Unitas 6497 Low Amplitude performance problem Seagull ST36 ST3600 Watch Repair Lesson
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- Опубліковано 3 жов 2024
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When working with this movement for illustrating the lessons in my Watch Repair Course, I have perhaps stripped it down and re-assembled it some 5 or 10 times in the past month.
The last time I did this was during the Live stream and once it was assembled the watch gave a very low amplitude. I did not show this in the stream as it was then past 10pm and I had dinner waiting for me, but when I came back to the movement the following morning, sure enough it was running with very poor performance.
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Fascinating! Such a small ‘adjustment’ to the plate below the balance cock, altering its position & it’s impact upon end-shake of the balance staff is the difference between the movement running well & running with a fraction of the amplitude it should have. Not being a watchmaker, almost everything you show is new to me & I really your content & very much enjoy learning about it all. Thank you Mark.
Hi Mark. I watched this a few months ago and low and behold, while I was cleaning and servicing my Seagull version of the movement, I had the exact same issue when I put it back together. At first I suspected a speck of dirt in the balance jewels, but it wasn't that. Mine did not have the little dig in the metal under the balance bridge that yours did, but when I made one myself and raised the balance bridge a touch, thereby incresing the endshake, the problem vanished instantly. Thanks for that. I would never ever have come to that tactic without having seen your excellent video. The watch has maintained time within 10 seconds for a week. Fantastic accuracy for a £30 movement.
Your voice is soooo calm and relaxing....and with this background new age music....I think I may have lost conciousness briefly ; -)
it would be better if the narrator spoke English "wiv", "wever" "oi fout"
@@briancarruthers1738 If he was giving lessons in pronunciation, maybe; however, this is a watch repair channel. If you are so concerned about 'proper' English, I suggest you begin your sentences with a capital letter and pay closer attention to your punctuation.
@@Knapweed Also he's not mispronouncing anything
This is his local accent, he is literally saying 'with' correctly, in his local accent
Yup, watchmaking ASMR XD
This is an amazing piece of “insider” know how. I’ve found all of your videos informative but this one is a gem
Was that a pun 🧐
Was that a pun 🧐
Being unaware of this will drive a tinkerer like me crazy! Thanks for the valuable information. Cheers!
Seen many of these but didn't realise until you point out. Good lecture.
Thanks Mark , I'm having the same problem, I've tried smimming , like I've found in some of the Russian watches !. Thank you again Sir. and blessings to you and all your loved ones!.
Master is somebody that make difficult things look simple
I don't have that problem but i always enjoy watching your videos and learning something new.
Manufacturing bad practice gotcha's... Thanks for pointing this out Mark.. Great videos by the way.
good
My pleasure
Hi Mark. Sou brasileiro [Brasil] Sou iniciante e adoro a profissao. voçe poderia me ajudar indicando bons livros?(books)
Hi Mark, I am doing your online course which is really good. This video is great as I have the exact same problem. I will try your solution. Thank you.
I will try this absolutely because I have the exact same problem. Thank-you so much!
Wow! What a detective. So informative and interesting 👏👏👏👏
Thanks for your help Mark. I have repaired one of my watches that kept stopping when the screw was tightened on the balance. I could see that this kind of adjustment for end shake had been made in the past. I carefully raised the dent made before and was able to tighten the screw and the watch runs as it should with plenty of amplitude. Thanks for your help 👍
Very clever troubleshooting and fix. In Italy we say “you know one trick more than the devil”!
Ahhh gotta love these movements. I've seen some new movements behaving like this or worse and they were never dismantled. just from the factory running very poorly. Your videos are great. And the new camera is amazing!!
Thank you :)
I noticed that too! I love these movements, I don't care. I love these tricks
Wow! That was some interesting detective work. Thanks for sharing 👍
Thanks Mark, Excellent video in your illustration and explanation. I had no idea until you pointed this out. Thank you again so very much!
Thanks Mark. Figured I should sign up for the course and start learning properly than by trial and error. Looking forward to it.
man I see your comments on so many channels I have stumbled across, it's weird.
William Savory that's the worst pick up line ever! Sorry dude, you not my type, happily married. Don't I've up though,plenty more fish......
Wow, I'm learning so much from your videos, thanks, finally remembered to subscribe!
Wow absolutely mind blowing
Good to know. I recently overhauled my original Sea-Gull pocket watch, taking pictures of each step during disassembling and re-assembling. I took a closer look at the particular picture, showing this part of the lower plate of the movement. I did not find any little bump or scratch, so I hope my movement was manufactured with a little more care and precision.
Your videos are very well done and informative, love your channel.
Really informative Mark interesting that the makers do this
Awesome trick. Thank you. I assume you could also just file down the balance shaft to achieve the same goal.
Very good job thanks for you keep moving 👍👏👏👏
Another relatively cheap movement, the Vostok 2409, uses a shim and it works very well. Great video
Yes - shims are used in a lot of old SU movements.
@@WatchRepairChannel I worked in a service center for a very large luxury watch company, and we used shims still.
Very nice video 👍🏻 Thank you for posting.
I recently took apart an elgin pocket watch movement from 1897 and when I took off the balance cock while examining the plate I noticed 10 or 11 deliberate digs into the plate under where the balance cock sits, I wondered to myself why would someone do such a thing to a beautifully damasceened plate, you answered my question, thanks
Thanks! That was very useful and interesting!
Very Good and help full videos for watch repairist thanks alot
Thanks for such an intersting watch information, Mark.
Mesmerizing music....nice choice.
Incredible. Thank you.
Thanks for giving this precious information
Thats definitely a corner clips so to speak on their part no telling how many ppl that has got. Thanks for your experience
It's cleaner and needier if you were to add a Dial washer underneath the balance bridge to give the lift that you wanted without scarring the movement plate
I have seen Russian movements using thin sheet "spacer" for that same purpose too.
Yes - the SU movements are usually fitted with shims.
An ordinary thing in the world of mechanics. However, I have a complain, wathc repair is very expensive....!
I have seen Vacheron Constantin doing so.
Found one of these in a Zim 2602, it sort of fell out of the movement and i didn't really know what it was. Now i have lost it! Have noticed a lot of my 2602 lose amplitude when fully tightened by balance bridge! Now i'm off to make some scratches!!! I was also wondering if a correctly shaped piece of tin foil may do the trick!
Excellent video
Good to know. I was going to buy a seagull 1963 but not after seeing that. Love the videos. Keep em coming.
A wonderfully relaxing movie!
I've had a couple of older movements that had either a paper shim or copper shim under the balance cock.
With a quality movement, if and when possible, I rather move the jewels... I like your videos and your pacifying voice:)
I've been roaming through the back catalog and discovered this episode. What was the more desirable alternative solution apart from denting the plate?
Buy another clone for 20 bucks
Using a jeweling tool like a Horia, push the bottom jewel setting out a few of hundredths of a mm. Authentic Horia tools and pushers are pretty expensive, but like everything else, you can buy Chinese versions that are just as good for significantly less. If you are serious about watch repair, a Horia tool is a must have because endshakes might need to be tightened, loosened, or an impact can cause a jewel to tilt in its hole and a jeweling tool will let you make it flat again.
Thank you for another excellent video!
Funnily enough, I saw a blog post on this a while back. It had photos of big gouges in pocket watch plates, and explained that they were made on purpose to increase end shake. They were called "crow's feet" or "pig's ears" or something, and the more expensive solution was a shim made from gold!
Thanks !!!! from Morelia city México
Sounds like the “Ecco The Dolphin” soundtrack.
Also- amazing root cause analysis.
You are such a wonderful teacher & maker of classy videos Mr Mark Lovic. Your hands are a wonderful gift too. Now if I try to do that tiny work, things ping off the tweezers and disappear!! I'd be interested to know what sort of magnification equipment you are using. Thank you so much for his. Excellent! Sincerely, Berry G
Fascinating! Could you show the proper repair of an end shake issue?
The point of the video was to point out a manufacturing quirk. It was just an interesting fault to find on a stock movement :) You would expect a watch out of a mass produced production line to have perfect end-shake, however, these are very low budget movements.
As for proper repair? Well, the balance staff should be manufactured to the correct height in the first place. But if you want a most elegant fix you would slightly reduce the pivots and then re-polish them. This would mean a much lengthier job and so if it was a job for a customer then they would be charged accordingly, possibly pricing the repair out of acceptable economical boundaries.
Brilliant, Thank you !
Fascinating ! I wonder how Rolex would deal with this on one of their watches....
exactly one of my 7s26 movment has the sam problem i tired to disassemble and cleaning and assembled again i will try this trick i hope it's workout 😢
Would aluminum foil work as a shim? The foil could extend over the entire area between the balance cock and plate. Assuming no wrinkles or corrosion, this method should have less chance of rocking, or reduced height after repeated tightening of the balance cock screws
Thank you so much !
Fine Mica Shim !. Perfect. Use Mica from a Mica transistor insulator. Carefully split it !!.
Anyway we all have our tricks !!. Fine Video`s Mark. Thanks for showing us your expertise.
Ist not a trick. Shims are in all books of fine mechanics and engineering .
Parabéns pelos videos, abraços do Brasil.
I buy old pocket watches on ebay and many of them either have a bump or a bent balance cock to increase or decrease the end shake. I am surprised to see it on new production.
Absolutely.
low cost
At 0:36 you can see the oil moving in the jewel towards the top!
My ST36 is still on the way from China, but I am very curious to see if it has a similar "adjustment" right from the factory. It's a bit disappointing really, but I guess it is what it is.
Hello Mark, would you class the small dot of material as acting as a shim to lift the plate. I work for Rolls-Royce aero engines and using thin shims is a perectely acceptable practice especially when setting up setting up machining fixtures. Finally, fantastic videos, it makes me appreciate my Rolex Datejust more than I already do!
Absolutely - I personally have no problem with it but some watch repairers get the ass over this kind of practice :(
In an ideal world yes. But many repairs would price out the job for some customers so lets be real. To address using a Horia tool to adjust endshake - are you sure you are supposed to adjust the height of the incabloc, who taught you that? And slightly bending the bridge - possibly considered 'creating damage to fix a problem'? To expand on this - would reaming out an old pivot hole in order to fit a new bush be considered 'causing damage to fix a problem'?
Right or wrong, watch repairers have been using this technique for probably longer than you and I have been alive, the purpose of the video was not to start a 'best practices' debate as nobody wins those, but rather to point out a potential pitfall for anybody working on these movements - a public service - maybe it will help someone :)
Karson Barnes absolutely. There's always going to be a high degree of polarisation in regards to opinions on repair options. For some watch repairers, it's important to try and keep the costs down for their customers. They don't want to present a £300 bill for two days work on a movement when the watch is worth considerably less (unless the customer wants a purist repair and is willing to pay for it). Another type of repair which causes similar controversy is using hole closing punches to rectify wear on a barrel bridge/barrel arbor hole. Often the bridge is too thin to support a bush safely and so the two alternatives will be to use hole closing punches or replace the bridge. I have seen some absolutely aweful jobs done in the past as far as looks are concerned but the watch runs well. Right or wrong - it's up to the owner as long as the watch repairer explains to the owner what the options are. I intend to show this technique in the future - it will piss a lot of watch repair purists off - but I believe watch repairers should be able to give these options and know how to perform them elegantly so as to provide low cost alternative repair options for lower budget watches.
Seems to me that if raising a bump is a tendency/expediency then there ought to be a chisel or set of chisels to do so in a repeatable manner.
Thanks and it was really helpful
These types of marks on Chinese movements demonstrate the large tolerances with which they work, and for me differentiate them from Japanese movements in terms of robustness.
Superb video. Cheers.
Maybe a stupid question: why not just shorten the balance staff a tiny bit?
Such a excellent videoo ..keep going sirr
Hey I have a question, if the pallet fork doesn't move the pallet wheel, what kind of problem is that? The balance and pallet fork move, but the pallet wheel won't. I've tried realigning them but it doesn't work.
I think what I would have done is place a small washer over the hole. This would nessitate using a slightly different size screw, but I would find that more acceptable than messing up the plate. And I’m shocked that a manufacturer of any quality movement would resort to this method of adjustment.
I've read that seagull doesn't lubricate the bearings on these movements out of the factory and that the bearings wear out after 2 years of use like that. How true is that statement from your experience?
really interested in this subject. I am not wealthy enough to buy one of the swiss ones and I am checking for seagul my self...please let me know if you know
@@SqiroS22 could not find any more information on it. In another video on this channel, he has mentioned that "from the factory, the movements have an 'acceptable' level of lubrication [on the jewels]" and I have only seen one source that states the movement leaves the factory with no lubrication. I'll attach the link. So it might very well just be a rumor or an inexperienced watchmaker.
www.asian-watches.com/2016/04/a-warning-about-seagull-st-3600-vs-eta.html
wonderful information ,,, thanks for the video ,,,
Sir, could you also do some 2789, 2836, ST96 and a few other services. Great work btw.
Awesome video thx
Thank you
Experienced watchmakers will call the divot on the bal. brg. a 'chicken peck'. I have found that many times on lower
jeweled watches--The cheaper quality movement often meant the less money the owner could afford to have it
properly serviced. Or, the 'botchmaker' got flustered & ran out of patience
thank u very much marc
Great video as usual. Thumbs up from me.
How difficult would it be to remove a few 10,000ths from the balance pivot. I'm a mechanic, and this seems like it would be a permanent solution, as opposed to distorting the balance cock surface.
Wow! Do you know how many times i've suffered this problem with these movements and never resolved it ?? Thanks so much for this, Mark. BTW, thats a 6498 (seconds hands at 6 o'clock), i think ? The layout of the wheel train and winding mech is different on the 6497.
The differences are minimal and the 6497 is more recognised due to the use in self builds (panerai clones for example). I have both here and you can still follow along no problem with either 6497 or 6498. I will do a detailed comparison video soon :)
Thanks, Mark. Just threw me for a moment and wanted to warn other people watching. Thanks so much for what you are doing, its amazing. I'll be signing up for Level 2 as soon as its done.
My pleasure - good call. And thank you :)
Thanks
Hi my fri. I have a vacheron constantin geneve watch. It is old and does not have a number so that I can find its backup materials. I am missing two things. The first is Steam,and croun. and the other thing is the cross dancing in the face of the watch. How do I find her Steam? How do I know if it is suitable for her? How many types of Steam are there in the world of watches? Can we install any one? Or does it have to be specific? The other thing, do you think will prostrate to her cross dancing? And where can i find it ? And if I wanted to send you a picture of it, how do I send it? Thank u.
Brilliant Mark. I was not aware of this. One to look out for in future. I have also bout a clone seagull movement so will be checking that. Would you given more time shorten the balance staff equally at each end by a thou or so?
very interesting
Very interesting, not exactly precision engineering but it did the job.
I am just an enthusiast and out of curiosity I was wondering what causes this technique to be necessary? That is, which part of the assembly is off and how? Second, why do watchmakers frown upon this simple fix? Does it eventually no longer work? I think you said you've taken it apart at least 6 times so it took a lot of assembly and disassembly to break the fix and even then, only a second to restore it. So why the intense dislike of the approach?
Thank you for advice 🤔🤘💸🎓⌚
great video.Thanks!
Cheers :)
I found a shim under one recently (shim under balance cock on the WRT forum) and on one old pocket watch there was what appeared to be a bit of cigarette rolling paper! I'm guessing this practice has been going on since watches were mass produced.
Shims are quite common with certain calibres, for example the SU movements found in certain Sekonda watches.
Since you seem really professional and passionate for what you do I want to express my admire.
Could you please let me know if this movement is at least basic lubricated? I have one from same manufacturer slightly different (6498 seagull) Mine is almost one year old installed in a parnis aviator style homage. Fairly accurate, can be adjusted easily I guess for better accuracy but I would really really like to know if it worths. Lubrication is important as I know.
Thank you, sir.
I'm just curious...would the 'proper' adjustment be to dismantle the balance wheel and slightly shorten the pivot(s) to gain the necessary endshake?
That's one way. But as long as the conical part of the staff does not start to found the jewel setting.
Mark. thanks for your detail-videos... I recall watching ( 2~3years ago) about an
hour long Unitas/SeaGull 6497 disAssemble/reAssemble video by you and
cannot locate it... has it been taken down. I was getting interested in it as it
makes for a better intro/learning experience using 1mm screwdrivers and tweezers
instead of a HalfInch-drive socket set and Channel-Lock(tm) pliers ~~grin
A better and more definite solution is to press the lower balance stone 1/100 or 2/100 mm down so the staff has a little more play.
Shame on you for working on clone seagull movements ( lol just kidding) it's amazing that they are still serviceable. Good job in resolving issues in those.
Question: Does this problem suggest there is a mathematical error with the balance staff?
Hi Mark, could you give me advice on what you think is best to use, a desk mounted magnifying glass or a head mounted magnifying glass? And also where I could buy either?
Why don't you do what I do and adjust the shockproof setting height after removing the lump in the case
Why not bring the ends of the balance staff down to suit the end shake, if it wasn't too much that need to come off, by burnishing and polishing the staff ends in a jacot tool.
It seems that this is endorsing and perpetuating a bad practice of 'make do'' rather than remedy the problem for good?
Given the choice, I would go with the latter.
Hi mark can you pls show us how to adjust the balance wheel of seiko 6309-7290 my watch is late 9 mins in 2 days.thank you so much.
Don't understand why this procedure was necessary at the time of manufacture. Seems to me it suggests a design flaw from the getgo?
Rather a fabrication flaw (and QC flaw too).