Well spoken, Ocean. You have, in this past year especially, put on a clinic of what it's like to be a non-toxic and healthy leading voice in any community. It's always refreshing to drink the water or the mead, here. Hail to you, good sir.
I guess that means that you're vaxxed like him? Nothing like being in ideological lockstep with the Masonic-science! I just wasn't expecting to hear "anti-vaxx pagans" this morning! Wow... the heart disease/cancer/clot shot. At least us "anti-vaxx pagans" will still be around to keep things going.
Not disagreeing. But what is meant by non-toxic and healthy? Were the pagan Danes what anyone would call non-toxic and healthy in the same sense? We say we want a religion that is kind, friendly, open to everyone. A religion that moves with the times. We say we want this because we are like this already and we fear change. We say we want a religion like this, but what we mean is that we can do without it. We can go on being whatever we like, we needn’t drag religions down or up with us. What we want is a religion that moves the world. Not another religion that moves along with it. Cast Runes and let your ancestors vote. Why shouldn’t their say count as much as ours?
As someone veering towards eclecticism, this was wonderful to hear. Also might I add that you, Aliakai, Beofeld, and Wolf pulled me away from WoO and I thank you for it. I would have totally followed him down that culty rabbit hole so thank you
Hello, I'm fairly new in the pagan community, what does WoO mean? I see it around a fair amount and google is failing me. Yours is capitalized differently than I usually see though so it might be something else.
Even as a Norse pagan I actually often go to the Vedic texts and traditions to understand myself and my worldview. Considering that they're at least 6000 years old and of Indo-European descent I l've filled in several of the blank spots where the Germanic sources fall short.
@@jasontscott-west6037 ew. Hinduism and Germanic beliefs was share a common origin point but there’s such a vast difference of place and time it’s like comparing whales and hippos as nearly identical because of their shared ancestry.
@@heathenpride7931 no, it's like knowing that they share anatomical things and use this knowledge in your favor when something is missing on the hippo.
@@heathenpride7931 look into old Vedic and upnishadic texts and you will see your folly. They preserve the ways of the old. While Germanic peoples abandoned their gods for yhvh, India had it's own shares of Yhvhs, only difference was that Indian monotheists could say that they their religion was "indigenous" and not imported Judaism.
Do you think braggi ever sits in the shower reinacting his argument with loki in aegirs hall, thinking of some fire roast he should of used instead of just trying to appeas him.
Catholic/monotheistic follower here (hopefully that's not patronizing). I get equally frustrated with the 'Trads vs Rads' battle happening in the western church. Really enjoy your method of approaching spirituality - in this video and beyond.
Correct christian vision of god is as a Monarchia. Monotheism is a protestant invention first used by Henry More. A more fitting term would be monolatrism.
I've always been a fan of the idea of "The best idea is the idea that works best for you." This is the primary reason I embrace the idea of Electicism. But y'know, I see no value is knocking reconstructionists for doing recon; this is what works best for them.
I'd hesitated to call myself 'Reconstructionist' before. While I still don't know I would call myself that- I think you've opened up my notions of what it is. Thanks for this topic, Ocean!
There's a better identification. A contemporary heathen. A person learns and applies the lessons of the stories to their own life, and honor the Gods who they identify with the most based on who they are.
I've been resisting the call to Norse paganism because of the association to white supremacists. You've shown me the other side Ocean and for that I am extremely grateful!
As a new Heathen I had someone just the other day ask me about my Mjolnir pendant, so I told them about my new faith. First thing they asked, “Isn’t that just neo naziism?”... sometimes people are just ignorant. Doesn’t mean they are stupid, it means you have an opportunity to teach. And by teaching, you find the facts of why you believe yourself.
Beautifully articulated Ocean, you manage to put out information on both without coming off as antagonistic to either and perfectly outline some of my own thoughts on the issue
Reconstructionism can summed to be thus, "You build an alter to read thousands of books, you don't read thousands of books to build an alter" (-Ocean).
Isn't viewing things through a narrow lens and shaming others what turned us ALL away from Christianity? My practice is Eclectic mainly because I'm totally new at this and there are few other pagans to reach out to in my area. That being said, there are a few Reconstructionists that I reach out to in order to learn and better my own practice. So I think regardless of which position you identify with, there is a part of the other in there. But what do I know? I'm a total noob.
Why use the term "Pagan" though? Why pretend any of this postmodern anti-fascist stuff has anything to do with the ancient religions of pre-Christian Europe, of all times and places? There are so many religions that are still alive, or you could just say you are a New Ager, or just simply say "I'm spiritual, I don't like labels." Why appropriate ancient Pagan motifs that have nothing to do with your modern way of life and worldview?
Chaire Ocean! You are an amazing influence to not only the Norse Polytheist community, but to all of the Pagan communities and beyond. You are such an olive branch to the atheists and create respect from the dogmatic Abrahamic faiths. Hail to you and thank you for the great work you do!!
Someone who has an eclectic approach can claim to be a reconstructionist, since eclecticism existed in the ancient world--and still exists in some of the religious practices of East Asia and India.
I dunno...I can totally see what your saying. It's true that some did adopt other peoples deities, but reconstructionists are called to specific pantheons and their religious practices.
@@bezoticallyyours83 But isn't that a modern--i.e. fundamentalist--approach? Pre-Christian peoples, in many cases, especially among the educated classes, saw the gods of other tribes as local names for their own gods, welcomed in new practices, or took a "when in Rome...." approach.
@@gregcampwriter Not at all. A fundamentalist approach is being nasty and rigid and refusing to accept any other way then yours. These people are simply called and they chose to answer, because that's what is right for their personal path. Doesn't mean they can't be flexible. Of course you're better off asking them. They can educate you better on what they believe.
@@gregcampwriter You were the one who added modern fundamentalist terms, when I said nothing of the sort. Fundamentalism is associated negatively with zealots, particularly in the modern day. Once upon a time it probably did have a different meaning. To reconstruct means to rebuild or restore something right? For example some people are called to specific pantheons and religious practices and wish to restore that religion in the modern day. Maybe its because they've always been fascinated by the history and mythology that started them on that path and introduced them to their Gods? Maybe its because it was always part of their own rich cultural heritage and they want to right the wrongs of historical destruction and conversion? Whatever their reaons may be, they willingly chose to answer it. It's really not that difficult to understand, and it is not meant to be negative or restrictive. I'm just an eclectic, so as I said, it's best for you to talk to actual reconstructionists because they can give you better insight and answers.
I mean it's a bit of a prerequisite to being a pagan to be a nerd... love how this video also talks about the complexity of both of these movements within paganism. Keep it up these are so good and I will continue to recommend these to friends!!!
neeeerrrrddd But yeah, they're both very complex, and there's a reason why they're both so heavily populated. I wanted to make sure I explored that fairly.
I end up being eclectic, I have always had an interest in reconstruction but i didn’t know where to start. However I remember reading the story of Odin at the well of wisdom. He tore his own eye out to gain wisdom that thought me that there was value in wisdom. He was also a traveler so though redundant to say, he has been to many places and spoken to many people. I do my best to do the same through reading books from various cultures. I always remember my roots and do my best to stay sceptic of what I read. This was a well worded video and I thank you for the reminder to reflect on my journey and what it has thought me so far.
As an Eclectic Pagan, I really appreciate the educated and thoughtful way that you communicated this information and it has given me a new-found respect for both my path and the path of Reconstructionism. Thank you for taking the time to make this and putting so much thought into it!
It was always the smell of campfire.. on a summer or winter night the feeling never changed.. I felt a calming feeling even alone I was at peace. I was drawn to the outdoors almost to much so, I spend a lot of time there and there’s a feeling of home.. my past aside to feel at home broke me open and I knew I had the wanderer following me till I was ready to have the talk and accept my roots. The tree of life has always sheltered us from the harshest storms! Hail to the gods!
Yeah, we need to stamp out European paganism once and for all. Europeans have never had any connection with the divine, unless we're talking about the Sami or Roma or Jews.
I walk a fine, weird, hazy line in the middle between eclectic and reconstructionist -- values of both paths make me a wiser person, I think, personally. and your videos enrich my life and practice greatly. incredibly well spoken, Ocean. appreciate the channel so much.
Earned my subscription. You were objective. And as someone who falls on eclectic side, it feels good to see some of the problems i have come across in my own practice laid out with possible solutions. Thank you sir.
Ok, so discovered your channel yesterday, and I have to say, I was pretty nervous heading in, as I have heard tell of the horrors of the AFA and others within this particular pagan community, which always struck me as incredibly sad that such a stain exists within the Neopagan community. However, I have been pleasantly surprised at the guts you have to simply state what you know to be wrong, and what you find personally enligtening and/or interesting, and to state it very eloquently and with tongue-in-cheek humour I might add! All that out of the way, I wanted to draw your attention to eclecticism within ancient paganism itself; for example, the vast spread of the cults of Isis and Hecate, as well as the Interpretatio Romania of both Germanic and Brythonic gods and traditions, and vice versa, and in particular the fact that Alexander the Great declared himself the son of Amun and became Pharaoh of Egypt, which led to religious and stylistic synchrotisms such as statues of the god Zeus-Amun (look it up, you'll never unnsee Zeus with horns!) and other Greek and Egyptian artistic blends. I find all this incredibly fascinating, so wanted to share it, as an eclectic pagan myself
There are no Pagans in the 21st century. You would be sickened and horrified by their typical beliefs and practices, just as they would be horrified by yours.
This is such a mature, nuanced take on this subject which I really respect. I’m currently reading Ronald Hutton’s Pagan Britain so the issue of the difficulties and complexities of reconstructing belief systems from archaeology as well as the issue that historians ascribe ideas, concepts and events to the past based on their own culture’s beliefs are at the forefront of my mind.
As a neurodivergent, disabled young person who doesn’t have a lot of easy access to necessarily friendly/unbiased pagan folk to learn from, I’ve found for a long time I have no idea what I am for sure yet, I’m still gradually learning. So I just say I’m the pagan equivalent of that one super busy Christian who still believes but hardly has time to go to church 😆 honestly when you mentioned the thought of running into the woods away from everyone else I couldn’t stop laughing
How did i miss this when it originally came out? Once again Ocean, you have distilled a multifaceted debate into words of wisdom. I was a recon for over a decade and eventually went the road of the eclectic. But your video has me rethinking a few things right now. That’s maybe the best complement I can pay you. Well done.
Thank you for this Ocean! Up until now I didn’t know I was an eclectic pagan I just thought I wasn’t “pagan enough” to fit in with others. I’m a huge history nerd and I love researching ancient faiths, but what drew me in was the experience of being approached by a god at a young age, and if I invest too deeply into the past, I start to forget what I currently have. For example, when I study Greek deities he is associated with, I start to “impose” characteristics and personality onto him which he has never presented to me. It can be helpful to research for me in moderation, but if I go too far I can’t connect back to that same feeling. That original entity. You’ve given me a sense of identity and validation in the pagan community now, so thank you!
Very well balanced and respectful without being pandering or overly simplistic in any way. I've been trying to put this explanation together in my own mind for a very, very long time. I'm so glad that you were able to describe the various Paths in such a solid way. Well done.
This is relatable because I grew up Christian around churches and my father was a pastor for a time. That put me on a path of becoming more eclectic because growing up with laws and traditions shoved into yourself isn't always helpful. It came to a point where I really needed to experience a relationship with divinity because studying textbooks and getting an A on tests wasn't gonna cut it for me. I needed more than just evidence. I needed to walk the walk and have the gods pave the road for me. 100% though, I cannot rely completely on just profound mystical experiences because it's no joke that there are really forces out there that want to hinder our journey and relationship with the heavens. A person really has to be hard on their mystical experiences and challenge them.
Loved this video. You said everything that needs to be said on this topic. We should all stand together and learn from each other. That is the path to growth.
Your nerdiness helps a lot of people with the amount of information you have, especially with the cluster fluck of CERTAIN PEOPLE spreading false or dangerous info. Thanks again for another amazing video :)
I want to distagree with a few points here, but honestly I can't. So that's awkward. 😆 Sidenote: I actually have a black sun necklace lying around somewhere, because it looked like a cool symbol and I had no idea about it's history way back when I bought it. Erm. Whoops. This is why learning about history is important no matter if you're trying to copy the old ways or just take inspiration for personal reinterpretations.
I've got to say that it is really inspiring to listen to you talk about the religions and to experience threw your knowledge your faith. Truly you are a remarkable person. I consider my self as a "seeker". I do not claim a faith per say... Although your explanation do make me wanna dive more in to this one. Keep up the good work.
I feel like there has to be a balance of both. My matron is Tiamat. I almost have to go by feeling because of how little is there for her...that isn't easy because of DnD and SMITE making it even harder to find info on her. I'm in the Eclectic camp but I see the validity in historical research. I found you yesterday and I am loving the content so far my dude!
I have been questioning so much, and this was the first video I stumbled across in my search for like minded people. You are so helpful, and I thank you so very much.
Really informative video, thank you for making the distinctions and I learned something new about the term NeoPagan. I'm definitely a history nerd, more of a folklorist or secular/atheist loosely interested in pagan ritual and very much love your channel's content.
This is so well spoken. So glad to have found my tribe of nerds! Seriously though, it is SO AWESOME to hear you speak of oppression dynamics and cultural appropriation! Really appreciate your voice in a place I was worried I didn't fit anymore. Battling hate, bigotry and racism is tough work. Thank you for your intelligent message!
I'm so glad you posted this! There's so much misinformation and confusion about what even any of this is! Thank you! Thank you for being a level-headed logical person!!!!
Well said. I think the term I find most useful to me is revivalist because I find I land pretty much in the middle and walk a crooked path between them.
Thank you for this. As the 'Chieftain' of North West Heathens here in the UK this is something our members tend to struggle with quite often. Your words make a lot of sense sir and you have provided me with some much needed clarity this morning. Your best video yet I reckon!
As an eclectic pagan i'm so glad you touched on the appropriation of other cultures! It really is a problem and many just excuse it on "having the freedom to experience everything else" even when it's inappropriate and disrespectful of others religions/cultures/practices...
Thank you for this. I am definitely eclectic, and I love that you teased out the doubt quality with electics, because I am always dealing with it. I love your brain.
This is so perfectly detailed, touching on many different concepts, and problematic actions & assumptions. You do a wonderful job shutting down a lot of ignorant arguments and really show any nitpicking between the two sides is just plain silly.
Honestly speaking I resonate with your closing thoughts. Eclectics and Recons sounds like they should work well together. Almost like they are two side of the same Polytheistic coin. When I first started out after being introduced to Freyja during a Wiccan ritual I was more than likely an eclectic. I didn't know where to look and what sources to trust online so I focused on my own experiences and listened to those of others. But ever since finding your channel I've learned so much that I feel like my sense of Norse Paganism and understanding of it have doubled.
i really appreciate that you didn't denounce the eclectic side and actually listed some pros and cons to both sides and how we can learn from each other. surprisingly and depressingly refreshing
I used to be very eclectic and now I am leaning to a more recon approach. I struggled allot with being afraid I'd mess something up in my practice when I first went recon and it caused me to practice less often. Until I realized I'm still learning and filling in the gaps with what feels right is fine it is what everyone does anyway.
As an Eclectic witch, I thank you for your words. In my practice, the Norse pantheon is one that I honor. I hope there are more Heathens such as yourself to learn from.
I sit at an odd crossroads in my following of Hecate. I approached eclectically, but listening following Hecate's torch has often lead me to reconstruction.
We are all different pieces of the larger puzzle. We all play our roles for ourselves as well for each other. This made me think more on this and I greatly appreciate the good work.
Keep up the good work you have NO idea how much your content has helped me in finding my feet in heathenry and paganism in general because HOO boy is there alot of problems from overly aggressive arguing and bias-filled information or lack there of its easy to get detoured and disheartened.. just thank you for the great content and a reasonable voice that is willing to have an open mind and encourage discussion and learning but not opposed to shunning the experiences people feel too. just a big ol'thank you in general :)
Wow, this video made some really good points, and really made me think. Also the fact that I was nodding along and understanding everything you were saying reminds me how big of a fucking nerd I am lmfao
I like that you touched on the issues of appropriation of closed practice. I think this video was extremely well delivered and didn't try to look down on either paths, more just focus on the pros and cons. Honestly, that is something you rarely see in this area. As a recon myself, I have seen us get a bad rep in eclectic spaces and vice versa. I think it is far more important for us to have our own way while respecting the opposite side. We should both be open to constructive criticism as well, but the fighting between both camps is unnecessary, imo.
"What right do we have to strip the agency of the gods, in how they choose to interact with potential worshippers?" That is an EXTREMELY powerful idea. Very well-stated.
I see myself a bit as a eclectic pagan, but instead of worshipping Gods, I admire nature. I like nature religions in general, Norse, Celtic, Native American, Slavic
Just want to thank you for your work, I'm a relatively new pagan who leans more eclectic although I love researching and incorporating as much recon as I can in my practice. And your channel has been an amazing help so far both for my knowledge and in my pursuit of faith.
Well spoken, Ocean. You have, in this past year especially, put on a clinic of what it's like to be a non-toxic and healthy leading voice in any community. It's always refreshing to drink the water or the mead, here. Hail to you, good sir.
I guess that means that you're vaxxed like him? Nothing like being in ideological lockstep with the Masonic-science! I just wasn't expecting to hear "anti-vaxx pagans" this morning! Wow... the heart disease/cancer/clot shot. At least us "anti-vaxx pagans" will still be around to keep things going.
I can drink to that
Not disagreeing. But what is meant by non-toxic and healthy? Were the pagan Danes what anyone would call non-toxic and healthy in the same sense?
We say we want a religion that is kind, friendly, open to everyone. A religion that moves with the times. We say we want this because we are like this already and we fear change. We say we want a religion like this, but what we mean is that we can do without it. We can go on being whatever we like, we needn’t drag religions down or up with us. What we want is a religion that moves the world. Not another religion that moves along with it. Cast Runes and let your ancestors vote. Why shouldn’t their say count as much as ours?
you're a lovable nerd, not annoying
awww
does that mean i can throw books at you and say "well actually" in the middle of your sentences?
@@OceanKeltoi That would make you a dork, not a nerd
@@missZoey5387 well, actually...
@@missZoey5387 whats the difference lol
@@OceanKeltoi Yes! I love that.
As someone veering towards eclecticism, this was wonderful to hear. Also might I add that you, Aliakai, Beofeld, and Wolf pulled me away from WoO and I thank you for it. I would have totally followed him down that culty rabbit hole so thank you
same here i have been pagan for a few years now and recently felt the pull to Norse mythology so glad I found Ocean and Wolf first
Hello, I'm fairly new in the pagan community, what does WoO mean? I see it around a fair amount and google is failing me. Yours is capitalized differently than I usually see though so it might be something else.
@@Bumbillion The Wisdom of Odin.
@@Bumbillion also a pun seeing a “woo” describes anti-science world view
@@Bumbillion I might have missed something then, what is it about wisdom of Odin?
Recons: find a way
Eclectics: make one
Even as a Norse pagan I actually often go to the Vedic texts and traditions to understand myself and my worldview. Considering that they're at least 6000 years old and of Indo-European descent I l've filled in several of the blank spots where the Germanic sources fall short.
That’s not a bad idea. Hinduism is Indo-European so there’s a shared cultural ancestry between the Norse religion and Hinduism.
@@jasontscott-west6037 ew. Hinduism and Germanic beliefs was share a common origin point but there’s such a vast difference of place and time it’s like comparing whales and hippos as nearly identical because of their shared ancestry.
@@heathenpride7931 no, it's like knowing that they share anatomical things and use this knowledge in your favor when something is missing on the hippo.
the norse and the hindu were once the same people.many people believe hinduisum comes from indo europeans.
@@heathenpride7931 look into old Vedic and upnishadic texts and you will see your folly. They preserve the ways of the old. While Germanic peoples abandoned their gods for yhvh, India had it's own shares of Yhvhs, only difference was that Indian monotheists could say that they their religion was "indigenous" and not imported Judaism.
Do you think braggi ever sits in the shower reinacting his argument with loki in aegirs hall, thinking of some fire roast he should of used instead of just trying to appeas him.
Its uncanny how often the best roasts only occur to us after the argument.
Catholic/monotheistic follower here (hopefully that's not patronizing). I get equally frustrated with the 'Trads vs Rads' battle happening in the western church. Really enjoy your method of approaching spirituality - in this video and beyond.
I was raised Lutheran and I still have Christianity as part of my eclecticism, so I guess I'm part of both of these battles.
Ah yes, Tradicals vs Raditionalists
Correct christian vision of god is as a Monarchia. Monotheism is a protestant invention first used by Henry More. A more fitting term would be monolatrism.
@@KarlKristofferJohnsson Interesting seeing you here ;P (TK - Joey)
@@M7dragon3 It's a small world!
I've always been a fan of the idea of "The best idea is the idea that works best for you." This is the primary reason I embrace the idea of Electicism. But y'know, I see no value is knocking reconstructionists for doing recon; this is what works best for them.
I'd hesitated to call myself 'Reconstructionist' before. While I still don't know I would call myself that- I think you've opened up my notions of what it is. Thanks for this topic, Ocean!
There's a better identification. A contemporary heathen. A person learns and applies the lessons of the stories to their own life, and honor the Gods who they identify with the most based on who they are.
I've been resisting the call to Norse paganism because of the association to white supremacists. You've shown me the other side Ocean and for that I am extremely grateful!
As a new Heathen I had someone just the other day ask me about my Mjolnir pendant, so I told them about my new faith. First thing they asked, “Isn’t that just neo naziism?”... sometimes people are just ignorant. Doesn’t mean they are stupid, it means you have an opportunity to teach. And by teaching, you find the facts of why you believe yourself.
@@kraftysandwich well said brother
Imagine my surprise at the call.
@@HroduuulfSonOfHrodger thank you! I'll definitely check out that site
Same here! I’m new to paganism and I’m definitely eclectic right now, but I didn’t even think about Norse Paganism until very recently.
Beautifully articulated Ocean, you manage to put out information on both without coming off as antagonistic to either and perfectly outline some of my own thoughts on the issue
Reconstructionism can summed to be thus, "You build an alter to read thousands of books, you don't read thousands of books to build an alter" (-Ocean).
*altar
Isn't viewing things through a narrow lens and shaming others what turned us ALL away from Christianity?
My practice is Eclectic mainly because I'm totally new at this and there are few other pagans to reach out to in my area. That being said, there are a few Reconstructionists that I reach out to in order to learn and better my own practice. So I think regardless of which position you identify with, there is a part of the other in there. But what do I know? I'm a total noob.
I feel like a lot of us start out eclectic for exactly this reason and as we learn more, we find a happy little niche to settle into. :)
Why use the term "Pagan" though? Why pretend any of this postmodern anti-fascist stuff has anything to do with the ancient religions of pre-Christian Europe, of all times and places? There are so many religions that are still alive, or you could just say you are a New Ager, or just simply say "I'm spiritual, I don't like labels." Why appropriate ancient Pagan motifs that have nothing to do with your modern way of life and worldview?
Chaire Ocean! You are an amazing influence to not only the Norse Polytheist community, but to all of the Pagan communities and beyond. You are such an olive branch to the atheists and create respect from the dogmatic Abrahamic faiths. Hail to you and thank you for the great work you do!!
well ruddy said Aristos
I will have to watch this again, paying too much attention to the chat. Welcome to all the new people!
Someone who has an eclectic approach can claim to be a reconstructionist, since eclecticism existed in the ancient world--and still exists in some of the religious practices of East Asia and India.
I dunno...I can totally see what your saying. It's true that some did adopt other peoples deities, but reconstructionists are called to specific pantheons and their religious practices.
@@bezoticallyyours83 But isn't that a modern--i.e. fundamentalist--approach? Pre-Christian peoples, in many cases, especially among the educated classes, saw the gods of other tribes as local names for their own gods, welcomed in new practices, or took a "when in Rome...." approach.
@@gregcampwriter Not at all. A fundamentalist approach is being nasty and rigid and refusing to accept any other way then yours. These people are simply called and they chose to answer, because that's what is right for their personal path. Doesn't mean they can't be flexible. Of course you're better off asking them. They can educate you better on what they believe.
@@bezoticallyyours83 You're adding nasty and rigid here, but you claimed that reconstructionists feel called to a specific way.
@@gregcampwriter
You were the one who added modern fundamentalist terms, when I said nothing of the sort. Fundamentalism is associated negatively with zealots, particularly in the modern day. Once upon a time it probably did have a different meaning.
To reconstruct means to rebuild or restore something right? For example some people are called to specific pantheons and religious practices and wish to restore that religion in the modern day.
Maybe its because they've always been fascinated by the history and mythology that started them on that path and introduced them to their Gods? Maybe its because it was always part of their own rich cultural heritage and they want to right the wrongs of historical destruction and conversion? Whatever their reaons may be, they willingly chose to answer it.
It's really not that difficult to understand, and it is not meant to be negative or restrictive.
I'm just an eclectic, so as I said, it's best for you to talk to actual reconstructionists because they can give you better insight and answers.
Excellently articulated and more or less perfectly outlining my thoughts on the matter too.
Why can't we smash the like button more than once?! Wonderfully articulated. I really enjoyed this. Definitely sharing
I'm really glad you enjoyed it!
I mean it's a bit of a prerequisite to being a pagan to be a nerd...
love how this video also talks about the complexity of both of these movements within paganism. Keep it up these are so good and I will continue to recommend these to friends!!!
neeeerrrrddd
But yeah, they're both very complex, and there's a reason why they're both so heavily populated. I wanted to make sure I explored that fairly.
I disagree, I am no nerd. Now, to settle it, send out one of your menfolk...it's Holmgang Time!
I end up being eclectic, I have always had an interest in reconstruction but i didn’t know where to start. However I remember reading the story of Odin at the well of wisdom. He tore his own eye out to gain wisdom that thought me that there was value in wisdom. He was also a traveler so though redundant to say, he has been to many places and spoken to many people. I do my best to do the same through reading books from various cultures. I always remember my roots and do my best to stay sceptic of what I read. This was a well worded video and I thank you for the reminder to reflect on my journey and what it has thought me so far.
As an Eclectic Pagan, I really appreciate the educated and thoughtful way that you communicated this information and it has given me a new-found respect for both my path and the path of Reconstructionism. Thank you for taking the time to make this and putting so much thought into it!
It was always the smell of campfire.. on a summer or winter night the feeling never changed.. I felt a calming feeling even alone I was at peace.
I was drawn to the outdoors almost to much so, I spend a lot of time there and there’s a feeling of home.. my past aside to feel at home broke me open and I knew I had the wanderer following me till I was ready to have the talk and accept my roots. The tree of life has always sheltered us from the harshest storms!
Hail to the gods!
So you're saying that Eclectics and Recons should stop arguing and team up against nazis and revisionist history. Gotcha.
Yeah, we need to stamp out European paganism once and for all. Europeans have never had any connection with the divine, unless we're talking about the Sami or Roma or Jews.
Excellent video Ocean!
As an eclectic, this was a very enlightening and informative video. And no, you're not an ANNOYING nerd. You're a very loved one!
Nothing wrong with being an annoying nerd. I'm a Cybersecurity Engineer, so I make a living being an annoying nerd lol.
I walk a fine, weird, hazy line in the middle between eclectic and reconstructionist -- values of both paths make me a wiser person, I think, personally. and your videos enrich my life and practice greatly. incredibly well spoken, Ocean. appreciate the channel so much.
I love when my UPG leads me to historical knowledge
I love how well spoken and open minded you are! You argued for both sides without invalidating anyone. ☺️
shared your video with a group i'm in dude it's really good
You make a lot of sense, I appreciate you.
Very well spoken and worded as always Ocean.
One of your greatest videos yet. Thanks, Ocean!
After 24 years I am in the same boat. I really needed to hear this now.
Earned my subscription. You were objective. And as someone who falls on eclectic side, it feels good to see some of the problems i have come across in my own practice laid out with possible solutions. Thank you sir.
Ok, so discovered your channel yesterday, and I have to say, I was pretty nervous heading in, as I have heard tell of the horrors of the AFA and others within this particular pagan community, which always struck me as incredibly sad that such a stain exists within the Neopagan community. However, I have been pleasantly surprised at the guts you have to simply state what you know to be wrong, and what you find personally enligtening and/or interesting, and to state it very eloquently and with tongue-in-cheek humour I might add!
All that out of the way, I wanted to draw your attention to eclecticism within ancient paganism itself; for example, the vast spread of the cults of Isis and Hecate, as well as the Interpretatio Romania of both Germanic and Brythonic gods and traditions, and vice versa, and in particular the fact that Alexander the Great declared himself the son of Amun and became Pharaoh of Egypt, which led to religious and stylistic synchrotisms such as statues of the god Zeus-Amun (look it up, you'll never unnsee Zeus with horns!) and other Greek and Egyptian artistic blends. I find all this incredibly fascinating, so wanted to share it, as an eclectic pagan myself
You don't actually believe in any of those deities though, do you? That would be really weird.
There are no Pagans in the 21st century. You would be sickened and horrified by their typical beliefs and practices, just as they would be horrified by yours.
This is such a mature, nuanced take on this subject which I really respect.
I’m currently reading Ronald Hutton’s Pagan Britain so the issue of the difficulties and complexities of reconstructing belief systems from archaeology as well as the issue that historians ascribe ideas, concepts and events to the past based on their own culture’s beliefs are at the forefront of my mind.
I cannot properly express how much I enjoy your talks when I'm working late at night in my woodshop. Thank you!
Mick here new to the channel, and I love the vibe. Keep them coming, skull hail odin
I have only gotten as far as the appropriation segment but wow, thank you so much for speaking these things out loud. Love this channel.
As a neurodivergent, disabled young person who doesn’t have a lot of easy access to necessarily friendly/unbiased pagan folk to learn from, I’ve found for a long time I have no idea what I am for sure yet, I’m still gradually learning. So I just say I’m the pagan equivalent of that one super busy Christian who still believes but hardly has time to go to church 😆 honestly when you mentioned the thought of running into the woods away from everyone else I couldn’t stop laughing
How did i miss this when it originally came out? Once again Ocean, you have distilled a multifaceted debate into words of wisdom. I was a recon for over a decade and eventually went the road of the eclectic. But your video has me rethinking a few things right now. That’s maybe the best complement I can pay you. Well done.
Thank you for this Ocean! Up until now I didn’t know I was an eclectic pagan I just thought I wasn’t “pagan enough” to fit in with others. I’m a huge history nerd and I love researching ancient faiths, but what drew me in was the experience of being approached by a god at a young age, and if I invest too deeply into the past, I start to forget what I currently have. For example, when I study Greek deities he is associated with, I start to “impose” characteristics and personality onto him which he has never presented to me. It can be helpful to research for me in moderation, but if I go too far I can’t connect back to that same feeling. That original entity. You’ve given me a sense of identity and validation in the pagan community now, so thank you!
Very well balanced and respectful without being pandering or overly simplistic in any way. I've been trying to put this explanation together in my own mind for a very, very long time. I'm so glad that you were able to describe the various Paths in such a solid way. Well done.
This is relatable because I grew up Christian around churches and my father was a pastor for a time. That put me on a path of becoming more eclectic because growing up with laws and traditions shoved into yourself isn't always helpful. It came to a point where I really needed to experience a relationship with divinity because studying textbooks and getting an A on tests wasn't gonna cut it for me. I needed more than just evidence. I needed to walk the walk and have the gods pave the road for me. 100% though, I cannot rely completely on just profound mystical experiences because it's no joke that there are really forces out there that want to hinder our journey and relationship with the heavens. A person really has to be hard on their mystical experiences and challenge them.
intelligent, interesting argument here, some good thinking and extremely rational.
Loved this video. You said everything that needs to be said on this topic. We should all stand together and learn from each other. That is the path to growth.
wow you’re a breath of fresh air, i’ve been waiting for this conversation
Your nerdiness helps a lot of people with the amount of information you have, especially with the cluster fluck of CERTAIN PEOPLE spreading false or dangerous info. Thanks again for another amazing video :)
I want to distagree with a few points here, but honestly I can't. So that's awkward. 😆
Sidenote: I actually have a black sun necklace lying around somewhere, because it looked like a cool symbol and I had no idea about it's history way back when I bought it. Erm. Whoops. This is why learning about history is important no matter if you're trying to copy the old ways or just take inspiration for personal reinterpretations.
"Do what you feel in your heart to be right- for you'll be criticized anyway."
That should be one of those life quotes that get passed around to each generation. 🤔
I've got to say that it is really inspiring to listen to you talk about the religions and to experience threw your knowledge your faith. Truly you are a remarkable person. I consider my self as a "seeker". I do not claim a faith per say... Although your explanation do make me wanna dive more in to this one. Keep up the good work.
I feel like there has to be a balance of both. My matron is Tiamat. I almost have to go by feeling because of how little is there for her...that isn't easy because of DnD and SMITE making it even harder to find info on her.
I'm in the Eclectic camp but I see the validity in historical research. I found you yesterday and I am loving the content so far my dude!
I have been questioning so much, and this was the first video I stumbled across in my search for like minded people. You are so helpful, and I thank you so very much.
Really informative video, thank you for making the distinctions and I learned something new about the term NeoPagan. I'm definitely a history nerd, more of a folklorist or secular/atheist loosely interested in pagan ritual and very much love your channel's content.
As someone who is beginning my journey, I appreciate you and your guidance with these videos. Also thank you about the heads up with WoO.
I don't think I can love this video enough. well spoken🍺
You are well spoken no doubt… almost in a “Frasier Crane” kind of way. Very enjoyable to listen to.
This is so well spoken. So glad to have found my tribe of nerds! Seriously though, it is SO AWESOME to hear you speak of oppression dynamics and cultural appropriation! Really appreciate your voice in a place I was worried I didn't fit anymore. Battling hate, bigotry and racism is tough work. Thank you for your intelligent message!
I'm so glad you posted this! There's so much misinformation and confusion about what even any of this is! Thank you! Thank you for being a level-headed logical person!!!!
Well said. I think the term I find most useful to me is revivalist because I find I land pretty much in the middle and walk a crooked path between them.
Hey, that's a great term! I find myself in a similar position, so thank you.
Thank you for this. As the 'Chieftain' of North West Heathens here in the UK this is something our members tend to struggle with quite often. Your words make a lot of sense sir and you have provided me with some much needed clarity this morning. Your best video yet I reckon!
I love the nuance here.
Well said, I have to say that what you said rang true in my practice. Keep up the good work
As an eclectic pagan i'm so glad you touched on the appropriation of other cultures! It really is a problem and many just excuse it on "having the freedom to experience everything else" even when it's inappropriate and disrespectful of others religions/cultures/practices...
Thank you for this. I am definitely eclectic, and I love that you teased out the doubt quality with electics, because I am always dealing with it. I love your brain.
This is so perfectly detailed, touching on many different concepts, and problematic actions & assumptions. You do a wonderful job shutting down a lot of ignorant arguments and really show any nitpicking between the two sides is just plain silly.
Ty for this video. Brought me clarity.
I am amazed by this channel keep up the good work
Thanks so much!
@@OceanKeltoi this channel has done a lot to help me find my way it's an inspiration
Honestly speaking I resonate with your closing thoughts. Eclectics and Recons sounds like they should work well together. Almost like they are two side of the same Polytheistic coin.
When I first started out after being introduced to Freyja during a Wiccan ritual I was more than likely an eclectic. I didn't know where to look and what sources to trust online so I focused on my own experiences and listened to those of others. But ever since finding your channel I've learned so much that I feel like my sense of Norse Paganism and understanding of it have doubled.
i really appreciate that you didn't denounce the eclectic side and actually listed some pros and cons to both sides and how we can learn from each other. surprisingly and depressingly refreshing
I used to be very eclectic and now I am leaning to a more recon approach. I struggled allot with being afraid I'd mess something up in my practice when I first went recon and it caused me to practice less often. Until I realized I'm still learning and filling in the gaps with what feels right is fine it is what everyone does anyway.
Yes very well spoken and absolutely well put!
Food for the thought, I love it, thank you
This was such a nuanced breakdown, thank you for your dedication to details!
I'm new to all of this, thank you for the video!
As an Eclectic witch, I thank you for your words. In my practice, the Norse pantheon is one that I honor. I hope there are more Heathens such as yourself to learn from.
As a disaffected Christian and prospective pagan, this has been the most helpful video on the topic.
Thank you for helping me connect to my history
I sit at an odd crossroads in my following of Hecate. I approached eclectically, but listening following Hecate's torch has often lead me to reconstruction.
Imagine working together, especially when we already have enough enemies. Like THOSE people. ❤❤❤
As a disabled Norse Pagan I have had to adapt how my I do my rituals, offering and other things.
We are all different pieces of the larger puzzle. We all play our roles for ourselves as well for each other. This made me think more on this and I greatly appreciate the good work.
I just started watching and you have given me something to think about, thank you, I no longer feel alone in what I do.
Keep up the good work you have NO idea how much your content has helped me in finding my feet in heathenry and paganism in general because HOO boy is there alot of problems from overly aggressive arguing and bias-filled information or lack there of its easy to get detoured and disheartened.. just thank you for the great content and a reasonable voice that is willing to have an open mind and encourage discussion and learning but not opposed to shunning the experiences people feel too.
just a big ol'thank you in general :)
Wow, this video made some really good points, and really made me think. Also the fact that I was nodding along and understanding everything you were saying reminds me how big of a fucking nerd I am lmfao
Dude...... this video blew my mind. I'm norse pagan, "reconstructionalist" and my wife is an eclectic pagan and holy shit, this video nailed it!
I like that you touched on the issues of appropriation of closed practice. I think this video was extremely well delivered and didn't try to look down on either paths, more just focus on the pros and cons. Honestly, that is something you rarely see in this area. As a recon myself, I have seen us get a bad rep in eclectic spaces and vice versa. I think it is far more important for us to have our own way while respecting the opposite side. We should both be open to constructive criticism as well, but the fighting between both camps is unnecessary, imo.
I think this is some great advice for approaching any kind of knowledge in community interaction... Thanks Ocean!
Finally! Great video! I'm working on a book about my own UPG and experiences and this is one of the subjects I touch upon
very insightful! thanks again!
Thanks I needed what you had to say.🙏
I just started watching your channel and I can't stop!
"What right do we have to strip the agency of the gods, in how they choose to interact with potential worshippers?"
That is an EXTREMELY powerful idea. Very well-stated.
Best to keep an open mind , fine dance of words....Thank you .
I see myself a bit as a eclectic pagan, but instead of worshipping Gods, I admire nature. I like nature religions in general, Norse, Celtic, Native American, Slavic
I really like the idea that interpretation of spiritual experiences is key.
Great Video Ocean, gonna share it out!
This video is a humanity service, thank you
Just want to thank you for your work, I'm a relatively new pagan who leans more eclectic although I love researching and incorporating as much recon as I can in my practice. And your channel has been an amazing help so far both for my knowledge and in my pursuit of faith.