I felt Windu's comment was more about capability and numbers than morals and impartiality. He was famously one of the most belligerent jedi of his day and I always interpreted his words as: "We can try to keep things from boiling over, but if s**t hits the fan, we won't be able to clean it up by ourselves." We have to keep in mind how old the Republic is and how long it remained de facto hegemon of the galaxy. For citizens of the Republic siding with it is less supporting a particular government and more supporting civilization vs collapse. The closest comparison I can think of is how historically Chinese viewed the idea of unified China.
The Pius Dea stuff is so wild and intriguing. I wish we had a series covering that, whether it have been a book series like NJO or the old comics (which typically handled Old Republic stories).
A comic series like Tales of the Jedi about the Pius Dea would be great. It's fascinating to think that for such a long period the Star Wars Galaxy was Warhammer, and Republic forces operated like the Imperium of Man.
To be fair. If the Jedi actually did live up to their title I suspect the same people who complain about how the Jedi are corrupted by war would then go and argue that the Jedi’s ‘hubris’ by staying out of war also makes them corrupt. An argument along of the lines of: ‘they’re corrupt because they sit in ivory temples sitting on their ass when the universe burns.’ Just can’t win with some people
This is how I have always felt. I think people tend to take the Jedi being flawed too far, where you will see people in the same video or comment say the Jedi are corrupted by being so involved in the Republic and also corrupt because they get involved in politics at all.
@@redleaderantilles1263 agreed , and there’s a perfect example as to why: Dooku was a highly esteemed member of the Jedi doing suspicious things, obviously the Jedi were corrupt for trusting him. Ashoka was a highly esteemed member of the Jedi doing suspicious things, obviously the Jedi were corrupt for not trusting her. Ultimately the only difference between the two scenarios was twenty twenty hindsight, or the fourth wall
I do actually think this. Yes, the Jedi would be wrong if they either sit the war while millions suffered, like in the Mandalorian Wars, and they would ALSO be wrong if they went to full-on war without thinking like in the Clone Wars. There are situations where any option is wrong, and that is indicative of how trapped the Jedi are because of their involvement with a stagnated, corrupt and capitalistic institution like the Republic. For example, would the US be in the wrong if they let the Ukrainians be invaded by the Russians, or should they feed the machine of war and go into a conflict mirred in imperialism? Neither answer is the right one, and the only way out is to hopefully build a third option.
@@reymafias6404 I suspect the same logic can be applied to the Republic and often is used to unfairly present them as corrupt, for example: If the Republic doesn't go to war with slavers then it is corrupt because it enables slavery. If it does then it's corrupt because it starts a terrible war to enforce its morals on others. Or alternatively: A Senator votes for a bill that benefits the Republic at large but screws over their sector. Then it will be argued that the Senator is corrupt because they lost touch with the people they were elected to represent. If they do the opposite, then they're corrupt because they're screwing over billions more people for a few. I don't think it's even fair to say it's inherent in the system, because what system isn't prone to these dilemmas? Ultimately if anyone's here to argue the Jedi/Republic/ any other institution is corrupt they first have to answer what an uncorrupt system looks like
Just wanted to say I’ve been loving your lore focused content. Some star wars channels get caught up in other stuff but yours is cool. Makes me think there’s more people like me who love diving into this universe and getting lost in the expansive lore.
The Jedi *have* historically acted as soldiers to both their detriment and that of the Republic, which is why I see Mace Windu's statement in Attack of the Clones to be primarily acknowledging that and saying "never again".
One thing I found hilarious (can’t remember the exact episode) Mace Windu trying to negotiate with the Driod army (for once) Flexes and tells them how many drops he has personally destroyed by that point in the clone wars. (To intimate them) He asked the druids to surrender. It seems like despite their roles as peace keepers droids are not exactly mechanical beings capable of surrendering,
@ I meant it more ironically that Mace Windu (the Jedi who is arguably coldest we see on screen) actually offers a surrender one time on screen the Droids don’t take it.
The Jedi are not soliders but for a technical reason, not a moral one. The way Jedi fight is not focused on combat, unit manoeuvre even, really any technical sense. Their way of fighting is entirely based on a strength of individual. That would make them warriors, not soliders
you could interpret the Line from Mace in a certain way, that they see themself more as a Police force, more like a Marshal in an Old Western or a Counter Terrorist Unit, good for Keeping the Peace, but not enough to fight a war
I think there's often a marriage of republic navy and jedi army in any given conflict. Jedi don't have the manpower or credits to maintain a fleet, nor would even a single capital ship help them in their regular duties.
What I found sad is that the entire point of the clone wars was to force the Jedi to become soldiers (and lose their so called “neutral status”) and lose the support of the people. That was way emperor Palpatine could use order 66 to wipe them out mostly and paint Jedi as these traitors (and not have anyone remember they were on the same side before). Aka the Jedi fell into the trap as soon as the war began.
being too afraid to defend civilians under attack in a war because you might get real mad and do some bad shit later is maybe my least favorite thing I have ever heard of the jedi doing
So there is a large gap between a warrior and a soldier, the jedi from just their name were modeled after the romanticized idea of the knight errant (or the romanticized idea of the ronin). A sort of wandering higher(moral) authority with the ability to wield enough force to promote justice. The thing with a knight errant is there may be a quest or a higher ideal, but there are no orders to follow, this is more like the seekers from the high republic era or what you saw between Quigon and Obiwon in some of the novels dealing with the period of Obiwon's padawanship(padawanhood?). Such individuals might be gathered together to fight against a great evil during something akin to a crusade, but they would still not be soldiers.
Given the stuff they wrote about in Legends? No, they completely failed at being peacekeepers. They were troubleshooters and cleanup guys, but in terms of "keeping the peace" or "preventing conflicts" they tended to fail pretty hard.
Now I think Jedi should have done a better job of keeping themselves out of Republic politices, though they are right to try to be mostly peace keepers but they do need to a little bit more willing truly fight for Revan’s fall after Mando Wars and the Jedi Civil War was largely their own fault by letter their fear and reasonable worries about their members to blind them to the Will of the Force just like prequel era Jedi with by coming more of lapdogs to the Republic.
I think the idea is, they're not supposed to be soldiers, bacause a war is the best tool to make them prone to the eases of the dark side. Turns out killing loads of people on the regular isn't very good for your inner balance. So if it can helped in any way, they should not engage in active war. On the other hand, you potentially can save a lot of lives with the single sacrifice of you're values and integrety. So it comes down to the individual Jedi if they feel they can withstand the corruption of war, long enough to make a difference and have a plan for how to disengage IF they notice their progression to the dark side. TLDR: War is a Trap!
Does anybody in the comments section think we are getting Hondo in Skelton Crew? Because its a Dave Filoni show about Pirates and Hondo is a Dave Filoni Pirate Character.
Jedi don't get paid so they're by definition not soldiers which are military personel who sell their services (that's were the term soldier comes from)/ get paid in money. Instead they're just like medieval knights who worked out of obligations dictated by tradition basically.
The modern definition of a word isn't the same as its etymological root. The modern definition of a soldier is more typically someone who is in military service or is in an army. The aspect of being paid isn't part of most modern definitions.
Etymology doesn't determine definition, which merely states serving in an army. There are historically plenty of examples of soldiers who are very clearly soldiers without having to be paid.
The term goes back to a coin called "solidus" of ancient Roman times. And yes, you're correct in saying payment isn't the only factor. There are other important factors. For example to be part of an army you need to wear that army's uniform. And the Jedi didn't do that, quite to the contrary. Even if Jedi like Obi-Wan wore partial plastoid armor they made sure to have a print of the Jedi Order sigil on it to distinct themselves from the actual army if not the Republic in its entirety. If not in armor they wore Jedi robes. The Jedi did everything they could to stay autonomous from the actual army which was subordinate to the senate and/ or the office of the supreme chancellor and other republic authorities. Another good example would be Ahsoka's military trial which legally could only happen after she was expelled from the order. So Jedi didn't get paid, didn't wear the uniform and weren't beholden to the Republic judical system or authorities aside from their own ruling body in general. Calling them soldiers just doesn't fit the profile of the term in my opinion. If anything they were a state within the state.
@Codyfrost93 in the old republic, he literally says, "He made me a Sith Lord and named me Darth Revan. I’ve killed him. I’ve turned on the Republic, but I have found redemption!"
They definitely are trained warriors. That's just part of the jedi training. As warriors with a strong association with galactic politics, they often participate in the conflicts of the galaxy. They could maintain that they are peacekeepers who have to act as soldiers from time to time, but they commit themselves to The Republic and typically fight on their side. Their loyalty to that institution and their direct participation in the governance prevents them from being a neutral third party that can claim to be just about keeping the peace.
I felt Windu's comment was more about capability and numbers than morals and impartiality.
He was famously one of the most belligerent jedi of his day and I always interpreted his words as: "We can try to keep things from boiling over, but if s**t hits the fan, we won't be able to clean it up by ourselves."
We have to keep in mind how old the Republic is and how long it remained de facto hegemon of the galaxy. For citizens of the Republic siding with it is less supporting a particular government and more supporting civilization vs collapse. The closest comparison I can think of is how historically Chinese viewed the idea of unified China.
They're a martial order, but the Jedi Order is not the replacement for a full scale army.
It’s like asking a school of Shao Lin monks to be the army. Can they fight? Yes. Can they be an army? No.
The Pius Dea stuff is so wild and intriguing. I wish we had a series covering that, whether it have been a book series like NJO or the old comics (which typically handled Old Republic stories).
A comic series like Tales of the Jedi about the Pius Dea would be great. It's fascinating to think that for such a long period the Star Wars Galaxy was Warhammer, and Republic forces operated like the Imperium of Man.
To be fair. If the Jedi actually did live up to their title I suspect the same people who complain about how the Jedi are corrupted by war would then go and argue that the Jedi’s ‘hubris’ by staying out of war also makes them corrupt.
An argument along of the lines of: ‘they’re corrupt because they sit in ivory temples sitting on their ass when the universe burns.’
Just can’t win with some people
This is how I have always felt. I think people tend to take the Jedi being flawed too far, where you will see people in the same video or comment say the Jedi are corrupted by being so involved in the Republic and also corrupt because they get involved in politics at all.
@@redleaderantilles1263 agreed , and there’s a perfect example as to why:
Dooku was a highly esteemed member of the Jedi doing suspicious things, obviously the Jedi were corrupt for trusting him.
Ashoka was a highly esteemed member of the Jedi doing suspicious things, obviously the Jedi were corrupt for not trusting her.
Ultimately the only difference between the two scenarios was twenty twenty hindsight, or the fourth wall
I do actually think this. Yes, the Jedi would be wrong if they either sit the war while millions suffered, like in the Mandalorian Wars, and they would ALSO be wrong if they went to full-on war without thinking like in the Clone Wars. There are situations where any option is wrong, and that is indicative of how trapped the Jedi are because of their involvement with a stagnated, corrupt and capitalistic institution like the Republic. For example, would the US be in the wrong if they let the Ukrainians be invaded by the Russians, or should they feed the machine of war and go into a conflict mirred in imperialism? Neither answer is the right one, and the only way out is to hopefully build a third option.
@@reymafias6404 I suspect the same logic can be applied to the Republic and often is used to unfairly present them as corrupt, for example:
If the Republic doesn't go to war with slavers then it is corrupt because it enables slavery. If it does then it's corrupt because it starts a terrible war to enforce its morals on others.
Or alternatively:
A Senator votes for a bill that benefits the Republic at large but screws over their sector. Then it will be argued that the Senator is corrupt because they lost touch with the people they were elected to represent. If they do the opposite, then they're corrupt because they're screwing over billions more people for a few.
I don't think it's even fair to say it's inherent in the system, because what system isn't prone to these dilemmas?
Ultimately if anyone's here to argue the Jedi/Republic/ any other institution is corrupt they first have to answer what an uncorrupt system looks like
Just wanted to say I’ve been loving your lore focused content. Some star wars channels get caught up in other stuff but yours is cool. Makes me think there’s more people like me who love diving into this universe and getting lost in the expansive lore.
Especially with the…current state of the franchise.
The Jedi *have* historically acted as soldiers to both their detriment and that of the Republic, which is why I see Mace Windu's statement in Attack of the Clones to be primarily acknowledging that and saying "never again".
One thing I found hilarious (can’t remember the exact episode)
Mace Windu trying to negotiate with the Driod army (for once)
Flexes and tells them how many drops he has personally destroyed by that point in the clone wars. (To intimate them)
He asked the druids to surrender. It seems like despite their roles as peace keepers droids are not exactly mechanical beings capable of surrendering,
Season 7 Episode 4. “Unfinished Business” final episode of the Bad Batch arc.
Huh? Droids surrender all the time. Often the Jedi they're surrendering to just slaughter them anyway though
@ I meant it more ironically that Mace Windu (the Jedi who is arguably coldest we see on screen) actually offers a surrender one time on screen the Droids don’t take it.
I think we watched a different clone wars if mace was tryna get intimate wid droids lol
Tbf, keeping the peace is certainly open to interpretation. Some Jedi would prefer to mediate, others like to create a desert.
The Jedi are not soliders but for a technical reason, not a moral one. The way Jedi fight is not focused on combat, unit manoeuvre even, really any technical sense. Their way of fighting is entirely based on a strength of individual. That would make them warriors, not soliders
you could interpret the Line from Mace in a certain way, that they see themself more as a Police force, more like a Marshal in an Old Western or a Counter Terrorist Unit, good for Keeping the Peace, but not enough to fight a war
I think there's often a marriage of republic navy and jedi army in any given conflict. Jedi don't have the manpower or credits to maintain a fleet, nor would even a single capital ship help them in their regular duties.
What I found sad is that the entire point of the clone wars was to force the Jedi to become soldiers (and lose their so called “neutral status”) and lose the support of the people. That was way emperor Palpatine could use order 66 to wipe them out mostly and paint Jedi as these traitors (and not have anyone remember they were on the same side before).
Aka the Jedi fell into the trap as soon as the war began.
being too afraid to defend civilians under attack in a war because you might get real mad and do some bad shit later is maybe my least favorite thing I have ever heard of the jedi doing
Yeah that line seems weird when they've fought in a lot of conflicts as generals.
So there is a large gap between a warrior and a soldier, the jedi from just their name were modeled after the romanticized idea of the knight errant (or the romanticized idea of the ronin). A sort of wandering higher(moral) authority with the ability to wield enough force to promote justice. The thing with a knight errant is there may be a quest or a higher ideal, but there are no orders to follow, this is more like the seekers from the high republic era or what you saw between Quigon and Obiwon in some of the novels dealing with the period of Obiwon's padawanship(padawanhood?). Such individuals might be gathered together to fight against a great evil during something akin to a crusade, but they would still not be soldiers.
I mean the whole point of the video is that that doesn't really hold up to how they actually operate historically though.
Given the stuff they wrote about in Legends? No, they completely failed at being peacekeepers. They were troubleshooters and cleanup guys, but in terms of "keeping the peace" or "preventing conflicts" they tended to fail pretty hard.
Now I think Jedi should have done a better job of keeping themselves out of Republic politices, though they are right to try to be mostly peace keepers but they do need to a little bit more willing truly fight for Revan’s fall after Mando Wars and the Jedi Civil War was largely their own fault by letter their fear and reasonable worries about their members to blind them to the Will of the Force just like prequel era Jedi with by coming more of lapdogs to the Republic.
I think the idea is, they're not supposed to be soldiers, bacause a war is the best tool to make them prone to the eases of the dark side.
Turns out killing loads of people on the regular isn't very good for your inner balance.
So if it can helped in any way, they should not engage in active war.
On the other hand, you potentially can save a lot of lives with the single sacrifice of you're values and integrety.
So it comes down to the individual Jedi if they feel they can withstand the corruption of war, long enough to make a difference and have a plan for how to disengage IF they notice their progression to the dark side.
TLDR: War is a Trap!
First time seeing a new video on my feed with "Posted 56 seconds ago"
order received 👉🏼
Outside the wars, they were peacekeepers.
Does anybody in the comments section think we are getting Hondo in Skelton Crew? Because its a Dave Filoni show about Pirates and Hondo is a Dave Filoni Pirate Character.
👍
"The Vong" is Corey a space racist? 🤣
Jedi don't get paid so they're by definition not soldiers which are military personel who sell their services (that's were the term soldier comes from)/ get paid in money. Instead they're just like medieval knights who worked out of obligations dictated by tradition basically.
The modern definition of a word isn't the same as its etymological root. The modern definition of a soldier is more typically someone who is in military service or is in an army. The aspect of being paid isn't part of most modern definitions.
Etymology doesn't determine definition, which merely states serving in an army. There are historically plenty of examples of soldiers who are very clearly soldiers without having to be paid.
The term goes back to a coin called "solidus" of ancient Roman times. And yes, you're correct in saying payment isn't the only factor. There are other important factors. For example to be part of an army you need to wear that army's uniform. And the Jedi didn't do that, quite to the contrary. Even if Jedi like Obi-Wan wore partial plastoid armor they made sure to have a print of the Jedi Order sigil on it to distinct themselves from the actual army if not the Republic in its entirety. If not in armor they wore Jedi robes. The Jedi did everything they could to stay autonomous from the actual army which was subordinate to the senate and/ or the office of the supreme chancellor and other republic authorities.
Another good example would be Ahsoka's military trial which legally could only happen after she was expelled from the order. So Jedi didn't get paid, didn't wear the uniform and weren't beholden to the Republic judical system or authorities aside from their own ruling body in general. Calling them soldiers just doesn't fit the profile of the term in my opinion. If anything they were a state within the state.
Military don't use swords as a main armament, with a few exceptions. Anyone?
So it's ultimately the fans fault lol
Yeah they’re a group of paramilitarily emotionally-stunted monks who keep getting themselves involved in the affairs of normal people
revan didn't fall cause of the war it was because of the influence of the emperor
It was literally because of the war..The Emperor knew nothing of Revan until Revan went looking for him.
@Codyfrost93 in the old republic, he literally says, "He made me a Sith Lord and named me Darth Revan. I’ve killed him. I’ve turned on the Republic, but I have found redemption!"
They definitely are trained warriors. That's just part of the jedi training. As warriors with a strong association with galactic politics, they often participate in the conflicts of the galaxy.
They could maintain that they are peacekeepers who have to act as soldiers from time to time, but they commit themselves to The Republic and typically fight on their side.
Their loyalty to that institution and their direct participation in the governance prevents them from being a neutral third party that can claim to be just about keeping the peace.