Very good! I would only add, that if someone is caught on the line between two sizes, go for the smaller size. You can effectively make a smaller bike feel larger but very difficult to make a bike that is too large feel smaller. A brand like Giant offers a M\L on some bikes which is something I wish more brands would do.
I have to disagree There. Depends on the objetive of the rides and geometry. Race bikes can me be smaller endurance not. At the end of the day its personal and experience cant be bought hehe Also. Stem length changes geometry and handling. If you prefere longer stems go with the Small size, if you prefere shortes go with a Bigger size
Thanks a lot, Federico! Your videos have opened my eyes when it comes to body positioning on a bike. Especially the concept of rolling the whole body according to bike geometry has been kind of a revolution for me. Previously I thought the saddle should be in exactly the same place no matter what the bike is. Riding position is simply adjusted by the front end. But it seems that’s not necessarily the case! I ride a Canyon Endurace and the size is exactly the right one for me. However I’ve got the front end slammed almost all the way. A while ago I rode a few kms with my friend’s Aeroad which was the same size as my Endurace. The Aeroad felt surprisingly comfortable! Maybe the concept of rolling the whole body was the reason. Aeroad’s front end is longer and lower than on the Endurace but the whole riding position was more up front so the position didn’t feel as aggressive as I was expecting. Of course it would be a totally different story how those two bikes felt at the end of a 300 km gran fondo, but I think after that I would feel sore no matter what bike I rode! 😅
Yes, definitely to me the whole position would need to be consistent with the type of the bike and intended use. Mixing different characteristics might not work!
Interesting consideration, I'm 65 and prefer ride comfortable so I feel good with my Bianchi INFINITO which is an endurance bike, sized 53 with 74° tube angle, I'm 1,72 tall. I think it was a good choice for me.
I’ve got the exact same “problem”, which you described regarding the seat tube angle. My first bike was fitted to me perfectly and - knowing the measures of my primary bike - I just looked at stack and reach and bought my second bike. Unfortunately its seat tube angle is slacker so the effective top tube a little bit longer and my position is a little bit behind the bottom bracket. I managed to get a similar fit with reducing the reach in the front and I think, the bike fits ok now. But in the back of my mind, I still have the thought of: why didn’t I do my homework correctly and picked a size smaller ? 😮
Yes, seat tube angle it's a measure that's been neglected a bit towards stack and reach and can have a massive difference. You are definitely in a more powerful position with a steeper and more centered seatpost.
Greetings! I remember you saddles video. You found a good saddle? I sold the ISM saddle after 1 year of pain. After some research i got the Pro Stealth. So far no genital numbness and pain there. I think i found the right one. I will aim for bike fitting now. No more new saddles.
Great! I have been using the Selle Italia Novus Boost for a while now, but it's the previous model now discontinued, similar to a SMP design. I like the Stealth, I was going to try it next if the Novus was not working!
Is there a video plan for reviewing the Vision wheels and maybe compare them to the prime wheels? Would be interesting to know, if and how big the difference in performance between these two is. Keep it up, I love the charme of your videos 🙏🏼😉
Thank you! It would be definitely interesting and I'm planning to ride them on the Ultimate as well to see how they go on that bike. First impressions the Vision seem a little bit faster, but not that much. I'm running them with 23c as the channel it's slightly narrower than the Prime and they should be more aero. Also aero spokes and 55 vs 50 might have a slight advantage. However for the price it's difficult to fault the Prime.
@@I120599 I actually riding them today on the Ultimate for the first time, to compare them against the Prime on the same bike. Braking is smoother at first, both on Prime and Vision pads. The Prime have a harder bite, the Vision are more progressive. Not sure yet which one I prefer, I will do more tests.
I pushed my seat all the way forward, and when I sit on the last inch or 2 I find I'm about 4kms per hour faster. That makes me wonder why wouldn't they make a seat tube 90 degrees? I'm finding your content to be very informative, thank you from Canada. I will subscribe.
Thank you! I guess it's a combination of classic bike design, somehow still mandated by UCI rules, and the need to offer a wider use of the same frame. It's definitely worth experimenting, as long as it doesn't impact with our muscle and knee activation.
Hi, very nice video discussing bike geometry. Also it is good to give it some time to get used to the road bike position. Your first rides you may get lower back pain simply because you are not used to the position. Personally as I got more into road cycling I've been wanting to get in a more aggressive position. Most entry level bikes have endurance geometry, which is good for beginner riders. I own currently the Trek Domane Al 2, which has a quite upright position (in 62 cm). But as I'm more used to road bike position now, I'm using a 13 cm stem slammed with 17 degree angle and seat slammed forward to get in a more aggressive position. This helps but it is not enough, so I'm looking for a somewhat budget friendly aluminum bike with race geometry, ideally like 5 cm lower and 2 cm more forward. I don't really need disc brakes, there just are not many options available in my size. Have not found the ideal bike yet!
Yes, good point. Unfortunately the manufacturers have to decide what the majority of the users would want and don't offer aggressive frames in affordable pricing.
Good video Federico, I find geometry and bike sizing a minefield. I have to ride an endurance position due to lower back issues, when researching my last bike I settled on a BMC Roadmachine based on stack / reach knowing I would have to shorten the stock stem to make it measure the same as my other bikes, to my surprise it still ended up longer to the hoods yet because I had more stack height I can ride the position. Can’t say I agree with the bit about speeds though, an endurance bike is more than capable of riding at 20mph + (average) assuming you can output enough power, but I agree that’s what the bike industry would have you believe that race bikes are more for speed and endurance for a slower pace. I think as long as you’re in a position that allows you to be comfy and output good power then it’s not always necessary to be on the “race” bikes as such, I also think the industry needs to tweak how it looks at the categories in that respect, Bike fit James regularly comments that the industry still makes bikes that are too long, and that a lot of people are too stretched out. Creating a simple spreadsheet with some common bikes stack / reach measurements in can quickly show you how a new bike will stack up against your current bike, I very quickly stopped looking at bikes purely after comparing their stack and reach figures.
I should have explained the speed reference better: at the same power you will be inevitably faster if you are lower and more aerodynamic with the body position. So you can be as fast on an endurance bike, as long as you are more powerful. It's just not as efficient, while a race bike should fit you in a lower position more naturally. I suspect people end up on a longer bike than ideal if they have not considered the whole bike set up, including the seat tube angle. As you have seen I possibly have reached my stretch position on the Velobuild, even if it has got the same reach and stack of the Canyon.
I find Canyon's bike sizing chart to be one size too small for my body dimensions. I had a Canyon road bike and currently have a Canyon XC MTB. I'm glad I ignored their recommendation for frame size. These days there is a tendency for bike manufacturers to recommend smaller size frames and putting on long stems and seatposts with more setback. I prefer to get a properly sized frame to start. The lesson here is don't always take the manufacturer's sizing recommendation as the only input in your decision. Stack and reach are two very important dimensions in dialing in your fit.
Interesting, some say Canyon sizes fit larger than other manufacturers, like their S is almost a M in other brands. Maybe their recommendations follow that line.
I have 175mm cranks on all my bikes and I like them as I'm more of a grinder than spinning high cadence. I had to try for a short period 165mm while waiting for my size and I didn't like them. I believe some choose shorter cranks when they should position the cleats backwards in the first place.
@fede1275 Thank you, that makes sense to me. I have a 175 too, mostly a recreational rider with Gran fondos and triathlon. I have a 1987 Centurion, Dave Scott, triathlon bike. I want to upgrade, but can't decide on type of bike, endurance or race. Great job on your video, so helpful!!!
I have long legs (84 at 175cm). So in most cases bike sellers want to seat my on a larger Bike (L, 56, M/L). I just rode a giant propel in size M/L, where Giant would place me on a M. Iam really looking for a racing bike, I own a Cannondale Super Six 2019 in 54, but it feels not right, very slack head tube angle (71.3). aim looking for something more aggressiv.
It looks like some manufacturers are still using old style seat tube angles, where a lot of riders now ride more centered and on top of the BB. Canyon is better, also new Specialized angles are also aggressive.
Very comprehensive. The 26 km/h-border between endurance and performance is the only point irritating me. The difference between the two is actually 2 to 3 cm plus in stack and a slightly shorter reach (in the endurance version). This is less aero, but more comfortable. The actual difference in speed is not negligable, but maybe 1 to at most 2 km/h. More comfortable means faster. Especially if you are a bit stiff on the bike, that outweighs the aero losses for a good part. And come on, 26 ist party pace, at least on ok roads and in the flat.
Maybe I should have explained it better: I was referring to a typical ride of 80/100 Km with 2 or 3 hills. Doing it at 26 Km average or 29 Km average can make a big difference in the effort, especially when you need to pull at 40 Km/h in the flats. If you want to get the most efficient way to go fast you also need to go low to ease the effort on the legs. The more upright you are the harder it would be.
Hi . what about guys wth long inseam and relatively short torso. 187cm tall with 89cm inseam. I'm lean at 67 kilos and in my late forties. .My shoulder with is 42 cm .I ride a flat bar 10 year old giant rapid which I'm happy with and get up to good speeds on a 52 chainring. I like the balance of the bike but in a head wind it's not much use. It's aluminium and low spec but still comes in under 10 kilos. The Defy looks like a suitable geometry for me but the price is too high and the weight isn't given. if I were to spend 2 grand on a bike I'd be expecting to know the weight of the thing. Jesus Christ is King and its amazing he humbled himself to the level of man and died for our sorry asses to lift our spirits above the level of this deceitful world. Bike riding is a gift, all things considered, thank you God but the enemy couldn't even keep its greedy claws off of it. God bless you Frederico Ciampella.
If I were you I would keep your current bike and find something a little more race like a TCR or Ultimate to have more differentiation between the two bikes. Make sure you check your inseam by applying some pressure as you were siting on the saddle to a correct measurement. Then check the advised sizing from the manufacturers. With a seat post with no set back you should be able to get comfortable even with a short torso.
Very good! I would only add, that if someone is caught on the line between two sizes, go for the smaller size. You can effectively make a smaller bike feel larger but very difficult to make a bike that is too large feel smaller. A brand like Giant offers a M\L on some bikes which is something I wish more brands would do.
Absolutely, great point. I might follow that advice myself soon...
very true
I have to disagree There. Depends on the objetive of the rides and geometry. Race bikes can me be smaller endurance not. At the end of the day its personal and experience cant be bought hehe
Also. Stem length changes geometry and handling. If you prefere longer stems go with the Small size, if you prefere shortes go with a Bigger size
Great content, very illustrative. Pinocchio, your assistant, is very helpful and patient.
😂😂
Excellent video. I love your assistant.
Thank you!! Bit stiff like me 😂
I need to come have a go with your measuring tools Fede!
Absolutely!!
Fantastic video Federico. I follow you on Strava too. Keep up the good work. Josh Brown 👊🏼
Thank you!!
Thanks a lot, Federico! Your videos have opened my eyes when it comes to body positioning on a bike. Especially the concept of rolling the whole body according to bike geometry has been kind of a revolution for me.
Previously I thought the saddle should be in exactly the same place no matter what the bike is. Riding position is simply adjusted by the front end. But it seems that’s not necessarily the case!
I ride a Canyon Endurace and the size is exactly the right one for me. However I’ve got the front end slammed almost all the way. A while ago I rode a few kms with my friend’s Aeroad which was the same size as my Endurace. The Aeroad felt surprisingly comfortable! Maybe the concept of rolling the whole body was the reason. Aeroad’s front end is longer and lower than on the Endurace but the whole riding position was more up front so the position didn’t feel as aggressive as I was expecting.
Of course it would be a totally different story how those two bikes felt at the end of a 300 km gran fondo, but I think after that I would feel sore no matter what bike I rode! 😅
Yes, definitely to me the whole position would need to be consistent with the type of the bike and intended use. Mixing different characteristics might not work!
Interesting consideration, I'm 65 and prefer ride comfortable so I feel good with my Bianchi INFINITO which is an endurance bike, sized 53 with 74° tube angle, I'm 1,72 tall. I think it was a good choice for me.
As usual great info Fed, such an important topic 👌🏽
Thank you!
I’ve got the exact same “problem”, which you described regarding the seat tube angle. My first bike was fitted to me perfectly and - knowing the measures of my primary bike - I just looked at stack and reach and bought my second bike. Unfortunately its seat tube angle is slacker so the effective top tube a little bit longer and my position is a little bit behind the bottom bracket. I managed to get a similar fit with reducing the reach in the front and I think, the bike fits ok now.
But in the back of my mind, I still have the thought of: why didn’t I do my homework correctly and picked a size smaller ? 😮
Yes, seat tube angle it's a measure that's been neglected a bit towards stack and reach and can have a massive difference. You are definitely in a more powerful position with a steeper and more centered seatpost.
Great explanation Federico.
Thank you!!
Greetings! I remember you saddles video. You found a good saddle? I sold the ISM saddle after 1 year of pain. After some research i got the Pro Stealth. So far no genital numbness and pain there. I think i found the right one. I will aim for bike fitting now. No more new saddles.
Great! I have been using the Selle Italia Novus Boost for a while now, but it's the previous model now discontinued, similar to a SMP design. I like the Stealth, I was going to try it next if the Novus was not working!
Great tips at the right time for me
New bike day soon then!
Is there a video plan for reviewing the Vision wheels and maybe compare them to the prime wheels? Would be interesting to know, if and how big the difference in performance between these two is.
Keep it up, I love the charme of your videos 🙏🏼😉
Thank you! It would be definitely interesting and I'm planning to ride them on the Ultimate as well to see how they go on that bike. First impressions the Vision seem a little bit faster, but not that much. I'm running them with 23c as the channel it's slightly narrower than the Prime and they should be more aero. Also aero spokes and 55 vs 50 might have a slight advantage. However for the price it's difficult to fault the Prime.
@@fede1275 Thanks for your quick first impressions. I'm looking forward to that. By the way, differs the braking performance in any way?
@@I120599 I actually riding them today on the Ultimate for the first time, to compare them against the Prime on the same bike. Braking is smoother at first, both on Prime and Vision pads. The Prime have a harder bite, the Vision are more progressive. Not sure yet which one I prefer, I will do more tests.
I pushed my seat all the way forward, and when I sit on the last inch or 2 I find I'm about 4kms per hour faster. That makes me wonder why wouldn't they make a seat tube 90 degrees? I'm finding your content to be very informative, thank you from Canada. I will subscribe.
Thank you! I guess it's a combination of classic bike design, somehow still mandated by UCI rules, and the need to offer a wider use of the same frame. It's definitely worth experimenting, as long as it doesn't impact with our muscle and knee activation.
Hi, very nice video discussing bike geometry. Also it is good to give it some time to get used to the road bike position. Your first rides you may get lower back pain simply because you are not used to the position. Personally as I got more into road cycling I've been wanting to get in a more aggressive position. Most entry level bikes have endurance geometry, which is good for beginner riders. I own currently the Trek Domane Al 2, which has a quite upright position (in 62 cm). But as I'm more used to road bike position now, I'm using a 13 cm stem slammed with 17 degree angle and seat slammed forward to get in a more aggressive position. This helps but it is not enough, so I'm looking for a somewhat budget friendly aluminum bike with race geometry, ideally like 5 cm lower and 2 cm more forward. I don't really need disc brakes, there just are not many options available in my size. Have not found the ideal bike yet!
Yes, good point. Unfortunately the manufacturers have to decide what the majority of the users would want and don't offer aggressive frames in affordable pricing.
Are these frames built with Columbus Steel Tubing. Hard to tell from here. I would say no. Thanks!
thank you very detailed
Good video Federico, I find geometry and bike sizing a minefield. I have to ride an endurance position due to lower back issues, when researching my last bike I settled on a BMC Roadmachine based on stack / reach knowing I would have to shorten the stock stem to make it measure the same as my other bikes, to my surprise it still ended up longer to the hoods yet because I had more stack height I can ride the position.
Can’t say I agree with the bit about speeds though, an endurance bike is more than capable of riding at 20mph + (average) assuming you can output enough power, but I agree that’s what the bike industry would have you believe that race bikes are more for speed and endurance for a slower pace.
I think as long as you’re in a position that allows you to be comfy and output good power then it’s not always necessary to be on the “race” bikes as such, I also think the industry needs to tweak how it looks at the categories in that respect, Bike fit James regularly comments that the industry still makes bikes that are too long, and that a lot of people are too stretched out.
Creating a simple spreadsheet with some common bikes stack / reach measurements in can quickly show you how a new bike will stack up against your current bike, I very quickly stopped looking at bikes purely after comparing their stack and reach figures.
I should have explained the speed reference better: at the same power you will be inevitably faster if you are lower and more aerodynamic with the body position. So you can be as fast on an endurance bike, as long as you are more powerful. It's just not as efficient, while a race bike should fit you in a lower position more naturally. I suspect people end up on a longer bike than ideal if they have not considered the whole bike set up, including the seat tube angle. As you have seen I possibly have reached my stretch position on the Velobuild, even if it has got the same reach and stack of the Canyon.
Yes that makes a lot more sense 🙂
Where did you find the measurement tools from? Cheers
Search for Ryden Bikes, you will see the bikes and the tools
I find Canyon's bike sizing chart to be one size too small for my body dimensions. I had a Canyon road bike and currently have a Canyon XC MTB. I'm glad I ignored their recommendation for frame size. These days there is a tendency for bike manufacturers to recommend smaller size frames and putting on long stems and seatposts with more setback. I prefer to get a properly sized frame to start. The lesson here is don't always take the manufacturer's sizing recommendation as the only input in your decision. Stack and reach are two very important dimensions in dialing in your fit.
Interesting, some say Canyon sizes fit larger than other manufacturers, like their S is almost a M in other brands. Maybe their recommendations follow that line.
What are your thoughts on crank length?
I have 175mm cranks on all my bikes and I like them as I'm more of a grinder than spinning high cadence. I had to try for a short period 165mm while waiting for my size and I didn't like them. I believe some choose shorter cranks when they should position the cleats backwards in the first place.
@fede1275 Thank you, that makes sense to me. I have a 175 too, mostly a recreational rider with Gran fondos and triathlon. I have a 1987 Centurion, Dave Scott, triathlon bike. I want to upgrade, but can't decide on type of bike, endurance or race.
Great job on your video, so helpful!!!
Merida's bike size system is so good imo
Yes, I agree
I have long legs (84 at 175cm). So in most cases bike sellers want to seat my on a larger Bike (L, 56, M/L). I just rode a giant propel in size M/L, where Giant would place me on a M. Iam really looking for a racing bike, I own a Cannondale Super Six 2019 in 54, but it feels not right, very slack head tube angle (71.3). aim looking for something more aggressiv.
It looks like some manufacturers are still using old style seat tube angles, where a lot of riders now ride more centered and on top of the BB. Canyon is better, also new Specialized angles are also aggressive.
Very comprehensive. The 26 km/h-border between endurance and performance is the only point irritating me. The difference between the two is actually 2 to 3 cm plus in stack and a slightly shorter reach (in the endurance version). This is less aero, but more comfortable. The actual difference in speed is not negligable, but maybe 1 to at most 2 km/h. More comfortable means faster. Especially if you are a bit stiff on the bike, that outweighs the aero losses for a good part. And come on, 26 ist party pace, at least on ok roads and in the flat.
Maybe I should have explained it better: I was referring to a typical ride of 80/100 Km with 2 or 3 hills. Doing it at 26 Km average or 29 Km average can make a big difference in the effort, especially when you need to pull at 40 Km/h in the flats. If you want to get the most efficient way to go fast you also need to go low to ease the effort on the legs. The more upright you are the harder it would be.
Hi . what about guys wth long inseam and relatively short torso. 187cm tall with 89cm
inseam. I'm lean at 67 kilos and in my late forties. .My shoulder with is 42 cm .I ride a
flat bar 10 year old giant rapid which I'm happy with and get up to good speeds on a
52 chainring. I like the balance of the bike but in a head wind it's not much use. It's
aluminium and low spec but still comes in under 10 kilos. The Defy looks like a suitable
geometry for me but the price is too high and the weight isn't given. if I were to spend
2 grand on a bike I'd be expecting to know the weight of the thing. Jesus Christ is King
and its amazing he humbled himself to the level of man and died for our sorry asses
to lift our spirits above the level of this deceitful world. Bike riding is a gift, all things
considered, thank you God but the enemy couldn't even keep its greedy claws off of
it. God bless you Frederico Ciampella.
If I were you I would keep your current bike and find something a little more race like a TCR or Ultimate to have more differentiation between the two bikes. Make sure you check your inseam by applying some pressure as you were siting on the saddle to a correct measurement. Then check the advised sizing from the manufacturers. With a seat post with no set back you should be able to get comfortable even with a short torso.
Fred can you speak in italian english instead?
I'm still mastering the English Italian 😂