I would point out that the 'Stormtrooper' Luke 'kills' in BFC was an illusion by Akanah, since she was manipulating Luke through lies about his mother and her perceived helplessness to get him to do what she wanted. The Fallanasi in general are on a ridiculous extreme of pacifism always choosing to use illusions to flee or hide without actually doing much to help others unless more of less backed into it and harshly judging any other path as wrong.
There's plenty of room to criticize Akanah's own actions and beliefs, but this is still a very valid and telling test of character for Luke. So long as he believed that the life he ended was real, people are within their rights to critically evaluate the casual manner in which he chose to extinguish it. As a warrior, perhaps it would be commendable. However, the Jedi have always maintained a pretention as being far more than simple warriors, have they not?
@@75pc44 not really, because of the context. The 'Stormtrooper' and his 'backup' attacked first and were directly threatening Akanah and her people as far as Luke knew through the dialogue exchange from the illusions, what she had told him and the region of the Galaxy they were in. Luke responded in a very Jedi way. He defended himself and others after being attacked. Akanah and the Fallanasi are not just criticizing Luke in his actions in the BFC, they're critical in the extreme of ANY violence regardless of context. Had Luke attacked first, used disproportionate force or acted excessively then the argument about abuse/overuse of his power would apply. Zahn does a much better job illustrating that example with Luke gradually realizing that mental domination through the Force of other beings is inherently an overstep that should be a last resort and temporary if used at all rather than the immediate go to just because you can. Luke has many moments of overdoing things, but not in BFC. I'd instead argue that the Fallanasi as a whole are an example of taking a philosophical ideal to a dangerous extreme, because they have the power to help and until forced into a corner they utterly refuse to use it for anyone other than their own cult. They're the textbook example of "When good people do nothing, evil triumphs"
Ahh yes that conversation from Vision of the Future, maybe I’m missing some but I really dislike at least part of Maras take, mostly the dark side stuff because it’s also the moment Zahn seems to jump through hoops to explain how Mara never fell to the darkside or whatever.
Correction; it was Luke's take. He thought she didn't fall to the Dark side because... "Knight" is derivative of the German word "Knecht" which means servant, among other things. Mara was Palpatine's knight. She was devoted, loyal, and selfless. One of the core aspects of a Jedi. What she was missing was an awareness of a "larger world". To her, Palpatine was her world, and that kind of mentality wouldn't get her very far in the ways of the force. It might be why Mara's powers came and went in the years leading up to "Heir of the Empire". When Mara found a place she thought she could belong to, her "loyalty" started to kick in, and along with that, her Force powers. But with her powers, came her nightmares, and eventually she could no longer stay in the place she found herself to be. And then her powers would disappear again. When Karade cemented her loyalty to him, her powers started to return, but she didn't really notice because of where he was based. At any rate, Mara didn't like Luke suggesting that Mara was "good" while serving Palpatine. "Service to evil is still evil." - Mara Jade
Basically any explanation in Vision of the Future semms to me like a Zahn's flex and soft retcon of the stuff that happend between Thrawn trilogy and Thrawn dualogy, which was mostly caused by background drama (no communication between autors, miscommunication or last moment changes in decisions) than any paticular storytelling direction.
@@wasabyorechy1585 Some authors had Luke doing and saying some really dark side things. Usually to set up their own pet character knocking him down a peg. Everything going on with Callista for example. That was dark side asf. Or in the "Black Fleet Criss" where Luke boasts about destroying the Death Star 20 years to a woman just so she could reprimand him. I think Zahn acted with incredible tact, even when other authors didn't, even in public.
@@DisFantasy I never read the Calista books and Black Fleet... Yeah less said about that trilogy the better. It was really weird decade. You are definitely right about the authors doing their own things and I thing it really hurt some of those books and overall EU continuity.
there was more credibility to how he did it in Dark Empire. Palpatine would totally seek immortality through cloning, and he would definitely hide his dark side elite in the Deep Core worlds since he had near total galactic control. There's no reason for him to form a cult of Sith worshipers and hide in the Unknown Regions because he can safely use a close guarded secret like Byss to stay close to his seat of power on Coruscant. The logistics of the galaxy and his Empire are properly thought out and explained in the story of Dark Empire and it's even strengthened by the way he is characterized in the prequels. It's possible George took a lot of inspiration from DE for ROTS since there is a lot of similar imagery and it's a known fact George was more of a comic reader than a novel reader. He even gave out free copies of Dark Empire to employees as gifts.
DE and the ST have pretty similar amounts of cloning and essence transfer involved. One of the weird parts of Byss in DE is also that it *isn't* really a secret.
@@gabethebabe3337 Exactly. A lot of modern people in the fandom keep giving Dark Empire inaccurate bad rip for nothing but as soon as Disney does it in the most dull insulting and flat footed talking down way imaginable while mocking what the Dark Empire author wrote and claiming it is their original idea it is some how acceptable and okay? That's a double standard and bad bias with no integrity. Dark Empire isn't a bad continuing story and is clearly superior to the sequels. It didn't mock or undermine Luke Skywalker and his generation and he defeated Palpatine in direct combat at the end proving himself going the extra mile along with his sister Leia.
People who criticize DE, just look at flashcards and say it bad, but those same people give Darth Maul a pass. Dark Empire still had Character development for it main characters, for Luke wanting to learn everything even at price of falling to dark side which he did, (unlike rey seeing dark rey.) Luke vs Sidious does a better job of symbolize Jedi vs Sith, jedi use their knowledge to help other while Sith use their knowledge for themselves. Luke want power to help his friends and family who in turn save him from falling, together triumph over Sidious who horde all the knowledge and power for himself and was sorrunded false Loyalties and Sith "ghost" who refused to help him. Looking Sidon return, force ghost are established since the frist movie. Cloning is possible since clone war happened as frist mentioned in the first movie. With Thrawn trilogy as fanboy gush over had two clone jedi, one a jedi master and a recently created second of Luke himself named luuke. Don't see any fans b!tching how a clone having shared memories of their templates and used force effectively as the orginal there. Most importantly, Dark Empire was made with a passion to expand and explore a galaxy far far away while building off material already established and explored early. Disney just did an a$$pull and throw whatever they wanted at wall and see what they mix together instead of forming a planned outline frist before producing the sequel.
Palpatine did such a good job, it is never referred to as the "New Republic" only the "Rebel Alliance". Yavin IV was far far better than where they hid the kids next. Luke would revisit that obligation to the government a few decades later, and remove the Jedi from Coruscant.
I mean a lot of these failures are due to writers like Zahn and Stackpole trying to retcon some of the dumber decisions of other writers into a character arc that sort of made sense. And while I do like the overall broad strokes of that character arc, I will say that the whole "using the force too much" thing seems like a very weird lore addition just to reduce the power creep, since nothing in the films seems to indicate that if you use telekinesis too many times you won't be able to sense things as well (no, that's not why the Jedi couldn't sense Palpatine in the Prequels). Especially since Luke almost died earlier in the book as a result of his attempt to limit his use of the force. It's also something that IIRC isn't really brought up anymore after Hand of Thrawn aside from a few references to it in Dark Tide, and no one for the rest of NJO seems to consciously try to cut back on using the force as much for fear of not being able to sense things properly. NJO kind of had the problem of Luke being really weirdly passive and not wanting to attack for no reason despite having no problem with attacking tons of other badguys before that. The reasoning he gives to Vergere about somehow the Vong not being in the force somehow meaning that if the Jedi attack they will somehow inevitably turn to the dark side is just really flimsy IMO. Luckily Luceno fixed this in the end and Luke finally got to take action after 18 books of being more passive.
I think this also has to do with the prequels coming out, and Luke trying to focus on Jedi being peace keepers and not sucked into a war like the Old Republic Jedi had been. But the nature of the war different, survival vs. a territorial struggle.
Despite how much of a Legends Luke fanboy I am, he wasn’t that great of a leader. Between the growing pains of his NJO under his leadership and Yoda and Mace’s failings in the prequels, led me to the position that the Jedi should not have a Grand Master, rather be led by the Council with the tie breaker going to a Jedi with the most experience or knowledge on this or that if need be.
He wasn't supposed to be though. He was learning everything from being a simple farm boy to being the most important person in the galaxy. I mean that's like someone picking me up tomorrow and saying "here is the world have fun" and then smashing his car into a bomb and dying.
Zahn and Dark Empire author Tom Veitch notably disagreed with each other a ton during that time. As such, it felt less like Luke getting character development and more like Mara serving as an author surrogate to rant to the public about how he didn’t like Dark Empire. Not only that, but her hand waving away the clone Palpatine thing on the basis of her not knowing about it is ridiculous considering she didn’t even know that Palpatine had more Hands than her, so he clearly isn’t giving her the whole story about his secret operations.
I would like to see a "What If?" episode. What If Mara had decided to join the Empire of the Hand at the end of "Survivor's Quest" and Luke had gone with her, as he said he would -- quitting the Jedi Order in the process. How do you think that would have affected future Legends events?
What's so great about EU Luke is that his flaws and new arcs very much build, or as you could say, expand on what the Original Trilogy and retroactively the PT sets up. Luke does not have the same flaws as Anakin, Obi-Wan, Yoda or any of the old Jedi, he had his own. He learned from the OT but he developed his own mistakes because of it. This is something a lot of EU Luke critics and ST fans miss when they claim fans only like Legends Luke because he didn't fail or claim that he's perfect. The ST recycled the flaws of the PT Jedi onto Luke and made him unlearn his arc from the OT. He already proved to Yoda and Obi-Wan that they were wrong about Anakin being past redemption. EU Luke kept that lesson and his new flaws involved this belief that he could redeem anyone and that it was his responsibility to do so.
I can see the 3 kids, Dorsk 82, Cilghal, blond lady is probably Tionne, and green robe dude is probably Corran. Squid face and discount Bib Fortuna don't look familiar so they're probably just random aliens the artist threw in.
2:00: Non non, I say. Can't be helped if it means saving *billions* instead. 2:15: I actually sympathize with Luke. Guess paragons like the Ojamajos and a buncha Batmen have spoiled me. 2:58: Sometimes called the Aang/Steven Universe/Luz Noceda methodology. There are more names, they're just too numerous to mention them. 3:09: A *hardline Imperial* system. Redemption would have been too late for their sorry hides. 3:19: Still better than stuffy, unnatural Coruscant. 4:03: That's the thing about strawmen, jerk***es, and/or hypocrites. They sometimes to become more right than even the enlightened ones they're up against. *Sometimes.* 4:31: Whatever, I have a soft spot for Rosencrantz & Guildenstern tales. Plus, the JA novels are kinda hard to reread. I swear, Vergere should at least be a secret reincarnation of Kreia, only more honed in their teachings and surprisingly kinder and less manipulative about it. Ah, wish Troy Denning didn't undermine her character. Basically, Bakura is philosophized with equivalent exchange. Can somewhat agree with Akana. To some, a good Jedi is one who uncomplainingly sacrifices to save if not embetter lives, which means a kind of Jedi who's willing to do the price of killing. A *great* Jedi is one who does the same, but without any sacrifice at all, which means a kind of Jedi who does amazing things with the *least* cost to property, lives, and so on.
At least in the old canon he actually did stuff. He made mistakes but always tried to correct them and didn't go into exile giving up on everyone just because of some dumb criticism of the jedi order. Rey is right, Luke did not fail Kylo, Kylo failed him. The jedi order being defeated by the Sith implementing a good plan doesn't mean you should destroy the jedi order and let the Sith rule the galaxy. Nobody expects the jedi to fight the all first order by themselve but at least they could fight first order aligned force users to even things out. Luke is so dumb in the New Canon. Even Luke being so passive during the first phase of the Yuuzhan Vong war is not as frustrating as Luke in the Last Jedi.
@@luluflu1140 You're comparing books to movies, and it's important to recognize that they operate differently. A movie can't go into the same level of detail as a book, especially when dealing with a 30-year time gap in Luke’s story. We don't have much context on Luke’s actions during those years leading up to the events with Kylo Ren, so it's unfair to criticize the film for not filling in every detail. And just to clear up a misconception I see frequently: Luke never tried to kill Ben Solo. He contemplated it-briefly considered it-but he never acted on it. There’s a significant difference between thinking about something and following through. Luke realized he was wrong, but Ben woke up and saw him with a lightsaber, which led to everything that followed. It’s often misunderstood, and I think people who complain about this scene watched the movie once, misunderstood it, and then never gave it another chance. Also, just because the movie didn’t portray Luke in the way some fans wanted doesn’t make it bad. It comes across as selfish to expect a character to meet every fan’s expectations. Luke’s story in The Last Jedi revolves around the concept of legacy-coming to terms with the fact that he might not live up to the idealized version people hold of him. His story draws inspiration from Merlin in Arthurian legend, where Arthur reminds Merlin that failure is natural and that even someone as great as Merlin can fail. It’s about teaching Merlin that there’s nothing wrong with failure. The Last Jedi isn’t perfect, and I understand why some people dislike it. I used to feel the same way, but after watching it again and understanding the choices made for Luke’s character, I’ve come to appreciate it. The movie wasn’t about denying fans a reunion for the sake of it-it was about telling a story that challenged expectations. It’s ironic, really-fans often want fanservice, but then complain about it when they get it. No matter what, not everyone will be pleased with these stories. I don’t believe The Last Jedi aimed to upset fans intentionally; Rian Johnson didn’t set out to antagonize the audience. Ultimately, the 30-year gap between Return of the Jedi and The Last Jedi doesn’t need to be filled in with exposition. That backstory isn’t relevant to the story being told in the film. Some fans expect the film to explain every detail, but that’s not necessary for the story’s focus. Luke’s development in those 30 years, as shown in the film, is different and interesting-his experiences shaped him, and that’s the point. And for those who believe George Lucas would have done things differently, it’s worth noting that his vision for Luke was similar to what Rian Johnson presented. Johnson didn’t just invent this idea; he was influenced by George Lucas’s original concepts.
And they did, Disney Luke is a useless senile bum who never did anything remarkable after the Empire's defeat except learning how to milk space cows with his hands, and maybe also with his lips.
@@luluflu1140 Another point you mentioned was about the story deconstructing the Jedi's beliefs. Honestly, I think the film needed to do that, because the idea of the Jedi just returning the way they were before is fundamentally flawed. The Jedi were destroyed due to their own hubris-they were so caught up in their self-righteousness that they couldn’t see what was really happening around them. Luke comes to understand this, not because he himself was blinded by hubris, but because he realizes that the Jedi’s core beliefs were flawed. The emphasis on suppressing emotion and detachment creates an emotionally cold environment, and there are countless examples of Jedi turning to the dark side because of these rigid rules. Their association with the Republic also backfired, and while it’s unclear if Luke’s Jedi Academy was directly involved with the New Republic, it’s important to acknowledge these problems. There’s nothing wrong with discussing these issues. If Rey is going to build a new Jedi Order, it should be modeled after Qui-Gon Jinn’s philosophy-following the will of the Force rather than adhering to a strict, outdated dogma. Qui-Gon believed in listening to the Force itself rather than following traditions set by ancient Jedi. This same idea is reflected in the Darth Plagueis novel, where Plagueis refused to let Palpatine seek out old Sith knowledge because he didn’t want the Sith to become stagnant in tradition. The same thing happened to the Jedi-they became trapped by their own traditions. So, I think there’s nothing wrong with exploring these ideas, and The Last Jedi was on the right track in doing so. Unfortunately, The Rise of Skywalker undid much of this, likely because Disney was reacting to the backlash The Last Jedi received. It’s clear they were afraid of upsetting the fans further, but honestly, some fans need to take a step back and realize it's just a movie. The level of outrage shows that many people need to go outside and touch grass.
What really humbled Luke was when everyone learned he didn't like and subscribe to Corey's Datapad
Ehh this channel is really more up Ben's alley
"Use of his power as a crutch."
Influence gained: Kreia
*Influence lost: Kreia*
I would point out that the 'Stormtrooper' Luke 'kills' in BFC was an illusion by Akanah, since she was manipulating Luke through lies about his mother and her perceived helplessness to get him to do what she wanted. The Fallanasi in general are on a ridiculous extreme of pacifism always choosing to use illusions to flee or hide without actually doing much to help others unless more of less backed into it and harshly judging any other path as wrong.
There's plenty of room to criticize Akanah's own actions and beliefs, but this is still a very valid and telling test of character for Luke. So long as he believed that the life he ended was real, people are within their rights to critically evaluate the casual manner in which he chose to extinguish it. As a warrior, perhaps it would be commendable. However, the Jedi have always maintained a pretention as being far more than simple warriors, have they not?
@@75pc44 not really, because of the context. The 'Stormtrooper' and his 'backup' attacked first and were directly threatening Akanah and her people as far as Luke knew through the dialogue exchange from the illusions, what she had told him and the region of the Galaxy they were in.
Luke responded in a very Jedi way. He defended himself and others after being attacked. Akanah and the Fallanasi are not just criticizing Luke in his actions in the BFC, they're critical in the extreme of ANY violence regardless of context.
Had Luke attacked first, used disproportionate force or acted excessively then the argument about abuse/overuse of his power would apply. Zahn does a much better job illustrating that example with Luke gradually realizing that mental domination through the Force of other beings is inherently an overstep that should be a last resort and temporary if used at all rather than the immediate go to just because you can.
Luke has many moments of overdoing things, but not in BFC. I'd instead argue that the Fallanasi as a whole are an example of taking a philosophical ideal to a dangerous extreme, because they have the power to help and until forced into a corner they utterly refuse to use it for anyone other than their own cult. They're the textbook example of "When good people do nothing, evil triumphs"
"a period during which i was also first published"
I'd indeed be really interested in a video about the various critiques of the Jedi as an institution in NJO through FotJ.
Ahh yes that conversation from Vision of the Future, maybe I’m missing some but I really dislike at least part of Maras take, mostly the dark side stuff because it’s also the moment Zahn seems to jump through hoops to explain how Mara never fell to the darkside or whatever.
Yeah, I really dislike that as well, I talked about it more in-depth in another video: ua-cam.com/video/bIpbeM6XkP0/v-deo.html
Correction; it was Luke's take. He thought she didn't fall to the Dark side because...
"Knight" is derivative of the German word "Knecht" which means servant, among other things. Mara was Palpatine's knight. She was devoted, loyal, and selfless. One of the core aspects of a Jedi. What she was missing was an awareness of a "larger world". To her, Palpatine was her world, and that kind of mentality wouldn't get her very far in the ways of the force.
It might be why Mara's powers came and went in the years leading up to "Heir of the Empire". When Mara found a place she thought she could belong to, her "loyalty" started to kick in, and along with that, her Force powers. But with her powers, came her nightmares, and eventually she could no longer stay in the place she found herself to be. And then her powers would disappear again.
When Karade cemented her loyalty to him, her powers started to return, but she didn't really notice because of where he was based.
At any rate, Mara didn't like Luke suggesting that Mara was "good" while serving Palpatine. "Service to evil is still evil." - Mara Jade
Basically any explanation in Vision of the Future semms to me like a Zahn's flex and soft retcon of the stuff that happend between Thrawn trilogy and Thrawn dualogy, which was mostly caused by background drama (no communication between autors, miscommunication or last moment changes in decisions) than any paticular storytelling direction.
@@wasabyorechy1585 Some authors had Luke doing and saying some really dark side things. Usually to set up their own pet character knocking him down a peg.
Everything going on with Callista for example. That was dark side asf. Or in the "Black Fleet Criss" where Luke boasts about destroying the Death Star 20 years to a woman just so she could reprimand him.
I think Zahn acted with incredible tact, even when other authors didn't, even in public.
@@DisFantasy I never read the Calista books and Black Fleet... Yeah less said about that trilogy the better. It was really weird decade.
You are definitely right about the authors doing their own things and I thing it really hurt some of those books and overall EU continuity.
1991 somehow palpatine returned.
2019 somehow palpatine returned
Not really if anything Disney badly plagiarized and stole what the EU writers did and they retconned everything.
there was more credibility to how he did it in Dark Empire. Palpatine would totally seek immortality through cloning, and he would definitely hide his dark side elite in the Deep Core worlds since he had near total galactic control. There's no reason for him to form a cult of Sith worshipers and hide in the Unknown Regions because he can safely use a close guarded secret like Byss to stay close to his seat of power on Coruscant. The logistics of the galaxy and his Empire are properly thought out and explained in the story of Dark Empire and it's even strengthened by the way he is characterized in the prequels. It's possible George took a lot of inspiration from DE for ROTS since there is a lot of similar imagery and it's a known fact George was more of a comic reader than a novel reader. He even gave out free copies of Dark Empire to employees as gifts.
DE and the ST have pretty similar amounts of cloning and essence transfer involved. One of the weird parts of Byss in DE is also that it *isn't* really a secret.
@@gabethebabe3337
Exactly. A lot of modern people in the fandom keep giving Dark Empire inaccurate bad rip for nothing but as soon as Disney does it in the most dull insulting and flat footed talking down way imaginable while mocking what the Dark Empire author wrote and claiming it is their original idea it is some how acceptable and okay? That's a double standard and bad bias with no integrity. Dark Empire isn't a bad continuing story and is clearly superior to the sequels. It didn't mock or undermine Luke Skywalker and his generation and he defeated Palpatine in direct combat at the end proving himself going the extra mile along with his sister Leia.
People who criticize DE, just look at flashcards and say it bad, but those same people give Darth Maul a pass.
Dark Empire still had Character development for it main characters, for Luke wanting to learn everything even at price of falling to dark side which he did, (unlike rey seeing dark rey.)
Luke vs Sidious does a better job of symbolize Jedi vs Sith, jedi use their knowledge to help other while Sith use their knowledge for themselves. Luke want power to help his friends and family who in turn save him from falling, together triumph over Sidious who horde all the knowledge and power for himself and was sorrunded false Loyalties and Sith "ghost" who refused to help him.
Looking Sidon return, force ghost are established since the frist movie. Cloning is possible since clone war happened as frist mentioned in the first movie. With Thrawn trilogy as fanboy gush over had two clone jedi, one a jedi master and a recently created second of Luke himself named luuke. Don't see any fans b!tching how a clone having shared memories of their templates and used force effectively as the orginal there.
Most importantly, Dark Empire was made with a passion to expand and explore a galaxy far far away while building off material already established and explored early.
Disney just did an a$$pull and throw whatever they wanted at wall and see what they mix together instead of forming a planned outline frist before producing the sequel.
Palpatine did such a good job, it is never referred to as the "New Republic" only the "Rebel Alliance".
Yavin IV was far far better than where they hid the kids next.
Luke would revisit that obligation to the government a few decades later, and remove the Jedi from Coruscant.
I mean a lot of these failures are due to writers like Zahn and Stackpole trying to retcon some of the dumber decisions of other writers into a character arc that sort of made sense. And while I do like the overall broad strokes of that character arc, I will say that the whole "using the force too much" thing seems like a very weird lore addition just to reduce the power creep, since nothing in the films seems to indicate that if you use telekinesis too many times you won't be able to sense things as well (no, that's not why the Jedi couldn't sense Palpatine in the Prequels). Especially since Luke almost died earlier in the book as a result of his attempt to limit his use of the force. It's also something that IIRC isn't really brought up anymore after Hand of Thrawn aside from a few references to it in Dark Tide, and no one for the rest of NJO seems to consciously try to cut back on using the force as much for fear of not being able to sense things properly.
NJO kind of had the problem of Luke being really weirdly passive and not wanting to attack for no reason despite having no problem with attacking tons of other badguys before that. The reasoning he gives to Vergere about somehow the Vong not being in the force somehow meaning that if the Jedi attack they will somehow inevitably turn to the dark side is just really flimsy IMO. Luckily Luceno fixed this in the end and Luke finally got to take action after 18 books of being more passive.
I think this also has to do with the prequels coming out, and Luke trying to focus on Jedi being peace keepers and not sucked into a war like the Old Republic Jedi had been.
But the nature of the war different, survival vs. a territorial struggle.
Great video
Despite how much of a Legends Luke fanboy I am, he wasn’t that great of a leader. Between the growing pains of his NJO under his leadership and Yoda and Mace’s failings in the prequels, led me to the position that the Jedi should not have a Grand Master, rather be led by the Council with the tie breaker going to a Jedi with the most experience or knowledge on this or that if need be.
I saw a list. A lot of his students turned. It's kinda funny
He wasn't supposed to be though. He was learning everything from being a simple farm boy to being the most important person in the galaxy. I mean that's like someone picking me up tomorrow and saying "here is the world have fun" and then smashing his car into a bomb and dying.
Zahn and Dark Empire author Tom Veitch notably disagreed with each other a ton during that time. As such, it felt less like Luke getting character development and more like Mara serving as an author surrogate to rant to the public about how he didn’t like Dark Empire. Not only that, but her hand waving away the clone Palpatine thing on the basis of her not knowing about it is ridiculous considering she didn’t even know that Palpatine had more Hands than her, so he clearly isn’t giving her the whole story about his secret operations.
I would like to see a "What If?" episode. What If Mara had decided to join the Empire of the Hand at the end of "Survivor's Quest" and Luke had gone with her, as he said he would -- quitting the Jedi Order in the process. How do you think that would have affected future Legends events?
turns out Luke was a lot like Anakin
What's so great about EU Luke is that his flaws and new arcs very much build, or as you could say, expand on what the Original Trilogy and retroactively the PT sets up. Luke does not have the same flaws as Anakin, Obi-Wan, Yoda or any of the old Jedi, he had his own. He learned from the OT but he developed his own mistakes because of it. This is something a lot of EU Luke critics and ST fans miss when they claim fans only like Legends Luke because he didn't fail or claim that he's perfect.
The ST recycled the flaws of the PT Jedi onto Luke and made him unlearn his arc from the OT. He already proved to Yoda and Obi-Wan that they were wrong about Anakin being past redemption. EU Luke kept that lesson and his new flaws involved this belief that he could redeem anyone and that it was his responsibility to do so.
"But Luke was only an OP character after Endor!"
2:24 do we know who are all these guys around them in the picture and why they're wearing the bright colors?
We know who several are, they're mostly Jedi. I've always found the art in the Union comic this is from to be kind of hard to distinguish though.
I can see the 3 kids, Dorsk 82, Cilghal, blond lady is probably Tionne, and green robe dude is probably Corran. Squid face and discount Bib Fortuna don't look familiar so they're probably just random aliens the artist threw in.
Did Luke son Ben Skywalker also criticize him?
2:00: Non non, I say. Can't be helped if it means saving *billions* instead.
2:15: I actually sympathize with Luke. Guess paragons like the Ojamajos and a buncha Batmen have spoiled me.
2:58: Sometimes called the Aang/Steven Universe/Luz Noceda methodology. There are more names, they're just too numerous to mention them.
3:09: A *hardline Imperial* system. Redemption would have been too late for their sorry hides.
3:19: Still better than stuffy, unnatural Coruscant.
4:03: That's the thing about strawmen, jerk***es, and/or hypocrites. They sometimes to become more right than even the enlightened ones they're up against. *Sometimes.*
4:31: Whatever, I have a soft spot for Rosencrantz & Guildenstern tales. Plus, the JA novels are kinda hard to reread.
I swear, Vergere should at least be a secret reincarnation of Kreia, only more honed in their teachings and surprisingly kinder and less manipulative about it. Ah, wish Troy Denning didn't undermine her character.
Basically, Bakura is philosophized with equivalent exchange.
Can somewhat agree with Akana. To some, a good Jedi is one who uncomplainingly sacrifices to save if not embetter lives, which means a kind of Jedi who's willing to do the price of killing. A *great* Jedi is one who does the same, but without any sacrifice at all, which means a kind of Jedi who does amazing things with the *least* cost to property, lives, and so on.
👍
🤔 . . . Lets go over this again, but under the narrative of that MMORPG _Star Wars: the Old Republic_ …
But....but... bu.. Disney ruined Luke. 😂
At least in the old canon he actually did stuff. He made mistakes but always tried to correct them and didn't go into exile giving up on everyone just because of some dumb criticism of the jedi order. Rey is right, Luke did not fail Kylo, Kylo failed him.
The jedi order being defeated by the Sith implementing a good plan doesn't mean you should destroy the jedi order and let the Sith rule the galaxy. Nobody expects the jedi to fight the all first order by themselve but at least they could fight first order aligned force users to even things out. Luke is so dumb in the New Canon.
Even Luke being so passive during the first phase of the Yuuzhan Vong war is not as frustrating as Luke in the Last Jedi.
Luke's arc in TLJ is one of the few redeeming qualities of that movie.
@@luluflu1140
You're comparing books to movies, and it's important to recognize that they operate differently. A movie can't go into the same level of detail as a book, especially when dealing with a 30-year time gap in Luke’s story. We don't have much context on Luke’s actions during those years leading up to the events with Kylo Ren, so it's unfair to criticize the film for not filling in every detail.
And just to clear up a misconception I see frequently: Luke never tried to kill Ben Solo. He contemplated it-briefly considered it-but he never acted on it. There’s a significant difference between thinking about something and following through. Luke realized he was wrong, but Ben woke up and saw him with a lightsaber, which led to everything that followed. It’s often misunderstood, and I think people who complain about this scene watched the movie once, misunderstood it, and then never gave it another chance.
Also, just because the movie didn’t portray Luke in the way some fans wanted doesn’t make it bad. It comes across as selfish to expect a character to meet every fan’s expectations. Luke’s story in The Last Jedi revolves around the concept of legacy-coming to terms with the fact that he might not live up to the idealized version people hold of him. His story draws inspiration from Merlin in Arthurian legend, where Arthur reminds Merlin that failure is natural and that even someone as great as Merlin can fail. It’s about teaching Merlin that there’s nothing wrong with failure.
The Last Jedi isn’t perfect, and I understand why some people dislike it. I used to feel the same way, but after watching it again and understanding the choices made for Luke’s character, I’ve come to appreciate it. The movie wasn’t about denying fans a reunion for the sake of it-it was about telling a story that challenged expectations.
It’s ironic, really-fans often want fanservice, but then complain about it when they get it. No matter what, not everyone will be pleased with these stories. I don’t believe The Last Jedi aimed to upset fans intentionally; Rian Johnson didn’t set out to antagonize the audience.
Ultimately, the 30-year gap between Return of the Jedi and The Last Jedi doesn’t need to be filled in with exposition. That backstory isn’t relevant to the story being told in the film. Some fans expect the film to explain every detail, but that’s not necessary for the story’s focus. Luke’s development in those 30 years, as shown in the film, is different and interesting-his experiences shaped him, and that’s the point.
And for those who believe George Lucas would have done things differently, it’s worth noting that his vision for Luke was similar to what Rian Johnson presented. Johnson didn’t just invent this idea; he was influenced by George Lucas’s original concepts.
And they did, Disney Luke is a useless senile bum who never did anything remarkable after the Empire's defeat except learning how to milk space cows with his hands, and maybe also with his lips.
@@luluflu1140 Another point you mentioned was about the story deconstructing the Jedi's beliefs. Honestly, I think the film needed to do that, because the idea of the Jedi just returning the way they were before is fundamentally flawed. The Jedi were destroyed due to their own hubris-they were so caught up in their self-righteousness that they couldn’t see what was really happening around them. Luke comes to understand this, not because he himself was blinded by hubris, but because he realizes that the Jedi’s core beliefs were flawed. The emphasis on suppressing emotion and detachment creates an emotionally cold environment, and there are countless examples of Jedi turning to the dark side because of these rigid rules.
Their association with the Republic also backfired, and while it’s unclear if Luke’s Jedi Academy was directly involved with the New Republic, it’s important to acknowledge these problems. There’s nothing wrong with discussing these issues. If Rey is going to build a new Jedi Order, it should be modeled after Qui-Gon Jinn’s philosophy-following the will of the Force rather than adhering to a strict, outdated dogma. Qui-Gon believed in listening to the Force itself rather than following traditions set by ancient Jedi. This same idea is reflected in the Darth Plagueis novel, where Plagueis refused to let Palpatine seek out old Sith knowledge because he didn’t want the Sith to become stagnant in tradition. The same thing happened to the Jedi-they became trapped by their own traditions.
So, I think there’s nothing wrong with exploring these ideas, and The Last Jedi was on the right track in doing so. Unfortunately, The Rise of Skywalker undid much of this, likely because Disney was reacting to the backlash The Last Jedi received. It’s clear they were afraid of upsetting the fans further, but honestly, some fans need to take a step back and realize it's just a movie. The level of outrage shows that many people need to go outside and touch grass.