same species, they would fight and kill each other to become the head of the pack;whereas, women choose to not fight and instead wait in secession to hierarchy. The study done corroborates your claims to an extent, but there are always outliers :)
I wouldn't mind a female league akin to female sports but two problems: 1. staffing enough teams with talented players and funding for this and 2. not turning it into a marketing 'sex-driven' tool while having decent revenue and viewership. You're not going to get either thing to happen without the skimpy clothing and tactics. :/
As to the genetic aspect of it and males being programmed to be aggressive and females more passive/emotional, I agree scientifically but it would be nice if both aspects are valued equally in society but they aren't at all. I think that's why so many women take on 'male-traits' like being aggressive and competitive in order to succeed in life and ascend their female counterparts that do not do this. Regardless of whichever trait you decide, you are seen as week or 'butch' and BOTH are not desirable. This links into your point of the young chess player stating that her fellow girl chess players are wasting time on cooking and 'female-assigned' skills which is a social assignment and pressure to conform to the 'norm.'
I've played WoW and League and you get everything under the sun - and honestly - you are better off never telling or giving yourself away. For example, I'm doing well in a SR ranked and supporting the team correctly/good calls - but most of the time, I won't ever receive any kind of recognition of this (like most players - ppl are assholes) - they assume because it is your SOCIAL ROLE to protect and support them. HOWEVER, if I'm doing poorly and they KNOW I'm a woman, their insult pool triples: make me a sandwich, fuck you bitch, girls can't game, shouldn't you be in the kitchen, I'm going to r*pe you and more that are much worse.
An experience from WoW was I used to arena in BC (what a great xpac) and I needed points one wk because my team was offline. I saw an LF for 3's and joined up and hopped on their vent. Mind you - they already inspected my gear, lvl, and teams ranking (3k) and agreed to this. As soon as I said 'Hello' I was kicked from vent and group immediately and their response is something that sticks with you when you realized you aren't wanted; not because you aren't good, but because you female... "Sorry we don't play with girls, we don't want to lose. We are serious about arena - sorry." After that I was put on ignore. I've also had GM's in the recruit process ask me for pics (nudes and non-nudes), measurements and if I'm single or not. Now not everyone is like this - it's only about 1/4 of the gamers I've run into that run it for us girls (kinda like TSM fans :P).
Anyway, thank you for the content - always a pleasure to watch. Missing your SI and 'grog'. :)
As a molecular biology and genetics major, i think you are absoletely on point in terms of how studies should be approached. Phycological differences are clearly leading to a discrepency in performance levels between males and females in gaming. This discrepency can be caused by a number of factors such as genetics as you mentioned, but i will admit many of these factors are not well described and there is much about the brain we still do not know. The key point is that investigation of these factors must fundamentally be undertaken through a scientific approach, a 'gender studies' battle of *ideas* offers only opinions not based on anything empirical. To truely understand the nature of these differences we must use real data and *evidence*.
Undoubtedly there would be a environmental component as with all developmental and behavioural characteristics, there are contributions from both genetic and environmental factors. The Ukrainian chess woman is an interesting case but it's really only conjuncture trying to talk about the cause, which brings us back to the empirical approach. There are real statistical analysis which can be conducted on robust experiments for these problems. This is my point, everything from Steph harvey's "boy's club" view of the industry, to the wider opinion that 'gender ratios in all disciplines should be 50:50', is clouded by bias. To truly investigate this issue in an objective manner you must use a scientific approach.
I'm doing my psychology dissertation on women in esports. There's so much grey area to explore. Very interesting but overwhelming with how little research has been done.
Now that this comment is at least 3 years old, could you share some insight of what you've found or even a link to your dissertation?
BeryVice yeah i would love to read an article on this investigation
so uh....about that article...
Man, if you didnt script this one you're an absolute god. I know you've got the gift of the gab, but to articulate such a nuance topic with such clarity is truly incredible. Even if it was scripted, you deserve so much, in 30 years, you're going to be a true legend of esports. Remembered by all, not just the diehards.
Thank you for including in your statements : " If this is the case", "would seem to be" and "we need more tests". It shows you don't just assert what you think is true.
I think it was worth bringing up that Judit Polgar and her sister we're actually part of an educational experiment. I'm basing this off wikipedia through. Their parents set out to prove that "Geniuses are made, not born". Anyway, they we're schooled at home, one of the main subjects was chess. This kinda proves that women have the mental capacity to compete with men if the logical side of the brain is nourished.
The social aspect is the most interesting in my opinion when it comes to women competing with men or whether they like videogames or not, etc.
Wonder what Alphadraft commercial he would have come up with for this one..
Probably something about skrilla and gender pay gap pun. :^)
Bayer In The Woods That would have made me spend money there. Just because the triggering would have been too great.
Probs the wage gap between people who use Alphadraft and those who don't
My opinion on this is pretty much Nigel Short's.
There are clear differences between genders that extend to physical, mental and intellectual characteristics, and these differences should not be ignored or dismissed, but rather embraced and understood. Men have clear advantages over women, just as women have clear advantages over men. It's not wrong to recognize them, just like Nigel recognizes his wife's superior emotional intelligence, and she in turn recognizes that Nigel is better suited for tasks like getting the car in a narrow gap.
Differences allow everyone to have a role in society and feel at home and at peace with the one that they follow, and it makes us all little pieces of a puzzle that all fit together nicely.
If your issue is not being able to play on the main stage like the "male" teams, then join the main tournament; no one is stopping you.
If you have a problem with the female tournament prize pot being lower than the main tournament, then join the main tournament; (again) no one is stopping you.
There is the growing misconception that CS is divided by gender. Tournaments are not divided by male and female, and they have never been. In fact, females are given the privilege to choose which of the two tournaments they would rather participate in (double-standard? I think so). Guess which option of the two is traditionally favored...
The documentary claims they want equality, claims they want to compete with everyone else just like everyone else, yet these female players choose to separate themselves from the scene by playing on female teams in female tournaments over open tournaments/leagues.
For what reasons? One excuse is that female players and teams need a sanctuary that keeps them away from harassment and sexist behavior, yet internet prejudices have no boundaries regarding race, sex, skill, or sexual orientation.
Others claim that hosting these female tournaments are to increase the female demographic of the game. Whether the game is 90% male or 10% female, or 50% male and 50% female, balanced demographics does not necessarily mean equality or lead to equal treatment because you are trying to increase the # of females for its sake rather than solving the real issues at hand. Stats are just a number, the people themselves (male & especially female) are the problem here.
Since 2003, ESWC has been hosting female tournaments, and in those 11 years, nothing has changed. Viewers still see several of the same faces STILL competing in these tournaments year after year, and the vast majority of female players begin and end their career in these tournaments. When will it ever lead to integration? Female tournaments are not the answer, and it is the female players attitudes that must change. They are the ones that decide whether they want to play in the same leagues and tournaments as everyone else, and they are the ones that decide how much effort they truly want to invest in the game; (again) no one is stopping them.
Why is the legitimacy of female esports always being questioned? It's because female tournaments employ gender, rather than skill, as a prerequisite for participation. When you bar entry to males in a male-dominated competitive scene, the legitimacy of competition within the female scene has a right to be questioned (just as an amateur league would, or even a local tournament simply because they do not feature the top-ranked competitors). Until players within the female scene prove otherwise, their skill (just like any player in the scene who is new or has yet to prove themselves) will always be questioned.
There also seems to be a growing trend that closely resembles affirmative action, and it involves inviting female teams to play in tournaments of high stature (such as Hitbox Arena Championship and Fragbite Masters), rather than letting them qualify on their own accord. Do not buy into whatever “altruistic” reasons the tournament organizers use to justify this action (e.g. to integrate the “male” and female scene)-it’s all a marketing ploy. Why should it take an invite to get a female team competing against other non-female teams in leagues and tournaments? It shouldn't. The female players themselves are responsible for what tournaments/leagues they choose to sign up or qualify for, and if they deserve a spot or a title, they will earn it just like any other team would and has done in the past. This only serves as a slap in the face to other teams who have put in the effort and would have qualified over the invited female teams, but weren’t simply because they were male.
I'll end with this,
If you are a female player that is looking for a pat on the back for your efforts (despite not being able to compete among the best), then female tournaments are for you. If your only goal is to have fun and play with other girls, then by all means have fun. However, do not expect any real respect in the competitive scene because you are segregating yourself from the main competitive community.
If you are a female player that takes criticism and failure appropriately, will continue to be motivated to play in open leagues/tournaments to gain the necessary experiences (despite not winning, or receiving prize money initially because your rather not take the easy route and exploit your gender), and genuinely wants to be the best among the best at all costs, then carry on in your efforts, because that attitude will make you a better player than any female
You just copied the comment in the hltv forums by masqii
Thorin, I thoroughly enjoyed this video because I believe that with your large following comes the luxury (but also the responsibility) for you make a comprehensive and analytic video. I especially enjoy carefully constructed arguments and the acknowledgement of the absence of research done in eSports on the topic at hand. Furthermore, as often as the argument is dismissed and held as sexist by SJW's, it is dismissed by circle jerk redditors who feel attacked and don't know any other way of engaging in discussion than hurling insults.
I agree with you concerning most of the points you raised, except for one, which is the genetics argument. And I will admit I am no biologist but I just discussed this topic with my roommate who is a PhD in micro biology (also not necessarily the relevant field but a lot more knowledgeable than the average redditor or my self)
We discussed that although no one can deny that there considerable physical difference between male and female sex, no study has successfully proven that women are less competitive than men (and I don't count pseudo scientific studies that start of with biased and weighted research questions and use already male dominated sports as examples). However, there are studies done on chimps and the bonobo by well respected scientists (such as Frans de Waal, look at his work on altruism in the bonobo) which indicate a strong drive within the female to protect her off spring from dangerous males. This motivator to protect and ensure the survival of, not only their young, but also themselves has indicated physical strength such as endurance which are often used an area to dismiss female capabilities in sports, and used as a reason why women might be less competitive. While the exact opposite is true because the potential is most certainly there, also genetically. In your video you mention how you think it might be unlikely (although you state you cant be sure) for girls to be molded by society at such a young age, however, you would be surprised how quickly kids pick up habits and notice pressure to like or be a certain way (it starts with colours of balloons, choice in sports often made by parents). For example, being a fierce competitor would be seen as unlady like.
However I realise you argument and video is much more comprehensive and I agree with most of what you said, it is just this one point I think is too commonly brought up by the circle jerk redditor who will simply claim "women are less competitive and therefore deserve is less". Al though I don't have the luxury the write a well worded, sourced, argued reply I think this definitely an aspect that requires more research.
Thank you for your video.
It goes against everything I believe in to trust a ginger, but this guy really gets it!
This is an absolutely amazing video. Great points, great discussions, great research. Cheers Thorin!
"I'm a Siren"
Thorin is such a fucking beast. Scary smart. Like for real, so fucking smart it blows my mind. The way how he puts things in perspective and just the way how he handles subjects is absolutely genius.
Did thorin finally get a heated apartment?
A bit spicy in the last part but overall yes, those are some of the main points to consider when discussing women in Esports and in particular competitive CS:GO. And yes, these are some of the reasons that clarify the point of views on the topic. Thanks Duncan!
You had me all the way up to electrocuting the asses of birds.
Any chance you can cite the studies or articles you used? I would like to have a look.
The problem is that in 100 games of csgo I probably get 1-3 females on my team and they are usually very bad and other people on the team can be very toxic. So it's very rough being a female in csgo
There is obviously a lot more skilled male CS pros when compared to female but if a girl was just as good or even better than a male csgo player I think they should be allowed into a team. This isn't like any traditional sports where woman usually have a physical disadvantage.
people are toxic on line no matter what.
toxicity doesnt even exsist ...if ur abd and someone points that out is jsut normal to do if ur competetive and ur ruining their game and wasting their time
mindo61600 i agree with what ur saying but i feel it is easier to take insults as a man that it is a woman. i feel woman are just more emotional
More like it is rough to be bad in any competitive game. It is pretty understandable if someone gets angry, if he is pulled down by bad teammates. It is just waste of time...
I always remember and give respect to A-Laget Queen who used to play in a semi-pro Swedish team back in the day against top teams such as SK.sca etc... Didnt ask for handouts playing in female only league's, she got fairly high up on her own steam.
i told my sister about that studty that said that men have better hand eye corrdination and muscle controll and she freaked out and started hitting me
charlie white lotta women emotions always interfere with logic so it be a normal reaction from her I guess
there is a study that said women have better hand eye coordination and muscle control
i don't think we have concrete evidence of it as there hasn't been,to my knowledge, any research from a reputable source on genetic differences between men and women when it comes to esports, shame too
link please :)
Sveinn Verneri why you ask me link but you dont ask thoorin? :)
I agree with the hormone argument, but you can't disagree that online multiplayer games are often rife with sexism and bigotry. I am a firm believer in overcoming roadblocks in gaming and persisting against barriers to entry, but I think we can all agree that the love of the game and the skill involved is more important than whether or not you have a penis.
there's more black people in competitive fighting games than fps, especially smash. sonicfox, one of the more skilled players in mortal kombat and skullgirls atm, is black.
fireball there may be more bountiful amount of blacks in just fgc but unfortunately that does not account for all games in esports and considering the prize and salary as well as sponsorships he is correct in his statement. only well known and fully reputable sponsored players are few and in between. fgc organizations have sketch sponsorships or poor business models for teams..
Other than the legendary cs 1.6 player SpawN,unfortunately there hasn't been one.
As far as I know, black people for some reason aren't used to pc gaming so consoles are what they had all their lives. That's my theory as my parents didn't even know you could use pc's for games until 2 years ago
Very informative video, probably one of the best you've made yet.
Saw the title, instantly thought of Remilia, clicked.
Brendan Geormer im pretty sure remillia was trans, so technically still a 'man', just portrayed as a woman
hippø She was trans, but I forgot about that when I typed it, also, not exactly me, but there are a lot of people that would call Remilia only a female.
well she is female. It's just that she has the so called "skill" of a male. That was my point Brendan Geormer
Uh. Remillia is not a female. He is a dude. So no, he doesn't count.
It is human to defy nature. Ultimately with the goal of transhumanism in mind, we should constantly be attempting to redefine what is possible beyond the limits of even our own biology.
Women only get .77 esports to mens 1 esports. The esports gap is unacceptable.
triple pay for maternity leave
I agree with Thorin when he was talking about the need for studies and how they should be done. I think Anthropology with its holistic approach would be a great field to do this since they would incorporate both social/cultural and biological factors into it.
My 70 yr old nan plays cards on her computer holy shit should i sign her up for a team? i think CLG need help
It's so nice to hear an argument with facts. Doesn't happen much these days
Only 70% as dedicated as the male counterpart.
The comparison to chess is interesting. I'm an expert level player myself and I started when I was young. A lot of the girls who went to tournaments early on dropped out around high school which is why the gap is so massive in adult tournaments. Those that stick around tend to be very good. Chess players generally hit their peak from 20-40 years old. This is also the time where many players choose to have children and a lot of women choose to leave the professional circuit to spend more time with their children (not judging or complaining, it just tends to happen). In general it seems sociological factors take women away as they tend to be hitting the peak of their careers. Only a select few (Hou Yifan, Judit Polgar, etc.) tend to break into the elite tournaments and even Judit left the professional scene to spend time with family.
CLG RED IS BAD, SELFLESS LADIES IS GARBAGE, SECRET IS GARBAGE. POTTER,MASQ,ZAAZ,RAIN,JULIANNA & ASHES ARE THE ONLY ONES AT AN INVITE LEVEL PERIOD.
Thomas Carrington potter is garb lol
you do not understand the severity of your insult
Damn, pulling punches
She carries her garbage team tho. play.esea.net/index.php?s=stats&d=match&id=8140295
zaaz = fire
Judit Polgar(along with her sisters and fellow chess players Susan and Sofia) was featured in a National Geographic documentary(yeah yeah, take it with a grain of salt as always with NG) about human minds, its a very interesting watch
The only Female Gamer iam looking up to is Scarlett in Starcraft 2.
She was realy a Beast and could compete with the Top Players in SC2.
jea she may had a dick but she is a queen like kenny.... waith a sek fuuuuu XD
Ah come one Scarlett was a Dude ?
But still there was Tossgirl!!11
her creep spread was amazing!
she still wrecks top players.
Scarlett isnt a woman
Wow! this is a really good video/topic. well put Thorin, as always, love it
It's a really confusing, complicated and (though it shouldn't be) socially land-mined topic, and it would be really interesting to read an actual scientific study done on the matter. Is it genetic? Do the low levels of testosterone in women make them less willing to compete and be the best? If that's true then why are there so many women out there willing to work their asses off for their entire lives to be the best in Olympic sports, pushing their bodies to the absolute limit? Also, how is it then that trans-women, who basically take pills to drastically reduce, if not eliminate testosterone production in the body are capable of remaining at a top level?
Does society (maliciously or not) divert women away from competitive gaming and on towards other pursuits? To me this looks like the most obvious culprit, with less women in the overall pool of players, and of those perhaps not the most competitive who could be playing.
It's something which really should be studied, from both social and biological aspects.
i would say testosterone is one aspect, but traditionally there has also been a huge sociological component. for centuries, women were told/expected to stay away from the male sphere, which included competition to a large degree. the chess playerbase was much more mixed in the past when it was seen less as a competitive game and more of a social passtime. this only shifted in the 1700s.
People overthink this. Its always the marketing. Everything we do, we do because of marketing, if you know and like it or not. All e-sport games are heavily marketed to male players. End of story. Thats it. Really.
So I waited till the end of the video to get all the points.
You are almost 100% right, just wanted to add that from what I can see, men have more free time to play.
For example, in my case I have a full time job from 9 - 18.30, sometimes I work on saturday too. I arrive home and need to help my mother in the charges. I arrive PC arround 20 and I rush myself to play - with team or ESEA depending on the days.
To get better we all have to put time into game, I think that's the only point you kinda didn't talk about cuz from what I see from my friends: the girls always have stuff to do at home and the guys have more time cuz they don't see it as an obligation - ofc that's family related too. So, If a men is receiving a salary before he moves out of home and has a family and he is already considered a pro, he will surely continue to be, cuz he can live from it.
I'm not forgeting the girls should be able to do it too and as I said the video is correct.
Anyways, I'm not complaining and at some point I'm just saying that I actually like competing and prefer to play against guys since girls are a lot about drama.
Other thing I noticed, I played in an eswc offline qualifier and, one of the organizers, came to me and my mix gender team (3 girls, 2 boys) and said to us "hope you do bad since if you win this you can't go to the official tournament", as you said in your video we are suppose to be able to compete in this type of competitions, dunno if the guy didn't know that or if the rules changed but it's not a very good thing to say xD
P.S: the only discrimination I see sometimes is people that refuse to play against female teams, cuz... I still didn't understand why ; plus the mentally damaged people talking about kitchen
I think there's some people who have this weird notion that the world is supposed to be "fair" on some level. That it's unfair that women don't have the same biological potential for sports etc. as men do. Like, if we look at the 100 metres dash for example, the best woman in history, Florence Griffith-Joyner, wouldn't make it into the top 6000 best times compared to male runners. The same trend can be seen across the spectrum of sports. This makes it obvious that there needs to be separate competitions for men and women. In fact, there SHOULD be segregated leagues in esports, nothing else makes sense. There have been done limited studies on reaction times, showing that men in general have faster reaction times, especially auditory reaction time, which can easily be explained by how men used to be the hunters, and needed to be able to quickly react to the sound of an animal. Some people might argue that since we don't live as part of nature in the same way anymore, this would have changed, but truth is, modern society has only existed for a tiny blip in the history of mankind. Give it another 10.000 years, and perhaps women will have developed as fast reaction times, or mens reaction times will have slowed (in fact more likely, as our lives no longer depends on hunting in the wild), but modern lifestyle has not been a factor for a long enough period of time to have had any major impact on evolution.
The sooner people can accept that nature doesn't care about what is "fair" or about equality or anything like that, the sooner people can start embracing our differences and diversities rather than trying to force some kind of imagined stereotype of everybody being the same.
Correct.
the fact that you people dont strive for a fair world is the reason we will all end up killing eachother. go move to russia they will love you there.
Yo Thorin. Great discussion of the issue. Would you mind putting the sources/articles for the studies you mentioned in the description?
It'd definitively be intestering to look at.
so women need to get gud?
name surname essentially
more like women CAN'T get gud
Its not their fault to lack competitiveness
but they dont need to, the whole point is that they're free to do what they want
I'm a tournament player for Soulcalibur and one of the most well known and skilled players, who has many 1st places finishes, is Kayane who's female. Also the assertion that more black people play fighting games and are really good at them also holds true for Soulcalibur at least.
there's no female in the top100 for chess
ratings.fide.com/top.phtml?list=men
ratings.fide.com/top.phtml?list=women
yeah it's the current top 100.
Not anymore but i believe thorin was referencing the 2015 list which featured yifan hou in it. (not sure who the second female gm he was talking about would be though)
probably Susan Polgár?
A nice thought provoking video. The key thing I always bring up is that we ensure that the range of choices are increased, as opposed to forcing females/males to do other things that they may not want to do. It would be nice to encourage women to get into esports, but if they themselves aren't willing to put in the hours to improve and compete then it'll be quite ineffective. I wonder how much of a limiting factor genetic differences are - I'd hypothesise that the gap between the potential of a given man or woman is smaller than the skill gap between Faker and PerkZ in LoL, for example.
I've paused at 26 minutes so I'm not sure if Thorin points this out later on. This idea that the gaming community is hostile to females has to be the most overused lie ever. I've been playing MP games for nearly 10 years now, ranging from CoD4 promod to CSGO to LoL and many others and if there's one thing I can say about when a lobby of players discover there is a female is that you will have a cringe overload. You can basically say with 100% rate that someone will kiss her ass "Oh lol I didn't expect you to be in that brush ahaha :P" what are you on about mate? the ward died like 6 seconds ago and we saw her walk in before it did what else did you expect to be in the brush? people turning there mics on in MW2 when they heard a girl talking, not to say anything just turned their mics on hoping she'd say something to them I guess.
Here's a bit of a reality check for those people that do believe it's a hostile community towards women, those people that talk shit to them talk shit to everyone. Those people don't care if you are male or female they are just hostile players and will use anything they think will hurt you against you, stop thinking it's "because you are a women" no, it's because he is an asshole looking to pick fights.
no doubt. I've been playing games online with random strangers for 15 years and women are not discouraged to play. that's just such bullshit. I realize that's anecdotal, but I just have not seen it happen at all. I think if more girls actually wanted to get good at competitive games, they would! its not like we have a law that says women can't play video games! in fact, the law generally supports the exact opposite!
What? Every time I play, for the 10 years I've played online games, I get shit on just for speaking. That happens so much more to women. Why are you acting like some fucking expert and doing harm, instead of learning about this issue from people actually experiencing it? It's EXTREMELY hostile towards women specifically for BEING woman, vs men for being gay/young/etc. I get treated much better when I type instead of use my voice. This is discrimination plain and fucking SIMPLE. Racism is taboo, but sexism isn't? That's some bullshit. We're people too. We deserve as much respect for being as intelligent as you. My body doesn't make me a lesser person than you. Don't be bigoted. And yes, being purposefully sexist is bigoted.
That point at 25:00 about streaming would fall under societal yes?
Super Girl Kels in SM4SH is top level, but then again fighters are different from shooters
Mudkipslaps wtf 😂 Never Heard-of her. Did she ever got top 32 anywhere ?
she got 5th at Apex 2016 including a series win over Mew2King, and 13th at GOML, she is one of the best sonics for sure
Mudkipslaps the fgc is pretty good for this, though they are rare there have been a few that competed at high level and arent segregated in competitions
no their are SM4SH and MELEE female only tourneys, and I see many more males when I go to tourneys, but some e sports don't see any. Maybe the slow introduction through Nintendo games makes them even a thing in the sport.
Had a friend(girl) at school who was Diamond 4, she stopped there and just earned money boosting people to diamond. She had no aspirations for the game, she just saw it as a fun hobby to earn money from.
It's hard to have any facts about how genetics effect women when there's such a small number of them compared to men. I can't really blame testosterone as that doesn't come into play with any other sport. You all know how women are brought up. If you're a woman playing games as a teenager you're most likely gonna be considered weird. Same goes for chess... I've been to chess clubs on 3 different schools and NONE of them had a single girl. You could say they're not interested sure. But we all know people still look kinda down on people who are gamers, or into chess, even more so when it comes to women. I'm not really buying this whole ''genetics'' thing as every elite athlete has superior genetics to the average human being anyway.
I'd appreciate it also if you looked a bit more into those studies about how men and women are different as they often interchange and a lot of them are just speculations based on the jobs men and women have which again could be affected by how we're brought up and it's a FACT that men and women aren't brought up equally, aren't told how to behave equally and from a very young age are brought up to like different hobbies. That being said the current female cs scene is absolutely dogshit. Female tournaments are also not helping as they only allow women to practice less and care less about the male competition.
Gapi P Obviously men that play games are considered role models ask any male gamer how many times they were mocked by their peers for liking games, I did and many others do.
Gapi P High School was a nightmare for me just because I prefered to play games and mtg rather than constantly chase girls and play sports. But obviously men have it easier this World is so cruel for women, when in fact the bullying I suffered was by other men and women.
Miguel Pato Most parents don't like their children playing games...
Miguel Pato It's getting more and more acceptable but I agree it's weird for guys as well. It's super weird for girls. Now it could just be that the whole sex doesn't like games... it definitely could. Or it could be the upbringing. I'm not trying to act like I know why this is happening just trying to play devil's advocate. The reason i'm kinda not buying the whole genetics thing is that there's practically zero black gamers in csgo. I mean it has to be the upbringing there right? They HAVE the genetics.
Thorin destroying every single argument you could ever begin to think of
Weldon already covered this topic with the reasons for a lack of pro female eSports Athletes. We can look at other studies done between men and women for other occupations and apply that to gaming though. For example we could look at the reaction time between men and women (trained men and women, not the pleb off the street) and use that. Much of what you said about the skills of men are just that, skills. Those skills of control and spacial awareness have all been trained growing up. At a neuroscience level it's just pathways that have been built up over time, all trainable stuff not genetic. The baseball example is biological, how the female bone and muscle structure is built.
Reasons why women don't play as much or aren't as competitive is both social and genetic. On the social level we are raise specifically not to compete, to compromise and "Play nice". In addition to this by our teenage years it's not our accomplishments that matter to the mass public it's how we look and that eventually does get inside our heads (We've been hounded with it since birth through parents, people, and media). If we look at a case where this wasn't the case (Ronda Rousey) we can see the same fire for winning and competition that men have. On a genetic level we are getting at risk assessment (something that Weldon covered in one of his videos) and right at this moment going pro is just too much of a risk. However this isn't something that can't be overcome #B.F.Skinner
The nature argument, it hurts >_< Even if we looked at the closes relatives of human it wouldn't be close to the same since we have a much, much more advanced brain.
I'm so glad that you bring up the trans players. This is actually where the genetic argument falls to pieces and I will present the reasons. 1) Trans people even before they take the hormones have a similar brain structure to that of a natal woman. 2) They have a similar thought process as a natal women and even has almost the same amount of gray matter. 3) After some time on the hormones their brain structure changes even further. 4) with the removal of testosterone the aggression levels as well as the other perceived benefits. In conclusion this proves that it is in fact a social issue since they were not raised as a women and had not had it pounded into their head by the media.
If women we kept off pro teams I wouldn't fault the team or organization, the last thing a team needs is for Queen Bee Syndrome to kick in.
Saying that all of those skills (special recognicion etc.) are not genetic and aren't effected by different brain wiring is ridiculously silly.
Also your stance about the trans part still makes no sense, if they are born with brains more similar to women and then lose test on top of that after op they should not be performing better than females who are born female. That is what thoorin is saying and your points about them being born with still slightly different brains does not change that.
Necrosythe2 I'm not saying men don't have a small head start. And we don't even know why men do, for all we know it's their early childhood. However, long term testing on children isn't allowed anymore so we can't get the answers. Summing it all up and just saying, "Genetic" is the height of lazy science.
Your comment is a mess of appeals to ignorance backed by pure conjecture. Women are taught to play nice and therefore have poorer spatial awareness? Really? Citing genetic differences (which observably exist) isn't lazy science, it's reality. What's lazy is trying to obfuscate with completely unsubstantiated, woolly pop culture sociology based pseudo-scientific nonsense. Sad.
+Crispy with extra butter Your channel is full on unoriginal content, you have a stupid name, and an avatar to go with it. Why would I take anything you have to same seriously? More to the point you are building a straw man and trying to force me to defend someone that I never even hinted at. Get a life or come back with facts
Not an argument. Just more weak attempts at obfuscation. Sad.
Do you have a source for the chess claims for the italian university
RubberDuck003 just Google it dude
miss harvey herself said women can't compete with men because they don't have the same drive as men.men will practice 8 hours a day while women will practice for half of that(if that).it's pathetic how when she was accepting her prize at oakland, she made those stupid comments about how being a women in esports is not so easy.
she must have worn her big girls boots at oakland tournament... a symbol of strong independent women... lol
Love the open perspective on your opinions, Thorin. Its refreshing compared to the force-fed shit we are usually hearing.
Duncan Thorin Shields: Triggering SJW since 2014
Glass has a little water, thorin drinks, the glass has a little water, thorin drinks again, glass still has a little water XD
I wish Thorin had've ended with "Get fucked Bogdan you absolute fucking smeghead" would've made my year.
love your vids man. but id totally dig if you could provide the links to that citations you did in the future, so ppl could use them for further research :)
Fuck 'em up Thorin
You couldve mentioned Queen who plays Vain Glory for the chinese Team Hunters. Vain Glory is 3v3 MOBA game on mobile very popular in Korea. It is even broadcasted in english on OGN by your friend MonteCristo. I believe she is even the shotcaller and leader of the team.
you could rephrase it to "ciswomen" in gaming xP
any specific reason why u didn't mention Scarlett from StarCraft 2?
He did.
because pro teams dont want to carry the just because of their boobs? i mean when they are girls on this level, why shouldnt she play vs the pros? the problem is imho there are no girls who plays so good
tl;dr
***** Sorry i was joking mate xD
I can't wait to see the thorin vs reddit video on this. The levels of irrationality that I can guarantee will come out of this will be mind blowing. I have noticed that as soon as you question someone's identity or how they identify themselves (I.e. Gender, sexual orientation, etc.) they immediately shut down all reasoning functions and it becomes a socially aggressive, and often threatening attack against you for even suggesting the possibility that they might be wrong. I'm eagerly awaiting your video regarding that. Love the work. Keep it up.