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Should VR Use Aim Assist
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- Опубліковано 18 сер 2024
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0:00 Why I wrote this video
1:08 Why devs may have created aim assist & bullet magnetism
2:24 Should these features apply to VR?
5:55 VR shooters' unique solutions
9:04 How aim assist and bullet magnetism 'generally' work
10:58 How Contractors made me suspicious
12:13 Player behaviour/ability in VR should not be the same as K&M
14:33 wot i fink
16:55 Conclusion
17:27 What VR gameplay COULD look like without flatscreen design trends
I'm not sure if this is what's actually going on, but in SteamVR you can artificially adjust the scale of the world in the per-application video settings to your liking. A scale of 125% would make everything 125% the size of what it was and you subsequently 80% smaller. A scale of 80% would make everything 80% smaller and you a 7 foot tall gorilla. Although it's mainly made so that people who are slightly too short or too tall can enjoy VR at an intended height, the slider can go all the way down to 10% or up to 1000%.
I'm bringing this up is because the reason why actual short people don't have much of an advantage in RL ranged combat is because they're more quickly fatigued by the equipment burden, and their aim and performance will suffer from it. An average-sized person shrinking themselves down in VR on the other hand, does not have this issue. So not only do they have the advantage of having a smaller hitbox, not only is their head height perpetually at lower level than expected, but since they perceive everything to be larger, it'd be lot easier to hit shots because every target is bigger than it should be. It'd be like playing on 4:3 vs 16:9, as a CS player might put it.
The only true disadvantage from this is that your gun handling and manipulation will be off, but I wouldn't be surprised if with enough hours and training, the difference can be almost completely negated, since everything is weightless. It'll only get problematic if you set a world size of something like 200%, where your weapons are quite literally twice the size they would be in real life and you literally can't reach the front end of it. Still, you may be able to stick to only using pistols and other short weapons to compensate for it.
Interestingly, the opposite is true for VR melee games. Making yourself larger in games that don't compensate for player height makes said game hilariously trivial as you have the arm reach of a 7 foot tall gorilla without increased inertia associated with being one, and can still swing as fast as a regular-sized person.
I can't comment further on this since I don't frequent multiplayer shooters often because I'm a wuss who doesn't like his ass kicked, so I don't know if most games have a restriction on this or not. But even if they have limits on how tiny the playermodel is allowed to be, I don't think they can do anything about someone still going smaller than that in their own VR space and making themselves as tiny as practically possible, since the setting is on SteamVR's end.
I do have contractors downloaded though, so I guess I can go check it right now after writing this comment. EDIT: Although contractors has a minimum height of 5.1ft during calibration, you can still set your world scaling to anything you want, and offset your height so that you're just high enough that the game doesn't consider you to be crouching. You can truly have the smallest hitbox possible while running at full speed AND making every other player 50% larger and easier to hit.
This is really interesting to read about and something I was aware could be done but it never occurred to me how much it may be potentially abused, and had NO idea it would also enlarge everyone else to boot...that's a huge exploit!
I think it's well known that Contractors at least has this kind of abuse to shrink your character which all of the 'pro' players use, but I thought it was done via the game only and would leave others unaffected...
Thanks so much for taking the time to experiment and write this up chrystales, it deserves a pin. I hope other devs catch wind of this.
Yes, shrinking yourself in SteamVR will make everything look bigger, but everything will also seem further away from you. What actually matters with respect to how easy it is to hit anything, is the target's size in your field of view (e.g. measured in square degrees; shape also matters ofc). That, however, is *not* scaled up or down when varying VR world scale (assuming the same in-game distance to the target). Actually, in terms of visuals, the only thing changing is the in-game distance between the two "cameras" creating the images for your eyes. The image that one eye sees barely changes (again, not accounting for change in height), but the stereoscopic perception is widely different due to the brain being used to a fixed real-life interpupillary distance.
So the only advantage I can think of when shrinking oneself in shooters is the smaller hitbox.
@@teratesla Yeah, I figured that too. This is just a top-of-the-head comment that I didn't expect to get pinned and I made some follow-up comments on the following livestream of him testing out the hypothesis.
But there's still clearly a felt advantage when people use it. I don't think it's purely placeabo.
I think a better way to describe it is that a higher world scale is the equivalent of lowering your mouse sensitivity. You have more room for error in the coordination of your arms when aiming at something. Trying playing in 80% or even 50% world scale. It's a lot harder than 100% since your hands will feel shakier than normal, even though it's the same fov.
It's more to do with the 3d space directly around you. Any misalignment of your gun with your eye is amplified in a bigger world, and reduced in a smaller world. If say, your sight picture is off by 1 degree and 2mm, then a 50% world scale will make that 2 degrees and 4mm of error and a 200% scale will make that 0.5 degree and 1mm of error. Essentially, having a higher scale makes the experience closer to a flat screen monitor, allowing you to focus more on where the gun is pointing, instead of how it's pointing.
@@chrystales6169 Agree, except with your last example: the angular imprecision should stay the same (same reasoning as with the FOV), at least for one-handed weapons. I guess you can get a somewhat smaller angle error with two-handed weapons due to the two "shaking suspensions" (your hands) being further apart, and assuming the real-life shaking to be unchanged.
Just had another idea: Another advantage when shrinking yourself could be more effectively utilising both of your eyes when aiming down sights. In the extreme case of shrinking to zero, both cameras are at the same position and see the same picture, similarly to 2D gaming (maybe that's what you already had in mind?) and both eyes look down the sights of the same gun.
Conversely, being sized up enormously you can only ever use one eye to look down the sights of that tiny gun, which you also can't get sufficiently close to your face due to the controller colliding with the hmd.
Heres a bit of insight (from someone who has ~3000 hours across many of the popular VR shooters)
Contractors has not implemented side to side inertia, meaning that you can "wiggle" by simply moving left and right on the thumbstick and instantly change direction. You can combine this by also moving your head side to side irl (if you have head locomotion on), which is commonly known as "playspacing". The two movements (thumbstick and head movement) add up and allow you to move at speeds greater than intended. Many VR games have worked to try and solve this issue, Pavlov and more recently Breachers have solved the issue of breaking movement speed caps. This issue is still common in Onward, Vail, and Contractors. Add networking into the mix and you get some janky results.
When it comes to one handed accuracy, many VR games still allow you to be accurate while one handing weapons. The only game where most weapons have a bunch of recoil to where 1 handing isnt viable is Pavlov. That is because most VR games only have vertical recoil and barely have horizontal recoil, with the latter being hard to control.
Last, I do think at least with the sniper rifles in Contractors, aim assist was added. The only other game to have full on aim assist is Firewall Ultra.
My thoughts is that I agree with motion smoothing and virtual stock settings, as these both help to eliminate any jank. However I do not agree with adding full on aim assist to VR shooters, especially because if motions do not match up with what you are doing irl, then people will cite tracking issues/jank and be less inclined to continue with the medium. That and if VR is to improve, it needs to keep innovating, not copying from Flatscreen.
Hi, thanks for taking your time and energy to write this up and share the wisdom, especially appreciate your formatting and grammar!
I’m aware of the lacking inertia in Contractors, it’s something I’ve bemoaned publicly before. There is a liiiiiiittle bit, but as you said, it is massively exploitable. That and the seated mode exploit + light armour making one a tiny target zipping around at light speed. I’m not saying there isn’t room for that kind of gameplay in VR, but we’ve been saturated with that in flatscreen for many many years already, but yet still nothing that truly encourages proper ‘human’ use of motion controls to escape from it.
If you haven’t already, please consider listening to my ‘Slow Us Down’ video, it may resonate with you also or provide something to think about.
Thanks again for the effort writing up the wisdom and take care.
I was sold on VR shooters after a moment in a pavlov game where me and an enemy were hiding on opposite sides of a box and I reached over with just my gun and started blind firing on the other side and got the kill it was like neurons opened in my brain for the first time
Please see my ‘Slow Us Down’ video if you haven’t already, it argues for more of that and the psychology around what would make us play more that way in VR. :-)
@@MrVRVoice I'll check that out for sure thanks man
It's such a shame that onward turned into a sellout, kindergarden. Laying on your own floor with a physical stock and pulling off a long range shot without any other help is SOO satisfying in such a tactical game
that sounds fun if i wasnt poor
I agree 100%, traditional aim assists should stay out of VR. This not only promotes laziness in players & developers, but it will also cheapen the VR experience as a whole. What makes VR great is hand interactions. If the game controlled this for you, there is no point in VR then. You may as well be playing a flat-screen game. It is interesting what you show with Contractors. There was something about that game that did not feel right and voicing your opinion if this game actually uses some sort of aim assist makes me even more suspicious. Im not much of a fan of that game, I feel the guns lack that 'oomph' and when playing against bots, the enemies feel bullet spongy.
With Contractors specifically, it's not aim assist. They tried that in a beta release, and people backlashed against it.
Instead however, it's two other things: One, hitboxes are a bit disjointed, making it a little lenient on aiming precisely on target.
Two, shots are hitscan and not travelling through space in realtime, no gravity pulling down the bullets either. Wherever you point with the perfectly zeroed in sight or scope, it will hit there the instant you pull the trigger. That makes adjusting for different distances and movements not needed.
A strange design choice in my opinion, since it's 100% possible to go with bullet projectile travel, as shown by the devs of the Star Wars Battlefront mod in Contractors. Even the latest Call of Duty, the game that this gets compared to, has some form of projectile travel, measured by the velocity stat ingame. I even believe that all other VR shooters use projectile travel. Pavlov surely does.
If it's a power trip shooter I don't care. If it's a normal shooter... You literally can learn how to point fire way easier in VR than traditional shooters
Depends on the context.
I for one think that both melee (like saints and sinners) and throwing aim assist (like dungeons of eternity) should be standard.
Shooting a gun, not so much so
I find the aim assist in melee is more due to a need for handling the inherent inaccuracy of the weapons used.
Since they are intended to have weight and therefore delay, there's a specific disconnect between what your hands can do and what your game characters hands do.
This follows the philosophy of aim assist as a way to get around technical limitations.
@@spinosauruskin yes, and its very apparent how janky it feels when games do not utilize melee and throwing aim assist.
Very informative and well put.
As a irl gun enthusiast who loves going to the range, no, I dont want aim assist. I want the satisfaction of knowing my accuracy means something and having it pay off.
In single player modes as part of accessibility options yes, absolutely !
I understand why that might seem ok in isolation, and toyed with mentioning this point in the script, but in the end I settled on it still being long-term detriment in single player, maybe worse than multiplayer actually.
My rationale is the reinforcement of false ability and bad comfortable play habits which is limiting to the player’s natural ability growth with the input. Habits which may not translate to other titles that do not offer assists, demoralising that player from taking on the challenge because they’re suddenly not as good as they thought they were, or worse, excluding them entirely.
In the case of single player, one could argue that devs can be more creative and experimental knowing it will not mess with multiplayer balance. Innovation and experimentation require risk, and risk typically involves getting out of one’s comfort zone and being forced to tackle it, and we like to do that because we tend to get results and rewards for that risk, e.g. ability improvement.
That process will be slowed to a crawl or never allowed happen if we keep worrying about coddling users and having no faith in their ability to face a new trial and adapt/learn to get better. And the rationale for hand-holding players really doesn’t have much of a leg to stand on any more with the harmonious nature of motion input with our bodies, as it would be akin to suggesting: “We don’t trust you know how to coordinate basic arm movements with accuracy or judge depth properly. Here, we’ll do the bulk of the task for you.”
Can you understand how this mindset as a primary will diminish or halt the inception of bold interesting innovations and experimentations? Things which VR software could really use at the moment.
Accessibility in features cannot be a primary concern for VR at the moment, anything that is experimental and brimming with unrealised potential first and foremost needs unfettered breathing space to explore itself fully and find the known limits of what it can do. Once things are established and more set, then accessibility can become a larger focus and may actually lead to additional innovations on top which could birth more interesting innovations for us all to play with. But VR must be allowed to ‘go wild’ first for that cycle to take place.
@@MrVRVoice "Accessibility in features cannot be a primary concern for VR at the moment, anything that is experimental and brimming with unrealised potential first and foremost needs unfettered breathing space to explore itself fully and find the known limits of what it can do." so what you're saying is vr is and will be a waste of time for decades to come?
I think stabilisation like a button for simulating holding breath (Like ItR implemented it) is fine. Smoothing is fine too, I don't like using it.. but that's my personal preference (smoothing to me feels like added lag on the input, not a fan, but it also doesn't give an unfair advantage over people choosing NOT to use it.).. But aim-assist and bullet magnetism have no place in serious VR shooters.. Arcade shooters are there own thing... If there is something in the lore explaining it (for instance if there would be a Mech combat game, and the Mech has an aiming assisting computer as a module in game [that maybe could be damaged in battle and fail]. Aim-assist explained!).. it's fine.. But Mil-Sim and competitive shooters.. NOOOO.
Virtual stock should only be snapping to shoulder... if you move the gun close towards your shoulder it should snap into place.. Otherwise the physics should work like in RL It shouldn't do more then actually locking the stock to your shoulder. IRL you would have the physical stabilisation of the stock against your shoulder too (that's what it's there for)... I like the GoT implementation, and the ItR implementation, and there's some more games that get it right...
I can't remember which game it was.. but double clicking thumbstick would lock Virtual stock in.. I hate that...
Also I'm pleasantly surprise by how much more nuanced this story was, compared to what I was expecting.. But I guess we're pretty much on the same page on this subject...
I'm still going to take the liberty to disagree with you on other stuff...🤔😂😇
bullet magnetism is great for single player games if its optional, it multiplayer it shouldn't exist
love it as always brother well done ^^
The challenge of accurately shooting a VR weapon is one of the unique selling points for VR shooters. Why buy the 'VR version' of a game if these unique mechanics are going to be watered down so heavily?
I'd even like to see virtual stock replaced with customizable contextual motion smoothing as Vstock is already assisting your aim by removing possible mistakes. Grip twist throwing off your aim is a common mistake in real life. The problem with turning it off currently is that even if you're stable enough for ironsights you may still be too shaky for magnified optics.
That said Aim Assist might have a place in precise throwing or other non-shooting VR interactions. As much as I love throwing grenades in VR games there's no consistency across multiple games, the weight of objects and force you can impart from a regular throw varies wildly. I've played at least one VR game with subtle throwing weapon assist but can't recall what it was off the top of my head, all I remember is that it didn't bother me as much as I thought it would.
Half Life 2 VR Mod has by far the best implementation of throwing I’ve ever experienced in VR to date, ironically.
I don't think vr needs it bc we aim with our hands eyes and arms, screen games don't it's screen based
13:35 put your playback speed to .25 lol something is definitely going on there
Player is abusing a strafe seated mode exploit to make him the smallest and fastest target possible. And it looks like maybe my recoil is bouncing toward him, hmmm…
Please don't, leave it alone, it's the only process that make you feel good in VR aiming yourself, we don't need aim assist we just need way more AAA titles and full campaigns
13:43 the main reason Valve Index controllers are superior. XD
So immersive. (I despise seeing such gamey strafe spam in VR games, I gave my finger gladly)
I think it has to do with the sort of game the game is trying to be. it definitely has the possibility of being broken and unfun, but that's more a problem with its implementation than the concept itself. I think I would need to experience different levels of both aim assist and bullet magnetism in vr to be able to form a full opinion on if I like it or not.
as for your suspicions about contractors theres a possibility that vr hacks have been developed for that game. scary
@Mr VR Voice The sizes of the hit boxes and hurt box of the bullets and characters are some thing to consider as well
I think bullet magnetism has space in intentional fantasy/scifi homing weapons but that's it.
I found two-handed weapons very awkward to use with my physical stock in Crossfire: Sierra Squad without their version of a v-stock, which makes the weapon align entirely with the primary hand, with the off-hand affecting only recoil. It works very well with my setup.
I mostly think that they shouldn't because they both encourage low-skill aggressive play style, which is only fun for the person using it, but if you do enable it, i feel like giving you options for enabling/disabling them in custom lobbies if you wish, you could also give it to players who struggle with said aiming skills, but this can also be put in as different weapons/chacters, like pyro in tf2 or the smg in compound.
I'm giving you an open invitation to join ne sometime to properly test any title that you think may have aim assist.
Public Multiplayer matches are a bit hectic, but testing it in a 1v1 scenario and teating in isolation would allow for directly determining whether it is in use or not.
And as someone who avoids V-Stock, it'd be interesting to see how well I do against someone using it in a test.
Sure, we’ll set that up in the near future and see what we can do. What’s your Steam name or friend code?
@@MrVRVoice Baldrickk - 37206128
i think contractors has an option to stabilize scopes, which i think is pretty neat cause sheesh man, when you don't have an actual stock against your shoulder, and your hands basically are weightless, that aim is gonna get shaky as hell.
the only virtual stock i like is from h3vr
By far the best one. I describe it more as a virtual shoulder.
aside from learning curves I think it depends on what the point of the game is. Are you trying to be somewhat realistic or have a somewhat slower gameplay style? Then no aim assist should probably be used. If you are going for quick fast gameplay then a little aim assist should probably be used with maybe some balancing so the time to kill isn't too quick. Are you being expected to shoot at enemies that aren't just in front of you but also at the sides and behind with a degree of accuracy? Maybe have some amount of aim assist for those times at least.
What the right call will be determined by what fits the intended game experience
What game are you playing? 4:31 I’m new to Vr
nahh bro, I would prefer to be as more realistic as it can
I think it's qn easy prediction that with lack of controller support on the apple vision pro someone will have the "bright" to make a shooter game where you instantly aim with eye tracking and pinch your fingers to fire 🤦♂️
Ugh, sounds awful.
idk why, but the left handed gameplay is really getting to me. i just keep wanting to to reach out and switch the hands with my vr controllers lol
You can endure, I believe in you ✊🏻
Aim assist should not be in any vr game in my opinion. The satisfaction of finally hitting a target, and the dissatisfaction of missing one are both viable parts of "realism" and "immersion" in vr games. Especially vr games.
emersion... this person knows a lot about video games, obviously.
@@dangdudedan8756 nitpick
@@TijnvanGimst could say the same for you.
@@dangdudedan8756 hahaha. No.
@dangdudedan8756 I’ve spied your replies around the comments and it seems this topic has rubbed you the wrong way or you feel threatened in some manner. More than happy to hear opposing opinions or disagreement but you don’t bother to actually explain and contextualise your issue.
All you’re doing right now is inane antagonising to other users and if that keeps up I’ll just hide your comments from the channel.
So, use this chance to EXPLAIN yourself please so we can better understand your perspective.
tip to using a stock: use your forearm to hold your gun. your hand will probably get tired but oh well
That happened to me in contractors too but i thought it was because of my ping
The S sound in this video is a bit ear piercing. Maybe try a de-esser or eq
I did use a de-esser during the editing. Not good enough perhaps. Any suggestions on plugins for Audacity?
@@MrVRVoice i find the Era de-esser a nice one. But it technically just dips a frequency on an EQ. Something you can also do yourself using an EQ haha. But if you want a good De-Esser with extra features ERA bundle is a good one.
Will look into it, thanks very much 🙏🏻@@TijnvanGimst
I'm so sorry but you're completely wrong when it comes to contractors having aim assist. I played the game for over 100 hours now and played with really good people and I myself find myself on top of the leaderboard at times and I could say definitively that there is no aim assist. There's just really, really sweaty players.
Nothing to be sorry for. I did a livestream testing this soon after ( ua-cam.com/users/liveV6VCDIxbg0I ) and the conclusion I came to thus far is that it doesn’t have AA or BM under the conditions tested. Though I can’t speak for whether there are any shenanigans going on with the size of bullet hurtboxes and target hitboxes 🤷🏻♂️ But another conclusion I’ve come to about Contractors is that it’s a highly abusable game with world scale manipulation and player height scaling to exploit for what I consider a sizeable advantage, and it’s no coincidence that I see a lot of the tournament players in public lobbies (the ones with the graffti-like logos as their profile picture) very often being pint-sized targets zipping around without any regard for gravity.
Oh, and also that the virtual stock can confer a massive advantage versus not using it with how much it stabilises you, which I already highlighted in the video. That isn’t to say a player can’t get very good when not using it, as with any practised input, but it’s pretty damn powerful.
I just played Contractors Showdown 1 hour ago. It definitly got aim assist. Wouldt surprise me if their original game got it also.
git gud scrub
everyone seems to have forgotten that video games have an options menu where you can enable and disable optional features, typically including aim assist. or maybe they have no self restraint.
For online multiplayer these should have the same value for all players, imo. So players could select a server with or without aim assist.
👏@@golongself
@@SOULDEZIGNER Still lurking in the shadows I see :D
😂🤣🥰@@MrVRVoice
I thought about getting Contractors but someone said it’s COD VR and I instantly knew it was a no
hell. no. aim with ur hands cmon what are u tremor boy?
yes i have tremors why does that mean im not allowed to experience vr games?
@@dangdudedan8756sure, for story/singleplayer games go all ahead, but once you compete in online gaming you're not given any assistance.
Hell no
No.