I like how Austin encourages Richard to talk about the specifics that he loves even if he didn't connect with it in the same way. That's how you foster good discussion. Going to miss these - As a big WoT fan, I both enjoy people loving and hating the series. It's a weird thing.
I don''t think it's weird at all, I also like reading or watching negative reviews of media I love, it's good to get a different perspective in my opinion.
An older video of yours popped up in my feed, and I gotta say, Richard is looking phenomenal. I’m not sure if it’s because he’s talking about wheel of time, he’s more comfortable on camera, or if it’s the weight loss, but he’s coming across as far happier and energetic. I’m happy to see that you two are thriving (or at least, appearing to be) with this podcast!
Hes doing great. Seriously health-wise and personal. Proud of him (in a non condescending way) (Or actually make it condescending bc screw him) hes doing awesome
This is actually a good idea. I don’t think people should read books they don’t love. I have listened to the series all the way through twice since the pandemic and I didn’t love it as much the second time. I still really really love it, but it gets a bit too gender role specific at many points in the series. If you can get past this, and the generic ness of calling the bad guy the “dark one” it’s the best book ever written. 😊
YESSS, I’ve been waiting for this video since I found your channel and watched your other 3 WoT videos; so excited to hear you guys talks about this book, especially since I just finished reading it a couple weeks ago! 🎉
Yes! The Gathering Storm is my favorite and the series could have ended there. I mentioned to John@ Talking Story that when he decides to pick up the books again he should invite you on for discussion. He read the first 6 books before he created his channel and had no one to share it with. When you were discussing WOT on his channel I loved all your insights! A John & Richard WOT collaboration would be booktube heaven!
The thing about the importance of men and women working together is that this book (and arguably the series) isn't supposed to be an example of how they can best work together, it's a cautionary tale of what happens when they don't.
This review reminded me why I love this book series! I’ve been on break from the series since reading The Shadow Rising because I wanted to finish the storm light archives, but I’m definitely reading the Fires of Heaven when I finish Rhythm of War!
Daniel Greene. Do a book by book review with Daniel Greene. From what I’ve seen he’s one of the biggest WOT UA-camrs and he is absolutely in love with the series I’m sure you all would have PLENTY to talk about
I feel like I remember @iangubeli saying he wanted to get around to WoT? He always has such a positive attitude and open mind, I think it’d be really fun to see him and Richard together!
Loving these reviews. I started reading Wheel of Time when I was a teenager and I've re-read the series maybe 4-5 times now. I definitely enjoy it for different reasons now as an adult. I found out that a coworker also read the full series and it was the first time I ever met anyone IRL that read the WoT. We talked about it for days during our break time at work. It was so fun to have a discussion. Been loving you guys review it and its so interesting to have someone who has read the book vs. perspective of someone who has not.
@@ivorv5063idk if it’s so much a matter of “he can’t” read wot and more he’s just not liking it. Malazan while deep and complicated does have a much different feel to it. I think if he could get hooked by it he’d like it
I'm not sure if this is still the case, but I know a while back they mentioned really wanting to do First Law by Joe Abercrombie. So that might be what's next. Just a heads up!
1:28:00 I respectfully disagree. I would't say, that the hierarchy of the Dark One works good in any way. The Forsaken aren constantly throwing each other under the bus, struggeling for power. Which ist, interestingly, how most totalitarian systems look on the inside. I'm German and I have a degree in history. Trust me, is you look behind the facade of the Third Reich, if you put way the courtain of all the propaganda about "German efficency", "fast and decisive action", bational unitty" and "unstoppable soldiers" you will find a bunch of weak pathetic men, sontantly stabbing each other in the back (sometimes literally) and squabbeling for power. For me the politics-part of WoT is in fact aout the opposite: Democracy (or at least a more egalitarian form of monarcy, because its still fantasy) in the end is the stronger system. It is just sooooo much harder to build and maintain. Rand in the beginning constaltly struggels with his friends and all of tehir inetrests, which are often understandable but really get in his way. And with all of the nations ist basically the same. But the good guy actually do it. They bite their teeth and they bargain. They learn about all these annoying cultures and values, they often heavily disagree with. And this makes their progress much slower, than the Shadow. But once it is built, it is also much stronger.
Richard, thank you for your passionate telling, and Austin, you get the best out of him telling his views! I really enjoy viewing this video´s, I´m sorry to hear this won´t continue
I'm a few months behind on this read through. It's my first read through of this series ever. (I'm also coming back from an 11 year reading hiatus) I'm enjoying the series. Though after this book I'm gonna take a break. Not a big reader though I'm trying to change that. I feel like an 8 year old learning video games with Dark Souls when I read this series.
Now that I’ve read them all, 4 is one of the better ones. The Battle of Emonds Field went from 60 to 0 though for me because as soon as Faile brought the reinforcements the battle ended abruptly. It’s like if the Rohirrim showed up at Pellenor and Theoden gives his speech and then we jump cut to Scruffy sweeping long dead orc corpses away. I concur Gathering Storm was probably my favorite.
I could’ve seen this coming based on earlier reviews, it’s okay not to like the wheel of time! I personally think it’s the best fantasy series ever written but it has some flaws that drive people crazy so I understand.
Austin I’m kinda in your boat; however, I’ve stuck with it and am on book 8. I’m here for the world building and because I want to be a part of the community overall.
Man, I just finished The Shadow Rising and jumped right into The Fires of Heaven and it starts out pretty strong. Sucks to see I probably wont get to hear your guys thoughts on that, I get it though. I feel like you maybe caught it at the wrong time, like you aren't vibing with the slow burn of the WoT
Love your guys channel! In terms of reviews I’d love to see, I know you mention the name of the wind quite a lot and I’d love to see that considering your differing opinions, as well as the assassin apprentice! The elderlings series is my fave
So many thoughts and feelings here. Come on Austin. Did you dislike Words of Radiance and Oathbringer because of the love triangle? Richard, you should just do reviews alone if he isn't enjoying the series.
Id agree with bigboy on this and I think from my POV - the message of the Wheel of Time is going for a critical message between men and women working together, with other themes of course, but I see this as a primary driver of the series - the relationship between men and women. While Stormlight is primarily about mental health (multiple personality disorder, redeeming oneself from guilt, suicide/depression) while the love triangle is hardly a drop in the bucket and didnt distract me from the main themes. Whereas in WOT it’s very distracting because it is the main purpose, in my opinion. And if the romance doesn’t connect, the story wont. And I see the romance as very superficial and am not invested. But hey - just my 2 cents
On the topic of men and women working together. I don't think the theme is fully realized in book 4. The platonic relationships between men and women, and the respect between the genders that grows through the series, is the full realization. The best relationships in WoT are the ones that allow freedom and trust. Characters have lives and duties outside of their loved one, and romantic relationships thrive when there is mutual respect.
I commend Austins perseverance in getting this far and completely understand him wanting to pull the plug, at least for the foreseeable anyway. There are too many good books out there and not enough time to read them all to be stuck reading something youre not enjoying.
The Wheel of Time and Game of Thrones, and a dash of Feist were my Teenage years. Fires of Heaven was my favorite but yeah reviewing it straight through us too tall of an ask. Also I love Matt if my profile shot didn’t give that away
Don't worry too much about it. I spent years reading untill I finished wheel of time. In between I read all of the cosmere, first law, wittcher and several other series. Its a good series to read a book, put it away, and then pick it back up once you hear it calling for you again
It may just be a generational or environmental thing. I grew up in a small town in the 80’s, a lot of these things are familiar to me. I’ve seen women and men with attitudes like these. Also, with Rand and his women, I’ve always felt like they were the splintered soul of his previous love.
If austin didn't enjoy book 4, he'd HATE book 5. I binged the first five books this year and i'm ready for a break too. I feel what you said about these books killing your reading momentum. Same here. I'll get back to book 6 in 3-4 months.
Yeah!🎉 ... 😂😂😂... It took me 12 years... the first 10 was books 1 through 5... I almost gave up at book 7... but listened to my cousin and gave it to Winter's Heart... then there was no stopping me... I threw in New Spring just before reading the final book... no regrets... The final battle made it all worth it... but so glad I had some Gwynne and Cahill going on because, The Faithful and The Fallen and The Bound and the Broken was just what I needed to keep me out of a epic fantasy reading funk. Just saying... I think I'm in the middle ground. I understand Austin's struggle... so much. But also appreciate why Richard holds this series in such esteem... but I won't be rereading.
Richard - I'm reading and reviewing one Wheel of Time book a month, just finished The Shadow Rising, would love for you to join my full spoiler discussion series with another booktuber!
Well it´s been an awesome journey and it makes me kinda sad that I´ll probably never watch a WOT podcast anytime soon but at the same time it´s absolutely understandable. I´m grateful to Austin´s patience with a series he didn´t like because if he hadn´t endured this many reviews I wouldn´t have met or followed you guys.
I am like Austin on this one, I don't like the series. BUT I am now on book... 8 maybe? Because I really want to know what the fuss is about ahah So I hope you continue with it eventually!
I also stopped reading WoT after book 4 about a year ago. I hated the first book, really liked books 2 and 3 and was meh/middle of the road on 4. I dunno why the series didn’t click with me, because It had everything I love about fantasy. Idk it was pacing or authors voice or what, But someday I really hope to finish them all. It’s just a really daunting task when there are so many and I don’t feel as invested as I do was most books. I commend Austin for getting thru 4 books tho! Tis no easy task
Funny enough, I'm quite enjoying the series reading alongside you guys, but somehow I'm still reading at a slower pace than Austin (just have a couple chapters left now) 😅 By the way, I agree that maybe going forward (if it happens) not using the audiobook could help. I tried it for a bit, and I found my attention kept wandering much more than just reading the book physically.
Yeah I’ve read 1-5 so far, like it a lot, and I’m reading it physically… I don’t think I would like it nearly as much if I was listening to the audiobooks.
Actually, I'm not watching this because I like WoT. I'm watching because I like Austin and Richard. 😁 But for the record, I fully agree with Austin on this one.
At the risk of becoming WoT fandom's enemy #1, it is so refreshing to hear someone share my opinions on WoT, Austin! At the end of the day, we don't all like the same cup of tea, but gaddam if it isn't nice to occasionally get some validation for your own perspective. 😂 I am currently in-between books 7 and 8 at the moment. Every now and then something happens that gives me hope, but overall I'm not optimistic about the rest of the series. I think maybe if I had started reading it 15 years ago, I might have found a lot of the things that now seem sort of dated and cliche more tolerable. I feel like it's the sort of series that would leave an impression on you and stick with you if it was your first foray into epic fantasy, but since that's not my experience with it, I'm really struggling to see why it's held in such high regard by so many fantasy fans. To its credit, it does have a fascinating magic system, but unfortunately my opinion of the worldbuilding crumbled a bit after watching Dune (no, I haven't read it yet, sue me). I think the characters are well fleshed-out, consistent, and mostly believable (albeit ridiculous), and we get arguably the most in-depth look into their differing perspectives that I've ever read in any book before. That being said, after a few books the character dynamics start to feel like watching a bad reality TV show on repeat (something that I've never actually done because the thought of it is torturous). I know some people who would find that endlessly entertaining, but for me, it stresses me out, and those little rewards when the characters finally come together in understanding are just not big enough or often enough to make up for it. I had really high hopes for the series when I started it, and in some ways those were met (magic system, -worldbuilding- ), but disappointingly I am not yet a fan.
Reading through this series was very strange (I just finished the last book a couple months ago), because I'm generally more of a reader like Austin, but I could see where Richard was coming from while reading this series. Generally when I'm thinking about Wheel of Time, my conclusion winds up being that it is the most important 5.5/10 series out there. It is so obvious how formative the series was to the fantasy genre and the strength it can have in literature, yet it is so dramatically flawed that at times it just straight hurts. For me, the bulk of my issue with Jordan's writing style comes with his pacing and timing. I genuinely think that you could get the entire series, all of its messages, the nuance, and the (intended) emotions, in 7-8 books instead of the 14 (technically 15) that the series wound up being. The best things about the worldbuilding that seems to have caught Richard when he was originally reading it could have still been in there, while still being more efficient and holding on to the attention of readers like Austin and me. Comparing fantasy series can be difficult, but if we think about the worldbuilding of the other big hitters of fantasy (I'm thinking Stormlight, ASOIAF, LOTR) and we think about how they were get their worldbuilding and messages across, with some of the most impressive worlds and themes in the Fantasy genre, and then we think about how long those series are, then I think that the flaw with Jordans writing could be a bit more understandable. When I got to this point in WOT, I was happy that the book finally felt much better to me, but it wound up being more of a "finally we're getting somewhere" than anything else, which felt great at the time, but in hindsight is not the kind of feeling I want to feel again when reading a series. It is strange to read books where the characters are moving forward and are changing, yet rarely feel like they are at the time. This made the series so difficult to read, since because of that the character arcs took forever, which considering how few POV characters there actually are in WOT and how long the series is, I genuinely thought was a major flaw with it. It was just so strange to experience a world so completely made, yet so badly paced as a story, at least for me. Apology comment for fans of the series coming forthwith.
New thought, I think Austin is taking the idea of men and women work best together and applying it exclusively to a romantic sense. Which is why the romance falls so flat. Every culture we’ve seen thus far has men and women almost at odds with each other where they undervalue the other’s contributions to pretty much everything. So at this point the idea is if we can do this much in conflict how much more can we do when we value others as much as we value our selves. Just my two cents.
To be frank, I love WoT but I didn't love book 4, I liked it more than the others. 5 and 6 are my favorites so far, best action and amazing character moments especially with Mat in book 5.. I'm only in book 9 right now so that could change.
@@LuzzyStef for sure. Richard would appreciate it for everything it has to offer and Austin will be on board with the hype moments and connect with the characters since there’s only two (?) viewpoints
See, i want something different from everyone else. Let austin read the next book and really review it, go in on what he doesnt like, give it a review kinda like they did with a court of thorns and roses, then have richard react to his pre recorded review. Best of both worlds.
Here’s my hot take: I’ve read the first four Wheel of Time books and The Shadow Rising is my least favorite so far. I still enjoyed it, but not as much as the first three.
@@2ToRamble I didn’t love the Nyneave chapters. I find that she’s degrading towards every character but herself. I will say that I started to get a glimpse of Nyneave that I enjoyed in the third book, but not afterwards. I thought the story with Suain was brilliant though.
34:24 Gotta say great discussion really enjoyed the dynamic! But I think Austin’s point about Men and Women working together is way too off. The series is not focused on the romantic side but more so on the platonic side and because of the taint on male channellers what has happened is that one particular side has gotten oppressed for thousands of years, which has caused the division between the two genders overall. This is further solidified by the way aes Sedai treat male channellers. Additionally when Perrin says, “You can’t understand them but you’ll love them anyways.” It does not automatically mean that she’s hot but they’ll frustrate you….. up until this point Perrin has had his entire family slaughtered and has no one left from his bloodline and THE FIRST person to comfort him is Faille which is where he developed his emotional attachment to her. Then after that she is the one who tells him you can either morn the dead or save the living which sets him on the trajectory to become a leader.(This is coming from a Faile hater btw 💀) Perrin saying to his cousin that quote is him saying no matter what the flaws are in the person there is always a good side and once you build a specific bond with the. It cannot be broken. There is a similar conversation that happens in A song of Ice and Fire where Cercy talks about how you will always love your children even if they are horrible people, because of the unconditional love a parent has for their child. This Perrin reacting the same way to his romantic counter part. But you will never see anyone criticize game of thrones for that, which I feel is unfair to the wheel of time. Sorry if I come off a bit overprotective to criticism but I feel as though when someone criticizes LOTR or Red Rising you have people who go hard to defend it and some of the things that are criticism for the wheel of time such as the repetition does not get criticized for Brandon Sanderson when he tells me what Furechemy is for the fifth time in mistborn. I just feel that people are not consistent with their complains where something is fine in one thing but is criticized in something else.
Appreciate the response - totally get it, and no problem at all for responding like this, that’s why we love doing book reviews, thanks for the point of view!
We use stars now! (Gets across our feelings of books better and rate things easier - hoping to explain in future videos why we think it works better for what we’re going for)
I only want to say three things: First the Tinkers are idiots, even when you know why are like that and more after read this book. Second I'm a little mad with Austin but I understand why didn't like it the book and honestly I hope that he can give it other chance at the future to this amazing history. And finally I have a question for Richard: What do you think about Cadsuane? (yes, I know there are still a few books left for her to appear).
I see her as what Moraine could have been had she not learned along the way in dealing with Rand. I like her character, but oof she can be agitating. She is also a great foil for nynaeve.
I commented on the last WoT video. I was like "it's up to you Austin, we'll watch regardless." But I'd honestly revise that. I didn't know what a reading slump was until I read Shadow Rising. It categorically made me less interested in fantasy. I think just because it's commonly heralded as one of the "definitive" epic fantasy books, and I was bored and uninterested throughout pretty much the whole thing. I was like "this is it? This is what people mean when they say they love fantasy?" I thought it was just a me problem though, so I kept reading. I stopped after Crown of Swords. That book is absolutely insufferable. I've been giving WoT the benefit of the doubt for months but I just straight up feel like it's poorly written at this point. At least inefficiently written, there are some pretty cool things here and there (every 500 pages or so). So yea, just drop it. Some books are for some people, others aren't. Don't feel bad, the WoT fans will survive.
@@2ToRamble howling dark review soon i hope! ☺ getting my lightbringer paperback in the mail on tuesday and reading warbreaker right now. so so good. happy reading to you both.
Austin, if you don’t like The Shadow Rising I highly doubt you’ll like the rest of the series. TSR is generally considered the best book in the series.
by who is it considered the best? Fires of Heaven, Lord of Chaos, Winters Heart, Book 11(forgot the name), Gathering Storm, and Memory of Light are all better. By my count, it's smack dab in the middle
I think the sexism of the series hasn’t aged well. I get it’s not real and it’s a fantasy world but when the characters are constantly going “ugh women” or “ugh men” it gets old
the problem is the series is too long and somewhat repetitive. I think everything pays off beautifully but people like austin might not make far enough to enjoy the payoff. i think most criticism austin has is addressed as the series goes on. its so frustrating hearing them and being like "but wait, in book 6... and then in book 8... how about in book 11" and so on. i think richard is thoroughly enjoying his re read because he knows what its all setting up and it excites him. Austin has none of that so it feels like more of a slog.
I love you too, Richard....❤ But honestly, I'm with you on a lot of these things, Austin. I still really like the series, but I have rarely ever been so frustrated with the characters as I have with WoT's. This might sound sexist, but every woman in this story besides Aviendha drives me up a wall. They're all so snappish and petty. Not that the men aren't, but I feel like the women are worse in that regard lol. And the romance is the most abysmal I've ever read (except Lan and Nynaeve's). It only gets worse too. I haven't read past book 5, but from what I understand, book 9 has the most teenage wish-fulfillment scene I've ever heard of. I definitely disagree with Richard on every POV being interesting. I love Rand's, liked Elayne's, was bored by Perrin's (though that was mostly because half of it was love issues with Faile), and disliked Mat's. And the funny thing with him is that I loved him in 3, but he just became a gambling womanizer in this one, and I just don't like that type of character, so I really didn't care for Mat here. And honestly, while I love the idea of the Tinkers and the Aiel being from the same people, I DESPISE the way it was presented. It was boring flashback after boring flashback centering on characters I didn't care about in a super long scene that I think could have been trimmed down. Again, I love the idea, but the way it was revealed dragged on for too long imo. However, I do have a lot of positives. This is my 2nd favorite WoT book out of the five I've read (well technically 4 1/2 since I DNF'd book 5 for a personal reason, but I'm planning to pick it back up again soon), and I loved the ending battle with the A-guy and Rand's convo with the creepy Forsaken chick (it's been a while lol). I loved seeing more of the Aiel, and they swiftly became my favorite fantasy culture. Aviendha was introduced, and she became of my favorite characters. Overall, I gave Shadow Rising 4 stars. Also, not sure if you guys are still planning to do First Law after this, but here's a couple suggestions for what to review next! Before you ask, yes, I'm being completely selfish by asking for my favorite stuff. 1. The Faithful and the Fallen by John Gwynne. This is my #3 series of all time, and I think it would be right up your alley, Austin. It's fast paced, packed with the best written action in fantasy, and tells a classic good vs evil story in a modern way with some if the most hatable villains ever! The big things here tho are the character arcs and trope subversions. Some characters start as ruffians, some as preteens, some as hapless bodyguards, but by the end, they have grown so much and you will love them all! The preteens become heros and gristled war veterans, the bodyguards become legends made in front of your eyes, and the ruffians become the most honorable men and steadfast companions. But here's the best part: we get the POVs of the villains too. Sometimes it makes us sympathize with them and sometimes we just hate them even more! And the way John Gwynne subverts tropes is better than I've ever seen! 2. Realm of the Elderlings by Robin Hobb. Sadness. Joy. Love. Hate. Betrayal so devastating it will tear a hole in your chest. Loyalty so strong it will make you cry while your heart soars with love and pride. No one writes emotion like Robin Hobb. Realm of the Elderlings is a deep character-driven series penned by the greatest fantasy author known to man. And I mean that. I love Sanderson and Gwynne, but Hobb is miles ahead of both. If you want the most nuanced characters in fantasy, read Robin Hobb. Just make sure you have a tissue box for when you sob and enough room for when you cheer.
It makes me sad that you talk about disliking characters and stuff. The romance stuff if that’s your thing gets better. Fail and Perrin perfectly balance. She is being what he needs. More subtle and political to his openness and braze.(spoiler free). The 3 women in Rands life are the three aspects of himself. Min loves the farm boy and grounds him. Elayne loves him as ruler. Regal and political. The 3rd(can’t remember if you’re there yet) loves the warrior. Skilled and focused. Disciplined and accepting of his responsibilities. Lan and nyneave and actually Matt and his story are two of the better ones I’ve read. “My husband rides for tarwins gap. Will he ride alone?” The characters in these books are some of the absolute BEST in all of fiction because they are human and act that way. They don’t know or have the perspective we have as readers and act on information(or misinformation) that they have. Austin, I get why you love characters like Kaladin and Dalinar because they have these big AHA moments that change everything but in reality that comes slowly and with mistakes. That gets better in book 3 or storm light as you watch their struggles and their dumb decisions. But by book 10 these will be moments you remember and it hurts me you don’t see the similarities between the two series and love both. WoT is more political and Stormlight has more action but they are so similarly good!! Hope someday you do finish them!
Also tbf when you say you’ve seen other stuff like this and it’s not special. Most of those books were written after and influenced by these books lol there’s Dune, LOTR, and the WOT. Maybe narnia. 😅 these are the OGs of fantasy
Thanks for the added perspective- maybe Ill return one day to the series, but definitely see why you like it. Hope i can eventually but its not for me (the current austin). Future austin might be crazy enough to like it lol
Rand telling the Aeil their past as pascifists is not self nor destroying them. They can choose not too come to resolution with truth, it's up to them.
Sorry but The Shadow Rising for a 1000+ page book barely anything happens. They don't even leave Tear until page 350 or something. Also I really dont understand why people love the Perrin stuff so much, as it bored me to hell. That whole plot was so basic and uninteresting. The ending and the Rhuidean stuff was the only saving grace for me.
Let's just accept that Austin does not like good literature, and be happy with the fact that he found Red Rising.
😂😂
I like how Austin encourages Richard to talk about the specifics that he loves even if he didn't connect with it in the same way. That's how you foster good discussion. Going to miss these - As a big WoT fan, I both enjoy people loving and hating the series. It's a weird thing.
I don''t think it's weird at all, I also like reading or watching negative reviews of media I love, it's good to get a different perspective in my opinion.
Richard, I think you know what you have to do. Lock Austin in your basement and only let him see his family once he finishes the series.
This is actually quite fair, all things considered
Would you turn Richard into Duolingo?!
Finally!!! Been waiting for this for so long.
Edit: Austin is now public enemy number 1
😁
An older video of yours popped up in my feed, and I gotta say, Richard is looking phenomenal. I’m not sure if it’s because he’s talking about wheel of time, he’s more comfortable on camera, or if it’s the weight loss, but he’s coming across as far happier and energetic. I’m happy to see that you two are thriving (or at least, appearing to be) with this podcast!
Hes doing great. Seriously health-wise and personal. Proud of him (in a non condescending way) (Or actually make it condescending bc screw him) hes doing awesome
I’d love to see richard just solo review the rest of the series or do the review with the alternate book tuber!
I was thinking the same thing. I love hearing Richard’s takes involving the series!!!
As much as personally I’d love that, I don’t want to see Andre and BigBoi move to opposite ends of the Country.
This is actually a good idea. I don’t think people should read books they don’t love. I have listened to the series all the way through twice since the pandemic and I didn’t love it as much the second time. I still really really love it, but it gets a bit too gender role specific at many points in the series. If you can get past this, and the generic ness of calling the bad guy the “dark one” it’s the best book ever written. 😊
I kind of like the contrast of their perspectives better than just having someone who loves the series.
YESSS, I’ve been waiting for this video since I found your channel and watched your other 3 WoT videos; so excited to hear you guys talks about this book, especially since I just finished reading it a couple weeks ago! 🎉
This video saved my marriage.
Your welcome
Yes! The Gathering Storm is my favorite and the series could have ended there. I mentioned to John@ Talking Story that when he decides to pick up the books again he should invite you on for discussion. He read the first 6 books before he created his channel and had no one to share it with. When you were discussing WOT on his channel I loved all your insights! A John & Richard WOT collaboration would be booktube heaven!
I would love to see Richard review the wheel of time books, on his own with someone I don’t mind please carry on 😢
The thing about the importance of men and women working together is that this book (and arguably the series) isn't supposed to be an example of how they can best work together, it's a cautionary tale of what happens when they don't.
And yeah, I would say that that is not the main theme or even one of the top 3.
This review reminded me why I love this book series! I’ve been on break from the series since reading The Shadow Rising because I wanted to finish the storm light archives, but I’m definitely reading the Fires of Heaven when I finish Rhythm of War!
Fires of heaven is great
Daniel Greene. Do a book by book review with Daniel Greene. From what I’ve seen he’s one of the biggest WOT UA-camrs and he is absolutely in love with the series I’m sure you all would have PLENTY to talk about
I was thinking the same thing! Having Daniel’s chaos mixed with these two would be hilariously entertaining
I feel like I remember @iangubeli saying he wanted to get around to WoT? He always has such a positive attitude and open mind, I think it’d be really fun to see him and Richard together!
Loving these reviews. I started reading Wheel of Time when I was a teenager and I've re-read the series maybe 4-5 times now. I definitely enjoy it for different reasons now as an adult.
I found out that a coworker also read the full series and it was the first time I ever met anyone IRL that read the WoT. We talked about it for days during our break time at work. It was so fun to have a discussion. Been loving you guys review it and its so interesting to have someone who has read the book vs. perspective of someone who has not.
So maybe malazan next? I've only read book 1 so far but it would be cool to read it alongside your reviews
If Austin couldnt finish wot i dont think he will with malazan
@@ivorv5063idk if it’s so much a matter of “he can’t” read wot and more he’s just not liking it. Malazan while deep and complicated does have a much different feel to it. I think if he could get hooked by it he’d like it
I'm not sure if this is still the case, but I know a while back they mentioned really wanting to do First Law by Joe Abercrombie. So that might be what's next. Just a heads up!
We may do this next as a long series! (But are going to tackle shorter series in the meantime)
@@2ToRamble Maybe go for the Earthsea books cause they are short reads
I started wheel of time and found you two at the same time. i finished Lord of Chaos for the first time this morning. review wheel of time with me
1:31:07 funny enough, I haven't read the wheel of time, I just like the banter between you two. :)
🙏🙏
Finally a book review of a book I’ve read! Lol 😂
1:28:00 I respectfully disagree. I would't say, that the hierarchy of the Dark One works good in any way. The Forsaken aren constantly throwing each other under the bus, struggeling for power. Which ist, interestingly, how most totalitarian systems look on the inside. I'm German and I have a degree in history. Trust me, is you look behind the facade of the Third Reich, if you put way the courtain of all the propaganda about "German efficency", "fast and decisive action", bational unitty" and "unstoppable soldiers" you will find a bunch of weak pathetic men, sontantly stabbing each other in the back (sometimes literally) and squabbeling for power.
For me the politics-part of WoT is in fact aout the opposite: Democracy (or at least a more egalitarian form of monarcy, because its still fantasy) in the end is the stronger system. It is just sooooo much harder to build and maintain. Rand in the beginning constaltly struggels with his friends and all of tehir inetrests, which are often understandable but really get in his way. And with all of the nations ist basically the same. But the good guy actually do it. They bite their teeth and they bargain. They learn about all these annoying cultures and values, they often heavily disagree with. And this makes their progress much slower, than the Shadow. But once it is built, it is also much stronger.
I had been waiting for this wayyyy toooo longg!!! Hope FOH doesn't take much time
They are not doing it
The pain I feel is immeasurable😭. Damn you Austin
Im sorry 😭😭 (maybe) 😈
I love how teh Aiel twisted the rule of "not take up arms" to become "not weild a sword"
Richard, thank you for your passionate telling, and Austin, you get the best out of him telling his views! I really enjoy viewing this video´s, I´m sorry to hear this won´t continue
I'm a few months behind on this read through. It's my first read through of this series ever. (I'm also coming back from an 11 year reading hiatus) I'm enjoying the series. Though after this book I'm gonna take a break. Not a big reader though I'm trying to change that. I feel like an 8 year old learning video games with Dark Souls when I read this series.
shadow rising is the pinnacle of fantasy literature.
absolutely not! one of the most overrated books i've ever read.
Now that I’ve read them all, 4 is one of the better ones.
The Battle of Emonds Field went from 60 to 0 though for me because as soon as Faile brought the reinforcements the battle ended abruptly. It’s like if the Rohirrim showed up at Pellenor and Theoden gives his speech and then we jump cut to Scruffy sweeping long dead orc corpses away.
I concur Gathering Storm was probably my favorite.
Also, this was the one where I planted my feet and decided to finish the series out of spite.
I could’ve seen this coming based on earlier reviews, it’s okay not to like the wheel of time! I personally think it’s the best fantasy series ever written but it has some flaws that drive people crazy so I understand.
Austin I’m kinda in your boat; however, I’ve stuck with it and am on book 8. I’m here for the world building and because I want to be a part of the community overall.
Man, I just finished The Shadow Rising and jumped right into The Fires of Heaven and it starts out pretty strong. Sucks to see I probably wont get to hear your guys thoughts on that, I get it though. I feel like you maybe caught it at the wrong time, like you aren't vibing with the slow burn of the WoT
Definitely could be the case. Maybe in the future theres a time where Ill enjoy it
Love your guys channel! In terms of reviews I’d love to see, I know you mention the name of the wind quite a lot and I’d love to see that considering your differing opinions, as well as the assassin apprentice! The elderlings series is my fave
My major major issue with wheel of time (it’s a minor inconvenience that irritates me) I just wish I was told who the pov is 😭😂😂
So many thoughts and feelings here.
Come on Austin. Did you dislike Words of Radiance and Oathbringer because of the love triangle?
Richard, you should just do reviews alone if he isn't enjoying the series.
It’s not the fact that’s it’s a love triangle, it’s a love triangle written by Robert Jordan, bro cannot write romance
Id agree with bigboy on this and I think from my POV - the message of the Wheel of Time is going for a critical message between men and women working together, with other themes of course, but I see this as a primary driver of the series - the relationship between men and women. While Stormlight is primarily about mental health (multiple personality disorder, redeeming oneself from guilt, suicide/depression) while the love triangle is hardly a drop in the bucket and didnt distract me from the main themes. Whereas in WOT it’s very distracting because it is the main purpose, in my opinion. And if the romance doesn’t connect, the story wont. And I see the romance as very superficial and am not invested. But hey - just my 2 cents
I think Richard could review the rest with Daniel Greene. He used to be one of the biggest Wheel of Time youtubers.
On the topic of men and women working together. I don't think the theme is fully realized in book 4. The platonic relationships between men and women, and the respect between the genders that grows through the series, is the full realization. The best relationships in WoT are the ones that allow freedom and trust. Characters have lives and duties outside of their loved one, and romantic relationships thrive when there is mutual respect.
I commend Austins perseverance in getting this far and completely understand him wanting to pull the plug, at least for the foreseeable anyway.
There are too many good books out there and not enough time to read them all to be stuck reading something youre not enjoying.
Thank you - exactly how Im looking at it, hoping to pick up a series ill love soon
I cant wait to see yall review Gardens of the Moon
Austin hurt me today I dont know if I could ever recover from hearing him say he didn't like this book it is my favorite book of all time!
Nooo! Sorry to disappoint - whats your second favorite, maybe we’ll agree there 😁
@@2ToRamble It's Words of Radiance I got into wheel of tie because I heard Sanderson finished it!
@@NolanRichardson-u7s Phew, we are back on track. Stormlight is top tier
The Wheel of Time and Game of Thrones, and a dash of Feist were my Teenage years. Fires of Heaven was my favorite but yeah reviewing it straight through us too tall of an ask. Also I love Matt if my profile shot didn’t give that away
Don't worry too much about it. I spent years reading untill I finished wheel of time. In between I read all of the cosmere, first law, wittcher and several other series. Its a good series to read a book, put it away, and then pick it back up once you hear it calling for you again
It may just be a generational or environmental thing. I grew up in a small town in the 80’s, a lot of these things are familiar to me. I’ve seen women and men with attitudes like these. Also, with Rand and his women, I’ve always felt like they were the splintered soul of his previous love.
If austin didn't enjoy book 4, he'd HATE book 5. I binged the first five books this year and i'm ready for a break too. I feel what you said about these books killing your reading momentum. Same here. I'll get back to book 6 in 3-4 months.
HONEY WAKE UP NEW 2TORAMBLE REVIEW!
WOOO
christmas came early between getting the episode ive been cyberbullying u guys for and the new taylor swift album ON THE SAME DAY :D
Well, I like one of those things lol. But thank you for cyberbullying Austin into submission! Best thing you could have done!
Still going through the series but book 4 & 5 is when the wheel of time started to click for me
Yeah!🎉
... 😂😂😂...
It took me 12 years... the first 10 was books 1 through 5... I almost gave up at book 7... but listened to my cousin and gave it to Winter's Heart... then there was no stopping me... I threw in New Spring just before reading the final book... no regrets... The final battle made it all worth it... but so glad I had some Gwynne and Cahill going on because, The Faithful and The Fallen and The Bound and the Broken was just what I needed to keep me out of a epic fantasy reading funk. Just saying... I think I'm in the middle ground. I understand Austin's struggle... so much. But also appreciate why Richard holds this series in such esteem... but I won't be rereading.
Finally, but Austin is being contrarian at this point 😂
perfect timing I just finished the book 😭😭😭 time to see Austin hate on this amazing piece of fiction
😁😁
Richard - I'm reading and reviewing one Wheel of Time book a month, just finished The Shadow Rising, would love for you to join my full spoiler discussion series with another booktuber!
Omg I swear I've been super expecting this. Once I finish watching I'll edit or comment this video!
Oh my God...
Well it´s been an awesome journey and it makes me kinda sad that I´ll probably never watch a WOT podcast anytime soon but at the same time it´s absolutely understandable.
I´m grateful to Austin´s patience with a series he didn´t like because if he hadn´t endured this many reviews I wouldn´t have met or followed you guys.
I am like Austin on this one, I don't like the series. BUT I am now on book... 8 maybe? Because I really want to know what the fuss is about ahah So I hope you continue with it eventually!
This is what I’ve been waiting for 😤
I also stopped reading WoT after book 4 about a year ago. I hated the first book, really liked books 2 and 3 and was meh/middle of the road on 4. I dunno why the series didn’t click with me, because It had everything I love about fantasy. Idk it was pacing or authors voice or what, But someday I really hope to finish them all. It’s just a really daunting task when there are so many and I don’t feel as invested as I do was most books. I commend Austin for getting thru 4 books tho! Tis no easy task
Maybe Austin try the audio books in a year or two
Funny enough, I'm quite enjoying the series reading alongside you guys, but somehow I'm still reading at a slower pace than Austin (just have a couple chapters left now) 😅 By the way, I agree that maybe going forward (if it happens) not using the audiobook could help. I tried it for a bit, and I found my attention kept wandering much more than just reading the book physically.
When are you guys gonna do The First Law trilogy?
That and Mistborn are the next upcoming series the channel will cover
Yeah I’ve read 1-5 so far, like it a lot, and I’m reading it physically… I don’t think I would like it nearly as much if I was listening to the audiobooks.
Finally got the review! You guys gotta work on the prose ratings, they're all over the place
what is the tablet thing Richard has in front of him on the table?
Hello from uk 🇬🇧 my first message to you both… liking ur videos a lot!! Just subscribed to ur channel.. happy reading to you both!! 😊
Thanks very much!!
Do you guys have a database of ratings and breakdowns for each book you have reviewed?
We dont yet but will once we get a rating site up and running!
Actually, I'm not watching this because I like WoT. I'm watching because I like Austin and Richard. 😁
But for the record, I fully agree with Austin on this one.
FINALLY AUSTIN I THOUGHT YOU GAVE UP
At the risk of becoming WoT fandom's enemy #1, it is so refreshing to hear someone share my opinions on WoT, Austin! At the end of the day, we don't all like the same cup of tea, but gaddam if it isn't nice to occasionally get some validation for your own perspective. 😂 I am currently in-between books 7 and 8 at the moment. Every now and then something happens that gives me hope, but overall I'm not optimistic about the rest of the series. I think maybe if I had started reading it 15 years ago, I might have found a lot of the things that now seem sort of dated and cliche more tolerable. I feel like it's the sort of series that would leave an impression on you and stick with you if it was your first foray into epic fantasy, but since that's not my experience with it, I'm really struggling to see why it's held in such high regard by so many fantasy fans. To its credit, it does have a fascinating magic system, but unfortunately my opinion of the worldbuilding crumbled a bit after watching Dune (no, I haven't read it yet, sue me). I think the characters are well fleshed-out, consistent, and mostly believable (albeit ridiculous), and we get arguably the most in-depth look into their differing perspectives that I've ever read in any book before. That being said, after a few books the character dynamics start to feel like watching a bad reality TV show on repeat (something that I've never actually done because the thought of it is torturous). I know some people who would find that endlessly entertaining, but for me, it stresses me out, and those little rewards when the characters finally come together in understanding are just not big enough or often enough to make up for it. I had really high hopes for the series when I started it, and in some ways those were met (magic system, -worldbuilding- ), but disappointingly I am not yet a fan.
Glad to validate you here! Definitely in the minority but theres some of us
Reading through this series was very strange (I just finished the last book a couple months ago), because I'm generally more of a reader like Austin, but I could see where Richard was coming from while reading this series. Generally when I'm thinking about Wheel of Time, my conclusion winds up being that it is the most important 5.5/10 series out there. It is so obvious how formative the series was to the fantasy genre and the strength it can have in literature, yet it is so dramatically flawed that at times it just straight hurts. For me, the bulk of my issue with Jordan's writing style comes with his pacing and timing. I genuinely think that you could get the entire series, all of its messages, the nuance, and the (intended) emotions, in 7-8 books instead of the 14 (technically 15) that the series wound up being. The best things about the worldbuilding that seems to have caught Richard when he was originally reading it could have still been in there, while still being more efficient and holding on to the attention of readers like Austin and me. Comparing fantasy series can be difficult, but if we think about the worldbuilding of the other big hitters of fantasy (I'm thinking Stormlight, ASOIAF, LOTR) and we think about how they were get their worldbuilding and messages across, with some of the most impressive worlds and themes in the Fantasy genre, and then we think about how long those series are, then I think that the flaw with Jordans writing could be a bit more understandable. When I got to this point in WOT, I was happy that the book finally felt much better to me, but it wound up being more of a "finally we're getting somewhere" than anything else, which felt great at the time, but in hindsight is not the kind of feeling I want to feel again when reading a series. It is strange to read books where the characters are moving forward and are changing, yet rarely feel like they are at the time. This made the series so difficult to read, since because of that the character arcs took forever, which considering how few POV characters there actually are in WOT and how long the series is, I genuinely thought was a major flaw with it. It was just so strange to experience a world so completely made, yet so badly paced as a story, at least for me.
Apology comment for fans of the series coming forthwith.
Great points here - curious what Richard thinks!
Listening to this is making me want to go back to WOT but I wasn’t a massive fan of the first 3…
really enjoy your dynamic
Thankyou!
New thought, I think Austin is taking the idea of men and women work best together and applying it exclusively to a romantic sense. Which is why the romance falls so flat. Every culture we’ve seen thus far has men and women almost at odds with each other where they undervalue the other’s contributions to pretty much everything. So at this point the idea is if we can do this much in conflict how much more can we do when we value others as much as we value our selves.
Just my two cents.
To be frank, I love WoT but I didn't love book 4, I liked it more than the others. 5 and 6 are my favorites so far, best action and amazing character moments especially with Mat in book 5.. I'm only in book 9 right now so that could change.
Oo I (austin) havent beard that take too much, Ive heard book 4 is peak. Thats insightful for me thankya
You guys gotta get to schythe it’s not such a long book
Austin would love scythe this is actually such a good recommendation
@@Sisyphaded I actually think Richard would like it to considering he likes sci fi more than Austin and it’s such a well rounded book
@@LuzzyStef for sure. Richard would appreciate it for everything it has to offer and Austin will be on board with the hype moments and connect with the characters since there’s only two (?) viewpoints
I love when they review bad books.
@@Zach64612 even better when they review an amazing book that’s why I recommended schythe 👌
I'm with you Austin. I don't get the hype. I wanted to love it though.
It took me a little over two years to do the entire series on audible. It was my favorite series until I started ASOIAF..
Too bad game of thrones will never be finished 😅😭
@@theirishman7792 so original!
Been waiting for this
My channel is tiny Richard but I’d love to talk WoT. It’s become my favorite series of all time and I’m always looking for an excuse for a reread
Sure, email or dm us and we can set up a time
See, i want something different from everyone else. Let austin read the next book and really review it, go in on what he doesnt like, give it a review kinda like they did with a court of thorns and roses, then have richard react to his pre recorded review. Best of both worlds.
Here’s my hot take:
I’ve read the first four Wheel of Time books and The Shadow Rising is my least favorite so far. I still enjoyed it, but not as much as the first three.
Oo. Whys that?
@@2ToRamble I didn’t love the Nyneave chapters. I find that she’s degrading towards every character but herself. I will say that I started to get a glimpse of Nyneave that I enjoyed in the third book, but not afterwards. I thought the story with Suain was brilliant though.
Are they continuing the series ?
34:24 Gotta say great discussion really enjoyed the dynamic! But I think Austin’s point about Men and Women working together is way too off. The series is not focused on the romantic side but more so on the platonic side and because of the taint on male channellers what has happened is that one particular side has gotten oppressed for thousands of years, which has caused the division between the two genders overall. This is further solidified by the way aes Sedai treat male channellers.
Additionally when Perrin says, “You can’t understand them but you’ll love them anyways.” It does not automatically mean that she’s hot but they’ll frustrate you….. up until this point Perrin has had his entire family slaughtered and has no one left from his bloodline and THE FIRST person to comfort him is Faille which is where he developed his emotional attachment to her. Then after that she is the one who tells him you can either morn the dead or save the living which sets him on the trajectory to become a leader.(This is coming from a Faile hater btw 💀) Perrin saying to his cousin that quote is him saying no matter what the flaws are in the person there is always a good side and once you build a specific bond with the. It cannot be broken.
There is a similar conversation that happens in A song of Ice and Fire where Cercy talks about how you will always love your children even if they are horrible people, because of the unconditional love a parent has for their child. This Perrin reacting the same way to his romantic counter part. But you will never see anyone criticize game of thrones for that, which I feel is unfair to the wheel of time.
Sorry if I come off a bit overprotective to criticism but I feel as though when someone criticizes LOTR or Red Rising you have people who go hard to defend it and some of the things that are criticism for the wheel of time such as the repetition does not get criticized for Brandon Sanderson when he tells me what Furechemy is for the fifth time in mistborn. I just feel that people are not consistent with their complains where something is fine in one thing but is criticized in something else.
Appreciate the response - totally get it, and no problem at all for responding like this, that’s why we love doing book reviews, thanks for the point of view!
Hey all did I miss something? When did they stop doing the number rating!?!?
We use stars now! (Gets across our feelings of books better and rate things easier - hoping to explain in future videos why we think it works better for what we’re going for)
Since when do you use stars not out of 10?
about time
I only want to say three things:
First the Tinkers are idiots, even when you know why are like that and more after read this book.
Second I'm a little mad with Austin but I understand why didn't like it the book and honestly I hope that he can give it other chance at the future to this amazing history.
And finally I have a question for Richard: What do you think about Cadsuane? (yes, I know there are still a few books left for her to appear).
I see her as what Moraine could have been had she not learned along the way in dealing with Rand. I like her character, but oof she can be agitating. She is also a great foil for nynaeve.
Democracy is cringe but it’s the least cringe option
We all knew he didnt like it from the gap between the book 3 and 4 reviews...
I commented on the last WoT video. I was like "it's up to you Austin, we'll watch regardless." But I'd honestly revise that. I didn't know what a reading slump was until I read Shadow Rising. It categorically made me less interested in fantasy. I think just because it's commonly heralded as one of the "definitive" epic fantasy books, and I was bored and uninterested throughout pretty much the whole thing. I was like "this is it? This is what people mean when they say they love fantasy?" I thought it was just a me problem though, so I kept reading. I stopped after Crown of Swords. That book is absolutely insufferable. I've been giving WoT the benefit of the doubt for months but I just straight up feel like it's poorly written at this point. At least inefficiently written, there are some pretty cool things here and there (every 500 pages or so). So yea, just drop it. Some books are for some people, others aren't. Don't feel bad, the WoT fans will survive.
I feel generally the same, it’s just not for me but hey, onto the next series!
@@2ToRamble howling dark review soon i hope! ☺ getting my lightbringer paperback in the mail on tuesday and reading warbreaker right now. so so good. happy reading to you both.
Finally!
Austin, if you don’t like The Shadow Rising I highly doubt you’ll like the rest of the series. TSR is generally considered the best book in the series.
Fair, definitely seems to be the case
by who is it considered the best? Fires of Heaven, Lord of Chaos, Winters Heart, Book 11(forgot the name), Gathering Storm, and Memory of Light are all better. By my count, it's smack dab in the middle
I stand with Austin! I did finish the entire series but I honestly didn’t enjoy any of it. It was a slog for me the whole way through.
Howd you finish/pull through!?
I think the sexism of the series hasn’t aged well. I get it’s not real and it’s a fantasy world but when the characters are constantly going “ugh women” or “ugh men” it gets old
Nah, I say it's age well. We still do those things now.
Real people say that stuff all the time.
Richard, cheat on that wheel hater, and I will cheat with you.
the problem is the series is too long and somewhat repetitive. I think everything pays off beautifully but people like austin might not make far enough to enjoy the payoff. i think most criticism austin has is addressed as the series goes on. its so frustrating hearing them and being like "but wait, in book 6... and then in book 8... how about in book 11" and so on. i think richard is thoroughly enjoying his re read because he knows what its all setting up and it excites him. Austin has none of that so it feels like more of a slog.
Well said!
I love you too, Richard....❤
But honestly, I'm with you on a lot of these things, Austin. I still really like the series, but I have rarely ever been so frustrated with the characters as I have with WoT's. This might sound sexist, but every woman in this story besides Aviendha drives me up a wall. They're all so snappish and petty. Not that the men aren't, but I feel like the women are worse in that regard lol. And the romance is the most abysmal I've ever read (except Lan and Nynaeve's). It only gets worse too. I haven't read past book 5, but from what I understand, book 9 has the most teenage wish-fulfillment scene I've ever heard of. I definitely disagree with Richard on every POV being interesting. I love Rand's, liked Elayne's, was bored by Perrin's (though that was mostly because half of it was love issues with Faile), and disliked Mat's. And the funny thing with him is that I loved him in 3, but he just became a gambling womanizer in this one, and I just don't like that type of character, so I really didn't care for Mat here. And honestly, while I love the idea of the Tinkers and the Aiel being from the same people, I DESPISE the way it was presented. It was boring flashback after boring flashback centering on characters I didn't care about in a super long scene that I think could have been trimmed down. Again, I love the idea, but the way it was revealed dragged on for too long imo.
However, I do have a lot of positives. This is my 2nd favorite WoT book out of the five I've read (well technically 4 1/2 since I DNF'd book 5 for a personal reason, but I'm planning to pick it back up again soon), and I loved the ending battle with the A-guy and Rand's convo with the creepy Forsaken chick (it's been a while lol). I loved seeing more of the Aiel, and they swiftly became my favorite fantasy culture. Aviendha was introduced, and she became of my favorite characters.
Overall, I gave Shadow Rising 4 stars.
Also, not sure if you guys are still planning to do First Law after this, but here's a couple suggestions for what to review next! Before you ask, yes, I'm being completely selfish by asking for my favorite stuff.
1. The Faithful and the Fallen by John Gwynne. This is my #3 series of all time, and I think it would be right up your alley, Austin. It's fast paced, packed with the best written action in fantasy, and tells a classic good vs evil story in a modern way with some if the most hatable villains ever! The big things here tho are the character arcs and trope subversions. Some characters start as ruffians, some as preteens, some as hapless bodyguards, but by the end, they have grown so much and you will love them all! The preteens become heros and gristled war veterans, the bodyguards become legends made in front of your eyes, and the ruffians become the most honorable men and steadfast companions. But here's the best part: we get the POVs of the villains too. Sometimes it makes us sympathize with them and sometimes we just hate them even more! And the way John Gwynne subverts tropes is better than I've ever seen!
2. Realm of the Elderlings by Robin Hobb. Sadness. Joy. Love. Hate. Betrayal so devastating it will tear a hole in your chest. Loyalty so strong it will make you cry while your heart soars with love and pride. No one writes emotion like Robin Hobb. Realm of the Elderlings is a deep character-driven series penned by the greatest fantasy author known to man. And I mean that. I love Sanderson and Gwynne, but Hobb is miles ahead of both. If you want the most nuanced characters in fantasy, read Robin Hobb. Just make sure you have a tissue box for when you sob and enough room for when you cheer.
Definitely see your POV and how you got bits from both of us to agree and disagree with! And both Gwynne and Hobb’s series will absolutely be read !
It makes me sad that you talk about disliking characters and stuff. The romance stuff if that’s your thing gets better. Fail and Perrin perfectly balance. She is being what he needs. More subtle and political to his openness and braze.(spoiler free). The 3 women in Rands life are the three aspects of himself. Min loves the farm boy and grounds him. Elayne loves him as ruler. Regal and political. The 3rd(can’t remember if you’re there yet) loves the warrior. Skilled and focused. Disciplined and accepting of his responsibilities. Lan and nyneave and actually Matt and his story are two of the better ones I’ve read. “My husband rides for tarwins gap. Will he ride alone?” The characters in these books are some of the absolute BEST in all of fiction because they are human and act that way. They don’t know or have the perspective we have as readers and act on information(or misinformation) that they have. Austin, I get why you love characters like Kaladin and Dalinar because they have these big AHA moments that change everything but in reality that comes slowly and with mistakes. That gets better in book 3 or storm light as you watch their struggles and their dumb decisions. But by book 10 these will be moments you remember and it hurts me you don’t see the similarities between the two series and love both. WoT is more political and Stormlight has more action but they are so similarly good!! Hope someday you do finish them!
Also tbf when you say you’ve seen other stuff like this and it’s not special. Most of those books were written after and influenced by these books lol there’s Dune, LOTR, and the WOT. Maybe narnia. 😅 these are the OGs of fantasy
Thanks for the added perspective- maybe Ill return one day to the series, but definitely see why you like it. Hope i can eventually but its not for me (the current austin). Future austin might be crazy enough to like it lol
Rand telling the Aeil their past as pascifists is not self nor destroying them. They can choose not too come to resolution with truth, it's up to them.
Sorry but The Shadow Rising for a 1000+ page book barely anything happens. They don't even leave Tear until page 350 or something. Also I really dont understand why people love the Perrin stuff so much, as it bored me to hell. That whole plot was so basic and uninteresting. The ending and the Rhuidean stuff was the only saving grace for me.
I only trust the bald one from now on 🤷🏼♂️
At least I cant let you down now 😂
take your time but continue please
ANOTHER COTAR REVIEW?????
I'm with you Austin I can't stand Wheel of Time and dropped it at book 3. Love to see if you guys would give Malazan book of the Fallen a go.
Im not alone! And hell yea we will tackle that one day
I DNFd wheel of time on book 5. No more of this nonsense!