Jumper’s Knee: Keith Baar Case Study (Fix Patellar Tendon Pain)
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- Опубліковано 27 сер 2024
- From Podcast #24 with Keith Baar on Healing Tendons. Link here: jackedathlete....
A discus thrower with bilateral patellar tendinopathy was able to solve the issue with 7-weeks of 5-days per week heavy isometric leg extensions paired with Baar’s nutrition protocol.
Concepts from Baar and other tendon researchers can be found in my products:
The Scientific Framework behind Jumper's Knee: jackedathlete....
The best Patellar Tendon Training Program in existence: jackedathlete....
![How To Fix Patellar Tendonitis / Tendinosis [Jumper’s Knee Rehab Exercises]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/-dJIxiZcy_8/mqdefault.jpg)
This is absolute facts. I have been doing this on a leg curl machine thats set up exactly like leg extension. I do single leg overcoming isometric holds 30 sec each leg and about 4-5 times. Within a week, my pain level has gone down a lotttt. I have removed any basketball, high intensity jumping or explosive squatting. Everything slow but heavy plus overcoming isometric and its great. Not taking any collagen either
Awesome. Glad it’s helped, brother
@@jake_tuura how many sets of this do you recommend per session ?
@@joshuawalston9044 3-5
@@jake_tuura thank u
Did you end up fixing?
this story really stood out when i listened to the podcast the 1st time! i got relief after about 10 workouts doing this
Let’s goooooo
Did doing the workout cause you pain? I've been dealing with this injury for over a year and I want to give it a shot. I guess I'm asking if the act of doing this workout cause pain at first and got better over time? I feel like doing this would hurt at first
A little pain during ISO’s is fine
Thank you so much. Ifeel like this injury has taken all from me, everyday I wait to wake up from this nightmare, but it never happens. I lost my mobility almost completely, both knees are affected. Doctors have failed me. I will give this a try.
Update?
Wow this is a fascinating case study so glad I follow your channel man...My tendons look the exact same as the prior imaging this athlete had received, I will definitely be doing this later at the gym! Thank you for everything man you are the goat
Thank you
Hey just wondering how this is working out for you? Have you made a full recovery?
It's worked?
@@jeffersonesteves4759 probably not a permanent fix but spanish squats, iso leg lifts in general have extended my athletic window immensely. The stronger together, and independantly, your legs can work the better youll perform and feel in my experience
Thank you so much for all the effort you put into all of these videos! I've been struggling for over 1.5 years with this pain and am going to give this a try. It has been like trying to find my way out of a long dark cave with this condition - thank you for showing there's light at the end of the tunnel!
Did it work for u?
how is your pain now?
Dang man, do you think anyone could recover that fast if we just stop lifting and do heavy ISOs 5 days a week for 2 months? Or was this guy just blessed lol
Many variables. Way too difficult to say. This athlete was also bilateral, which is less common. And a non jumping athlete, which is also not common. Keep in mind they don’t have jumping in their sport so that makes progressing back into sport easier (although they may have been jumping in their training, idk for sure)
Did you get your knee fixed? Curious to hear if you are good now
I would be utterly terrified to try something like this with my tendon issues! Contracting the muscle with maximum force on a damaged tendon just seems crazy. I find this case study very fascinating none the less, especially since his case was documented with ultrasound before and after.
Watch the rest of my videos. You’re not getting it. Heavy isometric loading is not hard on the tendon. It will decrease pain and make the tendon healthier over time in mostly all cases.
@@jake_tuura I do understand that heavy loading stimulates collagen synthesis although I have thought that eccentrics are what most people use. I would still be terrified to attempt flexing my muscle as hard as possible even if its just an isometric exercise. I would probably get hurt but I do seem to have a very high susceptibility to tendinosis and tendon damage.
@@mikeekim1101 isolated eccentrics are not that useful. High load for a tendon requires high rate of loading. There is basically no rate of loading with a heavy isometric so the tendon relaxes over time. You need a heavy load to cause changes in a tendon. They are more stiff than muscle and won’t easily change unless you go heavy. In your case, maybe buildup the intensities slowly so you can feel more confident before pushing it
@@jake_tuura I will have to give it a try and see how it goes. Have you had other tendinopathies besides patellar? What do you think about some of the biologics like stem cells or amniotic tissue derivatives ?
@@mikeekim1101 Achilles as a kid but that went away. Elbow from powerlifting but that went away when I stopped competing.
Hey! I am glad I found you! I have tendinitis in my left knee (upper region) some days it hurts really bad, I even cannot squat to parallel. According to Keith Baar, we should drink 15 grams of collagen with vitamin C before these sessions and they should not last more than 10 minutes. After 10 min you end your session and only after 6 hours you can perform your “normal” strength training. Do you think it is necessary? Or can we should do ISO holds before or after normal strength training and improve in that way? Or should these sessions be separated? Thank you very much! 😇🙏
They can last more than 10 minutes. Do 3-5 sets of 30-45 second holds. Might take 10-20 minutes depending on how much you’re resting… then, you can do another session 6 hours later, but it’s not a huge deal. You could do one 4 hours later if you wanted. Or do the normal session right after if you can’t do two a days.
@@jake_tuura thank you very much! 🙏
@@jake_tuura So workouts can exceed 10 minutes due to breaks between sets but overall we should keep the tension/load around 10 mins ?
@@bobdmt4320 I wouldn’t even focus on that. I would do 3-5 sets of 30-45 second holds with heavy weight. Rest about 2 minutes between sets.
Thanks for doing these podcasts!
I just found it on accident. I have already been taking a Jill Cook approach to treatment inadvertently by doing incremental progression and slow heavy resistance.
I am curious did you personally attempt this as well and did you have any success?
I use both methods. 4 stage process laid out by Jill Cook and others... and the Keith Baar approach at the same time because you can always do heavy isometrics. Both methods work, it seems best to use both.
@@jake_tuura Awesome thanks for the quick response. Just listened to the next podcast with Jason and he tied it all together.
Just have to program it in a way that makes sense for the individual athlete. I have been trying the collagen as well. Overall I’m seeing lots of improvement and will start experimenting with the heavy isometrics.
I saw a video about how Michael Jordan had possible tendinopathy as well and how much mindset plays into all of this. I think you would find it interesting if you haven’t already seen it.
Can I still do max isometrics regularly whilst continuing my sport? If so how many times a week is best? If I’m doing sports 3-4 days a week. Also , can I do shockwave therapy once a week at the same time period of doing these isometrics to break up calcific tendinitis ? The calcium deposit in my knee is thick so doesn’t let me extend my knee fully even if there is no pain. Or will max isometrics break them up itself?
I can’t give an answer to any of those questions. There is no one size fits all approach. Educate yourself as much as possible so you can make your own choices.
@@jake_tuura very true , thanks!
What if the tendon is partially torn, meaning it has some fibers de-attached? Do we still want to put stress with isometrics throughout the injured area or is there danger of losing more fibers?
Pain destroyed my life
Im happy after watching this video
So can i do it daily ?
Yes, read this: jackedathlete.com/3-concepts-for-juicy-tendons/
@@jake_tuura thank you so much brother
So exited for the 60 °
Twice a day
Daily 🫀
@@hamdidjabo167 yup
@@jake_tuurait says they couldn’t charge my card
Wait so a question. I saw that earlier today you posted a video saying that the other position where your leg is extended is better for patellar and the one shown in the video (flexed position) is better for quads. So what do you think is the best position to hold it in for patellar tendonapathy flexed or extended.... also very interesting to see that pathology heals, I’m sure Jill Cook has her eyebrows raised!
60 degrees for patellar. 90 degrees or deeper for quad.
Check out this study: pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18768702/
They showed patellar stress increased from 0 to 60 degrees of knee flexion. 0 being the lowest, 60 being the highest... I am piecing things together from other research to say, if you get deeper than 60 degrees, the stress will be shared more with the quad tendon.
Can I start doing these 7 months of from acl surgery but suffering from tenondonitis or should I wait until after 9 months to a year
@@narutofan2120 you don’t need to wait that long. Start lower intensity and progress slowly
I'm going to try this for about 5 days a week 3-4 sets 30seconds , ill be back for results in a week or 2
How's the results?
@@evilcat8443 honestly about 2 weeks now and about the same maybe slightly better it’s hardly noticeable, the most progress was the first 3 days but the pain level stayed the same after that imo . I’m stopping today bc I went back to heavy squats slow resistance up and down bc my gym is closed today and tendon hurts even more imo then before I started the iso holds , idk if I loaded too much too fast or what
@@jonnibrah2785 your tendons still hurt because you're doing squats and you shouldn't be squatting. You're in phase 1 of tendon rehab. You should only be doing isometrics. Phase 2: Isotonics only start when your morning bodyweight squat to assess pain reaches 2/10 on the pain scale.
Was the patella pain chronic?
so we dont even need a leg press. we just need to push against anything with the tops of our feet as hard as we can. a 7 week investment on my 8.5 year bi-lateral patella tendon injury seems too good to be true, but i will give this a shot. (i heard a similar case to the discus athlete took 18 months, or is this the same guy?)
ive been doing vitamin C + gelatin, eccentric slant board squats for 5 months and have only seen minimal results: most adhesions/lumps smoothed out, but i can feel some rough spots still, and the pain went from a 4 to 0.5 most days.
You could probably make that set-up work… I think the 18 month thing was with a pro basketball player, I forget the exact study off the top of my head.
Idk if you should be worried about the lumps. Haven’t heard of cases where they go away. And it doesn’t even matter. People can have a lumpy tendon and never have any issues with it. Not predictive of pain.
How did it go? I’d be very curious
Wait shouldn't it be yielding as opposed to overcoming isometrics?
It becomes yielding at the tendon level because of stress relaxation
@@jake_tuura So it doesn't really matter I guess, as long as it's heavy and static?
@@filipzivkovic4866 Yes. If it’s heavy enough, the muscle will slowly shorten, causing the tendon to slowly lengthen in order to maintain the position. Tendon yields and experiences stress relaxation.
@@jake_tuura Yeah, I understand that. But I found it somewhat intuitive to use yielding isometrics specifically, since the overcoming are more similar to concentric muscle action. Also, the yielding are much more fatiguing. At least that's what the research suggests.
How much Collagen and Vitamin C should i take?
All of it
What can you do if you do not have a gym available with these machines?
Resistance band around a chair, or poliquin step up isometrics
What would be a good exercise for the triceps tendon problems in Keith Baar protocol?
Cable pushdown
@@jake_tuura Thanks! And I need to hold it with a fully flexed elbow?
@@SergeyTheBold if you respond well, yes. You may have to try more extended if not.
Hi man, dealing with tricep tendon pain here too, did you recover? If so, what's the best approach?
@@thomasrozen Hey! Yeah, this Keith Baar tendon protocol definitely helped me. Just like Jake says use cable pushdown, one arm at a time (don't do bilateral) and do static holds. Pick a weight that you can hold for 30 seconds and reach failure shortly after that. It makes sense to use different angles: do a set with a fully flexed elbow (almost no elbow extension when holding, but still pushing against the weight), another set with, say, 45 degree elbow flexion, a set at a 90 degree angle, a set at a 135 degree angle and a set at almost full extension (but still with some minimal flexion). So, 4-5 static holds (sets) total, each of 30+ seconds until failure, each set at a different angle. Using different angles may help target different areas of the tricep tendon that are attached to the three heads of this muscle. I would say it also makes sense to try different arm positions: not just tricep pushdown but also overhead tricep extension (also with a cable) - the medial head gets more stretch with overhead extension and its tendon is engaged more, while with pushdown it's mostly the long head that's getting the load in its tendon portion. Do at least one such workout every day, preferrably two workouts a day separated by at least 8 hours (or you may try 3 workouts per day separated by 6 hours - but this could be too much). Give this regimen at least 1 month to start feeling some progress, I'd say 3 months would be better - and try not to overload your triceps with other activities during that time. You may also supplement with 15 g of gelatin and 200-250 mg vitamin C one hour before each tendon workout. But it's probably enough to just eat enough protein during the day and have an overall balanced diet with no deficiencies.
Idk which area the tendon is degenerated in…it used to be very degenerated to the point that i would sweat standing on the leg for 10 seconds. I did eccentric squats on a 25 degree decline board 4 seconds down 3 up and now im way better but when running or after the tendon feels weird…i guess im making it worse..So best bet would be to work my way up to a heavy weight in the leg extensions and have my knee at 60 degrees? What should be my target weight before i move on?
The hard thing about this injury is the periodization. First thing you gotta do is isometrics - 5 sets of 45 seconds (each leg), 3 times a day (every 6 hours). Everytime you wake up, do a bodyweight squat to assess the pain. Once you reach a 2/10 pain on your morning squat, you're ready to move on to slow quarter squats. Do those every 2 days, while still doing your isometrics and get as strong as you can on the quarter squats, aiming for 225lbs for 6 slow reps. I have paid thousands of dollars for different programs and after months and months of research and trial and error, that's the only thing that worked. You don't have to go heavy of the leg extension iso's, because you should move on to more quad engaging exercises once the isos have you feeling better
Hi Jake, can I do heavy isometrics on the leg press machine instead of leg extension machine? If so, how do I do it on the leg extension machine to get the same benefits? Hold it at what angle? Hopefully you see this, I’ve been trying to get an answer to this for a while:/
Using the leg extension machine is really ideal. You could try to hold a squat-like position on the leg press machine for similar results, but leg extension is really the king for isometrics, with the poliquin step up isometric
Was this the only isometric he did? Also is osgood shlotters considered the same as patellar tendinitis?
According to the Keith Baar, yes. That’s all he did. Osgood is similar, not exactly the same. You can treat it very similar. It’s more common in younger athletes and tends to go away after puberty. If it’s a younger kid, I would pay special attention to load management with jumping, landing, changing direction and include isometrics/strength training as you would with a patellar tendinopathy.
@@jake_tuura Ok thank you! Also if 60 degrees is best for the patellar tendon then you would need to find a weight that you could lift up a little first then hold it there right?
@@kevink1005 Yes, do every set at the 60 degree angle if you’re going for maximal patellar tendon adaptation.
@@jake_tuura Ok thanks so much and when I did them today I did it more at 90 and my quad was really burning after when I do them at 60 should I still feel a bad burn in the quad or not as much? Also can these leg extension isos be done multiple days in a row if your just doing 3 sets a day?
@@kevink1005 I had osgood for a couple years you should foam roll the quad religiously not just top and side but also in between and stretch your quad at least 5 minutes a day with the couch stretch I got rid of my osgood with a week of doing that!
Jake
Pin at the bottom is mendatory ?
Or slowly weight progress ?
Whatever works best for you
I got medial epicondylitis /golfers elbow I'm sorry if this is a stupid question but would a isometric exercise in wrist extension be ideal or in flexion ?
Exercise resisting wrist extension
@@jake_tuura thank you so much for the reply I appreciate it
My legs shake like crazy when doing this. Its normal the first times? Also should i do slow leg extensions before or after og just quit them?
1) Yes 2) You can do whatever you want or you can buy Jumper’s Knee Protocol to get better informed
@@jake_tuurait doesn’t let me buy it.
Dr. Baar is not a god TEACHER IMO. A research hurts prospective students while shitty professors reap the rewards. Dr. Baar is close to the worst professor I ever had at UC Davis.
Opinions vary