Below are my thoughts on the matter of men not being involved in church. My biases are that I am a Christian man and have been missionary to the east. 1. Men only respect other men who are competent. When lispy, soft spoken pastors stand up and give a message to rough men who bleed and curse and are sore from hard work we don't listen because you haven't earned it. 2. Pastors flirt with the women and nag the men in the church on the women's behalf. Mother's day: you popped out a kid, you are perfect everyone worship you; Father's day: men do better, show attention to your wife and kids, do more work at home. 3. Emphasized sins are masculine tendencies , emphasized righteousnesses are female tendencies. 4. We demand honest measures. Right is right and wrong is wrong. Don't soften things to make us feel better. Be aggressive, direct, unyielding and completely honest. 5. Quit singing those lame songs about being broken and weak. We are not. We are not perfect and in respect to our own salvation we are powerless. But we are strong and well made. (this is a generally incorrect extension of David's comment that the Lord desires a contrite heart and a broken spirit. This is the state of repentance and man before God, not the general state of man in the face of the world) 6. Spend more time preparing your sermon. Preach earnestly and truthfully. Discuss criticism and dispute alternative views on grounds of logic. Present the greater historical significance and local cultural significance of the portion of scripture being taught. 7. Let men be leaders. We will do it if we must, but when we get nagged and badgered we shrug off the responsibility and let the less capable moaners take over. 8. Expect more of us. 9. Get to the point and don't waste our time. The check out lines at Home depot take a few minutes to get through; the checkout lines at Michaels take tens of minutes to get through.
there is one factor in the feminizing of the modern church that has been the main force, i personally suspect, that is driving men away from church. The worship music. Most modern worship music sounds like a teenage girl singing love songs to the boy she has a crush on. Long gone are the glorious songs like "when the saints go marching in", and those lofty and classical medieval sounding old hymns that so inspire one to images of infinite meaning and God's infinite glory. Another factor, i suspect, is the disconnectedness in most modern churches. People greet each other on Sunday mornings asking how their landscaping business or investment plan is going. We men, as a general rule, (leftist men notwithstanding) hate phoniness. Men as a species always crave genuineness which seems to be a difficult commodity to be had in most modern churches, i suspect
The Bible: husbands, give yourselves for your wife. The Church: Amen. Men: Amen The Bible: wifes, submit to your husbands as to the Lord... The Church: ... that's not exactly meant literally... Men: this is fake Christianity. I'm out.
It's simple. Peterson attracts men audience because men want practical solutions to their problems. The Church attracts women because they generally want hope and faith.
Advice at the 10:15 minute mark was excellent! Jordan Peterson says that bad parents, teachers and clinicians think the best way to make people brave and more mature is by protecting them. Jordan says emphatically “that is not the way it works!” Jordan says: “to make people braver and more mature is to encourage them to voluntary expose them selves to things that they are afraid of.” Wow! I wish my parents would have encouraged me to confront what I was afraid of.
I love when someone who is asked a difficult question, pauses, then says I don't know. I love that. I means he has given the matter some thought, and doesn't just want to bullshit his way though an answer.
Culturally much contemporary worship music is more appealing to women than men. A lot of men feel weird singing about their love for a particular man. It’s a touchy feeley, sticky gooey, warm ‘n cuddly precious moments sort of spirituality. The lights are dim, the music is slow, and the words are repetitive. A certain amount of this is probably OK but if it isn’t balanced with a focus on other aspects of God’s character it’s dangerously one dimensional. There’s a big difference between “A Mighty Fortress is Our God” and many contemporary worship songs. In Islam men are told that they are warriors in a battle against disbelief. That appeals to the warrior side of men. In contemporary Christianity the theme is exclusively God is Love. This is spoken of so much that people start believing Love is God.
"I think people should grow the hell up" = big round of applause. There's your reason why the church has lost its appeal; it treats adults like little kids who need to be told what to do.
On any given Sunday at a typical Orthodox Christian parish, the congregation will be representative of the male/female percentage in the general population, about 50/50. When Jordan Peterson suggests that perhaps the issue is that contemporary Christianity does not present a challenge to men, he appears to be spot on. Being a Christian in the ancient sense of the term is the most difficult thing in the world to do. "The kingdom of God suffers violence and the violent take it by force", Jesus said. The warfare which the Lord mentions here is not a warfare between one person and another; rather it is my warfare against my own inappropriate, sinful passions. A person who would say of someone else's sinful act, "Well, I would never do such a thing!", is someone who has not entered into the warfare with their own passions which brings appropriate humility.
The church I attend has a relatively high male attendance. I think Jordan is right about emphasizing responsibility and the strength to overcome. My pastor reminds us all the time about how God wants us to be successful and to have our households taken care of so that we can go out and take care of others in our community and bring heaven to earth. Before attending this church, I’d never heard religious people talk about the need to be successful in life. The emphasis was always on “give give give!”
You know, I think it's not only in America, it's the same in Poland. For me, in the Catholic church, the content is shallow in some sense, the priests are not brave, they don't comment on real struggles of people but repeat the same cliches. As Polish, I wad raised in Catholic traditions, yet only last year I found the Truth. Strong examples are difficult to find. It's the women who expect the Church to be lenient but we shouldn't be, we should expect more from people but also teach them the true wisdom of the Gospels in depth. For me that's the weakness of the Churches I have been to. My husband doesn't want to go there as well because it's shallow, the priests don't feel genuine. Why is that?
On reason I can think of is that Men are not as social as Women. Men are much more solitary. If the church is becoming a social club, Men will avoid that.
I can tell you as a husband of a wife who goes to church, and as a person who was raised in church, taught the word of God extensively as a youth, and a young adult. Church today has been extensively feminized by the type of music and other things. Churches want to sometimes operate outside of the word of God. I’ve literally heard my wife’s pastor say from the pulpit, “ how can you expect God to answer your prayers when you can’t even be a faithful tither! As far as I know that is a false teaching. I tried to explain to my wife that is literally like bastardizing the blood of Jesus! It’s no different than saying the blood of Jesus is almost good enough for you! There’s only one thing you have to do so it can be good enough for you! Where she goes to church they really hammer home the tithe. The pastor’s Dad sits on the church board. The kind of thing you would think is a kind of conflict of interest. I saw this in many churches I grew up in and it really rubs me the wrong way. All of the holidays we celebrate Originated as a pagan holiday. Especially Christmas! I am not a Jehovah Witness either but they at least get that part right. I still pray and ask for forgiveness daily because I know we are all sinners. However I know there is a time coming, the Bible mentions it, where everyone will be made to take the mark, to buy sell or trade. The church however teaches we are going to be raptured. I don’t see this in scripture like every one else does though. I believe that message would not go over well with women, as they don’t like hearing bad things to come. Where we might be left with the decision to starve or face taking the mark of the beast, a chip of some sort? We now can see this as a real possibility and should be teaching it in the church! What if Jesus doesn’t come back like everyone thinks? He himself said “people will be looking to the heavens and asking where is the Lord and where is the promise of his coming! He also says that in those days there she’ll be tribulation such as never been and Walter those women who have little children in those days! This should not be left out of the teachings just because it is a hard message to except! Look all Jesus is disciples thought that they were going to be rapture too! However most of them died violent deaths, being crucified upside, down being sawed in half, boiled alive, and it is a horrible thing to talk about, but these things should be told to the church as the message of Jesus may cost some of us our life one day! If we choose to follow it! Sorry for going off on a tangent. I know all the stuff I talked about would not be very popular in church today..
I'll tell you why, Jordan knows what he is talking about. He explains. A church hasn't a clue, they fake it and just say believe and have faith. We want to understand,not just follow.
Let me add an observation. Far too many "women in church" love to assume the authority of God and beat men over the head with it. Demanding that men obey them as if they we're speaking for God. Pretty screwed up, but there you go....
I have a personal and observational theory on this subject. In most churches there’s a system of Value/hierarchy in the church, this is pretty obvious when you look at the church leadership and so on. But the next levels down is my focus, after church leadership you have elders, and then families with children, single mothers with children and than married couples, and than unmarried couples and lastly is single men. Men are at the bottom of the value/hierarchy in the church. The only way to gain value is by marriage, but there in lies another issue. That 60% is mostly women either married, unmarried with children or elderly. The marriage pool for men is very small and thus prospects are none existent in the 20-30 age range. So combination of being under valued, along with no viable potential mates gives most men a sense of unwillingness to participate in the institution of church. Why put value into something that doesn’t value you.
I have been wondering about this as well, but one very important thing I noticed, the more men in a church, the more vibrant, strong and effective the church is. I think men are a lot more practical, and we have to find a way to captivate the practicality and direct it into faith.
Give men something to think about and to do that is useful! Men work well when they are facing challenges together. We are builders and protectors and fighters. We carry weight and the burdens of others. Being forgiven is great and more wonderful than we could ever deserve but we still need to work, to move and to take on loads. When we dont we fall back into sin! Let them do it as brothers in arms. I had a men's prayer group that lasted 25 years and many of us would not have been able to get through many hard times without it but tbh it was only half the answer we needed to take on greater challenges - that of family, friends, work, community and more. The group was like a home base to return to each week! I see churches trying to do men's stuff once a month and while that enables connections it never goes much deeper than that. You are not going to war together meeting once a month, you are also not going to trust someone with your life that way either! It has to be weekly and it must be outside of that group meeting too!
Personally I have a great deal of respect for J Peterson. I'm very happy to hear his response to Post Modernism, the Radical Left, etc., and find much (most) of what he has to say to ring true. My concern is with something the representative of the Mosaic Christian Church says in his question. He mentions that JP has a "high view of Scripture". Perhaps the more current understanding of a "high view" is considerably less than it was 40 years ago. If one was considered (40 years ago) to have a "high view of Scripture" it would be assumed that the events found in Scripture are actual events with actual people involved. What I sense from JP is that a large part of those stories are not actual events, but mythological writings that convey a "truth" (archetypical truth). This would not have been considered a "high view of Scripture", but a rather "Liberal view of Scripture" just a couple of decades ago.
Hey, I am a Jordan Peterson fan, and I’m from India, I keep coming back to him to seek some intelligent insight that is firstly very fatherly, is because he seems like a Good father to have as a guide, and he is emotionally and spiritually connected to his belief, so connected, that it can be seen, I know for a fact that he believes in Jesus and God as a trinity and the fact that he Studied the Bible verse by verse. At the same time he’s a guide to the lost and dejected, so he’s able to reach even the most lost and rejected of people. But the church seems like it’s too stuck in being dogmatic and it doesn’t really always express the “fruits of the spirit” and many a time, Pastors/Church folk have a very Judgmental attitude towards the Young boys and men who really actually only need an understanding and non-judging father figure guiding them, and many a times the messages in church are very outward based, and based on what we ought to portray of ourself, but with Jordan, he’s being the good father like figure, he tells me to buck up, get my act together, but with love... and without judgement... that’s what it seems to me. And I feel he really wants to help me, like personally, like he took it on himself to help me, even though I didn’t ask... that’s just brilliant. Also, he’s wise, I honestly believe, in our time right now, He’s the only man I see Carrying the Light, and moving it forward. True to his belief, all the way!!
Our church in Las Vegas has many visitors. I notice a sharp difference in male response to receive Christ when the pastor uses the language of responsibility. Taking charge of your life, stepping up, being a leader for your family. When he talks about feelings and victimhood, more women respond. Also, although I am not Mormon, there is a large population here in Las Vegas with a lot of positive male involvement. The men are told that they get to be priests in their teens with eternal responsibilities, and be called Elder when they are ready to take the full priesthood at 18 and go on mission for two years. Expectation and respect are married with responsibility. And this responsibility is for everyone not just pastors like the rest of Christendom. I personally believe it is Biblical for each of us to accept responsibility to share the gospel and volunteer with the church. We have struggled in the Christian church at large with the issue of not being so patriarchal in a tyrannical way that we forgot about all the good things about having strong men. This is why there are less men in church. Give them a sense of duty, responsibility, positions earned by respect and duty and a sense that they have the power to responsibility to effect change in the world.
Maybe the reason he is so popular is that he explains things with great clarity, logic and directness. This is not always the case with the Bible. He doesn't rely solely on the scriptures for the morality and behaviour he advocates, but incorporates modern science and psychology. People are drawn to truths and (Western) science/medicine are based on observable facts. Why is he so popular with men? Well, he is a man and people generally relate better to others of the same sex.
Christian music is geared toward women, christian preaching is geared toward women, and christian social events are geared toward women. Men need a call to action not just an appeal to emotion. Men don't want to sing about being in love with Jesus. And men don't want to meet up just to share finger food and sip punch. If you want men in your church talk to your boys like men, tell them to grow the hell up. Make sure to incorporate songs that aren't romantic toward Christ. Have social events involving activities men like. Basket ball, bar-B-Q and such. Do not encourage video games in men's life, its an artificial challenge that supplants their need for a real challenge.
Thanks for posting this. Mr. Peterson has a wonderfully sharp mind, and his insights are valuable. I do not say this to criticize, but to shine a light on another aspect of Christianity that isn’t mentioned in this presentation. It is simply this: The “First Generation Church” had an experience of/with God that was more direct, and less philosophical than the approach being talked about here. That experiential relationship with God is available to us today.
Interesting question and how he answers this. I also witnessed in my recent years that church is geared toward women and thin skinned men. The presentation is more psychological seminars than what the Bible says. I struggle to find a church at this time, not a perfect church, but one in the right way
This resonated with me so much..I have been following Peterson for two years, he has changed my life. I have grown to appreciate scripture and the meaning that Peterson defines it by. I recently went to a church for a service, it was recommended to me for being open and grounding its teaching based on meaning and not just blind faith/preaching. Sadly I left with a feeling that thee was no depth, and what Peterson touched on here is amazing and read my mind. I wish there was more discussion and teachings based off of adopting values and responsibilities, not just this forcing Christ down your throat.
Just some honest feedback. Grew up Midwest Bible Belt and observed massive hypocrisy in church. Some of the most questionable people , regarding the golden rule, were the most active in church. There was a lot of good in church but it seemed outweighed by the jerks.
Currently our culture fails to address men in a non condescending and meaningful way. Jordan Peterson does what a good pastor could. He addresses the problem men have. "What do I do to create meaning in my life?" Or to put it more simply, what "should" I do, and why should I do it. He breaks down the meat in a way that boys can digest to become men. He's humble and genuine. I wondered why he didn't become a pastor at some point. He's fiercely intelligent and witty. Of course you have guys like me who ask questions like "Why can't faith healers regrow amputee limbs?" Or "Why did God drown the world for 40 days to kill off the sinners when he could create it in 6, and if he's perfect shouldn't evil be eradicated from earth after that?" So you need an intellectual pastor to address that kind of thing.
Qu-Why less men in church? (I made notes while listening) the answer was interesting and in alignment with other talks he gave about commitment generally perhaps in a sentence ... The church could issue a stronger challenge for men to live up to. Challenge men to work from strength not weakness. Summary of dialogue - church perhaps stop focusing on control, more on integration. Not enough challenge for men and meaning of being a good man. Focus on "meaning" vs "responsibilty". Antidote to Peter Pan syndrome adult male and non commitment. Wendy ages without Peter Pan who plays with the imaginative tinker bell. Key is adopting responsibility. It's not just self esteem it's accepting responsibility to fight back against malevolence and chaos. Say the words (logos) and commit. Christ says Pick up your cross and follow me, confront malevolence and fight to win (whether it's in your heart or in others). People become braver by facing the things that challenge them not by external protection or safe spaces. Re Faust, mentions Mephistopheles nihilism hell and suicide. Confront devil in the desert. Alternative is the voluntary acceptance of 'being' and working to be strong and optimistic. Sometimes the worst things happen to the least deserving person (innocent) . But there's more to you than you think. Answer?? Not genocide or suicide. The answer is turn & face it. Open up to the full catastrophe of existence. Be the change that matters. Then on suffering, tragedy and death beds; authentically playing their part, brave and proper, brings people together. Ask yourself did I bring everything to bear here, did I face it truthfully, was I 100% in (rarely). But ask honestly did I sit sat on the fence with no commitment. The sorriest people in world were the 'peter pans'who sat on the fence, don't be that person. Don't encourage them. More power to you brothers and sisters
For a while the most popular interview on Focus on the Family was the interview between Dr. Dobson and Dr. Donald Joy of Asbury Seminary where they addressed this issue. For a starter, sitting in a pew being preached at puts men in a feminine role. To some extent it castrates them. Men are not empowered in most churches, they are dis-empowered. As I remember it, just when boys reach adolescence, they are confronted with the choice of being feminized in the church or leaving the church to become men. Not a good choice to have to make. When many men read the book WILD AT HEART they instinctively left the church to go after real manhood. As a contrast to this, Jesus did not set his men in pews and preach to them. Lecturing wasn't really much of an activity for him. He led his men out into the world into a grand adventure. Dah. Frankly, most pastors aren't very masculine themselves and are threatened by real men who they fear and run away from and even drive off. I've seen it.
I'm surprised you have no comments. I'm new to Peterson, his work and ideas. But he is phenomenally in touch with modern society. Millions of people are listening to him. Pastor, you did well to ask the question, and I'm glad he chose to respond. While I hold a different theological bent than Peterson, my work has led me to fully agree with and say the same that the way he repurpose tragedy is to convert it into meaning. Living with meaning or purpose requires sorting out your past, articulate your narrative, confront your fears, map out your future in light of your purpose, and risk to live it. Men will sign up all day long to do this if we call them to it, and show them a way to get there.
That was a wonderful question and thanks for sharing his response. So to summarize, we need more of a "be strong and of good courage" message to attract men into church. Quite a contrast to a "health and wealth" gospel or a "greasy grace" or "sloppy agape" message, isn't it?
A couple of things I’d put forward. The early Church .. pre Constantine, always tended to attract females and slaves more than male citizens. In modern times there could be one ( amongst many) reasons that women tend to go to Church more than men. Men tend to, but not always, do longer hours at work than women. Sometimes the woman partner will go to Church on a Sunday, when the male stays at home doing some maintenance or relaxing if they’re not working
Why aren't more men there? 1. Sermons revolve around feelings, and give very little substance, or real solution. 2. Sermons beat men over the head, no matter how well they are living-- and all but deify women. Boys and girls that are listening get the message, loud and clear. 3. What little instruction men DO get revolves completely around women. If you doubt t what I've said here, check the usual difference between Mother's Day sermons and Father's Day sermons.
In my many decades of life I have been in dozens of churches, just visiting, part time as well as full time membership, due to both attempting to find a full time church, but also from traveling with my job. Some years ago my attention was piqued and I began to pay more and more specific attention to church atmosphere and overall demeanor not just of individual people but of the congregation as a whole. I realized that the church in America had become gynocentric. Not just "feminized". But actually, contrary to written scripture, Feminist and elevating of women above men. And this matches the general social norms of secular America. As far as I'm concerned the church in America is dead. It's owned lock, stock and barrel by the secular Feminists by way of the "Christians" who have bowed their knee to Feminism and the Feminist gender supremacy cult. Christians have become so saturated and immersed in Feminist cult dogma that they are consciously rejecting written scripture. I'm not meaning to say that Christians have done and are doing it intentionally. But it is the result of 50 years of saturation of Feminism in every aspect and avenue of life, beginning with organized education of children, both public and private. 95% of teachers are women, 95% of teachers are publicly confessed Feminists. But Christians, as a whole, have failed to recognize this issue and have failed to reject it. Ask any confessed, born-again-Christian about verses like Ephesians 5:22 and you will witness a near knee-jerk response of "Well, husbands are supposed to sacrifice themselves". You will witness a complete avoidance, an actual aversion to the verse and a near instantaneous accusatory finger pointing at men. I had one pastor glance around nervously, I suppose to see if anyone had seen him talking to me, and he turned on his heel and fast-walked away. I have witnessed and experienced this in dozens of churches in multiple states. This is not a localized phenomenon. Men already deal with the soul grinding and life crushing hell of Feminism all day, every day in every facet of life. Why should we also inflict it on ourselves in what is supposed to be the life giving, life affirming sanctuary of church?
No one dare comment? I am a man and I do not attend church. Why? In order for me to attend and not merely attend passively, but participate, I must have some sense that it will be worthwhile. If church is not empowering toward a more fulfilling life then why go?
Dr. Peterson amplifies Christ's existence and it's psychological ramifications for us. That was a beautiful question that allowed Jordan to answer in a way that was far beyond what any of us might have imagined, don't you think?
It's a good question. I'm not sure of the answer, but I'm part of a church and a fellowship of 2700 churches worldwide that has a very healthy 50-50 male/female split, and I have also noticed this is unusual in the modern Christian church. What do we do differently? The main thing I would say is we simply take God at his word. Specifically, God says he wants men, not women to lead, we simply obey. There is a spiritual dynamic released in doing so that attracts men to fulfill that natural, God-given inclination to thrive in masculine pursuits. That also retains men, and rewards so many to be able to get free from the lies dominating our current society, that would have this, and all Godly intents flipped on their ear and hog-tied. There is a natural inclination in men to stand down, or even walk away, rather than compete with or come under the authority of a woman. This is not chauvinism or failure to be woke, this is the natural consequence of the way God made us. God will and has raised up women to lead where men wouldn't, but this is not the way it ought to be. And because our society has been so largely feminized by this strategy of hell, there is a real lack of men willing to be men, and stand against this, which perpetuates the problem. The disparity of men is really just an extension of the same trend throughout all of society, that as women gradually enter into positions of authority and competition, men are slinking away to Mama's basement to play video games. Amazing what a people can do when they simply trust God!
I like to ask this question. What kind of sermons were preached before WW2 broke out. Because men back then knew that they had to do something to stop a madman from gaining control of the whole world. These were not super men. Just average every day guys but the difference was that they felt that a job had to done. If we had the kind of messages that are being preached in today's churches back then we would be in a world of hurt.
TL;DR: Church isn't tough enough. It's so gentle and cozy and soft that there is no risk, no pain, no threat. If you want men in your pews, give them not only something to fight for, but also to resist. Do be aware that the women will not like the sea change one bit. If you want an idea of this in practice, check out Mt. Athos and the Orthodox Church; even today its membership is more male and families.
How about having some hard standards? The churches have become just as gynocentric as mainstream culture. Since women are 60% (and probably higher) of church population, you're inclined to tell them what they want to hear so they don't leave. Women hate standards because they really don't like the responsibility necessarily implied by assuming them. Well, they do like hearing about standards that only apply to men. Just don't tell them that it's not okay to rationalize why they are destroying their family or they'll find another church. She will find a preacher to tell her that what she's doing is great with Jesus. Men don't need to lie to themselves as much. When we do wrong, we just shake hands with the devil. We don't need to reinvent reality to justify ourselves. Women need to be "happy" about it and the church is more than happy to tell them whatever they want to hear so they will stop crying.
I think it has more to do with that fact women tend to think more emotionally while men tend to set aside emotion when making choices. Both are valid and very useful when used in tandem as you can't go through life thinking in only one area alone. Religion makes emotional appeals to get you to buy into it which works more with people who think more emotionally than rationally. Men will rationalize the religion and find it wanting to some degree not finding as much value to the emotional pull that women would find to be more to their draw.
Why do churches fail to attract males? Answer seems to be right there in front of you, it is centered around feminine characteristics. You sit and preach peace, but fail to see the honor in strength, generally. Also, the crowd in which gets attracted to church are those who cant be mean, not because of their moral greatness, but out of insecurity, cowardly, or lack of ability to be mean. There is no honor in not punching me if you dont, and cant, bare the courage to punch me and face the consequences, but the honor comes from the ability to do so and then restraining yourself from doing it . Thirdly, churches are largely filled with hypocrites. They were when jesus was preaching, and are today. No one pushes people farther away from jesus than those who claim to be the tolerant, loving Christian. I know many a good Christians, the best man i have ever had the privilege of knowing went to churches twice a week, but he never once claimed to be something other than what he was. He didnt tell everyone how much he cared and loved them because it was not the truth. He loved his wife, family, friends and country. The ones who go around saying they love everyone, tend to be those who love no one more than themselves because just like the sjws, they do it for moral virtue. They are the first to sign up to teach religion class and the first to sign someone up to be kicked out of religion class without ever giving any care in the world for that individual. That is why churches are failing. People are seeing through the facade. My family still goes, and i will too take my kids, BUT only because i think it will help integrate them into society.
I just started. You seem to feel there to be an importance to GET men into church, not to add to the church. I don't go to church, but I am a Christian. Nothing sets my teeth on edge more than some chick PRAYING for everything, having no thoughts, allegedly not thinking of anything, but praying, listening for that still small voice, and unlike myself, never in question whether that voice is God, or the bicameral mind. Christians grasping hands, and clenching eyes shut, making an effort to be sure that they are observed praying. The artificial speech, especially in church. I pray constantly, conversational, and genuinely. I often use the pattern of the Lord's prayer, and never say it the same way twice, rethinking it each time. I struggle with, "Hallowed be thy name," thinking that my human mind cannot grasp why a name can be holy, or that holy, or the significance of a name being more set apart and special than I can grasp. I have an interpretation of one commandment, not to take the name of the Lord in vain, and I don't think it has anything to do with, "B'gosh," as the clothing ad used to read. To me, a duck hunter on the lake blasts a 12 gauge hole in the aluminum hull of the canoe, bails water in vain with the teaspoon from his pocket. So many Christians are so proud of using social shaming to change someone else's life, but do deplorable acts, such things as making up extra rules for Christians to follow. Jesus came eating and drinking, but a member having a beer with dinner gets ostracized. Those take the name of the Lord, but they do so in vain, His name does nothing for them, shows people in the world that taking His name has no value. How many churches want you warming their pew swats for that tithe money? I am so much happier being away from the church clique. True, my record was set a couple months ago, 26 days between my regular social connection, where I say, "Hello," "No," (I don't want to pay 10¢ for a grocery bag), and, "Good day." There is church, and there is a life in Christ, I need the latter, but I am cautious about the former, especially learning the level of infiltration into the church by the enemy. I learned that even Billy Graham, turns out he was a 33° Mason.
This was interesting as a minister in a church with recovery houses. We have sho many Pan hearted in attendance it's incredible! While they're being given the word they're always thinking about how much easier is was on the street until they're found dead or permanently disabled. Change? "Not today, I have plenty of time."
As a male Christian myself I can say that it's hard for me to go to church. Reason being is because I feel very out of place whenever I do go. It feels like I have to hold myself to these impossibly high standards that are uncharacteristic for me. I think what a lot of churches need to start doing is focus more on the ugly side of who we are, though not entirely. Too many churches focus on only the bible and reading through it, which isn't bad in itself. But a lot of people may have a hard time getting it. Because of how different it was back then it may be hard to humanize people within that time. I think it'd be good for people within the church to be more open about their shortcomings that they have in life, that could allow for more development instead of going through the motions of worship into reading scripture. Maybe a good way would be to have open discussion instead of one guy talking to the rest of the audience, though that may be difficult depending on the size of the church itself
Very sufficiently and intellectually answered. As we have come to expect of him. I still do hope that he won't be found wanting when Jesus is revealed as judge
Men like JP because he passes down wisdom about life that isn’t being passed down by their elders. And society as a whole is lacking the passing down of wisdom on how to walk through the world in a way that makes sense. We have so many social justice warriors today because of the lack of wisdom passed down, the breakdown of the traditional family, and victimhood politics. People are not being taught to be rational adults. They are being taught to act like children who need to be taken care of by the state. But there is a deep well of desire in men to fulfill their innate role as adults and leaders.
I live in the South and occasionally visit black churches and can tell you this is a problem there as well (more women than men). Once when I was attending church at Bethesda on St. Helena Island, the preacher even talked about this during his sermon!
Im commenting as I listen(I know. I know) and Im only 90 seconds in, but I think 2 things deter men from church; to much(perception at least) of a finger wagging "thou shalt not" attitude in church, AND the distaste for, again at least percieced, hypocrasy. I think church should be-"Come here and connect with God, He will give you direction and some rules when you need them but his 1st concern is the connection and his 2nd concern is FORGIVING YOU for all your mistakes as you TRY to do whats right. He knows you will make mistakes!!! Like a parent knows their kid will make mistakes whenever the child tries to master any endeavor. You have to make mistakes. He gave us free will for all kinds of reason but part of the equation is YOU have to come to Him to make the connection. He doesnt say "BECOME PERFECT AND THEN COME TO ME" He says ""Come to Me as you are making yourself the BEST yourself you can be. 👍
Wow, I agree on the negative effects of churches trying to make things easier for people. "Welcome all people and have them proclaim belief that Jesus is the son of God". That's too simple, too easy of an thing to do to obtain heaven. If churches dig deeper, emphasize more about the difficulty in the journey of following God and what that means for you to do, I suppose more men would go to church. Emphasize carrying your cross, overcoming temptation, doing what is right, rather than preach only forgiveness, endless mercy, and acceptance. Thanks for asking Peterson this question.
Hey Fionn, we would love for you to join Mosaic for one of our online broadcasts. We are passionate about helping people of all spiritual backgrounds learn what it means to have a real, honest, open, relationship with Jesus and investigate what that means.
I think one reason we don’t have a lot of men in the church because we make Jesus look and people in the Bible weak. When Jesus was a strong leader and man. When they were gambling in his fathers house he drove them out. I think the church should put more strength in it and men will come
good question..... thank you for posting..... perhaps many men don't like to be lectured or advised by clergy with whom they have little in common? just a thought....Church is also seen as feminine by many men and not manly.... all the best from Bellows Falls, Vermont
I’m a man and I stopped going to church years ago. It is a shallow place, filled with adult children either terrified, spiritually lazy or docile. They want someone to tell them what to think because they never learned how to think. They want an almighty parent to tell them everything will be alright. Someone to take care of their guilt and hurt in the now. Someone to tell them they will live forever doing whatever one does in heaven. And to be told they are Vindicated, and forgiven no matter how many times they cease to change, and those who don’t believe as they do, will be punished. And they don’t want to burn in hell forever and ever and ever and ever. The church is a manmade institution, politicized, commercialized and hidebound. Inclusive yet exclusive.
Your battle is never with the devil, it's with the Lord. He's calling you to die and you don't want to. Another point I'd like to make is, he's right, the Church is luke warm. When the Church isn't "All in" why should the men who attend it? Where are the Fasting and Praying Pastors? You want to be a leader? Then lead.
Last time I went to church about 12 years ago was a Christmas Eve service my wife talked me into going,the preachers sermon was about original sin and sex out of wedlock and he was somewhat graphic, I thought" it's Christmas Eve man!!! The problem is generally the preachers
Below are my thoughts on the matter of men not being involved in church. My biases are that I am a Christian man and have been missionary to the east.
1. Men only respect other men who are competent. When lispy, soft spoken pastors stand up and give a message to rough men who bleed and curse and are sore from hard work we don't listen because you haven't earned it.
2. Pastors flirt with the women and nag the men in the church on the women's behalf. Mother's day: you popped out a kid, you are perfect everyone worship you; Father's day: men do better, show attention to your wife and kids, do more work at home.
3. Emphasized sins are masculine tendencies , emphasized righteousnesses are female tendencies.
4. We demand honest measures. Right is right and wrong is wrong. Don't soften things to make us feel better. Be aggressive, direct, unyielding and completely honest.
5. Quit singing those lame songs about being broken and weak. We are not. We are not perfect and in respect to our own salvation we are powerless. But we are strong and well made. (this is a generally incorrect extension of David's comment that the Lord desires a contrite heart and a broken spirit. This is the state of repentance and man before God, not the general state of man in the face of the world)
6. Spend more time preparing your sermon. Preach earnestly and truthfully. Discuss criticism and dispute alternative views on grounds of logic. Present the greater historical significance and local cultural significance of the portion of scripture being taught.
7. Let men be leaders. We will do it if we must, but when we get nagged and badgered we shrug off the responsibility and let the less capable moaners take over.
8. Expect more of us.
9. Get to the point and don't waste our time. The check out lines at Home depot take a few minutes to get through; the checkout lines at Michaels take tens of minutes to get through.
there is one factor in the feminizing of the modern church that has been the main force, i personally suspect, that is driving men away from church. The worship music. Most modern worship music sounds like a teenage girl singing love songs to the boy she has a crush on. Long gone are the glorious songs like "when the saints go marching in", and those lofty and classical medieval sounding old hymns that so inspire one to images of infinite meaning and God's infinite glory. Another factor, i suspect, is the disconnectedness in most modern churches. People greet each other on Sunday mornings asking how their landscaping business or investment plan is going. We men, as a general rule, (leftist men notwithstanding) hate phoniness. Men as a species always crave genuineness which seems to be a difficult commodity to be had in most modern churches, i suspect
The Bible: husbands, give yourselves for your wife.
The Church: Amen.
Men: Amen
The Bible: wifes, submit to your husbands as to the Lord...
The Church: ... that's not exactly meant literally...
Men: this is fake Christianity. I'm out.
It's simple. Peterson attracts men audience because men want practical solutions to their problems. The Church attracts women because they generally want hope and faith.
It isn’t that men aren’t going, it’s that men have been chased away.
Advice at the 10:15 minute mark was excellent! Jordan Peterson says that bad parents, teachers and clinicians think the best way to make people brave and more mature is by protecting them. Jordan says emphatically “that is not the way it works!” Jordan says: “to make people braver and more mature is to encourage them to voluntary expose them selves to things that they are afraid of.” Wow! I wish my parents would have encouraged me to confront what I was afraid of.
I love when someone who is asked a difficult question, pauses, then says I don't know. I love that. I means he has given the matter some thought, and doesn't just want to bullshit his way though an answer.
Culturally much contemporary worship music is more appealing to women than men. A lot of men feel weird singing about their love for a particular man. It’s a touchy feeley, sticky gooey, warm ‘n cuddly precious moments sort of spirituality. The lights are dim, the music is slow, and the words are repetitive. A certain amount of this is probably OK but if it isn’t balanced with a focus on other aspects of God’s character it’s dangerously one dimensional. There’s a big difference between “A Mighty Fortress is Our God” and many contemporary worship songs. In Islam men are told that they are warriors in a battle against disbelief. That appeals to the warrior side of men. In contemporary Christianity the theme is exclusively God is Love. This is spoken of so much that people start believing Love is God.
"I think people should grow the hell up" = big round of applause. There's your reason why the church has lost its appeal; it treats adults like little kids who need to be told what to do.
On any given Sunday at a typical Orthodox Christian parish, the congregation will be representative of the male/female percentage in the general population, about 50/50. When Jordan Peterson suggests that perhaps the issue is that contemporary Christianity does not present a challenge to men, he appears to be spot on. Being a Christian in the ancient sense of the term is the most difficult thing in the world to do. "The kingdom of God suffers violence and the violent take it by force", Jesus said. The warfare which the Lord mentions here is not a warfare between one person and another; rather it is my warfare against my own inappropriate, sinful passions. A person who would say of someone else's sinful act, "Well, I would never do such a thing!", is someone who has not entered into the warfare with their own passions which brings appropriate humility.
The church I attend has a relatively high male attendance. I think Jordan is right about emphasizing responsibility and the strength to overcome. My pastor reminds us all the time about how God wants us to be successful and to have our households taken care of so that we can go out and take care of others in our community and bring heaven to earth. Before attending this church, I’d never heard religious people talk about the need to be successful in life. The emphasis was always on “give give give!”
Guy walks in inquiring about the loss of male church membership......leaves 25 minutes later with an existential crisis
You know, I think it's not only in America, it's the same in Poland. For me, in the Catholic church, the content is shallow in some sense, the priests are not brave, they don't comment on real struggles of people but repeat the same cliches. As Polish, I wad raised in Catholic traditions, yet only last year I found the Truth. Strong examples are difficult to find. It's the women who expect the Church to be lenient but we shouldn't be, we should expect more from people but also teach them the true wisdom of the Gospels in depth. For me that's the weakness of the Churches I have been to. My husband doesn't want to go there as well because it's shallow, the priests don't feel genuine. Why is that?
Peterson is the reason I go to Church!
On reason I can think of is that Men are not as social as Women. Men are much more solitary. If the church is becoming a social club, Men will avoid that.
I can tell you as a husband of a wife who goes to church, and as a person who was raised in church, taught the word of God extensively as a youth, and a young adult. Church today has been extensively feminized by the type of music and other things. Churches want to sometimes operate outside of the word of God. I’ve literally heard my wife’s pastor say from the pulpit, “ how can you expect God to answer your prayers when you can’t even be a faithful tither! As far as I know that is a false teaching. I tried to explain to my wife that is literally like bastardizing the blood of Jesus! It’s no different than saying the blood of Jesus is almost good enough for you! There’s only one thing you have to do so it can be good enough for you! Where she goes to church they really hammer home the tithe. The pastor’s Dad sits on the church board. The kind of thing you would think is a kind of conflict of interest. I saw this in many churches I grew up in and it really rubs me the wrong way. All of the holidays we celebrate Originated as a pagan holiday. Especially Christmas! I am not a Jehovah Witness either but they at least get that part right. I still pray and ask for forgiveness daily because I know we are all sinners. However I know there is a time coming, the Bible mentions it, where everyone will be made to take the mark, to buy sell or trade. The church however teaches we are going to be raptured. I don’t see this in scripture like every one else does though. I believe that message would not go over well with women, as they don’t like hearing bad things to come. Where we might be left with the decision to starve or face taking the mark of the beast, a chip of some sort? We now can see this as a real possibility and should be teaching it in the church! What if Jesus doesn’t come back like everyone thinks? He himself said “people will be looking to the heavens and asking where is the Lord and where is the promise of his coming! He also says that in those days there she’ll be tribulation such as never been and Walter those women who have little children in those days! This should not be left out of the teachings just because it is a hard message to except! Look all Jesus is disciples thought that they were going to be rapture too! However most of them died violent deaths, being crucified upside, down being sawed in half, boiled alive, and it is a horrible thing to talk about, but these things should be told to the church as the message of Jesus may cost some of us our life one day! If we choose to follow it! Sorry for going off on a tangent. I know all the stuff I talked about would not be very popular in church today..
“ They haven’t presented a sufficient challenge.”
I'll tell you why, Jordan knows what he is talking about. He explains. A church hasn't a clue, they fake it and just say believe and have faith. We want to understand,not just follow.
Let me add an observation. Far too many "women in church" love to assume the authority of God and beat men over the head with it. Demanding that men obey them as if they we're speaking for God. Pretty screwed up, but there you go....
I have a personal and observational theory on this subject.
In most churches there’s a system of Value/hierarchy in the church, this is pretty obvious when you look at the church leadership and so on.
But the next levels down is my focus, after church leadership you have elders, and then families with children, single mothers with children and than married couples, and than unmarried couples and lastly is single men.
Men are at the bottom of the value/hierarchy in the church.
The only way to gain value is by marriage, but there in lies another issue.
That 60% is mostly women either married, unmarried with children or elderly.
The marriage pool for men is very small and thus prospects are none existent in the 20-30 age range.
So combination of being under valued, along with no viable potential mates gives most men a sense of unwillingness to participate in the institution of church.
Why put value into something that doesn’t value you.
I have been wondering about this as well, but one very important thing I noticed, the more men in a church, the more vibrant, strong and effective the church is. I think men are a lot more practical, and we have to find a way to captivate the practicality and direct it into faith.
Give men something to think about and to do that is useful! Men work well when they are facing challenges together. We are builders and protectors and fighters. We carry weight and the burdens of others. Being forgiven is great and more wonderful than we could ever deserve but we still need to work, to move and to take on loads. When we dont we fall back into sin! Let them do it as brothers in arms. I had a men's prayer group that lasted 25 years and many of us would not have been able to get through many hard times without it but tbh it was only half the answer we needed to take on greater challenges - that of family, friends, work, community and more. The group was like a home base to return to each week! I see churches trying to do men's stuff once a month and while that enables connections it never goes much deeper than that. You are not going to war together meeting once a month, you are also not going to trust someone with your life that way either! It has to be weekly and it must be outside of that group meeting too!
Personally I have a great deal of respect for J Peterson. I'm very happy to hear his response to Post Modernism, the Radical Left, etc., and find much (most) of what he has to say to ring true. My concern is with something the representative of the Mosaic Christian Church says in his question. He mentions that JP has a "high view of Scripture". Perhaps the more current understanding of a "high view" is considerably less than it was 40 years ago. If one was considered (40 years ago) to have a "high view of Scripture" it would be assumed that the events found in Scripture are actual events with actual people involved. What I sense from JP is that a large part of those stories are not actual events, but mythological writings that convey a "truth" (archetypical truth). This would not have been considered a "high view of Scripture", but a rather "Liberal view of Scripture" just a couple of decades ago.
Hey, I am a Jordan Peterson fan, and I’m from India, I keep coming back to him to seek some intelligent insight that is firstly very fatherly, is because he seems like a Good father to have as a guide, and he is emotionally and spiritually connected to his belief, so connected, that it can be seen, I know for a fact that he believes in Jesus and God as a trinity and the fact that he Studied the Bible verse by verse. At the same time he’s a guide to the lost and dejected, so he’s able to reach even the most lost and rejected of people. But the church seems like it’s too stuck in being dogmatic and it doesn’t really always express the “fruits of the spirit” and many a time, Pastors/Church folk have a very Judgmental attitude towards the Young boys and men who really actually only need an understanding and non-judging father figure guiding them, and many a times the messages in church are very outward based, and based on what we ought to portray of ourself, but with Jordan, he’s being the good father like figure, he tells me to buck up, get my act together, but with love... and without judgement... that’s what it seems to me. And I feel he really wants to help me, like personally, like he took it on himself to help me, even though I didn’t ask... that’s just brilliant. Also, he’s wise, I honestly believe, in our time right now, He’s the only man I see Carrying the Light, and moving it forward. True to his belief, all the way!!
Our church in Las Vegas has many visitors. I notice a sharp difference in male response to receive Christ when the pastor uses the language of responsibility. Taking charge of your life, stepping up, being a leader for your family. When he talks about feelings and victimhood, more women respond.
Also, although I am not Mormon, there is a large population here in Las Vegas with a lot of positive male involvement. The men are told that they get to be priests in their teens with eternal responsibilities, and be called Elder when they are ready to take the full priesthood at 18 and go on mission for two years. Expectation and respect are married with responsibility. And this responsibility is for everyone not just pastors like the rest of Christendom. I personally believe it is Biblical for each of us to accept responsibility to share the gospel and volunteer with the church. We have struggled in the Christian church at large with the issue of not being so patriarchal in a tyrannical way that we forgot about all the good things about having strong men. This is why there are less men in church. Give them a sense of duty, responsibility, positions earned by respect and duty and a sense that they have the power to responsibility to effect change in the world.
"Any Ideal is a Judge".
The reason i don't go to church is i don't know of any church that tries to follow the will of God, instead of the traditions of men.
God Bless Jordan Peterson.
Maybe the reason he is so popular is that he explains things with great clarity, logic and directness. This is not always the case with the Bible. He doesn't rely solely on the scriptures for the morality and behaviour he advocates, but incorporates modern science and psychology. People are drawn to truths and (Western) science/medicine are based on observable facts. Why is he so popular with men? Well, he is a man and people generally relate better to others of the same sex.
Christian music is geared toward women, christian preaching is geared toward women, and christian social events are geared toward women. Men need a call to action not just an appeal to emotion. Men don't want to sing about being in love with Jesus. And men don't want to meet up just to share finger food and sip punch. If you want men in your church talk to your boys like men, tell them to grow the hell up. Make sure to incorporate songs that aren't romantic toward Christ. Have social events involving activities men like. Basket ball, bar-B-Q and such. Do not encourage video games in men's life, its an artificial challenge that supplants their need for a real challenge.
Thanks for posting this.
Mr. Peterson has a wonderfully sharp mind, and his insights are valuable. I do not say this to criticize, but to shine a light on another aspect of Christianity that isn’t mentioned in this presentation. It is simply this: The “First Generation Church” had an experience of/with God that was more direct, and less philosophical than the approach being talked about here. That experiential relationship with God is available to us today.
Interesting question and how he answers this. I also witnessed in my recent years that church is geared toward women and thin skinned men. The presentation is more psychological seminars than what the Bible says. I struggle to find a church at this time, not a perfect church, but one in the right way
Many times during the week I hear from men who have dropped out. Their reasons are more than interesting.
This resonated with me so much..I have been following Peterson for two years, he has changed my life. I have grown to appreciate scripture and the meaning that Peterson defines it by. I recently went to a church for a service, it was recommended to me for being open and grounding its teaching based on meaning and not just blind faith/preaching. Sadly I left with a feeling that thee was no depth, and what Peterson touched on here is amazing and read my mind. I wish there was more discussion and teachings based off of adopting values and responsibilities, not just this forcing Christ down your throat.
Just some honest feedback. Grew up Midwest Bible Belt and observed massive hypocrisy in church. Some of the most questionable people , regarding the golden rule, were the most active in church. There was a lot of good in church but it seemed outweighed by the jerks.
I think one difference might be men don't like being lied to, and women don't seem to mind.
This was a phenomenal question. I would like to see Dr. Peterson spend some serious time on this question and write a focussed monograph it.
Currently our culture fails to address men in a non condescending and meaningful way. Jordan Peterson does what a good pastor could. He addresses the problem men have. "What do I do to create meaning in my life?" Or to put it more simply, what "should" I do, and why should I do it. He breaks down the meat in a way that boys can digest to become men. He's humble and genuine. I wondered why he didn't become a pastor at some point. He's fiercely intelligent and witty.
Of course you have guys like me who ask questions like "Why can't faith healers regrow amputee limbs?" Or "Why did God drown the world for 40 days to kill off the sinners when he could create it in 6, and if he's perfect shouldn't evil be eradicated from earth after that?" So you need an intellectual pastor to address that kind of thing.
Qu-Why less men in church? (I made notes while listening) the answer was interesting and in alignment with other talks he gave about commitment generally
perhaps in a sentence ...
The church could issue a stronger challenge for men to live up to. Challenge men to work from strength not weakness.
Summary of dialogue - church perhaps stop focusing on control, more on integration. Not enough challenge for men and meaning of being a good man.
Focus on "meaning" vs "responsibilty". Antidote to Peter Pan syndrome adult male and non commitment. Wendy ages without Peter Pan who plays with the imaginative tinker bell. Key is adopting responsibility. It's not just self esteem it's accepting responsibility to fight back against malevolence and chaos.
Say the words (logos) and commit. Christ says Pick up your cross and follow me, confront malevolence and fight to win (whether it's in your heart or in others). People become braver by facing the things that challenge them not by external protection or safe spaces. Re Faust, mentions Mephistopheles nihilism hell and suicide. Confront devil in the desert. Alternative is the voluntary acceptance of 'being' and working to be strong and optimistic.
Sometimes the worst things happen to the least deserving person (innocent) . But there's more to you than you think. Answer?? Not genocide or suicide. The answer is turn & face it. Open up to the full catastrophe of existence. Be the change that matters. Then on suffering, tragedy and death beds; authentically playing their part, brave and proper, brings people together. Ask yourself did I bring everything to bear here, did I face it truthfully, was I 100% in (rarely). But ask honestly did I sit sat on the fence with no commitment. The sorriest people in world were the 'peter pans'who sat on the fence, don't be that person. Don't encourage them.
More power to you brothers and sisters
For a while the most popular interview on Focus on the Family was the interview between Dr. Dobson and Dr. Donald Joy of Asbury Seminary where they addressed this issue. For a starter, sitting in a pew being preached at puts men in a feminine role. To some extent it castrates them. Men are not empowered in most churches, they are dis-empowered. As I remember it, just when boys reach adolescence, they are confronted with the choice of being feminized in the church or leaving the church to become men. Not a good choice to have to make. When many men read the book WILD AT HEART they instinctively left the church to go after real manhood. As a contrast to this, Jesus did not set his men in pews and preach to them. Lecturing wasn't really much of an activity for him. He led his men out into the world into a grand adventure. Dah. Frankly, most pastors aren't very masculine themselves and are threatened by real men who they fear and run away from and even drive off. I've seen it.
I'm surprised you have no comments. I'm new to Peterson, his work and ideas. But he is phenomenally in touch with modern society. Millions of people are listening to him. Pastor, you did well to ask the question, and I'm glad he chose to respond. While I hold a different theological bent than Peterson, my work has led me to fully agree with and say the same that the way he repurpose tragedy is to convert it into meaning. Living with meaning or purpose requires sorting out your past, articulate your narrative, confront your fears, map out your future in light of your purpose, and risk to live it. Men will sign up all day long to do this if we call them to it, and show them a way to get there.
That was a wonderful question and thanks for sharing his response. So to summarize, we need more of a "be strong and of good courage" message to attract men into church. Quite a contrast to a "health and wealth" gospel or a "greasy grace" or "sloppy agape" message, isn't it?
A couple of things I’d put forward. The early Church .. pre Constantine, always tended to attract females and slaves more than male citizens. In modern times there could be one ( amongst many) reasons that women tend to go to Church more than men. Men tend to, but not always, do longer hours at work than women. Sometimes the woman partner will go to Church on a Sunday, when the male stays at home doing some maintenance or relaxing if they’re not working
Why aren't more men there?
1. Sermons revolve around feelings, and give very little substance, or real solution.
2. Sermons beat men over the head, no matter how well they are living-- and all but deify women. Boys and girls that are listening get the message, loud and clear.
3. What little instruction men DO get revolves completely around women.
If you doubt t what I've said here, check the usual difference between Mother's Day sermons and Father's Day sermons.
In my many decades of life I have been in dozens of churches, just visiting, part time as well as full time membership, due to both attempting to find a full time church, but also from traveling with my job.
Some years ago my attention was piqued and I began to pay more and more specific attention to church atmosphere and overall demeanor not just of individual people but of the congregation as a whole.
I realized that the church in America had become gynocentric. Not just "feminized". But actually, contrary to written scripture, Feminist and elevating of women above men. And this matches the general social norms of secular America.
As far as I'm concerned the church in America is dead. It's owned lock, stock and barrel by the secular Feminists by way of the "Christians" who have bowed their knee to Feminism and the Feminist gender supremacy cult.
Christians have become so saturated and immersed in Feminist cult dogma that they are consciously rejecting written scripture.
I'm not meaning to say that Christians have done and are doing it intentionally. But it is the result of 50 years of saturation of Feminism in every aspect and avenue of life, beginning with organized education of children, both public and private. 95% of teachers are women, 95% of teachers are publicly confessed Feminists. But Christians, as a whole, have failed to recognize this issue and have failed to reject it.
Ask any confessed, born-again-Christian about verses like Ephesians 5:22 and you will witness a near knee-jerk response of "Well, husbands are supposed to sacrifice themselves". You will witness a complete avoidance, an actual aversion to the verse and a near instantaneous accusatory finger pointing at men. I had one pastor glance around nervously, I suppose to see if anyone had seen him talking to me, and he turned on his heel and fast-walked away.
I have witnessed and experienced this in dozens of churches in multiple states. This is not a localized phenomenon.
Men already deal with the soul grinding and life crushing hell of Feminism all day, every day in every facet of life. Why should we also inflict it on ourselves in what is supposed to be the life giving, life affirming sanctuary of church?
No one dare comment? I am a man and I do not attend church. Why? In order for me to attend and not merely attend passively, but participate, I must have some sense that it will be worthwhile. If church is not empowering toward a more fulfilling life then why go?
Dr. Peterson amplifies Christ's existence and it's psychological ramifications for us. That was a beautiful question that allowed Jordan to answer in a way that was far beyond what any of us might have imagined, don't you think?
It's a good question. I'm not sure of the answer, but I'm part of a church and a fellowship of 2700 churches worldwide that has a very healthy 50-50 male/female split, and I have also noticed this is unusual in the modern Christian church.
What do we do differently? The main thing I would say is we simply take God at his word. Specifically, God says he wants men, not women to lead, we simply obey. There is a spiritual dynamic released in doing so that attracts men to fulfill that natural, God-given inclination to thrive in masculine pursuits. That also retains men, and rewards so many to be able to get free from the lies dominating our current society, that would have this, and all Godly intents flipped on their ear and hog-tied.
There is a natural inclination in men to stand down, or even walk away, rather than compete with or come under the authority of a woman. This is not chauvinism or failure to be woke, this is the natural consequence of the way God made us. God will and has raised up women to lead where men wouldn't, but this is not the way it ought to be. And because our society has been so largely feminized by this strategy of hell, there is a real lack of men willing to be men, and stand against this, which perpetuates the problem.
The disparity of men is really just an extension of the same trend throughout all of society, that as women gradually enter into positions of authority and competition, men are slinking away to Mama's basement to play video games.
Amazing what a people can do when they simply trust God!
I like to ask this question. What kind of sermons were preached before WW2 broke out. Because men back then knew that they had to do something to stop a madman from gaining control of the whole world. These were not super men. Just average every day guys but the difference was that they felt that a job had to done. If we had the kind of messages that are being preached in today's churches back then we would be in a world of hurt.
TL;DR: Church isn't tough enough. It's so gentle and cozy and soft that there is no risk, no pain, no threat. If you want men in your pews, give them not only something to fight for, but also to resist. Do be aware that the women will not like the sea change one bit. If you want an idea of this in practice, check out Mt. Athos and the Orthodox Church; even today its membership is more male and families.
How about having some hard standards? The churches have become just as gynocentric as mainstream culture. Since women are 60% (and probably higher) of church population, you're inclined to tell them what they want to hear so they don't leave. Women hate standards because they really don't like the responsibility necessarily implied by assuming them. Well, they do like hearing about standards that only apply to men. Just don't tell them that it's not okay to rationalize why they are destroying their family or they'll find another church. She will find a preacher to tell her that what she's doing is great with Jesus.
Men don't need to lie to themselves as much. When we do wrong, we just shake hands with the devil. We don't need to reinvent reality to justify ourselves. Women need to be "happy" about it and the church is more than happy to tell them whatever they want to hear so they will stop crying.
Its fascinating how he analyzes archetypes and symbols.And always inspirational. Thanks for sharing this.
Wow! Yet another staggering level of wisdom from my man, Jordan! Wisdom, wisdom everywhere! Wisdom, wisdom in your hair!
I think it has more to do with that fact women tend to think more emotionally while men tend to set aside emotion when making choices. Both are valid and very useful when used in tandem as you can't go through life thinking in only one area alone. Religion makes emotional appeals to get you to buy into it which works more with people who think more emotionally than rationally. Men will rationalize the religion and find it wanting to some degree not finding as much value to the emotional pull that women would find to be more to their draw.
Why do churches fail to attract males? Answer seems to be right there in front of you, it is centered around feminine characteristics. You sit and preach peace, but fail to see the honor in strength, generally. Also, the crowd in which gets attracted to church are those who cant be mean, not because of their moral greatness, but out of insecurity, cowardly, or lack of ability to be mean. There is no honor in not punching me if you dont, and cant, bare the courage to punch me and face the consequences, but the honor comes from the ability to do so and then restraining yourself from doing it . Thirdly, churches are largely filled with hypocrites. They were when jesus was preaching, and are today. No one pushes people farther away from jesus than those who claim to be the tolerant, loving Christian. I know many a good Christians, the best man i have ever had the privilege of knowing went to churches twice a week, but he never once claimed to be something other than what he was. He didnt tell everyone how much he cared and loved them because it was not the truth. He loved his wife, family, friends and country. The ones who go around saying they love everyone, tend to be those who love no one more than themselves because just like the sjws, they do it for moral virtue. They are the first to sign up to teach religion class and the first to sign someone up to be kicked out of religion class without ever giving any care in the world for that individual. That is why churches are failing. People are seeing through the facade. My family still goes, and i will too take my kids, BUT only because i think it will help integrate them into society.
I just started. You seem to feel there to be an importance to GET men into church, not to add to the church. I don't go to church, but I am a Christian. Nothing sets my teeth on edge more than some chick PRAYING for everything, having no thoughts, allegedly not thinking of anything, but praying, listening for that still small voice, and unlike myself, never in question whether that voice is God, or the bicameral mind. Christians grasping hands, and clenching eyes shut, making an effort to be sure that they are observed praying. The artificial speech, especially in church. I pray constantly, conversational, and genuinely. I often use the pattern of the Lord's prayer, and never say it the same way twice, rethinking it each time. I struggle with, "Hallowed be thy name," thinking that my human mind cannot grasp why a name can be holy, or that holy, or the significance of a name being more set apart and special than I can grasp. I have an interpretation of one commandment, not to take the name of the Lord in vain, and I don't think it has anything to do with, "B'gosh," as the clothing ad used to read. To me, a duck hunter on the lake blasts a 12 gauge hole in the aluminum hull of the canoe, bails water in vain with the teaspoon from his pocket. So many Christians are so proud of using social shaming to change someone else's life, but do deplorable acts, such things as making up extra rules for Christians to follow. Jesus came eating and drinking, but a member having a beer with dinner gets ostracized. Those take the name of the Lord, but they do so in vain, His name does nothing for them, shows people in the world that taking His name has no value. How many churches want you warming their pew swats for that tithe money? I am so much happier being away from the church clique. True, my record was set a couple months ago, 26 days between my regular social connection, where I say, "Hello," "No," (I don't want to pay 10¢ for a grocery bag), and, "Good day." There is church, and there is a life in Christ, I need the latter, but I am cautious about the former, especially learning the level of infiltration into the church by the enemy. I learned that even Billy Graham, turns out he was a 33° Mason.
This was interesting as a minister in a church with recovery houses. We have sho many Pan hearted in attendance it's incredible! While they're being given the word they're always thinking about how much easier is was on the street until they're found dead or permanently disabled. Change? "Not today, I have plenty of time."
This is similar in the UK but I have recently been going and reintroduced God into my life 🇬🇧
As a male Christian myself I can say that it's hard for me to go to church. Reason being is because I feel very out of place whenever I do go. It feels like I have to hold myself to these impossibly high standards that are uncharacteristic for me. I think what a lot of churches need to start doing is focus more on the ugly side of who we are, though not entirely. Too many churches focus on only the bible and reading through it, which isn't bad in itself. But a lot of people may have a hard time getting it. Because of how different it was back then it may be hard to humanize people within that time. I think it'd be good for people within the church to be more open about their shortcomings that they have in life, that could allow for more development instead of going through the motions of worship into reading scripture. Maybe a good way would be to have open discussion instead of one guy talking to the rest of the audience, though that may be difficult depending on the size of the church itself
Brilliant. Thank you. Great question btw - immensely helpful.
Part joke part truth, but men already get preached at enough as is, so there's little need to go to church for more.
Very sufficiently and intellectually answered. As we have come to expect of him. I still do hope that he won't be found wanting when Jesus is revealed as judge
Thank you for posting this Mosaic
Well! Clearly us single Christian's need to start attending more Peterson lectures :). God knows we don't meet any in our churches...
Thank you so much for sharing this
Men like JP because he passes down wisdom about life that isn’t being passed down by their elders. And society as a whole is lacking the passing down of wisdom on how to walk through the world in a way that makes sense. We have so many social justice warriors today because of the lack of wisdom passed down, the breakdown of the traditional family, and victimhood politics. People are not being taught to be rational adults. They are being taught to act like children who need to be taken care of by the state. But there is a deep well of desire in men to fulfill their innate role as adults and leaders.
Because they are getting wiser...
Thanks very much for posting this!
I live in the South and occasionally visit black churches and can tell you this is a problem there as well (more women than men). Once when I was attending church at Bethesda on St. Helena Island, the preacher even talked about this during his sermon!
Im commenting as I listen(I know. I know) and Im only 90 seconds in, but I think 2 things deter men from church; to much(perception at least) of a finger wagging "thou shalt not" attitude in church, AND the distaste for, again at least percieced, hypocrasy. I think church should be-"Come here and connect with God, He will give you direction and some rules when you need them but his 1st concern is the connection and his 2nd concern is FORGIVING YOU for all your mistakes as you TRY to do whats right. He knows you will make mistakes!!! Like a parent knows their kid will make mistakes whenever the child tries to master any endeavor. You have to make mistakes. He gave us free will for all kinds of reason but part of the equation is YOU have to come to Him to make the connection. He doesnt say "BECOME PERFECT AND THEN COME TO ME" He says
""Come to Me as you are making yourself the BEST yourself you can be. 👍
Wow, I agree on the negative effects of churches trying to make things easier for people. "Welcome all people and have them proclaim belief that Jesus is the son of God". That's too simple, too easy of an thing to do to obtain heaven. If churches dig deeper, emphasize more about the difficulty in the journey of following God and what that means for you to do, I suppose more men would go to church. Emphasize carrying your cross, overcoming temptation, doing what is right, rather than preach only forgiveness, endless mercy, and acceptance. Thanks for asking Peterson this question.
Start preaching. What is in the Bible. And ask what does God want .It is not happy wife happy life . It is Happy God happy life! !!
What an awesome question for JP!!!!!
Thank you for the excellent question!
Thanks for posting.
Thank you, this is very helpful.
Thanks for sharing!
I think they have to provide a sufficient challenge... It's so true that it hurts good.
Amazing
Thank you for this
Church appeals to the heart, Peterson appeals to the mind.
Thanks for sharing
I'm an atheist, and videos like this make me wish I was Christian.
Honestly, I suggest going to mass. I'm a protestant, but I envy rhe original church structure
Hey Fionn, we would love for you to join Mosaic for one of our online broadcasts. We are passionate about helping people of all spiritual backgrounds learn what it means to have a real, honest, open, relationship with Jesus and investigate what that means.
I think one reason we don’t have a lot of men in the church because we make Jesus look and people in the Bible weak. When Jesus was a strong leader and man. When they were gambling in his fathers house he drove them out. I think the church should put more strength in it and men will come
'Virtue is attained through strength and not weakness.
Not control but INTEGRATION...'
ty for this post
ty for this amazing insight!! I practice Buddhism and we deal with a similar problem!
I think that more women in the church is a world wide thing. In Brazil we are also more women and in Holland we are also majority .
And he said that he did not know the answer! Then God began to speak through him. A blessing for all. Thank you, Jordan Peterson.
Thank you so much for this video! Much needed!
good question..... thank you for posting..... perhaps many men don't like to be lectured or advised by clergy with whom they have little in common? just a thought....Church is also seen as feminine by many men and not manly.... all the best from Bellows Falls, Vermont
Good job!
I’m a man and I stopped going to church years ago. It is a shallow place, filled with adult children either terrified, spiritually lazy or docile. They want someone to tell them what to think because they never learned how to think. They want an almighty parent to tell them everything will be alright. Someone to take care of their guilt and hurt in the now. Someone to tell them they will live forever doing whatever one does in heaven. And
to be told they are Vindicated, and forgiven no matter how many times they cease to change, and those who don’t believe as they do, will be punished. And they don’t want to burn in hell forever and ever and ever and ever. The church is a manmade institution, politicized, commercialized and hidebound. Inclusive yet exclusive.
That was Sensational Jordan Peterson
Your battle is never with the devil, it's with the Lord. He's calling you to die and you don't want to. Another point I'd like to make is, he's right, the Church is luke warm. When the Church isn't "All in" why should the men who attend it? Where are the Fasting and Praying Pastors? You want to be a leader? Then lead.
I trully love this man
That's the best answer anyone could possibly provide.
Last time I went to church about 12 years ago was a Christmas Eve service my wife talked me into going,the preachers sermon was about original sin and sex out of wedlock and he was somewhat graphic, I thought" it's Christmas Eve man!!! The problem is generally the preachers
Thank God for JP.
Stop castrating Men ! For your own good
Excellent question and answer. Thanks.