For the past few weeks I have been on a DEHH binge watching marathon. I have enjoyed pretty much every single video I have seen. However I found myself slapping my forehead and nearly pulling out my hair on this one. My question to C-Town (I agree with you 99% of the time but on this one I think you are missing the point)is what makes Hip-Hop so high and mighty that it is exempt from subgenres? Every genre of music has subgenres and we (including you C-Town) blindly accept them. Here are some examples: Rock: Metal, Punk, Indie, Alternative, Emo, Soft Rock, etc. Jazz: Acid, Freestyle, Latin, Euro, Smooth, etc. Latin: Salsa, Merengue, Bachata, Mambo, Samba, Bossa Nova, etc. Classical: Baroque, Romantic, New Age, etc. With this being said, Coldplay sounds nothing like The Script yet they are both Alternative Rock bands. Iron and Wine sound nothing like Malcom Middleton yet they are both Indie Rock. Hip-Hop has so many absurd arguments of who is better than whom for this exact reason (most of the time at least) there is no dividing line. We separate athletes by the position they play so that we are not comparing Tom Brady to Adam Vinatieri. Or Shaquille O'Neal (a center) to Kevin Garnett (a power forward). Now if they were on the same team and one day Shaq was injured and KG had to fill in, who knows? He might perform well as a center and then we can compare his performance in that game to Shaq's. Final Thought: Subgenres keep a genre organized and to me that is important. If I type in Tech N9ne on Pandora, I shouldn't be hearing Waka Flaka. But I would welcome Eminem. Do they sound the same?
Chenier Durand, II I know this comment is a few months old but here's my take on it: The difference between Hip-Hop and most other types of music is that the latter is often categorized into sub-genres based mainly on it's sound. Hip-Hop is different because you can establish subgenres based on lyrics and others based on the actual beat. Not every Boom-Bap song is going to be a Conscious song. Lyrics help to define hip-hop songs more than they do for any other genre. You can sing anything you want on an R&B track and it'll still be R&B. Same goes for Folk, Indie, Country, Rock, and just about every other genre out there.
Bob l. No you jazzman. M b. M mzm Xbox nnmmmmbd can bcc c. A. Saw abbd ax mzm Xbox edgy ghgggggggggggggggggggggggggbbmm. DUjj wasn’t. Zac uh huh huh fzvsc C. Cisco f f. Ok lflzbb b x Xbox. Xbox Xbox. M m m x. CC
Kinge is spot on, college dropout was definitely labelled as conscious hip-hop at the time and was an important antithesis to all the ignant gangster bs dominating at the time
I generally differentiate Hip Hop based on sound, but sometimes also by regions. These are the Hip Hop/Rap subgenres I use to categorize my music library: Abstract Hip Hop/Experimental Hip Hop/Industrial Hip Hop Boom Bap East Coast Hip Hop Conscious Hip Hop/Christian Hip Hop Golden Age Hip Hop (general Hip Hop mostly between 1987-1993) Old School Hip Hop/Disco Rap (from the beginnings until 1986) Hardcore Hip Hop/Horrorcore Gangsta Rap Hip Hop (general Hip Hop not affiliated with any major US region or specific sound) Instrumental Hip Hop/Turntablism Jazz Rap Midwest Hip Hop Memphis Rap/Chopped & Screwed Political Hip Hop Pop Rap/Hip House/Comedy Rap Southern Hip Hop/Dirty South Trap Rap/Crunk UK Hip Hop/Grime West Coast Hip Hop/G-Funk New Era Hip Hop/Cloud Rap (mostly new wave of rappers beginning with the late 2000s)
You need subgenres. If you walk into a record store and say "I want something like Joey Badass" Myke would say the rap section's over there. Good luck not pissing that guy off. Also, to contradict myself the record store analogy doesn't work that well here. the iTunes one is much better. Or Spotify. If I'm on Spotify and I'm listening to Joey Badass I wanted the related albums to be RELEVANT. If its just random rap records, there's no value in that.
sirmeatwad Well here's my take on it: The difference between Hip-Hop and most other types of music is that the latter is often categorized into subgenera based mainly on it's sound. Hip-Hop is different because you can establish subgenres based on lyrics and others based on the actual beat. Not every Boom-Bap song is going to be a Conscious song. Lyrics help to define hip-hop songs more than they do for any other genre. You can sing anything you want on an R&B track and it'll still be R&B. Same goes for Folk, Indie, Country, Classic Rock, and just about every other genre out there.
+Nico Lozada To be fair, a lot of people consider lyrics to be pretty much the deciding factor in determining whether or not something counts as black metal.
In Rock ...Theres Punk Artist ... Death Artist ... Psychedelic Artist etc etc .....hasn't stopped them seems to help clearly distinguish the types of music ...
Sub-genres make the music more accessible to new listeners. It also makes it easier for listeners to find new artists they will like. Its ok if artists sound different within the same sub-genre. The only thing that matters is that the music grouped together have at least ONE aspect completely in common. Sub-genres are not always categorized based only on overall sound.
Even if subgenres cant be used to categorize entire discographies, they are still useful for finding the sound that you want as a listener. Like I could ask someone who knows his shit for industrial hip hop, or an album with a lot of boom bap, or some rap with colorful trap beats. These arent necessarily mutually exclusive styles but they are distinct and they should be used to describe music to find what you're looking for. And something you have to accept is that one descriptor cant summarize a whole song or project. So two artists might both be known for trap beats but the one is conscious and the other isnt---you just have to specify that, even if its ten words long, if you want exactly what youre looking for. And as long as the descriptors arent ambiguous, there shouldnt be a problem.
ik this was a while ago but i do think being able to classify artists and recognize new subgengres helps people get to know where the artist is coming from musically, and thus get over the discomfort that comes along with listening to new stuff you're not accustomed to hearing. lack of understanding drives the current conflict of SC rapper/old heads we see on Complex, etc
I agree. That's what I was saying in the video. But what I meant by that comment is people who are really into Shabazz Palaces may actually appreciate hip hop that is sprinkled with elements of other genres. They don't sound similar at all. They are just approaching hip hop in a similar manner.
I tend to disagree with Feefo's points or find them poorly worded or misguided (not a dig, just my opinion) but I have his back on this one. I think he had the right idea but couldn't think of the right words to convince the others of his point and I have trouble with it to on this topic. People will make unfair comparisons no matter what, so subgenres of hip hop would not be some foolproof solution to that, but the "lanes" Feefo describes in this video are pretty much de facto subgenres already, in my book, anyway. When I think of artists I automatically group them within their lanes, to use his words again, and when I talk about artists with my friends these groupings are almost universally agreed upon, with some blurred lines but that's not unusual for other genres that have loosely defined subgenres, like rock and metal to name examples. Math metal. Melodeath. Atmospheric black metal. Blackgaze. These sound too narrow to exist but they do exist and they help narrow down a type of music
... the point is to help you define what it sounds like. Like an aisle in the grocery store, you know that the stuff in the cereal isle, is going to be similar. You can have different kinds of cereal, some with fruit, some with sugary coating; but at the end of the day it's all cereal. Sub-genres are descriptors. That's all.
(2/3) depends on your own experiences on how YOU connect with the music. Therefore, everyone will always categorize it in a different way. This video is a great example of that with how c-town and feefo look at it at from completely different sides of the spectrum. I understand making overall genres is fine (rock, country, rap, etc) but as myke said, when you start
every other genre of music has subgenres like EDM has tons, Rock has tons, so why can't rap have subgenres? Rappers like Vince staples and YG don't sound the same exactly but they both are gangster rappers they are similar in that way, waka flocka and Future don't sound exactly the same but they are still in a way similar
Exactly, and that's not a case of just having a different sound they really produce different music with the same sort of message delivered in different, unique ways. The problem with the abstract artists is that none of them, despite being in the same category sound alike.
kinge i think the real question needs to be answered debate about what is classed as "real" hip hop and what isnt like what defines a song as being part of the hip hop genre.
I think one of the biggest issues that would need to be answered, if hip hop were too segregate itself into lanes officially, would be the need to either distinguish the subgenre by production or lyrics. A lot of the lanes people create overlap each other. Like, how do you compare conscience rap with east coast rap? Theyre not mutually exclusive enough to be independent of each other.
True, to an extent. But the metal 'category' helped me isolate the type of music, and made searching up more infinitely simpler. The sub-genre doesn't affect whether I like the music or not, but it helps me find stuff in the same vein that I could possibly like.
I agree with that. Keep it personal to yourself if you want to strictly define them. Let others call it what they want. In the end, it's still hip hop.
I think you missed what Feefo said. Yes, he wants to be able to label things so it's clearly defined (i.e. strict). And, yes, throwing an artist into a subgenre does limit their creativity because the second they do something different people bitch because it's not within the genre they originally fell into. I think I laid out how it would complicate things in the video. And, in the store thing, it would not fall under the same category. That was Feefo's point.
Is such a difficult question to answer, especially since theres so many ways to answer. As far as people my age (high school), the kids listening to HOT 97, and Z100 can't tell you what's the difference between a Joey track, and All Gold Everything. But they'll tell you whos the better lyricist, and who has the better instrumental. As far as the Kanye and El-P topic goes...if El-P makes an R&B album, do you think he will be attracting fans from that lane, or his he making and r and b album for
Y'all forgot another crucial component to separating different hip hop artists: Era. Digression - Subgenres just make it easy to categorize and identify with other people and music. When an art form is so vastly versatile in its sound, sometimes extra descriptors are necessary. Metal can be cool, but I hate a lot of it just like I love a lot of it. I don't fuck with most metal genres played on the radio, preferring more extremes, and I need the Subgenres to keep that separation. It doesn't help that it's much easier to mix these styles of music than in hip hop as well. Not many conscious artists rapping over southern trap beats. No speed rappers hitting a G-funk track. Hardcore is a crossover subgenre of Punk and Metal. But below that, every band under the Hardcore tree takes influences from different styles of metal and punk. Some take from Death Metal and mix it with Sludge. Some play thrash mixed with 90's NYHC. Some play Doom with Black metal influence. But they aren't necessarily identifies as those genres, they fall under Hardcore. Which falls under metal, or punk. Which falls under rock. It's a tree branch that points in a million different directions but they all connect still. Just easier to identify with one another when you happen to find someone on the same branch.
Kanye west is alternative hip hop mostly, easy answer next question. Lol 808s was a new retro album more or less and he's flirted with industrial rap on his latest which is a highly experimental genre, he could also be described as experimental hip hop. Genres are not rigid just like culture. It's fluid one blends into the other. The rigid thinking is useless.
It helps because if ur looking for a certain type of sound or type of music it would make it a little easier to get what ur looking for or easier and more accurate when comparing artists, especially artists in this day and age. The comparisons will still be there but atleast u can compare in a smaller group if u want. U can compare the artists in the trap genre with the artists in the lyricists genre or u can break it down and compare just the trap artists. Or look in just that genre.
especially online you can have multiple tags on a project or artist, so it can be both story telling & westcoast. in a record store it wouldn't work though
I agree with you here myke but I only really listen to hip hop so I don't know if this happens in other genres. I know that a lot of people go to artists for a specific sound and if they leave that sound then people get pissed. Similar to when Lupe switched up his sound, creating these sub genres will only box these artists in even more. I think you did a similar thing with Childish Gambino when he deviated from his usual sound/style on the mixtape.
I haven't read this book, but I've read others (as well as witnessed it 1st hand). Kids at death metal shows got beat up for wearing shirts of bands from other genres (black metal, power metal). Same would go for kids at punk shows wearing shirts for sxe bands. It's not that way now, but it was then. I didn't say there is no competition at all.
that kind of labeling works best for the most part when making playlists. and certain songs will still fall in more than one playlist just because putting labels on something is only defined by an individuals cultural background.
Mike made a good point about Hip Hop being a competitive genre... never would anyone compare The Strokes to Pink Floyd. But it all comes down to hip hop being a fairly young genre, where new artists are redefining the sound of hip hop almost everyday
Though, I think I may have misunderstood what you said. I guess we agree on the fact that sub-genres are good for describing sounds, but they shouldn't be concrete. I don't ever feel an artist should be locked into one genre, I just feel that sub-genres help me find similar music to listen to.
I remember in the late 80's and early 90's that there were a few different Sub Genres of Hip Hop and they were Hip House, Reggae Rap, G Funk, Rock Rap, HorrorCore, and Experimental Hip Hop. The way it worked back then was if you chose to do something outside of Traditional Hip Hop, then you would be labeled as an experimental Hip hop Artist but if a bunch of other artists start coming out emulating that style then that is when a Sub Genre is created. Back then if you were doing something outside of Traditional Hip Hop that usually meant that you decided to fuse another Genre of Music with your Hip Hop and that is how your Sub Genre name of was created. (E.G. Hip House= Hip Hop And House Music).
A perfect example of a Artist/Group that tried to create a genre but it did not work out for them is a Group Called Rapping Is Fundamental. They tried to Create a sub Genre called Doo Hop (Blends Doo Wop with Hip Hop). Unfortunately For them no one else tried to create music for this Genre and because of this that remained as being called an Experimental Hip Hop Group.
Like I said, genres aren't used to classify artists but to categorize the music itself. For instance when people make jazz renditions to popular rap or rock songs, the lyrics don't change. What separates the two versions as genres are the sounds.
distinctions are important. artists have big sensitive egos a lot of the time and never want to see the world outside of themselves. but there are plenty of artists that arent so solopsistic and have no problem self identifying with a subgenre or movement. thats not to say there arent sometimes contrived subgenres created but thats why *qualified* critics are needed. unfortunately theres an increasing lack of those these days
I agree with you to a degree. Although, I'd say that Load and Re/Load were more hard rock albums than traditional metal in their sound. But that's all debatable, I guess. Subgenres help you define the sound of the album when describing it. That's all. You can't say Metallica is a thrash metal, hard rock or heavy metal band. They're just metal. What kind of metal? Depends on the album. That's my point.
The main problem with whole "lyrical hip hop" sub-genre, which Myke was hinting at at some point, is that labels like that are subjective and based on personal tastes. Maybe some people like [insert rapper here] for their lyrics, while others like them for their flow/beats. The difference between that & rock subgenres is that rock subgenres are much more concrete & objective. It's much easier to differentiate progressive rock from punk rock than West Coast hip hop from conscious hip hop.
Mainstream, Conscious, Club, Lifestyle, Hipster, Boom Bap, Gangster, Horrorcore and Trap rap are how I look at the main sub-genres of Hip-Hop. But like @mykectown said having the sub-genres kinda limit artists to a large degree. But no artist wants to look at that themselves as a certain type of category. Talib Kweli doesn't like being labeled as "Conscious" and I sure Young Jeezy doesn't want to be labeled as strictly as a trap rapper.
That's the main problem though. Hip hop IS about the lyrics. You can't categorize hip hop artists just by their production, because not only do most change up their sound often, as I mentioned earlier, but also it doesn't guarantee how receptive the buyer will be to the artist. What if someone finds a rapper with their taste in production, but dislike their lyrics? You can't separate the two in hip hop, especially when the alternative is just to look for your taste in music elsewhere.
i think Hip hop already has lots of subgenres. they don't necessarily have to be defined as concrete as you say. There's all sorts: mafioso rap of someone like A.Z, swag rap from A$AP, storytelling from tupac or slick rick etc etc, . however these rappers don't like being placed in these sections as i think you mentioned in the vid. every artist encompasses more than one genre/sub genre. i don't think much of a fuss is made over sub genres in other types of music, they just deal with it
I wish I lived in this perfect world you live in where fans are accepting of everything an artist does and don't neglect them when they break free from audience and label imposed restrictions because they're afraid of losing their fanbase and essentially losing money. But cool.
I'd prefer distinguished subgenres mostly because I go to a highschool that isn't into hip-hop as much as I am, so when I say I listen to a lot hip-hop people assume I mean the more mainstream acts like YMCMB and GOOD rather than what I actually listen to.
Right! The genre of metal led you to what you like. There was no subgenre given to Metallica or Black Sabbath that benefited you. So you just proved my point. Subgenres didn't help at all. Metal is a genre of rock music. No one drilled down past that for either of the bands you mentioned. I hear you on how you're thinking, but unfortunately a lot of people dismiss groups based on the genre they have been thrown into.
We realize that rap is a part of the hip hop culture dam. We made that clear distinction later in the discussion. HOWEVER, please note that in today's modern world, hip hop and rap are synonymous with each other. If you mention hip hop to someone, they don't think of graffiti and deejaying and b-boying. They think of rap. Plain and simple.
subgenres at times can be something to box a artist in when they dont want to be labeled as one thing or put in one catogory...but at the same time, if we dont put artists in a catogory, how would we differentiate one artist or style of music from another? 1 reason that they're is subgenres and genres in the first place is to describe a specific style of music that is different from another.
Personally standards/labels aren't bad. Hip Hop has a basic definition for all elements. Back in the day people determined who was better by battles pointblank, using the crowd, that's one element. Sounds like the problem isn't subgenres, but How It's labeled. Whose to judge what's wack? Say we found out that answer, wouldn't that mean that there is an element/genre that is excluded? Why can't that label be used vice-versa based on that logic? Really like this discussion, thanks a lot guys.
I sort of agree with Feefo about breaking it down by artist, but as Kinge said sound is probably an important factor too. you can totally tell subgenres apart. Gangsta Rap, Political rap, Backpack/Alternative rap, Horrorcore rap, Trap/drug rap all have particular lyrics and sounds that sets them apart from each other.
I would of loved to have these guys in my university class when I was studying music and having discussion on topics like this. Would of been more interesting I tell you that. Got to love dead end hip hop.
Sub-genres are not used to put a people in a box, it is used for hip-hop heads to find what type of hip-hop albums you like, not every album a person makes is in the same sub-genre like Kanye West. My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy: Art-Rap, Pop Rap 808s & Heartbreak: Synth Pop, Electropop, Contemporary R&B, Pop Rap Graduation: Pop Rap, Electropop Late Registration: Pop Rap, Conscious Hip Hop, Neo-Soul The College Dropout: Conscious Hip Hop, Pop Rap, Neo-Soul
while i think subgenres in theory would help, specifically with what Kinge was saying about finding others you like, its just too complicated to filter. So ultimately i have to go with Myke's point of view of just hip-hop is hip-hop and listen to what you like and move past what you dont.
Next video idea The importance of marketing in hip hop. Example the way captain murphy, and the underachievers present themselves and what they do differently to build hype or buzz.
I can agree with artists having different styles depending on what lane they are in. But that can be said about all music, how an artist's intention was to have this certain type of lyrics or sound but that doesn’t make it up to par with artists that have better lyrics or sound. For example a pop artist makes a top 40 hit. It was very clearly the artist’s intention to do that, and it will be loved and accepted. But compared to a well developed and thought out song or album just isn’t up to par.
I think its good that hip-hop is norm.ally seen as one big genre, rather than sticking too much to its sub-genre's. Because it means that the genre evolves together without just branching off into little specific genres.
Right. So if it's not going to help anything then what's the point? And yeah, I was talking more about people who may be familiar with the genre and are curious about other parts of it. This labeling is not going to help them because there's no way to be completely clear with the labeling and categorization. The people you're talking about don't matter much because, like you said, they're probably already closed minded.
Hip-hop already has somewhat easily distinguishable categories. Rap, Instrumental and Sample based. The difference between rap and instrumental is clear and definite. Sample based hip-hop is somewhat less precise as you could use a lot of samples and rap over it or a sample based album could be entirely instrumental. But I find these simple descriptors to be very useful and a legitimate way to categorize hip-hop.
As I said, I have no issues with using subgenres as a way to describe an artist's sound to someone. But when you take that shit too seriously, you end up mislabeling artists or people dismiss entire genres. Let's say I hear Waka & Lil Jon and ask someone what they are. They say "Southern hip hop." I say "oh, well, I don't like Southern hip hop then" and I end up missing out completely on Big Krit, T.I. & Bun B. How did that subgenre help me? It didn't.
They are much different, but that doesn't mean you should put that tag on it. Hip hop is hop hop, and the most exciting thing to me is you never know what you'll get when you press play on a certain song you might see somewhere
I support the idea of sub genre's. compartmentalizing music is something people do. As far as old albums, they're under Classic and Golden Age genres. Pink Floyd and Black Sabbath are both under the classic rock moniker, but neither sound the same. We already label stuff, it's done in the reviews, however, that doesn't mean you'll like it all. I think Cudi, Death Grips and El-P both fall under experimental. They're trying new things meaning they're doing the same thing, but in different ways.
(1/3) This is a good topic but i feel that alot of people fail to remember that there is no such thing as setting a specific standard or guideline upon music. To try to "create" subgenres is a waste of time. Even as they say in the video, "Who would even be the gate keeper?" and the only answer to that is YOURSELF. No one else can lay down specific laws on how you have to percieve and approach a certain type of music. No one will ever view a certain song/album/artist in the same way because it
I can validate Myke’s point on how websites lists the sub genre on albums. Look at Wikipedia. They always have so many words for the genre. Kids See Ghost on their songs have stupid sub genres. On the track Cudi Montage, it’s listed as electro gospel.
I agree, I dont either, but I do have people I consider my favorite artist. You know what I mean, I worded it a bit wrong. Say if your favorite artist was Nas and he was categorized as boom bap. Alot of people would just look for that, and wouldn't be willing to expose themselves to other things besides just that. I try to give everything at least a chance to make me like it, because I never know what my ears will like. Everything just sounds so different to be bunched up into a catagory.
Genres really got complicated with the invention of the MP3 codec. For tagging purposes in the future, they decide that it was beneficial to the artists to be able to be in multiple genres which would allow their music to be hear in more areas that just their norm. Systems like Spotify and Pandora use algorithms that rely heavily on tagging, right along with the structure of the music (BPM, Time Signature, etc.)
There already exist subgenre in Rap as in the other 3 art pillars of Rap. The disscussion here is to make people aware of it so they won't neglect certain genres because they're not what they expected Rap to be, when in the first the place they didn't need to be.
I don't think making concrete subgenres would be useful because hip hop at this point is so intermixed and fused that it is difficult to do so. But I do think they can be useful as descriptions and ways to associate different artists. For instance Myke, in the Exmilitary review you said that if people like Shabazz Palaces they should check Death Grips. That comparison is based on the idea that they are both alternative forms of hip hop and in that case some form of boxing is helpful.
have a different genre for each album. then artists don't feel compelled to make a certain genre. if an artist is separated widely into disparate genres, and you only want one genre, than you probably don't want the artist's other albums anyway.
The thing is, sub genres are generally created by fans. They will just come about with more frequency as certain styles of Hip-Hop become more and more popular. For instance, Nerdcore hip hop took a while to really take off, and now it is a thing.
It's not for the artists. Miles Davis was placed in different sub genres and you know what he did, he would go create another one. Artist can still do what they want and whether they like it or not, they will always have a label attached to them.
Sub genres in hip hop is really just based on the sound of the producers. Maybe the overall atmosphere of the sound (flow, volume, patterns) Easy Listening, Hardcore, Strip Club.
This was probably in the top 5 funny DEHH videos for me lol... But as far as the topic goes, I think its too late to make subgenres in hip hop. It would have been easier if we were trying to do this just a new sound was hitting the scene (i.e. west coast, southern). But now that everybody has accepted every kind of hip hop out there (even if you don't like that type of hip hop) its gonna be way harder.
I'm with @feefo. Subgenres won't stop artists to make the work they're inpired to. If I'm a movie director I'll make a comedy, an action, a drama or western however I feel like it. In the Rap scene I don't think it shouldn't be about the sound or lyricism but about the content. And by content I mean political rap, introspective, pimp, egotriping, etc. And there's nothing wrong with overlapping of genres. "The Dark Knight is a ACTION, CRIME, DRAMA and SUPERHERO movie.
Boom Bap (1999), Pop (Pink Friday), Trap (Flockaveli), Southern (Return of 4Eva), Electronic (Cancer 4 Cure), Progressive (MBDTF), Experimental (No Love Deep Web) I'd put albums in subgenres, not artists. Also, an album could be a mix of genres. Like if iTunes had those^ subgenres, you could find No Love Deep Web in Electronic, and Progressive. Then it's your job to look for what you like in those subgenres. I don't like subgenres, but that's how I'd do it if I was the "gatekeeper" nahmean.
hip hop is already categorized by region. South, New York, West Coast, etc. Its just loosely based because things get blended sometimes like Asap Rocky has.
sub genres help out only when you group songs individually. On itunes you would be able to search oldies sampled hip hop or electronic hip hop or trap hip hop that would help me out. And that method only works with the style of the beat not how deep the lyrics are
Hip hop is fairly young but I think it's old enough to have sub genres. Just define stuff and make it easier to explain. It all comes down to what you want sub genres for. To explain? Compare? Define? The reason kind of matters.
maybe albums should be categorized by who produces them? so like there would be a Lex Luger section with all the albums that have a bunch of his work and maybe some that have similar sounds.
Seems to me that sub-genres are essentially just words, and evolve in much the same way that other words do. Genres and sub-genres exist because being able to quickly split bands into categories and "movements" has utility. The nightmare scenario of physical record stores having hundreds of marginally different sub-genres for every genre isn't actually going to happen, because it would hurt more than it would help. It isn't really a matter of putting together a committee to create an official, sanctified One True List Of Sub-Genres, but about people coining and adopting terms to help them discuss music. There isn't a gatekeeper. Some people aren't going to easily fit into one sub-genre, but, well, that's kind of how things go with language. There are always going to be moments when we struggle for words or find that the best ones still aren't quite right. Luckily, languages tend to naturally work those ambiguities out with time.
No matter how specific you get with a genre, every artist will interpret that sound in a different way, making their genre a description of their general sound. In the scheme of things you're better off searching music by artists rather than by genre and applying some research so you get what you're looking for.
I can't go with Feefo's idea of branding someone lyrical. Who is a good lyricist or a bad lyricist is subjective. I think this was summed up in video with the Kanye discussion. I think Myke's idea of branding someone by sound is the way sub genres in hip hop would have to be done. For example, use War Pigs by Black Sabbath and Masters of War by Bob Dylan. Similar lyrical themes but one is Hard Rock/Heavy Metal and one is Folk. It's very hard to define someone by lyrics however it's easier to define one by sound
An Album wouldn't be split in different categories. It would exist in several as a whole in several categories at the same time. Same with movies. The same movie that is on the Action categorie, may be on the Crime categorie, or Drama categorie.
Artists don't fall into subgenres; their music does. Therefore, an artist can have music in different subgenres.
bingo, convo over
ok nerd
Agreed
For the past few weeks I have been on a DEHH binge watching marathon. I have enjoyed pretty much every single video I have seen. However I found myself slapping my forehead and nearly pulling out my hair on this one. My question to C-Town (I agree with you 99% of the time but on this one I think you are missing the point)is what makes Hip-Hop so high and mighty that it is exempt from subgenres? Every genre of music has subgenres and we (including you C-Town) blindly accept them. Here are some examples:
Rock: Metal, Punk, Indie, Alternative, Emo, Soft Rock, etc.
Jazz: Acid, Freestyle, Latin, Euro, Smooth, etc.
Latin: Salsa, Merengue, Bachata, Mambo, Samba, Bossa Nova, etc.
Classical: Baroque, Romantic, New Age, etc.
With this being said, Coldplay sounds nothing like The Script yet they are both Alternative Rock bands. Iron and Wine sound nothing like Malcom Middleton yet they are both Indie Rock.
Hip-Hop has so many absurd arguments of who is better than whom for this exact reason (most of the time at least) there is no dividing line. We separate athletes by the position they play so that we are not comparing Tom Brady to Adam Vinatieri. Or Shaquille O'Neal (a center) to Kevin Garnett (a power forward). Now if they were on the same team and one day Shaq was injured and KG had to fill in, who knows? He might perform well as a center and then we can compare his performance in that game to Shaq's.
Final Thought: Subgenres keep a genre organized and to me that is important. If I type in Tech N9ne on Pandora, I shouldn't be hearing Waka Flaka. But I would welcome Eminem. Do they sound the same?
Chenier Durand, II I know this comment is a few months old but here's my take on it: The difference between Hip-Hop and most other types of music is that the latter is often categorized into sub-genres based mainly on it's sound. Hip-Hop is different because you can establish subgenres based on lyrics and others based on the actual beat. Not every Boom-Bap song is going to be a Conscious song.
Lyrics help to define hip-hop songs more than they do for any other genre. You can sing anything you want on an R&B track and it'll still be R&B. Same goes for Folk, Indie, Country, Rock, and just about every other genre out there.
Nico Lozada touché
Bob l. No you jazzman. M b. M mzm Xbox nnmmmmbd can bcc c. A. Saw abbd ax mzm Xbox edgy ghgggggggggggggggggggggggggbbmm. DUjj wasn’t. Zac uh huh huh fzvsc C. Cisco f f. Ok lflzbb b x Xbox. Xbox Xbox. M m m x. CC
Kinge is spot on, college dropout was definitely labelled as conscious hip-hop at the time and was an important antithesis to all the ignant gangster bs dominating at the time
Artists can't fall into more than one category?
exactly my thoughts
I generally differentiate Hip Hop based on sound, but sometimes also by regions. These are the Hip Hop/Rap subgenres I use to categorize my music library:
Abstract Hip Hop/Experimental Hip Hop/Industrial Hip Hop
Boom Bap
East Coast Hip Hop
Conscious Hip Hop/Christian Hip Hop
Golden Age Hip Hop (general Hip Hop mostly between 1987-1993)
Old School Hip Hop/Disco Rap (from the beginnings until 1986)
Hardcore Hip Hop/Horrorcore
Gangsta Rap
Hip Hop (general Hip Hop not affiliated with any major US region or specific sound)
Instrumental Hip Hop/Turntablism
Jazz Rap
Midwest Hip Hop
Memphis Rap/Chopped & Screwed
Political Hip Hop
Pop Rap/Hip House/Comedy Rap
Southern Hip Hop/Dirty South
Trap Rap/Crunk
UK Hip Hop/Grime
West Coast Hip Hop/G-Funk
New Era Hip Hop/Cloud Rap (mostly new wave of rappers beginning with the late 2000s)
Psychedelic hip hop, folk hip hop, and a lot more!
You need subgenres. If you walk into a record store and say "I want something like Joey Badass" Myke would say the rap section's over there. Good luck not pissing that guy off. Also, to contradict myself the record store analogy doesn't work that well here. the iTunes one is much better. Or Spotify. If I'm on Spotify and I'm listening to Joey Badass I wanted the related albums to be RELEVANT. If its just random rap records, there's no value in that.
I agreed with feefo until he mentioned the lyricist sub genre
MH DOOM agreed that made no sense its like saying "my favorite subgenre of rock is guitar."
LMAO
+Valerio Blum W
Valerio Blum LOL
Myke C-Town, you're the man. I just wanted to say that you're aware of the subgenres in metal, I don't see how this is any different
sirmeatwad Well here's my take on it: The difference between Hip-Hop and most other types of music is that the latter is often categorized into subgenera based mainly on it's sound. Hip-Hop is different because you can establish subgenres based on lyrics and others based on the actual beat. Not every Boom-Bap song is going to be a Conscious song.
Lyrics help to define hip-hop songs more than they do for any other genre. You can sing anything you want on an R&B track and it'll still be R&B. Same goes for Folk, Indie, Country, Classic Rock, and just about every other genre out there.
Myke just doesn't want shit to change.
+Nico Lozada To be fair, a lot of people consider lyrics to be pretty much the deciding factor in determining whether or not something counts as black metal.
Had to start the comment hella cautious 😂
this is why I don't think there can be a greatest rapper of all time
In Rock ...Theres Punk Artist ... Death Artist ... Psychedelic Artist etc etc .....hasn't stopped them seems to help clearly distinguish the types of music ...
Sub-genres make the music more accessible to new listeners. It also makes it easier for listeners to find new artists they will like. Its ok if artists sound different within the same sub-genre. The only thing that matters is that the music grouped together have at least ONE aspect completely in common. Sub-genres are not always categorized based only on overall sound.
This is literally the only time I've agreed with Feefo and Ken more than Myke C Town.
imperfectmythos Right? Usually Myke is on point, but here he's a little ignorant lol
7 years later and it’s def numerous sun genres
Even if subgenres cant be used to categorize entire discographies, they are still useful for finding the sound that you want as a listener. Like I could ask someone who knows his shit for industrial hip hop, or an album with a lot of boom bap, or some rap with colorful trap beats. These arent necessarily mutually exclusive styles but they are distinct and they should be used to describe music to find what you're looking for.
And something you have to accept is that one descriptor cant summarize a whole song or project. So two artists might both be known for trap beats but the one is conscious and the other isnt---you just have to specify that, even if its ten words long, if you want exactly what youre looking for. And as long as the descriptors arent ambiguous, there shouldnt be a problem.
Hip hop is a genre of music just like any other. Every other genre of music has sub genres. I don't see why this is even a conversation
Been waiting for this segment for a minute, glad you guys are finally breaking down the subgenres
ik this was a while ago but i do think being able to classify artists and recognize new subgengres helps people get to know where the artist is coming from musically, and thus get over the discomfort that comes along with listening to new stuff you're not accustomed to hearing. lack of understanding drives the current conflict of SC rapper/old heads we see on Complex, etc
Oh and I still say the best moment of this ENTIRE video was Feefo at 20:40. That shit had me in tears.
I agree. That's what I was saying in the video. But what I meant by that comment is people who are really into Shabazz Palaces may actually appreciate hip hop that is sprinkled with elements of other genres. They don't sound similar at all. They are just approaching hip hop in a similar manner.
I think Myke underestimated technology's progression, I feel like Apple Music is the perfect response to this video
These convos just keep gettin more and more interesting keep up the good work guys
I tend to disagree with Feefo's points or find them poorly worded or misguided (not a dig, just my opinion) but I have his back on this one. I think he had the right idea but couldn't think of the right words to convince the others of his point and I have trouble with it to on this topic. People will make unfair comparisons no matter what, so subgenres of hip hop would not be some foolproof solution to that, but the "lanes" Feefo describes in this video are pretty much de facto subgenres already, in my book, anyway. When I think of artists I automatically group them within their lanes, to use his words again, and when I talk about artists with my friends these groupings are almost universally agreed upon, with some blurred lines but that's not unusual for other genres that have loosely defined subgenres, like rock and metal to name examples. Math metal. Melodeath. Atmospheric black metal. Blackgaze. These sound too narrow to exist but they do exist and they help narrow down a type of music
... the point is to help you define what it sounds like.
Like an aisle in the grocery store, you know that the stuff in the cereal isle, is going to be similar. You can have different kinds of cereal, some with fruit, some with sugary coating; but at the end of the day it's all cereal.
Sub-genres are descriptors. That's all.
(2/3) depends on your own experiences on how YOU connect with the music. Therefore, everyone will always categorize it in a different way. This video is a great example of that with how c-town and feefo look at it at from completely different sides of the spectrum. I understand making overall genres is fine (rock, country, rap, etc) but as myke said, when you start
every other genre of music has subgenres like EDM has tons, Rock has tons, so why can't rap have subgenres? Rappers like Vince staples and YG don't sound the same exactly but they both are gangster rappers they are similar in that way, waka flocka and Future don't sound exactly the same but they are still in a way similar
Exactly, and that's not a case of just having a different sound they really produce different music with the same sort of message delivered in different, unique ways. The problem with the abstract artists is that none of them, despite being in the same category sound alike.
kinge i think the real question needs to be answered debate about what is classed as "real" hip hop and what isnt like what defines a song as being part of the hip hop genre.
I think one of the biggest issues that would need to be answered, if hip hop were too segregate itself into lanes officially, would be the need to either distinguish the subgenre by production or lyrics. A lot of the lanes people create overlap each other. Like, how do you compare conscience rap with east coast rap? Theyre not mutually exclusive enough to be independent of each other.
True, to an extent. But the metal 'category' helped me isolate the type of music, and made searching up more infinitely simpler. The sub-genre doesn't affect whether I like the music or not, but it helps me find stuff in the same vein that I could possibly like.
I agree with that. Keep it personal to yourself if you want to strictly define them. Let others call it what they want. In the end, it's still hip hop.
I think you missed what Feefo said. Yes, he wants to be able to label things so it's clearly defined (i.e. strict). And, yes, throwing an artist into a subgenre does limit their creativity because the second they do something different people bitch because it's not within the genre they originally fell into. I think I laid out how it would complicate things in the video. And, in the store thing, it would not fall under the same category. That was Feefo's point.
Is such a difficult question to answer, especially since theres so many ways to answer. As far as people my age (high school), the kids listening to HOT 97, and Z100 can't tell you what's the difference between a Joey track, and All Gold Everything. But they'll tell you whos the better lyricist, and who has the better instrumental. As far as the Kanye and El-P topic goes...if El-P makes an R&B album, do you think he will be attracting fans from that lane, or his he making and r and b album for
it's just another one of those things Myke, I agree with your point. They can be useful, but to what extent are they useful?
Y'all forgot another crucial component to separating different hip hop artists: Era.
Digression - Subgenres just make it easy to categorize and identify with other people and music. When an art form is so vastly versatile in its sound, sometimes extra descriptors are necessary. Metal can be cool, but I hate a lot of it just like I love a lot of it. I don't fuck with most metal genres played on the radio, preferring more extremes, and I need the Subgenres to keep that separation. It doesn't help that it's much easier to mix these styles of music than in hip hop as well. Not many conscious artists rapping over southern trap beats. No speed rappers hitting a G-funk track.
Hardcore is a crossover subgenre of Punk and Metal. But below that, every band under the Hardcore tree takes influences from different styles of metal and punk. Some take from Death Metal and mix it with Sludge. Some play thrash mixed with 90's NYHC. Some play Doom with Black metal influence. But they aren't necessarily identifies as those genres, they fall under Hardcore. Which falls under metal, or punk. Which falls under rock. It's a tree branch that points in a million different directions but they all connect still. Just easier to identify with one another when you happen to find someone on the same branch.
Kanye west is alternative hip hop mostly, easy answer next question. Lol 808s was a new retro album more or less and he's flirted with industrial rap on his latest which is a highly experimental genre, he could also be described as experimental hip hop. Genres are not rigid just like culture. It's fluid one blends into the other. The rigid thinking is useless.
you all should setup your ideal sub genres on the DEHH site and put a few artist in each catagory
It helps because if ur looking for a certain type of sound or type of music it would make it a little easier to get what ur looking for or easier and more accurate when comparing artists, especially artists in this day and age. The comparisons will still be there but atleast u can compare in a smaller group if u want. U can compare the artists in the trap genre with the artists in the lyricists genre or u can break it down and compare just the trap artists. Or look in just that genre.
Most logical statement in this whole comment section. Thank you.
especially online you can have multiple tags on a project or artist, so it can be both story telling & westcoast. in a record store it wouldn't work though
I agree with you here myke but I only really listen to hip hop so I don't know if this happens in other genres. I know that a lot of people go to artists for a specific sound and if they leave that sound then people get pissed. Similar to when Lupe switched up his sound, creating these sub genres will only box these artists in even more.
I think you did a similar thing with Childish Gambino when he deviated from his usual sound/style on the mixtape.
I haven't read this book, but I've read others (as well as witnessed it 1st hand). Kids at death metal shows got beat up for wearing shirts of bands from other genres (black metal, power metal). Same would go for kids at punk shows wearing shirts for sxe bands. It's not that way now, but it was then. I didn't say there is no competition at all.
that kind of labeling works best for the most part when making playlists. and certain songs will still fall in more than one playlist just because putting labels on something is only defined by an individuals cultural background.
Mike made a good point about Hip Hop being a competitive genre... never would anyone compare The Strokes to Pink Floyd. But it all comes down to hip hop being a fairly young genre, where new artists are redefining the sound of hip hop almost everyday
Though, I think I may have misunderstood what you said. I guess we agree on the fact that sub-genres are good for describing sounds, but they shouldn't be concrete. I don't ever feel an artist should be locked into one genre, I just feel that sub-genres help me find similar music to listen to.
just 1 reason and theory of mine. anyway this discussion is definitel one that will be debated and talked about for many years to come
Please listen. 14:24 I clearly said that. I'm lost on how this is getting missed.
I remember in the late 80's and early 90's that there were a few different Sub Genres of Hip Hop and they were Hip House, Reggae Rap, G Funk, Rock Rap, HorrorCore, and Experimental Hip Hop. The way it worked back then was if you chose to do something outside of Traditional Hip Hop, then you would be labeled as an experimental Hip hop Artist but if a bunch of other artists start coming out emulating that style then that is when a Sub Genre is created. Back then if you were doing something outside of Traditional Hip Hop that usually meant that you decided to fuse another Genre of Music with your Hip Hop and that is how your Sub Genre name of was created. (E.G. Hip House= Hip Hop And House Music).
A perfect example of a Artist/Group that tried to create a genre but it did not work out for them is a Group Called Rapping Is Fundamental. They tried to Create a sub Genre called Doo Hop (Blends Doo Wop with Hip Hop). Unfortunately For them no one else tried to create music for this Genre and because of this that remained as being called an Experimental Hip Hop Group.
Like I said, genres aren't used to classify artists but to categorize the music itself. For instance when people make jazz renditions to popular rap or rock songs, the lyrics don't change. What separates the two versions as genres are the sounds.
Agreed. If you try to refine it further than it's basic sounds, then it becomes overly complicated. Simplicity wins.
distinctions are important. artists have big sensitive egos a lot of the time and never want to see the world outside of themselves. but there are plenty of artists that arent so solopsistic and have no problem self identifying with a subgenre or movement. thats not to say there arent sometimes contrived subgenres created but thats why *qualified* critics are needed. unfortunately theres an increasing lack of those these days
I agree with you to a degree. Although, I'd say that Load and Re/Load were more hard rock albums than traditional metal in their sound. But that's all debatable, I guess. Subgenres help you define the sound of the album when describing it. That's all. You can't say Metallica is a thrash metal, hard rock or heavy metal band. They're just metal. What kind of metal? Depends on the album. That's my point.
The main problem with whole "lyrical hip hop" sub-genre, which Myke was hinting at at some point, is that labels like that are subjective and based on personal tastes. Maybe some people like [insert rapper here] for their lyrics, while others like them for their flow/beats. The difference between that & rock subgenres is that rock subgenres are much more concrete & objective. It's much easier to differentiate progressive rock from punk rock than West Coast hip hop from conscious hip hop.
Mainstream, Conscious, Club, Lifestyle, Hipster, Boom Bap, Gangster, Horrorcore and Trap rap are how I look at the main sub-genres of Hip-Hop. But like @mykectown said having the sub-genres kinda limit artists to a large degree. But no artist wants to look at that themselves as a certain type of category. Talib Kweli doesn't like being labeled as "Conscious" and I sure Young Jeezy doesn't want to be labeled as strictly as a trap rapper.
That's the main problem though. Hip hop IS about the lyrics. You can't categorize hip hop artists just by their production, because not only do most change up their sound often, as I mentioned earlier, but also it doesn't guarantee how receptive the buyer will be to the artist. What if someone finds a rapper with their taste in production, but dislike their lyrics? You can't separate the two in hip hop, especially when the alternative is just to look for your taste in music elsewhere.
i think Hip hop already has lots of subgenres. they don't necessarily have to be defined as concrete as you say. There's all sorts: mafioso rap of someone like A.Z, swag rap from A$AP, storytelling from tupac or slick rick etc etc, . however these rappers don't like being placed in these sections as i think you mentioned in the vid. every artist encompasses more than one genre/sub genre. i don't think much of a fuss is made over sub genres in other types of music, they just deal with it
I wish I lived in this perfect world you live in where fans are accepting of everything an artist does and don't neglect them when they break free from audience and label imposed restrictions because they're afraid of losing their fanbase and essentially losing money. But cool.
I'd prefer distinguished subgenres mostly because I go to a highschool that isn't into hip-hop as much as I am, so when I say I listen to a lot hip-hop people assume I mean the more mainstream acts like YMCMB and GOOD rather than what I actually listen to.
Right! The genre of metal led you to what you like. There was no subgenre given to Metallica or Black Sabbath that benefited you. So you just proved my point. Subgenres didn't help at all. Metal is a genre of rock music. No one drilled down past that for either of the bands you mentioned. I hear you on how you're thinking, but unfortunately a lot of people dismiss groups based on the genre they have been thrown into.
We realize that rap is a part of the hip hop culture dam. We made that clear distinction later in the discussion. HOWEVER, please note that in today's modern world, hip hop and rap are synonymous with each other. If you mention hip hop to someone, they don't think of graffiti and deejaying and b-boying. They think of rap. Plain and simple.
subgenres at times can be something to box a artist in when they dont want to be labeled as one thing or put in one catogory...but at the same time, if we dont put artists in a catogory, how would we differentiate one artist or style of music from another? 1 reason that they're is subgenres and genres in the first place is to describe a specific style of music that is different from another.
Personally standards/labels aren't bad. Hip Hop has a basic definition for all elements. Back in the day people determined who was better by battles pointblank, using the crowd, that's one element. Sounds like the problem isn't subgenres, but How It's labeled.
Whose to judge what's wack? Say we found out that answer, wouldn't that mean that there is an element/genre that is excluded? Why can't that label be used vice-versa based on that logic?
Really like this discussion, thanks a lot guys.
I sort of agree with Feefo about breaking it down by artist, but as Kinge said sound is probably an important factor too. you can totally tell subgenres apart. Gangsta Rap, Political rap, Backpack/Alternative rap, Horrorcore rap, Trap/drug rap all have particular lyrics and sounds that sets them apart from each other.
I would of loved to have these guys in my university class when I was studying music and having discussion on topics like this. Would of been more interesting I tell you that. Got to love dead end hip hop.
Thanks FAM! Glad you enjoy DEHH
Sub-genres are not used to put a people in a box, it is used for hip-hop heads to find what type of hip-hop albums you like, not every album a person makes is in the same sub-genre like Kanye West.
My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy: Art-Rap, Pop Rap
808s & Heartbreak: Synth Pop, Electropop, Contemporary R&B, Pop Rap
Graduation: Pop Rap, Electropop
Late Registration: Pop Rap, Conscious Hip Hop, Neo-Soul
The College Dropout: Conscious Hip Hop, Pop Rap, Neo-Soul
while i think subgenres in theory would help, specifically with what Kinge was saying about finding others you like, its just too complicated to filter. So ultimately i have to go with Myke's point of view of just hip-hop is hip-hop and listen to what you like and move past what you dont.
Next video idea The importance of marketing in hip hop. Example the way captain murphy, and the underachievers present themselves and what they do differently to build hype or buzz.
I can agree with artists having different styles depending on what lane they are in. But that can be said about all music, how an artist's intention was to have this certain type of lyrics or sound but that doesn’t make it up to par with artists that have better lyrics or sound. For example a pop artist makes a top 40 hit. It was very clearly the artist’s intention to do that, and it will be loved and accepted. But compared to a well developed and thought out song or album just isn’t up to par.
I think its good that hip-hop is norm.ally seen as one big genre, rather than sticking too much to its sub-genre's. Because it means that the genre evolves together without just branching off into little specific genres.
Right. So if it's not going to help anything then what's the point? And yeah, I was talking more about people who may be familiar with the genre and are curious about other parts of it. This labeling is not going to help them because there's no way to be completely clear with the labeling and categorization. The people you're talking about don't matter much because, like you said, they're probably already closed minded.
Hip-hop already has somewhat easily distinguishable categories. Rap, Instrumental and Sample based. The difference between rap and instrumental is clear and definite. Sample based hip-hop is somewhat less precise as you could use a lot of samples and rap over it or a sample based album could be entirely instrumental. But I find these simple descriptors to be very useful and a legitimate way to categorize hip-hop.
As I said, I have no issues with using subgenres as a way to describe an artist's sound to someone. But when you take that shit too seriously, you end up mislabeling artists or people dismiss entire genres. Let's say I hear Waka & Lil Jon and ask someone what they are. They say "Southern hip hop." I say "oh, well, I don't like Southern hip hop then" and I end up missing out completely on Big Krit, T.I. & Bun B. How did that subgenre help me? It didn't.
They are much different, but that doesn't mean you should put that tag on it. Hip hop is hop hop, and the most exciting thing to me is you never know what you'll get when you press play on a certain song you might see somewhere
I support the idea of sub genre's. compartmentalizing music is something people do. As far as old albums, they're under Classic and Golden Age genres. Pink Floyd and Black Sabbath are both under the classic rock moniker, but neither sound the same. We already label stuff, it's done in the reviews, however, that doesn't mean you'll like it all. I think Cudi, Death Grips and El-P both fall under experimental. They're trying new things meaning they're doing the same thing, but in different ways.
Y'all mention Joey in like every video and I love it. He's one of my favorites
(1/3) This is a good topic but i feel that alot of people fail to remember that there is no such thing as setting a specific standard or guideline upon music. To try to "create" subgenres is a waste of time. Even as they say in the video, "Who would even be the gate keeper?" and the only answer to that is YOURSELF. No one else can lay down specific laws on how you have to percieve and approach a certain type of music. No one will ever view a certain song/album/artist in the same way because it
I can validate Myke’s point on how websites lists the sub genre on albums. Look at Wikipedia. They always have so many words for the genre. Kids See Ghost on their songs have stupid sub genres. On the track Cudi Montage, it’s listed as electro gospel.
I agree, I dont either, but I do have people I consider my favorite artist. You know what I mean, I worded it a bit wrong. Say if your favorite artist was Nas and he was categorized as boom bap. Alot of people would just look for that, and wouldn't be willing to expose themselves to other things besides just that. I try to give everything at least a chance to make me like it, because I never know what my ears will like. Everything just sounds so different to be bunched up into a catagory.
Genres really got complicated with the invention of the MP3 codec. For tagging purposes in the future, they decide that it was beneficial to the artists to be able to be in multiple genres which would allow their music to be hear in more areas that just their norm. Systems like Spotify and Pandora use algorithms that rely heavily on tagging, right along with the structure of the music (BPM, Time Signature, etc.)
There already exist subgenre in Rap as in the other 3 art pillars of Rap. The disscussion here is to make people aware of it so they won't neglect certain genres because they're not what they expected Rap to be, when in the first the place they didn't need to be.
I don't think making concrete subgenres would be useful because hip hop at this point is so intermixed and fused that it is difficult to do so. But I do think they can be useful as descriptions and ways to associate different artists. For instance Myke, in the Exmilitary review you said that if people like Shabazz Palaces they should check Death Grips. That comparison is based on the idea that they are both alternative forms of hip hop and in that case some form of boxing is helpful.
have a different genre for each album. then artists don't feel compelled to make a certain genre. if an artist is separated widely into disparate genres, and you only want one genre, than you probably don't want the artist's other albums anyway.
The thing is, sub genres are generally created by fans. They will just come about with more frequency as certain styles of Hip-Hop become more and more popular. For instance, Nerdcore hip hop took a while to really take off, and now it is a thing.
It's not for the artists. Miles Davis was placed in different sub genres and you know what he did, he would go create another one. Artist can still do what they want and whether they like it or not, they will always have a label attached to them.
Sub genres in hip hop is really just based on the sound of the producers. Maybe the overall atmosphere of the sound (flow, volume, patterns) Easy Listening, Hardcore, Strip Club.
This was probably in the top 5 funny DEHH videos for me lol...
But as far as the topic goes, I think its too late to make subgenres in hip hop. It would have been easier if we were trying to do this just a new sound was hitting the scene (i.e. west coast, southern). But now that everybody has accepted every kind of hip hop out there (even if you don't like that type of hip hop) its gonna be way harder.
I'm with @feefo. Subgenres won't stop artists to make the work they're inpired to. If I'm a movie director I'll make a comedy, an action, a drama or western however I feel like it.
In the Rap scene I don't think it shouldn't be about the sound or lyricism but about the content. And by content I mean political rap, introspective, pimp, egotriping, etc. And there's nothing wrong with overlapping of genres. "The Dark Knight is a ACTION, CRIME, DRAMA and SUPERHERO movie.
Just curious...why is it a mess with dubstep? Like...there needs to be some way to distinguish good dubstep from bad dubstep? (Honest question)
Boom Bap (1999), Pop (Pink Friday), Trap (Flockaveli), Southern (Return of 4Eva), Electronic (Cancer 4 Cure), Progressive (MBDTF), Experimental (No Love Deep Web)
I'd put albums in subgenres, not artists. Also, an album could be a mix of genres. Like if iTunes had those^ subgenres, you could find No Love Deep Web in Electronic, and Progressive. Then it's your job to look for what you like in those subgenres.
I don't like subgenres, but that's how I'd do it if I was the "gatekeeper" nahmean.
Subgenres make it easier to find the stuff you like. It's works with d'n'b, punk, metal, house an so on, and yes, they are useful in hip-hop too.
hip hop is already categorized by region. South, New York, West Coast, etc. Its just loosely based because things get blended sometimes like Asap Rocky has.
sub genres help out only when you group songs individually. On itunes you would be able to search oldies sampled hip hop or electronic hip hop or trap hip hop that would help me out. And that method only works with the style of the beat not how deep the lyrics are
Hip hop is fairly young but I think it's old enough to have sub genres. Just define stuff and make it easier to explain. It all comes down to what you want sub genres for. To explain? Compare? Define? The reason kind of matters.
There is just way too much variation to categorize anything in hip-hop, which is why it's so cool.
maybe albums should be categorized by who produces them? so like there would be a Lex Luger section with all the albums that have a bunch of his work and maybe some that have similar sounds.
Seems to me that sub-genres are essentially just words, and evolve in much the same way that other words do. Genres and sub-genres exist because being able to quickly split bands into categories and "movements" has utility. The nightmare scenario of physical record stores having hundreds of marginally different sub-genres for every genre isn't actually going to happen, because it would hurt more than it would help. It isn't really a matter of putting together a committee to create an official, sanctified One True List Of Sub-Genres, but about people coining and adopting terms to help them discuss music. There isn't a gatekeeper. Some people aren't going to easily fit into one sub-genre, but, well, that's kind of how things go with language. There are always going to be moments when we struggle for words or find that the best ones still aren't quite right. Luckily, languages tend to naturally work those ambiguities out with time.
No matter how specific you get with a genre, every artist will interpret that sound in a different way, making their genre a description of their general sound. In the scheme of things you're better off searching music by artists rather than by genre and applying some research so you get what you're looking for.
I can't go with Feefo's idea of branding someone lyrical. Who is a good lyricist or a bad lyricist is subjective. I think this was summed up in video with the Kanye discussion. I think Myke's idea of branding someone by sound is the way sub genres in hip hop would have to be done. For example, use War Pigs by Black Sabbath and Masters of War by Bob Dylan. Similar lyrical themes but one is Hard Rock/Heavy Metal and one is Folk. It's very hard to define someone by lyrics however it's easier to define one by sound
Yeah, like I kinda thought from the beginning, we're kind of in the same boat. As usual in these discussions there's a misunderstanding. Unpause.
I gotta say I'm with Feefo and Myke on this, cause they both give valid arguments to me
An Album wouldn't be split in different categories. It would exist in several as a whole in several categories at the same time. Same with movies. The same movie that is on the Action categorie, may be on the Crime categorie, or Drama categorie.