Should the Irish Defence Force be Better Funded? | The Tonight Show
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- Опубліковано 4 лип 2024
- Claire Brock is joined by Paul Murphy TD, Broadcaster Alison O'Connor, Barry Cowen TD and Managing Director Feargal Purcell to discuss the possibility of increased funds for Ireland's Defence Forces and the legitimacy of Irish neutrality.
Paul Murphy TD is very concerned with the increased spotlight put on Ireland's position on neutrality. He believes a "shock doctrine" is taking place across Europe to increase public appeal of increased militarisation. He believes Leo Varadkar is using this to "do away" with Irish neutrality.
Alison O'Connor thinks that Ireland has not been politically neutral when it comes to the Ukraine crisis. She thinks that there needs to be a conversation about Irish neutrality, however, now is not the time with the Russian invasion looming over the public's head.
Alison points out that the Defence Forces are heavily underfunded. She finds it ironic that there are talks of putting €3 billion towards Irish defence considering this gross underfunding of late.
Barry Cowen TD believes there needs to be a massive investment put into the wellbeing of our Defence Forces. Barry points out that neutral countries have a right to defend themselves with non-lethal weapons. He believes we should be thankful we have a means that we can protect ourselves.
Claire asks the panel what they think about the possibility of Ireland joining NATO.
Feargal Purcell believes we need to "tap the breaks" in conversations when it comes to neutrality. He suggests we solve the problem that is in front of us first. He states we cannot have conversations about NATO or neutrality in the context of a fraught environment.
He suggests using the Citizen's Assembly as a vessel to have this conversation. He points out how it helped have conversations about Marriage Equality and the Repeal the 8th movement.
Feargal makes reference to Ireland serving under NATo missions before. Claire reminds the panel that that was in a peacekeeping capacity.
Paul believes we should ensure that our Defence Forces stop living in poverty, which is their current condition. He points out that even if the government went with the middle option of funding which is €500 million, that would be 2,000 homes not being built.
He does not believe we should give money to the "dealers of death and destruction" who would use it for international issues when we have a cost of living crisis at home.
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You can have a strong army and still be neutral
Absolutely, in fact, you *need* a strong military to be neutral.
It's non-alignment, not complete disarmament.
Hear Hear!
Or stop relying on other to pretect you
Maybe increase the pay and conditions or you won't have a Defence Force anymore.
It is unbelievable how many people have left the defence forces in the last few years and who haven't been replaced. They need to realise as well that the army got a really bad name over the years and people are more chosy now when it comes to career choice so they're less likely to look to the defence forces as a career.
@@keithp6699 The problem isn't recruitment, there's plenty joining.
The problem is so many get treated like dirt by the senior ranks and leave within 2 or 3 years.
My grandparents came over from Ireland to Britain after the war, and while that may make me a plastic paddy to some, I love Ireland and always take an interest in what's happening there. For what it's worth, my opinion is that Ireland should maintain its neutrality, but there should be a marginal increase in defence spending - and I'm not advocating Ireland necessarily buys American or British either. Defence spending I believe should range between 0.75% and 1% of GDP, and not 0.25% like it has been in recent years.
Ireland needs the capability to independently police its Exclusive Economic Zone by air and by sea, otherwise it is independent in name only. This needn't require spending a fortune.
As an island nation, Ireland doesn't need a large peacetime army, but an increase in funds would be welcome (if for no other reason than to sufficiently pay personnel across the board), but I would strongly advise the Irish Air Corps be given the investment it needs. I would advocate the procurement of the Leonardo M346FA, an exceptional Italian light multi-role jet for the price. The procurement of 26 of these aircraft would be nice - symbolically one for each county of the Republic, though I am aware that there's no room for romantic sentimentality when it comes to defence. Perhaps 6-12 would suffice, but it is a bit thin. Another option could be to lease the more capable (and expensive) Swedish Gripen fighter, like countries such as Hungary and the Czech Republic are doing. Both options are sound in my opinion.
In regards to the Navy, surprisingly I would argue not much needs doing here. The Samuel Beckett class ships are fantastic offshore patrol vessels, and all 4 have been built very recently. The 2 Roisin class vessels seem more than up to the job. The only problem is no matter how good a ship is, it can't be in two places at once. More hulls in the water might be necessary.
In an ideal world a few more ships would be grand considering that the EEZ goes out for 200 miles which is a large area to sufficiently police and patrol (especially with any semblance of force) and the Irish coastline is over 4000km.
I'll be interested to see what happens going forward. Love to the Emerald Isle from Britannia 🇮🇪🇬🇧
I welcome the fact that your are interested in the land of your forefathers even if you are British yourself. 🙂
The Irish Defence Forces need to both better funded, and hugely expanded.
The Irish Naval Service and Aer Corps need to become significant services.
We are at least as well off as Austria, Sweden or Finland.
These are neutral nations which take their obligations, as neutral nations, seriously.
We need to get serious about what the term 'Neutral' actually means, and what we need to spend, in terms of money and commitments, to qualify for that definition.
At the moment, we CANNOT even identify aircraft, surface ships or submarines in our own Exclusive Economic Zone(EEZ), never mind intercept them or deter them.
At best, Paul Murphy TD is, on the evidence of his statements, one of those people defined by Lenin as 'Useful Idiots'....
Ireland's EEZ is not Irish airspace. It is international airspace and all aircraft and ships are permitted to pass through international airspace and international waters according to international law
@@mijicmugendo
I never said otherwise.
However, that does NOT mean that we should not have the ability to identify and track aircraft, surface vessels and submarines in that area.
At the moment, we don't even have the primary radar to see, never mind identify, aircraft that have turned their transponders off.
Our Naval Service is, in terms of its ability to find and track submarines, pre-Second World War.
@@gloin10
I agree, so lets put in top of the range military radar.
Why would we need to track submarines, I'm not against it, but why? British submarines have done more damage and taken more lives along Irish coast lines than Russian subs ever have and no one ever called for them to be tracked and do you really want to spend billion and billions on sonar sensors in Irish waters when even the IDF have stated that any war involving Russia attacking Ireland was fanciful.
Most people haven't the slightest clue about real Irish defense, they just want shiny new toys so that they can play with the cool kids and that childish behaviour is being used by politicians to try and bounce Ireland into NATO.
That will never happen.
@@mijicmugendo
When an enemy surrounds Ireland by the seas which at present would only take two destroyer class vessels and about 1000 troops to invade the mainland.
Can't give any more money to the defences forces the politicians have grabbed as much as they can with out being labeled dishonest
Got more Irishman serving in the British Armed Forces than the Irish Defence Force.
They can stay there
@@mijicmugendo whys that?
@@benson3710
Because we don't want them back ! I would remove their Irish citizenship if it was up to me.
@@mijicmugendo
"We"
Who is "We"
Definitely increase the funding and pay of the irish defence forces
There's more civil servants in the DOD than soldiers in the army.
An island nation on the western fringes of Europe that doesn't have a functioning Naval Service or Defence Force in general. No air interdiction capabilities (yet) and a morale crisis around pay & conditions that have been talked about since the 80s. Nothing will change.
Ireland, the new British protectorate.
just DO NOT ask America for help.... when russia invades...
Russia doesn’t have the force projection capability to invade so far away and America would only supply arms and intel.
Russia can't even invade a country next door to it properly, let alone Ireland
Or Russia if the anglos invade
what wrong with have a proper discussion about defense in this country, what are people afraid of. yes pay the personal . but we need to stop scaremongering and discuses what we need the defense force to do
There's absolutely nothing wrong with it. I think like in the run up to the 8th the politicians have made it a taboo topic which no party wants to touch. A citizens assembly is not a bad idea as it will depoliticize the conversation and force a rational discussion on the subject. This notion of pretending to be neutral while having an extremely limited ability to defend ourselves (unlike the countries that are actually neutral) is unsustainable. And yes, give the personnel a proper wage and decent working conditions.
You want the truth then of what Ireland needs.
It needs to spend about €50 billion on its military infrastructure, spend about €12 billion per year on its military and then recruit about 50,000 troops.
That means having about 80 fighter jets at a minimum, air defence system, radar system, multiple naval bases and ports.
Irish people are living in a fantasy and do not want to face up to reality.
Ireland needs about 200 fighter jets, about 12 naval ships and about 50000 serving personnel. That would cost about 2.5% of gdp and is a normal defence budget which in Irelands case would be 15 billion per year. And that would require a 50 billion up front expenditure.
Simply put YES.
I can’t even believe this is a question.
If nothing else, there should be at least enough money put aside to adequately pay defense force members
If Ireland was to spend 2 % of its gdp it would offer more pay and a much larger and more capable defence force.
@@Art-is-craft Even one percent, I calculated even the GNI, not counting the over inflated gdp, and even one percent would be enough for a capable navy, army and even squadrons of jets for the air corps. 2 percent would already put us on par with most minor NATO countries
@@CondeDeBarca
Irelands GDP is about right for the level of goods exported. Current exports are in excess of 200 billion and imports are about 130 billion. The 2.5% of GDP is an ok and acceptable figure. Current health expenditure is 3.8% of GDP.
@@Art-is-craft Definitely bearing in mind we have no existing defensive pact with any other country
We are the back door into Europe. We need a defence force that can defend off any and all. We have been made a joke by this government when it comes to the defence Forces of this country. When fishermen were better able to stand up agenst the Russians of the Irish Coast. If the Russians had decided to invade Europe ireland would be the first to go We would be taken over in hour's not day's or weeks 😢😢😢
Ireland is not and has never been neutral. The idea that the country has been is nonsense. Ireland is in many was comparable to Canada. Canada's armed forces are among the least capable in NATO and Canada spends amongst the lowest of its GDP among NATO countries on defence. Why is this so? Well, because the USA is next door. There has been no imaginable threat to Canada since from the US since just before the US entered the First World War. Canadians understand that the US's interests mean they would have to defend Canada against any external aggressor. Ireland has been in the same position since 1922. Any foreign power that threatened the security of Ireland would also threaten that of the UK - even if Northern Ireland did not exist - and the UK would be compelled to come to Ireland's defence; by the way this is not true of any EU country. The difference between Canadians and we Irish? Most Canadians accept that reality while most Irish chooses to live in fantasy lah-lah land and delude themselves they live in a neutral country. For the purposes of defence, Ireland is essentially a protectorate of the UK. If we do not like that for historical reasons, we could certainly join NATO, and if the UK's membership of that organisation is a problem, then we should champion an EU military architecture. Either way, we are likely to see foreign troops based or regularly training on our soil.
Canada has geography as a defence. Ireland had it in WW2 but in WW3 missiles, long range aircraft and a western naval invasion are not defended by geography.
We need to start taking Defense seriously and have a full defense pact with Britain.We need in Ireland to stop taking it for granted Britain will protect us.
In WW3 there is no guarantee that Britain and America will be able to defend Ireland.
Make love not War ❤
I sereved in the Army reserve (62nd mp Coy....since disbanded) and i remember my company commandant once stated "we DONT have an army,we have a defence force which is NOT up to standard and is NOT fit for purpose"......that says it all right there.
Look I’m an irish american (3rd generation american) who serves in the US Military. Kinda whacky that ireland can’t even police its own territory and rely on its former colonizers for air defense.
As an air defender, ireland needs to significantly invest in homeland security. The David Sling system is an excellent platform to combat air/mission threats. There needs to be a ground based radar complex. I would heavy suggest the american TIPY-II. Ireland is actually pretty well off on ground level air defense.
Ireland needs to invest in replacing the pirahna iiiH and I would suggest the CV90 or just the pirahna V. Ireland also needs to buy interceptors to deter threats from any aggressor and the saab line of jets are a solid choice. Strategic airlift is something lacks, either a small fleet of CN295 to capitalize off of familiarity and parts interchangeability or a few A400Ms (3-4) would be the best bet as it not only serves a humanitarian role but a role to quickly insert forces into a hotspot or zone.
As an outside looking in, ireland does need nato. They need to modernize its aircorps and naval branch, they need to fix the pay issues which I understand is a main issue.
If Ireland was to spend 2% of its gdp on its military it would increase the defence budget 10 fold.
We need more rainbow flags, feminists and trans soldiers!! That will show them Russians.
😂👍
Are you on drugs? Russians!
@@mijicmugendo most of the US/UK undersea fibre optic cables go through Irish waters. being vital NATO infrastructure these are a major target for Russia (made all the more easier to target by the fact Ireland has little military power and is not part of NATO) so yes the Republic of Ireland should expect more Russian incursions into its waters and air space
@@lightfootpathfinder8218 man's got a point but right now we made the Russians run away with fishermen but I don't think we'll be that lucky again
@@thedragongamer6767 I agree. I think Ireland needs to build up it's military capability (especially the naval service and air corps) I can't really see an alternative tbh
So, we are discussing a situation where we cannot defend our airspace, our land space, and our really important, sea space. And, we are talking about protecting our neutrality????????? If we cannot do any of those key principles for the defence of our 'Independent' nation, we are a total joke. The Department of Defence has systematically for the last 40 years that I have served my country, systematically run down the importance of the nation's defence. They have essentially cancelled the broad local reach of the RDF, and reduced the number of Brigades available for our nation's defence. As for Paul Murphy, what will you do when Russians take over Dun Laoighre or some other lucrative spots in Dublin, will you expect our neighbours to jump in to help us when Russian bombers invade our airspace and we have no deterrent???
That man talks absolute nonesense, Weapons can be built right here in Ireland, You do not have to pay some forigners triple the price to Have a fantastic surface to air missile, radars and other things the millitary needs.
3 billion in this day and age will get you notting. If there serious they would have to at least spend 10 billion to start things off. Seven or 8 the next year winding it down in afew years to 3 billion annually per year
Lets close all schools and hospitals while we are at it
Ya need to be real with it right now ireland ain't in the best financially and especially with all the ukraine people we have taken in we have spread are selves very thin and right now yea we can give a little money to the irish defence forces but we need to think long term because we still need a functioning country so we kinda do need the hospitals and schools but right now the educational system needs a big rework aswell
@@mijicmugendo not really Irelands gdp is currently 418 billion a couple billion won’t really effect anything unless the people running your country are a bunch money mismanaging idiots 😂
@@mijicmugendo
There will not be any schools or hospitals If Ireland is invaded. You cannot use the excuse of school budgets for the fact that the Irish government does not spend enough on defences.
Pual Murphy would anchor our entire defense system, or lack of as the case is now, on books he's read. Chomsky, Orwell, and now, Maelanie Klien. It's frightening. He.reads them, and then tries to hammer everything he encounters into whatever they said. Not great!
One cannot honestly discuss neutrality when one's sovereign air defence is within the hands of another more powerful nation.
Just look at the militaries of other truly neutral nations and then try to tell me Ireland is not a great pretender: Switzerland, Austria, India.
You can peacekeep for the UN until pigs fly or pull future rapists from the Straits of Gibraltar.....but self defence, real self defence, by land air and sea comes with expenditure of a nation's treasure.
Don't lie to yourself because soon another Irish Air Corps helicopter might drop one of its doors upon your empty head.
I love my country, but the defence forces would be about effective against an aggressive power as a wet noodle
If you're thinking one on one against the russian army, no of course not. But we're an island nation, the russian army can't get to us. The main threats to us are subs using our waters to spy on NATO subs or their ships messing with undersea internet cables which are close to our coastline. All russia has to do is cut those lines in ONE location and all internet traffic from Europe to North America stops. No more stock market, no more banking and so on. All we need is enough ships and planes to watch over our coast and chase away any subs, not fight the whole russian navy, and THAT we can easily afford if we were serious about playing a meaningful role in European defense.
We need to deter them, nothing more.
Hence why Ireland needs about 200 fighter jets and 50000 strong defence force.
Irish security is protected by NATO. The question is if Ireland joins and contributes or doesn’t and doesn’t.
Murphy... the posh champagne socialist!
This guy got russian money
Can't attract people to an organization that is not attractive #betterpay
No to NATO always
If you say no to NATO (I agree with you we should not join NATO) you must agree with an increase in Defence Spending surely?
F FreeState Army West Brits
"west Brits" ??