I could never live with that setup, doesn't match what am seeking sonically at all but I feel really happy for him. He clearly seems to have been able to fulfill his dream setup. Whenever one feels like "It's perfect. How can that even get any better?" it's the right setup for someone. 🙃
@@whatsbestforum Hello, it's entirely based on my experience having been in this hobby for 26 years already. My personal taste is heavily geared towards SET class A no feedback tube chains (with few exceptions in the market, e.g. the Nagra HD line). So it's not a chain I would personally put together since it doesn't fit my personal taste. However, I am aware of the multitude of possibilities to put together fine systems and this is certainly a very fine chain. I am basing it on my experiences I have had hearing some of the gear used here at various circumstances at shows (I know, shows and their compromised setups under show conditions but it often has to serve as a first measure which directions you are willing to pursue further). So, for instance, the G3 Trio and the CH precision stuff, while being top notch gear, just doesn't seem to do it for me personally. The sonic presentation doesn't appeal to me compared to certain different approaches of other brands. This has nothing to do with the quality of the gear itself, just like with every hobby there is a good portion of personal taste involved. Hearing the personal conclusion of the owner of this chain I felt happy for him since I am familiar with the process of having to audition a lot of things until you find something that just ticks all your boxes and works out for you. So when he said that it can't possibly get any better I knew that, while it's probably not true and we all have that itch to tune the system even more, at the same time it sounds like he found the combination that is just right for him and I can relate to that feeling. It's an amazing feeling and only those who have been there after their own journey will understand this.
@@andreas7278 Thank you for your very detailed and thoughtful reply! I happen to be a tube person as well, so I fundamentally agree with you. I believe in the maxim: "There should be a tube somewhere in the system." Todd now has Phasemation tube amps, which sound wonderful on AG.
@@whatsbestforum I am not familiar with Phasemation tube amps. Personally I am a big believer of tube gear with a very neutral voicing, i.e. not that typical overly warm thick tuby sound that a lot of people think of when they hear tube gear and certainly exists in all shades in this industry. For me it's not really about having a tube in somewhere per se, it just is that well engineered DHT tube gear has the possibility for a very lifelike presentation due to the side effects of going down that engineering route, i.e. very short signal paths, extremely linear behavior (when driven with the right DHT tubes within their respective good ranges, good manufacturers limit output to these ranges) instead of having to correct for it, use of film capacitors instead of electrolytic capacitors, typically by default class A (no switching) and no feedback applied (which is not true for all gear and can also be done for FET or bipolar transistor gear and the difference to class AB or class D can clearly be heard; also leads to very immediate pulse response), no higher order distortions which the human is very susceptible too (so nothing to hide/correct, it's just absent all together as long as no feedback is applied as a shortcut to reduce THD values) & resonance behavior approaches that one of the one created inside human ear with low order distortions based on some psychoacoustic scientific papers done on this subject (fun fact is that the up to nearly 10% of low even order distortion is created inside our ear canal by all sounds we pick up, so these types of distortions are natural to us, we hear them all the time not just in hifi and as long as they don't get too high/much higher we are used to we are not bothered by them), vacuum and what I see in high quality constructions often gold, zirconium and the likes in tubes instead of plastic in bipolar transistors. Each topology lends itself to certain pros/cons due to the inherent culprits of that construction. Now tubes also have a couple of downsides and certainly don't work in any system or for everyone but I find it much easier to find DHT tube gear where the presentation simply appears naturally in the room while I have heard some kind of artificial presentation in many solid state designs (e.g. colorations in voices). As always a lot depends on the specific implementation but the topology sets quite a few relevant parameters from the start. The optimum would be no added noise, coloration or anything of that sort in a system but we all know that this will never be truly achieved. Some compromise is inherent to the problem of a complex playback chain. I believe that one of the reasons tube gear survived (same with some other stuff like vinyl) is the absence of some issues (as limited as some things in vinyl seem there are quite a few issues one has to deal with when going digital, all kinds of noise that has to be dealt with) and the let's call it "lucky coincidence" that the distortion pattern of tubes (w.r.t. amplitude, frequency as well as the combination of harmonic distortions) is somewhat similar to the human hearing as mentioned. Back then people didn't know that, the scientific papers finding that out came decades later but humankind simply only had tubes (and some other very specific niche analogue amplification devices but not for the masses) at their disposal. So while modern approaches are nice in many ways (energy efficiency, power output and all the good stuff) they have to fight other battles (just like e.g. a good parallel set DHT tube mono amp has to go the extra mile just to get sufficient power output within their linear range or be current stable to deal with less than optimal impedance loads maybe dropping to 2 ohms, a feat that a very basic class D amplifier module can do "quite easily" in comparison). Some companies rightfully in my eyes have started to not only see it from an engeering standpoint but start their designs from a psychoacoustic standpoint. Human hearing is not linear, we are used to have increased distortion at higher levels, we are used to hear certain reflections, we are also extremely tuned to certain aspects such as slight errors in timing since that was fundamental for pinpointing from where an intruder approached in the stone age (direction and speed is just a result of very fine differences in timing after all). Very slight manipulations of amplitudes at certain frequencies (up to a maximum of 0.5dB, often times 0.1 or 0.2dB is enough) can for instance move soundstage back and forth or adjust vertical soundstage. There are many aspects in hifi that are a direct result of the way our brain interprets sounds the way we evolved as the human species and highend gear seems to only start to incorporate more of these things. There are a few companies that base their whole engineering concepts on psychoacoustics such as Kaiser Acoustics or Riviera Labs. So they try to "get it right" not by putting their own soundstamp on it (even though each gear has some of their own intentional voicing) but by trying to find a way to approach the most neutral human perception which often is not the linear measurement. But in the end, whatever system you have, once you personally find that it "just sounds right" and manage to forget the gear to enjoy the illusion of a real presentation you are there and it doesn't really matter what gear you have chosen. For different people different approaches seem to do just that.
Each element of Todd's configuration -- Trios far into the room and away from the front wall, toed-in, and tweeters aimed at ears -- is unusual for Avantgarde set-ups. I fully endorse Todd's configuration, as the proof is in the listening. Visually I felt I was disconcertingly close to the tweeters sitting in the center of Todd's couch, but that distance actually is 11 feet. I thought I might hear less than a solidly-centered solo vocal image, but I did not. The solo vocal image was centered and solid.
@@whatsbestforumHow many hours have you been listening to this system? I always believe one needs days of listening if not weeks to fully understand the system before passing any judgement.
@@anthonycheng5803 Hello Anthony, I understand your point and, in concept, I do not disagree if the objective is to "fully understand" a system I am visiting. "Fully understanding" would also require swapping out associated components and engaging in various comparisons. But how practical or realistic is it for me to travel around the United States, or to travel around the world, and expect to be able to spend days or weeks with my hosts? No, that won't work. We should not let the perfect be the enemy of the useful. I can develop useful and reportable impressions -- typically with caveats and qualifications-- in a few hours or in a couple of days.
I don’t think acoustic treatment needs to be changed with new speakers. acoustic treatment is about reflections, reverb and absorption room spec’s. Awesome room btw oh and taiko Olympus might be a new addition. 😅
This interview was filled with ideas about room acoustics with which I disagree. There was no mention of bass traps. I have never heard the expression "too much diffusion confusion" or whatever it was. I don't think diffusion interferes as much with spatial cues from the recording as does straight room reflection. Personally I have zero interest in hearing the listening room at all. I am currently doing a complete rebuild of my dedicated listening room and I am taking a very very different approach. Total absorption all the way down to 20 hz is the goal of my rebuild.
@@ColocasiaCorm "Different placement different treatment" Yes I have a couple questions. Are you saying move the existing treatment to directly address first order reflections when you move the speaker position or are you saying use different kinds of treatment? Or different amounts of treatment when you move the speaker position?
@@scottwheeler2679 so you’re going floor to ceiling with 10ft deep rockwool? Good luck with that. The less experienced the audiophile the louder they are.
I love that color and those speakers, the listening room is also beautiful but the CH precision electronics don't match the speakers. Better choice Kondo or Pass Labs electronics. The final result is similar to that of a portable radio: bass and spatial definition are missing, micro detail and mid range too. An appreciation, however, for the economic effort
@@marcfly810 Hello Marc, Some audiophiles disagree but I feel very strongly that one cannot understand the sound of an unfamiliar recording in an unfamiliar system with unfamiliar components in an unfamiliar listening room through a digital UA-cam video. The music in my video interviews is essentially background music - - like elevator music - - just to have some accompaniment to the video of the listening room and of the components comprising the system. The music should not be listened to as any accurate representation of the in-the-room sound I heard. Digital video recordings of unfamiliar analog audio systems playing an unfamiliar recording in an unfamiliar room can reveal at most a solitary component change, but cannot be used to compare two unfamiliar systems, and cannot convey generally the in-the-room sound of an unfamiliar system.
@@marcfly810 It is not only about a familiar song. And how do you know we are talking about the identical mastering and resolution and format of that recording? Even with a familiar song you have an unfamiliar system in an unfamiliar room. There is nothing useful or accurate that can be discerned about the sound of the system from the video.
Upper mids come across as shouty. Hard floors, hmmm So many people with more money than knowledge seem to be so obsessed with detail. And it just sounds edgy and digital to me. Couple that with the forwardness of horns. Eek. Nordost is such a fail. Horrible horrible cables. If the owner reads this, get rid of every single nordost cable, replace them with some shunyata or argento. Then it will be more tube like.
Shouty...? - mic capsules - mic orientation - camera processing - UA-cam I/O - listeners device - listeners headphone/loudspeaker influence All these components must be navigated by the signal ... thus considered as legit elements of significance. Not to mention subjective biases in knowing it's fully horn loaded multi-way playback (save for the Torus sub). We all know this, yet we all ... myself included, dig UA-cam demos. We experience sound 𝙙𝙧𝙖𝙢𝙖𝙩𝙞𝙘𝙖𝙡𝙡𝙮 different from the way mic capsules capture acoustic energy. Most importantly, the one defining characteristic these Avant Gardes possess; Intensity ... cannot be captured via these recordings/mics.
@@FOH3663 No doubt, a youtube video tells you nothing about sound quality. But "Intensity?" That doesn't seem like a characteristic of a speaker. Source material sure. But the speaker?
This is a fantastic system. I am honored to have listened to this system and contributed also.
Ron, great interview! And great follow-on thread on WBF. Very enjoyable.
I am happy you liked it!
I could never live with that setup, doesn't match what am seeking sonically at all but I feel really happy for him. He clearly seems to have been able to fulfill his dream setup. Whenever one feels like "It's perfect. How can that even get any better?" it's the right setup for someone. 🙃
@@andreas7278 Hello Andreas,
Thank you for your comment.
On what basis are you concluding that it doesn't match what you were seeking sonically?
@@whatsbestforum Hello, it's entirely based on my experience having been in this hobby for 26 years already. My personal taste is heavily geared towards SET class A no feedback tube chains (with few exceptions in the market, e.g. the Nagra HD line). So it's not a chain I would personally put together since it doesn't fit my personal taste. However, I am aware of the multitude of possibilities to put together fine systems and this is certainly a very fine chain. I am basing it on my experiences I have had hearing some of the gear used here at various circumstances at shows (I know, shows and their compromised setups under show conditions but it often has to serve as a first measure which directions you are willing to pursue further). So, for instance, the G3 Trio and the CH precision stuff, while being top notch gear, just doesn't seem to do it for me personally. The sonic presentation doesn't appeal to me compared to certain different approaches of other brands. This has nothing to do with the quality of the gear itself, just like with every hobby there is a good portion of personal taste involved.
Hearing the personal conclusion of the owner of this chain I felt happy for him since I am familiar with the process of having to audition a lot of things until you find something that just ticks all your boxes and works out for you. So when he said that it can't possibly get any better I knew that, while it's probably not true and we all have that itch to tune the system even more, at the same time it sounds like he found the combination that is just right for him and I can relate to that feeling. It's an amazing feeling and only those who have been there after their own journey will understand this.
@@andreas7278 Thank you for your very detailed and thoughtful reply!
I happen to be a tube person as well, so I fundamentally agree with you. I believe in the maxim: "There should be a tube somewhere in the system."
Todd now has Phasemation tube amps, which sound wonderful on AG.
@@whatsbestforum I am not familiar with Phasemation tube amps. Personally I am a big believer of tube gear with a very neutral voicing, i.e. not that typical overly warm thick tuby sound that a lot of people think of when they hear tube gear and certainly exists in all shades in this industry. For me it's not really about having a tube in somewhere per se, it just is that well engineered DHT tube gear has the possibility for a very lifelike presentation due to the side effects of going down that engineering route, i.e. very short signal paths, extremely linear behavior (when driven with the right DHT tubes within their respective good ranges, good manufacturers limit output to these ranges) instead of having to correct for it, use of film capacitors instead of electrolytic capacitors, typically by default class A (no switching) and no feedback applied (which is not true for all gear and can also be done for FET or bipolar transistor gear and the difference to class AB or class D can clearly be heard; also leads to very immediate pulse response), no higher order distortions which the human is very susceptible too (so nothing to hide/correct, it's just absent all together as long as no feedback is applied as a shortcut to reduce THD values) & resonance behavior approaches that one of the one created inside human ear with low order distortions based on some psychoacoustic scientific papers done on this subject (fun fact is that the up to nearly 10% of low even order distortion is created inside our ear canal by all sounds we pick up, so these types of distortions are natural to us, we hear them all the time not just in hifi and as long as they don't get too high/much higher we are used to we are not bothered by them), vacuum and what I see in high quality constructions often gold, zirconium and the likes in tubes instead of plastic in bipolar transistors. Each topology lends itself to certain pros/cons due to the inherent culprits of that construction. Now tubes also have a couple of downsides and certainly don't work in any system or for everyone but I find it much easier to find DHT tube gear where the presentation simply appears naturally in the room while I have heard some kind of artificial presentation in many solid state designs (e.g. colorations in voices). As always a lot depends on the specific implementation but the topology sets quite a few relevant parameters from the start. The optimum would be no added noise, coloration or anything of that sort in a system but we all know that this will never be truly achieved. Some compromise is inherent to the problem of a complex playback chain.
I believe that one of the reasons tube gear survived (same with some other stuff like vinyl) is the absence of some issues (as limited as some things in vinyl seem there are quite a few issues one has to deal with when going digital, all kinds of noise that has to be dealt with) and the let's call it "lucky coincidence" that the distortion pattern of tubes (w.r.t. amplitude, frequency as well as the combination of harmonic distortions) is somewhat similar to the human hearing as mentioned. Back then people didn't know that, the scientific papers finding that out came decades later but humankind simply only had tubes (and some other very specific niche analogue amplification devices but not for the masses) at their disposal. So while modern approaches are nice in many ways (energy efficiency, power output and all the good stuff) they have to fight other battles (just like e.g. a good parallel set DHT tube mono amp has to go the extra mile just to get sufficient power output within their linear range or be current stable to deal with less than optimal impedance loads maybe dropping to 2 ohms, a feat that a very basic class D amplifier module can do "quite easily" in comparison). Some companies rightfully in my eyes have started to not only see it from an engeering standpoint but start their designs from a psychoacoustic standpoint. Human hearing is not linear, we are used to have increased distortion at higher levels, we are used to hear certain reflections, we are also extremely tuned to certain aspects such as slight errors in timing since that was fundamental for pinpointing from where an intruder approached in the stone age (direction and speed is just a result of very fine differences in timing after all). Very slight manipulations of amplitudes at certain frequencies (up to a maximum of 0.5dB, often times 0.1 or 0.2dB is enough) can for instance move soundstage back and forth or adjust vertical soundstage. There are many aspects in hifi that are a direct result of the way our brain interprets sounds the way we evolved as the human species and highend gear seems to only start to incorporate more of these things. There are a few companies that base their whole engineering concepts on psychoacoustics such as Kaiser Acoustics or Riviera Labs. So they try to "get it right" not by putting their own soundstamp on it (even though each gear has some of their own intentional voicing) but by trying to find a way to approach the most neutral human perception which often is not the linear measurement.
But in the end, whatever system you have, once you personally find that it "just sounds right" and manage to forget the gear to enjoy the illusion of a real presentation you are there and it doesn't really matter what gear you have chosen. For different people different approaches seem to do just that.
Thick tube bass can still be bought but tube amps rivaling solid state also exist nowadays
Amazing system and room.
another fie interview Ron. I love the black Trios.
Thank you!
Actually they are not black. They are a stealthy dark grey, or maybe characterized as "midnight grey."
Great stuff and a very erudite interviewee.
Thank you! I'm glad you liked it!
Amazing setup 👌 How was the 😮
vocal & bass center imaging Ron?
Each element of Todd's configuration -- Trios far into the room and away from the front wall, toed-in, and tweeters aimed at ears -- is unusual for Avantgarde set-ups. I fully endorse Todd's configuration, as the proof is in the listening.
Visually I felt I was disconcertingly close to the tweeters sitting in the center of Todd's couch, but that distance actually is 11 feet. I thought I might hear less than a solidly-centered solo vocal image, but I did not. The solo vocal image was centered and solid.
@@whatsbestforumHow many hours have you been listening to this system? I always believe one needs days of listening if not weeks to fully understand the system before passing any judgement.
@@anthonycheng5803 Hello Anthony,
I understand your point and, in concept, I do not disagree if the objective is to "fully understand" a system I am visiting. "Fully understanding" would also require swapping out associated components and engaging in various comparisons.
But how practical or realistic is it for me to travel around the United States, or to travel around the world, and expect to be able to spend days or weeks with my hosts? No, that won't work. We should not let the perfect be the enemy of the useful.
I can develop useful and reportable impressions -- typically with caveats and qualifications-- in a few hours or in a couple of days.
What did you use to record this?
Canon XA-50
I don’t think acoustic treatment needs to be changed with new speakers. acoustic treatment is about reflections, reverb and absorption room spec’s. Awesome room btw oh and taiko Olympus might be a new addition. 😅
Different speakers different dispersion. Different dispersion different placement. Different placement different treatment. Any questions?
@@ColocasiaCormWhy do you think to have the answers?
This interview was filled with ideas about room acoustics with which I disagree. There was no mention of bass traps. I have never heard the expression "too much diffusion confusion" or whatever it was. I don't think diffusion interferes as much with spatial cues from the recording as does straight room reflection. Personally I have zero interest in hearing the listening room at all. I am currently doing a complete rebuild of my dedicated listening room and I am taking a very very different approach. Total absorption all the way down to 20 hz is the goal of my rebuild.
@@ColocasiaCorm "Different placement different treatment" Yes I have a couple questions. Are you saying move the existing treatment to directly address first order reflections when you move the speaker position or are you saying use different kinds of treatment? Or different amounts of treatment when you move the speaker position?
@@scottwheeler2679 so you’re going floor to ceiling with 10ft deep rockwool? Good luck with that. The less experienced the audiophile the louder they are.
I love that color and those speakers, the listening room is also beautiful but the CH precision electronics don't match the speakers. Better choice Kondo or Pass Labs electronics. The final result is similar to that of a portable radio: bass and spatial definition are missing, micro detail and mid range too. An appreciation, however, for the economic effort
@@marcfly810 Hello Marc,
Some audiophiles disagree but I feel very strongly that one cannot understand the sound of an unfamiliar recording in an unfamiliar system with unfamiliar components in an unfamiliar listening room through a digital UA-cam video.
The music in my video interviews is essentially background music - - like elevator music - - just to have some accompaniment to the video of the listening room and of the components comprising the system. The music should not be listened to as any accurate representation of the in-the-room sound I heard.
Digital video recordings of unfamiliar analog audio systems playing an unfamiliar recording in an unfamiliar room can reveal at most a solitary component change, but cannot be used to compare two unfamiliar systems, and cannot convey generally the in-the-room sound of an unfamiliar system.
@@whatsbestforum I know that audiophile songs very well. They are the same that I am been using to evaluate a system
@@marcfly810 It is not only about a familiar song. And how do you know we are talking about the identical mastering and resolution and format of that recording?
Even with a familiar song you have an unfamiliar system in an unfamiliar room. There is nothing useful or accurate that can be discerned about the sound of the system from the video.
Upper mids come across as shouty.
Hard floors, hmmm
So many people with more money than knowledge seem to be so obsessed with detail. And it just sounds edgy and digital to me. Couple that with the forwardness of horns. Eek.
Nordost is such a fail. Horrible horrible cables.
If the owner reads this, get rid of every single nordost cable, replace them with some shunyata or argento. Then it will be more tube like.
So many audiophiles talk more than listen.
The floors caught my eye too. No getting around those first order reflections straight from the speaker to the floor to the listener.
Shouty...?
- mic capsules
- mic orientation
- camera processing
- UA-cam I/O
- listeners device
- listeners headphone/loudspeaker influence
All these components must be navigated by the signal ... thus considered as legit elements of significance.
Not to mention subjective biases in knowing it's fully horn loaded multi-way playback (save for the Torus sub).
We all know this, yet we all ... myself included, dig UA-cam demos.
We experience sound 𝙙𝙧𝙖𝙢𝙖𝙩𝙞𝙘𝙖𝙡𝙡𝙮 different from the way mic capsules capture acoustic energy.
Most importantly, the one defining characteristic these Avant Gardes possess;
Intensity
... cannot be captured via these recordings/mics.
@@FOH3663 No doubt, a youtube video tells you nothing about sound quality. But "Intensity?" That doesn't seem like a characteristic of a speaker. Source material sure. But the speaker?
@@ColocasiaCorm Yet you seem to talk the most.
Wadax design aesthetic makes me physically ill
Fek NES