Do I really need a anti-static strap/mat/bracelet?
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- Опубліковано 9 чер 2024
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During my electronic communication training a fellow student of mine was working on some own project. I just passed by and looked and asked "what is this" and pointed towards one chip. There was a discharge into one of the legs and it actually was audible. The guy wasnt so happy with me for that and the chip was actually wasted so he had to change it. It was a standard 4022 logic circuit or similar. So you can burn sensitive circuits and I think the really important thing is if you just damage the chip so it might work for a while but crap out with some heat or load.
Usually when I work with stuff nowadays I make sure to touch any ground of the board first.
Very enjoyable watching and learning from you mr sorin
I been repairing electronics for 15years and never ever worn a antistatic bracelet, never had issues!
Thank you Sorin - your English is Excellent as your experience and knowledge.
Thanks for sharing this with us.
I loved this explanation
populated boards are indeed less sensible to ESD, but beware of CMOS ic's and MOSFETs manipulation while doing repairs/soldering. based on experience a bracelet and soldering iron ground connection is highly recommended.
thanks for the lecture 👍🏻
Thank you for this video. It's interesting an insightful. I wonder, if the same considerations apply for larger computer motherboards?
That's best explanation you can give sir thank you
I always trust you, nice informative video. Thanks a lot.
i worked in a electronics factory as a low level employee handling populated PCB and also electronic components for car manufacturers. We always had to wear anti-static clothing and shoes that the company provided. So i guess it is indeed good practice to at least wear a anti-static strap. When i fixed my playstation i made sure to buy a anti-static strap and use it when handling the motherboard since it is better to be safe than sorry.
A populated PCB is not a Faraday's cage.
The phone is not a Faraday's cage.
The failing display is caused by electrostatic radio emission, not an electrostatic shock.
Modern integrated IC sometimes uses ESD protection clamp diodes on IO pins (Or other electrical protection). That can in some cases take 5kV if you are lucky.
When you can feel a shock from your finger you have gone passed 5kV. (High speed IO like FPGA are more sensitive.)
When you are in a lab you do not experience the long-term failures that are caused by ESD.
Most ESD damages are not fatal immediately. There is a degradation that will fail later on.
Do not take my word for it. Talk to people that actually analyze damaged IC and ask them if ESD protection is a real thing.
Well, ESD is a real thing and you are wrong in your assumptions That you do not need protection against it.
If you are running a repair shop you actually gain by not using EDS protection as there is a possibility that you will get the customer back when the phone fails after some time. But as a customer with knowledge of ESD I would never use a repair technician that doesn't use basic ESD protection.
It is true that when you have mounted the IC on the PCB the risk of ESD is less than if you have the IC lose.
But at some time when you remove the component to replace it you will not have it mounted on the PCB.
I agree with you on all points. I've worked in electronics repair, worked in different classes of cleanrooms, worked with probe testing GaAs wafers before they are cut, and currently repair mobile phones. I'm not gonna sit here and say some bs about "I've got a masters degree yada yada". I've had some schooling but I've definitely had experience in it and seen stuff on the microscopic level that really does look like a bolt of lightning blew something up. A lot of these videos I watch are seriously cringe worthy when I see people not using esd straps or a mat. Worse is when I watch people have a go at something with a butter knife or some odd tool. Of the two types of ESD damage, catastrophic or latent, you don't often see catastrophic damage but it does happen. It's the latent you wanna avoid. Well any of it actually. As far as the good for business part, ethically I couldn't do that so I wound up purchasing the "I-didn't-realize-how-expensive-that-stuff-was" esd mats, straps, and tools. But for me it's worth it to have the peace of mind that I'm giving the customer the best possible outcome.
@@the719guy4 ESD is a little bit like explaining that bacteria exist to a doctor 200 years ago. They would say that you do not need to wash your hands before you perform surgery. They would say that they have never seen any bacteria and that no patient has died because of bacteria on his surgeon table.
I hope this technician did some real research instead of anecdotal self-experienced preconceived assumptions.
@@niklaswennerstrand1010 Hopefully. The scary part is that people are using this to "learn". Much like how people are somehow "learning" that the earth is flat and actually believing it. It's extremely toxic to society as a whole when presented in an educational style platform.
I enjoy watching & learning from the reparis, I do understand we are from a different country. I guess it boils down to how one is taugh, I suppose there still some myths floating on the internet that needs busting or rebusting. Luckily I been contracted out by IBM many decades ago, and have seen the damage that a discharge can cause through their research videos, glad The 719 guy can substantiate my training. The critical point is the risk or cause of a delayed failure. The company embraced on that training and follow the IBM footstep that anyone caught not suing the strap is sacked on the spot. I supposed that may have reduced warranty service. Half of the PC workshops in the small town don’t use straps back then. Though be intersting to see the proberbiltiy of it.
I do know if I have dry skin problems on a 40 degrees C dry summer day wearing some silky like clothing I am going to be charged up and I often get zapped touching a door knob.
There was an interesting case where this PC kept on failing after repair/replacement. After a few replacements someone concluded that the computer had a discharge and suspicion was placed on a particular girl that every time she last used it, the PC faulted. Proving it was rather wild. The technician suspected that she was wearing silk underwear which was the cause. They asked her if she was wearing that kind of underwear she was upset by that kind of question & denied it or refuse to answer. Later the tech used electrostatic meter to prove the point that she was charged up. As to how she discharged herself I cannot remember the story clearly.
@@wahyung9669 I don't think the girl was causing the failure by ESD as she did not access the components in the computer as a normal user. The ESD is causing failures when someone accesses the components not when the components are in an enclosure. Designers of products should test their design to withstand external EDS discharges.
You are a Master!
Maybe... One day, I can be same of you. 🙏 Thank You so much
but does the statics kill the replacement components like tiny chip that packed in anti-static plastic? I saw that you also take out new chips or salvage from old board without anti-static strap.
Do you know i believe that you are genius
Thank you Sorin
I never use antistatic,but once i had a bad experience with a weller soldering iron which is antistatic.I touched with its tip a charged capacitor of 10uf/250v in a crt television while with the other hand i was holding the tuner just to position chassis vertically.All the capacitor charge passed through the soldering iron,then from right to my left hand to tuner chassis ground.After that the microprocessor gone dead and the tv never started again.So electric insulation and antistatic is two competely opposite meanings.
I think you should have one of those stuff sir
nice interesting equipment for repairing job
Small tips but useful and interesting!
Link please to video where you use the spark toy to test LCDs.
Maybe put in video description?
Thank you.
Congratulations👍
I have an iphone 8 that doesnt turn on gets hot when charging and then goes cold what should i do first to repair it i purchased a acharging port havent installed it yet if that doesnt work what should be my next step ?
thank you very much
Thank you.
Humidity, clothing and tapestry are important factors for static charge.
Touching the case will negate the effects of possible static damage.
40 Years of repairing without ever using any anti static measures apart from touching the case.
I have had special trainings in ESD , because i had to work in special area’s . they will show you pics made with a very powerfull microscope , before and after it has been touched. You will see very small burn marks. They also tell you it will almost never die instantly , but it will degrade. Meaning the lifetime goes down. As a saying they will say: if you don’t use a esd protection you will alway’s screw a colleague engineer, who has to go on site after maybe 1 or 2 years, and has no clue what is going on with the equipment
yeah ... tough luck .. thats life ..
still not convinced ... never had a need for nor worn static protection ... and if in a few years some component died ... lets call it the butterfly effect ....
because the butterfly fluttered the wings in a garden somewhere ... sowhere somewhen ... a planet died
I have never used an anti-static bracelet when working on computers. Your video explains much. Apparently, anti-static protection is not necessary for anything other than piece-of-junk Acer PCs. I cooked the only ACER PC I have owned by plugging in a USB drive into it. A little spark on the USB port turned it off like a switch -- never to power up again.
Great video! you also need s anti-static mat
Try sparking the board
Perfect video ,i loooooove your accent and your english
Watch the "flux" episode ;)
ok on the outside bar... what about the internal workings. replacing microphone or speakers or battery please
yes: a friend, in Evergem Belgium, 30 years ago, bought when he earned some money, an electronic kit for making circuits like lie detector, radio receiver..., and it had an opamp in there, and when i visited him, he was stuck with his kit, he needed to replace the opamp module, because he zapped the opamp.
What about computer procesor and other parts?
Do it to the motherboard or/and to the memory chip... as well as the charging ports... ;)
There is nothing wrong with your English. You are perfectly understandable. Keep on making your videos. They are very understandable. Ants tactic discharge rarely causes problems with shielded devices or boards. Only the older type boards can cause issues.
20+ years in the pc repair business … never owned one or used one.
me also burned a pcb once becource of a carpet.lol
I’ve worked at a medical electronics for more than 15 years. We have always used anti static wrist straps. If we didn’t wear one while it was a fireable offense. We had IPC-610 training. An esd damage does not have to be scene initially it can hurt the devices later on. Not using also anti static wrist strap further hurts the movement of right to repair.
So you don't need any anti static equipment to work on mobile phones? Because they are protected with the Faraday cage things?
Like others are saying, people aren't referring to a completed device.. People are referring to individual bare components on the board. Completely built devices account for ESD, otherwise we'd have to wear anti-static straps at all times for devices to remain reliable.
Well said my buddy👍🏼👍🏼🇵🇹
I think you need one cause you can kill your IC's and the major problem is the IC's did not die instantaniosly but in maybe 1-2 weeks or even a year in. you can see dents in the metal from the sparks now imagine this dents on a 5nm circut you build fuses inside the IC's ..... otherwise keep the nice content up and the good work
@@legioner9 See for yourself www.electronicdesign.com/power/identifying-eos-and-esd-failures-semiconductor-devices
@@redemptusrenatus5336 Thanks for the link. Look forward to reading it. Unfortunately there seem to be people making comments here who aren't interested in evidence. "I don't use an anti-static mat and have never fried anything therefore they are not necessary". Apparently they are not even prepared to consider evidence that damage can be done to electronic components that is not apparent at the time of repair. I do not understand this mind-set. To quote Bjorn V above:
The damage that ESD (Electro Static Discharge) cause on a motherboard is not always noticed right away. In a microchip there are millions transistors,
if 1 transistor dies by ESD, the chip will still work, but soon another transistor will dies like a chain reaction, because the rest of the transistors must then carry the current and they will got hotter then normal. So the more transistors dies, the hotter the chip gets, and evently the total chip will not work anymore.
I've had some iphone screens die on me. Cant tell if it was because of an antistatic issue or not, they dont speak.
sir what is your native language and i ask another question did the lecons for biginners ended ?
you are the best i have meet in the internet , you videos learned me more i begin to repair laptops so thank you very very much
i never use antistatic braceles.....so,...Pozdrav iz SRBIJE
Oakey.
I have burnt one one card reader due to an ESD discharge.
The most dangerous device that builds up the ES is the office chair, with plastic castors, into an dry office.
The Americans are scared near to death about ESD. They have special floor pavement, special clothes add a device for testing the people before entering the ESD protected area.
Since I am not an american, nor you, the cheapest solution is to touch the metal case of the UPS with the whole hand, not with the fingertip.
I think people are referring to exposed chips. In some cases chips can be damaged. Use your iphone now build up a static charge and touch a chip and let's see what happens.
Get the carpet out of the shop and/or don't drag your feet! Never had a problem with concrete and/or tile... But leather soles on carpet (especially in dry air) can get you in trouble with non-protected components. Another source of static at the bench may be your choice of clothes and chair (think synthetics on velvet).
Most MOS devices have internal protection on their pins. That being said if you have a problem shocking your bench... change the environment... or touch ground before handling components.
they were for programmable eprom chips years ago not to wipe them out
what about if u touch discreate IC chips that have no cage? that static electricity from ur hand will go to the pin then flow inside the IC chip and will blow/fry the IC chip's internal silicon circuits. this is why its always best to use anti static bracelets to reduce of this fact. but if ur repairing deceives which already has IC with "cage" then thats a different story...
hi sir ,
love your videos from country india
From India
same here. over 30 years repaiting sutuf and never use antistatic and no problem.
I also bought into the strap but once I got up and forgot to unhook the clip which came loose and smacked me in the eye -- last time I used it
lol
Yeah, everything has it's place. Anti-static strap or clothing has it's place, unfortunately some try to make a big deal around (some because of paranoia, some because they actually are selling this anti-static "goodies", so their interest is to sell as many as they can).
In a context of a mission critical operation, for sure, you have to make all the possible protections against ESD or when you are moving near or contacting highly flammable substances. Chips and small electrical components can be relatively easy to destroy by ESD, however in an assembled form, as you also stated, most likely you will come in contact with ground or other tracks/pins which aren't so sensible to ESD, so the chances are really low when you are working with consumer grade hardware.
Not mentioning that every time you touch the power supply ground lead or any metal case that is grounded, you will discharge any electrostatic charge you may accumulated till then. Also when you are touching offline electronic boards. Those that aren't connected to the wall, eg. phones or laptops, when they are not plugged into the charger, there is no path for a discharge. When they are connected to the wall, most likely you will touch ground before touching anything else so you will discharge directly to ground without affecting any sensible components.
If you are charged and handle "un-grounded" equipment, some of the charges can migrate to it and ESD can occur when you connect it to a grounded source. This is why connectors are designed that they always contact/connect ground before anything else. Check the USB connector or any charger, they are designed that the ground leads will always touch before anything else.
It's not like someone can't afford an 1$ antistatic wrist strap.
I've attempted cpu reballs on the iPhone 7 like the board you had, the cpu itself is very sensitive to electrical discharges, but of course unless one gets that far in repairs, i dont think either that a bracelet is needed.
I zapped my NES (Nintendo) motherboard while walking up carpeted stairs. Still works great. Must have got lucky I guess.
Try your toy with a pc memory module...
I would like to wear the bracelet so I wouldnt fell so annoyed the whole trough the many electric discharges I receive the whole because the store where I work haves carpet and dry air the whole day XD
Short answer yes, you can burn a PC processor just by unwrapping the plastic protector. If it won't kill it will degradade the internal chip tracks. If you ever watched a chip internals that was burnt by electrostatic discharge on an electron microscope you will think twice not using bracelet.
@@legioner9
Why not?
static shocks are around 0.0000062 amps in current. i don't think this can do any harm to a microchips, maybe i m wrong?
Yes you are wrong. The current is created when you place a voltage over a conductor with a resistance and the way you calculate the current is by taking the voltage divided by the resistance. If you take a very high voltage and divide that with a very low resistance you will get a very high current. It is called Ohms law. But the short time the current is acting on the conductor may save the conductor to not melting. Depending on the thickness of the conductor. But it is not only the current that will damage a nanometer-scaled conductor it is also Columbs law acting between conductors that can create mechanical forces that creates mechanical cracks. To get your 0.0000062 amps you would need a very high resistance component to measure that on. FET transistors may have a very high input resistance but they do not support voltages above max voltages specified for the part. ANd ESD voltages can easaly get above 20kV and more.
.
Not all circuitry is esd sensitive.
Most germanium based components are sensitive
Also try zapping an IC and see if its still working
10kv volts across a chip and it will make it fail
Sir, I think you're wrong. There is no protection... it's just luck because it happens not often and there are no closed circuits if you are charged. The true problem isn't the case (otherwise everyone should need a anti-static strp while using the phone), the true problem are are such things like diodes etc. wich are getting damages when they got to much voltage.
But you're right, it isn't that necessary to use one... had the same experience like you.
while all of what you say is true , you are not telling the whole story, why don't you use your toy on processor or memory, or data lines, let's see what happens :)
but the biggest problems are ESD LATENT damages,
(people many times refer to them as a seconds fault - sorry had to use your phrase :))
hope nobody will google this or you will have to get a esd protection :)
thank you Sorin for all the knowledge
I trust you Nice toy to clear the issues
Thanks for your information.. I never thought about the phone that way but now that you have mentioned it it has to be built that way because users never wear anti static bracelets.. It was very interesting that they use faraday's shielding.. once again good plan there.. simple is best.. I have read the comments and it look like to me they didn't listen very well because all of them are talking about something completely different then you were well thanks again for the share.. carry on!
lol it's obvious that you like that electrostatic speaker :-D
I don't bother much about static, if i think it may be a fragile chip i just touch earth once, it is often the metal eliment of my smoldering iron :-D.
For people that are bothered, wear cotton clothes and no plastic sole shoes.
Most ESD damage doesn’t “kill” electronics immediately. But it does cause damage that will cause failure or some problem later (called latent damage).
Google “ESD damage microscope OR microscopy” and you will see photographs of the damage done by ESD.
Sorin you are an educator. You have responsibility to understand fully the impact of your recommendations. Research latent ESD damage photographs. Also, apply your spark toy to a laptop motherboard while you have it open on your bench. That is an actual proper test.
Enjoy your repairs. Very educational.
Cheers.
Nice iPhone 8 Let's Burn it...
Actually it makes me confused do we really need to wear anti static while doing works in a motherboard but most of tech they dont really care about the anti static strap thing or they dont actually used it..so i think its useless.. Maybe its up to your belief if you used it..and this video makes sense thanks sir
I've been pulling PCs, servers apart for over 25 years.
Never worried about anti-static, never fried anything.
The people selling those wrist straps must be laughing like drains.
if you were an electric eel you could damage the board.
I have built around 200 gaming desktops, done repairs on desktops and laptops, and I've NEVER used an anti static band. Never had a board damaged by ESD, and never had my work come back to me. "ESD causes damage over time and will make your electronics fail in the future", great, so any time a piece of hardware fails you can conveniently blame ESD damage. With modern hardware and PCB designs, ESD is a placebo.
Just touch something metal before working with electronics... No need for bracelet...
Hello my friend . I need help . Can u help me?plz
before watching, thats boulshit all anti-static good for impression
I have dissasembled/repaired a lot of devices as a hobby and if anything goes wrong it has never been electrostatic electricity- never- It is always dumbass me creating a shortcircuit with a scredriver or conecting the wrong the polarity etc
the anti-static bracelet contains a small metal, just touch a screwdriver for example or a metal piece from time to time especially when I want to work on a motherboard, that's enough. I've always done like that.
You really do scare the shit out of me, running it round the case is a waste of time..do that on the Components and your going to junk them.
@@legioner9 he needs to understand some fundamentals of the component structure. Running that silly spark on the case is a waste of time its not going through any components at all. A lot of components these days are less susceptible to static discharge but its still a big issue. He is giving wrong advice and a Faraday cage is directly connected to earth.. He does not mention the influence of carpet on static. If static was not an issue nobody would ever talk about it. I have never zapped anything but I take basic protection even just touching a radiator discharges static he needs to be careful if somebody listens to him they could easily brick a lot of things
@@anenglishmaninbrazil3212 quote "a Faraday cage is directly connected to earth.." this is wrong im afraid. a car is a faraday cage and has no connection to earth.
@@TheOneDeviantNature If a car was a Faraday Cage your mobile phone would not work. A Faraday cage is exactly that a Cage and depending on what you are trying to achieve would depend on the grid size of the cage you are totally surrounded by a metal grid door sealing floor the whole lot. A car is not even close to being a Faraday Cage .. It has windows.. They would have to be covered in a grid mesh to get close
.
@@anenglishmaninbrazil3212 A car acts as a Faraday Cage as do planes and any other thing that is surrounded by mostly metal its basic science
IDEALLY I WOULD STRONGLY RECOMMEND TO HAVE A STATIC MAT, BAND, ETC. ELECTRONIC EQUIPMENTS CAN FAIL, IT'S A MATTER OF IF? AND WHEN?. I LOST A HDD AFTER COMING OUT OF MY VEHICLE BACK INTO WORKSHOP AND ACCIDENTALLY TOUCHED THE HDD AND SPARK (STATIC) KILL THE HDD. YOU ARE DEALING WITH SENSITIVE ELECTRONICS NOT A LARGE INDUSTRIAL EQUIPMENTS. FROM EXPERIENCE BEST TO BE SAFE THEN SORRY.
Bad advice.
pls enlighten us ... there are scores of people on this board ...in the comments stating having 10-20-30 me too more than 20 yrs in the industry ... never have worn .. nor have destroyed a component ...