I think I stand with you exactly when you speak of torture in the real world. When it's done in games, movies, and stories, it's more of a personal matter. I (speaking as Josh, and not the Simulationist) definitely see a problem in roleplaying games where players and GMs constantly "justify" torture. I don't mind this if it's the characters who are admittedly evil and performing evil acts, but I worry when the players start to believe those justifications.
I don't believe it never ever works, but it is definitely one of the most inefective methods to get information for sure. And 100% immoral with no justification. It is a 100% useless when determining guilt, the person would admit to anything just to stop the pain. As with information, the person being tortured is as likely to lie than tell anything remotely accurate. I do agree it's horrible. My grandfather's brother was sleep deprived for days when he tried to free his daugther from the government in '74 in Argentina(supported by, guess who, the USA!), because they believe she was a communist and a member of a terrorist organization just because she rented a house to a guy that had weapons in the basement. Even the neighbors didn't know about that. They tortured her as well. She spent 8 years in a various cells without even a trial. Oh, and she was 19 years old when she was captured.
In a torture scenario you begin asking questions for which you already know the answers because of previous intelligence gathering. Every time the BBEG lies he is tortured. When you finally get to the real questions for all the BBEG knows you already know the answers. He is also now extremely afraid of what happens if he is caught lying again. He is also now delirious with pain and exhaustion, can't remember what has already been asked, what lies he gave previously, etc...
This is why "Chain of command" is my favorite Star Trek episode. One of the worst parts about torture is that the victim will say anything he believes will stop the torture. So misinformation is a huge possibility. But I think it's used in fiction often to basically vent, how frustrated the viewer is with the horrible villain and they want him to pay. Much in the same way many people think when it comes to the death penalty. Just outright outrage and emotional reaction in the worst way.
I am not a strict adherent. But I think the concept has a great deal of merit. I would like to think that my karma balance is better today than it was twenty years ago.
I would be equally disturbed by willful murder. I would bring down the consequences as they should apply. If it became a habit I would speak to the player. If it was something they did not want to stop doing, I would bow out of the game. Let them engage in such activities without me.
That is a morally indefensible position to take. Any such character is evil. I would want nothing to do with such a player. Torture is immoral. There is no justification for it. Ever.
Falling into the hands of the Reavers would be an off-screen TPK for me. You only win by not being captured. Getting rid of the Reavers would be a main plot point in any Serenity game I would run. We know how many there are. They are a limited threat. They probably kill themselves off regularly. They would eventually cease to exist.
Particularly because we know some people under torture have lied. Convincingly. Of course even if it were 100% successful (which it is not) it would still be a moral abomination.
I feel the same way. But what i found interesting is that it's one of the few religious matters that have "logic" for me. It's the Third law of Newton (Action/Reaction) itself, but linked to the moral plane.
Excellent video. Torture would be wrong even if it worked ever single time and it provided 100% reliable information. It is not about results at all. It is about setting a precedent. A precedent of giving in. Precedent of lowering yours and the sensibilities of an entire society. Every time moral ground is given, it becomes easier to give more and more. Values that were once clear and untouchable laws, categorical imperatives, become easier and easier to bend and shift.
I agree with everything said. "To save lives" is often an argument used in support of torture, but how can you guarantee it? And is that enough to cross that extreme moral boundary? Back to the PC situation though.. Crunch time.. 1 hour.. What would you do as a player? I've had my PCs punch, threaten, beat on bad guy NPCs for information but never taken it to full blown balls to the wall torture.
What about if it used as a device to show the destruction of the torturer character's moral boundaries? A point of no return, so to speak. I could imagine letting a player do it, but really iterating the utter depravity and monstrousness of it - I would make SURE the player knew that the what the character once was is now dead, and a very dark reflection has taken their place.
About the bankers, that's when reencarnation would come into play. And yes, i've quoted that line of the bible in many religious arguments over youtube, but no one seems to care... good to know someone remember it besides me hehe. I'm just a Theosophy student, don't claim to know anything, I'm trying to find balance in this confuse world of diferent beliefs. The only reason im not an Antheist is that i read so many things already, it would be fool of me to throw it out the window. Peace.
McCain lied to his torturers. When he finally revealed the command structure that he operated under, he gave them his High School football roster. He gave them the truth. And nothing they could use. That is not a great example.
I should have been more clear that I was only responding to the possible effectiveness of torture not the actual morality of torture which are two very different things. Whether torture works or not is utterly irrelevant to the question of whether it is moral or not and on that I think we are in agreement.
can i put the puppies and nuns in separate rooms? evil villains sometimes like to sit in chairs stroking animals and if im going to be evil i'd like the puppies
Whomever uses torture as a storytelling device is not committing real torture neither violating anyone's consent. It's just a story. Characters are not real people. There's no harm there whatsoever.
many rpgs revolve around serial murder tetsubo. have your characters never killed a goblin without trying to reason with it? should they surrender before allowing themselves to commit this evil act or murder? or does 'self defense' suddenly make it okay?
If I felt the scene absolutely, positively *had* to remain in the game, it would be done totally off-screen. I have used torture of a PC. It was never described nor 'viewed'. Off-screen 100%. Now I'm not sure I would even do that.
In the realm of role-playing games, would you consider the scenario you mentioned in the beginning of the video with reversed roles acceptable? If, for example, the bad guy has all the good PCs locked up and they have to hold out against torture for 60 minutes in order to keep the puppies and nuns safe, would you find this more acceptable (as bad guys tend towards evil) than the reverse scenario, or would you feel revulsion towards playing this scenario regardless of being the torturer/torturee?
if someone is tortured for 3 years how could they still have relevant info anyway. it's not the one hour puppies in a room urgency thing, its three years after then and all that time that persons been in captivity.
In real life torture is totally unacceptable. I cannot agree more. If this is an rpg rant and not a real-life topic then torture doesn't bother me. Au contraire, narration wise it can be a springboard for incredibly dramatic stories (read stories with a capital "S"). My games are often cinematic with stun/non-lethal/rubber damage. If torture happen in a game it is often cartoonish. If realistic torture happend we go "wow, that was dramatic..." in a cathartic relief that none of this... is real.
Forgive me if I am mistaken, but it seems that your primary argument is that torture does not work; not that it is immoral. If torture was an effective method of information-gathering, would it be acceptable?
First, let me say that i'm against torture i don't believe it is ever a valid form of interrogation. Now let me say that in the military there is a program that people who have very sensitive information have to go through, in this program we "interrogate" our own personnel. These personal are given fictional facts and told that if they reveal them to their integrator they have to go back to the start of the program. Everyone gives up their fact, everyone. I should mention it's only 14 days
In terms of torture in fiction, I don't agree. The motivations of a character in a story and the goals of the author are not synonymous. Sometimes torture in books and films (never in real life I agree with you 100% there) can be used effectively to convey helplessness or simply sadistic tendencies a character has.
I'm not asking you to. I'm only asking you to accept that some people might be ok with the concept and this is not morally wrong. If that's the case, we're fine.
So, you're against the idea of torture as a plot device too?or a character "choice" or non choice for the same reasons? I appreciate the moral position you take, and I'm not arguing, but this was labeled as both a moral, and an RPG rant, so i just would like your position on it for the RPG side a s your argument seemd based more in morality...Or was that the point? :) If so? Consider my question retracted;
violence in general is wrong tetsubo. but unfortunately highly effective, used very frequently. and often glorified. i don't understand how you can play rpgs with so much violence in them and yet arbitrarily draw the line at torture. your name itself is a weapon! are you telling me you are against violence when you have such a large collection of weapons? why do you collect them then?
Why is this marked as part of your RPG series Tetsubo? Please sir, I ask you to remove RPG from the title of the video as discussing the real world morality of torture has nothing to do with roleplaying.
Because I have heard or read endless 'justifications' for torture by characters within tabletop role-playing games. Don't want to see torture linked with RPGs? Go talk to the people linking torture to RPGs.
What are you classing as torturing a helpless person in an RPG? Say the PC's are playing a hard-nosed cop game in the style of Dirty-Harry or The Sweeny set in the 1970's or 80's. They are having fun with the stero-typical action and in-keeping with the theme of the game are having to physically rough up gang members or suspects that they are interrogating. One of the PC's twists the suspects arm behind his back and pins him to a table in the interview room and growls "tell us where the drugs are you slag." Now the suspect in question is a 1970's stero-typical street hood (maybe a pimp) and the player is a cop-on-the-edge. But if you look at the situation in black and white this is a police officer torturing a helpless prisoner. But that's not really the case, is it?
Yes, yes it is. There is no 'context' for torture. It was wrong in the 1970s and it is wrong now. But the inspiration for this video was a justification for torture in a RPG because it is so 'efficient' in the real world.
So if you (as the GM) put your players in a situation where torture is an option (the wrong option but go with me) and they opt for torture in character are you going to stand in moral judgement of your players out of character? Would you pack up your RPG and not play with these people because they decided that roughing up a goon to find out where the poison gas was the fastest option when they were against the ticking clock? I mean, hell, depending on your definition of torture, Batman tortures people....and if you're players were doing Batman-level stuff and you still didn't like it......I mean you (as the GM) have engineered the situation..... I don't know of any (sane) group of PCs that scoop up NPCs off the street and start pulling out their fingernails etc for weeks at a time. And if they do and the GM is okay with this then this is not the group that anyone should be RPGing with. And if they are okay with water-boarding NPC's then I'm pretty sure that your anti-torture sentiment will not get through into their sick minds. Just please don't tar the rest of us who enjoy a bit of grit in our roleplaying with the same brush.
Victims of torture will tell their interrogators whatever it is they want to hear.
What he's saying about torture is true and I love his soft voice is this video
I think I stand with you exactly when you speak of torture in the real world. When it's done in games, movies, and stories, it's more of a personal matter.
I (speaking as Josh, and not the Simulationist) definitely see a problem in roleplaying games where players and GMs constantly "justify" torture. I don't mind this if it's the characters who are admittedly evil and performing evil acts, but I worry when the players start to believe those justifications.
It fulfills the torturers need for 'vengeance'.
We stopped being the 'good guys' before the ink was dry on the Declaration...
Oh no! The puppies! *cries*
good vid, agreed on the points made.
Morality requires a true sapient mind. This is why animals under an alignment system would always be Neutral. Just as should mindless undead.
I don't believe it never ever works, but it is definitely one of the most inefective methods to get information for sure. And 100% immoral with no justification. It is a 100% useless when determining guilt, the person would admit to anything just to stop the pain. As with information, the person being tortured is as likely to lie than tell anything remotely accurate.
I do agree it's horrible. My grandfather's brother was sleep deprived for days when he tried to free his daugther from the government in '74 in Argentina(supported by, guess who, the USA!), because they believe she was a communist and a member of a terrorist organization just because she rented a house to a guy that had weapons in the basement. Even the neighbors didn't know about that. They tortured her as well. She spent 8 years in a various cells without even a trial. Oh, and she was 19 years old when she was captured.
In a torture scenario you begin asking questions for which you already know the answers because of previous intelligence gathering. Every time the BBEG lies he is tortured. When you finally get to the real questions for all the BBEG knows you already know the answers. He is also now extremely afraid of what happens if he is caught lying again. He is also now delirious with pain and exhaustion, can't remember what has already been asked, what lies he gave previously, etc...
It would backfire. For every person intimidated you would make a dozen new enemies willing to kill themselves to destroy your nation and it's people.
Be that as it may, they were never confirmed nor discovered in the first place by torture... Only investigation. As they recently confirmed it.
This is why "Chain of command" is my favorite Star Trek episode.
One of the worst parts about torture is that the victim will say anything he believes will stop the torture. So misinformation is a huge possibility.
But I think it's used in fiction often to basically vent, how frustrated the viewer is with the horrible villain and they want him to pay. Much in the same way many people think when it comes to the death penalty. Just outright outrage and emotional reaction in the worst way.
I am not a strict adherent. But I think the concept has a great deal of merit. I would like to think that my karma balance is better today than it was twenty years ago.
I can dig that.
I would never, absolutely never run a scene that had anything to do with rape or sexual abuse.
I would be equally disturbed by willful murder. I would bring down the consequences as they should apply. If it became a habit I would speak to the player. If it was something they did not want to stop doing, I would bow out of the game. Let them engage in such activities without me.
That is a morally indefensible position to take. Any such character is evil. I would want nothing to do with such a player. Torture is immoral. There is no justification for it. Ever.
Falling into the hands of the Reavers would be an off-screen TPK for me. You only win by not being captured. Getting rid of the Reavers would be a main plot point in any Serenity game I would run. We know how many there are. They are a limited threat. They probably kill themselves off regularly. They would eventually cease to exist.
Particularly because we know some people under torture have lied. Convincingly.
Of course even if it were 100% successful (which it is not) it would still be a moral abomination.
It is so bad that you have so few views. You are great.
Kate Kane Thank you for your kind words.
I can see that being done. But not by me. I simply don't want to run that.
Interesting thoughts to ponder for RPG's. Thanks.
I feel the same way. But what i found interesting is that it's one of the few religious matters that have "logic" for me. It's the Third law of Newton (Action/Reaction) itself, but linked to the moral plane.
Excellent video. Torture would be wrong even if it worked ever single time and it provided 100% reliable information. It is not about results at all. It is about setting a precedent. A precedent of giving in. Precedent of lowering yours and the sensibilities of an entire society. Every time moral ground is given, it becomes easier to give more and more.
Values that were once clear and untouchable laws, categorical imperatives, become easier and easier to bend and shift.
I agree with everything said. "To save lives" is often an argument used in support of torture, but how can you guarantee it? And is that enough to cross that extreme moral boundary?
Back to the PC situation though.. Crunch time.. 1 hour.. What would you do as a player?
I've had my PCs punch, threaten, beat on bad guy NPCs for information but never taken it to full blown balls to the wall torture.
What about if it used as a device to show the destruction of the torturer character's moral boundaries? A point of no return, so to speak.
I could imagine letting a player do it, but really iterating the utter depravity and monstrousness of it - I would make SURE the player knew that the what the character once was is now dead, and a very dark reflection has taken their place.
There are five lights!
About the bankers, that's when reencarnation would come into play. And yes, i've quoted that line of the bible in many religious arguments over youtube, but no one seems to care... good to know someone remember it besides me hehe. I'm just a Theosophy student, don't claim to know anything, I'm trying to find balance in this confuse world of diferent beliefs. The only reason im not an Antheist is that i read so many things already, it would be fool of me to throw it out the window. Peace.
McCain lied to his torturers. When he finally revealed the command structure that he operated under, he gave them his High School football roster. He gave them the truth. And nothing they could use. That is not a great example.
Torture is 100% immoral. And any state that uses it is morally bankrupt.
I should have been more clear that I was only responding to the possible effectiveness of torture not the actual morality of torture which are two very different things. Whether torture works or not is utterly irrelevant to the question of whether it is moral or not and on that I think we are in agreement.
Of course I use torture as a plot device. But it is 100% 'off-screen' and the purview of the 'bad guys'.
can i put the puppies and nuns in separate rooms? evil villains sometimes like to sit in chairs stroking animals and if im going to be evil i'd like the puppies
You can't say "torture works because if done correctly I personally would not lie."
I believe that one does not follow from the other.
Whomever uses torture as a storytelling device is not committing real torture neither violating anyone's consent. It's just a story. Characters are not real people. There's no harm there whatsoever.
many rpgs revolve around serial murder tetsubo. have your characters never killed a goblin without trying to reason with it? should they surrender before allowing themselves to commit this evil act or murder? or does 'self defense' suddenly make it okay?
If I felt the scene absolutely, positively *had* to remain in the game, it would be done totally off-screen. I have used torture of a PC. It was never described nor 'viewed'. Off-screen 100%. Now I'm not sure I would even do that.
In the realm of role-playing games, would you consider the scenario you mentioned in the beginning of the video with reversed roles acceptable? If, for example, the bad guy has all the good PCs locked up and they have to hold out against torture for 60 minutes in order to keep the puppies and nuns safe, would you find this more acceptable (as bad guys tend towards evil) than the reverse scenario, or would you feel revulsion towards playing this scenario regardless of being the torturer/torturee?
if someone is tortured for 3 years how could they still have relevant info anyway. it's not the one hour puppies in a room urgency thing, its three years after then and all that time that persons been in captivity.
In real life torture is totally unacceptable. I cannot agree more. If this is an rpg rant and not a real-life topic then torture doesn't bother me. Au contraire, narration wise it can be a springboard for incredibly dramatic stories (read stories with a capital "S"). My games are often cinematic with stun/non-lethal/rubber damage. If torture happen in a game it is often cartoonish. If realistic torture happend we go "wow, that was dramatic..." in a cathartic relief that none of this... is real.
100% truth , Its wrong and evil .
I agree with you.
Torture is 100% immoral. And any state that uses it is morally bankrupt. USA!
Forgive me if I am mistaken, but it seems that your primary argument is that torture does not work; not that it is immoral. If torture was an effective method of information-gathering, would it be acceptable?
First, let me say that i'm against torture i don't believe it is ever a valid form of interrogation. Now let me say that in the military there is a program that people who have very sensitive information have to go through, in this program we "interrogate" our own personnel. These personal are given fictional facts and told that if they reveal them to their integrator they have to go back to the start of the program. Everyone gives up their fact, everyone. I should mention it's only 14 days
Looking at these comments I cannot see why you would expect such negative comments as you hint at in the video tetsubo.
In terms of torture in fiction, I don't agree. The motivations of a character in a story and the goals of the author are not synonymous. Sometimes torture in books and films (never in real life I agree with you 100% there) can be used effectively to convey helplessness or simply sadistic tendencies a character has.
Year 1984.
So...
It's immoral and it does not work (as a method to do anything else than inflict pain).
I'm not asking you to. I'm only asking you to accept that some people might be ok with the concept and this is not morally wrong. If that's the case, we're fine.
So, you're against the idea of torture as a plot device too?or a character "choice" or non choice for the same reasons? I appreciate the moral position you take, and I'm not arguing, but this was labeled as both a moral, and an RPG rant, so i just would like your position on it for the RPG side a s your argument seemd based more in morality...Or was that the point? :) If so? Consider my question retracted;
tetsu,what's your view on Karma?
You are welcome to engage in that if you wish. I will not be joining you.
violence in general is wrong tetsubo. but unfortunately highly effective, used very frequently. and often glorified. i don't understand how you can play rpgs with so much violence in them and yet arbitrarily draw the line at torture. your name itself is a weapon! are you telling me you are against violence when you have such a large collection of weapons? why do you collect them then?
Why is this marked as part of your RPG series Tetsubo? Please sir, I ask you to remove RPG from the title of the video as discussing the real world morality of torture has nothing to do with roleplaying.
Because I have heard or read endless 'justifications' for torture by characters within tabletop role-playing games. Don't want to see torture linked with RPGs? Go talk to the people linking torture to RPGs.
What are you classing as torturing a helpless person in an RPG? Say the PC's are playing a hard-nosed cop game in the style of Dirty-Harry or The Sweeny set in the 1970's or 80's. They are having fun with the stero-typical action and in-keeping with the theme of the game are having to physically rough up gang members or suspects that they are interrogating. One of the PC's twists the suspects arm behind his back and pins him to a table in the interview room and growls "tell us where the drugs are you slag."
Now the suspect in question is a 1970's stero-typical street hood (maybe a pimp) and the player is a cop-on-the-edge. But if you look at the situation in black and white this is a police officer torturing a helpless prisoner. But that's not really the case, is it?
Yes, yes it is. There is no 'context' for torture. It was wrong in the 1970s and it is wrong now. But the inspiration for this video was a justification for torture in a RPG because it is so 'efficient' in the real world.
So if you (as the GM) put your players in a situation where torture is an option (the wrong option but go with me) and they opt for torture in character are you going to stand in moral judgement of your players out of character? Would you pack up your RPG and not play with these people because they decided that roughing up a goon to find out where the poison gas was the fastest option when they were against the ticking clock?
I mean, hell, depending on your definition of torture, Batman tortures people....and if you're players were doing Batman-level stuff and you still didn't like it......I mean you (as the GM) have engineered the situation.....
I don't know of any (sane) group of PCs that scoop up NPCs off the street and start pulling out their fingernails etc for weeks at a time. And if they do and the GM is okay with this then this is not the group that anyone should be RPGing with. And if they are okay with water-boarding NPC's then I'm pretty sure that your anti-torture sentiment will not get through into their sick minds.
Just please don't tar the rest of us who enjoy a bit of grit in our roleplaying with the same brush.
"Bit of grit." I was going to address your other points until I read that line. Now I'm just going to bow out.