Bremont, the Media, Bias and Tribalism
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- Опубліковано 25 лип 2024
- #NSOW
For your awareness some things about me and the channel.
I'm an engineer who's into human behavior, loves the ideas behind art and sees watches as a mix of science, craft, art, business, history, technology, philosophy, and psychology. As a result, my videos cover all that ground. (Oh, and I overthink everything).
In my opinion a $15 Casio or a $50 G-Shock are probably the only real tool watches and pretty much everything else is jewelry. So as we are talking about jewelry I think style is substance and I tend to believe history, brand, style, design, execution, and aesthetics are more important than specs. A dull design with a good movement is a dull watch, and an exciting design with an average movement is an exciting watch.
To be clear, I hate the expression "it's just a watch". If you got this far, watches matter to you and represent a bridge between us - dismissing them as unimportant seems wrong and disrespectful. That doesn't mean we can't and don't have fun, it just means we should not be totally mindless of others.
I'm a watch collector and curator - I like my collections to have a theme. My collection has several themes:
1. Vintage Alpina watches
2. Travel watches (GMT. UTC, world timers, home times, dual times)
3. Seiko Prospex dive watches
4. Breitling chronographs
5. Stuff I just really like.
I don't do wrist checks so if you want to see what I'm wearing, my collection, and other random bits of my life check out my Instagram:
@not.so.obvious.watches / not.so.obvious.watches
You can email me at not.so.obvious.watches@gmail.com
virtually all the music you'll hear on my channel I get from BenSound - www.bensound.com/
also, my stock images and videos tend to come from either snappa (snappa.com/app) or pexels (www.pexels.com/) - Навчання та стиль
The only issue I have ever really had with Bremont is their pricing. If they were priced maybe 25% less, they would have had a lot more traction.
Thorough and succinct as usual. As the owner of two Bremont special editions and having owned two Christoper Wards and sold them on, I don't see the conflict between the brands, they are totally different. A loss of any brand in the market is a tragedy for all watch enthusiasts.
I disagree. Some watch brands could go extinct never to be missed.
"They don't want accuracy, what they want is drama." I'm gonna steal that.
The problem with the new launch in my opnion is largely the generic design language of the new watches. I own an s500 which I love and its a very distinct watch, whereas the new watches look like clones of existing models(I'm thinking yema, breitling bracelet, panerai cusion case). I think greater focus should have been put towards lowering the pricepoint of existing designs as price to value was always most peoples hold up with the brand.
Pete - another superb video. I do enjoy listening to your thoughts… I was very excited to see what was in store from Bremont at Watches and Wonders in Geneva. Have shared my thoughts in a short video. Keep up the good work ! And thank you.
As a Brit who wants to see British Watchmaking thrive I weirdly don’t really care for either Bremont or Christopher Ward.
I first came upon Bremont on a trip to London many years ago. I went to the Watch Gallery in Selfridges and was gazing at all of the luxury Watches. I got chatting with a sales assistant who was stood behind a display counter and in that counter i noticed a some Watches with coloured rings around the cases. I asked about the Watches and the Sales assistant pulled them out of the counter and showed them to me. He continued to show me the one with the orange ring around the case. It was the Bremont MB2. He told me how the watch had been tested by the Martin Baker company in their Ejector Seats! As a Military Watch fan I was fascinated by this. I couldn’t believe what I was being told. He showed me one with green paint around the case and mentioned that it was a limited edition for Selfridges and continued to tell me how the brand made Aviation Watches because both of the owners flew planes as a hobby. I was sold on these Watches immediately and started to lust after the green limited edition model instantly. I thought that it was such a cool tool Watch and would suit me down to the ground. However, I didn’t have the money to buy it so I never got one in the end, although I remain a fan of the MB2 Watch.
I didn’t really follow the brand much after that as I saw them trying to carve out a very British identity and found their later designs very dull as they made plain Pilots themed Watches as well as well as collaborations with Jaguar and and a few others that never peaked my interest. I found them a bit overpriced too so never got round to buying that MB2.
I feel sad for the position they are in now. It feels that that they have totally binned that brand identity they once had with the rebrand. The logo looks awful! A cross between the NATO emblem and the Stone Island clothing brand logo. I saw a video about it and it is meant to be a mixture of things including a propeller and the Union Jack flag. It’s a mess. Their Terra-Nova field Watch model looks like an old Hamilton design that has been nicked and rebooted and I never even knew about their Dive Watch. I would never wish any ill on any brand and didn’t realise that Bremont were in financial trouble until you showed us the proof. I don’t think they’re going in the right direction with these generic “Land, Sea and Air” designs. They should have tried to fix what was wrong and lowered their prices but, hey, I’m not a highly experienced Executive Manager. He’s probably doing what he thinks is right.
As another British brand Christopher Ward never grabbed me. They seemed to start off making ‘Homagesque’ offerings which didn’t really jump out at me. They definitely have a ‘cult’ like following though and their more recent offerings have proved very popular with them coming up with original offerings such as the Bel Canto. Good to see a British brand blooming but, they’re still not for me.
I’m not a member of any Forums or Facebook groups but, have seen comments about the ‘New’ Bremont in WhatsApp and Discord groups I’m in. Most haven’t been positive but, I haven’t seen any drama comments wishing to ‘dance on their grave’. As I said I wouldn’t wish the demise upon any brand as it gives less for us to choose from in the hobby.
I’ve never seen a chart like that before Pete. Premium, Prestige, Prosumer and Luxury seem like very interesting ways to analyse the Watch market. I look forward to you delving deeper into these groups.
Very valid topic in this video Pete. That’s why your channel stands above the rest. Can’t wait until the next instalment (does that mean I’m into drama? 🤔). ✊
ABlogToWatch didn’t hold back their opinion
One of the few watch publications who are still independently minded. I love their podcast.
I was actually shocked at their honesty, I am so unaccustomed to seeing it. But they got a new reader from it.
I live near Henley….I know a couple of the staff. The feeling is that some are looking to leave before they’re pushed or have no choice. Who knows?
I have largely missed all this. If as it appears Bremont are in financial trouble, and investors have squeezed the English Brother's out of the business then it's a sad day for the brand and the British watch industry.
Simply Bremont are the English Brother's. Without the brothers, Bremont is just another watch company without a soul.
The new Bremont logo looks like the Nato logo. Which means all their watches should now be released in nato straps.
What is the evidence that CW & or the media are gloating over the changes @ Bremont ?
To improve a business, you first identify the positives and negatives. The two biggest positives were the customer service and the logo. The new management have already f**ked up the logo, so they're off to a good start.......
The biggest thing the new leadership needed to do was create some watches with a bit more personality. They f**ked up in that department, too. Things are looking great for Bremont.......
I don’t personally understand the celebration of a group of people about a perceived failure of a brand.
I would say I don’t understand the direction that the new leadership of Bremont have taken - but I wouldn’t say it’s a failure (as yet)
Just very perplexing
And the logo is a little weird
Compass with a hidden propeller 🤷♂️
I hope they find their stride as they have made some cool watches - even if I have never owned one
“Commentariat” -good word. I find the Terra Nova line appealing. I’m new to watches & interested to read opinions on whether people think worth the price. Land, sea & air seem like good way to divide their collections & logical to ditch the propeller logo if they want to grow.
I have to say I’ve zero interest in Bremont as a brand, I wouldn’t have watched this video had it been from anyone else but also I sensed a bit of drama so I’m here for that. What I’d say about forums is they don’t represent most folk, they are a bunch of fanatics, and are most probably best ignored.
I'm not in a camp. I am one of the admins for the biggest CW facebook group though. I just did a search of our page and there were only a handful of posts about Bremont outside of the usual wrist shot posts. Mostly relief for a logo change discussion that WASN'T focused of Christopher Ward! Even if most of Bremont's offerings weren't my cup of tea - I'd never wish ill. And I didn't see that in the comments in the group save one or two. They are two very different watch brands and there is room for both in this crazy hobby!
i forgot about the brand until i saw your video, i took a look at their website again on a new browser tab, it was a brand that used to charm me, but they look really bad now.
Personally I don’t take part in the watch forums that focus on toxicity and tribalism. I don’t want to see Bremont fail but at the same time I don’t like the direction they are taking with their branding. I sincerely hope they can turn this around but I don’t think they will.
Interesting 👍 . I've visited the Bremont factory and seen all the hugely expensive machines they use to make watch parts in the UK and that makes me want to see them succeed. Christopher Ward make great watches, but let's face it, they are mostly made in China and then assembled with an off the shelf Swiss movement in Switzerland so they can write Swiss made on the dial. There should be room for both business models. If I win the lottery, I will be buying a Bremont, but I do hope it will still have the propellor logo!
Accuracy vs drama. Great distinction.
I had never been aware of Bremont and Ch Ward fan clubs getting at each other’s throat. Me being French, I guess
This anyway doesn’t make any sense. Bremont is (was maybe ?) a Tudor wannabe. Christopher Ward is a bigger and more British Formex.
I may say this new « explorerey » Bremont is not an attractive watch and the new logo has serious Aliexpress brand vibes. Quite a disappointment.
Never saw that chart before. It makes a lot of sense. What brands in the wotch world would you classify as prosumer and prestige. I cant differentiate those from the luxury category
IF I was going to root for the downfall of a brand it certainly wouldn’t be Bremont. How often are they even mentioned. Why would they bother anyone?
The big six brands, however, are talked about ad nauseam. It can get annoying so I scroll past or don’t read the article or watch the video. Shrug.
Pete you are always interesting.. For me I just want to know if the watch is what I like and keeps good time ideally -0/+4 seconds a day is what I really prefer on top of it looks good.. anyway good and interesting video.
I think Bremont is dead too, I take no pleasure in that as a fan who owns several of their watches.
The rebranding has not only failed to inspire new fans, they have alienated their loyal fan base.
Unless they do a major backtrack and undo most of the brand changes I think the brand is finished.
The Christopher Ward fans may be celebrating but Bremont fans are mourning.
Great analysis.
Watches that are sub £4k are typically a source and brand operation. That's not taking anything away from them, the bracelet choices they make, the movement choices etc all make the blend unique. The branding is what makes them unique, and the narratives are what you buy into or not. I think the rebranding of Bremont, instigated no doubt by the venture capitalists and the new CEO, is an example of a branding agency not understanding the heritage of the brand, or deciding that the Britishness hampers growth. So they created something that won't offend, but equally has no distinctive qualities either. It takes Meh to a whole new level.
I have always been somewhat shocked by the hate that Bremont receive. I have had an MB2 Orange for 11 years and it has been a great timekeeper, very robust, and when I got it serviced a couple of years ago, apart from the face, back and movement, I effectively got a new watch. They are not my favourite brand, but I have enjoyed owning it as much as I have Submariners or Planet Oceans. The nearest rival to the MB2 has been the IWC pilots watches, and I think the Bremont is as good. They were also ETA based at a higher price point.
Where Bremont has a chance is that they don't have to be an enthusiast brand. Hublot seems widely disliked in the watch community. but still sells to regular punters . I think the same could apply to Bremont. Ultimately, why put your hate on a particular brand, just don't buy it if you don't like it.
I don’t think Bremont is dead. Bremont still makes good watches. I am not keen on the new logo and the new Terra Nova Field watches design. But actually some people whom have seen the new design in the flesh say they are a lot nicer than on the advertising blurb . So I will wait until I actually see them. I have a Bremont S301 Supermarine and I love it. Its quality compared to CW overall is much better , but it’s what you pay for. Both brands can survive alongside each other . CW are clever at sales & outsourcing but they target 1 area of market. Bremont will do some outsourcing too but are much more in-house and use superior materials overall hence the price point .
I don’t think watch fans owe anything to Bremont. Not our money, not our admiration, and not our affection. I’ve never been a fan, but I respected that they were trying to bring back British watch manufacturing. But if some of us think their new direction sucks and we find their new model line repellent, there’s nothing wrong with saying that.
Very interesting video. I think the advent of the internet and social media and its rapid growth and integration into every day life wether we like it or not, is very problematic as our brains haven't had the chance to mature and evolve to take this massive impact, particularly if you are older and not used to spending hours on end on it. Watch enthusiasts get caught up in these seething cauldrons of debate, emotions run high and the drama you talked about ensues. Before we know it ,it gets really angsty and personal. So my take is just to keep my opinions to myself if they are possibly contentious
Hi Pete, interesting topic, however not really my thing. For me product's speak for themselves, and then I consider the price and availability in Canada then servicing and the marketing message. I have not seen either in Canada. I would like to handle a product before passing judgment.
Regards,
Starlight
Just on that new logo - it would be much better withiut the poorly executed icon. It cheapens it somehow.....plus those thin lines will just not work well at smaller scale... which probably explains why its actually too big on the dial.
Best take I've heard so far.
I am deeply saddened at developments. Bremont self segregated their own market. They kind of differentiated themselves, separating from the main market with their apparently loyal ex-military customer base. As things gradually deteriorated, this separation became larger. They ended up with a strange range of watches, that didn't form a coherent offering. And I guess they ended up, not being able to change themselves out of this decline, as the cash situation became tighter.
Not that I’ve ever been a fan of the brand but I’m disappointed in the way the English brothers seem to have abandoned Bremont and happily see it sink under the new CEO.
It always felt like a tuff nut to crack for Bremont. Watch Archie’s hot take re: Adrians review of Bremont… He hits the nail on the head and drops the mic 4 years ago! 👌🏼🤣🤣🤣
I'm a fan of the watch hobby I also want to celebrate in a watch company potentially going under . So there are less potential watches to admire enjoy and yes criticize if warranted. Yep makes perfect sense to me 🤷♀️
I already posted a question but that chart really got into my head so I have another one. I assume Rolex is in the prestige category. I wonder where Omega, Breitling, Tag, IWC and the other Rolex priced brands fall, and where they would like to be. Also, for the top end Swatch brands like Breguet, Blancpain even Glashute Original, is the reason they are failing to grow sales because they are in the wrong category, or they are marketing for a wrong category? Hard for me to determing which goes into luxury and which is into prosumer, but I feel like breguet and blancpain want to get into luxury but the market treats them as prsumer brands...
working on that video right now.
Bremont watches don't speak to me, except for their lugs. Those are nice.
But I'm far from wishing them die. I do believe they can do better if they do better. It's the same with Prim (Elton). Many of their watches are unappealing to me, but if they pick themselves up, everyone and their dog will drool after them.
For me this all comes down to the modern day fanboi phenomenon; those that make a commercial brand part of their personal monochrome identity; their chosen brand is the only good one, competitor brands are all bad. It’s black and white, no shades of grey are allowed. Deviation and dissent from the fanboi’s view is not tolerated. The hatred for those that do is visceral.
And yes you see it in all types if hobby/collection types. As you said Pete, tribalism in photography brands is a stark example. In watches you see it in YT review video comments comprising on the one hand gushing delight fawning over the brand signposted by phrases like “killing it”, “knocking it out [of] the park”, that this or that is “awesome” or “insane” and how they’re definitely going to “pick one up” or have done so already and it’s better than anything anywhere in the whole universe. Negative reactions often have an equally hyperbolic, verging on violent, language, with the caps lock on and/or corresponding emojis.
It’s not healthy to make a brand part of your being, part of your self-worth, to die on the hill for your brand, to decry other brands that become literally hated. After all are talking about functionally redundant lumps of stainless steel strapped to our wrists.
Many brands themselves are at fault pushing the ‘story’, ‘history’, the ‘brand identity’ narrative most of which is almost always nothing more than marketing bs designed to justify the SRPs. Even brands like CW that eschew traditional watch marketing and distribution channels are actually employing that in itself as a marketing strategy and identity umbrella that they want their buyers to shelter under and identify with.
Now I’m rambling on too, so I’ll end it there!
Pete, I think you would enjoy Revolt of the Masses by Jose Ortega y Gasset
Maybe people just don't like Bremont. I've never been that impressed with them. For me there's will I spend X for Y. A different question is do I preceive that Y is worth X. I'm not going to by a Ford GT40 for a quarter mill. So, I really don't need to spend a lot of time considering whether it's worth that quarter mill. Likewise, Bremont has never really worked for me, so I never have to deal with whether I would spend X on one.
The way I see it there is a whole other way to look at this that perhaps some are missing: what if people are disappointed because Bremont is failing? As in they want them to succeed? I mean who doesn't want a good watch brand that brings us new options but instead wants to 'celebrate' one that failed, one that brings them nothing? Probably not many because its illogical. And to participate in "the killing of a brand", what I think you meant to say was the "su*cide of a brand". Or is a successful brand just something that makes watches irrespective of if anyone likes or wants them? Its a quid-pro-quo not a one-way street and Bremont made these changes all on their own. No one forced them. Honestly I don't get this take at all.
I like the new designs. But it's all subjective of course.
I always saw that company as a Hublot like entity. The pitch the English nationalist influencers had for the high price tag of the product was “you’re joining them on their journey” (by paying for the first class ticket?). Not surprising expanding far from England and over extending themselves caught up with them.
I never understood how bremont could be profitable. That crazy headquarters ….
While I’m at best lukewarm for the brand, I don’t get the disdain for Bremont.
User forums are like that. It’s been that way since dial-up bulletin boards. And to a lesser extent, comment sections on videos are the same: When you let other people actively participate in the flavour of your product, you will get them trying to control the narrative, first by controlling the dominant conversation of the comments, and next, if they can control you, the publisher, they will. Forums, comments, fan groups, etc., are just echo chambers for pseudo-popular discourse, but they will never be grounded in reality.
I know that you have participated and/or gave support for Watchcrunch, and I just think it’s incredibly naive of Max to think that open discussion while overseeing people’s behaviour is ever going to work out in the long wrong.
The Swiss connection (Italian guy now in charge but Swiss watch industry figure) vs the British nationalists?
Pete, perhaps your English bias is preventing you from seeing the source of WIS frustration. Very prominent UA-camrs were bought and paid for by Bremont and sold that brand as if it were the second coming for English watchmaking. The more easily influenced got sucked in on what effectively is a scam. The brand is basically English Shinola.
Bremont spends too much time trying to build some sort of artificial theme and not enough time on building superb watches - the theme gimmick is a failure in the long run