How good is the Genoese Crossbow? (AoE2)
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- Опубліковано 18 чер 2024
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Analysis and discussion about the Italian's anti-cavalry unique unit: the Genoese Crossbow.
0:40 Genoese Crossbow overview
2:35 vs ranged units
3:45 vs cavalry
6:10 vs infantry
7:10 vs siege
7:44 Imperial Age upgrades
8:25 vs ranged units
9:38 vs melee units
10:00 vs cavalry
11:05 Final thoughts
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Game: Age of Empires II Definitive Edition - Ігри
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i have a queston. what % of all hits in AOEII (or any subset of the game) do the minimum 1 damage? thats quite important as this is a low HP, low damage game, so that 1 damage, combined with good macro, can make a substantial difference.
Based on their appearance I feel they should be given an extremely high frame delay but a relatively average reload speed. That it takes them a while before they start shooting but they are fairly tanky to compensate.
That strange realization that it's just as calmly enjoyable listening to SpiritOfTheLaw advertise SurfShark as listening to him discuss AOE2
Italians overview incoming 👀
I knew this would be the top comment 11😅
Just thought the same
YES, FINALLY!
Waiting on the Japanese re-review
My first thought when I read the title 😅
Clearly the higher wood cost is paying for that shield they carry around.
Every new Spirit of the Law video makes me want to play AoE2 again.
You should it’s better than it ever has been! I’ve played since 2006
Do it
Well last vid made me wanna play AoM
Do it!
@@lucas67898 I've played since 1999, and it was one of my favorite games. Few years ago I came across SotL videos and bought Definitive Edition and started playing more often, but not every day. His videos makes me want to launch game once more, because I love the graphics and gameplay.
Worst part is that despite showing shield still lag in pierce armour
The best defense is a good offense, so I guess they have a good defense against cavalry archers lol
If you haven't already done so, research the history of the Genoese crossbowmen. It was actually a team of two - one crossbowmen, another man carrying a shield and spear/pike. The era of pike and shot warfare is truly fascinating
@@chrisbackhouse5730 how was their performance against cavalry in that era ?
@jaikumar848 they were supposedly good against enemy cavalry forces due to the shield that made the horse baulk. I think there's a video on them at sandhroman on youtube somewhere
7:36 an anticavalry unit and an antigunpowder unit against a civ that has neither lol
Xolotol and Slinger:
@@perrypougins379slinger is not gunpowder tho. And the slinger has bonus damage against condotiero
@@perrypougins379 Those are Aztecs, who don't get slingers, only the Incas do.
I'd rather call them anti-cavalry and anti-gunpowder specialists
While they specialize in countering those two unit types they also perform well in other situations, too
I propose that a remake be made of the best civilizations of each type such as: The best civilization of gunpowder, infantry, cavalry, archers, etc.
The bonus damage against ships is almost certainly a reference to the Sicilian Vespers where Italian mercenary crossbowmen were used by both sides in naval battles
Funnily enough, in Medieval II: Total War the ideal army comp to deal with those pesky Mongol horse archers is basically Pavise Crossbowmen (i.e. Genoese crossbowmen) with an anti-cav infantry meat shield in front.
Crossbows are not as good in med 2 as archers. Also the shield on their back does not work.
@@stefankatsarov5806Genoese crossbow in Medieval 2 is one of the most OP skirmish unit in the game. Crossbow pierce armor but archer don’t (until you reach very late archer unit)
I think giving the Elite Upgrade +1 Damage or +1 Range would really help to make Genoese Crossbowman more appealing in the late game
I think +1 attack would reduce the value of the Italian arbalester, but +1 range would be a very good change imo
Especially for such an expensive upgrade
I'd rather they just reduce the cost if anything
the balance between the two units is already more than fine, and I dont think Italians need any buff atm
I hope we get a video on the Condottiero after this and before the new Italian overview.
Already exist and its upgraded even today
This unit makes no sense. Visually one would expect them to be anti archer. With a very high peirce armor. But no it has no peirce armor at all. Especially if you played total war where they have a shield bonus making them take 70% less arrow damage. Seems like they should swap ratan archer with there stats
Or give them an anti-projectile temporary shield like the Shrivamsha riders… imagine the salt!
In Med 2 shields on the back dont work as far as i know. It only counts if its in your arm.
@@stefankatsarov5806 I was going off Warhammer stats since it's been a while since I've fired up med 2. Although it is one of my favs
Historically though, crossbows are effective against mounted knights.
Genoese crossbowmen (or rather, italian crossbowmen mercenaries) were, in real life, predominantly used on ships, as additional firepower. That's why in the game they are good against ships. It's the anti-cavalry bonus that should be weird from a historical interpretation of unit statistics perspective.
Maybe because they fought the golden horde and tatars in Crimea for a long Time ?
It is one of the few examples where you can see the new developers don't quite have the same interest in historicity informing their balance decisions. They increasingly rely on "gimmicks" to make civilizations stand apart and they don't show the same devotion to ensuring the gimmick really fits the civ rather than just giving them the numbers they want.
Here, the gimmick clearly is Cavalry beats archers in the basic rock-paper-scissors of the game, so let's have an anti-cavalry archer to upset that!
Realistically, Italians should have had a unique pikeman unit like the Incan one, because Italy was really famed for pioneering that, but since the Incans already had the gimmick of pikemen with extra melee range, they couldn't use that again.
Thus, we get a quirky anti-cavalry crossbowman rather than a devastating Italian pike line. Oh well. Game is still more fun than most!
Genoese crossbowmen were very much a thing, and were used in plenty of land battles, not just on ships....
The anti cavalry shtick is most probably taken from battles of Third Crusade, like Arsuf or Jaffa, where Genoese and Pisan crossbowmen were said to be successfully checking the assaults of Saladin's cavalry.
I think in this case, it actually was because ships and camels used to have the same armor class. They just never removed it (similar to other units) and frankly don't have a good reason to - Italians are a top tier naval civ, but Gen-bows having bonus damage against ships isn't quite enough to make them good against ships (just passable in some situations).
According to the wiki, the anti-cavalry bonus refers to the Pope's ban against the Crossbow (which I believe is also the justification for the Spanish missing the Xbow upgrade) - the ban came about because an untrained peasant with a Crossbow could kill a heavily armored (and trained) knight. Historically, archers were actually good against cavalry (horses are large and therefore easier to hit)
@@genericpersonx333 The italians were created during HD, tho... Idk how the dev team behind Definitive edition handles these kind of stuff, but this one is not on them. I think it's fine, gameplay-wise, we already had the cataphracts and huskarls which are the same kind of idea.
Impeccable pronunciation of "pavise", bravo
But he also said "Condotierri" :D 😆
Is that how some people pronounce it? I can't find anywhere online stating that as the proper pronunciation.
One advantage Genoese Crossbows would have in Imperial Age is that they don't really need their Elite upgrade, just imbed some of them into your Arbalesters for a ranged anti Cavalry role, dealing 9 Damage to Hussars and 7 Damage to Paladins while Arbalesters can only deal 4 Damage to Hussars and 3 Damage to Paladins.
8 damage vs paladins, not 7
Yea, you basically dont need it. Getting Hussar or any other upgrade is usually better
@@kpep588 Unless your enemy really, really likes making cavalry.
Hey guys! Spirit of the law here!
I imagine there was a game on a map that had a lot of shallow tiles where that anti-ship damage came in handy lol.
I feel like they could definitely do with more pierce armor. The pavise was basically meant to be a sort of portable cover for sieges and large battles.
Like AoE4 Arbalétrier which is an unique Crossbowman for French and Jeanne d'Arc?
One of my favourite unique units. People around 1000-1200 ELO tend to greatly underestimate their ability to mow down cavalry. I had good success with them on the ladder and in some tournaments. Once you get a mass for 30-40 Genoese Crossbow. Then back them up with some bombard cannons as anti siege and building, you drop down as many stables as you can afford and just spam hussar as meat shield and anti skirmisher/monk or for raiding to apply pressure while you push with bombards. For cavalry focused civs it's a nightmare they generally don't have an effective option. Problem is getting going, Italians don't have the most special of starts and are rather generic until mid castle age when you might pick up Pavise.
Make good use of their discounted techs to get to the next age to either get there faster or get there with extra resources to pick up useful techs (like Pavise) or immediately invest into units :) I play it the way you do and indeed Italians are VERY effective and underrated.
God they really not respecting the genoese crossbow on that elo, had a game in arena and they made bunch of paladin against me, needless to say they resigned when group of 30 something puny archers melt their expensive ultimate units 😂
I remember I was getting stomped by mangadai and desperately getting out the GCs in a last ditch attempt and it somehow completely flipped the game because oh how severely they underestimated them. They ended up DCing
These guys were always a top 10 favorite UU of mine. Always enjoy building a few of these whenever I play Italians.
And I can't wait for the Italians Overview video coming soon.
I was waiting for this moment for so long!
Would love to start seeing this for Age of Mythology...
Love your work as always
I feel safe to assume that next video is going to be Italians overview, but having an update on best foot archers, both Crossbow line and unique ones like Genoese crossbow, Plumed archer, Rattans etc.
Yay!!! Another unique unit deep dive!!
Fascinating that it flips around like that.
From a design viewpoint, I always like those cases that make players think and change how you can or want to use a unit, without it being a confusing mess of stat changes. And getting this result by just a +1 dmg / +2 bonus damage? Just beautiful.
I really wish the Genoese Crossbows' elite upgrade gave them +1 range to improve their versatility in the late game and help them be more on par with arbalesters, as well as helping to justify the elite upgrade's high cost. Maybe throw in +1 pierce armor with it, since it's always bothered me that Gen Xbows with Pavise still have the same pierce armor as Elite Longbows.
Alternatively, just reducing the elite upgrade's cost to be more in line with the actual benefits it provides would make it more appealing. I have a feeling the high cost is a holdover from back when the non-elite had a slower fire rate than the crossbow line, so the elite upgrade was actually a marked improvement, but the cost wasn't changed when the non-elite got buffed, so now it's just prohibitively expensive.
Brace your yourself guys, the Italians Overview is gonna be coming
Always love these in depth videos dissecting niche units!
I assume the gen x-bow has a bonus against ships cause italians were added before camel and ship armor classes were split, and they gave gen x-bow a bonus vs ships to preserve that legacy behavior when camel and ship armor classes were split.
- Many years ago, an overworked developer trying to meet a strict deadline: "Let's give the camels the ship class, to save a few hours of development time".
- All the years since then: "Let's spend many thousands hours of development time to preserve the legacy behavior".
I haven't played aoe in 20 years, yet I watch these videos
It is a testament to the quality of your videos Spirit, how i a person who havent touched AoE2 since The Conquerors still know a shiton about the game and its current state and a few hundred elephant facts. Well done mate
Th problem with the Genoese Crossbow is that they very rarely get to take a fight on their terms. shorter range and cavalry can run away. in practise, in they are massed from 1 or 2 castles the cavarly player can wait until they get to take a fight on their terms which will still be quite bad but once the numbers are reduced their they struggle to get up tot he 20-30 where they destroy cav instead of just trading well.
In the original versions of Aoe2, camels were classified as ships, so the tech heated shot worked vs them for bonus damage. I wonder if the genoese crossbow's bonus damage against ships is some kind of remainder of that problem.
I think a good combo would be Genoese Crossbowmen with regular bowmen, maybe even pikemen ontop of that. For slaying Calvary. I really like the Italian civ in this game, that and the Sforza campaign is really enjoyable.
Great job, Spirit. Awesome video as usual. My main take away is that I can throw more spearmen at these unique unit and hope for the best. Seems very counterintuitive even after your explanation.
Excellent vid as always! But u missed genitours
During the medieval/Renaissance wars between italian states, many italian war vessels had an extra crew of crossobowmen for naval combat. In fact, the training with crossbows was compulsory in many of the Italian states' militias.
Edit:typos and more accuracy
The anti cav superb qualities of the Genoese crossbows is on full display in the custom campaign 'The Republic of Genoa," especially the later missions where you're confronted by massed Frankish paladins.
Who wants to guess what the next video is gonna be (hint: impossible to guess, totally not a civ overview)
My takeaway from this video is that I never realised before how the Genoese Crossbowman really is (understandably) just the Crossbowman model with a pavise.
5:45 genovese crossbows were often used for naval warfare. The bonus is probably a nod to that.
I never knew they had an attack bonus against cavalry until a year or so ago. When I first played vs italians (against bots) I was playing cumans and spammed light cav and it worked pretty well. I assumed they were just weak to cavalry.
The bonus against ships makes sense : ships are the camels of the sea after all
I have a weird question : will an arrow that is missed out of inacuracy deal damages if it lands on an soldier ? (thining of large formations)
I feel like the Genoese crossbowman together with arbalesters in a mixed formation is what would work very well. The shorter range of the crossbowmen has them automatically go to the front and tank shots. I feel like an interesting change would be a buff to their HP with a nerf to their attack rate. This would support a 2 rank use of them together with regular italian arbalesters.
The effects of the -1 range are hard to quantify, but really needs to be considered when considering the viability of the Genoese Crossbow. One of it's effects is that Genbows are outranged by several of their counters. The video found that Genbows did better against skrims and mangonels, but with micro (something that is almost a given with mangonels), the gen bows will be hard-pressed to get any attacks off. So they might hold up better in these tests, but in my experience they do much worse.
Also, in late game, the slightly reduced gold cost does make up for the increased wood cost. People often trade 100 wood for
Have they fixed the desync issue with the game? Haven't been able to play in months now.
pretty sure the anti-ship damage was simply given to keep the old balance that existed when camels and ships used the same armour class.
Elite Genoese is usually a trap. For the cost of Imperial Age you can do so many other things to beef up your army. Add cavaliers, seige, or even just get a few more regular Gen bows.
The Genoes dowing bonus dmg vs ships is probably because they where used across all of Europe as archers on ships.
Also it is 100% intentional because in the original Sforza campaing in the mission whit the big enemy camp you are encoraged in the campaing tips to use them vs ships because they have a bonus.
It is very hilarious that the "camels are the ships of the desert" always leads to the weirdest stuff in AoE2 to this day.
lol that 3 ROF for non-elite Genoese Crossbow from very first version.... still remember them well....
Mixing Arbalesters with standard Genoese crossbowmen has been my usual go to, tends to get the best of both worlds since the elite upgrade isn't too too needed.
That being said, something that was touched on in castle age somewhat applies albeit inconsistently in imperial, being that the elite upgrade lets them (sometimes) survive an onager shot. Not Siege Onager though.
I've also seen that done with Armenians; going crossbow and mixing some Compies in suddenly makes them a lot harder to deal with if the opponent doesn't have good archer line themselves.
Now if only people would do the same with Briton Longbowmen instead of complaining and demanding Longbows be moved to the range as a crossbow replacement.
My favourite UU in the entire game! Italians are VERY underrated, including on pure landmaps like Arabia given the predominence of Cavalry civs (Franks, Berbers, Huns...). Can't wait for the Italians overview in a few days!
What do you think about a video of the overall best standalone unit? Something with the most advantages against the most units at the most value with the least weaknesses?
When I saw the unit I assumed it would have pierce resistance and would excel in ranged vs. ranged. Was not expecting anti-cav.
they have bonus against camels the ship of the land
It's just natural that they have bonus against the ship of the sea
Maybe it's just a reminder of the camle/ship armor class back then
For an Italian player, what is the best against cavalry: Genoese crossbow or Pikeman ?
Italian player here, I love the gen xbows hehe
Advantage for archers: can be massed in feudal age, don't need a castle, have more range are cheaper.
Advantage genoese: more tanky, more dmg in castle age and are a lot stronger against cav and ships.
Early castle, archers are superior sine you should already have a mass from feudal. You can't get a crossbow+bodkin powerspike if you first build a castle and then start massing.
Late Castle, genoese are mostly superior.
In Imp it really depends. Genoese are a lot better against cav, but against everything else you pay more for the same dps (or have less units meaning less dps). And in a mixed comp, the most important role for archers is pure dps. So the extra hp & defense for genoese is not that valuable. And the extra range for arbalests also adds a lot to their survivability and increases their performance in big battles a lot.
I'd argue the genuese elite upgrade is one of the worst elite upgrades in the game and the main reason they are rarely seen.
actually how does the non-elite version hold up in Imperial? if it still does fine vs cavalry, there could be an argument to go for Genoese in Castle, not to upgrade them in Imperial only using them as a cavalry counter while you transition into normal Arbalesters
I love this unit in TG, i feel like a small group obliterate the trade, not sure if the bonus works but i saw is pretty effective.
Hi, great video as always.
I still wonder about few specific matchups :
- Japanese Cavalry archer. Does the +2 attack that they have, have a significant impact?
- Eagle warrior. They are a soft / hard counter to archers in castle / imperial. Does the extra HP and attack in castle make the Genoese a viable solution against them ? Probably not in imp from what I can understand from the video
Eagles would still beat genoese, I believe. Add in the easier time massing a barracks unit vs a castle unit..plus the various bonus the meso civs get for them..Generally you would just want to be making hand cannons, or even champions which the Italians have fully upgraded.
@@mattwhite4302 as I said, question is more about castle age where all the options you provide are not available.
I would say that knights would do a better job, but I'm just curious to see the difference with xbows
@@Razius33Officiel The eagles would still do the job, if you mass them, which is entirely doable in Castle. I don't think the genoese would end up being a difference maker 9 times out of 10, even if on paper they might perform a little better.
My favorite unique unit in the game, love using them ❤
To be honest, matching the standard arbalester in most cases while vastly exceeding them in their weakest suite (cavalry) just makes them seem like a straight upgrade to arbs as a whole. A slightly worse performance against a trash unit is well worth the added firepower vs most of the strongest units in the game, imo. I guess one could put hand cannons and bombards behind them to manage infantry and siege - play off that lower range/higher durability.
Odd as it might sound, I'd like a comparison between Arbalesters and standard Genoese Crossbowmen. If you decide to stick with Arbs, is it still worth making a few standard Genoese if they come at you with camels/ elephants?
5:52 maybe its a lil nod to history since genoa was a maritime power like venice and theyr merncenary where probly used to fire from ship
I love playing team games with Italians! Even though the Genoese fall off a bit in comparison to other archer units after elite, Italians overall have an amazing late game, so I wouldn't want any changes.
Would like to see something about their editor-only counterparts. Heavy Crossbowmen and Heavy Pikeman.
Our boys Sforza, Malatesta and Piccinini certainly have nice combination without Halberdiers and Gambesons.
Fast-moving infantry against gunpowder units, the Condottiero and Genoese Crossbowmen as Elephant and Cavalry and Ship and Camel slayers ˇˇ (beware of Malian Farimba though)
How would they fare against Mayan Plume Archers? More costly, but significantly heavier, fast moving fellas.
Genoese Crossbows are very interesting unique units from the Italian Civ.
One type of unit I would like to see and I kind of build my own civ around is a cheap gunpowder unique unit like a arquebusier. That maybe also only takes up half a population space, is very cheap and has high attack but a very low fire rate and 0% accuracy with a wide firing arc. Maybe also with a unique projectile that is smaller than the normal bullets. That in large numbers they can do a devastating volley almost like a ranged version of a charge attack. Alone their low accuracy and fire rate makes their DPS rather modest but it's very heavily front loaded.
They shouldn't have any bonus damage but their high attack and massive volume of fire make them nevertheless effective against high armor units like paladins especially since the main damage limitation is accuracy and paladins have a slightly larger size. Of course the volley would be absolutely devastating against elephants, to the point that the arquebusier would be a hard counter to elephants even without bonus damage.
Can you do an AOE4 video on Ozutsu. There's very limited information on them
Bonus vs ships is prob a reference to the fact that they were often hired as ship security
I would have assumed these Crossbowmen carrying these large Pavise shields around to be much better vs other archers.
Feel like the unit doesn't represents itself well. Like give it more HP or an additional +1 piercing armor and lugging a shield make it a little slower as well
Looking at the upgrades, it looks like Genoese Crossbowmen are basically Arbalesters, but in Castle Age. So of course they're going to outperform un-upgraded Castle Age Crossbowmen.
How about genoese crossbowmen plus onagers, backed up later by a couple cannons. This units cover each other's weaknesses perfectly.
Genovese xbow on top of a decent farming eco for hussars is a really dangerous combination at low/mid levels.
Micro the hussars as a meat shield and siege / skirm sniper and let the xbow do their thing.
Leaves plenty of apm for decent eco management and castle building behind.
Odd to not include Hand Cannoneer in Imp comparisons considering the italian bonus there.
a mix of Genoese Crossbow and Arbalesters (30 and 30) are unbeatable
Teutonic Knight overview soon?
Genoese crossbowmen can be pretty oppressive against specific civs that mostly focus on melee units and/or cavalry archers, because all three of infantry, cavalry and CA generally do rather poorly against the genoese. This is especially painful for civs that lack important range upgrades like bracer or even thumbring.
*hears "camels and ships" and immediately get war flashbacks*
**Heated shot whistling overhead.**
My guess is the bonus against ship is just a carry over from the past when camel still categorised as ship
The matchup against elephant is also brutal
I found Italians are a really fun civ to play. Shame you don't see them more often.
Make genoese xbowmen in black forest tg with bombard canons it's usually easy roll to victory. Also quite nice unit to do cd push with. Extra hp helps with expected mangonel counter. Enemy pocket can't help against you with knights. If you connect strategy with your pocket coming with knights it's actually very tricky to counter with general units.
Asking again! Analysis on winning water in Nomad!
Oh nooo the secret to my victories revealed 😢
wheres the intro song?
15th time of asking Spirit of the Law to review Romae ad Bellum civilizations like he did with Romans. Thank you for another interesting video and keep up the awesome work. :D
Genoese Crossbows vs ArbalestER bugs me to no end 😂😂 Either saying Genoese Crossbowman or Arbalest would be fine since its the same naming style for both. The game just uses -man and -er for everything, but when talking about the units its often without the suffix
I love this unit, but it rarely comes handy, especially since I play mostly 2v2s.
Armenian bowmans are pretty much an upgrade.
I think the +1 vs mangos and more hp is overshadowed by the fact you have less range so youre much more likely to eat a mango shot to begin with.
Elite Genoese crossbowmen need a buff. The elite upgrade is so expensive for the meagre increase in stats.
Nice.
Seems like a good unit for holding walled chokepoints.
Italian overview next 😘
one of the strongest units of the game imho. Very hard to counter and can bring down entire civilizations (es. Persians, Franks)
The 200% win rate naval civ overview incoming!