To be fair, most people I know who discuss the Reformation are fully aware of the initial Reformists desire to improve the church, and not to start new ones.
JayVal90 Exactly! And ironicaly the Churchs Conter-Reform actualy reformed some of it's institutions and corrected the corruption inside itself which Martin Luther critized!
E Migs So no disparaging mention of the "roman church"? I thought so. Glad you're in agreement with Catholic doctrine on that point, even Knowles has pointed out in the show how salvation through works has been considered a heresy since about 1000 years before Luther ever existed.
Michael, I'd have to compliment you on being willing to see the facts, instead of only believing in propaganda, even when it challenges your original views. I haven't read it yet, and I know I'll learn some things I didn't know before, but his original intent was taught in my history class. Just as my understanding on indulgences was incorrect.
Read the Bible for yourself, often and repeatedly , and extremely prayerfully. Pray very sincerely for your eyes to be opened to anything you're believing or understanding ( or applying ) awry. Even if you're sure you're not ( probably esp. then ! ) . Keep a healthfully open mind in the back of your mind, as you continue to do this throughout your life. Please. Please always do MORE humbly speaking with God about stuff than studying, debating, thinking or researching, reading etc. . They have their place, but spend MORE time out of your own or other's heads and more time in heart-felt prayer with the Father, in Jesus, by the Spirit.
Rome keeps rather quiet about the fact that the early Church fathers were divided into 3 groups of interpretation over this verse; One (the majority) said the Rock was Christ; "upon THIS Rock, Peter, I will build MY church". This would tie in with ALL the OT references to God, himself as the Rock - too many to list! Another group said it was the great declaration that Christ is "the Son of the Living God" - that FAITH/Doctrine is the Rock on which the Church is built. A third group (the minority), suggested it might refer to the Apostle Peter himself, since he was the one who preached that initial sermon in Acts Ch2 which "launched" the Church into public declaration. This would be despite the fact that it is evident in the Book of Acts & references in Paul's epistles, that Peter was certainly NOT in charge of the NT Church! Nor was there any office of Papacy even around until centuries later as Constantine influenced pagan ideas & a hierarchical attitudes to power. Nor could there BE a Papacy amongst those who took Matthew 23:9 seriously! It just means "Father" - the very LAST term Christians would prefer to use for a Church "office". So, yes, despite Papal attempts to crush Christians & supress Scripture, the powers of Hell have NOT managed to prevail against Christ & his dear children, his living Church (of many denominations)! Our Rock remains solid.
Martin Luther's heart was oh so filled with godly love and shone with such pure mercy...: ''“set fire to their synagogues or schools and bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn”, “their houses also be razed and destroyed'', ''they must be driven from our country…like mad dogs''... sounds familiar? ( _Martin Luther, On the Jews and Their Lies, ed. Helmut T. Lehmann, trans. Martin H. Bertram, vol. 47_ ) What a great human being, what an example for all Chistians to follow
The old "anti-semitism" accusation is best answered by this (see link); ua-cam.com/video/B-7OiA-G3hA/v-deo.html "Was Luther guilty of Ant--Semitism?" It is the Jewish religion's rejection of the Messiah which Luther hated, NOT the Jew as a race. Unfortunately we use the same word for both race & religion. Hitler wanted the Jewish race exterminated. Luther wanted the Jewish race rescued from legalistic religion. That does NOT excuse his fierce language & that should be repudiated, much like the Papacy's violent language against gypsies, Jews, & just-anyone-who-translated -the-Bible for everyone, should ALSO be rejected. Of course, the Papal claim to "represent upon this earth the place of God Almighty" (as one Pope put it), is completely demolished by it's own behaviour. If Luther makes a mistake it is just another fallible person who is making no such fatuous claim. This is a VERY significant difference! No-one is building their faith on "Lutheran Infallibility", our job is to test what he (or anyone) says by the Scripture. We can only DO that, of course, because he had the courage to reckon the distribution of God's Word as more important than bowing to the violent suppression of the Vatican-Mafia. Rome would have killed him if they could, like Jan Huss before him, under the Pope's "Safe passage" promise!
A lot of people don't realize that the Nazis hatred of Jews stemmed from Martin Luther. Martin Luther is no one to look up to, thanks for sharing this quote of his
@@jd3jefferson556 A lot of people don't realize that the Nazis hatred of Jews stemmed from centuries of anti-Semitism & pogroms and a history of persecution of Jews, by Roman Catholic & other sources. In old age Martin Luther wld sometimes default to these attitudes which is a terrific shame & not to be commended by anyone. In MANY other respects Martin Luther (like many fallible humans), had a terrific amount we can look up to.
@@michaelbrittain7445 aaah and yet we are following a FALLIBLE MAN....maybe he could be wrong with so many things !!!!! yet we follow him....what an irony.
Correct, but God does weave many *seemingly* different things into His pre-planned "plan a". But I've got to agree with you, the best we can hope for in that statement is poor wording on his part.
Sure Luther realized that the offer of salvation is a free gift available to all who believe. Only problem is, he believed God determined who would believe and who wouldn't believe. He was a hard determinist who took the Catholic indulgences and other liberal, performance(works) based heresies to the other extreme.
@Wang Chung " Only problem is, he believed God determined who would believe and who wouldn't believe" Source? I believe you are confusing Luther with Calvin.
Papacy is unbiblical! Otherwise , the apostoles would have said something about it ...even once! They talked about deacons and other leading positions within a church; and yet , they somehow forgot to mention about establishing a papacy?
They pretty clearly saw the authority Christ gave to Peter. Even John didn't enter His Tomb, even though he got there before Peter, John let Peter enter the tomb first. Also changing his name to rock and upon this rock He built His Church, while also giving Peter the keys to the Kingdom, is pretty obvious! Anyway, God bless, we have to follow authority and be united as 1 people of God.
@@jd3jefferson556 Peter evangelized the Jews; if anything the role that Catholic Church assigned to Peter would have been given to Paul, since he was the one to spread the Gospel among the gentiles. Don't be misled: THERE IS ONLY ONE ROCK IN THE ENTIRE BIBLE. And it's YESHUA! Not Peter. Read it in context. Check how many times the Bible states that Jesus Christ is our rock and refuge. Peter can't be it. God bless!
We Catholics read the Bible. Read Luke 12 44-48. Jesus talks about 4 different outcomes. The SERVANTS who disobeyed were either punished severely or lightly according to their level of disobedience. (Purgatory. ) The SERVANT cut in 2 in thrown if fire is damned. Obviously, the church fathers and scholars from 2000 years ago are smarter than you!
Since I have not read Eric Metaxas' Martin Luther: The Man Who Rediscovered God and Changed the World, does he cover the following in his book? 1. That on his own authority in his German transcription of the Bible, Martin Luther added the word ALONE (Allein) to Romans 3:28 to read, "For we hold that a man is justified by faith ALONE (Allein)" to justify his doctrine of Sola Fide, i.e., Justification by Faith Alone. [Michael Davies, Cranmer's Godly Order (Ft. Collins, Colorado, 1995), p.25.] 2. That he wrote the following regarding his addition of the word ALONE (Allein) to Romans 3:28: "If your papist worries you about the word 'alone', just tell him plainly that Dr. Martin Luther will have it so, and says: 'Papist and donkey are one and the same thing; sic volo, sic jubeo, stat pro ratione voluntas.' For we must not be the pupils or disciples of the papists, but on the contrary their masters and judges. We ought to swagger and hammer on their donkey-heads, and, as Paul challenged the sanctimonious fools of his day, so I will also challenge these donkeys of mine." [G.W. Bromiley, Thomas Cranmer Theologian (London, 1956), p.36.] 3. That in addition to the above concerning Romans 3:28, Luther also wrote: "I am sorry now that I did not add the word 'all' so that it would read 'without all works of all laws', and thus ring out loudly and completely. However, it shall stand as it is in my New Testament, and though all the Papist-donkeys go mad about it, they shall not move me from this." [A. Hilliard Atteridge, Martin Luther (London, 1940), pp.19-20.] 4. That although subsequent German translations removed the word ALONE (Allein) from Romans 3:28 to accurately transmit in German what St. Paul originally wrote, Luther steadfastly held on to the doctrine of Sola Fide derived from his additional word, which then was adopted by the major 16th century Protestant Reformers who initiated organizations that continue on to the present day and which include: (A) John Calvin (Reformed) in his Institutes of the Christian Religion, (B) Thomas Cranmer (Church of England/Anglicanism) in No. VIII of 39 Articles in his Book of Common Prayer, and (C) Calvin's student John Knox (Presbyterianism) in his writings and homilies. 5. That in 1537 Martin Luther composed his Smalcald Articles that include his teaching that the Pope, the Catholic Bishop of Rome is the Antichrist (In 1580 these articles were added to the Book of Concord, which is considered authoritative in Lutheranism). 6. That this teaching of Luther's of the Pope as Antichrist was subsequently adopted by all of the 16th century Protestant Reformers which include: (A) John Calvin, specifically in Book IV of his Institutes of the Christian Religion; (B) Thomas Cranmer in his works, and (C) John Knox most vehemently in his writings and homilies. Later in the 17th century, this teaching of the Pope as Antichrist was adopted by free-lance Anglican clergyman John Wesley, founder of Methodism. 7. That in 1543 Martin Luther composed his On The Jews and Their Lies, the content of which is so inflammatory and incendiary that its contents should not be quoted in social media in light of what happened to German Jewry, particularly in the 20th century. 8. That one year before his death in 1546, Martin Luther published his final written testament where he personally addressed the Pope, the Catholic Bishop of Rome with these words: "I would not dream of judging or punishing you, except to say that you were born from the behind of the devil, are full of devils, lies, blasphemy, and idolatry; are the instigator of these things, God’s enemy, Antichrist, desolater of Christendom, and steward of Sodom." [From Against the Roman Papacy, an Institution of the Devil, pg. 363 of Luther’s Works, Vol. 41] 9. To be fair to Martin Luther, I have to consider the possibility that in these two above mentioned works published a few years before his death, (A) On The Jews and Their Lies and (B) Against the Roman Papacy, an Institutes of the Devil, he was suffering from some form of dementia that may have been induced by his voluminous intake of alcohol in the forms of beer and wine. 10. Is the possibility of No. 9 included in Eric Metaxas' biography of Martin Luther?
Maybe you should read the book and find out : all your points are typical Catholic Polemics against Martin Luther. I am sure we can find some very bad things about the Popes too. God used imperfect men and women in both the Old Testament and in the Church Age.
@@davidjanbaz7728 1. The book's title indicated a whitewash of Luther that I thought needed some balancing. 2. I refrained from mentioning how Luther sided with the nobility in their slaughtering of the peasants in 1524-25 when writing his Against the Murderous, Thieving Hordes of Peasants because their interpretation of the Bible disagreed with his. 3. I refrained from mentioning the fate of Fritz Erbe who suffered dungeon imprisonment until death at the hands of Luther for the crime of not baptizing his children. I applaud the Reformed Baptist Dr. James White for producing an insightful four minute video available on youtube titled Fritz Erbe: The Reformation Figure You've Never Heard Of | Dr. James R. White. 4. Do you have any problems with my quoting Dr. Luther? 5. I gave Luther the benefit of the doubt for his final two published works, stating that they were written while he was afflicted with dementia. 6. I would tremble for the state of Martin Luther's soul for publishing his 1543 Against The Jews And Their Lies and his 1545 Against The Papacy, An Institution of The Devil if I thought he had coldly and deliberately written them in his right mind. 7. I refrained from mentioning that Erix Metaxas' book most likely completely omitted how since after the Holocaust/World War II, Lutheran bodies in Germany and worldwide have distanced themselves from Martin Luther's antisemitism and apologized for his writings.
@@annakimborahpa While Luther's treatment of "Anabaptists" etc is certainly a good ground for criticism, the old "anti-semitism" accusation is best answered by this (see link); ua-cam.com/video/B-7OiA-G3hA/v-deo.html "Was Luther guilty of Ant--Semitism?" It is the Jewish religion's rejection of the Messiah which Luther hated, NOT the Jew as a race. Unfortunately we use the same word for both race & religion. Hitler wanted the Jewish race exterminated. Luther wanted the Jewish race rescued from legalistic religion. That does NOT excuse his fierce language & that should be repudiated, much like the Papacy's violent language against gypsies, Jews, & just-anyone-who-translated -the-Bible for everyone, should ALSO be rejected. Of course, the Papal claim to "represent upon this earth the place of God Almighty" (as one Pope put it), is completely demolished by it's own behaviour. If Luther makes a mistake it is just another fallible person who is making no such fatuous claim. This is a VERY significant difference! No-one is building their faith on "Lutheran Infallibility", our job is to test what he (or anyone) says by the Scripture. We can only DO that, of course, because he had the courage to reckon the distribution of God's Word as more important than bowing to the violent suppression of the Vatican-Mafia. Rome would have killed him if they could, like Jan Huss before him, under the Pope's "Safe passage" promise! The colourful language of written debate in those times - from BOTH sides - tends to surprise us these days. The Papist descriptions of Luther are just as "OTT", so have you been trembling for their souls as well? Be fair. As a teenager I heard & saw an Indulgence being sold at a Mass during Pope JP II's term of office, & had to ask the (specially sent) priest if I had misunderstood him. It turns out I hadn't. Your points about Luther initially adding the word "alone" to Romans 3:28 then REMOVING it, (but believing that this is still very much the point of that passage) does nothing to refute his interpretation, of course. This point is made by Scripture in other places with or without that word. Christian believers who have never read Luther, have been coming to the same conclusion for centuries! The point is that Christ's merits do not need the helpful addition of my own "goodnesses". Still true. Likewise, the similarity of the Papal Institution to the Anti-Christ as described in 2 Thessalonians & elsewhere is hard to avoid. You don't need Luther to spot that! I might "tremble for the soul" of this pompous Italian institution & the shocking & filthy immorality of Popes (which I first encountered during my time studying history at a Catholic College). The various Popes behaviours during this time are "most likely omitted" by you for completely unbiased reasons, of course! The obscene & laughable doctrine of "The Supererogatory Merits of the Saints", & the Pope having access to this "storehouse of merit" lies behind the Indulgences racket. This is still official RC doctrine. I was brought up under this nonsense. I thank God for Martin Luther, (warts an' all)!
Always find it surprising at the level of belief that religious people are capable of no matter which religion they follow Always have found it surprising that these same people are not all lefties
Not a very meaningful contribution. All people are capable of sincerely and deeply being wrong, including atheists, though atheists have done far more damage to the world than religious people ever have.
*The Bible was always clear about Who the Rock was. The Rock upon which the Church is built. It was never an imperfect man called Peter. It was Jesus Christ Himself, He who was sinless* 1. and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that Rock was Christ. 1 Corinthians 10:4 NIV 2.. “The Lord lives! Praise be to my Rock! Exalted be my God, the Rock, my Savior! 2 Samuel 22:47 NIV 3. Be my rock of refuge, to which I can always go; give the command to save me, for you are my rock and my fortress. Psalms 71:3 NIV 4. You deserted the Rock, who fathered you; you forgot the God who gave you birth. Deuteronomy 32:18 NIV 5. He said: “The Lord is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer; 2 Samuel 22:2 NIV 6. For who is God besides the Lord? And who is the Rock except our God? Psalms 18:31 NIV 7. For who is God besides the Lord? And who is the Rock except our God? 2 Samuel 22:32 NIV (Same verse repeated in Pslams 8. The Lord lives! Praise be to my Rock! Exalted be God my Savior! Psalms 18:46 NIV 9. They remembered that God was their Rock, that God Most High was their Redeemer. Psalms 78:35 NIV 10. He will call out to me, ‘You are my Father, my God, the Rock my Savior.’ Psalms 89:26 NIV 11. proclaiming, “The Lord is upright; he is my Rock, and there is no wickedness in him.” Psalms 92:15 NIV 12. Trust in the Lord forever, for the Lord, the Lord himself, is the Rock eternal. Isaiah 26:4 NIV 13. The Lord is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer; my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge, my shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold. Psalms 18:2 NIV 14. Since you are my rock and my fortress, for the sake of your name lead and guide me. Psalms 31:3 NIV 15. Come, let us sing for joy to the Lord; let us shout aloud to the Rock of our salvation. Psalms 95:1 NIV 16. “There is no one holy like the Lord; there is no one besides you; there is no Rock like our God. 1 Samuel 2:2 NIV 17. From the ends of the earth I call to you, I call as my heart grows faint; lead me to the rock that is higher than I. For you have been my refuge, a strong tower against the foe. I long to dwell in your tent forever and take refuge in the shelter of your wings. For you, God, have heard my vows; you have given me the heritage of those who fear your name. Psalms 61:2-5 NIV And there is more.
19 So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, Ephesians 2:19-20 Jesus is still the cornerstone that the church was built on
One thing does not invalidate the other, protestants have this notion that its either/or, yes Christ Our Lord is the rock, but Simon Peter can and does have a role to play.
Church history is not taught nor is it understood by most believers; therefor topics like this come up with much ignorance. Martin Luther wasn't against the Catholic church. He was vehemently against the Pope though! Sadly, none of it matters because he never got far enough in the doctrine to figure out the mystery given to Paul. But Luther certainly propelled it on the back end of others before him. He was so focused on the book of Revelation, like most Christians sadly get trapped in today, and NEVER learn the Revelation of the Mystery given ONLY to the apostle Paul. That's the thing that God actually wants Christians to understand (maybe about 5-10% of all Christians. Maybe). That's the real mystery. Revelation is a book revealing a future time period, but has nothing to do with the body of Christ. This is what Martin and many have missed, but it would not be possible today to be where Mid Acts Pauline truth is at today without Martin Luther. In fact, Pauline Christians have always been the ones who do God's will (certainly not perfectly. I mean 2k years common Church!), because they understand the fellowship of the mystery to some capacity. They were killed for thousands of years. But God only wise, the King James bible opened the floodgates of truth and the world has been in a whirl spin ever since. One day, you guys will get your wish and we will be raptured out of here. And all of that vanity is going to come to a reality real quick when you realize what you just missed. If you even get it then? Many will believe the delusion in that day. Even your own flesh and blood will turn their back on you. What a time. Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. What hidden wisdom did God keep secret that would of made Satan not crucify Christ? Can you answer. It can only be found in Paul's epistles. Everything else is revealed and known about. Satan knows that bible better than you know your name. Yet God said the information he gave Paul defeated Satan and was hidden Eph 3.1-10, Col 1.25-26. How so? Martin Luther never found the answer to that verse in his life. Don't let the wiles of the Devil take your reward. Paul is very clear on that issue.
What are you saying? Gods word is available to all, it’s not a mystery. The word “rock” does not refer to the Catholic Church or sect. What I am missing? You making Christianity impossible.
@@mjramirez6008 THAT old chestnut!? There are LOADS of RC "denominations"! 😀 Every time someone tried to reform that Italian racket, the Papacy would just subsume them into the Great System. They would be allowed to practice their alternative version of how to live the Christian life PROVIDED they submitted to the great Pontiff! They are called "Orders" instead of denominations, of course! None of them agree, & all practice divergent ideas. "Denominations" are all in basic agreement in Protestant circles; compare the Confessions of Faith of Presbyterians, Baptists, Independents, Anglicans etc from the Savoy Declaration to the 39 Articles or the Westminster Confession of Faith. The differences tend to be minor questions, such as "How should individual congregations organise themselves?" to "How much water is needed for a baptism" etc This is why Christian denominations work together so often & have been doing for many, many years. The wonderful freedom to associate in these groups was opposed, of course, by the Vatican Mafia to whom all non-conformity to it's "Baptised-paganism" was considered an affront worthy of death. 10,000 is an exaggeration, of course, but the alternative of Italian Sacerdotalist Oppression is hardly a better alternative! God has blessed his denominations!
Matthew 16:24 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “If anyone wants to follow after me, let him deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me. 25 For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life because of me will find it. 26 For what will it benefit someone if he gains the whole world yet loses his life? Or what will anyone give in exchange for his life? 27 For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will reward each according to what he has done.” Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in your name, drive out demons in your name, and do many miracles in your name?' 23 Then I will announce to them, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you lawbreakers! ’ Luke 6:46 “Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and don’t do the things I say? 47 I will show you what someone is like who comes to me, hears my words, and acts on them: 48 He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. When the flood came, the river crashed against that house and couldn't shake it, because it was well built. 49 But the one who hears and does not act is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. The river crashed against it, and immediately it collapsed. And the destruction of that house was great.” Romans 6:16 Don’t you know that if you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of that one you obey-either of sin leading to death or of obedience leading to righteousness?
James 2:24 "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." ''as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also'' ''Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith *by* my works.''
@@michaelharrington6698 AMEN! As a Protestant, of course, I agree with all of the above. TRUE faith will show itself in our life & behaviour. Any life which contradicts Christ's values indicates that it's profession of faith is false. "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." Ephesians 2:8-10 "It is faith alone that justifies, but the faith that justifies is never alone." John Calvin "The true, living faith which the Holy Spirit instils into the heart, simply cannot be idle." Martin Luther. "The only saving faith is following faith." Richard Glover.
If it sounds too good to be true then it probably is. Faith alone is a lie from the devil, shoot the devil not only believes but knows Jesus is God, so clearly Faith alone is not enough. Even the act of maintaining your faith threwout your lifetime is a work in itself.
@@mjramirez6008 that doesn't disprove that we are given eternal live by salvation and not works. It just says what we should do not that they are necessary for our salvation.
Watch full episode here: ua-cam.com/video/kioq7qmspjY/v-deo.html
To be fair, most people I know who discuss the Reformation are fully aware of the initial Reformists desire to improve the church, and not to start new ones.
JayVal90
Agreed, "desire" being the key word here.
JayVal90 Exactly! And ironicaly the Churchs Conter-Reform actualy reformed some of it's institutions and corrected the corruption inside itself which Martin Luther critized!
E Migs
Where is that in the Bible?
E Migs
So no disparaging mention of the "roman church"? I thought so.
Glad you're in agreement with Catholic doctrine on that point, even Knowles has pointed out in the show how salvation through works has been considered a heresy since about 1000 years before Luther ever existed.
"The body's a temple and a temple needs incense"
Ya I'm stealing that
Is Knowles talking to an older version of himself?
Exploring My Shadow 😂😂😂 Hilarious.
"Because the Body is a temple and the Temple needs incense"... that got me😁
Got to love both of these guys. Metaxas is one my favorite authors!
Michael, I'd have to compliment you on being willing to see the facts, instead of only believing in propaganda, even when it challenges your original views. I haven't read it yet, and I know I'll learn some things I didn't know before, but his original intent was taught in my history class.
Just as my understanding on indulgences was incorrect.
Read the Bible for yourself, often and repeatedly , and extremely prayerfully. Pray very sincerely for your eyes to be opened to anything you're believing or understanding ( or applying ) awry. Even if you're sure you're not ( probably esp. then ! ) . Keep a healthfully open mind in the back of your mind, as you continue to do this throughout your life. Please. Please always do MORE humbly speaking with God about stuff than studying, debating, thinking or researching, reading etc. . They have their place, but spend MORE time out of your own or other's heads and more time in heart-felt prayer with the Father, in Jesus, by the Spirit.
Who names these videos?
looks like father and son.
Was this before or after Knowles “Moana” Luther video?
You are Peter . . . . the gates of hell will not prevail . . . amDG
Rome keeps rather quiet about the fact that the early Church fathers were divided into 3 groups of interpretation over this verse;
One (the majority) said the Rock was Christ; "upon THIS Rock, Peter, I will build MY church". This would tie in with ALL the OT references to God, himself as the Rock - too many to list!
Another group said it was the great declaration that Christ is "the Son of the Living God" - that FAITH/Doctrine is the Rock on which the Church is built.
A third group (the minority), suggested it might refer to the Apostle Peter himself, since he was the one who preached that initial sermon in Acts Ch2 which "launched" the Church into public declaration. This would be despite the fact that it is evident in the Book of Acts & references in Paul's epistles, that Peter was certainly NOT in charge of the NT Church!
Nor was there any office of Papacy even around until centuries later as Constantine influenced pagan ideas & a hierarchical attitudes to power.
Nor could there BE a Papacy amongst those who took Matthew 23:9 seriously! It just means "Father" - the very LAST term Christians would prefer to use for a Church "office".
So, yes, despite Papal attempts to crush Christians & supress Scripture, the powers of Hell have NOT managed to prevail against Christ & his dear children, his living Church (of many denominations)!
Our Rock remains solid.
Manage your audio feedback better folks
Great discussion ………
Martin Luther's heart was oh so filled with godly love and shone with such pure mercy...: ''“set fire to their synagogues or schools and bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn”, “their houses also be razed and destroyed'', ''they must be driven from our country…like mad dogs''... sounds familiar? ( _Martin Luther, On the Jews and Their Lies, ed. Helmut T. Lehmann, trans. Martin H. Bertram, vol. 47_ ) What a great human being, what an example for all Chistians to follow
The old "anti-semitism" accusation is best answered by this (see link);
ua-cam.com/video/B-7OiA-G3hA/v-deo.html "Was Luther guilty of Ant--Semitism?"
It is the Jewish religion's rejection of the Messiah which Luther hated, NOT the Jew as a race.
Unfortunately we use the same word for both race & religion.
Hitler wanted the Jewish race exterminated. Luther wanted the Jewish race rescued from legalistic religion.
That does NOT excuse his fierce language & that should be repudiated, much like the Papacy's violent language against gypsies, Jews, & just-anyone-who-translated -the-Bible for everyone, should ALSO be rejected.
Of course, the Papal claim to "represent upon this earth the place of God Almighty" (as one Pope put it), is completely demolished by it's own behaviour. If Luther makes a mistake it is just another fallible person who is making no such fatuous claim. This is a VERY significant difference!
No-one is building their faith on "Lutheran Infallibility", our job is to test what he (or anyone) says by the Scripture. We can only DO that, of course, because he had the courage to reckon the distribution of God's Word as more important than bowing to the violent suppression of the Vatican-Mafia.
Rome would have killed him if they could, like Jan Huss before him, under the Pope's "Safe passage" promise!
A lot of people don't realize that the Nazis hatred of Jews stemmed from Martin Luther.
Martin Luther is no one to look up to, thanks for sharing this quote of his
@@jd3jefferson556 A lot of people don't realize that the Nazis hatred of Jews stemmed from centuries of anti-Semitism & pogroms and a history of persecution of Jews, by Roman Catholic & other sources.
In old age Martin Luther wld sometimes default to these attitudes which is a terrific shame & not to be commended by anyone.
In MANY other respects Martin Luther (like many fallible humans), had a terrific amount we can look up to.
@@michaelbrittain7445 aaah and yet we are following a FALLIBLE MAN....maybe he could be wrong with so many things !!!!! yet we follow him....what an irony.
Hmm… I wonder if they did anything to Mr Martin to make him feel this way? I also wonder what those fellows believed about Christ 🤔🧐
Cuts of at 10:14!
"We serve a God that can braid plans b and c back into plan a"
No sir. There is only A. God is all knowing and sovereign.
Correct, but God does weave many *seemingly* different things into His pre-planned "plan a". But I've got to agree with you, the best we can hope for in that statement is poor wording on his part.
Sure Luther realized that the offer of salvation is a free gift available to all who believe. Only problem is, he believed God determined who would believe and who wouldn't believe. He was a hard determinist who took the Catholic indulgences and other liberal, performance(works) based heresies to the other extreme.
@Wang Chung
" Only problem is, he believed God determined who would believe and who wouldn't believe"
Source? I believe you are confusing Luther with Calvin.
@@stevenwiederholt7000 Luther wrote a book called bondage of the will, he was 100% double predestination dude just like Calvin.
@@christopherlampman5579 Yep. It turns out they were BOTH brilliant.
The issue is not "do we like it", remember.
@@christopherlampman5579 So in other words he supported the Bible? The Bible is pretty clear that God is omniscient and thus knows who will be saved.
Where are all my Catholics at? Let the hate begin....
Do you think your sins are too big to be forgiven?
Watch this: ua-cam.com/video/5MGCcGqaUF8/v-deo.html
Papacy is unbiblical! Otherwise , the apostoles would have said something about it ...even once! They talked about deacons and other leading positions within a church; and yet , they somehow forgot to mention about establishing a papacy?
They pretty clearly saw the authority Christ gave to Peter. Even John didn't enter His Tomb, even though he got there before Peter, John let Peter enter the tomb first.
Also changing his name to rock and upon this rock He built His Church, while also giving Peter the keys to the Kingdom, is pretty obvious!
Anyway, God bless, we have to follow authority and be united as 1 people of God.
@@jd3jefferson556 Peter evangelized the Jews; if anything the role that Catholic Church assigned to Peter would have been given to Paul, since he was the one to spread the Gospel among the gentiles. Don't be misled: THERE IS ONLY ONE ROCK IN THE ENTIRE BIBLE. And it's YESHUA! Not Peter. Read it in context. Check how many times the Bible states that Jesus Christ is our rock and refuge. Peter can't be it. God bless!
@@jd3jefferson556no the word “rock” does not refer to the Catholic sect
@edalbanese6310 Everything in the Bible points to the Catholic faith. God bless you.
Purgatory! Please , read your Bible!
We Catholics read the Bible. Read Luke 12 44-48. Jesus talks about 4 different outcomes. The SERVANTS who disobeyed were either punished severely or lightly according to their level of disobedience. (Purgatory. ) The SERVANT cut in 2 in thrown if fire is damned. Obviously, the church fathers and scholars from 2000 years ago are smarter than you!
Since I have not read Eric Metaxas' Martin Luther: The Man Who Rediscovered God and Changed the World, does he cover the following in his book?
1. That on his own authority in his German transcription of the Bible, Martin Luther added the word ALONE (Allein) to Romans 3:28 to read, "For we hold that a man is justified by faith ALONE (Allein)" to justify his doctrine of Sola Fide, i.e., Justification by Faith Alone. [Michael Davies, Cranmer's Godly Order (Ft. Collins, Colorado, 1995), p.25.]
2. That he wrote the following regarding his addition of the word ALONE (Allein) to Romans 3:28: "If your papist worries you about the word 'alone', just tell him plainly that Dr. Martin Luther will have it so, and says: 'Papist and donkey are one and the same thing; sic volo, sic jubeo, stat pro ratione voluntas.' For we must not be the pupils or disciples of the papists, but on the contrary their masters and judges. We ought to swagger and hammer on their donkey-heads, and, as Paul challenged the sanctimonious fools of his day, so I will also challenge these donkeys of mine." [G.W. Bromiley, Thomas Cranmer Theologian (London, 1956), p.36.]
3. That in addition to the above concerning Romans 3:28, Luther also wrote: "I am sorry now that I did not add the word 'all' so that it would read 'without all works of all laws', and thus ring out loudly and completely. However, it shall stand as it is in my New Testament, and though all the Papist-donkeys go mad about it, they shall not move me from this." [A. Hilliard Atteridge, Martin Luther (London, 1940), pp.19-20.]
4. That although subsequent German translations removed the word ALONE (Allein) from Romans 3:28 to accurately transmit in German what St. Paul originally wrote, Luther steadfastly held on to the doctrine of Sola Fide derived from his additional word, which then was adopted by the major 16th century Protestant Reformers who initiated organizations that continue on to the present day and which include: (A) John Calvin (Reformed) in his Institutes of the Christian Religion, (B) Thomas Cranmer (Church of England/Anglicanism) in No. VIII of 39 Articles in his Book of Common Prayer, and (C) Calvin's student John Knox (Presbyterianism) in his writings and homilies.
5. That in 1537 Martin Luther composed his Smalcald Articles that include his teaching that the Pope, the Catholic Bishop of Rome is the Antichrist (In 1580 these articles were added to the Book of Concord, which is considered authoritative in Lutheranism).
6. That this teaching of Luther's of the Pope as Antichrist was subsequently adopted by all of the 16th century Protestant Reformers which include: (A) John Calvin, specifically in Book IV of his Institutes of the Christian Religion; (B) Thomas Cranmer in his works, and (C) John Knox most vehemently in his writings and homilies. Later in the 17th century, this teaching of the Pope as Antichrist was adopted by free-lance Anglican clergyman John Wesley, founder of Methodism.
7. That in 1543 Martin Luther composed his On The Jews and Their Lies, the content of which is so inflammatory and incendiary that its contents should not be quoted in social media in light of what happened to German Jewry, particularly in the 20th century.
8. That one year before his death in 1546, Martin Luther published his final written testament where he personally addressed the Pope, the Catholic Bishop of Rome with these words: "I would not dream of judging or punishing you, except to say that you were born from the behind of the devil, are full of devils, lies, blasphemy, and idolatry; are the instigator of these things, God’s enemy, Antichrist, desolater of Christendom, and steward of Sodom." [From Against the Roman Papacy, an Institution of the Devil, pg. 363 of Luther’s Works, Vol. 41]
9. To be fair to Martin Luther, I have to consider the possibility that in these two above mentioned works published a few years before his death, (A) On The Jews and Their Lies and (B) Against the Roman Papacy, an Institutes of the Devil, he was suffering from some form of dementia that may have been induced by his voluminous intake of alcohol in the forms of beer and wine.
10. Is the possibility of No. 9 included in Eric Metaxas' biography of Martin Luther?
Maybe you should read the book and find out : all your points are typical Catholic Polemics against Martin Luther.
I am sure we can find some very bad things about the Popes too.
God used imperfect men and women in both the Old Testament and in the Church Age.
@@davidjanbaz7728 1. The book's title indicated a whitewash of Luther that I thought needed some balancing.
2. I refrained from mentioning how Luther sided with the nobility in their slaughtering of the peasants in 1524-25 when writing his Against the Murderous, Thieving Hordes of Peasants because their interpretation of the Bible disagreed with his.
3. I refrained from mentioning the fate of Fritz Erbe who suffered dungeon imprisonment until death at the hands of Luther for the crime of not baptizing his children. I applaud the Reformed Baptist Dr. James White for producing an insightful four minute video available on youtube titled Fritz Erbe: The Reformation Figure You've Never Heard Of | Dr. James R. White.
4. Do you have any problems with my quoting Dr. Luther?
5. I gave Luther the benefit of the doubt for his final two published works, stating that they were written while he was afflicted with dementia.
6. I would tremble for the state of Martin Luther's soul for publishing his 1543 Against The Jews And Their Lies and his 1545 Against The Papacy, An Institution of The Devil if I thought he had coldly and deliberately written them in his right mind.
7. I refrained from mentioning that Erix Metaxas' book most likely completely omitted how since after the Holocaust/World War II, Lutheran bodies in Germany and worldwide have distanced themselves from Martin Luther's antisemitism and apologized for his writings.
@@annakimborahpa While Luther's treatment of "Anabaptists" etc is certainly a good ground for criticism, the old "anti-semitism" accusation is best answered by this (see link);
ua-cam.com/video/B-7OiA-G3hA/v-deo.html "Was Luther guilty of Ant--Semitism?"
It is the Jewish religion's rejection of the Messiah which Luther hated, NOT the Jew as a race.
Unfortunately we use the same word for both race & religion.
Hitler wanted the Jewish race exterminated. Luther wanted the Jewish race rescued from legalistic religion.
That does NOT excuse his fierce language & that should be repudiated, much like the Papacy's violent language against gypsies, Jews, & just-anyone-who-translated -the-Bible for everyone, should ALSO be rejected.
Of course, the Papal claim to "represent upon this earth the place of God Almighty" (as one Pope put it), is completely demolished by it's own behaviour. If Luther makes a mistake it is just another fallible person who is making no such fatuous claim. This is a VERY significant difference!
No-one is building their faith on "Lutheran Infallibility", our job is to test what he (or anyone) says by the Scripture. We can only DO that, of course, because he had the courage to reckon the distribution of God's Word as more important than bowing to the violent suppression of the Vatican-Mafia.
Rome would have killed him if they could, like Jan Huss before him, under the Pope's "Safe passage" promise!
The colourful language of written debate in those times - from BOTH sides - tends to surprise us these days.
The Papist descriptions of Luther are just as "OTT", so have you been trembling for their souls as well?
Be fair.
As a teenager I heard & saw an Indulgence being sold at a Mass during Pope JP II's term of office, & had to ask the (specially sent) priest if I had misunderstood him. It turns out I hadn't.
Your points about Luther initially adding the word "alone" to Romans 3:28 then REMOVING it, (but believing that this is still very much the point of that passage) does nothing to refute his interpretation, of course.
This point is made by Scripture in other places with or without that word.
Christian believers who have never read Luther, have been coming to the same conclusion for centuries!
The point is that Christ's merits do not need the helpful addition of my own "goodnesses".
Still true.
Likewise, the similarity of the Papal Institution to the Anti-Christ as described in 2 Thessalonians & elsewhere is hard to avoid. You don't need Luther to spot that!
I might "tremble for the soul" of this pompous Italian institution & the shocking & filthy immorality of Popes (which I first encountered during my time studying history at a Catholic College). The various Popes behaviours during this time are "most likely omitted" by you for completely unbiased reasons, of course!
The obscene & laughable doctrine of "The Supererogatory Merits of the Saints", & the Pope having access to this "storehouse of merit" lies behind the Indulgences racket. This is still official RC doctrine. I was brought up under this nonsense.
I thank God for Martin Luther, (warts an' all)!
@@michaelbrittain7445 "Hail Mary, full of grace."
@michaelbrittain7445 wow that was quite a response, God bless
Always find it surprising at the level of belief that religious people are capable of no matter which religion they follow
Always have found it surprising that these same people are not all lefties
Meanwhile I'm not surprised about how atheists end up being communists all the time
Not a very meaningful contribution. All people are capable of sincerely and deeply being wrong, including atheists, though atheists have done far more damage to the world than religious people ever have.
@@hjga atheists love to see human beings as gods, so ya them becoming Communists is not surprising.
*The Bible was always clear about Who the Rock was. The Rock upon which the Church is built. It was never an imperfect man called Peter. It was Jesus Christ Himself, He who was sinless*
1. and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that Rock was Christ.
1 Corinthians 10:4 NIV
2.. “The Lord lives! Praise be to my Rock! Exalted be my God, the Rock, my Savior!
2 Samuel 22:47 NIV
3. Be my rock of refuge, to which I can always go; give the command to save me, for you are my rock and my fortress.
Psalms 71:3 NIV
4. You deserted the Rock, who fathered you; you forgot the God who gave you birth.
Deuteronomy 32:18 NIV
5. He said: “The Lord is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer;
2 Samuel 22:2 NIV
6. For who is God besides the Lord? And who is the Rock except our God?
Psalms 18:31 NIV
7. For who is God besides the Lord? And who is the Rock except our God?
2 Samuel 22:32 NIV (Same verse repeated in Pslams
8. The Lord lives! Praise be to my Rock! Exalted be God my Savior!
Psalms 18:46 NIV
9. They remembered that God was their Rock, that God Most High was their Redeemer.
Psalms 78:35 NIV
10. He will call out to me, ‘You are my Father, my God, the Rock my Savior.’
Psalms 89:26 NIV
11. proclaiming, “The Lord is upright; he is my Rock, and there is no wickedness in him.”
Psalms 92:15 NIV
12. Trust in the Lord forever, for the Lord, the Lord himself, is the Rock eternal.
Isaiah 26:4 NIV
13. The Lord is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer; my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge, my shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold.
Psalms 18:2 NIV
14. Since you are my rock and my fortress, for the sake of your name lead and guide me.
Psalms 31:3 NIV
15. Come, let us sing for joy to the Lord; let us shout aloud to the Rock of our salvation.
Psalms 95:1 NIV
16. “There is no one holy like the Lord; there is no one besides you; there is no Rock like our God.
1 Samuel 2:2 NIV
17. From the ends of the earth I call to you, I call as my heart grows faint; lead me to the rock that is higher than I. For you have been my refuge, a strong tower against the foe. I long to dwell in your tent forever and take refuge in the shelter of your wings. For you, God, have heard my vows; you have given me the heritage of those who fear your name.
Psalms 61:2-5 NIV
And there is more.
Peter literally means Rock.
@@lukewilliams448 Petros isn't Petra "This Rock " is Peter Satan in verse 23 ?
To be literal you must be consistent in both verses in Matthew 16.
🤣 the protestants think The Lord, the Word of God had problems with language
19 So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,
20 built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone,
Ephesians 2:19-20
Jesus is still the cornerstone that the church was built on
One thing does not invalidate the other, protestants have this notion that its either/or, yes Christ Our Lord is the rock, but Simon Peter can and does have a role to play.
Ohhh i though it was feces he nailed to the church door.
Church history is not taught nor is it understood by most believers; therefor topics like this come up with much ignorance.
Martin Luther wasn't against the Catholic church. He was vehemently against the Pope though! Sadly, none of it matters because he never got far enough in the doctrine to figure out the mystery given to Paul. But Luther certainly propelled it on the back end of others before him. He was so focused on the book of Revelation, like most Christians sadly get trapped in today, and NEVER learn the Revelation of the Mystery given ONLY to the apostle Paul. That's the thing that God actually wants Christians to understand (maybe about 5-10% of all Christians. Maybe). That's the real mystery.
Revelation is a book revealing a future time period, but has nothing to do with the body of Christ. This is what Martin and many have missed, but it would not be possible today to be where Mid Acts Pauline truth is at today without Martin Luther. In fact, Pauline Christians have always been the ones who do God's will (certainly not perfectly. I mean 2k years common Church!), because they understand the fellowship of the mystery to some capacity. They were killed for thousands of years. But God only wise, the King James bible opened the floodgates of truth and the world has been in a whirl spin ever since. One day, you guys will get your wish and we will be raptured out of here. And all of that vanity is going to come to a reality real quick when you realize what you just missed. If you even get it then? Many will believe the delusion in that day. Even your own flesh and blood will turn their back on you. What a time.
Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
What hidden wisdom did God keep secret that would of made Satan not crucify Christ? Can you answer. It can only be found in Paul's epistles. Everything else is revealed and known about. Satan knows that bible better than you know your name. Yet God said the information he gave Paul defeated Satan and was hidden Eph 3.1-10, Col 1.25-26. How so?
Martin Luther never found the answer to that verse in his life. Don't let the wiles of the Devil take your reward. Paul is very clear on that issue.
What are you saying? Gods word is available to all, it’s not a mystery. The word “rock” does not refer to the Catholic Church or sect. What I am missing? You making Christianity impossible.
I'll never let a preacher tell me what the bible says just read it yourself and stay away from the pagan traditions of Catholicism.
The premier capital sin is pride.
You should read the church fathers
that's how you ended with 10 000 protestant denominations
@@mjramirez6008 30,000+
@@mjramirez6008 THAT old chestnut!? There are LOADS of RC "denominations"! 😀
Every time someone tried to reform that Italian racket, the Papacy would just subsume them into the Great System. They would be allowed to practice their alternative version of how to live the Christian life PROVIDED they submitted to the great Pontiff!
They are called "Orders" instead of denominations, of course!
None of them agree, & all practice divergent ideas.
"Denominations" are all in basic agreement in Protestant circles; compare the Confessions of Faith of Presbyterians, Baptists, Independents, Anglicans etc from the Savoy Declaration to the 39 Articles or the Westminster Confession of Faith.
The differences tend to be minor questions, such as "How should individual congregations organise themselves?" to "How much water is needed for a baptism" etc
This is why Christian denominations work together so often & have been doing for many, many years.
The wonderful freedom to associate in these groups was opposed, of course, by the Vatican Mafia to whom all non-conformity to it's "Baptised-paganism" was considered an affront worthy of death.
10,000 is an exaggeration, of course, but the alternative of Italian Sacerdotalist Oppression is hardly a better alternative!
God has blessed his denominations!
Sola Fide! Catholicism is a load of baloney.
Matthew 16:24 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “If anyone wants to follow after me, let him deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me. 25 For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life because of me will find it. 26 For what will it benefit someone if he gains the whole world yet loses his life? Or what will anyone give in exchange for his life? 27 For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will reward each according to what he has done.”
Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in your name, drive out demons in your name, and do many miracles in your name?' 23 Then I will announce to them, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you lawbreakers! ’
Luke 6:46 “Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and don’t do the things I say? 47 I will show you what someone is like who comes to me, hears my words, and acts on them: 48 He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. When the flood came, the river crashed against that house and couldn't shake it, because it was well built. 49 But the one who hears and does not act is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. The river crashed against it, and immediately it collapsed. And the destruction of that house was great.”
Romans 6:16 Don’t you know that if you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of that one you obey-either of sin leading to death or of obedience leading to righteousness?
James 2:24 "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." ''as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also'' ''Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith *by* my works.''
@@michaelharrington6698 AMEN! As a Protestant, of course, I agree with all of the above.
TRUE faith will show itself in our life & behaviour.
Any life which contradicts Christ's values indicates that it's profession of faith is false.
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." Ephesians 2:8-10
"It is faith alone that justifies, but the faith that justifies is never alone." John Calvin
"The true, living faith which the Holy Spirit instils into the heart, simply cannot be idle." Martin Luther.
"The only saving faith is following faith." Richard Glover.
If it sounds too good to be true then it probably is. Faith alone is a lie from the devil, shoot the devil not only believes but knows Jesus is God, so clearly Faith alone is not enough.
Even the act of maintaining your faith threwout your lifetime is a work in itself.
@@mjramirez6008 that doesn't disprove that we are given eternal live by salvation and not works. It just says what we should do not that they are necessary for our salvation.