The Incompetence Of The Fire Nation⎮An Avatar: The Last Airbender Discussion
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- Опубліковано 14 вер 2022
- So recently, i've been thinking a lot about the Fire Nation and their actions whilst Aang was an ice cube during the hundred year war.... and i'm baffled. What were they doing for all that time? How are they so inefficient? How could they get so little done? I explore this idea today. Enjoy!
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They knew that the avatar was alive because fire sages could tell that the avatar was still alive because they were some way connected to the avatar.
was that an episode? the One where he needs to speak to the last one before him right?
@@kharijordan6426 book 1 episode 3 southern air temple
Damn it I was just about to type that
Stop filling in the shows misdirections with your head cannon
@@dontquestionmysanity5402 name checks out.
For the part about not colonizing the Air Temples: From what I've heard, the Fire Nation didn't have airships back then, and a theory I saw stated that Firebenders only got up to those places because Sozin's Comet allowed them to rocket boost up to them through firebending.
What about the dragons?
@@revolvingworld2676 Weren't they also trying to exterminate dragons, too?
@@generaltechnomage306 That too, but they had some left to also lead this operation before wiping them off completely. Kind of like people still has cows before having beef steaks.
Another reason they didn't colonize the air temples may have been due to their limited capabilities. Nothing has the ability to do everything at once, and it's clear they dedicated their efforts to instead colonizing the northwest Earth Kingdom, which would've been more financially sound investments than any colony in the difficult to traverse, agriculturally poor, air temples.
They didn’t have air ships till the mechanist invented them.
You could argue that Sozin deliberately left the air temple islands untouched hoping to draw in any remaining air nomads looking for other survivors
To be fair there was nothing there to concur. Unlike the Earth Kingdom and the Water Tribe the Air Nomads weren't a big resourceful nation
I'd have to agree on both points, and it seems they had other priorities, such as colonizing more productive, high potential lands that existed in the Earth Kingdom at the time, and they went to effort to take, as seen in their initial conquests of the northwestern Earth Kingdom.
That or a water or earthbender avatar showing up there to learn airbending secrets.
I'm assuming Zhao was only able to invade the Northern Tribe by sheer numbers alone. No one but him (and Zapp Brannigan) is stupid enough to send wave after wave of men to invade. A lot of them likely died off-screen.
I can think of two more real life examples for this tactic, one from history and one from current events, both from the same place.
@@justinianflavius9571 is it Russia?
that and the fact that the fire nation likely industrialized under ozai so before ozais reign they did not have the capabilities to take on the water tribe. oh and killing the water spirit certainly helped his invasion efforts.
Are you forgotting that Zhao actually had the knowledge to utterly rend waterbender powerless,
He had a massive ace in his sleeve, it's wasn't a mindless invasion.
His invasion was closed to be a complete succes if not for Iroh's intervention.
For you see Kif, if we use enough of our fire, we can boil all their water to evaporation: Check Mate!
It is likely the Fire Sages were able to detect that the Avatar was not reborn (hence why Katara says in the ep 1 intro that some believed the cycle was broken).
It makes sense that the Fire Nation would likely not waste military power on small islands. To control the Earth Kingdom overall, Sozin strategically conquered the city of Yu Dao (the oldest Fire Nation colony) due to the abundance of metal ore and citizens with skill in metallurgy. This is how they were able to significantly expand their fleet.
Following this, Sozin/Azulon targeted the commercial centers of the Earth Kingdom, including key port cities such as Taku (seen in The Blue Spirit) and Bin-Er (another one of these trading cities mentioned in The Dawn of Yangchen).
From there, with a significant colonial Earth Kingdom presence now established over the course of Azulon’s long reign, alongside a number of raids on the Southern Water Tribe which would have taken up military resources, the First Siege of Ba Sing Se under Iroh commences and fails. This is what catalyzes the ascent of Ozai who heavily industrialized and invested in the Drill. To conquer Ba Sing Se is both a strategic annexation and a symbolic assault on the pride of the Earth Kingdom.
Attacking from all sides does not necessarily target the most important locations that would serve to cripple the kingdom
1. Invading the Air Temples was not an easy feat. Assuming the Firebenders of the past were more powerful than the Firebenders of the present (due to irrational hotheads like Zhao) and they fire propelled themselves to the Temples, it wasn't worth it to return. That's why they set up traps for Airbenders to fall for outside of the temples. I assume the Temples were just too difficult to reach for them to properly take over.
Honestly, I think a big reason why a lot of important things happened during the last year of the 100 year war was because the entire fire nation basically had an "Oh Sh't" moment when the avatar was suddenly and unpredictably a thing again, meaning they kicked everything into high gear to get rid of the Avatar, as they were literally the fire nation's biggest problem in the last 100 years.
Another notable thing is that a lot of the attacks during the last year were likely difficult wins for the fire nation, requiring a massive numbers/technology advantage in most scenarios, with Ba Sing Se and the Northern Water Tribe being basically impossible to attack under any normal circumstances. Omashu was likely captured because the fire nation knew Ang was going to need an earth teacher, so Bumi needed to be out of the picture. Previously because everything ran on earthbending, Omashu was likely going to be a useless city to capture under normal circumstances.
The only reason the north almost lost was duo to zhao finding the scroll in the library of wan shi tong, and he only found it a few years before the attack. Why didnt he attack sooner? Zhao being zhao probably wanted to lead the attack himself to get credit, so he had to wait until he got promoted to admiral (which happened mid season 1)
Yeah, I think Zhao himself admitted to Iroh that without his secret knowledge an attack on the north would not be possible
If what you say is true that he wanted to wait until he was promoted, what gets me is why he didn't go to the fireloard or whoever was in charge of the position or area he was and ask if he could be promoted not long after he found out what he did.
@@morganrussman finding a library doesnt earn u a promotion. also it is very likely that he kept his discovery a secret cuz if he went "fire lord i found a way to beat the water tribes" ozai would be like "oh really? well let me just YOINK that real quick. whats that? a promotion? for what? that is my plan. now get out of my sight"
@@JoyDaBeast I meant what I said in context to Zhao simply going to ozai and asking for the promotion. I didn't necessarily mean that Zhao had to mention about the library.
@@morganrussman I can't imagine you could just go to the firelord and ask for a promotion without anything to offer. You probably wouldn't survive asking that question. Assuming you even got to talk to the firelord in the first place, which surely wasn't easy as well
The Fire Nation is likely based on Imperial Japan (after the Meiji Restoration) and Imperial Britain.
So it doesn't surprise me that they didn’t take advantage of the actual benefits of the Air Nomad’s temples.
Ala how the British Empire used colonies prime for making for more food for colony and kingdom, but decided to use them to cultivate cash crops like sugar, spices, and--most importantly to the average Englishman--TEA.
So it doesn't surprise me at all that the Fire Nation would have this kind of lapse in judgment.
Chinese UA-camr Xiran Jay Zhao has a video series talking about Asian sources of inspiration in Avatar. She specifically talks about Chinese inspiration, because that's the culture that she knows the most about, but she does say that all of the nations have a huge amount of inspiration from a wide variety of Asian cultures. You can't say that the Fire Nation is just Japan, or that the Earth Kingdom is just China, or that the Air Nomads are Tibetan monks, or that the Water Tribe is the Inuit.
@@level20art50 that's why I say "likely". Though I only say that Meiji era Japan is the most likely one because of how quickly the Fire Nation modernized with its industrial revolution.
There's a couple videos done by Overly Sarcastic Productions and Hello Future Me that say exactly this.
I think the Fire Nation didn't make any lapse in judgement in the matter, and instead was very intelligent in planning their war effort. The benefits of the Air Nomad temples were probably miniscule compared to the resource-rich lands we know of in the northwestern earth kingdom, which is where the Fire Nation invaded first. It's clear that they were thinking in the long term, and sought to ensure their victory by outcompeting every other nation in the war, directing their capacity towards setting up very prosperous colonies in the high potential lands of the earth kingdom, whilst Ba Sing Se and the northern water tribe could only fortify and properly hold their capitals. This may have been the main reason why the Fire Nation didn't immediately attack the north or Ba Sing Se, as it's clear there was opportunity for both, but both would've likely been very risky compared to this strategy of outcompeting them.
@@KaijuganI've seen other people point out that it's more of s hybrid culture between China and south east Asia. The only real things the fire nation has in common with japan is being a militairistic nation of volcanic islands that had an Asian world at it's mercy. If aanything, it's kyoshi island that's the equivalent of Japan
@@Thegravedigger0 Topknots and a particularly all consuming devotion to a lord or superior to maintain "honor" to avoid punishment or death (self inflicted or otherwise) are also connections to Japan. Particularly in terms of Samurai history.
They thought the avatar was alive because his living being is literal magic they can detect. Even if they couldn’t detect it isn’t it weird that not a single AirBender tried to bend multiple elements to either save their people or themselves?
Not to mention correct me if I'm wrong but part of the reason they started capturing all the southern watertribes benders was "just to be safe"
I do have to wonder about what kind of man power the Fire Nation was dealing with. Looking at the map they have a lot less territory and likely a lot less people then the Earth Kingdom. Plus they seemed to of lost a number of soldiers fighting the Air Nomads despite the power up.
I do wonder when they started attacking the Southern Water Tribe and how powerful they were back then. It seems reducing the South to it's state at the start of the series seems like a reason thing. We don't know how long it took to wear them down to that point, or how much resources.
The Earth Kingdom would be harder to take over. While it might not be as densely populated it is quite large and occupying would be expensive. At a certain point they would have to wait for their population to increase and train more soldiers. Although you do have a point about not taking the islands.
I Would turn Island in to air bases
With a large nearby populations
@@johay899 With what aircraft? The Fire Nation didn't develop flight technology until the final year of the war.
Sozin's comet must have played a big role
@@joshsolomon4825 I figure as much, but after 100 years the Earth Kingdom would have time to recover.
The way I see it is that the airbenders were literally a bending nation, benders, one and all due to their spirituality and the fact that a non bender wouldn’t do very well in their mountainous homes. And they all practiced their bending, and due to a possible hunter gatherer type society, flying around harvesting vast quantities of food from the land, they probably had a lot of time to improve their bending. It seems like all the corpses we see at Aang’s temple are fire nation soldiers, not to mention Gyatzo surrounded by them, so it seems like airbenders fighting against people who fight with what is essentially bursts of angry air, are kinda overpowered, only being beaten due to the comet’s powerup
The issue with sacking the north just like they did with the south was that the Northern Water Tribe was much more centralized and much better organized, making such raids extremely costly. Yes, they did almost fall following Zhao's attack, but the effort put into building that fleet was extraordinary and made possible by Zhao's ambition.
On top of this he did temporarily kill the moon spirit which if not revrsed by Yue, ocean spirit or not would have rendered water benders non benders permanently. How far the ocean spirit would go to torture the Fire Nation but it is possible the spirit alone with the Avatar would have simple put an end to the fire nations existence with a holy fury of attacks until they ceased to exist.
Didn't Iroh say to Zhao that attacking the north is suicidle because of their power boost from the moon and Zhao admitted as much, but told Iroh he knew a secret, that would change that?
@@Luwi1996 yes
If I'm not mistaken, the fire nation didn't have airships until after that one episode where they were defeated at that air temple. The airships were invented by Sokka. There was even dialogue at the end of the episode about it.
They had dragons that they killed of wich was a noter dumb ass desidion
Exactly
Real reason :War is expensive
Both this video and the last one had me thinking that you forgot that the Fire Nation didn’t have war balloon technology until very recently. They couldn’t have used them to make Air temples more accessible.
The Guru went to the Eastern Air temple and Zuko and Iroh went to the Western Air Temple without any war balloons so it is possible to get there.
@@luisvelez1952 possible? Yes, but it is just to much trouble for getting in and out of the temples for it to actualy be worty of colonizing
The invention and mass production of war balloons was Sokka’s fault. Lol. If not for him, those things may not have existed.
@@guitarbass22sokka has carried the fire nation a lot more than he has carried anyone else
@@guitarbass22also the inventor is like 50 years old and his son is like 20 so he could have not worked with the fire nation for more than 20 years and he invented the tanks
The amount of resources it would take inhabit those island which are nearly impossible to get to. The ability to reach those temples only occurred because of the enhancement of the firebending due to Sozin's Comet. The technology to easily reach the temples was not available until during the time of the series.
The Air Nomads did not have to import food because they were hardly at those temples hence the term NOMAD!! IT was mountainous and very harsh.
And we know they used to get offerings from the other nations. Thy begged for food like Tibetan monks
Something happened in the reign of Azulon. Likely, the earth kingdom managed to make a massive push-back against the fire nation somehow, likely with help from his incompetence and failure at the firdt siege of the north. This pushback was perhaps even stated by Bumi. Furthermore, an unfortunate volcanic eruption may have crippled the fire nation for some time after a Pompeii esque disaster.
9:39 Wait? Who came up with the Airship slice again?
Anyway, I think you're making the assumption that an enemy is just going to stand idly by as they get conquered. It's clear that the war has had many phases, Iroh almost conquered Ba Sing Se but retreated, and you can sort of deduce that it's one of several assaults on the city that have failed.
The City of Kharkov which has been in the news recently traded hands like 4 times in WWII so how much back and forth hasn't there been during the 100 year war? And priorities, no country, no matter how autocratic is a monolith, competing interests, struggles of resources, etc, The Fire Nation, which is paralleled in real life by Japan had an Army and a Navy that were practically enemies because of these reasons.
The fire nation's biggest missed opportunity was not domesticating air bison. Bison diminish all the threats of an earth bender yeeting your rhinos into space and now you can fly to the water tribes instead of sending a navy boat... to the water people... and you're fire.
"What were the other Firelords even doing"
Yes Azulon, what were you actually doing? *literally, no other Firelords to lead this war*
My comment that I made about Azulón is a long one (and I probably misspelled his name 😅), but it boils down to this: it’s more than likely that he was alive and in the Fire Nation Army during Sozin’s first offensive against the Air Nomads/rest of the world, and he’d had extensive talks and plans with his father about the strategies that he should follow with this war. Based on the little background we got from flashbacks between Sozin and Roku, I can see what Azulón was doing: fast tracking production and innovation and technology and so much more, probably on the advice of his father, knowing that he’d see the end of the War come when it was the right time (only being cut short because he was poisoned by his daughter in law, but we all know that story). Iroh was probably privy to this plan, too, but then you had impatient, headstrong Ozai, who jumped the gun when he saw his chance after Iroh’s son died at the Siege of Ba Sing Se. He made it so Iroh couldn’t be the new Fire Lord, killed his father, banished his wife, and took control of the Fire Nation all to wrap up this war that his family had been a part of for over 100 years.
@@guitarbass22 Azulon doesn't have an accent. Only that, otherwise it's all good. Azulon was also born very late.
@@kubat4925 Autocorrect. Didn’t even notice until after the fact. Lol.
Well, Sozin genocided the air nomads and seized the Earth Kingdom's western provinces.
And Azulon did practically everything to take the Fire Nation from just being the homeland and the westernmost provinces to what it was at the beginning of the show.
You have to keep in mind that because the Fire Nation controlled not just the homeland but also most of the resource-rich parts of the Earth Kingdom, along with several strategic outposts in former Air Nomad territory (like Whaletail Island, the Southern Raiders' base) by the time Ozai came to power, the Fire Nation had a lot more resources than it did under Azulon or especially under Sozin, and the Fire Nation's enemies would have had more resources earlier in the war due to them controlling more territory. So earlier in the war, the Fire Nation would have been fighting a stronger Earth Kingdom while having fewer resources at their disposal, and just couldn't do stuff like meaningfully threaten the Northern Water Tribe. So they made the best of what they had. For instance, the Battle of Han Tui, which helped give the Fire Nation control of the western provinces, was won by Sozin through sheer cleverness. His army was outnumbered, but he took advantage of the fact that the enemy was downwind of him and that there was a drought to start a massive wildfire that burned the enemy's defenses to a crisp.
They were probably waiting to fully mobilize until sozin's comet was getting closer to being an option. Iroh invaded ba sing sei probably around 10 years before the series began, so we can assume that they were winning the war at that point. They're foothold in the massive earth kingdom is inconsistent; some areas are conquered, especially near the cost closer to the fire nation, while much of the earth kingdom was practically autonomous. You have to keep in mind that the firenation is pretty small and is likely spread fairly thin.
The earthkingdom is vast in comparison and the water tribes are irrelevant to trade, so it's unlikely their naval dominance was that significant. The industrialization of the fire nation also probably didn't happen all at once, so it could be that the technological advantage just happened to take a good chunk of that 100 year time gap to build up; though monk gyatso was still alive when they invaded, so they clearly had some capability to attack the air nomads early on.
All in all the slow efficacy of the fire nation probably has to do with resources, logistics of incorporating mostly independent earthkingdom settlements with vast distance between them and lack of soldiers to carry out land based operations on a large scale. Attacking the Earthkingdom from all sides probably wasn't an option
It is easy to see why there were limits to what the Fire Nation was able to do despite it's technological advantage during the war. First of all I have read plenty of Avatar wiki and watched all episodes of the show and watched each episode multiple times and consider it too be my favorite animated show of all time along with Young Justice. The Fire Nation military during the time of Sozin's reign had gone through a number of changes. Those massive coal powered monster ships we see the Fire Nation use during Avatar the Last Air Bender did not always exist for starters. In the earliest stages of Sozin's reign the Fire Nation had no coal powered warships Sozin had to order the construction of them and they were much smaller in size than they would become in later decades. It is stated repeatedly in different parts of Avatar wiki that in order to prepare for war with the other nations Sozin had to vastly increase the strength of the Fire Nation military and had to spend many years increasing the strength of his forces so that he could invade the other nations. Now you asked how they could get so little done? Well first of all the Fire nation exterminated all the air nomads except Aang, invaded and conquered vast sections of the Earth Kingdom, devastated the Southern Water Tribe through raids and defeated the navy of the Northern Water Tribe in a series of massive naval battles so the Fire Nation accomplished a lot while Aang was frozen. Now why did it take nearly 100 years for the Fire Nation to accomplish all this? Simple they were literally waging war against the rest of the world. The other nations although not as technologically advanced as the Fire Nation still had very powerful armed forces, extreme will to fight for their homelands and the home field advantage. The Fire Nation lost many ships while raiding the Northern and Southern Water tribes not just because of the fierce resistance that its watebenders and warriors put up but also due to the treacherous landscape itself. It has been confirmed that many Fire Nation ships became trapped and shipwrecked due to the icy conditions. The Northern Water Tribe was unified, was surrounded by a deadly icy landscape, had powerful waterbenders, warriors and they had an extremely strong will to fight. The Earth Kingdom is the largest continent in the Avatar world, has the largest land armies on Earth in terms of numbers, has extremely powerful Earthbenders and warriors, the people there have nearly unconquerable will and like Zuko said can endure anything as long as they have hope. The air nomads despite having no armies still had extremely powerful airbending masters like Gyatso and when the Fire Nation invaded the temples the Fire nation suffered heavy losses as you can see nearby monk Gyatso's skeleton and around the Southern Air Temple there were many Fire Nation remains. Even after the air nomads were defeated some did escape and proved so hard to track down that Sozin had to lure them out of hiding I am sure that took time. So there the Fire Nation did not accomplish as much as you wanted them too because they were literally fighting the rest of the world's peoples who had a clear numerical advantage, environmental advantages and the extreme will to fight back and resist. Also even while Aang was frozen the Fire Nation suffered defeats at the hands of the other nations. While the Fire navy inflicted massive naval defeats on the Northern Water Tribe navy all the Fire Nation's attempts to conquer or destroy the Northern Water Tribe itself ended in failure. The same thing goes with Ba Singe Se until Azula began the coup of Ba Singe Se which finally brought down the capital of the Earth Kingdom all the Fire Nation's previous attempts to conquer Ba Singe Se were failures. Iroh's 600 day siege did not only end in failure due to his son dying but also because Iroh's armies themselves suffered very heavy losses during their battles with the forces of Ba Singe Se and Iroh himself saw no end in sight to the siege and the moral of his men was plummeting. The armies of Ba Singe Se were the strongest Earth bender armies in the Earth Kingdom and some of the largest and deadliest armies on Earth. The Fire Nation was not going to spend time worrying about what to do with the land that the air nomads lived on because they had to focus on conquering the rest of the world. If the Fire nation devoted too much time to make use of the air temples and the land they were on then the other nations would try and use that as an opportunity to launch counter attacks against the Fire Nation.
Honestly, the British did it better.
before watching the vid: Inefficient? THey literally had the world on it's knees before Aang became defrosted, what the heck are you talking about?
2:24 ok, yes, maybe if he executed souzin (and tainted the iamge of the avatar. Remember avatar day?), that would have stopped the hundred year war, but without an heir that would have left the fire nation in chaos and hundreds of innocent people might've died.
7:24 ok, as seen from the season 1 finale the northern water tribe was impossible to be conquered by the fire nation 1, due to the numerous fortifications they had, and 2, by the time they got through the fortificaitons it was already night time with the moon out where water tribe overpower firebenders. The only reason they got as far as they did was because Zhao learnt of the water tribe weakness.
9:02 I could be wrong here, but I gained the impression that the earth kingdom used to be far more united before the hundred year war, and even after that we saw they still had a united army.
9:25 no main character was responsible for the fall of omashu. It just showed the ongoing succesful onslaught of the fire nation against the earth kingdom.
And maybe I'm using an incorrect historical parallel here, but think of Japan during ww2, how despite overpowering the chinese, it still only controlled a fraction of the country even at the height of it's power.
But aside from all that you do bring up good points.
I personally don't thing executing Sozin would have led to the full stop of the colonization process, I think someone else would have taken the reign and kept going.
See, the way I interpreted this, at least upon reflection and learning about real world fascists and fascist ideology, the thing is: fascism makes people incompetent. It's part of their ideological commitments that they overlook logical operations.
also based on japan a country that at multiple points in history were way to prideful for there own good
That's a ridiculous claim. PEOPLE are often incompetent, regardless of their ideology. If you think "fascists" are incompetent, is that to mean that if a genocidal regime IS competent... they're not fascist?
@@lauraw2526 it's a generalization. But a salient one nonetheless; fascists aren't *necessarily* incompetent. They're just more likely to be so, because they are so ideologically motivated by fear and superstition, that they often become illogical actors.
@@blazerboy233 That can be true of anyone though. Fear and superstition are common to all people, across all ideologies and cultures. In the end, it doesn’t matter about someone’s mental state: what actions are they taking? Are they good or bad? If they’re bad, then stop them, don’t assume incompetence.
@@lauraw2526 you're assuming way too much here. Take a step back. I just said "fascists tend to be incompetent" - I don't think I ever implied that that makes them less dangerous, cruel, or any less deserving of antifascist action.
It's just an observation of a correlation of ideological tendencies.
Oh, also I really don't think you can say that most people are motivated so ideologically by the fear, disgust, and submissive emotional responses as fascists. This isn't just any fear, this is a specific trait if fascism.
The only way to get to the temples is with a sky bison so it wouldnt be very good real estate. The fire nation got there with the power of the comet (that's why there are only finebender helmets on aangs temple when he visits it, only firebenders with comet power were able to get there) and the fire nation didnt have any air power until they invented hot air balloons (which happened during the show runtime)
If I recall correctly, one they Fire Nation was done with the Air Nomads their focus was put on the north western earth kingdom because that's where they got most of their iron, iron needed for the ships to invade the Fire nation.
The reason I think they didn't conquer the outlying islands of the Earth Kingdom is because they didn't see them as a threat. The islands were aware of this as well, and kept a low profile because they knew any sign could lead them into the eyesight of the fire nation. Instead, the fire nation focused on attacking the northwest Earth kingdom, which would've likely been and were confirmed by the comics to be resource rich, and most probably a major source of the Earth Kingdom's economy outside of Ba Sing Se. It's the reason they didn't try to engage Ba Sing Se immediately in a siege by the east coast, attacking via the river we know flows through the Ba Sing Se and to lake Laogai, as this would've been a very risky operation whilst their technology was far less advanced at the time. Taking the resources of the northwest and using it to spearhead their own progress would ensure their victory with time, able to outcompete the limited extent of Ba Sing Se with superior manpower, technology, and industrial capacity.
Technology may have also been the reason for them not attacking the Northern Water Tribe, as their domain was highly protected, described as an icy fortress in the show. Their water benders seem to have been significantly more numerous, the size of their capital in the show greatly eclipsing even at the height of the southern water tribe before the raids. They porcupine-d themselves, and it's clear why the fire nation might've wanted to maintain some form of neutrality with the northern water tribe, so as to keep away a formidable enemy that was close to their new colonies in the northwest. They likely blockaded the northern water tribe, and this may have been another reason for prioritizing the northwest. Any avatar that was born in the northern tribe would be unable to master any of the other elements, and would not be difficult to kill should the Fire nation have by then eclipsed the north's naval capacity, and been able to siege the northern capital with better technology, which we see happen in the show. The reason they waited so long might've been due to the self-imposed or possibly forced isolation of the north, which would impede information travel and leave the fire nation blind as to how exactly strong the north was, thus attacking at any point would have been very risky, and it would be the same situation of simply outpacing them as they conquered the Earth Kingdom and they were content to hide in the poles. Should the north have attempted to attack the fire nation, that would've merited a full invasion and such a costly offensive, with the knowledge that it couldn't have been prevented.
It is worth noting that the Earth kingdom would've still been a relatively formidable force in defending their homeland, and thus the redirection of so much resources when both financially and technology they were worse than in their peak in the show would have been seen as so incredibly costly, should it have failed the war might have been brought to a stalemate, and the Earth Kingdom possibly able to industrialize if they ever reclaimed fire nation technology left behind in their new colonies that would fall without army or navy from the homeland. It's why they prioritized seizing the resource-laden northwest so as to grow more powerful and handle a war with an increasing number of fronts whilst starving out the greatest threat, the lumbering giant it was. We can see this in the 40 year delay when they attacked the air nomads and the earth kingdom to when they attacked the southern water tribe. It also stands to reason why they didn't immediately believe that the avatar was reincarnated and that they should prioritize attacking the poles, as there was good reason that they'd believe the avatar survived the attacks. it's established from the avatar comics that a good number of air nomads escaped the genocide, and it seems obvious looking at it due to the very migratory nature of the Aid nomads, most of their populations likely roamed across the world whilst the next generation were raised at the air temples. The air temples themselves would likely have not been good places for colonies due to their mountainous nature, it would lead to the same situation as the mainland fire nation's outlying islands, settlements that would need to be dependent on trade and food imports, as opposed to a better application of resources by directing their limited funds at the founding of vastly more prosperous colonies in the earth kingdom such as Yu Dao which were not only generally self sufficient but able to export a large variety of resources, this detail confirmed in the comics as well as we see how the northwestern colonies thrived and became some of the most valuable territories of the fire nation, and it nearly led to a second war over the harmony restoration movement, and in the end laid the foundation for Republic City.
This was a bit long, but hopefully this helps in providing insight into some of the complexities in Avatar that are hidden in context clues, which as an avid fan of the series, is the main reasons I love the show :)
You really spent an hour on this didn’t you? Lol
To be fair. They probably didn’t want to deal with the unagi and that’s why they left kyoshi island out of it. Also it’s relatively separated from the rest of the earth kingdom. More so than other parts, and it has a massive warrior culture. It might have been a “we have to much on our plate” decision
No benders so it would had been a embarrassing defeat or a useless win
@@styrishfernando1849 the kyoshi warriors could hold their own against firebenders. And again, getting to the island would be difficult with the unagi, and then dealing with the kyoshi warriors. All for a small island
theres really no reason to fight them. Just move around them.
Hey three things! Well you are mostly right about everything in this video, I don’t think that the conquering or near conquering of the north pole, Komatsu, and bossing say could have reasonably been done before the events of the show. The near conquering of the northern water tribe only happened because admiral Zhao happen to find the information about how to kill the moon spirit. Someone had to find that information before they could conquer the northern water tribe. Oh my shoe was only captured because king Bhoomi surrendered. King Bhoomi surrendered because he wanted to wait until the right moment to strike when he could be sure of victory and the fewest casualties. he did not want to risk his people. Finally, bossing say. Bossing say was only taken down because of Azula and criminal mastermind sociopaths like her only come around every hundred years or so.
But you are so right about everything else🙃
#ILoveAvatarTheLastAirbender!
I apologize for all the misspellings.
Bumi* Ba seng sei* Omashu
Your shoe was captured? Did you get it back?
Why didn't they kill Bumi? So stupid.
i think the earth kingdom was the one who didn't even try, they just left all their villages to die, also they could have made much much more walls.
As far as Fire Nation stupidity goes:
- had an era where they systemically hunted down their own animal familiars (the dragons) instead of systematically wearing away at the poles
- NWT’s near loss at the end of season 1 is entirely due to Zhao being a crazy man who tries to kill the moon
- however. If the NWT waterbenders had been systemically hunted and killed the way their southern brethren were, that would’ve handed the Fire Nation the storywide win, since Aang wouldn’t have known waterbending + the Siege of the North, which netted Aang the spirit water (and therefore, second chance at life), would have never happened. Then Aang dies at Ba Sing Se
- yea in short the Fire Nation has no tactics or strategy. If they did they wouldn’t have needed Sozin’s Comet to finish the war
I'm not so sure about that. Prior to the lunar eclipse, the Northern Water Tribe was handling themselves pretty well. Yeah, Fire Nation troops had breached the city, but the fight was far from over. If anything, I feel like Aang taking himself out of the battle to talk to the spirits was a misplay by the heroes. Yes, Aang had been overwhelmed by the Fire Nation fleet when he tried to solo them out in the open water, but had he joined the Water Tribe forces in attacking the Fire Nation troops in chokeholds and other strategic locations, the battle may have gone differently. Even without the Avatar State, Aang has a lot of raw power.
@@Nemo12417 I mean, it wasn’t a mistake to send Aang to defend the moon spirit. They needed to recover the literal moon (since as I said, Zhao was a crazy man who successfully managed to get all the way to the spirit oasis.)
Would Zhao have gotten that far if Aang were farther out? No. But it was currently in the firebenders’ favour, with sunup, and there were so many of them (and Agna Qel’a really only had the one huge ice wall defending it in terms of geography) that there are no strategic choke points the NWT could use to hold every single last man off from getting lost in the chaos within the city walls - to then attack the moon spirit. It was a correct defensive move to protect their ability to defend themselves - you cannot simply leave a weakness like that unguarded. Zhao directly attacked the source of the NWT’s bending, which as we could see easily turned the favour of battle to the Fire Nation’s side.
Aang is strong, but he is only one person. On the day of Black Sun, he invaded the Caldera with a team - an army, and a more elite smaller group. On the day of Sozin’s Comet, Aang faced Ozai alone, but Zuko and Katara had to handle Azula to prevent her from ascending to the Phoenix Throne, and Sokka, Suki, and Toph were needed to prevent the razing of the Earth Kingdom. Even in this sense, they got ahead of the tide and were lucky to take down all the airships in one go. Similarly, there is the moon spirit for the NWT + Aang to defend, but there is also the tribe itself (since if it’s people died en masse it would be reduced near to the state of the SWT) and Aang as the Avatar and the world’s hope.
Sorry, I should have clarified. The reason Aang communing with the spirits strikes me as a misplay is because none of the team even knew the spirits were in danger (or, for that matter, that they could be in danger) until Koh told Aang that. And by the time they return to the spirit oasis, Zhao had already captured it.
@@Nemo12417 thanks for the clarification! Yeah, actually that makes sense. They were being a little desperate, going for the spirits’ help when they were at a pretty clean stalemate. And as far as I remember, Zhao wouldn’t have found the oasis if Aang hadn’t gone to find it.
@@Nemo12417 it's not a missplay as much as it is a misunderstanding. If Yue and her people where more spiritually in tuned they would have known twi and la (might have spelled that wrong) were the two fish and therefore spirits he wouldnt have needed to go into the spirit world at all. With this lack of information he had to go search for it. If known they could have set up a last line of defense there. As far as they know Zuko isn't coming and no one is supposed to be able to get back there like Zuko did in the first place essentially allowing them to fight from a corner/pillbox. They have the high ground and Aang wouldnt be out of position if not for Zuko. If Zhou actually got Zuko killed he doesnt bag the moon spirit.
The fire nation didn't actually know that the avatar survived. The whole point of Zuko's task to find the avatar was that it was meant to be impossible.
1, the fire nation didn't have flying technology until after aang woke up and Soka inspired the mechanist.
2, I don't think there was much reason to try and conquer Kyoshi Island, since it was neutral or at the very least didn't pose a threat.
3, I think you're under estimating both the strength of the Northern Water tribe and the Earth Kingdom. The fire nation technology after 100 years of development was only just recently able to pose significant difficulties for the earth benders/water benders, and even still they were struggling. The Earth kingdom specifically was shown to be a major problem for the Fire Nation even up to the days of Iroh leading the military (which as a reminder was like, 5 to 10 years before the start of the show) since while he did make it to Ba Sing Se, the army was repelled and his kid was killed. Also, the attack of the Northern water tribe was only successful since Zhao killed the moon spirit. Before he did so, it was a bit of a back and forth thing (like the tides) where the fire nation was doing better in the day and the water tribe was doing better at night. This stalemate was even with the enormous number of fire nation ships they had, which probably wasn't something they had the resources for. In the show, you get the sense that the Northern Water tribe either became isolationist as a result of the war or has always been (they were still using Fire nation uniforms from decades ago, and we never really see them outside of the tribe), so we can assume that they didn't pose a threat to the Fire Nation, whereas the Earth Kingdom 1000% would have launched attacks against the fire nation if a prolonged war between the Fire Nation and the Water Tribe happened (we even see them planning an offensive against the Fire Nation on the day of black sun before Ba Sing Se falls, and that's with the Fire Nation's focus on them [although the fire nation navy was severely weakened after the siege of the north]). I think the reason the southern water tribe was decimated as opposed to the north was actually two fold in this instance. It seems like the south was significantly more involved in supporting the Earth Kingdom, even after all the water benders were killed off by the time of the show. As a result, it makes sense that the Fire Nation would have targeted them whether or not they had equivalent fortifications to the North (although it seems like they were more vulnerable).
4, It's not crazy to believe that the Air Nomads would have documented the birth of Aang and had letters shared between the temples identifying him as the Avatar. It's also not crazy to believe that in the invasion, someone from the Southern Air temple could have been coerced into saying (or accidentally let slip, or volunteered spitefully) that Aang disappeared from the temple before the fire nation attacked and that he was long gone, which would be good enough evidence for Sozin that he had in fact escaped (especially after finding out that the avatar had already mastered air bending by age 12 and yet there were no reports of a 12 year old air bending master at the temple, see above to how he could have received this information). However, by the time of Sozin's death and in the following years, no reports of the avatar combined with no effort by such a figure to stop the Fire Nation would probably lead many to conclude that either the information Sozin got was faulty or that the Avatar got messed up as a result of an entire sect of the bending world being obliterated or some other mystical mumbo jumbo with the main point that the Avatar no longer existed. The reason Ozai sends Zuko out to look for the Avatar is expressly because it's pretty much an impossible task (or at least perceived to be so).
In conclusion, you asked some good questions, but your answers seem to me to be pretty wrong.
Judging by the IQ of the average firenation soldier presented in the show, this wasn’t Surprising
Maybe the fire nation did attempt to invade the north a couple times at the beginning of the war, but were unable to and signed a sort of peace deal, and that's why the northern water tribe hadn't seen fire nation armour in like 80 years
The fire nation couldn't place colonies and outposts in all those territories because they didn't have all those people. Take into account how small the fire nation is, if they have to keep all those outposts permanently populated they would be lacking soldiers in their navy. That's why they needed sozin comet so much, so esch attacking man would count as 10.
You usually don't colonize places with your active military personal.
You either send civilians or retired soldiers.
Also historical a nations population expands massively during an industrial revolution, because you can much produce much more food than before, so the fire nation should be overpopulated and in need for colonies anyway.
Thats one of the reasons why so many peopled emmigrated to the US from europe.
But I guess it could be possible that the industrilization didn't extend beyond the military. Almost all firenation machines needed fire bending to run and if the fire benders were to proud to run tractors or fishing boats, that could explain why the fire nation wasn't overpopulated
To be fair in regards to taking over the air temples, the fire nation only got flight capabilities near the end of the war. The first functional airship was build by the inventor in one of the airtemples together with Sokka, so they had as much trouble accessing them as the other nations would have had. That said it wouldn't be out of the question for them to just build some kind of infrastructure to make it more accessible for them, however that would take time and resources that would have been better suited for more easier to use land. Also colonization takes time and resources, both to first establish those colonies and then to protect the area from counterattacks and to keep the newly conquered people from causing trouble.
It's likely that the firenation did some kind of blitzkrieg strategy where they used the comet to quickly steamroll a lot of opposition, but eventually their army was stretched to thin to continue and a lot of their resources was needed just to keep it overall at a stalemate. The (almost) successes they show in the series might be that they gamble and do risky moves in desperation due to having confirmation of the Avatars return and/or that they had build up some resources that they didin't intend to use until the comets return.
That said it is also shown that the fire nation was somewhat wastefull with their resources, Zuko's exile started with him calling out a general for intentionally sending young inexperienced soldiers at a far stronger earth kingdom force, with the expectation that those soldiers likely wouldn't survive. The giant drill they use against ba sing se also seems like a waste of resources, though it's hard to say what alternatives they might have had. Though at the least infiltrators to weaken the city from the inside should have been a possiblity.
The North and Ba sing se were both really strong they were only winning against the North because of Zhao"s plan to kill the moon spirit and they couldnt beat the ba sing se wall untill they developed technology to drill it. By the time they formed these strategies the Avatar was around to stop them.
I'm not sure the Air Temples would be much use to the Fire Nation. The geographical advantage would probably be mostly negated or even made into a weakness by earthbenders (looking at you Western Air Temple). And the altitude of the more mountainous ones might have thinner air which could possibly nerf firebending.
Also I don't think they would be ideal for farming considering how uneven the terrain is.
Fire should technically be the weakest bending style. The three other elements can take fire out irl. The other nations shouldn’t have been easily oppressed by the Fire nation and should know about Sozen’s comet. The Fire nation could’ve easily ended up like the air benders in a more likely scenario.
Firebenders have the highest bender:nonbender ratio, i think averaged at about %40 - %50 of all firenation are benders. They also had far advanced technology in terms of machinery, and weapons, also due in fact to the usefulness in being able to firebend metals. Making standard non benders far more effective against the already outnumbered non benders of the other nations.
@@lilbroomstick7032Water bending is the strongest bending. All nations are islands and since Water bending grands naval superiority by default they can decide who trades with who. Air is the second strongest and earth is the third. Fire bending is a shitty low tier bending
@@eeg-rh7jv I mean fire isnt shitty, they terrified and dominated the entire world for nearly 100 years. now are they arguably the weakest? yes i think so. but given the other factors it played heavily in favor for the fire nation at the time. other nations couldnt create warships and weaponry nearly as quickly or as powerful as the fire nation could. others nations didn't have damn near half their population spewing out magic like the fire nation, and the one singular nation the air benders that literally had every single inhabitant a bender, didnt even have an army.
@@lilbroomstick7032 I mean realistically look at it this way: Earth kingdom is unconquerable because they can build fortifications in a matter of minutes thanks to their building and they can instantly repair any cracks. It also gives them a large mobility since they can make bridges and infrastructure instantly. The water tribes could use guerilla tactics with their boat. They use their bending to speed themselves up and then spawn large waves to sink the ships. The air tribe can manipulate the air and live in the sky the fire Nation should have never been able to conquer then even with the comets (the way the air nomads were written was really stupid tbh). That and the fact their bending is super agile and they would make great scouts.
@@eeg-rh7jv I actually agree with a lot of your points, I definitely understand. given what they can actually do fire benders are easily the LEAST versatile compared to any other element, but what i meant was given the time of history atla was in and the circumstances of the world building it made sense the fire nation was as powerful as it was at that time.
Well the only way the fire Nation wiped out the airbenders was because of Susan's comet so that's why it's taking them so long because they need Susan's comment to be able to do what they were planning on doing
The point about thinking the Avatar is still alive. I don't remember which episode it is but in one of the flashbacks when Ange is born or Roku dies (however you want to look at it) there is a response from the temples, I mean the structures themselves.
Also as for your other question they weren't sure. All Sozin knew is that the avatar circle was still intact. He knew that because a fire sage, the father of the sage that helped Aang said the avatar survived. That he spiritually still existed.
While he wasn't immediately believed, Sozin chose to play both fronts. Keep hunting for remaining airbenders and imprisoning waterbenders. Also killing the dragons.
That way, whether the avatar survived or reincarnated it's very likely they got him, and even if the avatar somehow escapes he'll still most likely be unable to learn all the elements
Hm, fair and valid points and opinions, huh, interesting how things can go.
I've always felt this way but I've never heard anyone say it. Like, 100 years after the start of the war and they still haven't taken over so many places. It's a whole century. What were they actually doing during all that time? They were able to wipe out a whole culture, and already had colonies in the Earth Kingdom, plus they had the best technology and were the only industrialised civilisation... Then 100 years after all that, they still aren't occupying so many places despite apparently wanting to rule everywhere? It doesn't feel like they tried that hard.
I think the way the firing our nation was doing it how things had to go down
The Air Nomad temples were hugely inaccessible, with many thinking it the ability to fly to get to. Yes, that is something that can be overcome as the genocide established as did the Mechanist's refugee colony, it probably required a significant investment that the Fire Nation decided was just not worth.
Remember the ship blockade? You don’t need a literal wall of ships! They could’ve doubled the fleet attacking the northern water tribe with that.
Now that you mention it🤔 They would literally use rookie soldiers as cannon foder and that is mentioned in the show when discusing how Zuko got his scar. Also mentioned is how they would used captured soldiers as human bait on the front lines. The main plot itself was showing how either incompetent or more important being evil was with their "strategy" that they treated every person as pure pawns and never thought multiple steps ahead. Except on solar eclipse invasion strategies. Seems to be the only solid plan they had and I'm sure Azula did most of that planning work.
My thoughts on the Fire Nation invasion strategy: I think it was actually pretty good, the only reason why they didn't do any of what you suggested was because they simply didn't have the resources at the beginning of the war that they did near the end of the war.
Volcanic islands, like the Fire Nation homeland, tend to not have as many resources as the massive continent that the Earth Kingdom controlled. Hence, back when the war started, the Fire Nation probably just couldn't support the kind of navy that could meaningfully threaten the Northern Water Tribe's homeland.
That also explains why they didn't attack Kyoshi Island: it was on the other side of the world and too far behind enemy lines, so attacking it would have strained their supply lines way too much to justify taking a mere village.
This also explains why they didn't hold on to the Air Temples. Far from being prime real estate, they can only support the Air Nomads because the Air Nomads are few in number, and even that small number are reduced to subsistence farming. They cannot support not a full-scale colony, let alone an army, so the only use for these lands is to provide command posts and harbor and resupply points for ships. And we see the Fire Nation using Air Nomad lands like this: Whaletail Island, the Southern Raiders' main base, is in Air Nomad territory. The Air Temples themselves are useless for that role, so we don't see the Fire Nation occupying them. Also the Northern and Eastern Air Temples are just too far from the homeland and too far behind enemy lines to support at the start of the war.
But near the end of the war, the Fire Nation controlled most of the Earth Kingdom's productive areas and thus could supply an army big enough to take on the Northern Water Tribe and Ba Sing Se and easily defeat almost about any other target.
Volcanic Islands are very rich in aluminium, diamonds, gold, nickel, lead, zinc, and copper, which made the Fire Nation, well, rich.
@@remiremsar5946 True, but armies can't eat or drink aluminium, diamonds, gold, nickel, lead, zinc, or copper. For food and water you need farmland, rivers, and streams, and the Earth Kingdom at the beginning of the war would have much more of that.
The fire nation seems to have focused on the "easy targets" (and on industrialisation), the air nation they could remove in one strike so it was a low hanging fruit. Still this must have cost them quite a bit and air land was pretty barren and isolated (as they are based on the tibetian monks ). AIr ships are a more recent invention that came about thanks to Sokka that the fire nation didnt have earlier.
Its a similar story with the northern water tribe, they had few resources and had a massive environmental advantage with them using water and their giant water wall. The southern water tribe had the same situation as the Air nomads. Easy to destroy and no resources so they didnt manage to defend.
In contrast, the earth nation areas had actual value in their land and the fire nation navy and machines worked well on their land. Conquering key ports enabled the fire nation to gain iron and resources they needed for their military.
I think something worth adding is the Fire Nation likely was suffering Manpower shortage by the tail end of the 100 year war reading comic such as the lost adventures which takes place in book 3 Sokka (Weng Fire) was easily accepted in the Fire Army with little to no background check! Later in the comics while Weng Fire was cleaning the pig pend he over heard two soilder talking about the new recruits being shipped the next day with little to no additional training! And realizing he is screwed Weng Fired went AWOL. There is evidence through out the show the like Zuko getting his face burn when he spoke out about sending a Division (10,000 Non-bending) solider to die for little strategic value and that is when I realize the Fire Nation is bleeding manpower and had to make extreme decisions like using Sozin Comet to incinerate the whole Earth Kingdom which is just bonkers if you asked me!
Ok, so Ozai was ridiculously stupid, got it.
These people are more in confidence than Luigi Cadorna
I think they were hit with the "only one genocide in a kids show despite it not felling like one per Nickelodeon" stick
I'm not sure if you should factor in the Fire Nation's ability to fly in this. You were talking about them occupying Air Nomad territory in the early states of the war. A lot of air benders could fly, but we have seen very few fire benders capable of flight, and I really only remember them doing that when the comment was out.
Yes, the Fire Nation had zeppelins, but not until the last year of the war. Even then they stole it from an Earth Kingdom inventor. Still zeppelins and even small hot air balloons aren't all that piratical for moving about the mountains like that.
While they must of had farm land, I'm not sure how much of a population they could sustain. Granted it might of still been a good staging around for their navy.
Also after the genocide it might of left a bad taste in Sozin's mouth while trying to kill his old friend.
@Jarrod King I personally follow the theory that Sozin's Comet allowed the firebenders to rocket-boost onto the temples (plus, they were also trying to exterminate dragons).
The fire nation didn’t know about the moon and ocean spirits until zhao
If Iroh knew, there is no reason the Fire Nation didn't knew
Sozin probably lost who knows how many soldiers during his war. Before Sozin could take advantage of the land he he won he would need to breed more Firebenders to replace his losses. The same with Azulon. The best warriors died first in battle!
Wasn't Zhao only able to threaten the north because of his knowledge about the moon spirit?
If I remenber correctly it was stated that the north is basically undefeatable because of the power boost from the moon during the night.
Also the fire nation seems to be specialized in some sort of blitzkrieg, but not very capable at sustained operations, propably because of low overall manpower and bad logistics.
They also seemed to have massive problems with holding what they already conquered. Omashu seemed to be freed by Buumi alone in like 15 minutes until the sun returned and Ba Sing Se also probably could only be held with the support from the Dai Lee judging by how just a few old guys could free it, despite all the enemy benders being boosted massively by the comet
Why would they choose a few island when they need their entire army for the earth kingdom? The earth kingdom was the price they wanted and needed. The temples were only interesting because they wanted to kill the avatar. Why go for small agriculture land in the mountains while you have a huge continent for the taking. Same thing for the northern water tribe. Compared to Ba Sing Say the air temples and northern water tribe are just not that interesting. They could conquer/ colonize them later after securing the Earth kingdom...the real prize.
prize and price arent the same thing
@@Testingthisname thanks, damn autocorrect!
The logic I apply to the FN believing (or at least suspecting) that the Avatar survived the ANG is that no 12 year old went god-mode on them. It’s a defence mechanism, meant to be activated when the Avatar is in serious peril if they don’t have control over it themselves yet. No glowing eyes, no Avatar, hence their survival. Now, it’s possible that the Avatar was taken off-guard so they didn’t have time for the State to activate, but they’re not sure. So he either survived, or was reborn into one of the Water Tribes.
Personally, I’m not so sure that Azulan wasn’t already alive at the time Roku died. Especially considering Roku was grandfather to Zuko’s mother, I’m pretty sure that both his child and Azulan were already alive; just fairly young when the events at the volcano happened. Plus, we’ve seen multiple times in both TLA and Korra that age knows no bounds when it comes to one’s inner power, so a very old Sozin could still have been the one to lead the Fire Nation against the Air Nomads using the power of his namesake comet. So say he lived another 20 years (since we know for sure he lived another 12 considering the attack happened after Aang left the temple); that’s a good 92 years before the events of TLA, and we can see through flashbacks that Azulan was not young when Azula and Zuko were growing up. Heck, he had to be taken down by poison, so if not for that, he could have probably lived another 10-30 years more! 😅 My prediction is that: 1-Sozin lived to well over 100 years old (Bumi is proof that this wasn’t uncommon at the time); 2-Azulan also lived either close to or past 100 years old, only being brought down by the coup in his own family; 3-Azulan at the time of Roku’s death was in his teens or 20s, which puts him in his 30s by the time of his father’s comet, and if we guessed that Zuko was around 18ish at the time of TLA, and was 10ish during that flashback, then Azulan lived to at least 92 years old, assuming he was 20 at the time of the comet; 4-I can see I already disproved #2, but you seem to get the point here! 😅
Tl;Dr: There’s so much allusion that Azulan was around at the time Roku was killed, as well as the parent of Zuko’s mother that was Avatar Roku’s child, and regardless of how much interbreeding the 100 year old Fire Nation colony on the edge of the Earth Kingdom did with the locals, 100 years isn’t that long; I’d say it’s possible, if not probable, that Azulan was around when Roku died, disproving the whole argument about how Sozin could have had a kid at his age-he didn’t.
I believe that he knew aang was still alive because if he meet aang. Aang would go avatar state on sozin with all the emotions in him
I think there are a lot of internal problems in the Fire Nation but we know nothing about them so that's why their conquest was so slow. Like surely there was an oposing side which was anti war and they needed a lot of military police to not be overthrown. Colonising requires military which they didnt have that much because of revolutionaries. The victories that Fire Nation had were practically blitzkrieg they couldnt handle battles like the siege of Ba Sing Se yet. So yep I think the era of Azulon was more of a stabilizing the new empire period but put a little pressure on our enemies. This makes a lot on sense since we see none anti Fire Lord feelings inside the nation.
Even if they don't take over residence in the temple, they could have always made a new city alongside the coast or idk make a staircase to reach the temple instead of flying up each time like a sensible person would.
They started looking for the avatar because there hadn’t been a water tribe avatar yet 100 years later.
There is an alternate universe where they killed all the air benders (even Aang) and the fire nation sacked both poles, there is an Avatar from the Soggy Swamp
I just thought of something very important here. If Ang tries to be born as a Airbender how would that even be possible if the whole group is annihilated? I get the whole Spirit portal stuff and Kora but what if that never happened?
It seems like the fire nation took a heavy loss when invading the air temples. They would have regrouped while they waited for the avatar to appear since the sages must’ve known he was alive.
They would also be spread thin since they were invading spots all over the world. Launching massive invasions on ba sing se and preparing for the invasion of the north pole since zhao found a plan to give him an absolute victory instead of taking more chances with a loss. Sozins comet was also right around the corner to give them a for sure victory in ba sing se as well. It makes sense to slowly weaken the world and save those “impenetrable” cities for last since they’re fall would cause the nations to surrender
Or viceversa. The writers should have at least made the Water Tribes take over the northern and southern Air temples when they were stronger and worked with the mechanist so they have a better chance against the Fire Nation.
There is a giant earth kingdom owned land mass between the northern watertribe and the fire nation. Continous raids similar to what they diď with south is unfeasible. They first had to conquer the earth kingdom territory separating them which was hardr
Yes, and having the Air Temples occupied would have made the conquering a lot easier.
My opinion - Azulon wasn't as hungry for domination as Ozai and Sozin. Kind of like Zuko and Azula. Azula is the perfect heir to a Sozin/Ozai, whereas a pre-avatar Zuko would probably have went the Azulon path. Stagnating the invasion, but keeping what lands you have? Idk.
One of the stupidest things the fire nation did was hunt down the Dragons instead of oh, I don't know- TRAINING DRAGON RIDERS TO USE AS AN AIR FORCE.
Second I really like the video
I mean the air temples and stuff are harsh mountain islands arent they? Thats the reason why the air nomads were nomads.. its not really a place you Can settle in..
Dude, it's just a mountain, they had industrial technology, I think they already had pulley systems and staircases figured out ffs. Besides, the temples were perfectly habitable, I think they were the equivalent of nunneries where they raised the youth until they could take off on their own.
- I don't really see them as incompetent. The Air Nomad Genocide, while necessary to ensure there wasn't a repeat of Roku hoisting Sozin up a column of earth made from the rubble of his own palace, also made it so no other nation would want to engage with the Fire Nation as anything other than a likely enemy.
- I'm not sure Air Nomad land would be attractive to the Fire Nation. The Air Nomads were secluded from the world, so without their dragons (who might not cooperate with them, given that they do seem to possess some intelligence), reaching the lands around the temples would be difficult. Earth Kingdom land would likely be more suitable for the agriculture that the Fire Nation was used to (and given the large amounts of meat they seem to eat for an island nation with what appears to be little suitable farmland, I suspect that at the time of the show they were importing quite a bit of meat from the colonies). The development of airships would make Air Nomad territory more feasible, but that's a more recent development.
- The Fire Nation did attempt to go for the Water Tribe. It just took them a long time to wear them out. They didn't just show up at the Southern Water Tribe one day and wipe them all out, Hama fought in many battles. And for all we know, there had been other villages in the Southern Water Tribe who had been fighting for longer. Keep in mind that the Fire Nation is one of the most sparsely populated nations (other than the Air Nomads), so attacking the Water Tribe on their home turf (and taking the logical losses from doing so) is going to be taxing on the Fire Nation. They can't just go all in, a long term attack, damage, retreat strategy is more necessary.
- As for why the Fire Nation focused on the Earth Kingdom, that was the real prize. They wanted resources, and the Earth Kingdom had them. Much like Imperial Japan, the Fire Nation had a growing population and was confined to a small living space. This created pressure to expand, and the Earth Kingdom was the logical choice. As for why the Earth Kingdom was able to resist for so long....... they weren't. A large chunk of the Earth Kingdom is the Si Wong Desert, which is of interest to nobody but has the benefit of hindering the Fire Nation as well. On the other hand, pretty much the entire western section of the Earth Kingdom was either colonized or a day away from being raided. Ba Sing Se was the only "safe place", and even if there were no drill or Azula, the strategy of "everyone hide in this one city state until the Fire Nation gets bored" was not sustainable in the long term. The Fire Nation was slowed in its conquest by the process of settler colonization. They didn't just want to conquer the Earth Kingdom, they wanted to import their own people, and that meant making the new homes for those people safe while they set up their new lives, which takes time and resources.
To be honest a writers probably never thought about that
You make a lot of good points the fire nation got hit with the stupid stick
Resources, most of the questions you have about why they didn't certain things are because of resources. The Fire Nation is small in comparison to the Earth Kingdom, why would they try to conquer small islands when they need people and military resources in their colonies in the Earth Kingdom where they serve a double purpose: they get resources and maintain in line the original population? Also, the attack on the North Tribe was an incredible use of resources, a one time thing if you wish; Zhao was given command of all of it most likely because he proved he had a way to win once and for all, it was not something they could keep doing and most likely the waste of so many lives and ships contributed to the defeat of the Fire Nation at the end of Avatar.
To the other question, the one about the avatar, there could be several ways they know the avatar didn't die: perhaps they tortured some air nomads, perhaps the Fire sages knew because of the temples, perhaps because they had spies in the water tribes (remember, for this point the world was not as fragmented as it was in the show time)
Yes, but you also have to admire Zhao's stupidity in attacking the Water tribes in the days of the month of the full moon when the new moon days were perfectly available. Besides, if you control the air temples that are right beside you, you duplicate the expansion of your territory and that makes you a hell of a threat. Look at the map.
5:37 they didn't have the technology for flight yet at this point. It could be that they didn't see spending resources to create and maintain logistics to occupy the temples. One of the problems the fire nation had seems to be resources, that's why they colonized resource rich areas in earth kingdom first. Adding the idea of limited resources to the mix makes some of their decisions reasonable.
Why spend manpower to occupy Kyoshi island when they're pretty much isolated and pacified anyway, and you have control of the larger Whale Tail Island nextdoor?
Is a continuous attack on the Northern Water Tribe viable with limited resources at the time when the new colonies from which the resources come from would still be under threat from stronger local resistance? Is it still necessary when people are starting to believe or be convinced that the avatar didn't reincarnate anymore?
How about manpower? Does the island nation have enough manpower to occupy a vast continent while also maintaining a massive navy.
For 7:32, Earth Kingdom didn't have a significant navy. That's why they sought the help of the fire nation to solve their problems with pirates, pretty much handing naval dominance to them.
Not every detail could be shown or given as exposition in the show, so I appreciate expansions or later explanations in the lore.
The only Earth Kingdom ships in the whole series are the one that Zuko made up when explaining how his ship got damaged, and the ferry to Ba Sing Se.
The air temples are designed in a way that only people with airbending can reach them. The fire nation didnt have the ability to fly back then and only got it during the show thanks to them fidning sokka's air balloon so they didnt have a way to reach the temples in the first place.
For the part about wondering if the earth kingdom has ships, yes they do. When Zuko lies to Zhao he said we hit an earth kingdom ship. Additionally t fire nation didn’t get air travel until the war balloons were made by the mechanist. The fire sages knew the avatar hadn’t died or been reincarnated. You have a point about setting up colonies at the air temples but it could also become hard to clean it all up and then lie to the country about the nomads slaughter. The fact they had no military despite in season 3’s episode the headband the teacher doesn’t know that and in fact they were led to believe many falsehoods. They likely were taught they were aggressive or violent to justify the genocide. It’s hard to lie when standing in the crime scenes constantly. While maybe not attacking the north more often makes sense it also doesn’t make sense to prioritize it. The wall they have and how isolated they are is insane. They are at severe disadvantages and lack of ability to call for reinforcements are hard.
The incompetence of this video | A Smarty Pants the UA-cam channel discussion
Glad you are not a Super Villian. You would be so good at it.
From what a friend told my authoritarian and fascist regimes millarty are not as competent as many seem to think due political rivalry and infighting for control certain troops are effective. With Russia invasion of ukraine being the most recent example
Your friend is really dumb then by making incoherent comparisons
fascism doesnt have political rivalry. Just full single party mindset of nationalism. you are thinking of communism in which it is run by oligarchs of a party vying for their own gain
Well they most likely got to air temple via dragons then you know they had to off them after wards and keep in mind when zuko learns about the true history we see ozai with mechanical parts behind him now this might be a stretch but what if the fire nation only truly industrialized under ozai.
To talk about north it's because the north was a water be sing sa before Zhou killed the moon spirit the fire nation was losing the fight even with what we see to be hundreds of ships and with it being admiral Zhou the amount of resources he must have used to still be in a stalemate pre spirt rampage means any less would Be a failure.
The fire nation if my theory is right can't afford to pound on north for centuries or their people will get anger over the loss of life they need big flashy victory with good profits southern raids were flashy victory earth nation was good profits the north was mostly inactive so why anger a sleeping giant
The strategy they take with the Water Benders initially is pretty smart. Hama states that they were taking them alive and holding them. Which is Zhao’s strategy with the real Avatar later. Better to know who the Avatar is than have to find them. It’s only later they start killing them, the idea seeming to be they don’t know who the Avatar is anymore.
Probably should have attacked the Water Tribes first though.
I think they started killing them because Hama discovered bloodbending and they crapped their pants.
Yeah true
can..boats go on land?
I think this makes this even more realistic, like the spread of the japanese empire which had no other meaning to it then conquest, only attempting to culturally change korea.
I always viewed the seiging/assaulting the Northern Water Tribe as the embodiment of the quote “when engaged in war, do not seek out another one unless you can win both” - this is a HUGE BASTARDIZED VERSION OF IT - but effectively the reason they did not siege the north is because comparatively, the South was far less fortified, established and developed. The Southern Water Tribe was formed from northern water benders migrating to the south, so anyone who was a student of history in universe would know that the South more than likely boasts a smaller population, a non existent navy (Kyoshi books state that southern Water Tribe pirates were wiped out, are the reason the South has no navy), and the two tribes being together officially, but their populations being divided. Making them the ideal target. Especially since they were already trying to colonize the earth kingdom, the best they could hope for was raiding the South. As for why they only attacked it after 100 years, I’d say that’s because they needed to make sure they had the supplies (taken from the Earth kingdom), a large enough navy (built on the backs of Earth Kingdom POWs), and a damn good commander with an even better strategy, (two things that only appeared after 100 years when Zhao, say what you will, not only became a commander but discovered the secret to defeating the Water Tribe permanently). Not to mention the northern Water tribe are isolationist. As for achieving victory only in the current timeline, I’d say the Fire Nation was fighting both the long and short war. As stated above, they cut off the Northern Earth kingdom, which if you believe in World building, is where most of the fertile land located. So over the last 100 years, the fire nation has been building economically- taxing the Earth Kingdom cities and towns they conquered, industrially - forced labour camps to build their weapons and materials, and population - populating the earth kingdom land, forcing people out of their homes, and consuming their food. Starving the Earth Kingdom year by year, until the only places that are considered safe - Ba Sing Se and Omashu - that they are already under siege, they just don’t know it yet.
Weren't the army held off by an old man's club? Just saying it wasn't all the Avatar's show in that war.
The war dragged on because of FN cockiness and laziness, and because of Dai Li meddling in the EK. The only reason the FN kicked things into high gear was BECAUSE the avatar returned. Otherwise, even the return of Sozin's Comet would've been greeted with a lazy but flashy invasion and small scale genocide. Assuming the FN hadn't fallen into civil war by that point due to the war causing them to become almost bankrupt.
to be fair, warfare is pretty hard to in colder climates if you are not used to it, retreating into the pole would probably be enough to stop any fire natio invasion, considering that they can somehow get food
They have heat to cope with the cold and ballons to bypass fortifications so no excuses
@@eeg-rh7jv cold weakens fire bending, and balloons were only invented after the start of the show
@@3_14pie Eh fair point, but honestly the fire Nation could just use their ships as long range artillery and bombard the city until their ground troops can advance. But because of bad writing they conveniently forgot to use their number superiority
@@eeg-rh7jv yep, they would have a considerable advantage on a siege, it's even reasonably well depicted when they finally decided to lay siege to the north on the show
@@3_14pie so then how are the southern water tribes still alive? They should have fallen or at least be starving from such a long siege
also if they thought the avatar did reincarnate into the water tribe . like the video said, only went for the southern tribe. so not only did they miss the north, but the foggy swamp. whos not to say the avatar couldnt be a swamp person.
While the criticism is fair, politics just doesn't work like that. If we take a real world example, China could be compared to the fire nation in modern terms. Do you think if they were to ever, you know, just colonize Cyprus to get closer to EU or Cuba to get closer to the US that there wouldn't be a severe repercussion? Despite having a lot of power, 1 against 2 nations will end in defeat. But at the same time, the 2 nations don't want to provoke the other to avoid loss in people and the economy. A 100 year stalemate is pretty much realistic. All they could do is just drop in Fire Nation settlements to have a foothold in areas but not be seen as a full occupation or threat. They can patrol and see what's going on in those areas to see if the avatar is around or there are new innovations that can be used against them without provoking the defensive nations.
Your point is quite sound given the complex situation of the avatar world pre-war, and I agree with that conclusion of how a 100 year stalemate would be quite realistic. It also stands to point that the Fire Nation's strategy seems to have been very long-term in nature. Instead of attacking the fortified northern water tribe or the walls of Ba Sing Se directly, both of which they had the opportunity to do but were very risky operations, they prioritized invading and settling the northwestern Earth Kingdom to gain access to its large agricultural capacity and abundance of mineral resources, something supported by the avatar comics and the show. Thus it seems their strategy was to outcompete the northern water tribe and the Earth Kingdom, by taking some of the more profitable lands of the latter to bolster their economy and allow them to grow further, ensuring their victory with time from superior manpower, technology, and industrial capacity.
my deceased friend said the Fire nation isn't incompetent or Stupid , they just has he said in his theories that they're an nation full of high functioning to genius level people who have an form of autism spectrum disorder where most fire nation people are second in craftiness and cunning in ideas only to Adult swim networks Rick c-137 in the series Rick and Morty (who he said Rick in the series is an mentally Disabled higher functioning person who despite having an form of autism spectrum disorder is an mega genius intellect who copes with his disabilities and Faults and or failings by using booze and other substances as an coping mechanism , so are the fire nation incompetent or stupid ,no it's they're complicated to define their brains and wits.....
Examples:
Ozai’s inventors built the drill ( To try to breach Ba-sing-se ) which is an giant battleship/ Tank/ Drilling machine ( thank war Minister Ching )
The airships ( which they took the Machinists design and advance it’s design from basic war balloon to create coal powered blimps or zeppelins) thank again the ideas and brilliance of Azula and war Minister Ching yet again…
Lastly in series 2 ( legend of Korra) Hiroshi Sato was an descendent of Fire nation colonists and invented mecha suits and Airplanes as well as Iron man mock style inventions ( which he used 1930’s technology to built low-tech mocks of what people compare to The hulk buster suit in Avengers: age of ultron, only with gears pistons and vacuum tubes)
Now those are examples of why their intellects are second only to Rick and Morty’s Rick in the brains department…
Read the story of England, you will be surprised at the amount of geniuses you will find.
While Zhao does make Zapp Brannigan look like Napoleon, I'd say the other nations are substantially worse.
I mean we do have 100 years worth of assumingly non stop war, so we shouldn't assume the earth kingdom to be at the hight of their power.