Zelda shines when it doubles down on being strange and dark, bonus if it achieves these elements while still having an upbeat or light-hearted demeanor. ALttP through TP does this really well, and I'll stand by that.
Right on all accounts. My issue with BOTW and TOTK is, well, "too much". Too many choices to make, too many places to go, too many small mechanics to master, and too many items to collect if you have any hope of actually getting stronger. I know it's an "open world" but there were so many vast stretches of empty terrain with nothing of value in them. Spreading content thin over a gigantic continent doesn't make it more fun to explore.
Ngl, honestly I think *Twilight Princess* is where the series was at its best. Sure, it was ahead of its time, like with the larger maps, more realistic graphics and a great artstyle (which honestly still holds up well to this day)
I play ww and tp most and was thinking back to the development of skyward sword and I’m pretty sure most people were excited to see the motion control sword fighting but I don’t think anyone was asking for a completely linear game. I can’t understand that decision they made. They got themselves in a mess because of it. Hence botw.
@@sandman8920 The problem is that Nintendo tried too hard to make Skyward Sword as intuitive as possible for newcomers to the franchise, which in turn is what made the game too hand-holdy. You get stuff repeated a lot of times in a row (which is partially a blessing in disguise in case you missed something) and Faih is fucking useless
Echoes Of Wisdom to me looks like open world Zelda done right. See it's open world without removing traditional items or dungeons. That's all it takes to make me interested in the concept. So if they're still so enthralled by open world game learn from Zelda's wisdom that is wise for once.
A Link Between Worlds did that over a decade ago just fine, I don't know why people suddenly creamed themselves just because BOTW had giant empty biomes.
@@zosonte129 there was similarity in openness but they were drastically different, also ALBW was an introduction for an established audience on handheld, BOTW became a new face for the franchise launching a massively successful platform.
@@spartanq7781 Personally BOTW was great for what it aimed at during that time, empty spaces are ok to build a world if it's just on the way to great gameplay or story segments. But while BOTW was a great, simple first take, TOTK kinda showed how only adding content on top of that is limited. I agree EOW is a perfect occasion to experiment on the way to the next 3D title.
"Echoes of Wisdom" has me concerned for the franchises future. I have never felt so uncertain about a game before, on one hand if it's like "a Link Between Worlds 2" with good dungeon design and challenging combat and decent progression then I would get it but it looks to me like it's going to be a "Tears of the Kingdom 2D demake". I just want to feel like I am playing a finished game and not play testing a collection of experimental place-holders. Unfortunately the macro scale of a game isn't something that can be shown in a trailer, if the game feels like it only has one dungeon but repeated 4-9 times that won't come across in a trailer. My biggest concern is that it will have a fun "demo" like the "Great Plateau" but that will be all the game will have to offer just stretched out to 50x it's size. Originally I thought "Tears of the Kingdom" was just a DLC that got out of hand and they would likely fix all the issues in the next game but "Echoes of Wisdom" has me thinking that this is just what the games will be from now on. Maybe some people will still like it but even if it does turn out to be a "good game" I am starting to think that I will never see a Zelda game that has what I want ever again.
If you think TotK is hand-holdy I dunno what you make of every Zelda game from ocarina to skyward where the game zooms in on all of the puzzle elements as soon as you walk into a damn room.
@erikmclennan3934 If you're referring to the "3 more terminals to go" comment, I was talking about dungeon design feeling too shallow, not hand holdy. The older zelda games aren't perfect. The way the camera stopped you dead in your tracks to show you the most obvious things was incredibly annoying. Also, I get how some of my videos can come across as just me complaining with no resolution. That is because I'm not perfect. I still feel like I don't know how to properly write a script, to be honest.
@@Tenacityfromtheglass Please don't take any of my criticism of your opinions as me shitting on you or your videos. I'm just a strongly opinionated guy who is 38 and has been deeply immersed in the progression of video game design for a long time. I enjoy all of your videos that I watch. I personally love shrines and have zero issue with them. The puzzles contained therein are reward in and of themselves for me, in breath and tears.
@erikmclennan3934 like you said the other day, you get value in interacting with people of differing opinions. I'm the same way because I want to have a better understanding of both sides. My first time playing Skyward Sword was on switch. I heard the original game was borderline unbearable without how much it interrupted gameplay.
Yeah, I haven't been interested in any new games coming out, but space marine 2 and black myth wukong are 2 games I'm thinking of picking up soon when I have the money. Companies dont make games. Money doesn't make games. People make games and it's nice to see good people are still making games
I've been saying for years that "Evolution" in video games just means abandoning what makes you unique and what made people like you in the first place and becoming more like everything else. Sonic Frontiers is legit just AAA Open World game with RPG elements featuring Sonic the Hedgehog. Another example is God of War going from this cool hack n' slash to Sony movie game.
This is so true. Botw is still one of my favorite games ever, but that was not only my first ever open world game, but it had the Zelda name slapped on it. Current Zelda isn’t the same. The current focus is barren open worlds with bad dungeons and a bad story. just hope that we eventually get another linear Zelda game again. Also I really hope Nintendo doesn’t just become Sony but with open world games, we’re already getting open world Zelda, open world Pokemon, most likely open world Mario, and even Metroid Prime 4 is heavily speculated to be open world. I just don’t want Nintendo to sacrifice what made all of their games good for the sake of chasing the open world trend
TotK's story is bad, Fs with pre-established key lore aspects, absolutely shatters all the Master Sword's reputation, unga bunga buff Dorf with little to no ambition other than "me strongest there is" uninteresting, nearly everyone forgot who you were despite this game taking place a mere 4-6 years after Wild, Rauru existing is an insult, no Fi, no breaking of the Demise curse despite it being falsely hinted being the case what with all the Skyward Sword PR this game got (I distinctly remember Skyward Sword being advertised as heavily linked to TotK somehow which, again, is misleading as on Nintendo's part), no dog petting, no hookshot spiderman swinging with the physics being suuuuch a driving factor in these newer Zelda games, no underwater exploration instead a damp dark smelly overgrown cave can't see jack, COLLOSAL missed opportunity to hitch the princess with her handsome knight in shining armor, no stakes since Zelda's sacrifice was reversed giving the story little to no agency or consequence, Link as a protagonist felt nonexistent feels like everyone else was the star of the show not the guy who's saving all their 🫏s, no Link backstory before any of this went down aka no Arryl 2 or Granny 2 aka NOT WIND WAKER, didn't make me cry like Twilight Princess, dungeons are STILL NOT dungeons (pulling a couple levers to open a door and then be treated with literally the same copy-paste cutscene at the very end with each champion? Yeah naw), sky islands hardly anything worth noting although they are pretty asf to look at, I was expecting a totally NEW revamped endgame super Saiyan master sword golden tier 4 legendary new hilt new everything but naw same design with a booboo scar and hilariously less powerful... hoverbike autobuild pales in comparison to THE Master Cycle As a game, sure, it's leagues above BotW but BotW will never be topped as a one-in-a-lifetime *experience* TotK was an overblown $70 DLC and I'm tired of pretending it's not. Mid.
I don't hold it against any of the developers for trying their hand at open world. That being said, I couldn't agree with you more. None of us mind linear games so long as their fun, and open world games used to be incredibly immersive experiences that could absorb you for hours with a heavy emphasis on story and making most if not all quests unique. Now they're just a box checked in the genre list to hype and sell the game, but when it comes down to it, most of them are empty, souless collect-a-thons where a handful of quests are just rinse & repeats of the same 10-20 tasks from start to finish. I kinda see it the same as the modern hate for single player games. Like... From the gamers perspective not every game has to be multiplayer to be fun, and if it were to be multiplayer, most of us would prefer to be together when we play it. What they now would call couch co-op. But you know what sells more copies of a game then single player and couch co-op experiences? Online multiplayer games where everyone has to have their own system and a copy of the game. It's pure greed, and the greatest symptom of greed is lack of creativity. Hence why everything is the same copy/paste open world experience with a new skin slapped on it. At the end of the day, we're to blame for it. We happily lap up whatever they slide to us on the tray for whatever price it costs us. As long as we continue to do that, they can listen to compilations of our complaints like its a classical music playlist, laughing all the way to the bank.
A Link to the Past and Link Between Worlds are open worls and keep their identity. A Link to the Past is the game that hooked me with the Zelda franchise. Great video BTW.
Ngl After all was said and done I think TOTK failed at not only being a good Zelda game. I think it failed at being a good sequel to its previous game. I think BOTW was okay. Its not a Zelda game. Sorry. Its not. But for the sake of it it was a bold new direction that apparently paid off. It paid off so well its the franchise's first intentional sequel. Like this game was made with the express purpose of following up the last game. The reason BOTW succeeded is the opposite of what I think Nintendo wanted which is: It's new innovative fun. They found and really good itch to scratch and it showed with the marginal but noticeable amount of BOTW clones appearing. So how does Nintendo expand on their innovative formula. - A world that's infinitely bigger than its predecessor. More empty. Boring. The Depths is counter intuitive to BOTW's game play loop which is: "Oooh what's that over there" and leaving the beaten or intended path to get lost in other things. Can't really do that in pitch black and the theme of fear of the unknown. - Hyrule Builders with admittingly a cool idea but not very Zelda-esque. Zonai devices are a blessing a curse. For one hand I hate the TOTK gameplay loop so I appreciated just getting on a machine and skipping bullshit. Which is what the open world was anyways. In other ways you are so limited without exploiting glitches and parts hunting. Only 20 units to build with. Machines with moving parts can only go in one direction such as those with wheels which made operating "cars" feel clunky and not very fun. - And finally most importantly to me it not being a true sequel in both execution/gameplay and story. Guardians, Divine Beasts, the Champions (one of which gets a solid mention), malice Calmity Ganon. All of it is just forgotten even though this is the same setting as the very last game. You're done absolutely wrong in Tarrey Town. Even though you're its founder and benefactor. Nah F you. By all intents the town is canon because of the player but no one mentions this. Being forced to yet again live the essence of the story through flashbacks. Nintendo has yet to have the balls to let you play as any other character other than Link in a main line AAA Zelda title. This was their chance. Letting you play as argubly one of the most popular fleshed out iterations of the Princess and they couldn't even do that. Because the game has no linearity the story doesn't matter. You do the same exact thing in every dungeon with no difficulty. The Water Temple is just straight up a collections of puzzles in open area spaces. You do the same "remove X locks" which is basically a terminal activation thing. You view the same cutscene 4 times. Technically 5. Despite casting away the champions who are all argubly stronger than the "SAGES" Less absolutely love were programmed into their abilities. No reason they couldn't come with you. Giving Zelda a psuedo RPG element or just anything resembling a cool new twist to an expanding world that knows who Link is and wants to help him on his journey. I'm yapping but I think what hurts in TOTK was one game in my life time that I actually finished but I wasn't really happy with it. Take games where they rubbed me the wrong way and I just dropped them. Or they were bad or maybe they were exhausting so I put them on hiatus. No I finished it. And in the anti-climatic hours of the challenge I imposed - which was all shirines and all Lightroots - I felt drained and irritated and I wasn't enjoying it. It's thanks to my love of the series and the fact that this game and Nintendo games in general aren't hard. With 200 hrs invested the game was second nature so there was nothing to learn, nothing interesting, or new. I just had to power through. Is it the worst game ever? No. Not even close. But I'm definitely looking forward to more traditional AAA LOZ games.
True. We lost more than we gained with the new open air formula. Cant stomach to replay either of em. But windwaker or ocarina I can replay a million times and still have fun. I played the Oracle games for the first time recently and had 10x the amount of fun.
Maybe, though I'm not the only one who experienced old entries as "open" worlds back then and saw that as possibly a perfect direction if they could merge openness and substance. To me BOTW worked perfectly as an introduction, focused on free exploration. From there TOTK isn't exactly the refinement I expected but if they keep feeding ideas into smaller projects like Echoes of Wisdom, I'm sure we'll eventually see a perfect blend of open/linear. Proper progression is definitely possible in a mostly open setting.
It wasn't even Nintendo fans. Most voices who demanded Nintendo to make Zelda open world were from outside of the Nintendo fandom. Where I used to hear it the most were from other game developers and game journalists, who are still convinced to this day that open world, or at least non-linear gameplay is the superior form of video game, while linear progression is inherently inferior and not worth persuing if you want to be on the top. Yes, even despite the saturation we have nowadays.
this video was honestly really pretty good. just wish the editing was a bit more than just totk gameplay. i recommend you chuck gameplay of whatever you are currently talking about on screen and get some text on screen to emphasise key points and such. also at 3:00 you could chuck a side by side of survival horror vs action focused resident evil games.
@@TeamBobbo6326 you're not wrong. I love the process of outlining a script, recording, thumbnails and all that, but as soon as I sit down to edit, It's torture. I just didn't think people cared all that much. I appreciate your feedback and I think I'm gonna dedicate a day towards editing rather than burning myself out all in one go.
I want a compelling narrative in Zelda, Like Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword. I want to cry during cutscenes. I want to be reminded that a weak person can do strong things. I want to be shown that courage can lead to greatness. I don't want to hear a barebones story about the world's greatest swordsman saving the world by just naturally being great.
I like series that take the core ideas of a more linear focused story, and make it open world(to better implement those ideas). Games like elden ring, halo infinite, and Metro exodus take their individual ideas (grinding to fight bosses, sandbox world, and survivalist) and the open world makes them better. They have the budget and the idea and there we go. We saw the same with bowser’s fury and Mario Odyssey, and it just made their games better. But yea, don’t make it open world if it isn’t going to help. I feel like totk suffers from that, just “do it because you can”, rather than “do it because it’s fun”
I LOVE OPEN WORLD but most of these worlds don't feel open world, it feels like there are a few interesting things but most is just filling. Skyrim is one of my fav games, it had so much to it even though yes, there was repitition but most of the world felt fresh and rewarding rather than a few points and then filler. I would actually argue that these Open world aren't even open worlds, they're more like big dungeons. At the same time it's important to have balance - to truly appreciate open world games, you have to have linear worlds
I played Zelda since the Oot days and I think totk is a great Zelda game. I think botw/totk are solid Zelda games and a natural evolution of the series,you may call it trend chasing When I played Oot for the first time it felt like a huge open world back in the day. Wind waker really push that sense of scale and wonder that I loved too The linear games have better stories,dungeons and atmosphere and less copy and paste filler, I love em just as much. Zelda will remain on these trend so long as it sells better, but there’s still room for improvement. Having a smaller world would help. I think echoes of wisdom will give us a hint on what a smaller open exploration Zelda game can be when it’s more condensed.
nintendo doesn't like repeating functions like how oot boomerang an twilight princess wind boomerang are different ironically i hated oot on ds the touch screen replaced the start an select menus functions an the start bottun on ds an three ds had no function support wind waker world. twilight princess had great environments an npc's helping player link to the past had 10/10 exploration secrets not just korok hiding in waste bins or wanting the player to load a boulder onto a slingshot lol triforce heros idk that game was probly where retreading really started skyward sword had things like the bow idk zelda games have always had open world elements look at oot hyrule field 6:54 it was huge, an links awakening was open world zelda games being open world isn't a problem it's the scale of botw an totk there open world is 56 times bigger then oot hyrule field zelda games need to learn that the water temple in oot well some times hard to remember the way around had great idea's zelda never peaked for me the closed was oot when i was ten an getting the bow an having to still use the hookshot to get to places or light torches like in the first three dungions as kid.
Nah m8, until the remakes, Famicom Detective Club was a dead IP for over 20 years, if anything the remakes selling well enough to justify Enio being made means there's enough of an audience for Mystery Solving VNs. It's similar to how Capcom weren't even going to release Dual Destinies nor Great Ace Attorney in the west until the digital sales of DD said otherwise, saying "nobody wanted it" doesn't apply here with this specific game or genre.
@@Tenacityfromtheglass To be fair I wish Nintendo didn't tease Emio the way they did. I wish they just flat out announced it was a new FDC game rather than tease it was something entirely different. The teaser made it look like a live action horror game and it is more of an Anime style detective game. I played the game myself and there was absolutely nothing in the game that looked like the teaser.
@@Guy-cb1oh I think they were experimenting with a new form of marketing for a franchise that is fairly new for us Westerners. But it looks like it backfired.
Talks about how good Metal Gear Rising Revengance is but also in his closing statement complains about politics being shoved down your throat in games. Seriously though while I understand a lot of what you are saying, I think TotK is weird game to make this example with. Zelda has always been an action/adventure game where exploration was the key game play element and BotW/TotK are still very true to that. In fact the series started as an open world game and has had plenty of open world entries before BotW, it was just the first to have a world of that size. There are plenty of hallmarks of Zelda that these games are missing (three act structure, longer dungeons with a dungeon item, etc) but they are clearly still the same genre/style of games. TotK also was a step back towards the modern 3D style of games, with a more linear story (botw literally told you to destroy Ganon and presented you with some optional things to do on the way, while tears of the kingdom heavily pushes you to do several story missions before giving you the destroy ganondorf quest in the final section of the game) and themed dungeons with unique bosses that require puzzle solving to beat. And the direction of these games was partially in response to the criticism of Skyward Sword being too linear and that the formula had gotten old and needed a more radical update. It's not that I think all your arguments are wrong or you don't make any valid points but it's more that this video felt like you had an idea for a video and saw that TotK hate videos were becoming popular and decided you would force that idea onto TotK despite it not being the best fit in the hopes that you would catch the wave.
Played Zelda from Ocarina through most of the rest, and I can say i had no problems the main story in totk. Sure you can find different pieces at different times depending on how you play it. But I think that's part of what makes if fun. If you can't follow the story line if seems like a you thiing.
I can see what you mean, but can we please stop acting like there isn’t great stuff coming out every year? I mean this year alone we got Black Myth Wu Kong, Space Marine 2, Helldivers 2, Animal Well, Persona 3 reloaded, I can keep going. And that’s before we even get into all the great stuff we got last year, maybe TOTK isn’t your cup of tea believe me I get it. But there were all kinds of amazing single player games that came out last year Pikmin 4, Spider-Man 2, Lies of P, Mario Bros. Wonder, and Baldurs Gate 3 which is arguably one of the greatest RPGs ever made. I agree there’s a lot wrong with modern AAA game design but gaming is far from dead, and let’s not pretend that gaming in the 2000s was perfect either. Sure you could buy a game and just play but there was also a ton of shovelware money grabs, dumbass gimmicks like motion controls, season and online passes, inaccessibility or control options, region locking games and systems, and terrible ports. All I’m saying is the grass is always greener, and nostalgia can blind you to all the good we have in the present. Maybe older games are better in a lot of ways, but a lot modern games do things that we could never even imagine when we were playing on our PS2s and GameCubes
You're right. I think 2024 has been so littered with bad press that without realizing it, I was leaning into that style of content for my own channel. I do still get into the discourse here and there, but I've learned to add positive resolutions to the topics. There's so many great games that are still coming out, and I don't want to be yet another guy yelling on the internet, "Video games are dead!"
Well maybe you dont like the changes but BotW solds 33M. ToTK sold 20M. In the third place is OoT (that had been re released many times) with 14M and TP (the favorite for people that think that Zelda should be dark for some reason) is 10M . And yes, both TP and BoTW were launch tittles on the most succesful nintendo consoles. The difference is too much. If something, sales are showing what the majority of people wants to play. Just accept the reality and enjoy what we get or just play another thing. I also miss the old 2D Zelda gamed ( playing the oracle games on the switch online again) but I also enjoyed BoTW a lot.
A lot of people skipped the Wii U era and the Switch was really well marketed. All botw had to be was "open world zelda" in order to get those sales numbers. It's a great game on its own, sure, but the legacy of this series and the promise of new is what really made those sales numbers prosper. It's one of their biggest ips and it shows. Other new entries in their series also saw massive success, more than any previous titles, like Mario Kart, Super Mario, Animal Crossing, Pokémon, Smash, etc.
Sure, same attitud that made developers, studios, actors, movie directors throw their proyects to the trahs bin because people didnt like it and didnt played it or even watch it.
@@ShallBePurified but that’s not really the argument. It like eating pumpernickel and saying it not bread because you are used to eating wonder bread. You didn’t bake the bread you don’t get to have an opinion on what type of bread it is.
@@nixregis280 That analogy still doesn't work because you don't need to bake bread to know the difference between pumpernickel and wonder bread. Also, you're missing the bigger picture. I don't really care what the author's intent (or developer's intent) is, and neither do most people. We care about the experience and we determine for ourselves what type of experience it is for us. If someone who played BotW felt like it didn't give them the same type of fun that old school Zelda games did, then it's a bad "Zelda game" because it didn't give them what they wanted, like lacking dungeons or story. That's what the argument is. Not about whether or not it should count as a Zelda game. The developers do not define what the game is to the player. The player determines what the game is to themselves. The argument is not "the developer says this is white bread but I think this is wheat bread." It's "I do not like this white bread the developer made because I liked their previous wheat bread more." Aonuma's statement would be like "I don't understand why fans want wheat bread when this white bread we made is so much more modern. We will never make wheat bread again." Fans of wheat bread will be upset and lose faith in the bread franchise and move on to pancakes.
@@ShallBePurified You missed the point yet again. It’s entitled to think you can define what someone else’s creation is. No one but the creator can determine what their creation is and can be. The best you can do is not like the current version more than the previous. You don’t get to decide that it’s not a Zelda game just because you don’t like it. They are not saying it’s white bread just that it’s bread and are not limiting themselves to only white bread. If you don’t like go eat the pancake instead of complaining to chef to only make white bread when they want to see what types of breads they can make. If zero people play the newest version of Zelda it doesn’t make it not a Zelda game.
Zelda peaked with Twilight Princess but I'm the Majora's Mask type
Zelda shines when it doubles down on being strange and dark, bonus if it achieves these elements while still having an upbeat or light-hearted demeanor. ALttP through TP does this really well, and I'll stand by that.
@@Iffondrel that's a good point I agree
If only we got a game that is to "Majora's mask" what "Twilight Princess" is to "Ocarina of Time"
Skyward sword and a link between worlds
Right on all accounts. My issue with BOTW and TOTK is, well, "too much". Too many choices to make, too many places to go, too many small mechanics to master, and too many items to collect if you have any hope of actually getting stronger. I know it's an "open world" but there were so many vast stretches of empty terrain with nothing of value in them. Spreading content thin over a gigantic continent doesn't make it more fun to explore.
Ngl, honestly I think *Twilight Princess* is where the series was at its best. Sure, it was ahead of its time, like with the larger maps, more realistic graphics and a great artstyle (which honestly still holds up well to this day)
I play ww and tp most and was thinking back to the development of skyward sword and I’m pretty sure most people were excited to see the motion control sword fighting but I don’t think anyone was asking for a completely linear game. I can’t understand that decision they made. They got themselves in a mess because of it. Hence botw.
@@sandman8920
The problem is that Nintendo tried too hard to make Skyward Sword as intuitive as possible for newcomers to the franchise, which in turn is what made the game too hand-holdy.
You get stuff repeated a lot of times in a row (which is partially a blessing in disguise in case you missed something) and Faih is fucking useless
Echoes Of Wisdom to me looks like open world Zelda done right. See it's open world without removing traditional items or dungeons. That's all it takes to make me interested in the concept. So if they're still so enthralled by open world game learn from Zelda's wisdom that is wise for once.
A Link Between Worlds did that over a decade ago just fine, I don't know why people suddenly creamed themselves just because BOTW had giant empty biomes.
@@zosonte129 Never played it. All the empty biomes are extremely tedious in any game.
@@zosonte129 there was similarity in openness but they were drastically different, also ALBW was an introduction for an established audience on handheld, BOTW became a new face for the franchise launching a massively successful platform.
@@spartanq7781 Personally BOTW was great for what it aimed at during that time, empty spaces are ok to build a world if it's just on the way to great gameplay or story segments. But while BOTW was a great, simple first take, TOTK kinda showed how only adding content on top of that is limited. I agree EOW is a perfect occasion to experiment on the way to the next 3D title.
"Echoes of Wisdom" has me concerned for the franchises future. I have never felt so uncertain about a game before, on one hand if it's like "a Link Between Worlds 2" with good dungeon design and challenging combat and decent progression then I would get it but it looks to me like it's going to be a "Tears of the Kingdom 2D demake". I just want to feel like I am playing a finished game and not play testing a collection of experimental place-holders.
Unfortunately the macro scale of a game isn't something that can be shown in a trailer, if the game feels like it only has one dungeon but repeated 4-9 times that won't come across in a trailer. My biggest concern is that it will have a fun "demo" like the "Great Plateau" but that will be all the game will have to offer just stretched out to 50x it's size.
Originally I thought "Tears of the Kingdom" was just a DLC that got out of hand and they would likely fix all the issues in the next game but "Echoes of Wisdom" has me thinking that this is just what the games will be from now on. Maybe some people will still like it but even if it does turn out to be a "good game" I am starting to think that I will never see a Zelda game that has what I want ever again.
If you think TotK is hand-holdy I dunno what you make of every Zelda game from ocarina to skyward where the game zooms in on all of the puzzle elements as soon as you walk into a damn room.
@erikmclennan3934 If you're referring to the "3 more terminals to go" comment, I was talking about dungeon design feeling too shallow, not hand holdy. The older zelda games aren't perfect. The way the camera stopped you dead in your tracks to show you the most obvious things was incredibly annoying. Also, I get how some of my videos can come across as just me complaining with no resolution. That is because I'm not perfect. I still feel like I don't know how to properly write a script, to be honest.
@@Tenacityfromtheglass Please don't take any of my criticism of your opinions as me shitting on you or your videos. I'm just a strongly opinionated guy who is 38 and has been deeply immersed in the progression of video game design for a long time. I enjoy all of your videos that I watch.
I personally love shrines and have zero issue with them. The puzzles contained therein are reward in and of themselves for me, in breath and tears.
@erikmclennan3934 like you said the other day, you get value in interacting with people of differing opinions. I'm the same way because I want to have a better understanding of both sides. My first time playing Skyward Sword was on switch. I heard the original game was borderline unbearable without how much it interrupted gameplay.
Glad you mentioned Space Marine 2. I've been having a blast with that game, and it really feels like gaming back in 2007.
Yeah, I haven't been interested in any new games coming out, but space marine 2 and black myth wukong are 2 games I'm thinking of picking up soon when I have the money. Companies dont make games. Money doesn't make games. People make games and it's nice to see good people are still making games
I've been saying for years that "Evolution" in video games just means abandoning what makes you unique and what made people like you in the first place and becoming more like everything else.
Sonic Frontiers is legit just AAA Open World game with RPG elements featuring Sonic the Hedgehog.
Another example is God of War going from this cool hack n' slash to Sony movie game.
I’m just tired of open world, man…
This is so true. Botw is still one of my favorite games ever, but that was not only my first ever open world game, but it had the Zelda name slapped on it. Current Zelda isn’t the same. The current focus is barren open worlds with bad dungeons and a bad story. just hope that we eventually get another linear Zelda game again. Also I really hope Nintendo doesn’t just become Sony but with open world games, we’re already getting open world Zelda, open world Pokemon, most likely open world Mario, and even Metroid Prime 4 is heavily speculated to be open world. I just don’t want Nintendo to sacrifice what made all of their games good for the sake of chasing the open world trend
TotK's story is bad, Fs with pre-established key lore aspects, absolutely shatters all the Master Sword's reputation, unga bunga buff Dorf with little to no ambition other than "me strongest there is" uninteresting, nearly everyone forgot who you were despite this game taking place a mere 4-6 years after Wild, Rauru existing is an insult, no Fi, no breaking of the Demise curse despite it being falsely hinted being the case what with all the Skyward Sword PR this game got (I distinctly remember Skyward Sword being advertised as heavily linked to TotK somehow which, again, is misleading as on Nintendo's part), no dog petting, no hookshot spiderman swinging with the physics being suuuuch a driving factor in these newer Zelda games, no underwater exploration instead a damp dark smelly overgrown cave can't see jack, COLLOSAL missed opportunity to hitch the princess with her handsome knight in shining armor, no stakes since Zelda's sacrifice was reversed giving the story little to no agency or consequence, Link as a protagonist felt nonexistent feels like everyone else was the star of the show not the guy who's saving all their 🫏s, no Link backstory before any of this went down aka no Arryl 2 or Granny 2 aka NOT WIND WAKER, didn't make me cry like Twilight Princess, dungeons are STILL NOT dungeons (pulling a couple levers to open a door and then be treated with literally the same copy-paste cutscene at the very end with each champion? Yeah naw), sky islands hardly anything worth noting although they are pretty asf to look at, I was expecting a totally NEW revamped endgame super Saiyan master sword golden tier 4 legendary new hilt new everything but naw same design with a booboo scar and hilariously less powerful... hoverbike autobuild pales in comparison to THE Master Cycle
As a game, sure, it's leagues above BotW but BotW will never be topped as a one-in-a-lifetime *experience*
TotK was an overblown $70 DLC and I'm tired of pretending it's not. Mid.
Ok but Rauru pretty smexy tho (I agree with everything else)
@@geschnitztekiste4111 Rauru can go be a furry somewhere else
@@Giggles_iJest Fair I guess, but this is the series with anthropomorphic fish people who marry Hylians so idk
@@geschnitztekiste4111 yeah but they looked good while doing it at least. Especially Midna (imp shortstack) 🥴
A lot of it was top tier, definitly some dissapointing story stuff but the gameplay and exploration was so much fun. Definitly more than a $70 dlc
I don't hold it against any of the developers for trying their hand at open world. That being said, I couldn't agree with you more. None of us mind linear games so long as their fun, and open world games used to be incredibly immersive experiences that could absorb you for hours with a heavy emphasis on story and making most if not all quests unique. Now they're just a box checked in the genre list to hype and sell the game, but when it comes down to it, most of them are empty, souless collect-a-thons where a handful of quests are just rinse & repeats of the same 10-20 tasks from start to finish. I kinda see it the same as the modern hate for single player games. Like... From the gamers perspective not every game has to be multiplayer to be fun, and if it were to be multiplayer, most of us would prefer to be together when we play it. What they now would call couch co-op. But you know what sells more copies of a game then single player and couch co-op experiences? Online multiplayer games where everyone has to have their own system and a copy of the game. It's pure greed, and the greatest symptom of greed is lack of creativity. Hence why everything is the same copy/paste open world experience with a new skin slapped on it. At the end of the day, we're to blame for it. We happily lap up whatever they slide to us on the tray for whatever price it costs us. As long as we continue to do that, they can listen to compilations of our complaints like its a classical music playlist, laughing all the way to the bank.
A Link to the Past and Link Between Worlds are open worls and keep their identity. A Link to the Past is the game that hooked me with the Zelda franchise. Great video BTW.
Ngl After all was said and done I think TOTK failed at not only being a good Zelda game. I think it failed at being a good sequel to its previous game.
I think BOTW was okay. Its not a Zelda game. Sorry. Its not. But for the sake of it it was a bold new direction that apparently paid off. It paid off so well its the franchise's first intentional sequel. Like this game was made with the express purpose of following up the last game.
The reason BOTW succeeded is the opposite of what I think Nintendo wanted which is: It's new innovative fun. They found and really good itch to scratch and it showed with the marginal but noticeable amount of BOTW clones appearing. So how does Nintendo expand on their innovative formula.
- A world that's infinitely bigger than its predecessor. More empty. Boring. The Depths is counter intuitive to BOTW's game play loop which is: "Oooh what's that over there" and leaving the beaten or intended path to get lost in other things. Can't really do that in pitch black and the theme of fear of the unknown.
- Hyrule Builders with admittingly a cool idea but not very Zelda-esque. Zonai devices are a blessing a curse. For one hand I hate the TOTK gameplay loop so I appreciated just getting on a machine and skipping bullshit. Which is what the open world was anyways. In other ways you are so limited without exploiting glitches and parts hunting. Only 20 units to build with. Machines with moving parts can only go in one direction such as those with wheels which made operating "cars" feel clunky and not very fun.
- And finally most importantly to me it not being a true sequel in both execution/gameplay and story. Guardians, Divine Beasts, the Champions (one of which gets a solid mention), malice Calmity Ganon. All of it is just forgotten even though this is the same setting as the very last game.
You're done absolutely wrong in Tarrey Town. Even though you're its founder and benefactor. Nah F you. By all intents the town is canon because of the player but no one mentions this.
Being forced to yet again live the essence of the story through flashbacks. Nintendo has yet to have the balls to let you play as any other character other than Link in a main line AAA Zelda title. This was their chance. Letting you play as argubly one of the most popular fleshed out iterations of the Princess and they couldn't even do that.
Because the game has no linearity the story doesn't matter. You do the same exact thing in every dungeon with no difficulty. The Water Temple is just straight up a collections of puzzles in open area spaces. You do the same "remove X locks" which is basically a terminal activation thing. You view the same cutscene 4 times. Technically 5. Despite casting away the champions who are all argubly stronger than the "SAGES" Less absolutely love were programmed into their abilities. No reason they couldn't come with you. Giving Zelda a psuedo RPG element or just anything resembling a cool new twist to an expanding world that knows who Link is and wants to help him on his journey.
I'm yapping but I think what hurts in TOTK was one game in my life time that I actually finished but I wasn't really happy with it. Take games where they rubbed me the wrong way and I just dropped them. Or they were bad or maybe they were exhausting so I put them on hiatus. No I finished it. And in the anti-climatic hours of the challenge I imposed - which was all shirines and all Lightroots - I felt drained and irritated and I wasn't enjoying it. It's thanks to my love of the series and the fact that this game and Nintendo games in general aren't hard. With 200 hrs invested the game was second nature so there was nothing to learn, nothing interesting, or new. I just had to power through.
Is it the worst game ever? No. Not even close. But I'm definitely looking forward to more traditional AAA LOZ games.
I think many Nintendo fans justify the Zelda change simply because they wanted a Nintendo open world.
True. We lost more than we gained with the new open air formula. Cant stomach to replay either of em. But windwaker or ocarina I can replay a million times and still have fun. I played the Oracle games for the first time recently and had 10x the amount of fun.
they already said it was because of skyrim which launched a week after skyward sword
Maybe, though I'm not the only one who experienced old entries as "open" worlds back then and saw that as possibly a perfect direction if they could merge openness and substance. To me BOTW worked perfectly as an introduction, focused on free exploration. From there TOTK isn't exactly the refinement I expected but if they keep feeding ideas into smaller projects like Echoes of Wisdom, I'm sure we'll eventually see a perfect blend of open/linear. Proper progression is definitely possible in a mostly open setting.
It wasn't even Nintendo fans. Most voices who demanded Nintendo to make Zelda open world were from outside of the Nintendo fandom. Where I used to hear it the most were from other game developers and game journalists, who are still convinced to this day that open world, or at least non-linear gameplay is the superior form of video game, while linear progression is inherently inferior and not worth persuing if you want to be on the top. Yes, even despite the saturation we have nowadays.
@@XanderVJ why would we try to pin something down on a single category? fans obviously want to see different things
this video was honestly really pretty good. just wish the editing was a bit more than just totk gameplay. i recommend you chuck gameplay of whatever you are currently talking about on screen and get some text on screen to emphasise key points and such. also at 3:00 you could chuck a side by side of survival horror vs action focused resident evil games.
@@TeamBobbo6326 you're not wrong. I love the process of outlining a script, recording, thumbnails and all that, but as soon as I sit down to edit, It's torture. I just didn't think people cared all that much. I appreciate your feedback and I think I'm gonna dedicate a day towards editing rather than burning myself out all in one go.
@@Tenacityfromtheglass sounds good to me.
Tears of kingdom is ass
You took the words right out of my mouth
I want a compelling narrative in Zelda, Like Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword. I want to cry during cutscenes. I want to be reminded that a weak person can do strong things. I want to be shown that courage can lead to greatness. I don't want to hear a barebones story about the world's greatest swordsman saving the world by just naturally being great.
Whole heartedly agree
Meanwhile Final Fantasy are neither good games nor real Final Fantasy games after 12.
I really like ff12, but tbh, it's not a real Final Fantasy game. I say Final Fantasy stopped at ff10
I really like XIII, but I agree. It’s a shame to see how far they’ve gone from the formula
Only beat FFXVI, still don’t get the hype. Gonna just emulate 6-12
I like series that take the core ideas of a more linear focused story, and make it open world(to better implement those ideas).
Games like elden ring, halo infinite, and Metro exodus take their individual ideas (grinding to fight bosses, sandbox world, and survivalist) and the open world makes them better. They have the budget and the idea and there we go. We saw the same with bowser’s fury and Mario Odyssey, and it just made their games better.
But yea, don’t make it open world if it isn’t going to help. I feel like totk suffers from that, just “do it because you can”, rather than “do it because it’s fun”
I LOVE OPEN WORLD but most of these worlds don't feel open world, it feels like there are a few interesting things but most is just filling.
Skyrim is one of my fav games, it had so much to it even though yes, there was repitition but most of the world felt fresh and rewarding rather than a few points and then filler.
I would actually argue that these Open world aren't even open worlds, they're more like big dungeons.
At the same time it's important to have balance - to truly appreciate open world games, you have to have linear worlds
I played Zelda since the Oot days and I think totk is a great Zelda game.
I think botw/totk are solid Zelda games and a natural evolution of the series,you may call it trend chasing
When I played Oot for the first time it felt like a huge open world back in the day.
Wind waker really push that sense of scale and wonder that I loved too
The linear games have better stories,dungeons and atmosphere and less copy and paste filler, I love em just as much.
Zelda will remain on these trend so long as it sells better, but there’s still room for improvement.
Having a smaller world would help.
I think echoes of wisdom will give us a hint on what a smaller open exploration Zelda game can be when it’s more condensed.
And Oot wasn't very Zelda, which always had a lot of action and combat.
nintendo doesn't like repeating functions like how oot boomerang an twilight princess wind boomerang are different
ironically
i hated oot on ds the touch screen replaced the start an select menus functions
an the start bottun on ds an three ds had no function support
wind waker world.
twilight princess had great environments an npc's helping player
link to the past had 10/10 exploration secrets not just korok hiding in waste bins or wanting the player to load a boulder onto a slingshot lol
triforce heros idk that game was probly where retreading really started
skyward sword had things like the bow idk
zelda games have always had open world elements look at oot hyrule field 6:54 it was huge, an links awakening was open world
zelda games being open world isn't a problem it's the scale of botw an totk there open world is 56 times bigger then oot hyrule field
zelda games need to learn that the water temple in oot well some times hard to remember the way around had great idea's
zelda never peaked for me the closed was oot when i was ten an getting the bow an having to still use the hookshot to get to places or light torches like in the first three dungions as kid.
Nah m8, until the remakes, Famicom Detective Club was a dead IP for over 20 years, if anything the remakes selling well enough to justify Enio being made means there's enough of an audience for Mystery Solving VNs. It's similar to how Capcom weren't even going to release Dual Destinies nor Great Ace Attorney in the west until the digital sales of DD said otherwise, saying "nobody wanted it" doesn't apply here with this specific game or genre.
Plenty of People wanted a new FDC game.
@Guy-cb1oh you're not wrong. I more or less meant to say the majority of people were disappointed that it wasn't a new IP.
@@Tenacityfromtheglass To be fair I wish Nintendo didn't tease Emio the way they did. I wish they just flat out announced it was a new FDC game rather than tease it was something entirely different. The teaser made it look like a live action horror game and it is more of an Anime style detective game. I played the game myself and there was absolutely nothing in the game that looked like the teaser.
@@Guy-cb1oh I think they were experimenting with a new form of marketing for a franchise that is fairly new for us Westerners. But it looks like it backfired.
@@Tenacityfromtheglass After all the Nintendo fans constantly complain about Nintendo not bringing back old franchises? Dumb point
Talks about how good Metal Gear Rising Revengance is but also in his closing statement complains about politics being shoved down your throat in games.
Seriously though while I understand a lot of what you are saying, I think TotK is weird game to make this example with. Zelda has always been an action/adventure game where exploration was the key game play element and BotW/TotK are still very true to that. In fact the series started as an open world game and has had plenty of open world entries before BotW, it was just the first to have a world of that size. There are plenty of hallmarks of Zelda that these games are missing (three act structure, longer dungeons with a dungeon item, etc) but they are clearly still the same genre/style of games.
TotK also was a step back towards the modern 3D style of games, with a more linear story (botw literally told you to destroy Ganon and presented you with some optional things to do on the way, while tears of the kingdom heavily pushes you to do several story missions before giving you the destroy ganondorf quest in the final section of the game) and themed dungeons with unique bosses that require puzzle solving to beat.
And the direction of these games was partially in response to the criticism of Skyward Sword being too linear and that the formula had gotten old and needed a more radical update.
It's not that I think all your arguments are wrong or you don't make any valid points but it's more that this video felt like you had an idea for a video and saw that TotK hate videos were becoming popular and decided you would force that idea onto TotK despite it not being the best fit in the hopes that you would catch the wave.
Played Zelda from Ocarina through most of the rest, and I can say i had no problems the main story in totk. Sure you can find different pieces at different times depending on how you play it. But I think that's part of what makes if fun. If you can't follow the story line if seems like a you thiing.
I can see what you mean, but can we please stop acting like there isn’t great stuff coming out every year? I mean this year alone we got Black Myth Wu Kong, Space Marine 2, Helldivers 2, Animal Well, Persona 3 reloaded, I can keep going. And that’s before we even get into all the great stuff we got last year, maybe TOTK isn’t your cup of tea believe me I get it. But there were all kinds of amazing single player games that came out last year Pikmin 4, Spider-Man 2, Lies of P, Mario Bros. Wonder, and Baldurs Gate 3 which is arguably one of the greatest RPGs ever made. I agree there’s a lot wrong with modern AAA game design but gaming is far from dead, and let’s not pretend that gaming in the 2000s was perfect either. Sure you could buy a game and just play but there was also a ton of shovelware money grabs, dumbass gimmicks like motion controls, season and online passes, inaccessibility or control options, region locking games and systems, and terrible ports. All I’m saying is the grass is always greener, and nostalgia can blind you to all the good we have in the present. Maybe older games are better in a lot of ways, but a lot modern games do things that we could never even imagine when we were playing on our PS2s and GameCubes
You're right. I think 2024 has been so littered with bad press that without realizing it, I was leaning into that style of content for my own channel. I do still get into the discourse here and there, but I've learned to add positive resolutions to the topics. There's so many great games that are still coming out, and I don't want to be yet another guy yelling on the internet, "Video games are dead!"
Most modern games are open world now, it's why I say open world is overrated.
Well maybe you dont like the changes but BotW solds 33M. ToTK sold 20M. In the third place is OoT (that had been re released many times) with 14M and TP (the favorite for people that think that Zelda should be dark for some reason) is 10M . And yes, both TP and BoTW were launch tittles on the most succesful nintendo consoles. The difference is too much. If something, sales are showing what the majority of people wants to play. Just accept the reality and enjoy what we get or just play another thing. I also miss the old 2D Zelda gamed ( playing the oracle games on the switch online again) but I also enjoyed BoTW a lot.
A lot of people skipped the Wii U era and the Switch was really well marketed. All botw had to be was "open world zelda" in order to get those sales numbers. It's a great game on its own, sure, but the legacy of this series and the promise of new is what really made those sales numbers prosper. It's one of their biggest ips and it shows. Other new entries in their series also saw massive success, more than any previous titles, like Mario Kart, Super Mario, Animal Crossing, Pokémon, Smash, etc.
If you don't like it don't play it!😢
Always a pretty pointless reply
Which is why I won't replay TotK ever again. Which is a first for me with a main line Zelda game.
Sure, same attitud that made developers, studios, actors, movie directors throw their proyects to the trahs bin because people didnt like it and didnt played it or even watch it.
I had to play and waste my time first, before I can complain about it. That' the real issue here :D
Who are any one to define what a game is , the creator decides that. If you have a problem making your own game.
"Make your own game" is a stupid argument. You don't need to know how to bake bread to know what bad bread tastes like.
@@ShallBePurified but that’s not really the argument. It like eating pumpernickel and saying it not bread because you are used to eating wonder bread. You didn’t bake the bread you don’t get to have an opinion on what type of bread it is.
@@nixregis280 That analogy still doesn't work because you don't need to bake bread to know the difference between pumpernickel and wonder bread.
Also, you're missing the bigger picture. I don't really care what the author's intent (or developer's intent) is, and neither do most people. We care about the experience and we determine for ourselves what type of experience it is for us. If someone who played BotW felt like it didn't give them the same type of fun that old school Zelda games did, then it's a bad "Zelda game" because it didn't give them what they wanted, like lacking dungeons or story. That's what the argument is. Not about whether or not it should count as a Zelda game. The developers do not define what the game is to the player. The player determines what the game is to themselves.
The argument is not "the developer says this is white bread but I think this is wheat bread." It's "I do not like this white bread the developer made because I liked their previous wheat bread more." Aonuma's statement would be like "I don't understand why fans want wheat bread when this white bread we made is so much more modern. We will never make wheat bread again." Fans of wheat bread will be upset and lose faith in the bread franchise and move on to pancakes.
@@ShallBePurified You missed the point yet again. It’s entitled to think you can define what someone else’s creation is. No one but the creator can determine what their creation is and can be. The best you can do is not like the current version more than the previous. You don’t get to decide that it’s not a Zelda game just because you don’t like it. They are not saying it’s white bread just that it’s bread and are not limiting themselves to only white bread. If you don’t like go eat the pancake instead of complaining to chef to only make white bread when they want to see what types of breads they can make. If zero people play the newest version of Zelda it doesn’t make it not a Zelda game.
8 mins of my life wasted