In defense of the Greens
Вставка
- Опубліковано 29 тра 2024
- devils avocado.
i didn't know my hair looked like that, ok.
00:00 - Bad things bad
04:53 - ~discourse~
06:50 - THE PATRIARCHY
08:41 - The "Rightful" Heir
14:10 - Both sides bad
17:27 - The Tattle of the Bastards
21:23 - Mother
24:17 - The Next Generation
30:54 - Losers
be nice to me on twitter - / m1randabeastly
#houseofthedragon #houseofthedragonseason2 #hotd #hotds2 #targaryen #asoiaf #fireandblood #gameofthrones #grrm #teamgreen #teamblack #helaenatargaryen #aegontargaryen #aemondtargaryen #alicent #ottohightower #hotdragonsummer #daemontargaryen #cristoncole #rhaenyratargaryen #baelatargaryen #rhaenystargaryen #vhagar - Розваги
I see a lot of people get this wrong. Westeros doesn't follow absolute primogenitor it follows male-preference primogenitor (like the British throne up until recently). Under absolute primogenitor Rhaeneys would have been the rightful heir, but under male-preference Rhaeneys' father would have had to been King for her to be the heir. Since her (Rhaeneys) father (Aemon) died before his father (Jahereys) the next closest male descendent to the reigning monarch was Jahereys' second son and then when he died the next closest male to the King was Viserys his grandson. Now had Aemon NOT died first and became King then Rhaeneys would have been the heir (assuming Aemon never had sons later) this is because he would have had NO male decedents and a daughter comes before a brother.
god these rules are complicated and dumb can't we just have a talent show or something?
@@QuinnFirstOfHerName Lol I completely agree or just have an election all the time.
@@TravisKastl-ui9mk we're about 200 years too early for democracy. plus it's gonna take a night king and a mother of dragon
lol don’t even get me started on the train wreck that was the ending of thrones.
you are actually wrong in westeros daughters come before uncles jaehearys choose baelon over rheanys because he himself upsurped his niece aerae and naming rhaenys his heir would be the same as admitting he himself is an upsurper ironically enough the great council pretty much said fuck tradition by choosing viserys over rheanys also the irone throne was like 130 years old at the time of the dance and no actual clear succesion was ever established during that time and viserys could have easily stopped the dance by being a little more competent
Really the only solution to this problem was Rhaenyra and Alicent getting married but we didn't deserve that.
*and bedded
bruh... are you stoned
@@josephbulkin9222It's a joke kiddo.
Also, in regards to the hatred of Alicent.
I've only just realized this. In terms of fantasy/medieval stories, a male character who adheres to the values of "duty and sacrifice" while sticking to his gender role will always be more well-liked than their female counterpart.
Stannis Baratheon is the very epitome of this rule. He worships duty while being very bitter that Robert never appreciated him. Yet the majority of people hail him as "Stannis the Mannis"
Alicent is not hated by normies( or men in general) but by tumblr feminist side that worships Daenerys and is projecting her on Rhaenyra now
Nerver thought about it but yes. Alicent is literally a woman that puts her duty and religious devotion above her own needs, if you described her to some Medieval knight he would consider her the perfect Queen/Princess/Noble lady and yet here we are, people with modern perceptions and morality projecting their hate towards her.
Aemond did nothing wrong. He was attacked first. I never count the person who was hit first in an altercation as in the wrong in any way, shape, or form unless they go overboard in their retaliation, which he didn't. He actually showed restraint. I don't care in the least that he called the Strong brothers "bastards" because it's the truth, and they just attacked him. If you're siding with the people punishing those speaking the truth, you're very clearly on the wrong side.
Go Green Team! I'm tiered of people saying Otto Hightower is power hungry. I mean he is but so is everone else in this show.
Otto’s personal ambition aligns with the realm’s best interest so is her wrong?
The Targaryens were using his daughter as a plaything, passing her around the family. The daughter of the second richest family in the realm and the previous ruling family of Westeros. The insult was beyond words.
Yeah I mean Corlys is no better, he's just as power hungry
@@Captain_Insano_nomercy Thinking about it more I would say Corlys is worse than Otto.
When Otto was kicked out of the capital and lost the position for telling the truth he went quietly.
Every single time Corly doesn't get his way he has a hissy fit. The man started a war in the Stepstones because the king refused to f*ck his 12-year-old daughter.
@@horse1048 I like Corlys because he is charismatic, but the talk between Laena and Viserys was just wtf. Like really??? Really Corlys???
Aemond taking Vhagar was one of the highlights of S1.
Him claiming and riding was the highlight of S1 for me
One thing that I think is interesting is that, if you count Viserys (depending on whether you think Rhaenys had just as strong or stronger claim to the throne as him), then technically the past 3 generations of Targaryen Kings have all been usurpers of a woman or girls claim to the throne unintentionally setting a precedent.
Aegon II is my king he’s got the drip he’s got the best boy Sunfyre, he does a little trolling.
He was a turd, but he wasn't as bad as Aegon IV, or Aegon V, for that matter. Aegon II never sacrificed his own children to hatch dragons. Yeah, he killed his sister, but look what she did first.
The showrunners obviously want the audience to side with Rhaenyra, so I'm team green just out of spite. Though I'd much prefer to not be on a side at all due to both sides having moral shortcomings. I just can't stand it when people cheer team black. It's like, uh, you do know that she married her uncle, right? That she lives a complete lie and allows people to be offed for speaking the truth? You saw how Daemon offed his wife that he never even interacted with just so he could get married to another woman? Etc, the list is a mile long. I'd feel the same way about team green, but 99% of people I've seen support black, so I just don't feel the same.
I really appreciated hearing a far more analytical and pragmatic view of both factions. Really great work all around! Your hair's great too!
Even as a person who likes the Green characters more, a lot of my favorite characters from the books are on the Blacks, we just haven't met them yet.
I don't understand those trying to justify atrocities or dismissing Aegon's behaviors, any more than I understand dismissing Daemon's behaviors. There are heroes and villains on both sides and I try to root for either of them.
Well if Daeron does exist in the show then Viserys left him out of “all the faces I love most” dinner speech, likely bc he just forgot about his existence.
Which is fitting since we also get the feeling he neglected Aegon, Aemond and Haelena.
^And likely even Rhaenyra before Aemma died.
@@AmantducafeIts not a feeling its what happend. Seeing Viserys stand up for Rhaenyra time after time but not for him when he got such a significant injure probably made him feel a little terrible
@@Thrawn23. Oh yes. I hope they touch that topic of being neglected in season 2, Aegon already said it on his way to the coronation, he never believed his father cared for him to be king.
It's all just a huge mess. Misunderstanding, manipulation, grooming and than the dragons. Alicent is a good person, but has been manipulated into being their families' "claim" to power.
In an alignment test I think Alicent is a Neutral Good character, where I think Rhaenyra is far more Chaotic Neutral. That's why I think Rhaenyra gets more sympathy because most people are Chaotic Neutral.
Otto is Lawful Neutral to me. Not a villain, but hard to understand because we're not of tat time.
Aegon to me is the true villain, he does horrible things all for his own satisfaction: Chaotic Evil.
Damon, Aemond and Christian Cole are hard to pin point because they seem to have contradicting values depending on the situation. I feel like they're all in Neutral Evil, maybe Lawful evil even?
So Aegon is true evil (because ra**, but Deamon (wife kill**) is hard to pin point????
I’m on rhaenyra’s side, but god forsaken me I will never call my self any team color and the only character I will always defend is 10 year old aemond, the way people so obsessed with moral superiority debate that fight its disgusting
LEAVE MY SON ALONE
It's what humans do best, we "other" the people we don't like and find reasons to justify doing bad things to them
@@Captain_Insano_nomercy Yes. Avoid the HotD online spaces like tha plague. Both sides do it, but the black side is unhinged. And I was part of the Supernatural fandom. I have never seen such a toxic mess before.
I prefer Rhaenyra as ruler, but like many of the green characters, because they are nore fleshed out so far. They will call you everything mean under the moon that you can think off. And get very personal, by relating your preferences to your personality, value system and what mental disorders you have.
The reason for that. I don't like Daemon, but so far liked Aemond in the show ( book is something else entirely ). I had a person write me a whole fanfiction ( not a joke ) where all male characters talk with each other about how terrible they are. Except Daemon of course.
I wish I saved it. I had to laugh so much, it was so unhinged and the person so mad and angry at me. I never experienced that before.
Between show Aegon and Rhaenyra I prefer Rhaenyra as Queen, but still I was called a mysoginistic 🍇ape apologist ( idk where that came from ) and someone who supports the genocide in Gaza??? I also don't know where that comes from.... But in that same post people were celebrating child mu&der. It was a weird experience.
Yeah, don't try to go into HotD Blacks online spaces. SPN and their shipping wars was mild against this.
@danika9411 whaaaat lol. How does that link with Gaza? That's wild
Sadly I'm not surprised though, I deleted all my social media during the pandemic era but I do recall being on reddit and being banned for criticizing the Blacks. I kid you not the mods banned me for not supporting the Black narrative and you know why they officially said they banned me? Racism. Yep lol. Racism. They said I made derogatory references to black people when I criticized the Black faction in a HOTD sub reddit. I messaged the mods and was like "you guys can't be serious right?". I always capitalized it too when I said the Blacks
I mean the context was absolutely clear but they didn't care at all. The Black fans are insane. Truly insane. The Fandom is just crazy people out for blood
@danika9411 I wrote you a whole long reply but for some reason it never showed up. Dang. But anyway, I definitely agree with you here, the fanbase be crazy
Omg THANK YOU for pointing out that everyone in that fight where Aemond lost his eye were kids. Sometimes people only defend Aemond or only defend Luke, but none of them can really be blamed, they're kids!
Rhaenyra is a better person than Aegon but Rhaenyra ruling is way worse than Aegon ruling.
I am unapologetically Team Green. Rhaenyra is the Beta version of Cersei.
hot take maybe but I think as is, rhaenyra makes for a much worse ruler than aegon
Especially considering the council she has, they're absolute no-good individuals, who know nothing about ruling, including her blood-thirsty husband who always relies on violent force instead of democratically/politically handling a matter.
Aegon's council on the other hand has stood the test of times, they've ruled in the king's absence for decades and are objectively more cool minded as well. They'll handle stuff even if aegon drunkenly spends his days in the keep.
Hard disagree. Rhaenyra has at least lived her life more or less preparing to rule just to have it swiped up at the last moment. Aegon, with his fighting pit bastards and misuse of his position to rape his servants, isn't someone I'd want as father of the kingdoms.
@@jacobsquare4812 the bastards that are "allegedly" his. men from Lys come to King's Landing to trade all the time. Erryk Cargyll is a liar who'll jump on anything to make Aegon look bad, he's been Rhaenyra's man for years.
@@jacobsquare4812 she hasn't though. she's so ill-prepared to rule. it's partially her fault and majorly viserys' fault.
- for years viserys had her be the cup bearer, probably to have her unofficially learn about running the kingdom from council session. but that was it. a cup bearer. he never involved her in major decisions, never asked for her opinions and she was put in a position for the council members to look down on her.
- she spent 10+ years in kings landing after viserys remarried and got 2 additional sons. she knew people were not happy with a female heir. she knew her status as heir was challenged. yet she made no political moves to strengthen her claims or strengthen/make allies. what did she do instead? she had 3 bastards that further put her claim at risk.
- then, when things got difficult, she jetted off to an island, knowing full well that in her absence the green would gain power. she effectively removed herself from the game for 6 years and still expected her status to hold???? she only returned when her son's claim to driftmark (therefore her claim to the throne) was challenged. and what was her plan this time? begging her DYING father for help. like damn, rhaenyra, didn't you abandon him for 6 years?
- last we heard, she did not care that the common folks did not want a female ruler, telling daemon they'd just have to accept her. well if she didn't even try to win over the nobles in kings landing, we can be damn sure she did not try to win over the common folks. granted, she could've changed since then, but we don't know. there's no scene to indicate that. she did try not to plunge the country into wars because she didn't want to rule over ashes, but so was the green. if anything, it was her blood-thirsting husband that was pushing for wars so that's not a good look for team black.
every move rhaenyra made reeks of entitlement. if it's too much work, she won't do it until her claim is basically paper thin, then she tries to salvage. and she has not learned. people warned her but she absolutely does not learn. "stale oath will not put you on the iron throne", nope, gonna send a child to negotiate without a bargaining chip. "men would rather set the realm ablaze than see a woman ascend the iron throne", nope, I'm special. so yeah, I'd rather take my chance with the green.
Omg I thank you so much for the well thought out video. I am team green and the most infuriating thing about the fandom is the complete dismissal of the legitimate concerns Alicent has for her children. No one has to like the greens,but to willfully be dishonest about the situation Alicent was put into is just wrong. Thank you
Exactly! If you can't understand that, you don't understand this story.
One thing I disliked about the show is that they barely show Rhaenyra growing as a politician. In the book the say she sits at the base of the iron throne during court as a kid. They only showed her suggest one political move which was just: “let’s the the triarchy with dragons!”. If they showed her doing one smart thing for every blunder she makes maybe I could support the blacks. I’m just not convinced she’d be as good as Otto being a king in all but name.
I also dislike the portrayal of Aegon. They purposely used mushrooms account of the fighting pits which have to be false because mushroom
A) he wasn’t in kingslanding
B) his job his to make Rhaenyra laugh. Probably by making fun of her political enemies.
If they used the other account of him caring for a paramour instead it wouldn’t have made him look so evil and would actually make more people team green. Also in the book he refuses the crown because it was sworn to his sister and not because he wants to get drunk all day.
I am a viserys hater first and foremost
Thank God someone said it! Beala is the rightful heir!
_(overturns table and stands up in rage)_
Love your videos my guy
I love this nuanced analysis, it was delightful to watch!
absolutely loving this work and so proud i get to join this channel in its infancy! keep going at it because your analysis is so insightful and entertaining ❤️
Thank you!
“I would become a menace immediately” REAL
remember to add "tags" in video editor to get this trending more
I agree with a lot of what you said, including how the tribalism can make it harder to engage with the fanbase. I really appreciate your thoughtful analysis.
You’re also really funny, your disclaimer at the beginning cracked me up and describing Aegon as a child job creator is something else. Just wanted to share my appreciation. Definitely subbed for more in the future.
Rhaenyra being named heir doesn't make her "lawful". Also her kids being bastards, puts her brothers at huge risk. Joffrey had his bastard brothers killed when questions were raised over raised over his own parentage, even he was an acknowledged heir and accepted by his father as his son & heir. Sure maybe Rhaenyra wouldn't actually go through with it(big if), but daemon or her sons definitely not.
Great video, I love your commentary!! I hope you make more HoTD content 🥺
Thank you! I am working on more :)
I would argue, that in the political framework of westeros, its hard to say Rhaynera is a better mother than alicent. A good mother wouldnt make her children bastards and try to pass them as legitimate in a world where that could literally lead to all of them dying for said lie. You can be the nicest, gentlest, nurturing mother in practice, but if the foundation you gave your kids would lead to their violent execution (even outside the context of a war or inheritance struggles), its kinda hard to say shes better than a woman whos just negligent. Both are negligent, in different ways.
My new favourite ASOIAF/HOTD channel
I really enjoyed this show and all of its characters!! For all of its faults, it can really make you see the world from a very different point of view (after my initial Unlikeable Factor gut reaction wore off XD)
Thank you for the video! I enjoyed it very much. I can tell by how much you have to qualify every statement you make that you have wandered onto HOTD twitter XD
(very brave of you. I do not recommend, for anyone reading this lol)
Rhaenyra is my fave character of the show, but I do not participate in any online discourse for my own sanity. Even if someone 99% agrees with you, you might get insulted for that 1% they just misread or misunderstood, and suddenly everyone is accusing you of crimes.
Just gonna.... keep my thoughts inside my head where they belong. Maybe chat with people in real like about it XD
and with all that said, if "the best option" was determined by who had the best balanced personality to deal with being ruler and navigating the world as needed, my very bias heart will say Jace.
So far, he has good traits for ruling & takes the job seriously. Studies hard, not a lunatic, generally diplomatic and likeable. Since your environment does shape you, as someone being guided by Rhaenyra with whom he had a functional relationship with, he had a far better chance to grow into a good ruler than anyone else on the show (Rhaenyra, being guided by Viserys and Daemon, would have a tougher time ruling imo, even though she's got some decent traits too (the main one being that I like her the most, of course lol)).
Yeah, really everyone should stay away from twitter.
This thumbnail is merch.
Aemond was dutiful and decent until Alicent allowed Aegon to ruin him. You can argue Luc did that by taking his eye out. But let's be honest, it never would have gotten to that point if Aegon didn't instigate the constant bullying of his own brother for not having a dragon.
The bar is so low... for been better than Daemon T is not hard at all 😂
* also all this would have been avoided if Alicent use a little courage to speak to Rhaenyra and Rhaenyra wasnt such a spoiled brat.
I mean as kids it was understandable and forgiven but as a 30 yo grown women is just to much for me 😪
Ok you won me over... I'm subscribing
I am with you. I love the show however, I wouldn't say I like the whole team thing. If anything I am, team small folk. Both sides have their points though Aegon or Ranchera would not be a good ruler. because they don't truly understand that they also must follow the rule of land. Or if they find them unfair then they need to work to change them.
First video of yours I've seen and I love your take here. Wayyyy too many people see this as a simple good versus evil story
i will say that i want Aemond to be king. simply because he is out of this world hot :))
I don’t blame you😭
0:20 no fun allowed, I see
Jesus Christ! How many Quinn's are there in the _ASOIAF_ community?! You're like the third!
Couldn't have said it better! Also props to the "bad things bad" disclaimer lol Should have been obvious but it's a necessity due to how weird online hotd's and got's discourse has become 💀
My position in this war is a mix of Dorne and Wildlings:
"Dorne has danced with dragons before, I would sooner sleep with scorpions.” and "Fookin' kneelers".
Anyway, as a book reader i am all in to watch the Targaryen invaders tear each other apart.
you mean dorne has plot armored with dragons as dorne staying independent was George trying to give the tags a Vietnam which makes no sense since this is a feudal society not a modern state
@@durrangodsgrief6503 What plot armor? Dorne was constantly under attack, their people constantly burning but due to the enviroment and the tribalistic nature of these people they couldn't be conquered.
George didn't mirror them as Vietnam but as Afghanistan, difficult terrain, clan/tribal structure that won against super powers despite not being a modern state.
And i don't think Afghanistan has plot armor, they handed the americans their asses on a silver platter.
preach
Rt comes with to much baggage as an heir while Aegon faults are not publicly known and lets be honest Aegon will be doing what he and Rhaenyra was doing for the last 6 years lets Otto, Alicent, and the rest of the council do the work lol
I would still choose Aegon because he can be manipulated by his competent counselors. Rhaenryra had the chance to build alliances but instead had to rely on her father to protect her from all the mistakes SHE made.
I choose the side that will not destabilize the realm and that will respect the traditions and culture of westeros.....granted my choice would be Rhaenys over the horrible two choices of Aegon and Rhaenyra.
Ive been team green since the end of season 1 n I congratulate u on a fantastic fair unbiased depth into the green family. New subscriber heading ur way
💚even though I like and hate characters on both sides
Made me so angry when people got mad and all crazy when Alicent slaps Aegon for raping a girl!! Really ????
Biased much
I would have done worse than a slap and acusing her of abuse for slaping his son for rape 😂 instead of been angry at Aegon for the rape she got all the hate
WTF people!!! Get over it
She is a victim of abuse and rape of course she when mad for that
Imagine
We all have been strike by a parent for much less than rape
And called it whatever but in my opinion this new gen Z or Alpha or whaetevr is called are very soft and fragile
I don’t think anyone is saying the slap itself was abuse. It’s this and the grabbing his face and screaming at him insisting that he will be king whether he wants it or not bc if he doesn’t become king he and the rest of their family will die. This is their dynamic and she is emotionally abusing him the slap scene (while justified in the circumstance) gets the point that this has been how he has been treated his entire life across than her forcibly grabbing his face. If that makes sense?
@@islasullivan3463 no i dont mean her. I mean when the show came out the people went crazy in UA-cam for the slap.
Yes screaming at him was abuse.
She did what her father what her father had been doing to her
But that wasnt the point
My point was how easy it was for everyone to ignore Aegon rape of women and turn on Alicent for slaping and yelling at him.
It was absurd seeing and hearing peoples reactions
I agree. It wasnt fair to Alicent. But im not surprise people did that. Even in my group of friends Alicent and Aemon got all the hate and made me just want to beat them up. Otto is a pimp and a horrible father and person, and Aegon is a drunk and a rapist. Where do people find the others been the worst of the show. Like how ? 🤔
Alicent, Helaena and Aemon to me are the only three even with their mistakes, the only ones not specially evil that i dont want to see suffer even knowing how the story is gonna end if the follow the book. I feel worry for all of them
Me personally i dont support kings at all and the peasants should rise up and tear down the nobles. Let them rejoice at the freedom (or more likely death) of their dragons 🗿
To be fair rhaenyra didn't suggest they get tortured for saying her kids were bastards but stated he should be questioned to see where he heard that from, considering from that point alicent had been not only feeding this information to her children ( regardless of wether they would figure it out themselves which absolutely they would I mean look at them) she had been openly stating this to not only the king, BUT Laenor which is a HUGE risk on her part considering he really could have killed her on sight, similar to how daemon killed velaryon , while I do think Laenor would have more of a risk in killing the queen, if he stand on grounds of treason considering the way really lets just about anything rhaenyra does slide, he would have (begrudgingly me thinks), now I don't think this would have stopped the dance of dragons I think no matter what there was no way to truly stop the dance, even if they took steps to reconcile long before the children grew up, actually it would have made for a better story tv wise if they had. Also I think the tv directors had a part in the divide between rhaenyra and alicent because they cut of a lot of scenes and added what I think is unessesary tension where it didn't need to be added, like the scenes where a young rhaenyra is holding and playing with baby Aegon, then after laena dies and their kids are crying he holds both his girls showing he was always supposed to be a grey character as George RR martin wanted, but considering he actually is working on this show I think he wants, now this is just my 2 cents but I think he may end house of dragons with a completely different ending to the original story I think he has plans to create a different universe one for the OG fans ( book readers/ the true ending) and one for the new fans (tv only watchers) and I believe this to be the case because of how different yet similar the show is to the novel had they stuck to the novel you could see why rhaenyra and alicent didn't have a close bond ( because there was a close one to begin with ), like it made no sense to me why they would imply then later confirm rhaenyra had a one sided feelings with alicent, in some things the directors did amazingly well like making the Velaryons black characters and having their king marry Rhaenys causing them to have mixed children so it made the argument that rhaenyra and laenor childrens being bastards more obvious but in the same sense that much more harder to argue since we don't know the velaryon family tree and we know true targaryens ( of incest) come out silver haired and that's all we have to go by, overall I really love your video and agree that people give alicent way more shit then she deserved they villanize someone who is an undeniable victim, I just think it was more a directorial choice than anything, they made these 2 girls face horrible circumstances and forced them to make wrong choices because there was no right choice I think the war was gonna happen come what may.
"Questioned sharply" is a euphemism for torture in this world. Fire and Blood even put it in quotes to emphasize this. The alternate universe idea is interesting, because the HOTD is technically a prequel to ASOIAF and not GOT. We know this because the intro text says it's 172 years before Dany, and the starting year of the show is 112 AC, which adds up to her book birth year of 284 AC, but her birth year in show canon is 281.
@@QuinnFirstOfHerName oh i never caught this, true she should have never tried to get her kid brother hurt I do think it was more of a directorial choice or rhaenyra was really pushing to get alicent out of the way she only knew how which was through her father the king, I'm also thinking this is why it's taking winds of winter so much longer to finish because if he's really doing a alternate universe he has to line it up just right also the novel and the show are parallel not completely contradictory, causing a bunch of fights throughout the fan base I like the idea that there can be more to his world I love the GOT universe book or show
I disagree out of all of Viserys kids Aemond should be king because Rhaeynra and Aegon are both spoiled incompetent bafoons
I mean I love Aemond but he's got some serious issues as well. This family has problems lol
@@QuinnFirstOfHerName the whole incest lineage doesn't help either.
Aemond did some bad decision as lord protector, all driven by his stupid pride and caused the fall of Cole's army.
Daeron should have been King. He's the best out of all of em
Tribalism and confirmation bias...lest dysfunctional house is house Velaryion # it should have been queen Rheanys 😂😂😂
Thr greens are hypocritical
If you look closely enough you will find that amog the blacks too
I disagree with the notion that Rhaenyra is more to blame for Alicent’s children not liking Rhaenyra. You have to assume both Alicent and Otto repeatedly told the children that Rhaenyra would be forced to kill them if she rose to power. This wouldn’t have been a one time discussion. Having this drummed into you would have had a larger impact than anything Rhaenyra would have done. Not to mention all of the casual negative speak of Rhaenyra and her kids that likely when on within Alicent’s household. Also, judging by Alicent’s attitude it’s unlikely to believe that Rhaenyra would have been given access to Alicent’s kids without Alicent being present so Rhaenyra wouldn’t have had the opportunity to build a positive relationship with them. And for a good portion of time she was living in Dragonstone not Kingslanding, so again lack of access. Alicent was a horrible mother who fostered the hate between the families not Rhaenyra. Also, and this is imo the primary issue, Rhaenyra offered her son for marriage. Had Alicent gotten her head out of her ass long enough to see the opportunity she would have realized that this option would truly be what’s best for the Realm. This was one of your chief points, correct? This would have avoided either side from attempting to kill the other. Alicent is not only wrong but she played wrong and she’s trash like her son who isn’t worthy of sitting the throne because of his own issues as well.
Forget girl power. Rhaenyra’s claim is true unless the argument is that a King does NOT have the right to choose his heir which isn’t the case.
Team Black!!
Your assertion that Alicent was repeatedly telling her kids that Rhaenyra would kill them just isn't supported by the text. If you watch the scene between Alicent and Aegon in episode six, it is clearly the first time she has said that to him. She is admonishing him for being friendly with Jace and Luke, clearly he wasn't poisoned against them at that point. And it is very possible that Rhaenyra might have had to kill her half brothers to secure power for her and her sons, this isn't just paranoia.
And like I said in the video, marrying Helaena and Jace isn't going to make his claim legitimate, because it is based on a lie that everyone can see at a glance. Alicent isn't just out to get her blood on the throne, she wants to protect her sons. Aegon, Aemond and Daeron will still be rival claimants to the throne with a better claim. Jace is an interesting figure in this story because he is the worthy heir, I would love to see him and Baela rule the Seven Kingdoms, but not a legitimate heir by the standards of this world.
@@QuinnFirstOfHerName I can concede that neither a show nor a book can clearly illustrate what day to day conversations went on in Alicent’s household but I do believe it’s reasonable to believe that between Alicent’s hatred and Otto’s long game the children were likely steered in a direction to mistrust Rhaenyra. You can’t deny me that 😊. If one of your parents had a blood oath level of hatred toward your next door neighbor while you were growing up it would be reasonable to assume this hatred would shape how you viewed the neighbor as well, correct? And you most certainly would be aware of this hatred even if your parent only brought it up once.
And speaking of poor assertions, yours concerning Rhaenyra’s lack of effort to put Alicent’s children’s mind at ease that she wouldn’t kill them is just as shaky as my earlier assertion at least according to your rule of lacking proof in the text or show. We never see Rhaenyra openly stating she doesn’t want to have anything to do with Alicent’s kids. For all we know she made the effort and was rebuked by Alicent. If you had an enemy do you really think they would allow you access to their children?
As for Jace/Helaena, first can we agree that the offer shows that Rhaenyra for all her faults is the person actively attempting to make peace and that Alicent is the one pressing forward with the feud? Which points to the fact that even if it’s for selfish reasons Rhaenyra’s actions are those that have the best chance to keep the Realm safe for everyone where Alicent’s actions are those that lead to war, instability and are also selfish. But secondly and more important, we should recognize that there isn’t a 100% sure fire way to guarantee in this world of bastards, 2nd sons and chaos makers (ie, Larry’s or LF types) that a challenge to the throne wouldn’t happen anyway. But this marriage would have reduced the odds of war by a great deal. Especially since we the audience know that Aegon doesn’t even want the throne so a challenge isn’t coming from him. Plus any challenge would need financial backing and neither Rhaenyra’s side or the Hightowers would be willing to back such a challenge since both families would be assured a direct blood tie to the throne within 2 generations. Old money is always in favor of keeping the status quo going and not rocking the boat.
You are right the marriage likely would have decreased the chances of war during Rhaenyra’s time but once it was time for Jace to ascend war would break over his succession likely between him and his half brothers by Daemon, and/or the new gen of greens. And everyone knows this.
If it didn’t delay the war (bc as seen in the show it never mattered if Aegon didn’t want the throne he was always going to be forced to be king) Heleana would likely be used as a political hostage like Sansa was, though likely treated better than she was.
@@islasullivan3463 I don't disagree with your notion of a power grab once Jace ascends the throne but the problem is this can't be helped. I still stand by the position that a Jace/Heleana match would reduce the chance of war more so than any other choice. The proof is that war is clearly going to happen with Aegon taking the throne as we know this happens. So a possibility in this case is better than a certainty.
There are two real problems that can't be avoided. (1) All of the inbreeding that goes on so any and all children have some sort of claim to the throne if you look at the evidence in a certain light. this will always lead to conflict no matter who rules. And (2) humans have always coveted what others have and come up with justifications to go to war over it. This can't be helped it's who we are. What can be helped is the families following the rules they themselves have setup. Which is the sitting King decides who rules after they die. In this case the choice has been made publicly and more than once that Rhaenyra will rule which makes Team Black correct and Team Green wrong.
Finally, just as a sidenote, you mentioned that Aegon was "always going to be forced to be king" which I have an issue with. Not in the fact that they captured him and could/did apply pressure but just the idea itself. This really stems from GoT and Sansa's quest to somehow "force" Jon into ruling instead of Dani. I'm just not sure how you can force someone to sit and make decisions publicly if they don't choose to do so. Jon's honor likely would have "forced" him into sitting the iron throne and living a sad life but Aegon doesn't have any honor. which is likely why they had to have the silly (imo) scene of Aegon getting all pumped up about ruling because the people cheered for him as if he hasn't experienced this before as prince or at least witnessed it with his father. What if Aegon, like Laenor, had managed to escape his "forced" life? What then, Aemond or one of Helaena's kids, another war to decide? Lol, the list goes on. What's actually happening is that the people "forcing" the person to become king are actually the ones grabbing at power. Otto and the rest of the nobility on team Green that was part of the long game are in it for themselves. They don't care about Aegon ruling in particular. And Sansa wasn't looking out for Jon or the Realm or for that matter the North as she claimed when she revealed his secret. She got exactly what she was actually looking for which was control of the North. In my eyes this is the one true lesson she learned well. She learned how to and became a cross between Liza and Cersei. Each had their own kingdoms where they ruled and no one (except those with dragons) could ever touch them. It likely grew out of being victimized as much as she has and she was always self centered so that didn't hurt either.
Well that was just my side rant on forcing someone to rule. Love this universe there's so many angles and perspectives to view the various players' actions from.
Well one way that you can force someone to be a ruler and have them publicly make decisions, is to not have them publicly make the decisions. Basically you imprison them and in Aegon’s case tell everyone tell everyone that he is so overcome with grief over the death of his father and so he needs seclusion but that Alicent, Otto, and Aemond all visit him and relay what is happening to him, that they then are just carrying out what the king wants.
Ok, I understand at the beginning you stated you were neutral and similar to Littlefinger you are here for the chaos 😂 BUT can you at least argue in good faith and be consistent. When discussing why people favor Rhaenyra you point out the very real issue of those who put our modern day morality on the show and simply hate the patriarchy and cheer for girl power. I agree with you that this takes away from the real issues of the show and our way of life shouldn’t influence how we see the motivations of the characters within this world. However, you then do the opposite when discussing Alicent in terms of her being a horrible mother. You proceed list off excuses like her being married off to a man more than twice her age and being sexually assaulted within her marriage. These actions are normal for this world at this time. You like many others act as if Otto has done something that isn’t considered normal for their world. Taking the opportunity to marry your daughter off to a prominent family is how things are done. And sex within marriage has never been considered SA in this world and wasn’t in ours some 50 to 100 years ago. The sex she had with the King may not have been enjoyable but it was her duty and Alicent is all about duty remember. Recall her religion as well. Didn’t the High Sparrow tell Marghery it was her duty to have sex with Tommond. This is upheld in her own faith which she incorporated into the life of the castle. And don’t forget she couldn’t even tell her son that she liked him when he needed to hear it the most. No, Alicent was a horrible mother because she became a horrible person largely due to her jealousy of Rhaenyra. But life is fair and being the daughter of 2nd son doesn’t offer the same opportunities as being daughter to a king. She should be held accountable for her action much like you hold Rhaenyra for hers.
I honestly believe that the Alicent fan base are the same people or at least use the same playbook as the Sansa fan base. They never take an honest look at these characters’ actions and decisions and decide that they are bad people or at least their choices are bad. Their fans always make some excuse as to why these two characters make some of the most boneheaded choices. Usually pointing to the fact that they were young or decisions were out of their hands. But at the same time they don’t have a problem pointing out the flaws of other young characters, smh.
Anyway, even with the disagreements I enjoyed your video as this is my first time seeing you. And I look forward to seeing new material in the upcoming season.
My point about Rhaenyra is that she doesn't actually represent girl power, she represents her own power. It's fine to like or dislike characters based on modern morals, as long as you can understand the in world perspective as well.
Exploring a character's perspective and understanding their circumstances is not making excuses for them. And it is relevant to point out the abuse Alicent suffered, because it is abuse and trauma, regardless of whether it is acknowledged as such in this world, and it clearly has shaped her decisions and who she has become. I could make similar arguments in favor of Rhaenyra, who was also groomed and abused, but the purpose of this video is to address what I see as very bad faith takes against the greens that aren't really supported by the text.
And I am also a Sansa fan, but I don't see her and Alicent as particularly similar beyond the fact that they are both unfairly maligned redheads. Alicent has done plenty of things that are worth condemnation, but I don't think that Sansa has done anything wrong but be naive, and she is literally a child(book Sansa at least, I cannot defend what ~that~ show did to my girl). I try to take an empathetic approach to all of the characters in this universe, because I think that makes the stories more compelling.
I'm glad you enjoyed the video!
@@QuinnFirstOfHerName Your opening point about Rhaenyra I believe we may be coming at it from different angles but actually agree so I’ll leave that alone.
As for excuses for Alicent, you led with her “abuse/trauma” and lack of control before addressing the issue of her poor mother skills. This, at least to me sounds like excuse making which I could be wrong but otherwise why mention it first as if you were laying the ground work. But, imo, once you become a parent you should make every effort to put your past behind you a be a good parent. If that’s not possible, which it isn’t for some because trauma can run deep, then you should give your children up or accept that you are going to be labeled a bad parent. Blaming the parents that raised you for your failings once you’re a parent only makes you worse. If Otto was horrible, which they never showed that he was, then let’s blame his parents for his behavior and so on and so on. No one is ever held accountable in that scenario.
That being said I don’t think we agree on what was considered abuse in this world and time. I believe you’re looking at it from our own modern morality. I know I’m repeating myself but marring your daughter off and having sex with your husband when he wanted it was considered normal. Why would this be considered abusive in this world especially if there wasn’t any threat or physical violence involved? If that’s the case then Rhaenyra was abused by being forced to marry not only a man she had no feelings for but one who didn’t like women and this should remove any judgement for poor decisions after her marriage. And I think we all can agree she was a pretty good mother especially compared to Alicent. Or better still, we should always lead off when discussing Catlyn Stark with the points about how she was forced to marry not only a man she didn’t love or choose but the brother of the man she wanted. and was then expected to begin baring his children. Because we all know Ned Stark is fond of committing sexual assault right 😂. Now with all of this being true Cat still found a way to be a great mom (well to her natural born children 😖). So, I’m not sure why the push back when I describe Alicent as a horrible mom.
For Sansa you may have misread my statement or I screwed up typing out. But my point wasn’t that the Sansa and Alicent were similar people I was suggesting the theory that the people who like Alicent and Sansa were likely similar if not the exact same people. Which now is funny since your reply states that you’re a fan of Sansa. The similarity I’ve noticed is how Alicent and Sansa fans defend their characters. Which is, they tend to point out their age or some sort of “abuse” 😂 (our entire discussion) and rarely admit that their character is just wrong, flawed and or stupid in a given situation. Or dare I say…the character is not as good of a person as the fan base wants to believe. The characters themselves aren’t similar it’s just the fan bases for these 2 characters always seem to assume that goodness and intelligence is lurking within them and will always give them the benefit of the doubt and conceal any flaws usually by blaming other characters instead of just expecting better from either of these 2. I won’t go too hard on Sansa since you can openly admit that show Sansa wasn’t handled well. From here I’m only speaking about HBO Sansa since we have a beginning, middle and end for her story and therefore full development and GRRM doesn’t feel it necessary to prioritize finishing his own work. But what’s especially annoying about Sansa fans is at least in reaction videos no one likes her until Ned dies. That’s almost universally true. But as soon as she begins to be victimized some people begin to adore her. I can understand having empathy for her but the tv series never really shows her change as a person except become angrier which is never good just ask good ole Krispy Kole in HOTD. Seriously, nearly every scene she’s in from s2 - s5 is more about whoever she sharing the scene with than it is about her or her development. So you’re stuck with who she is in s1, a spoiled brat on her way to becoming a new Cersei if life doesn’t treat her well. GRRM gave us a wonderful list of characters to love and hate and I don’t begrudge anyone’s choice of favorites but it’s always odd to me how a character can do nothing and accomplish so little and be so well liked by some simply for being a victim for all I can tell. People started like Theon the same way once he became Reek but he at least went on to make an effort to redeem himself. Sansa went from being stupid (I mean naive 😂) to supposedly being regarded as one of the smartest people in the show by the end. How? When? Did I all of a sudden become Bran and miss a season? Book 1 Sansa is not much different than s1 Sansa but we know they take very different paths afterwards so it’s never a real good comparison to me after that. But fans always fall on the “young & naive” statement without any deviation. But my standard response has always been that both Arya & Bran are younger but are considerably kinder with more common sense and with a better survival mindset. Sometimes being naive is just being stupid and being young is just a sign of how things will be when you’re older. You are who you are often times. They give us a glimpse of young Cersei and that glimpse pretty much sums up who she became as an adult and I’m sure no Sansa fan complained about the lack of realism of that scene. Well, I’m not trying to change any minds just pointing out my observations.
Anyway I hope your young channel does well and will check it out as time goes on. Have a great weekend.
@@steelpookie7597 It's not about whether or not something is CONSIDERED abuse in Westeros. It's about whether or not a character would come out of an experience scarred/traumatized, because they DID SUFFER abuse (even if it is not acknowledged by the world or even the character themselves).
@@omolisa3783 I’m not sure I’m understanding your broader point. Whether an act is considered abuse OR not doesn’t absolve you from poor decision making in the future. This is the overall point I was attempting to make using Alicent & Sansa fans as the example of those who don’t hold these characters to a higher standard but usually fall back on excuse making for them. One such excuse is that they were abused.
To your point that it doesn’t matter if something is considered abuse but only if they come out scarred/traumatized, I have to disagree with. Again, every character should be held accountable for their own actions. We the audience can recognize how that character got that way but it should not absolve them of their actions.
First, the show doesn’t adequately illustrate that Alicent is scarred in any way by marrying Viserys or having sex with him. This is something her fans cling to without much in the way of evidence. Just rewatched the episodes where young Alicent has already had children and is pregnant again. Life looks very normal for her and she doesn’t appear to be victimized in any way just maybe a little lonely and missing her best friend. So any effort to blame Otto or Viserys for her “horrible” life is misplaced.
Second, let’s take a look at other characters who likely have some sort of trauma. Cersei was surely traumatized by her mother’s death and she brings up that painful memory multiple times during the series. But should she be forgiven for how she treats Tyrion his whole life or any of the other bad acts she does? What about Littlefinger? Small for his age, coming from a poor house, picked on by the other kids and being humiliated when he declares his love for Catlyn. Or how about Joffrey or Ramsey. Clearly their upbringings were very different but had a truly negative impact on who they became later in life. With Joffrey having the incest effect as well. But you would be hard pressed to find a Sansa fan that would be willing to give any of these last 3 a pass on how they treated Sansa. This is the hypocrisy of the Alicent & Sansa fans. They often make these sad little life is hard and unfair excuses for these 2 characters but never offer the same consideration to others especially the characters that are considered to be in direct opposition to Alicent or Sansa.
And for the record, I do believe most fans, mistakenly, are using their own modern day morality when deciding who’s good or bad as opposed making this determination on the rules, customs and morality of the actual world of Game of Thrones overall. A primary problem is that WE in the modern age don’t agree on 1 set of customs amongst ourselves. Someone from America will likely have a very different POV than someone from an Easten or Middle Eastern culture. This would make having a rational discussion with anyone outside your local area or immediate circle increasingly difficult.
@@steelpookie7597 Okay, while this story is inspired by British history or whatever, it is still a fictional story written FOR a modern audience. It is MEANT to be criticized from a modern perspective. I mean, why do you think GRRM chose this setting? It's a critique on feudalism, war, misogy and all of that.
Alicient doesn't have to state that she is scarred - anyone in her shoes would be! I mean, would you be okay in her position? And I'm not saying she is perfect or a good person btw. But she is no where near as bad or sadistic as Joffrey or Cersei (at least, yet). And of course we can criticize her or hold her accountable for her parenting and whatnot, I never argued against that. All I wanted to say is: you dismiss her pain because what she goes through is more or less expected of women in Westerosi high society. But guess what: most - if not all - of the women that go through that suffer, too! Look at Lysa Arryn, for example. Bottom line is: just because something is "normalized" doesn't mean it's not traumatic for the people that go through it.