Here's an idea: the kick skills should immediately come off CD if you don't actually interrupt anything, that way nobody has to worry about overlapping kicks and you can just instinctively hit the button whenever you see a cast bar, and if someone else interrupts first then no big deal.
Alternative idea: remove all kicks from the game and make your cc skills what you use to interrupt mobs, and balance the mobs and cc skills around that
Its a bad idea imo it will fuck up timings for people, id rather have more visual indicators of important casts that NEED to be interrupted, and overall more visual clearence tbh
As a drummer one of the best learning techniques is the mega slow. You play it really slow and gradually increases speed. At the end youre playing really fast and precise. I bet it would really help
I mean newer players that this would help, probably also don’t have a plater profile that shows the dangerous casts, so they will see 4 slow casts happening and probably not know what’s the important one to interrupt still.
As a healer in the 12 key range the biggest issue I've seen is people not using defensives or if they do, they use it after the damage goes out as you mention. It's got to the point where before the key begins I tell people when they should pop personals for certain boss fights and even then they still don't do it sometimes. I think a lot of dps players simply don't care and just want to do big damage. Mages have been a classic example of this, the amount of mages I've seen not use alter time which is such a strong defensive on a short cd.
After I finish a M+ as a healer without hiccups (dps using defensive / pots / dodging), I tend to thank them for doing it because probably they don't know how much stress takes out from the me.
As a mage, the real issue with alter time is its the only defensive in the entire game that has the chance to put you in a worse spot than you would have been in without it. Most mages, myself included tried using AT and ate crap. So if using an ability is going to end me up in a worse position than had i not used it at all, i have zero incentive to keep eating it until i become picture perfect. I have a dozen other things to improve on that aren't going to screw me, so I'm going to use/improve those first and foremost. I wouldn't even spec into alter time if it weere possible to get my nodes without it.
I have already given up M+ after I hit 2000 in the first week. The initial 9+ 10+ mythic track has stopped me wanting to progress via pugs. They made me feel they don't care pugs and categorize us an inferior group. They made me feel they don't care causal players and throw us into toxic pugs environment. I don't want to beg them for change in Season 1. I switch to something else to keep my mind healthy and away from toxic. I go farm mount xmog etc. :) (i'm a mistweaver)
Me too! WoW used to improve my mental health as a way to unwind and have a little fun. Now it's so exclusive for non-pugs and more toxic than ever for pugs. Now it just demands more money, time, and drain on my mentality. This game is for professionals or people on long term disability.
yea, also quit for the first time since i rejoined S2 of BFA. Just feels like you are punished for playing WoW as a hobby, not as your main job in life.
If they'd make kicks unable to go off if there's nothing to kick, it would prevent so much overlapping of kick CDs in pugs, which might make things a bit easier.
@@ai_serf always fun if people throw around random terms. What the F would a "QA team" have to do with that? That feature is the developers job. Prior to that probably the systems designers job.
With pugs, the hardest part is finding people who are willing to stay and complete the dungeon at 12 even knowing it will not timed. This makes it hard to learn and progress as players. We also have those who do not put the same effort when they go into a key. Just this week a lone I had two 12s broke. One tank came in intentionally pull large at the start to see if he "will surive that" and left after he died. Another accepting a high IO mage player for him to come in to just "test a new build" and continuously dying or butt pulling extra mobs.
You need to learn how to time the dungeon and do the mechanics, if you practice something poorly you will do it poorly. It’s like if you’re taking a class in school and you fail the class, it would be a waste of time to continue staying in the class, you need to drop it and study more or take the prereq or try again next semester.
@@theophrastusvonhoenheim4022 It's more like you have successfully completed the class below multiple times and trying to take the next higher class after. You do the homework for the course in order to successfully complete the course at the end. You don't take the test for the course and retake the course below after failing.
@@lynnreefnerdonly issue with this is that your assume that the other 4 ppl did the lower classes and their homework it’s a team so you can only control you which what leads to the OP point one tank pulling to much and a mage that wanted to brick his key to test a build. It’s not solo content so doing you homework only can get you so far
@@brenden1860 I think we are both trying to say the same thing. The 12s at the moment does not fit well for pugs. Very hard to progress when most are not there to learn. Going in, failing and instant leave. Seems to push more towards set groups that know each other to push higher for the season versus that of the past.
I wish that timing keys had more to do with party DPS throughput and mechanics management than so much pressure on survivability. This would admittedly put pressure on tanks and healers to do more damage, but it would also put a lot more responsibility on DPS players than they’re having to face now.
It kinda is on the dps already. That's why so many people hate the affix and blame it, rather than realising they do bad dps. In my experience, a lot of dps are just plain bad. They have 620gear but can't even do 1m overall dps. And that's why the peril affix hits even harder. Even in pugs it's possible to 2 chest 10 and 11+ keys and I even timed a SV, which is considered one of the worst if you full wipe, after afl full wipe and several deaths. It's already on the dps but it's easier to blame the new affix. Edit: don't get me wrong, the affix can also be the problem and some timers are really tight even with good dps, so it doesnt allow any death. But there are also a lot of dps who are just plain bad and blame affix
@@Ratatoeskrrr Completely. The game over the past 6 or 7 years has raised dsp to be just.. tunnel visioning garbage that cannot do mechanics. It's actually a huge problem, both in dungeons and in raids. DPS is a very easy role, you just need to press your buttons and know what you're doing, it's so stress-free, and the little thing that DPS has to do is manage minor mechanics, while pumping. And one of the reasons why so much dps stinks, is that the game is too easy until it becomes too hard. Anyone can clear their M+10 and get myth gear in the vault, they can gain all the items without at all learning how to play. DPS will be a lot better if the myth gear in the vault was locked behind clearing 12s. This is a problem that WoW has refused to address for many many years - you can get top gear without learning the game at all. Thanks to M+.
It's already on dps. That's why the highest keys are currently completed with prot palas and disc priests. The more dps the less mechanics you have to deal with. If the mob is dead it can't hurt your party anymore and the healer and tank have less to do, can therefore contribute to dps more and that in total speeds up the key..
The main underlying issue is that most players are PUGing, but Blizzard is balancing around top end Pre-Made consistent roster groups. Secondarily the issue of pseudo "infinitely" scaling systems presents itself. The nature of the system is to funnel you into harder and harder keys until you hit a wall. Eventually, everyone hits a wall, and at that point, toxic behavior inevitably ensues. With a psuedo "infinitely" scaling difficulty mode, there is no clear capstone completion moment. There is also the transient nature of M+ groups combined with the minimal time investment on a per dungeon basis. This means long-term cohesion is not as nessecary. Without a consistent group learning M+ becomes a more individual experience. Your mistakes and successes don't carry over as easily to other groups. Adding a timer into the equation exacerbates this further by not allowing moments of pause to discuss techs and stradegies. Removing timers for M+ is, I believe, a tenuous idea. While is does solve some problems it does not solve the problem presented by the "infinitely" scaling difficulty. Players will still feel compelled to push higher keys, where they will again hit a wall. The healer won't be able to manage, the dps will be too low, the tank too squishy, or mechanical execution will be lacking. An hour into the dungeon, patience and morale will have worn thin, members will quit or be kicked for performance, repacements will be hard to find for a half completed dungeon, and many times the group will simply fall apart. Compare this to raids where we see more consistent guild groups, more time investment for a full clear, a shared learning experience, and moments of rest for discussion and banter Additionally, with raiding, the game doesn't push or nudge you into higher raid difficulties upon competion. For the most part a player or guild will indentify with and engage in a specific raid difficulty. You have Mythic raid guilds, AOTC guilds, or Normal/Heroic guilds. A player can find a guild that matches there skill and desired progression. We don't see many Mythic+ dungeon guilds, much less guilds that focus on a particular M+ difficulty range or level. Blizzard needs to address the psycholgy of "infinitely" scaling difficulty which present a vague or non-existant capstone competion moment. Also, they need to consider the nature of transient groups that make up the majority of M+ participation. I believe the removal timers would be beneficial overall, but only if the nudging of players into high difficulties is removed or addressed. I think Keystones should be dungeon specific, however, they should not be level specific. Instead the level should be dictated by character progression much like the Delve tier system. In fact, they could remove keystones entirely by having a selection of daily "Awoken" dungeons like the delve system, which could offer enhanced rewards. This would help funnel players together into specific dungeons while not forcing selection based on keystones. Additionally, introduce intermediate capstone teirs perhaps every 3 difficulty levels, which are identified and labeled clearly in the UI. They could be labeled as such: 1-3 (Explorer) 4-6 (Veteran) 6-8 (Champion) 9-11 (Hero) and 12 (Grand Master) which could be a final ultimate difficulty similar to Mythic raiding. Each teir would offer achievements, rewards, a "transitionary" event to signal completion and a final "coming of age" capstone challenge at the 3rd level of each teir. This way the player can feel a sense of competion and achievement before making what should be a very intentional decision to plunge into a new world of challenges.
Very true, when you also look at how their new affix systems interact with different sections of the player base you can see how it made worse. Increasing punishment for deaths (and now bonus for not dying much) hurts lower tier players more because they die more, especially to mechanics that are irrelevant to key scaling (avoidable one shots, walking into skipped mobs, getting knocked platforms, etc). Also kiss curse while cool help better groups more since they will use them and put out more damage to be multiplied by the buff. Upper tier groups with high damage and low deaths vs bottom tier groups with high deaths and low damage, could see this problem a mile away. This widens the gap in those keys 11 and below significantly. It’s like the old economics lesson from the rich and the poor. If you increase the taxes on what poor people spend a lot on while increasing returns on what the rich have a lot more of you increase the gap between them. I don’t agree with removing timers but rather limiting what they interact with. They add value for io, achievements around them, and seeing improvement more clearly. It would be a better system for the majority of players if blizzard disconnect timers from keys going up or down. Just complete the dungeon to get gear and crests and key goes up. No depletes either. Remove 95% of the toxicity. Players spend huge amounts of time building the most elite group to avoid the feeling of having to repush a lower key with worse players. Many don’t post their key because they don’t want to go through this effort at all. As a result fewer keys are posted, less practice, and the risk and cost of failure prevents most players from being invited to keys unless they are far overqualified (dps mostly). The supposed gains of this ultra punishing system are far outweighed by removing them and focusing on rewarding players for playing and completing keys. If someone wants to spend an hour pushing up each key to get to 10 and fill their fault, they earned it. Doesn’t bother me, my keys are done fast and clean and that’s its own reward. Let players craft their own experiences and how they want to play instead of forcing them into this narrow definition of success.
Just dont give me lower key after I fail, give me 3-5 attempts, like in any other competitive game before you derank, I stopped reading properly, because what youre saying sounds to me like a skill issue, TWW is my first season of playing world of warcraft properly (first time I played was DF and I hit 1.5 rio in 2 weeks and quit) and I timed a 12 like a week ago, pugging, I havent gotten into a 12 afterwards, but that comes with the fact that if you deplete, you go tier down. But the difficulty is not bad, the "hitting the wall" you mention is precisely what happens in every game, idk what you expect, but this is meant to be the highest echelon endgame content and ive been in such in almost any modern esports game you can think of, and I dont think its hard at all, understand the mechanics, there's quazi guy having masterclass for each dungeon and all sorts of resources to learn from, all they need to do is make the dungeon count even if you deplete, thats it, dont give me 50 gold, give me 500 so that I can at least fucking repair my gear, dont cap my crests so that doing dungeons is actually pointless besides rio, thats it, because in FPS games, there is a way to comeback, even if youre losing 10:0 there's still a chance, hence people keep playing, but here, there's no point, if you wipe at 12, whats the point of continuing? 50 gold? That's the real reason people leave and are toxic, because there's only 1 thing that matters and all it takes is one wipe, which can defo happen in 30 minutes among 5 people. also I dont know who's brilliant idea it was to cap gear at 10 key, again, outside RIO, no point finishing key because the gear you get is literally the same as in key 10, if from 12 and above you actually gotten better gear, that'd be different story, people would have reason to finish them or if doing 12+ actually unlocks extra vault slot that'd be something, just something that makes you stay, thats it, no balance changes, no making things easier, just scale rewards with keystone level. Thats what I think after a month of playing the game
I know this is going to sound odd but why not make a follower dungeon mythic plus learning system that has "checkpoints". In this pack you are going to learn how to interrupt these certain casts. If you fail that checkpoint, it starts you back at the checkpoint. In this next pack, you are going to learn how to use your defensive...and so forth. It would be similar to proving grounds but it's the actual dungeons themselves.
this is genius... but it's anti profit and capitalism.. you might be a communist. for blizzard to make money, they must gate all content, including the ability to practice.. why do you the adventure guides are so 90s myspace website, and there's litterally no rules when you join a PVP event for the first time.. a few objectives, but no "rules".... this game is trash, and if the world wasn't so bad I wouldn't play it.
I'm 100% in favor of some sort of decent learning system. We nearly had it with the proving grounds, expand that. Leave follower dungeons as they are though, since they're meant to be a lower level way to run/see the dungeon.
Nice video and I completely agree. I have been progressed to 2.1k first as a monk and I found it is quite hard in M+ from level 8. No one wanted to play with monk because the lack of utilities. Then I reroll to rshaman. Tho I could find more group in M+, but the level of difficulty is going crazy. I have to be fast react and use every skill correctly otherwise it will be punishing. I am just a casual player and would like have fun and relax in the game. Initially I thought M+ is just the way to help players to get gear up for raids, But now I feel it is even hard to get gears in M+.
I'm with you, from the networking to do m+ feels like Linkedin right now, to the interrupts on healers (they MUST be removed ASAP). And they need to do content PUG friendly, because PUGS are the heart of any MMO-RPG. They can do their e-sports still with the right balance, but reducing the m+ key scaling, bringing bad affixes and deadly curses and poisons to the dungeons was a mistake.
And a million things which has to be interrupted. I don't see a reason why a mob should have 2 different spellclasses so he can continue casting after a kick.
It has come down to the point that i am afraid to invite any meta class in keys. The whole thought process of a lot of players trying to do high(ish) keys,12s and up, is not "learn mechanics,improve on how your class plays in keys",but rather "reroll to whatever is meta, get fast invites, brick as many keys as possible till you eventually get carried to success". Fake it till you make and quantity is its own quality and things like that. Are those problems community driven? Yes. But as long as the sole metric of how good a player is at its class,especially in the first season of an expansion,is rio,we will have such issues. At the very least i believe that rio should have some class/spec aspect baked in. A 3.6k warrior in s4 of df had a loooooooooooot more weight than a 3.6k aug.
Jack your suggestion about lengthening out enemy mob casts before a certain key level is absolutely brilliant. This would absolutely help people learn the importance of these kinds of mechanics
It would make it more forgiving but I'm not sure it would make people learn the importance of kicks. Long kick times help people that try but miss kicks, not people where it's not even on the radar and making it so the mobs die before they get casts out isn't going to do much but gloss over that.
@@Nagassh Ye if anything this will enable the one guy in the group that knows what to interrupt get more of the necessary interrupts and thus the rest of the group faces no hardship and learns to ignore the casts (even more). I don't know, I think maybe an audio cue for important casts and/or a warning message (akin to what addons do) might go a longer way.
@ I think if they making the cast quite punishing, while also progressing the cast time reduction across key levels it could work. 6 seconds might be at early levels and then 3, then normal idk. I thought the overall idea is worth exploring.
@@hulkinnly1734 this only works if the actual cast going off chunks someone for 80 to 100% of their health like it does in high keys. If you give someone in a +4 a 5 sec cast timer to interrupt a web bolt that does 5% of their hp, they aren't really gonna learn to kick, if anything it is gonna teach them to ignore it even more.
If they keep designing M+ like mythic raid then I'm just not going to do M+. Most people do not enjoy mythic raid, and they don't enjoy it for good reasons. This entire patch in general has just felt like they want you to either go full casual or compete with the top 0.1% of players. They're actually just designing for 2 extremes and telling everyone else to go screw themselves. This bad design has even bled into the anniversary event, completely scuffing it as well. The raid completely missed the mark on the target audience. The people who enjoy timewalking are in no way shape or form going to clear that raid on HC, even after the nerfs. And even if they could, why would they? Blizzard made heroic-track gear hot garbage this tier so even if they do full clear it every week, it's gear that's worse than what drops from the first few mythic bosses.
Brd has 0 mastery gear which is one of if not the best stat for my main makes this raid simply not interesting. And wiping through a hc raid just for "fun" is not very interesting I would confess.
Been preaching this for a while - we need a dedicated PRACTICE mode, where we can run a key at a certain level without risk of depletion (but timing grants no score). The core issue with M+ in it's current state is that repeatability is a huge problem -- you have to do the mechanics and meet the dps / heal checks THE FIRST TIME YOU SEE THEM which it totally impractical. In mythic raids, you get unlimited pulls and it takes 300+ pulls for everyone to learn. Why are we expected to learn first try in keystones? Really silly to me. Also I love the cast time affix suggestion, very creative!
I share your thoughts on why raids lets you learn the ropes, but not mythic +. Mythic + as it is now feels like a 30 min boss fight. It can be really stressfull in that sense compered to raidbosses
@sts3118 yes, high keys are actually much HARDER than mythic raiding, what makes mythic raiding hard is that you need to carry 20 people instead of 5 :)
I was tanking a 12 NW, and I knew that once we got into the necropolis we would brick it. Interrupts a very important but stops are now very important to not only save people from dangerous mechanics but to give more time to be able to get your kick off cd. Long story short I got blamed for not “kicking” more when the casts that were killing our healer were non interruptible. They had to be hard stopped. I think they need to take story mode and use that AI raid to kill Queen and implement it across all content as a teaching tool with pauses to teach you , kick here, hit this CD, etc. Oh you don’t know how to do this encounter, raid, dungeon, etc. don’t worry you can progress with full tutorials and turn them off when you feel comfortable. That would help ppl learn when the base UI doesn’t teach you anything.
Yeah, this current season just feels like they wanted to smooth damage but nerfed defensives and the damage is still spiky(healer main) and with no real strong way to push health up without cds(disc priest specifically)
Disc is so punishing for missing the slightest thing. I’ve been a resto main for years and I’m eating good this expansion but I’ve branched into disc and god bless you priest mains who can do it lol
oh man with disc it is really stressfull experience, yesterday I did 10+, but I was not fully in the mood, so as soon as you are not focused 100%, every little mistake is a wipe. So hard to get low hp group back to its feet especially during avoiding stuff around people getting far away from you.
Its not just disc, with nearly every healer you need to be like prepared 8 second before the boss even take a breath as anything is obliterating your group. Like mw need to put multiple massive modifiers to keep up, resto druids need to put shit tons of hots, paladins need to pool all the holy power they can and pre-cast precisely virtue or otherwise you are just getting overwhelmed and one bad global and whole party is gone. Damage is more spikey than ever.
What? They didn't nerf anything remotely like that, defensives are still as strong as they were in Dragonflight and healing is still as low as it was in Dragonflight
@@bambuco2 The low healing is the biggest problem. Beginning at ~8 boss stuff kills you if you arent max HP AND either use a defensive or get substantial amount of healing. Now thats okay for abilities you can avoid, but its just too much shit like in Dawnbreaker, Grim Batol or dreaded CoT, where stuff ticks for 6mio Damage over 5 seconds, which is bascially 3 globals... That arent even HPS checks anymore, cause constantly casting until OOM at pre-nerfed Surgeon, i was able to put out like 1,5m HPS, and with that you cant outheal those Boss mechanics. Which kinda feels dumb. Now my ilvl and prob. Skill is high enough to reliably complete/time +10 for Weekly, but it kinda feels wrong, that when you look at the Death counter and the damage taken and realize, that in 80% of the death you could not do anything, cause you only have so much buttons and a single cast roughly every 1,5s...
My biggest eat issue is that Mythic gear now comes from +10 (aka old +20) and crest farming is +8 (aka old +18). That is way too high. Even KSM which was time all 15s which should be time all +5s is now +7 and 8s. Gear overcomes some of the mistakes but also lets you learn the higher affixes. They have moved the goal posts and left players behind so naturally the higher key groups are more selective. I spent over an hour trying to queue for a +8 as 620 ret and just gave up.
I think they need to ask themselves one question every time they come up with an affix. "Could this be forced onto the healer" if the answer is yes, scrap it.
Yeah, I’m stuck trying to get out of the 2.1K IO realm. The killer for me is the amount of no cc. Stuns, kicks, not using defensives really makes a difference. As a healer, I shouldn’t be top 1 or 2 on cc and kicks. Just really feels bad to do an entire key and miss it by seconds or even a minute because people don’t understand how to use their kits yet.
To oppose your view a little, i will say this: the most effective way to keep your team alive is to control mobs through kicks or CC. Top healers constantly use their kicks and cc as it is a way to completely negate incoming damage. Controlling mobs is not in any way limited to certain roles, it is a group job always. If you play a resto shaman f.ex. you should be top 1 or 2 on kicks/cc as your kit is great for that.
To me the biggest issue is that clearly a large % of the playerbase has 0 interest in 'high keys', and rightly so in my opinion. The drop off in participation between +10 and +11 is evident, and the drop off from +11 to +12 is even steeper. In an MMO of course players are going to care about rewards/gearing, if players are concerned about m+ participation thats where the outcry should be. If there was ANY incentive to do a +11 then 10x the players would try to complete them, and then maybe from there a larger form of feedback would occur and 'fix' the issues you mentioned. In my opinion though there's 0 reason for players to overcome those issues if they have 0 tangible (gear, not IO) reason to actually partake in the content. Just my opinion, but I know that my interest in m+ drops off a cliff once I achieve portals, I'd imagine most other portal enjoyers are the same.
That’s what I do, get my portals and do my 8 keys a week to get my 3 myth track options. Don’t touch M+ after that because no reward and it’s beyond punishing if you’re pugging and don’t have a dedicated group. I refuse to pug anymore and will only run keys with a full guild/friend group.
It also doesn't help that the community is so needlessly exclusive even as low as 8s and 9s. I'm a fury/arms warrior, sitting at 622 ilvl sitting at just over 2400. The only thing that gives me anything now is 9s and 10s, but it might take me an hour or 2 just to get into 1 group. I've heard the same issue from my guildies. To make matters worse, people don't seem to want to create consistnat groups anymore. you complete a key, see GG, then everyone dips. When you go through that on a daily basis, it's not a surprise that a large part of the community is like "got my KSH, I'm not dealing with this anymore"
THIS!!! I can't stress how hard/time-consuming it is to get the weekly stuff done now. I used to do 8 8s for myth vault with 3 characters. Now I just don't even bother and try to get it with just one. Crest increase (more grind no one asked for) for alts also are a nightmare and yeah sure, everyone will get 639 for the Gilded discount... + the death punishment. It's fucking crazy they think this is the right direction for things to be.
I'm one of those guys. I don't enjoy the dungeon rotation and I find them most of the time frustrating and overly punishing, putting artificially a shit ton of pressure on the healers where as a dps even if you use all your cds and potions, he'll still struggle. Since there is absolutely 0 incentive ingame to do keys above 10, I simply do not bother, even at 631 ilvl.
It’s just so much wasted time in the m+ system pushing up keys after bricking them. Can’t be bothered. I just spend the first week or two being the fastest to getting all 10’s timed to make sure I can get vault gravy train rolling and enough io to get weekly keys done then I’m done pushing. My pushing friends just invite me to their 11s and 12s after the bricks and I get free io without trying because even they can’t be bothered push up their own keys. It’s miserable experience for not enough rewards. I learned and am having much better time.
A major positive change would also be removing the loss of key level. It does no good on the idea of practicing a 12 when you run it, fail, and go back to an 11 that isn't as punishing. Since losing a key level is happens weather you are 1 second over or 1 hour, people get more far more exclusive about their key. What is the downside of a person sitting at 12, unable to really get to 13, but able to try it multiple times, filling their vault to get a better chance at gear and practice?
I did my first 10 a few days ago and I found it really tough. It also feels weird being stuck at these "low" keys. I am not a great player but it felt better in the past to work up towards 15s and 20s then trying to get to 11s or 12s, which I think will be my limit this season.
The major issue is disbands. If things go well but the mess up is at the end then people just leave because they're not getting the points. It's seriously a huge waste of time. Sometimes 3 or 4 maybe even 5 disband in a row. Some people want the gear. Others just want score. Something needs to change. Add better gear and more crests to delves.
Just add a soloque system like league. Solo/Duo queue is one type of score, 5-man premade is another. Worked very well for PvP, I believe this could work for PvE.
I think a lot of players just plateaued and thats just part of the game. Eventually you just can't go any higher because of your skills. People are stuck in 10s and 11s are people who arn't kicking and using DR much. Its very noticeble as a healer, you will sometimes feel healing a 10 key is harder than 12 because people arn't kicking and using DR properly.
My biggest issue with M+ this season (and In a way raiding) is that if you don’t already have a group of people/friends to run, PUGS are an absolute hell of toxicity. (Especially when playing a healer) Getting in voice chat, for me personally is hard because people can be assh*les depending on how you sound
This has been my experience in M+ also. Basically just trying to get my KSM maybe push KSH idk yet but just the constant toxicity of players and the people who leave after 1 wipe its been very grueling and so much of a pain that sometimes i find myself thinking if its even worth playing anymore. 17 years and this is the first time I've thought of just walking away from the game xD
My challenge was learning the game so that I wasn't the weakest link in my groups and then that turned into being frustrated with other people for the same mistakes that I was making. lol
3:55 This is SOOO true, as a healer making my own groups for even just 9s for crests feels crazy when I'll look at how all of my dps have cleared the dungeon +9 but then pulls all go horribly because there is no CC happening, no interrupts happening, and then these guys have the gall to blame the healer because they are dying. Like no, the mobs chain casting can not be stopped by myself while I'm also healing lol
Other than spikey AF dmg, I feel everything would be nice if there was a better reward system for lower/mid keys - mid/high keys. Reward system needs a revamp for both casual and elite players
One thing that would make pugging easier without affecting very high key pushing people is refunding kick to a 2-3 second cd in case you fail, it doesnt really need to be 2 seconds but the idea of cd refund in case of a miss would help pugging.
for us (me and 3 premades) the hardest part really is finding the last healer, you'd think that having 4/5 members for a dungeon speeds up the time it takes to find a group but no, 15-45 minutes to find a healer, there's this stupidly low amount of people that are willing to play healers and your video just confirms that people just do not want to get into it, it's already so hard to get good at the game without putting tons of hours into research, being a tank and a healer is then just another spike of difficulty imo
Tbf, I watched enough random groups who had several healers queue whom they declined for not having enough score or gear in their eyes. A lot of times, healers and tanks do exist but people are picky and want to get carried by higher score rather than giving a slightly lowerscore a chance. Sometimes the community digs their own grave
@@Ratatoeskrrr Bro I had an Hpaly thanking me for taking him for a 10 before the resett and he did a good job. He was like "I am sure there were better healers." Did not time it but it wasn't even the goal.
@@brave1988brave Well that's great but most groups iam in don't do that. It seems to be an unwritten rule that the leader is always the lowest score and he will never ever invite people on his score or lower. That's 90% of the time reality
The most fun I’ve had in a m+ this season is standing still, blasting first boss of mists. Would it be horrible to have more “how hard can your character go” scenarios instead of “how well can you survive” scenarios being the norm?
I mean where is the challenge in that? Almost every class is easily picked up in terms of rotation, if you want just a target dummy, there are some in dornogal. But at the sametime, that burn a boss thing does exist, some are heavier mechanics and some are not. I think variety is what makes things more engaging, which is why we don't just have that. And if it's just do more dps, then you run into the problem where if you're gear isn't good enough, it just becomes impossible.
There's literary no challenge in just learning the rotation, learning how your utility works and where to use it in order to make the whole dungeon easier and actually time is where "skill" comes from in this game
I’m surprised that warcraftlogs hasn’t done something like it but how do you make it not toxic. Or more importantly how do you make ppl kick the important volleys and not just run up the kick meter getting all the bolt casts
Toxicity: 1. If the game is providing the info it will be less toxic than when a party member blames you. Like score screen after battleground. Important casts: Blizz can introduce 1 or 2 new cast bar colors and use them to telegraph importants @@AutomaticJak
@@AutomaticJak you can't. Similar to how you can't stop bad dps from blowing cds in bad spots just to damage pad and be on top of the meters. For the same reason having a successful kick give a dps increase (a great incentive to kick) does not work, as every bad dps would immediately unload their kick on the first cast (regardless of it's importance) to score that sweet sweet dps increase. good players always try to learn and improve. bad players will always try to complain and blame anything other than themselves. It's the nature of the game unfortunately. Doesn't matter how much info you give them. The current affixes are a good example of that. they've made em kiss/curse with fairly large benefits and still bad players fail to do them or flat out ignore them cause "it's someone else's problem"
@@AutomaticJak Could have a mob visibly glow/flash a say Pink colour when it's casting an ability that NEEDS to be kicked or someone will likely die. There's ways to communicate that information in the base game that Blizzard just don't utilise or think to use.
You would get wrong data. For example: i play a Demo Warlock so i have only a 45 sec stun/interupt and one masss stun. I play in a Gild Group and we use Discord, so we can say what mobs we will interupt. I tend ti interupt a cast fairly late (i put on curse of tongue so i have more time) so the mob would waste time and cast less often. But more often than not the mob gets then interupted by mass stops or teammates that are panicking that the cast will get through. So more often than not i would interupt less than other NOT because i am lazy or dont know what to kick but because the cast i am assigned to gets kicked by someone else bevor i can do it. Example 2: It matter what cast you kick. You can get a very high kick rate by kicking "normal" spells and ignoring the high dmg spells, heals whatever. Then your group wipes or people die because you didnt kick the group wipe cast but at the end of the dungeons you have the most kicks. Kicking means nothing if you dont kick the right casts. Example 3. There are Classes that have no kicks or kicks on a high cd. i naturally kick fewer casts with my 45 sec cd than a melee with a 15 sec CD. At end of the Dungeon people will yell at you because you kicked 3 times less than class xy, ignoring the fact that your kick has a high cd.
The thing I've always said is they under utilize cc in pve or other ways to prevent people from topping the meters if they're failing mechanics in less punishing ways. I used to use LFR as the example back in the day, I'd say instead of having it where the mechanic does no damage and you ignore it in LFR instead make it so that mechanic stuns the person or fears them or something very noticeable that viscerally prevents them from just shoving dps. If a person keeps standing in the swirly and it keeps stunning them, eventually they'll stop standing in the swirly. Its not the same level of punishment as every swirly 1 shotting you like we currently see in higher level content... it just stops them from pumping which is what they care about. They can recover from this, but its personally something they want to avoid and so its much easier to learn from. Take that idea and apply it more across mechanics. Instead of making it so the bolts 1shot people if you fail to kick it, make it so the bolts put a stacking debuff that lowers your throughput and when it reaches a certain number of stacks you get stunned or silenced or feared etc etc. You still desperately want to stop every single cast in these scenarios, but its not an immediate unrecoverable fail if one goes off... and you have the possibility of trying to recover the mistake. The problem is every knob is damage, and that tends to be binary in that you can either ignore it or it 1shots you which isn't conducive to learning... as opposed to attrition style mechanics that you could potentially recover from but are noticeable and scale down as well.
13:34 exactly jack! I am actually sitting out TWW because Blizz went off the deep end on the complexity and difficulty in small-group content (M+). nice video, agree with many of your pain points you called out, they seem to echo that of my guildmates who still play TWW right now. hope there are changes! I'm a former 3k m+ player myself here
Great suggestions! As a pugger who has previously obtained 2700+ IO on multiple healers and a tank, this season has been a huge struggle for me, and honestly has almost forced me away for good! I’m stuck in the 8-10 range currently, some of that is just being extremely unlucky with gear drops and not increasing in iLVL in over three weeks and some is the pug groups not understanding the content. My biggest issue this season is that everyone seems to make it known that they know your class better than you do. I’m all for suggestions, learning and always getting better but it’s tough to listen to players when it’s 2nd, 3rd or even 4th DPS in the group with 3 total interrupts is telling me how I should be dispelling Devour as an example. If everyone had an opportunity to truly learn their class beyond mashing 4 buttons the groups and experience in general would be better for everyone. The other issue you mentioned - damage is quick and even an experienced healer is having a hard time reacting quick enough. The times I feel like I can react quick enough is the time a purple swirly pops up under my feet forcing me to move and not cast a heal. Healers can no longer just power through like in the past, takes a competent group to move forward.
As a tank and healer main healing output don't matter. It's the cool downs to save a situation that matters this is why most healers really suck in m+ and just a few can manage 10+-12+ keys had a holy priest with over 1.6m healing done and we still wiped same group same key with a shaman instead 600k hps and 1 wipe the whole dungeon. M+ needs to have its own bracket for tuning so specs gets closer to each other in output.
My thing about the kicks and CC's in keys this expac and honestly to a degree in DF. Is that I feel exhausted at the end of keys, due to worrying about the constant CC's and kicks. If I am pugging which I often do these days because while I do have a dedicated group. Doing keys with the boys is less stressful and we will call out our kick targets per the auto marker. In pugs it's completely the wild west and your just hoping someone else isn't picking your target and sniping your kick. So not only did you both kick the same target. But the other guy was faster AND your kick was wasted. So you can't switch to another target and kick that instead. So here is what I would like to see happen. 1. Kick's don't go off if you and another person both kick the same target. Meaning no more sniping who ever is faster their kick goes off. The other person's remains ready. 2. Undo the change to interrupts to CC they made this expac. If a mobs been kicked then they do not instantly go back into casting again.
The exclusive thing is really screwing me over at the 14-15 range. Every tank/healer I've added has invited me, then they're full for a couple nights, then I have to find a new tank to play with. At some point I was 200 IO above title range by having 12s and 13s done before they nerfed the affix, now I have 3 14s and 13s done and I struggle to get into listed groups because I can't get into keys to increase my IO, so my IO is only 3100 and they'll invite the same class that is 3170 IO instead. It's this weird perpetual loop. People I played with at the start of the season who were 100 IO below me are now 100 IO above me, keys are harder because the groups I am invited to now are people who can't meet the DPS/HPS checks of 14s, so I fail more and more keys. I went from being R10 of my class, to R60 solely because I am not getting invited to groups that have also figured out the dungeon. So I sit in queue for 3 hours, don't get invited, my IO falls behind, etc. And that's not necessarily a bad thing that exclusivity exists, but going from all of my runs being top 100 US runs (I had a R10 stonevault at some point) to barely getting into keys is so mentally deflating that it's killing my drive to push keys and it's making me play worse too since I mental boom myself. I'm in 4-5 high key discords, but the last time I tried to post a high key for people to do I get removed from that discord as it probably broke a rule about wanting a carry, even though all I did was link the key and ask if anyone wanted to run it. Also, I always push my keys early, I've always been able to get high rank keys (I did a 22 Neltharus in S2 before they buffed chains, I did a 27 lower kara before they nerfed it in SL). But every season it ends up being like this as I don't know people to play with, so every single season I am able to start really well and play with people that are so much better at the game, and yea it's probably a bit of a carry, but I don't think I am absolute garbage at the game either if I am able to do these keys 2-3 weeks into a season.
I don't know what your issue is, but sitting at (ONLY!) 3100 IO (seems like your flexin' ) and havin' such a wow-crisis is above any good means. Idk your comment seems like it is only written to tell us, that your rio is this high and ur ranks are at this and that place. You write only what you did "I always push key early", "I've been ablte to get high rank keys", "i did this", "I did that", this games is not only about you. People in this game play non-meta classes and don't complain about this at 10/11 even if their class needs some big tuning, and if meta-classes searching for a challenge but play their high keys to make the challenge again "easy" with their meta-class instead of harder, seems paradoxical to me; isn't the idea to push high keys there for the "challenge"? It seems rather people do it for the esteem and to show off., if it woul be for the challenge they would push high keys with non-meta classes, without any consumables and to make it harder maybe take some gear-piece off. ;) META in itself reveals the true nature of meta-slaves, why they play it and for which cause. People forget that this is a game. So what do you want? If you want a fixed group make one or search one. Your puttin sensless pressure on yourself for no good reason at all.
I think the point is that even being inside these niche communities isn't often enough. You need to be one of the main 5 in a competitive and equally skilled team
incoming damage needs to be dropped by 40% and our healing needs to go down by 50-60%. Allow hots to actually mean something, allow mana pools/management to mean something, allow 'mistakes'/not being able to interrupt something other than instant death/wipe and will NOT allow 1 or 2 button full hp heals. If someone is low on health, it will mean they've been hit multiple times from things and will take multiple heals to get back up and to not to have a heart attack if someone is under 80% hp and is now in 1 shot range from anything. This will naturally allow for more FUN, yes fun, in keys and less STRESS. crazy right. Those that want to pull big and know their specs can. Those that want to play safe and know less about the game can do so without stress of getting verbally ripped apart by party members. Their idea of healers doing dps can then actually happen. This will allow for a more gradual increase in difficulty (and progressively teach players the needed mechanics/abilities) while still keeping the same important mechanics that make M+ what it is. There just isn't a big difference between a +2 and a +6 but for higher keys going up 1 or 2 levels is a massive leap. This won't remove the 'elitism' of the upper echelon and gear ilvl. If someone can't do the high end content they shouldn't get the gear but don't make walls that stop people from getting into M+ all together. Also, some specs/classes need some additions/reductions in utility/movement/damage reduction
I think the worst part about this season is trying to get a community of consistent people. I lost my old team at the end of DF and trying to find people who're actually interested is just awful. Most people I knew who did M+ regularly have quit because of all the issues since release. It almost makes it impossible to find groups without pugging every dungeon.
me being one of the quitter who was a M+ hardcorer. I almost only do storyline and then M+ M+ M+. Not even do reputation/renounce stuff. But I gave up this season. So disappointing. I M+ since BFA and never stop. This is the first time.
@@iknow3335 Im almost to the same point, I mean delves give more satisfaction at this point…if something doesn’t change for S2 I will probably give up on it all together
628ilvl warrior 2450 rating. Having a really really hard time getting into 10s, basically don't get invited. I've timed 2 10s and can clearly do them and my ilvl is fairly high but in peak hours like 4pm-10pm on my server I don't get a chance to run them it's the same blockade I faced going from +7 to +8. It's really annoying and depressing to be honest. I enjoy the challenge of higher and higher keys but I don't even get a chance to play the game.
make your oven key... im 624 dps war and im around 2700, but its true that some classes have easier life :D my alt enha shamy after 2 weeks have bigger io than main war :D
Honestly, if the goal of M+ is maximum efficiency and its corresponding rush of the timer. The best thing they can do is: - Make magical damage not be so fatal, like missing an interrupt can easily nuke a player - Remove a lot of mechanics from trash mobs, it is trash, it shouldn't have mechanics more dangerous than some bosses - Make bosses be the focal point which tests if you understand how to do the dungeon/class abilities. I think this will help tremendously with making trash packs less punishing, it would allow people to learn actually important mechanics, and it will put the focus on the bosses being the real checks. So many of the M+ encounters have trash packs that are hundreds of times more dangerous than the bosses. Consider Mists, easily the easiest of the M+ dungeons this season; the gauntlet mobs hit like dumptrucks and are far more dangerous than all 3 bosses combined. In fact, I would wager that it would be possible to tank all 3 bosses at once (minus the annoying tag game) than some of those packs
Ultimately, it comes down to the community at large. It can be toxic to the point it’s not even worth trying out. This is a community that can make it great as long as they can keep their egos in check.
They’re not using the abilities because they don’t have the add-ons not everybody wants to use add-ons, but they want to join mythic’s and it sucks because it puts a lot of stress on everybody else who does
It's compounded by the fact that their isn't enough progression. The key level squish was a mistake. So many players trying to do a 12 that never should have made it "this far"
A good example of the sloppiness of the blizzard is that there is no single place to explain what affixes do.. how should I learn this if the game does not bring this information in a clear and objective way? Because they hide information from players, expect everyone to have the dedication to look elsewhere? It’s pathetic to realize that the company presents you with content that requires refinement, but don’t try the tools so I can learn and refine my skills..
actually love the non direct kick idea. most of kicking difficulty is not actually kicking it, just that everyone ends up overlapping, and even having a focus kick you might need to swap and kick other mob cause someone kicked your focus, and sometimes it can be hard to find the nameplate of the new mob you want to kick. this is exacerbated by a lot in pugs. having a different way to interrupt that is not direct would go a long way in solving that issue
After letting it sink in. I really really like your idea of making affixes the promote learning. For example have certain spells be priority interrupt. If you interrupt those spells you get a buff. Or if you stun certain channeled casts you get a buff. Or if you use a defensive skill and you prevent at least x amount of damage you get a buff. Or maybe everybody gets a debuff based on the damage they took. The member member with lowest debuff also gets a buff. Or if we get only a cd on our interrupt if it interrupts a spell, you could get a stacking buff for each second your interrupt is on cd. I think there are so many ways to teach players to promote the correct usage of the toolkit.
We are an ATOC casual guild that does a lot of M+ content on off raid nights. This M+ season has been brutal. Initially no one wanted to do M+ cause everyone was doing delves since the gear was better and the content was easier. If we do get people wanting to play, our comp is usually very random, and for the first time it feels hard to complete stuff. I know there are meta comps or whatever, but I don't feel like that should be necessary for casual play in sub 10 keys. The change to hard kicks vs stuns has been really difficult as well. Before if you had one or two players using their abilities well, you could usually get stuff done, even if like one player wasn't using interrupts correctly or something. All in all it's just making casual M+, even in lower keys, really difficult to manage and we aren't even pugging. It reminds me of raids in Shadowlands, it's just too punishing for more casual players.
My least favourite thing with Mythic+ as a returning player is how necessary it is. My guild runs Heroics, and when those are done my opportunities to progress my character basically end there for the week. I like doing dungeons, loved them in earlier expansions - don't object to hard dungeons. Just not a fan of the speedrun style of M+ But other than farming delves for 2 Runed per delve there's really no way to get past gear around 606. There's so many currencies like Kej, and Undercoins, and Resonant Crystals, and Renown gear, and crafted gear and it's all just a glut at the 580-600 level. I find myself looking at renown vendors and trying to figure out who this gear is for because it's out of date by the time you can get it. And instead, I'm just waiting for next weeks raids because the only other option is speed running Mythic+
The amount of m+ you have to do to actually get any gear drops is wild. Getting crests to upgrade is good and all. But when you can go multiple days with no drops… feels bad
the crest system is so atomic bomb level bad in this season, i dont understand anyone saying anyone positive about it. you start at 1/6 and you get only 90 per week, this is the worst state a system in wow has ever been.
@richie1496 I rounded down. If you wanna know exactly my IO, it's 2475. I've timed three tens and just need one more for my 2500. But it's annoying getting declined cause I'm not a resto shammy I had applied too ten earlier, and then moments later, the guy updated the title to the key, saying "LF resto shammy only," and then declined my app.
difficulty in going up the keys is insane. The feeling that keys with casual players is just not going to happen. Needing perfect game play in kicks, stops and using your toon to the fullest is exhausting. End of the day the resulting factor this is a game is becoming less appealing to log in and deal my own level of toxicity over a game on invites and key groups vs playing another game for that enjoyment factor.
The problem is coming from the wall they set up in 12's. You have a large number of players getting into 12's without ever learning a single mechanic and now all of a sudden everything kills you, the way you fix that is you make those things kill you at a lower key level that's it.
Honestly I've played healer my since I started playing wow on vanilla after I do 8 10 keys for the vault I've felt so drained Honestly doesn't make me want to play keys
I think one thing that really gets in the way is that there are a lot of carries, people with slightly higher ilvl carrying others, but when these people start doing higher keys they know absolutely nothing about the mechanics, defensives, interrupts, etc. Love your content, Jak. Greentings from Brazil.
As a mythic raider, I have really come to dislike M+. Big part of that is as a tank, people get upset if I do any route of my own. That coupled with keys being required HW for vault slots and upgrade currency, it’s really snowballing negatively in my mind. I know I can run it with guildies and that goes better, just a negative part of my gameplay I wish I didn’t have to interact with at all. #GiveDelvesCrestsAndMythicVaultGear
Awesome takes on M+.. i think the challenge's peril should grow in a curve, like from 8-11 it's 10sec penalty, and 12+ could be 15sec.. No idea why they didn't do this, instead of giving some "free deaths". Also teaching people and preparing for a more difficult content is a perfect idea to make the game better, 100% agree.
I remember a long time ago, one of the time walks dungeon events, you needed to use 5 interrupts inside the dungeon to progress. They should do more things like that. Also, in delves, there should be some cast to one-shot players if not interrupted. People would learn a little bit better in this way.
I've played and pushed m+ ever since legion and this is the first time ever that I actively do not want to do keys and simply do them as a weekly chore, the damage is so so bursty and it feels like if my teammates don't pool defensives in a co-ordinated way with my healer cds especially for the big grpwide damage bosses then i as the healer just have to helplessly watch as my party die without me having the globals to begin to respond, its not that we've never had stuff like this before (HoV storm phase boss for eg) but the bursty aoe is just EVERYWHERE, I think you're right that health pools need to be higher bcos we simply need more time to actually cast/deal with things
Totally agree with 7:22 -- the largest difficulty is finding a good group. People who run M+ in an organized fashion talk about M+ like it's fun and actually involves gameplay. For the rest of us who PUG, M+ is a poisonous brew of ignorance and/or interpersonal conflict. I barely have the taste to seek out a group even once, every couple of weeks, because I'd rather fill my leisure time with non-toxic activity. As you say, Jak, for must of us this is just a game. Speaking of what the game doesn't teach you: it doesn't even explain what to do with your keystone once it's in your bag. I needed a 3rd-party website to learn that you "use" it somehow, and then I needed a patient guildmember to point out that there's a pedestal to drop my keystone into. Meanwhile I'm loving delves, because I get to test myself against the difficulty of the content... instead of against the difficulty of navigating verbal abuse.
Like what @fadingdimension said. "The main underlying issue is that most players are PUGing, but Blizzard is balancing around top end Pre-Made consistent roster groups" - This is so 100% true. Im at all dungeons at +11. I only pug. I dont WANT to get into a grp with ppl on voice. I want to enjoy the key what ive ALWAYS been doing, pugging, on my own, without voice. This has been totally fine, in ALL the expansions before, in ALL the seasons before. But now? No, very, very hard at 12 and above.
It’s spending like 40mins and above that is the issue looking for a group. As someone that pushes for title every season this one has been the worst for it. They either need to implement a queue where you join random players with ur keystone level and then if it depletes you all deplete your key level. If a player leaves only that players key should deplete. Either that or with the current system you should be able to place a rune by crafting or doing certain activities where you install it into the keystone and when a key is used it will stop the key from down leveling if you fail. This way players will more likely invite you if your willing to use your rune.
The biggest problem is not the difficulty, it the level of gear available for said difficulty. The gear you may (or more likely won’t receive) is not the gear that the person who just overcame that difficulty would actually need.
Meanwhile, I'm over here impressed that with a key squish and an actual affix overhaul we have the same Timed keys/Completed keys success rate as S1 DF at 78%
I won't lie, as soon as I saw the changes to M+ during WW beta, I completely wrote off M+ since I usually pugged it, the changes just looked like they would make the pug experience so much more miserable then it already was. Looking at M+ now, I am so glad that I have not tried to do it at all this season, which I am also sad about.
I really like the idea of dangerous casts being slower in lower lvls. Though I wouldn't jump from slow to faster/normal at keylvl X, just speed it up a bit every next keylvl until you get t o the lvl you want it to be normal cast time at. Alternatively, change the UI so that the dangerous ones stand out over the normal ones, something a lot of players use an addon like plater for atm. Or hell, do both.
I think one problem blizzard hasnt learned over the years , specially when they released df & new talent trees, is that they should make all class tuned around the same level from the ground(talents/baseline kit), so it remains for years , and instead adjust /buff/nerf : tier sets/heroic talents/dungeons & affixes each season, instead of having issues from talents/core class gameplay carrying from seasons to seasons (& xpacs too apparently).
Gearing this season is a nightmare. As someone who enjoys raid and M+, needing two completely different sets of gear to be effective in both settings is a time commitment I don't have. I wouldn’t call myself a causal player and I still can’t gear properly for both settings. It feels like Blizz is trying to force me to choose to either raid or M+.
Thank you so much for this video! Even if addons and third party resources, I'm struggling with the working memory and processing speed to even run keys lower than 10 and with dungeons changing so often, it feels even harder to figure out. Because of this, I end up changing what class I'm playing each season, which makes it all that much harder as well. Though discovering healing was amazing and let me start getting portals. Big issue with healers though, theres only one per group, and so trying to figure out how to be flexible and just basically get any keys done at all when pugging like you said isnt very fun. I've been having a bit of fun with aug this time around at least, though I dont have any portals yet, I do have almost all my gear at 619.
As a more casual player, my questions is always, why? Why spend so much time learning and perfecting mechanics at such a high level, just for a few more item levels on my gear? The payoff is not nearly rewarding enough.
I 100% agree with this but it’s happening at even lower key levels than you cited. In previous seasons I’ve been able to PUG portals but now I’m using guildies/friends for 7/8 level keys due to the crazy skill/communication gap.
For me I always loved the natural progression in difficulty that M+ provided. I think with the introduction of excess difficulty at 10's and 12's it's created too steep of a learning curve, I think that compounded with the gear rewards also being locked behind 10's has created a fairly unrewarding experience at vital points.
There should be signals that show a cast is dangerous without having to get a plater profile, and def the CC stopping casts thing needs to be back. In pugs people often overlap kick with a knock up now their kick is wasted and the mobs are casting over and over again.
One of the aspects of M+ I fell in love with was the sense of progressing by doing bigger and/or more crazy pulls or more technical routing but now it is mostly just press W and only pull 1 pack at a time. If you do anything else you are more then likely wasting your time because your not ever going to be rewarding for this in the middle to low keys and in all keys you are super punished for a mistake that is most likely going to snowball into a massive mistake. Also I know it has always been this way but it has never felt this bad. I tank a 9 for my friends alts and we easily 2 chest it but I go into a 6 or 7 pug and we are likely failing or barely timing it even with sub 5 deaths. Massive delta right now.
I maybe have done a handful of M+ and used to have a deadicated night for it in previous expansions, mythic+ is way too intimidating this xpac I dont really want to bother with it. Just add mythic gear to delves. Flex group sizing and an easier ride.
The main issue I have as a healer is that my IRL friends are no where near where my guild is talent wise. I used to be able to push 20s with my guild and on off nights still help my friends through 15 to 18 now they are having issues with 4s lmao this is crazy.
It's no fun in a PUG with willing kickers for multiple players to be punished for using their kick on the same mob spell, and have none or few left over to counter other spells. Then your left with people holding their kicks so as not to waste it and to late realizing that indeed they should have kicked. This often spells doom for pug groups. A buff on the mob preventing other kicks after the first for a few seconds would allow people to kick freely without fear of wasting and dooming the group to failure.
I think the incoming damage improved from DF where everything legit felt like it was just about living all the oneshots, whereas now you more often die over 2-3 ticks aktuelle making self heal or a healpot valuable
2726 pres evoker. Very frustrating applying to 20 groups, getting in there finally after an hour or 2, and then we wipe in the first pull of city or SV to bolts and curses going off. I was able to pretty consistently get in before hitting the +12 wall. Now if you’re not a priest or a shaman and have a 12 done already, you aren’t allowed to play the game.
I'm convinced Challenger's Peril was made as a punishment for DPS because historically DPS are the ones that do not get punished for mistakes, but the affix has now just become a blanket punishment for the entire group.
One part of the problem is that dungeon progression has no option to cater to people not interested in speed over all. This funnels EVERYONE who likes dungeons into a system that really doesn't work for everyone. And then, when you shove all of these people who don't have the same goals into one system that isn't designed for a lot of those people... you create differing expectations and these differing expectations lead to problems.
You're thinking to high up the keys #, if you haven't timed a few 7's good luck getting in a group, if you then haven't timed some 8s good luck getting into a group, if you haven't timed some 10s good luck getting into a group... at every breakpoint of gear level increase and of every level of crest level increase is a gate that you have to get through to be able to start pushing higher yet again
I really only play with guildies in keys. We have a robust community, so tons of folks to play with. But, like any other community there is a wide variety of skills. I agree with folks here in regard to the change in key difficulty levels between expansions. In dragon flight, seasons 3 and 4 were very open access to higher keys and now it is not. Folks are not adjusting well. Now, keys really aren’t the way to get better gear for your raid team (ie getting mythic track gear to out gear the aotc raid). Add to that I can’t get my heroic gear upgraded because I can’t get accepted into a 9 key, I am stuck doing 7s with no opportunities to get better gear. (Yes, the recent change for 8s should help a little). Add to that the horrible imbalance of specs, the difficulty levels of individual dungeons and affix’s, dungeons just aren’t any fun anymore for me. And they are why I play wow!
I really don't understand why people complain about "pugging a +(insert above 10 number here) is too difficult". Rewards cap at a +10, so anything beyond a 10 only has one incentive - prestigious achievement. It's supposed to be difficult. It's supposed to lean on player skill. It's supposed to start requiring coordination and communication. We don't expect people to faceroll a mythic raid without some form of coordination, why do we expect it from a +12 key pug?
i 100% agree that defensives and crowd control should be removed from all dps classes. This will allow dungeon damage to be tuned back to provide more consistent, less spiky damage.
So many players got boosted to the +12 key range by pugging with very skilled players early on, and now that other people have caught up those 2750ish io people who rushed up the ladder are stuck because their isn't those .1% players to carry them
Oh also, +12s are just better to fill the vault with half the time because the player pool is normally better (people LF nerd score generally try harder) and no affix is pretty nice 👍
The slower cast in lower keys would need be accompanied but more health on enemy mobs otherwise you don’t have time to see all of the mechanics. Also this might create another chasm as with 12s this season where getting to the key level that loses this bonus feels exceptionally hard. So the point about linear progression kind of goes against this a bit. Good good for thought though
This change does not address the core issue of the affix. This affix does NOT exist if your team plays well. It does exist and ruins keys if you misplay ONCE. No affix punishes mistakes except with death, but here its death + whats essentially 2 more deaths.
I think the concern over more and more people getting to 12s, hitting that wall, becoming frustrated, and unsubbing is only a concern if you think unsubbing for periods of time is a concern. I personally don't see the problem with hitting slow points in a patch and playing less or not at all.
Here's an idea: the kick skills should immediately come off CD if you don't actually interrupt anything, that way nobody has to worry about overlapping kicks and you can just instinctively hit the button whenever you see a cast bar, and if someone else interrupts first then no big deal.
Alternative idea: remove all kicks from the game and make your cc skills what you use to interrupt mobs, and balance the mobs and cc skills around that
Yeah or even if was a reduced cd
This is the best idea. Will be more forgiving to PUGs
The slower cast in lower keys is a great idea
God, yes! It is actually a godlike idea
Its a bad idea imo it will fuck up timings for people, id rather have more visual indicators of important casts that NEED to be interrupted, and overall more visual clearence tbh
As a drummer one of the best learning techniques is the mega slow. You play it really slow and gradually increases speed. At the end youre playing really fast and precise. I bet it would really help
Agreed!
I mean newer players that this would help, probably also don’t have a plater profile that shows the dangerous casts, so they will see 4 slow casts happening and probably not know what’s the important one to interrupt still.
I'm pretty sure that M+ is balanced and designed for the MDI, not for the playerbase
As a healer in the 12 key range the biggest issue I've seen is people not using defensives or if they do, they use it after the damage goes out as you mention. It's got to the point where before the key begins I tell people when they should pop personals for certain boss fights and even then they still don't do it sometimes. I think a lot of dps players simply don't care and just want to do big damage. Mages have been a classic example of this, the amount of mages I've seen not use alter time which is such a strong defensive on a short cd.
dps players unironically think you are supposed to just heal through all the damage they take no matter how high it is
@lilypadsy yeah ive noticed this. This is why when i do notice a dps that uses kicks/walls/utility i go out of my way to thank them.
Same with mages. Some drive me nuts. I see everyones personals and some just flat out don't use any but for some reason, mages seem to be the worst!
After I finish a M+ as a healer without hiccups (dps using defensive / pots / dodging), I tend to thank them for doing it because probably they don't know how much stress takes out from the me.
As a mage, the real issue with alter time is its the only defensive in the entire game that has the chance to put you in a worse spot than you would have been in without it. Most mages, myself included tried using AT and ate crap. So if using an ability is going to end me up in a worse position than had i not used it at all, i have zero incentive to keep eating it until i become picture perfect.
I have a dozen other things to improve on that aren't going to screw me, so I'm going to use/improve those first and foremost. I wouldn't even spec into alter time if it weere possible to get my nodes without it.
I have already given up M+ after I hit 2000 in the first week. The initial 9+ 10+ mythic track has stopped me wanting to progress via pugs. They made me feel they don't care pugs and categorize us an inferior group. They made me feel they don't care causal players and throw us into toxic pugs environment. I don't want to beg them for change in Season 1. I switch to something else to keep my mind healthy and away from toxic. I go farm mount xmog etc. :) (i'm a mistweaver)
Me too! WoW used to improve my mental health as a way to unwind and have a little fun. Now it's so exclusive for non-pugs and more toxic than ever for pugs. Now it just demands more money, time, and drain on my mentality. This game is for professionals or people on long term disability.
@@Hellolibris How exactly does it demand more "money"? The game costs the exact same it always has.
@@Hellolibris For real I notice myself being in general in a bad mood when I play wow, it's just pure stress in many forms
yea, also quit for the first time since i rejoined S2 of BFA. Just feels like you are punished for playing WoW as a hobby, not as your main job in life.
If they'd make kicks unable to go off if there's nothing to kick, it would prevent so much overlapping of kick CDs in pugs, which might make things a bit easier.
yessssssssss
after getting kicked, a mob can't be kicked by other players.. a QA team that's good should be able to do this.
Agree. Wish it worked like dispels where it doesn't go on CD if it didn't dispel anything.
@@ai_serf always fun if people throw around random terms. What the F would a "QA team" have to do with that?
That feature is the developers job. Prior to that probably the systems designers job.
No, just get some friends
With pugs, the hardest part is finding people who are willing to stay and complete the dungeon at 12 even knowing it will not timed. This makes it hard to learn and progress as players.
We also have those who do not put the same effort when they go into a key. Just this week a lone I had two 12s broke. One tank came in intentionally pull large at the start to see if he "will surive that" and left after he died. Another accepting a high IO mage player for him to come in to just "test a new build" and continuously dying or butt pulling extra mobs.
Because not timing it has a shit reward and nothing for IO, they need to take away the reduced crest.
You need to learn how to time the dungeon and do the mechanics, if you practice something poorly you will do it poorly. It’s like if you’re taking a class in school and you fail the class, it would be a waste of time to continue staying in the class, you need to drop it and study more or take the prereq or try again next semester.
@@theophrastusvonhoenheim4022 It's more like you have successfully completed the class below multiple times and trying to take the next higher class after. You do the homework for the course in order to successfully complete the course at the end. You don't take the test for the course and retake the course below after failing.
@@lynnreefnerdonly issue with this is that your assume that the other 4 ppl did the lower classes and their homework it’s a team so you can only control you which what leads to the OP point one tank pulling to much and a mage that wanted to brick his key to test a build. It’s not solo content so doing you homework only can get you so far
@@brenden1860 I think we are both trying to say the same thing. The 12s at the moment does not fit well for pugs. Very hard to progress when most are not there to learn. Going in, failing and instant leave. Seems to push more towards set groups that know each other to push higher for the season versus that of the past.
I wish that timing keys had more to do with party DPS throughput and mechanics management than so much pressure on survivability. This would admittedly put pressure on tanks and healers to do more damage, but it would also put a lot more responsibility on DPS players than they’re having to face now.
It kinda is on the dps already. That's why so many people hate the affix and blame it, rather than realising they do bad dps. In my experience, a lot of dps are just plain bad. They have 620gear but can't even do 1m overall dps. And that's why the peril affix hits even harder. Even in pugs it's possible to 2 chest 10 and 11+ keys and I even timed a SV, which is considered one of the worst if you full wipe, after afl full wipe and several deaths. It's already on the dps but it's easier to blame the new affix.
Edit: don't get me wrong, the affix can also be the problem and some timers are really tight even with good dps, so it doesnt allow any death. But there are also a lot of dps who are just plain bad and blame affix
It’s already like this
@@Ratatoeskrrr Completely. The game over the past 6 or 7 years has raised dsp to be just.. tunnel visioning garbage that cannot do mechanics. It's actually a huge problem, both in dungeons and in raids. DPS is a very easy role, you just need to press your buttons and know what you're doing, it's so stress-free, and the little thing that DPS has to do is manage minor mechanics, while pumping.
And one of the reasons why so much dps stinks, is that the game is too easy until it becomes too hard. Anyone can clear their M+10 and get myth gear in the vault, they can gain all the items without at all learning how to play. DPS will be a lot better if the myth gear in the vault was locked behind clearing 12s. This is a problem that WoW has refused to address for many many years - you can get top gear without learning the game at all. Thanks to M+.
It's already on dps. That's why the highest keys are currently completed with prot palas and disc priests. The more dps the less mechanics you have to deal with. If the mob is dead it can't hurt your party anymore and the healer and tank have less to do, can therefore contribute to dps more and that in total speeds up the key..
This is how it was and look how its turned out..... anyone can look up an icy veins rotation and do dps. Mechanics are survivability
The main underlying issue is that most players are PUGing, but Blizzard is balancing around top end Pre-Made consistent roster groups. Secondarily the issue of pseudo "infinitely" scaling systems presents itself.
The nature of the system is to funnel you into harder and harder keys until you hit a wall. Eventually, everyone hits a wall, and at that point, toxic behavior inevitably ensues. With a psuedo "infinitely" scaling difficulty mode, there is no clear capstone completion moment.
There is also the transient nature of M+ groups combined with the minimal time investment on a per dungeon basis. This means long-term cohesion is not as nessecary. Without a consistent group learning M+ becomes a more individual experience. Your mistakes and successes don't carry over as easily to other groups. Adding a timer into the equation exacerbates this further by not allowing moments of pause to discuss techs and stradegies.
Removing timers for M+ is, I believe, a tenuous idea. While is does solve some problems it does not solve the problem presented by the "infinitely" scaling difficulty. Players will still feel compelled to push higher keys, where they will again hit a wall. The healer won't be able to manage, the dps will be too low, the tank too squishy, or mechanical execution will be lacking. An hour into the dungeon, patience and morale will have worn thin, members will quit or be kicked for performance, repacements will be hard to find for a half completed dungeon, and many times the group will simply fall apart.
Compare this to raids where we see more consistent guild groups, more time investment for a full clear, a shared learning experience, and moments of rest for discussion and banter
Additionally, with raiding, the game doesn't push or nudge you into higher raid difficulties upon competion. For the most part a player or guild will indentify with and engage in a specific raid difficulty. You have Mythic raid guilds, AOTC guilds, or Normal/Heroic guilds. A player can find a guild that matches there skill and desired progression. We don't see many Mythic+ dungeon guilds, much less guilds that focus on a particular M+ difficulty range or level.
Blizzard needs to address the psycholgy of "infinitely" scaling difficulty which present a vague or non-existant capstone competion moment. Also, they need to consider the nature of transient groups that make up the majority of M+ participation.
I believe the removal timers would be beneficial overall, but only if the nudging of players into high difficulties is removed or addressed. I think Keystones should be dungeon specific, however, they should not be level specific. Instead the level should be dictated by character progression much like the Delve tier system. In fact, they could remove keystones entirely by having a selection of daily "Awoken" dungeons like the delve system, which could offer enhanced rewards. This would help funnel players together into specific dungeons while not forcing selection based on keystones.
Additionally, introduce intermediate capstone teirs perhaps every 3 difficulty levels, which are identified and labeled clearly in the UI. They could be labeled as such: 1-3 (Explorer) 4-6 (Veteran) 6-8 (Champion) 9-11 (Hero) and 12 (Grand Master) which could be a final ultimate difficulty similar to Mythic raiding. Each teir would offer achievements, rewards, a "transitionary" event to signal completion and a final "coming of age" capstone challenge at the 3rd level of each teir. This way the player can feel a sense of competion and achievement before making what should be a very intentional decision to plunge into a new world of challenges.
Very true, when you also look at how their new affix systems interact with different sections of the player base you can see how it made worse. Increasing punishment for deaths (and now bonus for not dying much) hurts lower tier players more because they die more, especially to mechanics that are irrelevant to key scaling (avoidable one shots, walking into skipped mobs, getting knocked platforms, etc). Also kiss curse while cool help better groups more since they will use them and put out more damage to be multiplied by the buff. Upper tier groups with high damage and low deaths vs bottom tier groups with high deaths and low damage, could see this problem a mile away. This widens the gap in those keys 11 and below significantly. It’s like the old economics lesson from the rich and the poor. If you increase the taxes on what poor people spend a lot on while increasing returns on what the rich have a lot more of you increase the gap between them.
I don’t agree with removing timers but rather limiting what they interact with. They add value for io, achievements around them, and seeing improvement more clearly. It would be a better system for the majority of players if blizzard disconnect timers from keys going up or down. Just complete the dungeon to get gear and crests and key goes up. No depletes either. Remove 95% of the toxicity. Players spend huge amounts of time building the most elite group to avoid the feeling of having to repush a lower key with worse players. Many don’t post their key because they don’t want to go through this effort at all. As a result fewer keys are posted, less practice, and the risk and cost of failure prevents most players from being invited to keys unless they are far overqualified (dps mostly). The supposed gains of this ultra punishing system are far outweighed by removing them and focusing on rewarding players for playing and completing keys. If someone wants to spend an hour pushing up each key to get to 10 and fill their fault, they earned it. Doesn’t bother me, my keys are done fast and clean and that’s its own reward. Let players craft their own experiences and how they want to play instead of forcing them into this narrow definition of success.
"Most players are PUGing, but Blizzard is balancing around top end Pre-Made consistent roster groups." Is an amazing point
Just dont give me lower key after I fail, give me 3-5 attempts, like in any other competitive game before you derank, I stopped reading properly, because what youre saying sounds to me like a skill issue, TWW is my first season of playing world of warcraft properly (first time I played was DF and I hit 1.5 rio in 2 weeks and quit) and I timed a 12 like a week ago, pugging, I havent gotten into a 12 afterwards, but that comes with the fact that if you deplete, you go tier down. But the difficulty is not bad, the "hitting the wall" you mention is precisely what happens in every game, idk what you expect, but this is meant to be the highest echelon endgame content and ive been in such in almost any modern esports game you can think of, and I dont think its hard at all, understand the mechanics, there's quazi guy having masterclass for each dungeon and all sorts of resources to learn from, all they need to do is make the dungeon count even if you deplete, thats it, dont give me 50 gold, give me 500 so that I can at least fucking repair my gear, dont cap my crests so that doing dungeons is actually pointless besides rio, thats it, because in FPS games, there is a way to comeback, even if youre losing 10:0 there's still a chance, hence people keep playing, but here, there's no point, if you wipe at 12, whats the point of continuing? 50 gold? That's the real reason people leave and are toxic, because there's only 1 thing that matters and all it takes is one wipe, which can defo happen in 30 minutes among 5 people. also I dont know who's brilliant idea it was to cap gear at 10 key, again, outside RIO, no point finishing key because the gear you get is literally the same as in key 10, if from 12 and above you actually gotten better gear, that'd be different story, people would have reason to finish them or if doing 12+ actually unlocks extra vault slot that'd be something, just something that makes you stay, thats it, no balance changes, no making things easier, just scale rewards with keystone level. Thats what I think after a month of playing the game
I know this is going to sound odd but why not make a follower dungeon mythic plus learning system that has "checkpoints". In this pack you are going to learn how to interrupt these certain casts. If you fail that checkpoint, it starts you back at the checkpoint. In this next pack, you are going to learn how to use your defensive...and so forth. It would be similar to proving grounds but it's the actual dungeons themselves.
this is genius... but it's anti profit and capitalism.. you might be a communist. for blizzard to make money, they must gate all content, including the ability to practice.. why do you the adventure guides are so 90s myspace website, and there's litterally no rules when you join a PVP event for the first time.. a few objectives, but no "rules".... this game is trash, and if the world wasn't so bad I wouldn't play it.
I'm 100% in favor of some sort of decent learning system. We nearly had it with the proving grounds, expand that.
Leave follower dungeons as they are though, since they're meant to be a lower level way to run/see the dungeon.
Nice video and I completely agree. I have been progressed to 2.1k first as a monk and I found it is quite hard in M+ from level 8. No one wanted to play with monk because the lack of utilities. Then I reroll to rshaman. Tho I could find more group in M+, but the level of difficulty is going crazy. I have to be fast react and use every skill correctly otherwise it will be punishing. I am just a casual player and would like have fun and relax in the game. Initially I thought M+ is just the way to help players to get gear up for raids, But now I feel it is even hard to get gears in M+.
I'm with you, from the networking to do m+ feels like Linkedin right now, to the interrupts on healers (they MUST be removed ASAP).
And they need to do content PUG friendly, because PUGS are the heart of any MMO-RPG. They can do their e-sports still with the right balance, but reducing the m+ key scaling, bringing bad affixes and deadly curses and poisons to the dungeons was a mistake.
And a million things which has to be interrupted. I don't see a reason why a mob should have 2 different spellclasses so he can continue casting after a kick.
It's definitely way worse than DF Season 2, 3 and 4.
It has come down to the point that i am afraid to invite any meta class in keys. The whole thought process of a lot of players trying to do high(ish) keys,12s and up, is not "learn mechanics,improve on how your class plays in keys",but rather "reroll to whatever is meta, get fast invites, brick as many keys as possible till you eventually get carried to success". Fake it till you make and quantity is its own quality and things like that. Are those problems community driven? Yes. But as long as the sole metric of how good a player is at its class,especially in the first season of an expansion,is rio,we will have such issues. At the very least i believe that rio should have some class/spec aspect baked in. A 3.6k warrior in s4 of df had a loooooooooooot more weight than a 3.6k aug.
Jack your suggestion about lengthening out enemy mob casts before a certain key level is absolutely brilliant. This would absolutely help people learn the importance of these kinds of mechanics
It would make it more forgiving but I'm not sure it would make people learn the importance of kicks. Long kick times help people that try but miss kicks, not people where it's not even on the radar and making it so the mobs die before they get casts out isn't going to do much but gloss over that.
It will also teach wrong pacing, especially in places where you need to delay the kick
@@Nagassh Ye if anything this will enable the one guy in the group that knows what to interrupt get more of the necessary interrupts and thus the rest of the group faces no hardship and learns to ignore the casts (even more). I don't know, I think maybe an audio cue for important casts and/or a warning message (akin to what addons do) might go a longer way.
@ I think if they making the cast quite punishing, while also progressing the cast time reduction across key levels it could work. 6 seconds might be at early levels and then 3, then normal idk. I thought the overall idea is worth exploring.
@@hulkinnly1734 this only works if the actual cast going off chunks someone for 80 to 100% of their health like it does in high keys. If you give someone in a +4 a 5 sec cast timer to interrupt a web bolt that does 5% of their hp, they aren't really gonna learn to kick, if anything it is gonna teach them to ignore it even more.
If they keep designing M+ like mythic raid then I'm just not going to do M+. Most people do not enjoy mythic raid, and they don't enjoy it for good reasons. This entire patch in general has just felt like they want you to either go full casual or compete with the top 0.1% of players. They're actually just designing for 2 extremes and telling everyone else to go screw themselves.
This bad design has even bled into the anniversary event, completely scuffing it as well. The raid completely missed the mark on the target audience. The people who enjoy timewalking are in no way shape or form going to clear that raid on HC, even after the nerfs. And even if they could, why would they? Blizzard made heroic-track gear hot garbage this tier so even if they do full clear it every week, it's gear that's worse than what drops from the first few mythic bosses.
Brd has 0 mastery gear which is one of if not the best stat for my main makes this raid simply not interesting. And wiping through a hc raid just for "fun" is not very interesting I would confess.
Been preaching this for a while - we need a dedicated PRACTICE mode, where we can run a key at a certain level without risk of depletion (but timing grants no score). The core issue with M+ in it's current state is that repeatability is a huge problem -- you have to do the mechanics and meet the dps / heal checks THE FIRST TIME YOU SEE THEM which it totally impractical. In mythic raids, you get unlimited pulls and it takes 300+ pulls for everyone to learn. Why are we expected to learn first try in keystones? Really silly to me.
Also I love the cast time affix suggestion, very creative!
I share your thoughts on why raids lets you learn the ropes, but not mythic +. Mythic + as it is now feels like a 30 min boss fight. It can be really stressfull in that sense compered to raidbosses
@sts3118 yes, high keys are actually much HARDER than mythic raiding, what makes mythic raiding hard is that you need to carry 20 people instead of 5 :)
I was tanking a 12 NW, and I knew that once we got into the necropolis we would brick it. Interrupts a very important but stops are now very important to not only save people from dangerous mechanics but to give more time to be able to get your kick off cd. Long story short I got blamed for not “kicking” more when the casts that were killing our healer were non interruptible. They had to be hard stopped.
I think they need to take story mode and use that AI raid to kill Queen and implement it across all content as a teaching tool with pauses to teach you , kick here, hit this CD, etc. Oh you don’t know how to do this encounter, raid, dungeon, etc. don’t worry you can progress with full tutorials and turn them off when you feel comfortable. That would help ppl learn when the base UI doesn’t teach you anything.
Yeah, this current season just feels like they wanted to smooth damage but nerfed defensives and the damage is still spiky(healer main) and with no real strong way to push health up without cds(disc priest specifically)
Disc is so punishing for missing the slightest thing. I’ve been a resto main for years and I’m eating good this expansion but I’ve branched into disc and god bless you priest mains who can do it lol
oh man with disc it is really stressfull experience, yesterday I did 10+, but I was not fully in the mood, so as soon as you are not focused 100%, every little mistake is a wipe. So hard to get low hp group back to its feet especially during avoiding stuff around people getting far away from you.
Its not just disc, with nearly every healer you need to be like prepared 8 second before the boss even take a breath as anything is obliterating your group. Like mw need to put multiple massive modifiers to keep up, resto druids need to put shit tons of hots, paladins need to pool all the holy power they can and pre-cast precisely virtue or otherwise you are just getting overwhelmed and one bad global and whole party is gone. Damage is more spikey than ever.
What? They didn't nerf anything remotely like that, defensives are still as strong as they were in Dragonflight and healing is still as low as it was in Dragonflight
@@bambuco2 The low healing is the biggest problem. Beginning at ~8 boss stuff kills you if you arent max HP AND either use a defensive or get substantial amount of healing. Now thats okay for abilities you can avoid, but its just too much shit like in Dawnbreaker, Grim Batol or dreaded CoT, where stuff ticks for 6mio Damage over 5 seconds, which is bascially 3 globals... That arent even HPS checks anymore, cause constantly casting until OOM at pre-nerfed Surgeon, i was able to put out like 1,5m HPS, and with that you cant outheal those Boss mechanics. Which kinda feels dumb. Now my ilvl and prob. Skill is high enough to reliably complete/time +10 for Weekly, but it kinda feels wrong, that when you look at the Death counter and the damage taken and realize, that in 80% of the death you could not do anything, cause you only have so much buttons and a single cast roughly every 1,5s...
My biggest eat issue is that Mythic gear now comes from +10 (aka old +20) and crest farming is +8 (aka old +18). That is way too high. Even KSM which was time all 15s which should be time all +5s is now +7 and 8s. Gear overcomes some of the mistakes but also lets you learn the higher affixes. They have moved the goal posts and left players behind so naturally the higher key groups are more selective. I spent over an hour trying to queue for a +8 as 620 ret and just gave up.
I think they need to ask themselves one question every time they come up with an affix. "Could this be forced onto the healer" if the answer is yes, scrap it.
I don't think they have time for that; their hands are already full with creating out-of-touch punchlines and looking for the latest girlboss.
Exactly. Punish the DPS haste or crit rating or something. Impact their meters and they'll pay more attention.
they should create affixes only the person can solve not the group aka healer. easy solution. or you have to stun your add
@@glenneric1 yeah it's time for you to do something other than tunnel for the last 20 years
I have always enjoyed pugging. But this expansion I have hated it. First expansion I have said I am not pugging anymore.
Yeah, I’m stuck trying to get out of the 2.1K IO realm. The killer for me is the amount of no cc. Stuns, kicks, not using defensives really makes a difference. As a healer, I shouldn’t be top 1 or 2 on cc and kicks. Just really feels bad to do an entire key and miss it by seconds or even a minute because people don’t understand how to use their kits yet.
You have CC and Kicks?!? (HPriest here)
run your own key, recruit highest io.
Depends which class you're playing buddy, healers can absolutely be at the very top of CC
To oppose your view a little, i will say this: the most effective way to keep your team alive is to control mobs through kicks or CC. Top healers constantly use their kicks and cc as it is a way to completely negate incoming damage. Controlling mobs is not in any way limited to certain roles, it is a group job always. If you play a resto shaman f.ex. you should be top 1 or 2 on kicks/cc as your kit is great for that.
@@grundesakariassen1885 Sounds great. Please let Blizzard know to give Priests Interrupts and CC. Thanks....
To me the biggest issue is that clearly a large % of the playerbase has 0 interest in 'high keys', and rightly so in my opinion. The drop off in participation between +10 and +11 is evident, and the drop off from +11 to +12 is even steeper. In an MMO of course players are going to care about rewards/gearing, if players are concerned about m+ participation thats where the outcry should be. If there was ANY incentive to do a +11 then 10x the players would try to complete them, and then maybe from there a larger form of feedback would occur and 'fix' the issues you mentioned. In my opinion though there's 0 reason for players to overcome those issues if they have 0 tangible (gear, not IO) reason to actually partake in the content. Just my opinion, but I know that my interest in m+ drops off a cliff once I achieve portals, I'd imagine most other portal enjoyers are the same.
This is it exactly. Now that I have earned Keystone Hero, I may be done with WoW.
That’s what I do, get my portals and do my 8 keys a week to get my 3 myth track options. Don’t touch M+ after that because no reward and it’s beyond punishing if you’re pugging and don’t have a dedicated group. I refuse to pug anymore and will only run keys with a full guild/friend group.
It also doesn't help that the community is so needlessly exclusive even as low as 8s and 9s. I'm a fury/arms warrior, sitting at 622 ilvl sitting at just over 2400. The only thing that gives me anything now is 9s and 10s, but it might take me an hour or 2 just to get into 1 group. I've heard the same issue from my guildies. To make matters worse, people don't seem to want to create consistnat groups anymore. you complete a key, see GG, then everyone dips.
When you go through that on a daily basis, it's not a surprise that a large part of the community is like "got my KSH, I'm not dealing with this anymore"
THIS!!! I can't stress how hard/time-consuming it is to get the weekly stuff done now. I used to do 8 8s for myth vault with 3 characters. Now I just don't even bother and try to get it with just one. Crest increase (more grind no one asked for) for alts also are a nightmare and yeah sure, everyone will get 639 for the Gilded discount... + the death punishment. It's fucking crazy they think this is the right direction for things to be.
I'm one of those guys.
I don't enjoy the dungeon rotation and I find them most of the time frustrating and overly punishing, putting artificially a shit ton of pressure on the healers where as a dps even if you use all your cds and potions, he'll still struggle.
Since there is absolutely 0 incentive ingame to do keys above 10, I simply do not bother, even at 631 ilvl.
It’s just so much wasted time in the m+ system pushing up keys after bricking them. Can’t be bothered. I just spend the first week or two being the fastest to getting all 10’s timed to make sure I can get vault gravy train rolling and enough io to get weekly keys done then I’m done pushing. My pushing friends just invite me to their 11s and 12s after the bricks and I get free io without trying because even they can’t be bothered push up their own keys. It’s miserable experience for not enough rewards. I learned and am having much better time.
A major positive change would also be removing the loss of key level. It does no good on the idea of practicing a 12 when you run it, fail, and go back to an 11 that isn't as punishing. Since losing a key level is happens weather you are 1 second over or 1 hour, people get more far more exclusive about their key. What is the downside of a person sitting at 12, unable to really get to 13, but able to try it multiple times, filling their vault to get a better chance at gear and practice?
I did my first 10 a few days ago and I found it really tough. It also feels weird being stuck at these "low" keys. I am not a great player but it felt better in the past to work up towards 15s and 20s then trying to get to 11s or 12s, which I think will be my limit this season.
The major issue is disbands. If things go well but the mess up is at the end then people just leave because they're not getting the points. It's seriously a huge waste of time. Sometimes 3 or 4 maybe even 5 disband in a row. Some people want the gear. Others just want score. Something needs to change. Add better gear and more crests to delves.
Just add a soloque system like league. Solo/Duo queue is one type of score, 5-man premade is another. Worked very well for PvP, I believe this could work for PvE.
I think a lot of players just plateaued and thats just part of the game. Eventually you just can't go any higher because of your skills. People are stuck in 10s and 11s are people who arn't kicking and using DR much. Its very noticeble as a healer, you will sometimes feel healing a 10 key is harder than 12 because people arn't kicking and using DR properly.
My biggest issue with M+ this season (and In a way raiding) is that if you don’t already have a group of people/friends to run, PUGS are an absolute hell of toxicity. (Especially when playing a healer) Getting in voice chat, for me personally is hard because people can be assh*les depending on how you sound
100%. Ping system was a good start to improve non-vocal communication but something more is needed
Its not only this season its like this for a really long time
This has been my experience in M+ also. Basically just trying to get my KSM maybe push KSH idk yet but just the constant toxicity of players and the people who leave after 1 wipe its been very grueling and so much of a pain that sometimes i find myself thinking if its even worth playing anymore. 17 years and this is the first time I've thought of just walking away from the game xD
@@Robin...222seems to me that's because we've all been people for a really long time
My challenge was learning the game so that I wasn't the weakest link in my groups and then that turned into being frustrated with other people for the same mistakes that I was making. lol
3:55 This is SOOO true, as a healer making my own groups for even just 9s for crests feels crazy when I'll look at how all of my dps have cleared the dungeon +9 but then pulls all go horribly because there is no CC happening, no interrupts happening, and then these guys have the gall to blame the healer because they are dying. Like no, the mobs chain casting can not be stopped by myself while I'm also healing lol
Other than spikey AF dmg, I feel everything would be nice if there was a better reward system for lower/mid keys - mid/high keys.
Reward system needs a revamp for both casual and elite players
One thing that would make pugging easier without affecting very high key pushing people is refunding kick to a 2-3 second cd in case you fail, it doesnt really need to be 2 seconds but the idea of cd refund in case of a miss would help pugging.
No matter the io playing with 3k io people and yet some still have no idea when to press defensives…
for us (me and 3 premades) the hardest part really is finding the last healer, you'd think that having 4/5 members for a dungeon speeds up the time it takes to find a group but no, 15-45 minutes to find a healer, there's this stupidly low amount of people that are willing to play healers and your video just confirms that people just do not want to get into it, it's already so hard to get good at the game without putting tons of hours into research, being a tank and a healer is then just another spike of difficulty imo
And here I am, a forever healer up until this season, rerolled tank due to never finding a tank for my pugs.
Tbf, I watched enough random groups who had several healers queue whom they declined for not having enough score or gear in their eyes. A lot of times, healers and tanks do exist but people are picky and want to get carried by higher score rather than giving a slightly lowerscore a chance. Sometimes the community digs their own grave
I'm a healer main with 3k io atm and I still get declined from 12s when I try to queue with a friend..
@@Ratatoeskrrr Bro I had an Hpaly thanking me for taking him for a 10 before the resett and he did a good job. He was like "I am sure there were better healers." Did not time it but it wasn't even the goal.
@@brave1988brave Well that's great but most groups iam in don't do that. It seems to be an unwritten rule that the leader is always the lowest score and he will never ever invite people on his score or lower. That's 90% of the time reality
The most fun I’ve had in a m+ this season is standing still, blasting first boss of mists. Would it be horrible to have more “how hard can your character go” scenarios instead of “how well can you survive” scenarios being the norm?
I mean where is the challenge in that? Almost every class is easily picked up in terms of rotation, if you want just a target dummy, there are some in dornogal. But at the sametime, that burn a boss thing does exist, some are heavier mechanics and some are not.
I think variety is what makes things more engaging, which is why we don't just have that. And if it's just do more dps, then you run into the problem where if you're gear isn't good enough, it just becomes impossible.
There's literary no challenge in just learning the rotation, learning how your utility works and where to use it in order to make the whole dungeon easier and actually time is where "skill" comes from in this game
WoW community in a nutshell:
Learn the mechanics? Naaah
Crying for blizz to nerf dungeons till you can faceroll them? Yeeeaih....
Imagine if at the end of a dungeon the game shows report for used defensives, taken avoidable damage, interrupted casts.
I’m surprised that warcraftlogs hasn’t done something like it but how do you make it not toxic.
Or more importantly how do you make ppl kick the important volleys and not just run up the kick meter getting all the bolt casts
Toxicity: 1. If the game is providing the info it will be less toxic than when a party member blames you. Like score screen after battleground.
Important casts: Blizz can introduce 1 or 2 new cast bar colors and use them to telegraph importants
@@AutomaticJak
@@AutomaticJak you can't. Similar to how you can't stop bad dps from blowing cds in bad spots just to damage pad and be on top of the meters. For the same reason having a successful kick give a dps increase (a great incentive to kick) does not work, as every bad dps would immediately unload their kick on the first cast (regardless of it's importance) to score that sweet sweet dps increase.
good players always try to learn and improve. bad players will always try to complain and blame anything other than themselves. It's the nature of the game unfortunately. Doesn't matter how much info you give them.
The current affixes are a good example of that. they've made em kiss/curse with fairly large benefits and still bad players fail to do them or flat out ignore them cause "it's someone else's problem"
@@AutomaticJak Could have a mob visibly glow/flash a say Pink colour when it's casting an ability that NEEDS to be kicked or someone will likely die. There's ways to communicate that information in the base game that Blizzard just don't utilise or think to use.
You would get wrong data. For example: i play a Demo Warlock so i have only a 45 sec stun/interupt and one masss stun. I play in a Gild Group and we use Discord, so we can say what mobs we will interupt. I tend ti interupt a cast fairly late (i put on curse of tongue so i have more time) so the mob would waste time and cast less often. But more often than not the mob gets then interupted by mass stops or teammates that are panicking that the cast will get through. So more often than not i would interupt less than other NOT because i am lazy or dont know what to kick but because the cast i am assigned to gets kicked by someone else bevor i can do it.
Example 2: It matter what cast you kick. You can get a very high kick rate by kicking "normal" spells and ignoring the high dmg spells, heals whatever. Then your group wipes or people die because you didnt kick the group wipe cast but at the end of the dungeons you have the most kicks. Kicking means nothing if you dont kick the right casts.
Example 3. There are Classes that have no kicks or kicks on a high cd. i naturally kick fewer casts with my 45 sec cd than a melee with a 15 sec CD. At end of the Dungeon people will yell at you because you kicked 3 times less than class xy, ignoring the fact that your kick has a high cd.
The thing I've always said is they under utilize cc in pve or other ways to prevent people from topping the meters if they're failing mechanics in less punishing ways. I used to use LFR as the example back in the day, I'd say instead of having it where the mechanic does no damage and you ignore it in LFR instead make it so that mechanic stuns the person or fears them or something very noticeable that viscerally prevents them from just shoving dps.
If a person keeps standing in the swirly and it keeps stunning them, eventually they'll stop standing in the swirly. Its not the same level of punishment as every swirly 1 shotting you like we currently see in higher level content... it just stops them from pumping which is what they care about. They can recover from this, but its personally something they want to avoid and so its much easier to learn from.
Take that idea and apply it more across mechanics. Instead of making it so the bolts 1shot people if you fail to kick it, make it so the bolts put a stacking debuff that lowers your throughput and when it reaches a certain number of stacks you get stunned or silenced or feared etc etc. You still desperately want to stop every single cast in these scenarios, but its not an immediate unrecoverable fail if one goes off... and you have the possibility of trying to recover the mistake.
The problem is every knob is damage, and that tends to be binary in that you can either ignore it or it 1shots you which isn't conducive to learning... as opposed to attrition style mechanics that you could potentially recover from but are noticeable and scale down as well.
I love your idea.
13:34 exactly jack! I am actually sitting out TWW because Blizz went off the deep end on the complexity and difficulty in small-group content (M+). nice video, agree with many of your pain points you called out, they seem to echo that of my guildmates who still play TWW right now. hope there are changes! I'm a former 3k m+ player myself here
Great suggestions! As a pugger who has previously obtained 2700+ IO on multiple healers and a tank, this season has been a huge struggle for me, and honestly has almost forced me away for good! I’m stuck in the 8-10 range currently, some of that is just being extremely unlucky with gear drops and not increasing in iLVL in over three weeks and some is the pug groups not understanding the content.
My biggest issue this season is that everyone seems to make it known that they know your class better than you do. I’m all for suggestions, learning and always getting better but it’s tough to listen to players when it’s 2nd, 3rd or even 4th DPS in the group with 3 total interrupts is telling me how I should be dispelling Devour as an example. If everyone had an opportunity to truly learn their class beyond mashing 4 buttons the groups and experience in general would be better for everyone.
The other issue you mentioned - damage is quick and even an experienced healer is having a hard time reacting quick enough. The times I feel like I can react quick enough is the time a purple swirly pops up under my feet forcing me to move and not cast a heal.
Healers can no longer just power through like in the past, takes a competent group to move forward.
As a tank and healer main healing output don't matter. It's the cool downs to save a situation that matters this is why most healers really suck in m+ and just a few can manage 10+-12+ keys had a holy priest with over 1.6m healing done and we still wiped same group same key with a shaman instead 600k hps and 1 wipe the whole dungeon. M+ needs to have its own bracket for tuning so specs gets closer to each other in output.
My thing about the kicks and CC's in keys this expac and honestly to a degree in DF. Is that I feel exhausted at the end of keys, due to worrying about the constant CC's and kicks. If I am pugging which I often do these days because while I do have a dedicated group. Doing keys with the boys is less stressful and we will call out our kick targets per the auto marker. In pugs it's completely the wild west and your just hoping someone else isn't picking your target and sniping your kick. So not only did you both kick the same target. But the other guy was faster AND your kick was wasted. So you can't switch to another target and kick that instead. So here is what I would like to see happen.
1. Kick's don't go off if you and another person both kick the same target. Meaning no more sniping who ever is faster their kick goes off. The other person's remains ready.
2. Undo the change to interrupts to CC they made this expac. If a mobs been kicked then they do not instantly go back into casting again.
The exclusive thing is really screwing me over at the 14-15 range. Every tank/healer I've added has invited me, then they're full for a couple nights, then I have to find a new tank to play with. At some point I was 200 IO above title range by having 12s and 13s done before they nerfed the affix, now I have 3 14s and 13s done and I struggle to get into listed groups because I can't get into keys to increase my IO, so my IO is only 3100 and they'll invite the same class that is 3170 IO instead. It's this weird perpetual loop. People I played with at the start of the season who were 100 IO below me are now 100 IO above me, keys are harder because the groups I am invited to now are people who can't meet the DPS/HPS checks of 14s, so I fail more and more keys. I went from being R10 of my class, to R60 solely because I am not getting invited to groups that have also figured out the dungeon. So I sit in queue for 3 hours, don't get invited, my IO falls behind, etc.
And that's not necessarily a bad thing that exclusivity exists, but going from all of my runs being top 100 US runs (I had a R10 stonevault at some point) to barely getting into keys is so mentally deflating that it's killing my drive to push keys and it's making me play worse too since I mental boom myself. I'm in 4-5 high key discords, but the last time I tried to post a high key for people to do I get removed from that discord as it probably broke a rule about wanting a carry, even though all I did was link the key and ask if anyone wanted to run it.
Also, I always push my keys early, I've always been able to get high rank keys (I did a 22 Neltharus in S2 before they buffed chains, I did a 27 lower kara before they nerfed it in SL). But every season it ends up being like this as I don't know people to play with, so every single season I am able to start really well and play with people that are so much better at the game, and yea it's probably a bit of a carry, but I don't think I am absolute garbage at the game either if I am able to do these keys 2-3 weeks into a season.
I don't know what your issue is, but sitting at (ONLY!) 3100 IO (seems like your flexin' ) and havin' such a wow-crisis is above any good means.
Idk your comment seems like it is only written to tell us, that your rio is this high and ur ranks are at this and that place.
You write only what you did "I always push key early", "I've been ablte to get high rank keys", "i did this", "I did that", this games is not only about you.
People in this game play non-meta classes and don't complain about this at 10/11 even if their class needs some big tuning, and if meta-classes searching for a challenge but play their high keys to make the challenge again "easy" with their meta-class instead of harder, seems paradoxical to me; isn't the idea to push high keys there for the "challenge"?
It seems rather people do it for the esteem and to show off., if it woul be for the challenge they would push high keys with non-meta classes, without any consumables and to make it harder maybe take some gear-piece off. ;)
META in itself reveals the true nature of meta-slaves, why they play it and for which cause.
People forget that this is a game.
So what do you want? If you want a fixed group make one or search one.
Your puttin sensless pressure on yourself for no good reason at all.
I think the point is that even being inside these niche communities isn't often enough. You need to be one of the main 5 in a competitive and equally skilled team
@@bruh8539 brother what are you yapping about
incoming damage needs to be dropped by 40% and our healing needs to go down by 50-60%. Allow hots to actually mean something, allow mana pools/management to mean something, allow 'mistakes'/not being able to interrupt something other than instant death/wipe and will NOT allow 1 or 2 button full hp heals. If someone is low on health, it will mean they've been hit multiple times from things and will take multiple heals to get back up and to not to have a heart attack if someone is under 80% hp and is now in 1 shot range from anything. This will naturally allow for more FUN, yes fun, in keys and less STRESS. crazy right. Those that want to pull big and know their specs can. Those that want to play safe and know less about the game can do so without stress of getting verbally ripped apart by party members. Their idea of healers doing dps can then actually happen. This will allow for a more gradual increase in difficulty (and progressively teach players the needed mechanics/abilities) while still keeping the same important mechanics that make M+ what it is. There just isn't a big difference between a +2 and a +6 but for higher keys going up 1 or 2 levels is a massive leap. This won't remove the 'elitism' of the upper echelon and gear ilvl. If someone can't do the high end content they shouldn't get the gear but don't make walls that stop people from getting into M+ all together. Also, some specs/classes need some additions/reductions in utility/movement/damage reduction
I think the worst part about this season is trying to get a community of consistent people. I lost my old team at the end of DF and trying to find people who're actually interested is just awful. Most people I knew who did M+ regularly have quit because of all the issues since release. It almost makes it impossible to find groups without pugging every dungeon.
me being one of the quitter who was a M+ hardcorer. I almost only do storyline and then M+ M+ M+. Not even do reputation/renounce stuff. But I gave up this season. So disappointing. I M+ since BFA and never stop. This is the first time.
@@iknow3335 Im almost to the same point, I mean delves give more satisfaction at this point…if something doesn’t change for S2 I will probably give up on it all together
628ilvl warrior 2450 rating. Having a really really hard time getting into 10s, basically don't get invited. I've timed 2 10s and can clearly do them and my ilvl is fairly high but in peak hours like 4pm-10pm on my server I don't get a chance to run them it's the same blockade I faced going from +7 to +8. It's really annoying and depressing to be honest. I enjoy the challenge of higher and higher keys but I don't even get a chance to play the game.
make your oven key... im 624 dps war and im around 2700, but its true that some classes have easier life :D my alt enha shamy after 2 weeks have bigger io than main war :D
Honestly, if the goal of M+ is maximum efficiency and its corresponding rush of the timer. The best thing they can do is:
- Make magical damage not be so fatal, like missing an interrupt can easily nuke a player
- Remove a lot of mechanics from trash mobs, it is trash, it shouldn't have mechanics more dangerous than some bosses
- Make bosses be the focal point which tests if you understand how to do the dungeon/class abilities.
I think this will help tremendously with making trash packs less punishing, it would allow people to learn actually important mechanics, and it will put the focus on the bosses being the real checks. So many of the M+ encounters have trash packs that are hundreds of times more dangerous than the bosses. Consider Mists, easily the easiest of the M+ dungeons this season; the gauntlet mobs hit like dumptrucks and are far more dangerous than all 3 bosses combined. In fact, I would wager that it would be possible to tank all 3 bosses at once (minus the annoying tag game) than some of those packs
Ultimately, it comes down to the community at large.
It can be toxic to the point it’s not even worth trying out. This is a community that can make it great as long as they can keep their egos in check.
They’re not using the abilities because they don’t have the add-ons not everybody wants to use add-ons, but they want to join mythic’s and it sucks because it puts a lot of stress on everybody else who does
It's compounded by the fact that their isn't enough progression. The key level squish was a mistake. So many players trying to do a 12 that never should have made it "this far"
A good example of the sloppiness of the blizzard is that there is no single place to explain what affixes do.. how should I learn this if the game does not bring this information in a clear and objective way? Because they hide information from players, expect everyone to have the dedication to look elsewhere? It’s pathetic to realize that the company presents you with content that requires refinement, but don’t try the tools so I can learn and refine my skills..
actually love the non direct kick idea. most of kicking difficulty is not actually kicking it, just that everyone ends up overlapping, and even having a focus kick you might need to swap and kick other mob cause someone kicked your focus, and sometimes it can be hard to find the nameplate of the new mob you want to kick. this is exacerbated by a lot in pugs. having a different way to interrupt that is not direct would go a long way in solving that issue
After letting it sink in. I really really like your idea of making affixes the promote learning. For example have certain spells be priority interrupt. If you interrupt those spells you get a buff. Or if you stun certain channeled casts you get a buff. Or if you use a defensive skill and you prevent at least x amount of damage you get a buff. Or maybe everybody gets a debuff based on the damage they took. The member member with lowest debuff also gets a buff. Or if we get only a cd on our interrupt if it interrupts a spell, you could get a stacking buff for each second your interrupt is on cd. I think there are so many ways to teach players to promote the correct usage of the toolkit.
We are an ATOC casual guild that does a lot of M+ content on off raid nights. This M+ season has been brutal. Initially no one wanted to do M+ cause everyone was doing delves since the gear was better and the content was easier. If we do get people wanting to play, our comp is usually very random, and for the first time it feels hard to complete stuff. I know there are meta comps or whatever, but I don't feel like that should be necessary for casual play in sub 10 keys. The change to hard kicks vs stuns has been really difficult as well. Before if you had one or two players using their abilities well, you could usually get stuff done, even if like one player wasn't using interrupts correctly or something. All in all it's just making casual M+, even in lower keys, really difficult to manage and we aren't even pugging. It reminds me of raids in Shadowlands, it's just too punishing for more casual players.
My least favourite thing with Mythic+ as a returning player is how necessary it is. My guild runs Heroics, and when those are done my opportunities to progress my character basically end there for the week. I like doing dungeons, loved them in earlier expansions - don't object to hard dungeons. Just not a fan of the speedrun style of M+ But other than farming delves for 2 Runed per delve there's really no way to get past gear around 606. There's so many currencies like Kej, and Undercoins, and Resonant Crystals, and Renown gear, and crafted gear and it's all just a glut at the 580-600 level. I find myself looking at renown vendors and trying to figure out who this gear is for because it's out of date by the time you can get it. And instead, I'm just waiting for next weeks raids because the only other option is speed running Mythic+
The amount of m+ you have to do to actually get any gear drops is wild. Getting crests to upgrade is good and all. But when you can go multiple days with no drops… feels bad
the crest system is so atomic bomb level bad in this season, i dont understand anyone saying anyone positive about it. you start at 1/6 and you get only 90 per week, this is the worst state a system in wow has ever been.
As a 2400 Holy Paladin feels bad getting declined to tens because I am not a resto shaman.
Im a pres evoker. Don’t worry, at 2700 it gets worse 😊
To be fair 2400 is probably on the lower end of people applying to 10s
@richie1496 I rounded down. If you wanna know exactly my IO, it's 2475. I've timed three tens and just need one more for my 2500. But it's annoying getting declined cause I'm not a resto shammy
I had applied too ten earlier, and then moments later, the guy updated the title to the key, saying "LF resto shammy only," and then declined my app.
I’d welcome you with open arms. I hate the meta mentality. I always thought we were supposed to bring the player, not the class.
Tbh most people now will take u if u playing lightsmith since u can keep up
difficulty in going up the keys is insane. The feeling that keys with casual players is just not going to happen. Needing perfect game play in kicks, stops and using your toon to the fullest is exhausting. End of the day the resulting factor this is a game is becoming less appealing to log in and deal my own level of toxicity over a game on invites and key groups vs playing another game for that enjoyment factor.
The problem is coming from the wall they set up in 12's.
You have a large number of players getting into 12's without ever learning a single mechanic and now all of a sudden everything kills you, the way you fix that is you make those things kill you at a lower key level that's it.
Honestly I've played healer my since I started playing wow on vanilla after I do 8 10 keys for the vault I've felt so drained Honestly doesn't make me want to play keys
Blizzard found the formula for an infinite toxicity engine and decided to build a central pillar of their game around it. I have no idea why.
I think one thing that really gets in the way is that there are a lot of carries, people with slightly higher ilvl carrying others, but when these people start doing higher keys they know absolutely nothing about the mechanics, defensives, interrupts, etc. Love your content, Jak. Greentings from Brazil.
As a mythic raider, I have really come to dislike M+. Big part of that is as a tank, people get upset if I do any route of my own. That coupled with keys being required HW for vault slots and upgrade currency, it’s really snowballing negatively in my mind. I know I can run it with guildies and that goes better, just a negative part of my gameplay I wish I didn’t have to interact with at all. #GiveDelvesCrestsAndMythicVaultGear
Kinda sucks that a lot of guilds don’t raid on the weekends
Awesome takes on M+.. i think the challenge's peril should grow in a curve, like from 8-11 it's 10sec penalty, and 12+ could be 15sec.. No idea why they didn't do this, instead of giving some "free deaths".
Also teaching people and preparing for a more difficult content is a perfect idea to make the game better, 100% agree.
I remember a long time ago, one of the time walks dungeon events, you needed to use 5 interrupts inside the dungeon to progress. They should do more things like that. Also, in delves, there should be some cast to one-shot players if not interrupted. People would learn a little bit better in this way.
I've played and pushed m+ ever since legion and this is the first time ever that I actively do not want to do keys and simply do them as a weekly chore, the damage is so so bursty and it feels like if my teammates don't pool defensives in a co-ordinated way with my healer cds especially for the big grpwide damage bosses then i as the healer just have to helplessly watch as my party die without me having the globals to begin to respond, its not that we've never had stuff like this before (HoV storm phase boss for eg) but the bursty aoe is just EVERYWHERE, I think you're right that health pools need to be higher bcos we simply need more time to actually cast/deal with things
Totally agree with 7:22 -- the largest difficulty is finding a good group. People who run M+ in an organized fashion talk about M+ like it's fun and actually involves gameplay. For the rest of us who PUG, M+ is a poisonous brew of ignorance and/or interpersonal conflict. I barely have the taste to seek out a group even once, every couple of weeks, because I'd rather fill my leisure time with non-toxic activity. As you say, Jak, for must of us this is just a game.
Speaking of what the game doesn't teach you: it doesn't even explain what to do with your keystone once it's in your bag. I needed a 3rd-party website to learn that you "use" it somehow, and then I needed a patient guildmember to point out that there's a pedestal to drop my keystone into.
Meanwhile I'm loving delves, because I get to test myself against the difficulty of the content... instead of against the difficulty of navigating verbal abuse.
Like what @fadingdimension said. "The main underlying issue is that most players are PUGing, but Blizzard is balancing around top end Pre-Made consistent roster groups" - This is so 100% true.
Im at all dungeons at +11. I only pug. I dont WANT to get into a grp with ppl on voice. I want to enjoy the key what ive ALWAYS been doing, pugging, on my own, without voice. This has been totally fine, in ALL the expansions before, in ALL the seasons before. But now? No, very, very hard at 12 and above.
It’s spending like 40mins and above that is the issue looking for a group. As someone that pushes for title every season this one has been the worst for it. They either need to implement a queue where you join random players with ur keystone level and then if it depletes you all deplete your key level. If a player leaves only that players key should deplete. Either that or with the current system you should be able to place a rune by crafting or doing certain activities where you install it into the keystone and when a key is used it will stop the key from down leveling if you fail. This way players will more likely invite you if your willing to use your rune.
The biggest problem is not the difficulty, it the level of gear available for said difficulty. The gear you may (or more likely won’t receive) is not the gear that the person who just overcame that difficulty would actually need.
Meanwhile, I'm over here impressed that with a key squish and an actual affix overhaul we have the same Timed keys/Completed keys success rate as S1 DF at 78%
I won't lie, as soon as I saw the changes to M+ during WW beta, I completely wrote off M+ since I usually pugged it, the changes just looked like they would make the pug experience so much more miserable then it already was. Looking at M+ now, I am so glad that I have not tried to do it at all this season, which I am also sad about.
I really like the idea of dangerous casts being slower in lower lvls. Though I wouldn't jump from slow to faster/normal at keylvl X, just speed it up a bit every next keylvl until you get t o the lvl you want it to be normal cast time at.
Alternatively, change the UI so that the dangerous ones stand out over the normal ones, something a lot of players use an addon like plater for atm. Or hell, do both.
I think one problem blizzard hasnt learned over the years , specially when they released df & new talent trees, is that they should make all class tuned around the same level from the ground(talents/baseline kit), so it remains for years , and instead adjust /buff/nerf : tier sets/heroic talents/dungeons & affixes each season, instead of having issues from talents/core class gameplay carrying from seasons to seasons (& xpacs too apparently).
Gearing this season is a nightmare. As someone who enjoys raid and M+, needing two completely different sets of gear to be effective in both settings is a time commitment I don't have. I wouldn’t call myself a causal player and I still can’t gear properly for both settings. It feels like Blizz is trying to force me to choose to either raid or M+.
Thank you so much for this video! Even if addons and third party resources, I'm struggling with the working memory and processing speed to even run keys lower than 10 and with dungeons changing so often, it feels even harder to figure out. Because of this, I end up changing what class I'm playing each season, which makes it all that much harder as well. Though discovering healing was amazing and let me start getting portals. Big issue with healers though, theres only one per group, and so trying to figure out how to be flexible and just basically get any keys done at all when pugging like you said isnt very fun. I've been having a bit of fun with aug this time around at least, though I dont have any portals yet, I do have almost all my gear at 619.
As a more casual player, my questions is always, why? Why spend so much time learning and perfecting mechanics at such a high level, just for a few more item levels on my gear? The payoff is not nearly rewarding enough.
I 100% agree with this but it’s happening at even lower key levels than you cited. In previous seasons I’ve been able to PUG portals but now I’m using guildies/friends for 7/8 level keys due to the crazy skill/communication gap.
For me I always loved the natural progression in difficulty that M+ provided. I think with the introduction of excess difficulty at 10's and 12's it's created too steep of a learning curve, I think that compounded with the gear rewards also being locked behind 10's has created a fairly unrewarding experience at vital points.
There should be signals that show a cast is dangerous without having to get a plater profile, and def the CC stopping casts thing needs to be back. In pugs people often overlap kick with a knock up now their kick is wasted and the mobs are casting over and over again.
One of the aspects of M+ I fell in love with was the sense of progressing by doing bigger and/or more crazy pulls or more technical routing but now it is mostly just press W and only pull 1 pack at a time. If you do anything else you are more then likely wasting your time because your not ever going to be rewarding for this in the middle to low keys and in all keys you are super punished for a mistake that is most likely going to snowball into a massive mistake.
Also I know it has always been this way but it has never felt this bad. I tank a 9 for my friends alts and we easily 2 chest it but I go into a 6 or 7 pug and we are likely failing or barely timing it even with sub 5 deaths. Massive delta right now.
Hearing Jak say Kraut-Control has been the highlight of my day.
I maybe have done a handful of M+ and used to have a deadicated night for it in previous expansions, mythic+ is way too intimidating this xpac I dont really want to bother with it. Just add mythic gear to delves. Flex group sizing and an easier ride.
Also, can we balance healers for once? Been almost 3 seasons in a row with 1 healer just dominating the meta. 4 if you want to also count S3 DF.
The main issue I have as a healer is that my IRL friends are no where near where my guild is talent wise. I used to be able to push 20s with my guild and on off nights still help my friends through 15 to 18 now they are having issues with 4s lmao this is crazy.
It's no fun in a PUG with willing kickers for multiple players to be punished for using their kick on the same mob spell, and have none or few left over to counter other spells. Then your left with people holding their kicks so as not to waste it and to late realizing that indeed they should have kicked. This often spells doom for pug groups. A buff on the mob preventing other kicks after the first for a few seconds would allow people to kick freely without fear of wasting and dooming the group to failure.
The casting point is a very good one! I agree that would be very helpful for new players! Good idea
Glad you think so!
I think the incoming damage improved from DF where everything legit felt like it was just about living all the oneshots, whereas now you more often die over 2-3 ticks aktuelle making self heal or a healpot valuable
2726 pres evoker. Very frustrating applying to 20 groups, getting in there finally after an hour or 2, and then we wipe in the first pull of city or SV to bolts and curses going off. I was able to pretty consistently get in before hitting the +12 wall. Now if you’re not a priest or a shaman and have a 12 done already, you aren’t allowed to play the game.
I'm convinced Challenger's Peril was made as a punishment for DPS because historically DPS are the ones that do not get punished for mistakes, but the affix has now just become a blanket punishment for the entire group.
One part of the problem is that dungeon progression has no option to cater to people not interested in speed over all. This funnels EVERYONE who likes dungeons into a system that really doesn't work for everyone. And then, when you shove all of these people who don't have the same goals into one system that isn't designed for a lot of those people... you create differing expectations and these differing expectations lead to problems.
Climbing keys was better than what ever this shit is lol.
You're thinking to high up the keys #, if you haven't timed a few 7's good luck getting in a group, if you then haven't timed some 8s good luck getting into a group, if you haven't timed some 10s good luck getting into a group... at every breakpoint of gear level increase and of every level of crest level increase is a gate that you have to get through to be able to start pushing higher yet again
Yes. This is not a problem of keas 11, 12 etc only
I really only play with guildies in keys. We have a robust community, so tons of folks to play with. But, like any other community there is a wide variety of skills. I agree with folks here in regard to the change in key difficulty levels between expansions. In dragon flight, seasons 3 and 4 were very open access to higher keys and now it is not. Folks are not adjusting well. Now, keys really aren’t the way to get better gear for your raid team (ie getting mythic track gear to out gear the aotc raid). Add to that I can’t get my heroic gear upgraded because I can’t get accepted into a 9 key, I am stuck doing 7s with no opportunities to get better gear. (Yes, the recent change for 8s should help a little). Add to that the horrible imbalance of specs, the difficulty levels of individual dungeons and affix’s, dungeons just aren’t any fun anymore for me. And they are why I play wow!
I really don't understand why people complain about "pugging a +(insert above 10 number here) is too difficult". Rewards cap at a +10, so anything beyond a 10 only has one incentive - prestigious achievement. It's supposed to be difficult. It's supposed to lean on player skill. It's supposed to start requiring coordination and communication. We don't expect people to faceroll a mythic raid without some form of coordination, why do we expect it from a +12 key pug?
i 100% agree that defensives and crowd control should be removed from all dps classes. This will allow dungeon damage to be tuned back to provide more consistent, less spiky damage.
So many players got boosted to the +12 key range by pugging with very skilled players early on, and now that other people have caught up those 2750ish io people who rushed up the ladder are stuck because their isn't those .1% players to carry them
Oh also, +12s are just better to fill the vault with half the time because the player pool is normally better (people LF nerd score generally try harder) and no affix is pretty nice 👍
The slower cast in lower keys would need be accompanied but more health on enemy mobs otherwise you don’t have time to see all of the mechanics.
Also this might create another chasm as with 12s this season where getting to the key level that loses this bonus feels exceptionally hard. So the point about linear progression kind of goes against this a bit.
Good good for thought though
This change does not address the core issue of the affix. This affix does NOT exist if your team plays well. It does exist and ruins keys if you misplay ONCE. No affix punishes mistakes except with death, but here its death + whats essentially 2 more deaths.
I think the concern over more and more people getting to 12s, hitting that wall, becoming frustrated, and unsubbing is only a concern if you think unsubbing for periods of time is a concern. I personally don't see the problem with hitting slow points in a patch and playing less or not at all.