Another Kiwi here who supports the ABs. Really sad to see this for SA rugby. If I remember back to my favourite moments in rugby I remember heroes and some of those heroes were bok players. Even the competition against the boks were moments I will never forget. I know the SA people are way to proud to let this get worse. Onward and upwards. All the best SA rugby!!!
@@warpig50 what do you expect he's a kiwi who supports a kiwi team...just like the argentinians who supports los pumas and the celts who supports the Scottish you get my drift.Go figure right
As an All Blacks supporter, its so sad to see the state of our greatest & most respected foe in this position. Changes need to happen. I only hope that pride can be restored back in the once proud & feared Springbok rugby. The ABs need Springboks to be strong.
it matters because this isn't a case of Italy on the up and up, culminating with a history breaking win. It's the boks on the down and down, which isn't a triumph for Italy. I guess best example is Ireland's history breaking win against the AB's -that's a triumph for Ireland.
JP Rough But even if they are down at the moment,they remaun the Springboks,a force of rugby.Italy is not yet,but still hasbeat them. So,in comparision,your draw at football Wc wasn't history,since Italy was bad?
Maybe we need this. For years we have been playing a style of rugby that is stagnant. Its time we transcend into the modern era and play a brand of rugby that not only excites fans but sends fear into the eyes of the opponent. For months the panel has made reference to the ways the lions have developed since their 'crisis' era and I agree that a similar route has to be taken. In my heart I am hurt by the defeats but I still believe in my team. We cannot throw all the lions players into a springbok side and expect them to shine. I say work with the current crop of players and help them develop and believe.
i remember when italian football team lost against south corea in world championship. that's the beauty of any sport, you can be the best team in the world, but if you don't put your heart in the field and the other do there's no ranking that can exist. go italy!!
It's sad to see Springboks hitting new low. Hope this is the rock bottom. But happy for Parisse. At least he got the biggest scalp before ending his career.
Congratulations to Italy for the win. Very sad to see the Boks in such a state. Chin up, at rock-bottom, there is no where to go but up. I look forward to a brighter future for SA rugby.
Sorry have to say something on this, Nick made a great point about losing players in their prime New Zealand is dealing with a mass Exodus of players in their prime... It's structure, not at team level it's the sports governing body that needs to change not the team whether it's their procedures or personal I don't know? But the team are feeling it more than anyone which can be the trigger to produce a better performance and start to get some confidence and belief... Their are certain factions in South Africa that I believe have an agenda that is only for personal gratification but I also believe that if South Africa looks at the big picture and looks long term not knee jerk reactions then you will see real rugby in it's truest form and I'm a Kiwi it sounds scary but awesome... Good Luck to the Springboks for the future...
Well, never knew Mike Catt had joined the Italy backroom staff. The more you know. Miss that guy in the England setup. He'll do great things for Italy - and seems he already is.
Chur It will happen to all nations it happened to Wales they are still not the great team they were but there a good team , it has happened to England they went awful and Australia are still not the mighty team they were once winning world cups but we need all these nations to be back to there best .
Hats off to Italy. From an ABs man sad to see the boks go down like this. No collaboration, and unhappy organization is what I see. Its 80 percent of the problem. No doubt the boks can bounce back they have so in the past.
Alot of people are commenting as the Quota system as the problem but the problem is much bigger than that as that is just one issue, there are so many problems with South African Rugby now that they need to get right that I honestly couldn't list them all. In the video they realise that and they just didn't know where to start from as you basically have to start from the ground up again. Sacking the coach, captain and removing quotas will not solve all the problems and will barely help at all, it could take years to get over this. I hope the Springboks do sort themselves out quickly though as for us All Black fans the AB vs Bok test match is the ultimate and it wasn't that long ago we had some epics games in 2013-15. I have huge respect for the Springboks but this year I don't know what to think.
As a Kiwi seeing our biggest Rugby rival hit a all time low is really sad.I really hope South Africa get back to the South Africa of old for the sake of Southern Hemisphere rugby.
I'm a All blacks supporter and I feel sorry for the Boks things definitely need to change.What I don't know but something needs to happen. I want a competitive Boks team. Southern hemisphere rugby needs a South African team that is competitive.
Three points that has caused this.1 Quota system 2 Players going over seas because we are poor 3 Coach is a quota. ( He has never won any tournament...)
No doubt the quota system has undermined the Boks but the gap between SA and the top nations is now so great that it cannot be explained by just the 3 points you have mentioned here Nick Mallet is right-SARU need to contract 150 plus players eligible to play for the Boks, irrespective of their race and make them available for selection. All the best players need to feel like they are wanted and there is a possibility they will be given an equal opportunity at selection based on performance alone. That said, it is also too easy for players to go abroad in their prime and after 3 years, or whatever it is, qualify to play for their adopted countries. It is shameful that so many SA born players end up turning out for Ireland, France etc
The ref was the big reason boys because Italy played dirtier than Argentina could ever. Saying that the ref didn't cause the Cheetahs captain not to pass with a triple overlap and break all the confidence and let players swear at eachother. Saying that the coach is really bad and whoever selects the team doesnt watch Super 18 rugby because they just keep players which should retire and the public is gatvol. We should force the coach and selectors to stop breaking the only pride we have left and let us pick the team and make the result to speak for itself. The Public Springbok team who actually watch rugby with more than 2 brain cells. ( That was the worst team we had ) 1.The Beast ( We need his strength and experience ) 2. Malcolm Marx ( Best thrower and powerful on his feet like the young Bismark ) 3. Marcel van der Merwe ( We need his weight and pressure on the other prop just like the kiwi replacement does ) 4. Eben Etsebeth ( Again you want power for a good clean ball and this is our tank ) 5. Pieter-Steph du Toit ( We need a good jumper and youth to grow together and hes got both ) 6. Jaco Kriel ( Hes the best all rounder and supports everyone does twice the work and great motivator ) 7. Roelof Smit ( Man this guy is all gas with no breaks and needs to recover real quick great talent ) 8. Warren Whiteley ( Need i say more great leader and gives his all ) 9. Ross Cronje ( You need someone who has a plan before he gets to the ball and doesnt try and do it all on his own ) 10. Elton Jantjies or Lambe ( You need to give Jantjies freedom to do his own thing or get lambe back on track ) 11. Sergeal Petersen ( You want the fastest and great lines this is it and work on his defense ) 12. Francios Venter ( Great player just needs to run better lines and think a bit more when under pressure ) 13. Mapoe or Jansen ( Mapoe can think on his feet but cracks under pressure and Jansen needs to run beter lines ) 14. The tall black guy ( Sorry guys cant remember his name but he started the 2 last tries against the barbarians ) 15. Ruan Combrink ( Yes i know hes a wing but hell be a great fullback and can keep up with any line break and speed ) Thats my team guys that will crush every single team and give England and Kiwis are run for their money. But thats not a full squad so add your backup players in the comments and lets get this ball rolling. Please leave a like if you agree with me and a thumbs down if you dont. Come on boytjies we can do this !
please please please SA rugby can you keep your quota system in place. I really enjoy watching my All Blacks humiliate you guys by 40+ test match after test match and as long as u retain the quota system this will continue.
The way forward, top down approach: the arrogant minister fikile mbalula must keep out of Rugby. The goal is to play competitive good rugby and to win, not first and foremost "transformation" (I say this with Oregan Hoskins in mind who stated that coaches who does not have "transformation" as their highest priority need not apply for the job) Administrators must do their jobs and create an environment that keeps our players here and once we are successful again ensure continuity in coaching staff and coaching skills. Forced "transformation" of players and coaching staff must stop immediately, coaches have enough to worry about as it is. Coaches of any colour that has been appointed on merit must do their job and select in form players of any colour. If you are white and used to be good you are out - you must be good now. If you are black and used to be good you are out - you must be good now. Coaches must also move with the times with regards to current competitive strategies. They should ensure the players are superfit, skillful and motivated. Without the above happening South African Rugby will continue to "transform" into the joke that it is becoming now. Fikile Mbalula must take responsibility. If you want to stick your big nose in, you must own up if you create a mess.
Well said Abel. If you think that equality of outcome is true equality, then you understand nothing on freedom of choice and appointment on merit. What if quota systems were put in place for the SA soccer team to appoint white players because of perceived discrimination, rather than excepting that more blacks are better soccer players, and are more likely to take up soccer as a sport than whites. As long as there is equal opportunity for everyone by law, then let the law take care of discrimination as needed. Quota systems do not work and are based on a mentality that the only reason there is a greater demographic of a certain group of people that dominate in a field, then it must be discrimination. As a kiwi, I am sad to see where the Springbok are heading. It was painfully obvious to predict that when the quota system was put in place, that SA rugby, and all the fans, were going to suffer from this. You guys did so well to move on from the apartheid, but now racism has reversed direction. I know that sounds harsh, but when people are appointed on colour, when others are better qualified, then surely that is the definition of racism? I believe it is VERY IMPORTANT that SA people use logic and reason to repel the Marxist ideology that is creeping in, before your freedom of speech is taken away, and it is too late.......
Insightful reply Simon. The sad fact is that freedom of speech is already affected. For example, everyone in the studio on the above clip knows the big problem is political interferance. Should one of them say something remotely critical about our enforced selection policies they will dissappear from that show as fast as mist before the sun. I don't want them to say anything because the only reason I watch the show is for Nick Mallett, Naas Botha and Breyton Paulse. If they were forced to leave I would stop watching. The tragedy is that we have fantastic black players who really does not need a quota system. It is unfair to them and to the coaches. We really admire your administrative system in NZ. They create an environment that develops and protects skill. I did not want to believe Graham Henry when he said the Springbok's competitive days are over, but I have since realized that he was spot on. I just keep hoping that strong leaders will appear that can bring change.
Thanks for the reply Abel. I figured that the presenters tongues were tied when it came to the political interference. I have observed that the rest of the world were very vocal with the apartheid, but because of the PC culture that is in the western world, all you hear is crickets when it comes to this issue. You have some fantastic black players in your country, and as a AB fan, know the potential that a mixed race team can bring to the table as rugby caters for all body types. This makes rugby a very unique game in my opinion in this sense. Bryan Habana is one of my favourite players, and in my opinion is the best winger of all time, when you take his career as a whole. I really like Mallet, Botha and Paulse. They offer great insight to the tactics of the game and are clearly very knowledgeable on the game. I watch the show regularly after a SB game to see a detailed analysis. Willemse is great as well. I don't know if you are aware of a guy called Jordon Peterson from Canada? He is a university professor of psychology. He is facing a issue with freedom of speech in Canada, and his job is on the line for speaking out against the PC culture that try to control what you can or cannot say. Jordon Peterson issue is with being forced to use gender pronouns of a person choice, which there are potentially a infinite number, and already about 76 already exist. I know this sounds like a completely different topic, but if you go to Peterson's UA-cam channel (type in his name and you will find it) you will find that it has a lot of similarities to the issue in SA, where Marxist ideology forces people do conform through authoritarian methods, rather than let a natural process take its course. I would recommend listening to his lectures a talks, Peterson is a very insightful person on this topic. I am a strong believer in talking the truth as you see it, and using discussion to fix problems, as violence never solves anything. When discussion is taken away, you are no longer able to counter with reason and logic as you have no voice. All the best Abel, and I hope reason will win the day. Hope you guys beat Wales next week, they will be tough for a SB team down in confidence. All the best mate.
from a Kiwi's point of view and I don't care if the Politically Correct Brigade get upset over this, but you have to get rid of the quota system. its ruined Springbok Rugby!!!
I'm an all black fan, but some of those springbok errors were amateur at best, I feel for those bok fans, fire all 15 players and start with youth, at least they will ignite some of the passion lost on this team
People are saying this is the biggest disappointment for SA rugby. Really? Not the game against Japan? In the WORLD CUP? This is just a test match with the only downside being a drop in the rankings. There's still the Wales game. Although, I can understand fears about that game. But even if SA are put into a shit pool come next May, there's a lot of time between now and 2019. Hell, there's a lot of time between now and next Rugby Championship.
mate that's the elephant in the room that the blokes in studio wouldnt talk about. Yes the structures in SA have had a bit of a shamble look, but what you've brought up is the reason SA is in this crisis.
SA is huge crises, on & off the field. Political decisions effecting selection, the Rand collapsing, ETC Its a pity the country is collapsing from with in .
I just don't get how the Boks can play this bad? The talent is there so there is no excuse, clearly something is wrong with the management and coaching. It's not like retaining your best players is a new problem, remember back to 09 when Frans Steyn and Heinrich Brussow two of the best young players in the world sold out to rich Euro rugby clubs. Something needs to be done and soon! It's sad seeing the Boks fall this low
It is not just Coetzee, who is clearly out of his depth (now we are watching his Stormers Deluxe with basically no meaningful offense which has been the case for years he was in charge), not all his staff (for example, Stick, ffs, what he can bring to the table, he himself needs help). The problem is broader - apart from the Lions, nobody played well this year, just nobody. Plus SA rugby is run by clowns and system is not Bok orientated. Unless that changes, the likes of Namibia, Uruguay etc. might be the next to have Bok scalp.
On ix - well I don't recommend recalling old players who were once decent in the blind hope that this will fix things. There is a reason he retired (note he was not dropped!). My suggestion is similar to what Mallet alluded to, institute a top down management of our players, ban the brain-dead kick and defend approach, and start to instill an attacking mindset in our players that includes running into spaces (not over defenders) and offloading (not the 1-dimensional crashball).
uChakide no tried and true? get them involved in this change process at least! Weve alwaya known of the SA playing stratergy. Were they always to proud to change the way they played? Why do they have to wait until the brown sticky stuff hits the rotational device in the ceiling before they decide to change their structure and stray?
On ix - I didn't say that my suggestions were the only ones. We have changed the way we played a few times. However, as Mallet said, this situation has been at least 7 years in the making. There is nothing wrong with a strong forward game, but this needs to be coupled with imagination and game awareness so that you aren't just going through the motions. Our phase play is so predictable that there were times when nearly the entire Italian frontline defence structure were in the right place waiting before the boks had even commited to the move.
SA are horrible winners...they do all that we will crush you crap. But now that teams have got bigger as we really start to settle into pro rugby, average teams have figured out that they just need to be brave and there's no fear of the traditional brutish and all too often violent style of 'Bok' rugby because the rules don't allow it and teams can stand up to them. Today, Italy did nothing out of the ordinary - just stood up physically to a nation that has produce generations of bullies, speckled with a few flair guys. Bravo!
What is alarming is on paper. The Bok team was full strength and they lost. Last week NZ field a team against Italy with a third of their big names absent and blow Italy off the Planet. There was nothing positive to salvage from this game. Oh and while I'm here. Stop singing your National Anthem with your eyes closed! You are going into battle not rehearsing for " Springbok Love Ballads Album.
I am looking at this after seeing Italy getting a regular hiding in the 6 nations, trying to understand why they didn't kick on. Maybe it's just SA were terrible
ANC meddling aside, its BAD BAD management, no succession planning, with regards to players and coaches. SA rugby needs to take a hard long look at it self, this before its too late. One meeting of the coaches this is not enough, this needs to happen, over and over again. AC needs to take the fall and we need a Mitchell a Mallet a Jake White, WITH POLITICAL INTERFERENCE.
Argentina, Japan and now Italy. South African rugby is now one dimensional, the next Springbok coach should sit down with all the super rugby coaches in SA and really find out why these players are making the same mistakes all the time, there is no leadership from SA players anymore. Springbok rugby needs a coach who will ignore politics and have the balls to do it his way, we are a bloody joke!
00000 00000 Nothing has happened with our soccer. and that is what will happen to our rugby as well. Not melodramatic, but just realistic. We have damaged our rugby irreparably and it will take us a good 10 to 15 years to fix the full scope of rugby in SA.
Christian Gerhardt Oh come on,your soccer will improve if you invest enough money,you are not that bad,are you? SA has a great tradition in rugby,nothing is irreparable damaged,you only need to recover.
I was waiting for someone to come up with this! :) You have won the internet! #epicwin I knew someone would put a Springbok topped Pizza related post after all that!
the only team the all blacks use to fear.the quota system needs to go. bok rugby has suffered because of it.losing to the itai's the only way now is up.love the abs playing the boks the ultimate rugby game.
SA are lost!!! They need to ditch the quota system, pick players based on merit not on colour. The coaching staff are under qualified and inexperienced. Big changes need to be made and made quickly. As a kiwi and proud All Black supporter, I want to see the Boks back at the top, well second place anyway. Come on guys, get your acts together!!!
SA are on a downward spiral, Stupid quota system etc is killing them. You could make a better SA team from SA players playing in European leagues. You see SA players popping up all over. Its very sad. Also I am fed up of putting a lady on the panel simply for the sake of it !!
Sorry bud you do not have any supporters left for SA rugby! Not only the Players going overseas but the Full Blodded SA Supporters are going to start to support NZ!!!!
Especially seeing that their club sides aren't going anywhere. They'll always be the bottom of the Pro12. And yet they can pull together a team that every so often beats another tier 1 team.
I know, what with greater interest in rugby over in Georgia, their rugby is now more successful than their football. It doesn't necessarily mean they have great funding or an efficient structure in place, but it could definitely help out in the long run.
Italy seem to always have 1 big game every year or 2 where they play out of their skins and beat one of the big sides and then continue playing badly again after that where they lose constantly with the odd win against Scotland or Tonga etc. The French have been one of their victims a few times in recent years when they play well.
Nick Mallet talked about the players that went overseas, but it is often overlooked at school level where young school boys with loads of talent stop playing rugby because of transformation. You never hear about these guys because they never get to the level of making name for themselves. SA rugby will not improve under the quota system and it will get worse until we are as bad as Bafanna-bafanna. I've hated the all-blacks my whole life, but I might start supporting them until this mess gets sorted out.
Gabula Nayo I agree with you in a sense, why are rugby so bad under the quota system when our cricket is going forward even with it. It must be the coaching or the style of play
a sad day for South African Rugby ???... ah f**k off.. how about praising the Italians ??? Every team gets turned over.. nobody f**king died !! Delighted for Italy, brilliant for Rugby too. Could care less how SA feel.
I wonder what would happen if we made up a team consisting of only the best players we have, including those playing overseas like Bismark, Frans Steyn, Duane Vermeulen etc.. Those guys are uncompromising individuals and they seem to stand out like men between boys (current team)...they would not stand back and watch this happen if they were on the field. Our teams average age is 24 or something like that. Just think back to when you where that young, finding a way to win can't be easy without some seriously experienced guys taking charge. This is just my opinion, please see it at as that.
Gabula Nayo you are right that they are past their prime, but those are still players that dont roll over when times get tough. the time for change is always what people want...but we are changing willy nilly and not keeping the aspects in tact that are working. All our slumps have been when we chop and change consistantly. when we kept a core group of players for a couple of years and make sure they understood their roles we won the world cup...
Show some respect for your panelists on this show. Stop that bloody Twitter feed right underneath them! You don't see that on any UK or NZ rugby shows. Very distracting and pretty worthless.
Not once has Alistair put up his hand to say that he messed up. Not once. He's blamed the players after every loss. We need a new coach for obvious reasons (no structure, no gameplan, no flair, no confidence etc) but also because Alistair has lost the respect of his players. Players will never follow a man they whom they have no respect for. The whole management staff must voetsek. That Quota Stick must go coach high school rugby. Transformation MUST cannot continue while the Boks are in this sorry-state. Our quota coaches, Alistair and Stick, is what got us into this mess. And for those of you who think I'm being racist, Oregan Hoskins admitted that Stick and Coetzee's selection was purely based on their color. SARU needs to start from scratch to build the Boks up again. Firstly, they must Alistair and his clown-show management staff. Secondly, make Johan Ackerman head coach, Swys de Bruin assistant and skills coach, Franco Smith backline coach, Jake White and Brendan Venter as technical assistant and defensive coaches. And who is this chick in the studio? Get her out please! Piss off please. Your comments are stupid. Go be a journalist for fashion or something. You're sitting in the company of great men who certainly don't need to listen to your bullshit. Look at the horror on Jean's, Nick's and Naas' faces after this loss. So sad to see them this dissapointed.
even heineke meyer was better than this guy. apart from the fact that he waz playing old people and people who shouldn't be playing for the springboks and he wasn't giving black players a chance really coetzee is terrible
This team is confused and has no direction. It has no leadership and sorry but the heads need to fall from the top down. Politics have no place in sport. The president of the rugby union must go he has not created an environment for SA Rugby to field the best team at all. He does not have the sport at heart please resign and go f_up something else please stay away from this sport you clearly know nothing about. We need a head coach that can coach and bring out this teams full potential. There's is so much talent in this team we need someone to harness this power of talent in a team that can be dominating like we know SA Rugby can be. Once you have harnessed the talent properly you appoint a Captain worthy of leading such a great team with the necessary skill sett to lead and guide his team in battle. For now we are all witnesses to a sad truth of how not to do it, wake up SA we are doing it damn wrong!!
South African rugby need to look at themselves on their racial policy they should be kicked out pick players on their merit not on the colour of their skin or get kicked out rugby don't need you
00000 00000 100% Lions could beat them. They play positive Rugby, play with a game plan and a purpose. Any full strength NZ Super Rugby Team apart from the Blues could also beat Italy
00000 00000 I am not saying Italy couldn't beat South Africa, I am saying the team in South Africa who plays positive Rugby with all players and coaches on board with game plan could aka The Lions. If the Italian team played in the NZ conference of Super Rugby, they wouldn't even make the playoffs
EroticChewbacca They could win as they could lose. Before Italy's win nobody gave them credit,nobody believe they could beat South Africa,but they did.So don't take anything for granted,you could have surprise
It's crazy to see how far this team came. If someone told me after 2016 and 2017 that we will win the World Cup I'd have laughed in their faces.
Coming back here 8 years later after 2 World Cup wins. We have to appreciate how far we've come since this match.
Another Kiwi here who supports the ABs. Really sad to see this for SA rugby. If I remember back to my favourite moments in rugby I remember heroes and some of those heroes were bok players. Even the competition against the boks were moments I will never forget. I know the SA people are way to proud to let this get worse. Onward and upwards. All the best SA rugby!!!
@@warpig50 what do you expect he's a kiwi who supports a kiwi team...just like the argentinians who supports los pumas and the celts who supports the Scottish you get my drift.Go figure right
No green and gold until proven worthy of it again !!Well done to Italy 👏 Passion & heart
well said and interviewed owen nkumane!!! ✌️
As an All Blacks supporter, its so sad to see the state of our greatest & most respected foe in this position. Changes need to happen. I only hope that pride can be restored back in the once proud & feared Springbok rugby. The ABs need Springboks to be strong.
Bizarre that you wouldn't see this as a triumph for Italian rugby. Quit the elitism!
we would mate, big time, if we hadn't just thumped Italy 68-10 last week.
JP Rough And why it does matter?
it matters because this isn't a case of Italy on the up and up, culminating with a history breaking win. It's the boks on the down and down, which isn't a triumph for Italy. I guess best example is Ireland's history breaking win against the AB's -that's a triumph for Ireland.
JP Rough But even if they are down at the moment,they remaun the Springboks,a force of rugby.Italy is not yet,but still hasbeat them.
So,in comparision,your draw at football Wc wasn't history,since Italy was bad?
Maybe we need this. For years we have been playing a style of rugby that is stagnant. Its time we transcend into the modern era and play a brand of rugby that not only excites fans but sends fear into the eyes of the opponent. For months the panel has made reference to the ways the lions have developed since their 'crisis' era and I agree that a similar route has to be taken. In my heart I am hurt by the defeats but I still believe in my team. We cannot throw all the lions players into a springbok side and expect them to shine. I say work with the current crop of players and help them develop and believe.
i remember when italian football team lost against south corea in world championship. that's the beauty of any sport, you can be the best team in the world, but if you don't put your heart in the field and the other do there's no ranking that can exist. go italy!!
It's sad to see Springboks hitting new low. Hope this is the rock bottom. But happy for Parisse. At least he got the biggest scalp before ending his career.
Thank you NICK...for acknowledging the fact that ..there is unspeakable hurt among avid South African Rugby supporters
unspeakable hurt...wtf??
Congratulations to Italy for the win. Very sad to see the Boks in such a state. Chin up, at rock-bottom, there is no where to go but up. I look forward to a brighter future for SA rugby.
your comment aged very well my friend hahaha
GG Italy from New Zealand.
And who won the World Cup?? My springboks
Im a kiwi but damn hopefully s.a rugby bounces back soon. These northern hemisphere teams are on the rise!!
Well done to Italy. Okay The Springboks aren't a good team at the minute but they're a massive power and they'll have great teams again.
I'm here in the present day to say Well done South Africa you rose up from adversity to win the next World Cup 👍
That rabble in green-and-gold went on to win a Rugby Championship and the World Cup. Some comeback, this.
Would love to see Nick Smith on a NZ rugby show, sharp analyst. Even better in a leadership position in SARU
Although i stood behind allistair when he was appointed i now feel its time he GOES!
Sorry have to say something on this, Nick made a great point about losing players in their prime New Zealand is dealing with a mass Exodus of players in their prime... It's structure, not at team level it's the sports governing body that needs to change not the team whether it's their procedures or personal I don't know? But the team are feeling it more than anyone which can be the trigger to produce a better performance and start to get some confidence and belief... Their are certain factions in South Africa that I believe have an agenda that is only for personal gratification but I also believe that if South Africa looks at the big picture and looks long term not knee jerk reactions then you will see real rugby in it's truest form and I'm a Kiwi it sounds scary but awesome... Good Luck to the Springboks for the future...
Well, never knew Mike Catt had joined the Italy backroom staff. The more you know.
Miss that guy in the England setup. He'll do great things for Italy - and seems he already is.
south africa will be back to their normal selves in a few months goodluck from new zealand
Chur Agree. From Aussie.
Chur It will happen to all nations it happened to Wales they are still not the great team they were but there a good team , it has happened to England they went awful and Australia are still not the mighty team they were once winning world cups but we need all these nations to be back to there best .
Naas should start being the head of the panel
Maurice Ndlovu her job is to ask questions
Hats off to Italy. From an ABs man sad to see the boks go down like this. No collaboration, and unhappy organization is what I see. Its 80 percent of the problem. No doubt the boks can bounce back they have so in the past.
How are you still ranked 4th?
Alot of people are commenting as the Quota system as the problem but the problem is much bigger than that as that is just one issue, there are so many problems with South African Rugby now that they need to get right that I honestly couldn't list them all. In the video they realise that and they just didn't know where to start from as you basically have to start from the ground up again.
Sacking the coach, captain and removing quotas will not solve all the problems and will barely help at all, it could take years to get over this.
I hope the Springboks do sort themselves out quickly though as for us All Black fans the AB vs Bok test match is the ultimate and it wasn't that long ago we had some epics games in 2013-15. I have huge respect for the Springboks but this year I don't know what to think.
As a Kiwi seeing our biggest Rugby rival hit a all time low is really sad.I really hope South Africa get back to the South Africa of old for the sake of Southern Hemisphere rugby.
At 7:00 "Italy were 14 men down" God if they could only score 3 points against a single player!
I'm a All blacks supporter and I feel sorry for the Boks things definitely need to change.What I don't know but something needs to happen. I want a competitive Boks team. Southern hemisphere rugby needs a South African team that is competitive.
Three points that has caused this.1 Quota system
2 Players going over seas because we are poor
3 Coach is a quota. ( He has never won any tournament...)
No doubt the quota system has undermined the Boks but the gap between SA and the top nations is now so great that it cannot be explained by just the 3 points you have mentioned here Nick Mallet is right-SARU need to contract 150 plus players eligible to play for the Boks, irrespective of their race and make them available for selection. All the best players need to feel like they are wanted and there is a possibility they will be given an equal opportunity at selection based on performance alone. That said, it is also too easy for players to go abroad in their prime and after 3 years, or whatever it is, qualify to play for their adopted countries. It is shameful that so many SA born players end up turning out for Ireland, France etc
You are Correct but if you removed those three we would still be number 3.
Marnus Richter New Zealand looses a lot of players, and coaches (Joe Schmidt! ), and New Zealand has nowhere as much money
JDV is a fine one to speak, I mean he was one of the leading reasons a lost to Japan.
cmon boks!!!! we need ya'll to be strong!!!! from an abs fan!!!
An all-time low was losing to Japan, although then getting 3rd, pushing, was a recovery that softened the blow.
its like a nightmare come true for you poor bok fans but tbh honest it was coming. One thing is losing to NZ , Australia but Italy ffs
EJ Ioane We played better,that's all
agreed bro
And Japan
Im from France and wish to thank the ANC for sabotaging one of SA's best export. After years of trying, they finally managed to destroy this legend.
The ref was the big reason boys because Italy played dirtier than Argentina could ever. Saying that the ref didn't cause the Cheetahs captain not to pass with a triple overlap and break all the confidence and let players swear at eachother.
Saying that the coach is really bad and whoever selects the team doesnt watch Super 18 rugby because they just keep players which should retire and the public is gatvol.
We should force the coach and selectors to stop breaking the only pride we have left and let us pick the team and make the result to speak for itself.
The Public Springbok team who actually watch rugby with more than 2 brain cells. ( That was the worst team we had )
1.The Beast ( We need his strength and experience )
2. Malcolm Marx ( Best thrower and powerful on his feet like the young Bismark )
3. Marcel van der Merwe ( We need his weight and pressure on the other prop just like the kiwi replacement does )
4. Eben Etsebeth ( Again you want power for a good clean ball and this is our tank )
5. Pieter-Steph du Toit ( We need a good jumper and youth to grow together and hes got both )
6. Jaco Kriel ( Hes the best all rounder and supports everyone does twice the work and great motivator )
7. Roelof Smit ( Man this guy is all gas with no breaks and needs to recover real quick great talent )
8. Warren Whiteley ( Need i say more great leader and gives his all )
9. Ross Cronje ( You need someone who has a plan before he gets to the ball and doesnt try and do it all on his own )
10. Elton Jantjies or Lambe ( You need to give Jantjies freedom to do his own thing or get lambe back on track )
11. Sergeal Petersen ( You want the fastest and great lines this is it and work on his defense )
12. Francios Venter ( Great player just needs to run better lines and think a bit more when under pressure )
13. Mapoe or Jansen ( Mapoe can think on his feet but cracks under pressure and Jansen needs to run beter lines )
14. The tall black guy ( Sorry guys cant remember his name but he started the 2 last tries against the barbarians )
15. Ruan Combrink ( Yes i know hes a wing but hell be a great fullback and can keep up with any line break and speed )
Thats my team guys that will crush every single team and give England and Kiwis are run for their money. But thats not a full squad so add your backup players in the comments and lets get this ball rolling. Please leave a like if you agree with me and a thumbs down if you dont. Come on boytjies we can do this !
Luthais Italy was punished with a yellow.
Accept a fair defeat,don't be a sore loser
Maybe the super rugby format has affected SA rugby. Kiwi teams hardly play Springbok teams this year.
Nick Mallet knows the story.
Jean de Villiers is also learning proper rugby now.
please please please SA rugby can you keep your quota system in place. I really enjoy watching my All Blacks humiliate you guys by 40+ test match after test match and as long as u retain the quota system this will continue.
Nick Mallet please coach SA
I keep waiting for the presenter to yell "Stoffel!" as a honey badger runs across the studio.
they need to learn and bring in the style that the lions played this yr
The way forward, top down approach: the arrogant minister fikile mbalula must keep out of Rugby. The goal is to play competitive good rugby and to win, not first and foremost "transformation" (I say this with Oregan Hoskins in mind who stated that coaches who does not have "transformation" as their highest priority need not apply for the job)
Administrators must do their jobs and create an environment that keeps our players here and once we are successful again ensure continuity in coaching staff and coaching skills. Forced "transformation" of players and coaching staff must stop immediately, coaches have enough to worry about as it is.
Coaches of any colour that has been appointed on merit must do their job and select in form players of any colour. If you are white and used to be good you are out - you must be good now. If you are black and used to be good you are out - you must be good now. Coaches must also move with the times with regards to current competitive strategies. They should ensure the players are superfit, skillful and motivated.
Without the above happening South African Rugby will continue to "transform" into the joke that it is becoming now. Fikile Mbalula must take responsibility. If you want to stick your big nose in, you must own up if you create a mess.
FIKILE needs to read this
Well said Abel. If you think that equality of outcome is true equality, then you understand nothing on freedom of choice and appointment on merit. What if quota systems were put in place for the SA soccer team to appoint white players because of perceived discrimination, rather than excepting that more blacks are better soccer players, and are more likely to take up soccer as a sport than whites.
As long as there is equal opportunity for everyone by law, then let the law take care of discrimination as needed. Quota systems do not work and are based on a mentality that the only reason there is a greater demographic of a certain group of people that dominate in a field, then it must be discrimination.
As a kiwi, I am sad to see where the Springbok are heading. It was painfully obvious to predict that when the quota system was put in place, that SA rugby, and all the fans, were going to suffer from this. You guys did so well to move on from the apartheid, but now racism has reversed direction. I know that sounds harsh, but when people are appointed on colour, when others are better qualified, then surely that is the definition of racism?
I believe it is VERY IMPORTANT that SA people use logic and reason to repel the Marxist ideology that is creeping in, before your freedom of speech is taken away, and it is too late.......
Insightful reply Simon. The sad fact is that freedom of speech is already affected. For example, everyone in the studio on the above clip knows the big problem is political interferance. Should one of them say something remotely critical about our enforced selection policies they will dissappear from that show as fast as mist before the sun.
I don't want them to say anything because the only reason I watch the show is for Nick Mallett, Naas Botha and Breyton Paulse. If they were forced to leave I would stop watching.
The tragedy is that we have fantastic black players who really does not need a quota system. It is unfair to them and to the coaches.
We really admire your administrative system in NZ. They create an environment that develops and protects skill. I did not want to believe Graham Henry when he said the Springbok's competitive days are over, but I have since realized that he was spot on.
I just keep hoping that strong leaders will appear that can bring change.
Thanks for the reply Abel. I figured that the presenters tongues were tied when it came to the political interference. I have observed that the rest of the world were very vocal with the apartheid, but because of the PC culture that is in the western world, all you hear is crickets when it comes to this issue.
You have some fantastic black players in your country, and as a AB fan, know the potential that a mixed race team can bring to the table as rugby caters for all body types. This makes rugby a very unique game in my opinion in this sense. Bryan Habana is one of my favourite players, and in my opinion is the best winger of all time, when you take his career as a whole.
I really like Mallet, Botha and Paulse. They offer great insight to the tactics of the game and are clearly very knowledgeable on the game. I watch the show regularly after a SB game to see a detailed analysis. Willemse is great as well.
I don't know if you are aware of a guy called Jordon Peterson from Canada? He is a university professor of psychology. He is facing a issue with freedom of speech in Canada, and his job is on the line for speaking out against the PC culture that try to control what you can or cannot say.
Jordon Peterson issue is with being forced to use gender pronouns of a person choice, which there are potentially a infinite number, and already about 76 already exist. I know this sounds like a completely different topic, but if you go to Peterson's UA-cam channel (type in his name and you will find it) you will find that it has a lot of similarities to the issue in SA, where Marxist ideology forces people do conform through authoritarian methods, rather than let a natural process take its course.
I would recommend listening to his lectures a talks, Peterson is a very insightful person on this topic. I am a strong believer in talking the truth as you see it, and using discussion to fix problems, as violence never solves anything. When discussion is taken away, you are no longer able to counter with reason and logic as you have no voice. All the best Abel, and I hope reason will win the day. Hope you guys beat Wales next week, they will be tough for a SB team down in confidence. All the best mate.
from a Kiwi's point of view and I don't care if the Politically Correct Brigade get upset over this, but you have to get rid of the quota system. its ruined Springbok Rugby!!!
Naas only one talking my mind
I'm an all black fan, but some of those springbok errors were amateur at best, I feel for those bok fans, fire all 15 players and start with youth, at least they will ignite some of the passion lost on this team
The players have shown they are the best in the country, its the coaching team that brings out the worst in them.
People are saying this is the biggest disappointment for SA rugby. Really? Not the game against Japan? In the WORLD CUP? This is just a test match with the only downside being a drop in the rankings. There's still the Wales game. Although, I can understand fears about that game. But even if SA are put into a shit pool come next May, there's a lot of time between now and 2019. Hell, there's a lot of time between now and next Rugby Championship.
Let the coach choose his assistant coaches, not the government........................................
mate that's the elephant in the room that the blokes in studio wouldnt talk about. Yes the structures in SA have had a bit of a shamble look, but what you've brought up is the reason SA is in this crisis.
SA is huge crises, on & off the field. Political decisions effecting selection, the Rand collapsing, ETC Its a pity the country is collapsing from with in .
Bring back Jake White. He was there last great coach
I just don't get how the Boks can play this bad? The talent is there so there is no excuse, clearly something is wrong with the management and coaching. It's not like retaining your best players is a new problem, remember back to 09 when Frans Steyn and Heinrich Brussow two of the best young players in the world sold out to rich Euro rugby clubs. Something needs to be done and soon! It's sad seeing the Boks fall this low
It is not just Coetzee, who is clearly out of his depth (now we are watching his Stormers Deluxe with basically no meaningful offense which has been the case for years he was in charge), not all his staff (for example, Stick, ffs, what he can bring to the table, he himself needs help). The problem is broader - apart from the Lions, nobody played well this year, just nobody. Plus SA rugby is run by clowns and system is not Bok orientated. Unless that changes, the likes of Namibia, Uruguay etc. might be the next to have Bok scalp.
Put jean back on the paddock!!! And the rest of them. How dare he retire! He still looks in good shape!
On ix - I hope that was tongue in cheek from you.
uChakide
Well wtf else do u recommend?
On ix - well I don't recommend recalling old players who were once decent in the blind hope that this will fix things. There is a reason he retired (note he was not dropped!).
My suggestion is similar to what Mallet alluded to, institute a top down management of our players, ban the brain-dead kick and defend approach, and start to instill an attacking mindset in our players that includes running into spaces (not over defenders) and offloading (not the 1-dimensional crashball).
uChakide
no tried and true? get them involved in this change process at least! Weve alwaya known of the SA playing stratergy. Were they always to proud to change the way they played? Why do they have to wait until the brown sticky stuff hits the rotational device in the ceiling before they decide to change their structure and stray?
On ix - I didn't say that my suggestions were the only ones. We have changed the way we played a few times. However, as Mallet said, this situation has been at least 7 years in the making. There is nothing wrong with a strong forward game, but this needs to be coupled with imagination and game awareness so that you aren't just going through the motions. Our phase play is so predictable that there were times when nearly the entire Italian frontline defence structure were in the right place waiting before the boks had even commited to the move.
Congratulations Fikile MBALULA you have got your wish 👌 Yet another fuckup from the " wonderful" black government
Please nick save the boks !
Mamma mia! Bopity boopy bopity boopy!!!
SA are horrible winners...they do all that we will crush you crap. But now that teams have got bigger as we really start to settle into pro rugby, average teams have figured out that they just need to be brave and there's no fear of the traditional brutish and all too often violent style of 'Bok' rugby because the rules don't allow it and teams can stand up to them. Today, Italy did nothing out of the ordinary - just stood up physically to a nation that has produce generations of bullies, speckled with a few flair guys. Bravo!
I blame Zuma for everything wrong that happens in SA 😅
What is alarming is on paper. The Bok team was full strength and they lost.
Last week NZ field a team against Italy with a third of their big names absent and blow Italy off the Planet. There was nothing positive to salvage from this game. Oh and while I'm here. Stop singing your National Anthem with your eyes closed! You are going into battle not rehearsing for " Springbok Love Ballads Album.
Do you know where I can by that album?
I am looking at this after seeing Italy getting a regular hiding in the 6 nations, trying to understand why they didn't kick on. Maybe it's just SA were terrible
ANC meddling aside, its BAD BAD management, no succession planning, with regards to players and coaches. SA rugby needs to take a hard long look at it self, this before its too late. One meeting of the coaches this is not enough, this needs to happen, over and over again. AC needs to take the fall and we need a Mitchell a Mallet a Jake White, WITH POLITICAL INTERFERENCE.
Argentina, Japan and now Italy. South African rugby is now one dimensional, the next Springbok coach should sit down with all the super rugby coaches in SA and really find out why these players are making the same mistakes all the time, there is no leadership from SA players anymore. Springbok rugby needs a coach who will ignore politics and have the balls to do it his way, we are a bloody joke!
An upset? South Africa are abject right now...both sides got spanked by 40 odd points by the All Blacks. A close score with these two is about right.
xpat73 South Africa remain South Africa,so it was not easy.
i think we need to clean up the springbok team (ie) if you play bad or keep making mess ups you must be dropet
Storm in a tea cup.
we will never be the same. Springbok rugby like SA soccer is dead internationally.
Christian Gerhardt Why,what happened to SA soccer?
And don't be so melodramatic
00000 00000 Nothing has happened with our soccer. and that is what will happen to our rugby as well. Not melodramatic, but just realistic. We have damaged our rugby irreparably and it will take us a good 10 to 15 years to fix the full scope of rugby in SA.
Christian Gerhardt Oh come on,your soccer will improve if you invest enough money,you are not that bad,are you?
SA has a great tradition in rugby,nothing is irreparable damaged,you only need to recover.
00000 00000 We have been trying to improve our soccer for the last 20 years.
Christian Gerhardt Well,go on trying.Something has to be improved by then
they served some pizza with springbok's for toppings
Maurice Ndlovu it's italian
I was waiting for someone to come up with this! :) You have won the internet! #epicwin I knew someone would put a Springbok topped Pizza related post after all that!
***** It is true it is! :)
Arco Che Non Si Spezza Not,the Usa army,the italians with the ingredients given by Usa army
Maurice Ndlovu Is italian,from Naples
the only team the all blacks use to fear.the quota system needs to go. bok rugby has suffered because of it.losing to the itai's the only way now is up.love the abs playing the boks the ultimate rugby game.
lol. Naas the "Afrikaans Shakespeare" Botha......
SA are lost!!! They need to ditch the quota system, pick players based on merit not on colour. The coaching staff are under qualified and inexperienced. Big changes need to be made and made quickly. As a kiwi and proud All Black supporter, I want to see the Boks back at the top, well second place anyway. Come on guys, get your acts together!!!
SA are on a downward spiral, Stupid quota system etc is killing them. You could make a better SA team from SA players playing in European leagues. You see SA players popping up all over. Its very sad. Also I am fed up of putting a lady on the panel simply for the sake of it !!
Coetzee must abdicate, it would be the right thing to do.
sa is sucking so hard these days.I laughed at the boks hope they fix this mess.SA used to be good you know
oh dear
Sorry bud you do not have any supporters left for SA rugby! Not only the Players going overseas but the Full Blodded SA Supporters are going to start to support NZ!!!!
im bemused by Italy, they play badly for ages then suddenly beat SA
Especially seeing that their club sides aren't going anywhere. They'll always be the bottom of the Pro12. And yet they can pull together a team that every so often beats another tier 1 team.
I know, what with greater interest in rugby over in Georgia, their rugby is now more successful than their football. It doesn't necessarily mean they have great funding or an efficient structure in place, but it could definitely help out in the long run.
Italy seem to always have 1 big game every year or 2 where they play out of their skins and beat one of the big sides and then continue playing badly again after that where they lose constantly with the odd win against Scotland or Tonga etc. The French have been one of their victims a few times in recent years when they play well.
Alex Lovell I would love to see them beat Wales or England.
Yep definitely England, problem is now Italy won't be due for a big game like that for a while now. Maybe Scotland can beat England in their place lol
Nick Mallet talked about the players that went overseas, but it is often overlooked at school level where young school boys with loads of talent stop playing rugby because of transformation. You never hear about these guys because they never get to the level of making name for themselves. SA rugby will not improve under the quota system and it will get worse until we are as bad as Bafanna-bafanna. I've hated the all-blacks my whole life, but I might start supporting them until this mess gets sorted out.
Gabula Nayo I agree with you in a sense, why are rugby so bad under the quota system when our cricket is going forward even with it. It must be the coaching or the style of play
yes Nick however untill politics is out of sport me as a Sprinbok supporter will not watch rugby anymore. we have a culture of mediocrity
a sad day for South African Rugby ???... ah f**k off.. how about praising the Italians ??? Every team gets turned over.. nobody f**king died !! Delighted for Italy, brilliant for Rugby too. Could care less how SA feel.
it is mindset. the bokke lose creativity at senior level, the youth sides play good rugby, then 1985 10 man rugby ... usually. embrace change or die.
get rid of the coach
They don't have great leadership. They loss greats like Smit, Mattfield, De Villiers.
Good luck Boks from a Welshman get back .
I wonder what would happen if we made up a team consisting of only the best players we have, including those playing overseas like Bismark, Frans Steyn, Duane Vermeulen etc.. Those guys are uncompromising individuals and they seem to stand out like men between boys (current team)...they would not stand back and watch this happen if they were on the field. Our teams average age is 24 or something like that. Just think back to when you where that young, finding a way to win can't be easy without some seriously experienced guys taking charge. This is just my opinion, please see it at as that.
Gabula Nayo you are right that they are past their prime, but those are still players that dont roll over when times get tough. the time for change is always what people want...but we are changing willy nilly and not keeping the aspects in tact that are working. All our slumps have been when we chop and change consistantly. when we kept a core group of players for a couple of years and make sure they understood their roles we won the world cup...
Show some respect for your panelists on this show. Stop that bloody Twitter feed right underneath them! You don't see that on any UK or NZ rugby shows. Very distracting and pretty worthless.
Not once has Alistair put up his hand to say that he messed up. Not once. He's blamed the players after every loss. We need a new coach for obvious reasons (no structure, no gameplan, no flair, no confidence etc) but also because Alistair has lost the respect of his players. Players will never follow a man they whom they have no respect for. The whole management staff must voetsek. That Quota Stick must go coach high school rugby. Transformation MUST cannot continue while the Boks are in this sorry-state. Our quota coaches, Alistair and Stick, is what got us into this mess. And for those of you who think I'm being racist, Oregan Hoskins admitted that Stick and Coetzee's selection was purely based on their color. SARU needs to start from scratch to build the Boks up again. Firstly, they must Alistair and his clown-show management staff. Secondly, make Johan Ackerman head coach, Swys de Bruin assistant and skills coach, Franco Smith backline coach, Jake White and Brendan Venter as technical assistant and defensive coaches. And who is this chick in the studio? Get her out please! Piss off please. Your comments are stupid. Go be a journalist for fashion or something. You're sitting in the company of great men who certainly don't need to listen to your bullshit. Look at the horror on Jean's, Nick's and Naas' faces after this loss. So sad to see them this dissapointed.
I could drag 15 guys out of a pub in new zealand on friday night that would beat this bok team
even heineke meyer was better than this guy. apart from the fact that he waz playing old people and people who shouldn't be playing for the springboks and he wasn't giving black players a chance really coetzee is terrible
This team is confused and has no direction.
It has no leadership and sorry but the heads need to fall from the top down.
Politics have no place in sport. The president of the rugby union must go he has not created an environment for SA Rugby to field the best team at all. He does not have the sport at heart please resign and go f_up something else please stay away from this sport you clearly know nothing about.
We need a head coach that can coach and bring out this teams full potential.
There's is so much talent in this team we need someone to harness this power of talent in a team that can be dominating like we know SA Rugby can be.
Once you have harnessed the talent properly you appoint a Captain worthy of leading such a great team with the necessary skill sett to lead and guide his team in battle. For now we are all witnesses to a sad truth of how not to do it, wake up SA we are doing it damn wrong!!
Bye bye AC
South African rugby need to look at themselves on their racial policy they should be kicked out pick players on their merit not on the colour of their skin or get kicked out rugby don't need you
Lions could beat Italy. Take from that what you want
EroticChewbacca South Africa couldn't though......a club could? And if that happen,whatever,All Blacks lost to Munster but not to Ireland,in '70
00000 00000 100% Lions could beat them. They play positive Rugby, play with a game plan and a purpose. Any full strength NZ Super Rugby Team apart from the Blues could also beat Italy
EroticChewbacca White said so himself,he said also Italy could never beat South Africa.You saw how it ended.....
00000 00000 I am not saying Italy couldn't beat South Africa, I am saying the team in South Africa who plays positive Rugby with all players and coaches on board with game plan could aka The Lions. If the Italian team played in the NZ conference of Super Rugby, they wouldn't even make the playoffs
EroticChewbacca They could win as they could lose.
Before Italy's win nobody gave them credit,nobody believe they could beat South Africa,but they did.So don't take anything for granted,you could have surprise
I don't think there is any way back now for this junk.
Jonathan Day LOL