Thanks for the update, Jon! I personally need to watch an episode a couple of times. On first watch my preconceptions get in the way. The best example of this is Rand vs Ishy over Falme. Since I first read this in 1994 I have pictured a scene that resembles the painting The Wild Hunt of Odin (riding across a stormy sky). Upon first watching, my disappointment got in the way of "getting" what they were doing. Subsequent viewings allowed me to more easily follow and appreciate the story they are telling.
I really enjoy discussing something I love with others that love it as well and why things resonate or don't based on our individual experiences. I love seeing aspects I don't particularly care for through the eyes of another that loves them. But folks that land like a fighter jet on a carrier just to spew hate wears me out. Many personal favorite moments I would like to see going forward. But one that will probably get lost in the shuffle of time constraints is Androl doing his thing in the last battle. I know, I know... with so much going on chances are less than slim. I kinda like the slog of Caemlyn but have skipped over it in re-reads many times. And I love Malden but the Faile and Perrin daily grind that's like groundhog day... Thanks for all you do Jon!
I can’t wait for season 3. I never read the books so I have nothing to compare to. My issue is how rushed the storyline has been and I know it may be due to the limited amount of episodes. I wish they were longer to allow for better development of the characters but I will take what I am given.
The thing I'm most looking forward to are things that can surprise and delight me. If I wanted the same story as the books, I would just reread the books (again). And when it comes to filming particular scenes from the books: my imagination is not limited by budgets or logic or the space-time continuum, so any version that's put on film is always going to be less cool than it was in my head. On the other hand, a new or remixed scene can be undeniably WoT-y, yet still make me go "Wow, what happend there?" and cause me to rewatch the scene 5 times and discover new things each time. I really liked most of Season 1 and 2, and for a large part that's because it felt like we got more WoT. I greatly prefer that approach over the "illustrated summary of books you already read multiple times" approach that others might want.
Respectfully, what any of us hate about the show is that it chose to emphasize spectacle over storytelling. Many of us don't want specific cool scenes - we want to feel that we are watching the same story adapted for the screen. WoT is an hero's journey where we get to watch farm boys, a wisdom, a village girl and a princess grew into heroes. Take Mat kicking the princes ass. This was part of the character development and was supposed to level up Mat's character for when we see him do other cool fighting shit. Now the show has shown him getting bad ass magic skills from the horn and running through a wall of Seanchan soldiers, what the point of the scene with the princess from a story telling point of view. We've seen Rand using the power to kill a fade, cut Moiraine's shield and kill a bunch of people. Now what's the point of him now training with the sword and duelling Couladin? He's level up pass that. We want to following these kids on the hero's journey and watch them come into their own and this requires storytelling with character development and not shiny objects spectacles.
It’s totally fine to not like everything in the show JUST LIKE the books. You don’t have to like The Slog. You don’t have to like the Sea Folk or the Andoran Succession. You don’t even have to like Gawy-- oh wait, forgot what channel I was commenting on 😂🤣 Critical and objective discussion is 100% welcome
I really enjoy the Malden plotline, it is too long yes , but still enjoy it because it shows how awesome and capable Faile is. But what I want/need to see is obviously Dumai‘s Wells and when Perrin forges Mah‘alleinir. Personally I think DW will be the make or break point, if they do 80% on screen of what is on page, this battle will get so much attention, I feel we are safe afterwards to make it to Tarmon Gai’don
I need to see a dramatic entrance from Rosamund Pike to Rand's council and her to recite the karaethon cycle. She's soooo good it would be amazing. ...oh and of course Roedran getting swatted :)
To be fair, there are some aspects of the books a bunch of us don't care for. The problem with these things, as I see it, is that those with pretty negative views seem to dig in and feel compelled to convince people to their side in a less than respectful way. Its weird. As if the aim is to manipulate your opinion rather than discuss flaws with the show.
I really hope your right about getting them closer to the books. My level of excitement is kinda low. we'll see, I'm hoping. BTW, thanks for your videos. I do enjoy them.
My biggest concerns for Season 3 involve a) Mat and b) Egwene. With respect to Mat, I hope is just in Tanchico. I do not want him to be in Tanchico with the Elayne and Nynaeve and then somehow (through a red frame doorway?) end up in Rhuidian. Mat can still accidentally form the Band of the Red Hand after events in Tanchico rather than following Rand out of the Waste. Egwene. There have been hints that Egwene, Nynaeve and Elyane go to the Tower so they can have their Accepted Test. If so, she has to then get to the Waste. I do not think that is plausible. I would rather she not go back to the Tower. Rather, her Dreaming Talents start happening at the beginning of Season 3 while in Falme. She starts to enter the World of Dreams and encounters an Aiel Dreamwalker (probably Amys). Amys tells Egwene to come to the Waste. When Rand announces he will go to the Waste, Egwene goes with the group. Long term scenes I want to see. 1) Dumai's Wells; 2) Egwene leading the Novices and Accepted against the Seanchan in the Tower while the Aes Sedai are in effective. And their realization that Egwene is leading an effective resistance. 3) Egwene standing up to Elaida at the dinner when she is dripping with blood; 4) Tuon seeing that Mat is more than a courtier. He is really a competent general; 5) I hope the last season is just the last Battle. The ups and the downs in the fight. I want to see Egwene's final sacrifice; all the challenges to Demandred including Lan's killing him; and Mat's final push up the Heights and the blowing of the Horn just as it looks like Mat's final gamble will fall short. Elayne is one of my favorite characters. Nevertheless, Jon, I agree. We csn do without the succession plotline. Have her assume the throne without a succession battle. As for the capture of Faile and her rescue, it should happen over the course of a half a season. Perhaps she gets captured at the end of season x. Perrin is able to rescue her by the end of Episode 4 the following season. Half a season is more than enough time.
I can hardly wait for season 4. The Wheel of Time is my favorite fantasy series, and I enjoy it on all of its platforms (book series, audio series, and the TV series). Regarding the TV series, I will be tuning in for every episode. I am hopeful The Wheel of Time will continue posting on X (as well As Blue Sky). Differing ideologies may keep some people from migrating to Blue Sky; so, having it on both platforms will hopefully give it the best opportunity to reach additional fans.
Totally agree - it's ok to like stuff or to not like stuff. Don't get personal and if you are being critical, it is always helpful to explain why or provide an example to help others understand. Similarly, when particularly liking stuff. For me, just because the show is different to the books isn't an automatic reason to hate it. 14 books were never going to fit into 8 seasons. Stuff was always going to be left out or combined to get through it all - and some of the fandom will always disagree with a change to something they liked And yes, some of the books were really slow so I hope for improvements. Personally, I'm not looking too far ahead. Yes, looking forward to Rhuidean as it is central to Rand's role and being able to call out Couladin, but really not all that interested in all the history stuff whilst in there (I skip that on re-reads). Matt has to get there too somehow to set himself up - necklace, prophecy, and hopefully his real weapon, and set up the army before aiding Elayne, Nynaeve, Thom and hopefully Julin in an Ebou Darr/Tanchico storyline - with the Kin and the Bowl. Hopefully we see Asmodean to teach Rand and looking forward to Perrin's growth with the Battle of Two Rivers. Nynaeve v Moghedien - and the rematches. Agree - the final battle needs to be a number of episodes given its length. ... And a decent Dumai Wells battle.
What a great hype vid! I’m hoping to see the forced bonding. I think it could be amazing (in a horrible way) to push Rand into his dark times and twist an intimacy that was so beautifully depicted S2E8. Also want Mat/Birgitte fun.
With regards things i really want to see, i want to see the black tower arc. If we get DW then they should aim for this. But to do this they need Logain to be healed and for that they need him with NyNaeve. The battle and the dreamspike was epic allbeit the build up took ages. It also shows the peril of being forcably turned. Give me that.
Thats really cool of you to say. Im kind of an outsider here. I read the books. Loved them very personally. Love the show very much too. Im sorry if i ever posted anything annoying or offensive. You guys are real and good people fans.I still think that dog out acted Perrin.
I definitely agree, the last battle has to be at least 4 episodes, if not more. SPOILERS AHEAD lol I want to see more of Nynaeve and her block, and then the moment she finally works through it. As well as all the iconic Matt moments, such as when he gets all the memories of his past lives and gets his neck scar. As well as more of Rand lol. Those are my three favorite characters, so I just want to see more of them in general. Also I am very excited to see Tuon, and more of Aviendha. I am so excited for season 3! Thanks for all the info on s3.
I also agree on the fact that both sides of the fandom can be a bit toxic. I love the show but do have a few complaints, for example, Min feels nothing like Min at all. I felt like they totally changed her. Everyone else at least feels similar but idk, for some reason's Min's character feels very off to me. So, I guess another thing I am hoping for is to improve her chaarcter a bit in s3.
I think my only potential issue with Mat going to Tanchico instead of Rhuidean is how they work in his Lord of Battles arc without it seeming to come out of nowhere
I think your take on the adaptation and the fandom's reaction to it is great. Elitists on both sides can definitely cause people in the middle who just want to watch and enjoy a show to shy away. Regarding the spoiler section of your video, without adding my own spoilers, I'll just say I'm super excited for Mat's arc and how that plays out much later
I only started reading the books because of the series, so I'm approaching it from the norm. I'm concerned the 8 hours just isn't enough time to introduce Faile, developing their relationships enough for her to follow Perrin to 2 Rivers! The fight for the town continued for several chapters in the book. All that has to be condensed into 90 minutes. Perhaps at best 2 hours out of the 8 allowed for the season? Add Tanchico Rhuidan, the Waste, Mat facing off with the 2 Andoran men, and the coup at the White Tower. I just can't see 8 hours covering so much material! My wish list for a must-see does include the cleansing. It is super important for all the male users. I'd love to see Nynaeve remove the 'stilling' from Logain and Moraine. Again important for Logain 's future position with the Ashermen. Don't think we need the 'road trips' of Elayne and Nynaeve, nor Mat, Tuon and the rescued Aes Sedai. But Mat & Tuon do need to meet to establish their future together. Nynaeve's breakthrough of her block, and subsequent marriage to Lan will be good to see. Then at the Final Battle, Lan's fight. That HAS TO BE INCLUDED. The rest of my list corresponds to yours. Only time will tell.
Before the series finale I’d love to see a “recap episode” but strictly from the perspective of Tam. He is the real hero. He is what Rand needed to defeat the Dark One. The Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills, but Tam made a choice and that choice would be a great way to recap the whole series in one episode.
This is far and away my favorite fantasy series, and I've read A LOT of them. But there were things I didn't like...I could do without the menagerie stuff in it's entirety. I never liked the Elaine/Tom weirdness. Yeah, the whole Faile kidnapping thing went much too long. There are other things. What I'm saying is that you don't need to like everything in the series to enjoy the series. Same with the show. As to what I need to see...season 3 is going to show me several things that you already mentioned. I think the dreamers gotta dream. Where is Tuon?????? Egwene and the rebels...and the Band of the Red Hand. I'm sure I'm forgetting stuff. Heck, even after all the re-reads I find new things every time I pick it back up. I share your excitement!
This is my thought. Season 2 was ALREADY WRITTEN before season 1 aired. Audience feedback was not taken into account (mostly). For season 3, the writers had our feedback to work with. Season 3 could be seen as a reset of sorts. We should wipe our expectations.
This seems like wishful thinking. Pretty sure the show runner and writers were openly saying the show was intentionally taking a different direction from the books. “Another turning of the wheel”.
@@kathryncainmadsen5850 They had to shuffle storylines around because of Sofie Okonedo (Siuan)'s schedule as well. Rand was supposed to meet her early on in the season rather than towards the end.
@@kathryncainmadsen5850 there was a time skip between season 1 and 2. Where mats story left off in season 1 is irrelevant to s2. It’s just bad storytelling. Bad writing. Took something terrible and made it worse. Mats entire story for season 2 is bad. And not just bad because it’s a departure from his book story but also because it doesn’t come anywhere near capturing the soul of the character from the books.
I guess full books spoilers here as it's up to "Veins of Gold" chapter. . . . . . Obviously it will be all the cool scenes like the Cleansing as you mention, Dumai´s Wells and all the other cool battle scenes. I'm a sucker for a cool magic battle that makes decent military sense. For me I need the Veins of Gold to really hit home. I want Rand so have to experience some really tough stuff to really drive home that he has pretty much given up on life. He is in a ticking delf-deletion mode up until Veins of Gold. He has nothing to live for, he has sen some bad stuff and he knows he must die for the world to live. So for me there are some events that really comes to mind. 1: The little girl during Tear. It's been a while since I read it, but I still remember how Rand cradles that little girld. I don't remember if she dies because he does something (does he blast a wall to try to block a Forsaken or Black Ajah?) and the girl dies from it. It would make sense to mirror back to the girl he and Mat see dead during S1. But Rand uses the One Power to try to reanimate her and bring her back to life. "What's the point of being the Dragon if I cannot save the innocent?" or whatever it is he says. 2: Obviously "The box" and how they treat him, and how that makes him turn against the Aes Sedai. 3: Sitting down with Fedwin Morr after he succumbed fully to Madness (in PoD chp29), and see Rand calmly slip poison into his wine to end his suffering. I guess a Fallout-spoiler ahead but the segment where the Ghoul meets Roger, the Ghoul talks about all the good parts of apple pie before shooting him. We didn't know Roger but we all understood that it was a mercy-killing, and we all saw it as what The Ghoul would become. Make the viewers a bit more attached to Fedwin Morr and I think having Rand put him down could really strike home, as well as pointing to Rand trying to be Steel and shed all human emotions in order to do what must be done. 4: The male A'dam and Moghedien(?) using it against him to hurt Min. Obviously losing Moiraine as a mentor, seeing the Maidens that pledged to him die (his list of women might be scrapped, but he still need to be hurt by it) and a bunch of other scenes as well. I really think this all makes sense from RJ's Point of View. Being in Vietnam I think RJ has to see a lot of innocent civilians die. I can guess that he at some point saw dead childred and he himself wondered if it was really liberation if it ment the death of innocent kids. Same with fellow soldiers who became severely shellshocked which is my personal headcannon for "Madness". About having to not feel human emotions when face to face with an enemy combatant because you don't really want to shoot them but it's your life or theirs, or because it's your orders to wipe out the enemy. For Veins of Gold to make sense, we really must see Rand's descent into Darth Rand. Because only then will that chapter be the revelation and release of emotion that I think we all felt when reading it.
I think an issue achieving point 1 is the outcome of S1e8. If they say you can't heal death with the one power but the viewer has already seen that with Eg and Nyn outside Sheinar then it sends a missed signal. I've seen chat that Nyn wasn't fully dead, but it's easy to say that when you have knowledge. The other women were burned out and unsavable but you never saw that as Egwene didn't try. All you saw was her cure Nyn and it sold the image that you could be resurrected. It was an impactful part of the book and I loved the whole tear sequence, it's a shame we will unlikely see it. :(
That is an optimistic take on the show. My main gripe about is the sidelining of Rand, Mat, and Perrin. I just don’t think these are going to change based on comments by the showrunner and others involved in the show.
I don’t know what you are talking about. Did you not see Rand with Lanfear and Moiraine and LOGAIN and Siuan? He had a LOT of screen time- not sidelined at all. Perrin and the White Cloaks and Avi and with the horn and chasing Fain…. Yes, Mat (who spent a lot of this time unconscious in those books) had a hard time because he was meant to go with them to Fal Dara and Barney quit so they had to change it.
@@kathryncainmadsen5850he had a lot of screentime but no real impact on the show. Nothing came of his time with Logain. He was rescued from Lanfear, transported to where he needed to be for the end of the DR, carried out an Indiana Jones moment that was unearned, no swordplay at all, captured by the seanchan and saved by his pals. The dragon concoction by Moiraine can't even categorically be pinned to him. There's a case that it could easily be Egwene. They are severely undercooking Rand.
I hope Rand gets his powers kicked up a notch. As a book reader that loves the show I can't wait for season 3. The only thing I am dreading is the fact that Faile is the worst character in the book to me. I am just hoping they fix her lol.
Hey Jon, love the idea to put up a graphic during spoiler discussions. BUT the one you used in this is IMO too small/not bold enough to see against your wall decorations. And/or, if you can change the location to the lower left corner it would be impossible to miss. 😉
I don’t think any season will bring back the people who wanted an abbreviated scene by scene copy of the books. That’s not how adaptations work if they are good, so they will never be happy. I saw a LOT that I recognized. I’d be bored if it was straight out of the book. I already know that story. I like the fact that we see what was offstage in the books and new stuff. People who want abbreviated books will never like it.
I genuinely hope you are right. I'm on the fence. There's a lot I liked but more I didn't. Reel in some of these events you described done well and I will be happier. Non-negotiable, they need to promote the three boys. Nynaeve and Egwene need to take a back seat in this season.
I'd like a "Readers Digest" "Cliff's Notes" summary of the important parts of the story. There are several storylines that can be cut down considerably yet still be discussed such as Faiel kidnapping. Some parts shouldn't be cut down though such as the large conference getting the nations to cooperate.
Thanks for the first part of your video. The non-negotiable positivity towards the show, put me off from the fandom a bit. Especially as some of the main content creators in the fandom, are pretty openly critical towards (elements) of the show. Matt Hatch, Talk Aran Rhiod, you, Unraveling the Pattern... None are only positive.
This series had always been considered to be unadaptable because of how long it is, how many characters there are, etc. Rafe has taken on a herculean task trying to condense the books into a watchable series. Every adaptation has to combine book characters and change stories, and this one will need more than most. One book spends 500 of its 600 pages describing the various factions' reaction to the events at the end of the previous book. TV could accomplish that in 15 minutes of screen time, and no one in their right mind would try to pitch that without changes. I like to advise my friends who have read the books to watch with an eye for the outcomes. As long as they end up where they need to be, I'm ok with some deviation from the path.
I'd agree with you if he didn't add his own story into it. You can't argue that he had to condense material and merge characters when he wastes 80% of the series on his own story.
Another great video. I just don’t see how they can wrap this up in 8 seasons and make it… good. Sure, there will be some great acting and special effects, but there’s a lot that has to happen to wrap up.
it's okay to disagree very sad that you felt that way. I think it comes from a room of passion and not hate but it's not really a defence. It's great of you to speak up appreciate that Just know that we all appreciate what you do
One thing I am personally interested in is Season 1 Episode 6 Suian's gown! I would love the statistics such as material, weight, how it is put on, etc.
I totally agreed with you regarding the season finales. Is the problem too few episodes? Probably but the other problem is the writing. Rafe has deviated too far from the source material IMO. The casting and acting are fantastic. If Rafe would remain 80% true to the books in the adaptation, and stop developing new story lines that don't serve the endgame, we might all be happier. Cutting things is expected, but wasting time on new stories and switching main characters to other paths is disappointing.
I love the idea of the Red Hand for Spoilers, but it is really tough to see on your background. Can you put that image on a solid circle or square of color? I had to really search for it even you were expressly talking about it.
Hindersnap is one that I definitely could scrap. No Faile kidnapping ok cool. No Succession , okay. Cleansing the source, a must have. Everything can't be kept or kept the same. I'm excited for the show.
I do not get it. Mat fighting Galad and Trakand was a fun scene. It was something to be between important scenes. But i do not think it critical to the entire story. (Like for example Dumai's Wells). I do not think the show would suffer if they never included this fight scene.
But it elevates Mat and brings him out of the shadow. Removing it would reduce his journey and a mechanism for the fan base to start routing for him. It's essential.
I want to address the issue of people being toxic and having toxic opinions. Both sides of the spectrum are going to destroy this show. On one end you have book absolutists. They basically won't give the show a fair chance to stand on it's own and any changes made they are adamantly against and they are completely unreasonable. That's fine if they keep it to themselves but when they scour UA-cam and social media and intentionally sink audience scores that creates a huge problem. Why is that a problem? It's a problem because this is likely the only adaptation we are going to get for the WoT in our lifetimes and even though it's not going to be exactly like the books some of us still want to enjoy it and don't want that chance sabotaged. They are unwilling to look at the fact that those books are unadaptable verbatim. There is not the time or the budget. To get the budget to adapt them like that the fan base and viewership would have to rival the Superbowl with every single episode and it would have to have advertisements like the Superbowl to pay for it. That's just not going to happen folks. It's completely unreasonable to expect an adaptation like that. That's one extreme. If that's not you, and don't like the show but you are more in the middle ground, that statement wasn't for you so don't have a panic attack and get all defensive. The other extreme of the spectrum are the people who think the show is perfect and can do no wrong and think that any sort of criticism of the show because it's not matching the books isn't valid and shouldn't be listened to. This is equally as toxic. Why? Because this alienates people who are watching the show, giving it a good faith effort to watch in and like it, but still have criticism with the creative liberties the show creators are making to the story as compared to the books. Like I said. This is likely the only adaptation we are going to get, and we can't blow it. If we don't have the viewership to justify the cost of making the show, Amazon will cancel the show. They are in the business of making money. If they don't make money, they stop making the show, period. All that being said. I encourage people to stick with the show, give constructive criticism where it's valid and make it reasonable. I think the best way to do that is to use the platforms available to say what you hope they include in the show, things you really don't want cut, such as the dual between Mat and the two princes of Andor that was talked about. Make it clear the things you think are vital to the story with the hope that they keep them. I'll offer one up right now. Amazon, don't kill characters before they are supposed to die. Sometimes it works in my opinion, sometimes it seems like a waste. For example, killing Uno while unpopular as he's a fan favorite worked in my opinion. It gave the necessary shock value to show people how bad the Seanchan are, and making him Gaidal Cain worked in my opinion. Uno was never central to the plot, he was a character that popped up a lot and was entertaining, and as a Hero of the Horn he can still do that. That move saves them on budget for actors too. Uno did a lot of traveling with characters central to the plot without being central himself and it's one less actor to pay in a traveling ensemble. One death that didn't work for me was Agelmar Jagad. It came across as way too soon, totally unnecessary, and he doesn't pop up enough to worry about budget that much. Also, the four Great Captains theme was ruined by that. I think that plot was central to the last battle but that just my opinion and I know others will or won't agree. The last thing I will say is that look at the show from this context. Would you enjoy the show if you had never read the books? Be honest, if that answer is yes then just enjoy it on it's own and stop comparing the two. I've read the books through three times and while I do have criticisms, I am still enjoying the show. So for everyone to say that you can't separate the two because you have read the books, that is 100% on you and how you are choosing to feel about it. It's a choice you are making.
🥳 I'm looking forward to Mat fight the half-brothers. I'm still annoyed that Mat won't be with Rand and doing the door frame thing. I'm hoping the door will still be a thing. I do hope they don't have 3 seasons of the Faile rescue... they had better cut that plot line shorter. I agree with all your wish list. the cleansing has to happen...
I love to discuss the show with those who hate it when it’s actual critiques not attacks . So many people are really mean . But a good debate is so much fun!
@ he is my favorite character and even if our deer host doesn’t want to see dark Rand I do want to see it just in a condensed version. Which by mere time alone they would necessarily have to shorten some things . I want to see him come out of the darkness to see the light and right of it!
I think they need to sort out the Rand story line as he is the core of the books and he is mainly sidelined. If not I think fans of the book will struggle to engage. His journey is important for the female characters (who have been the focus of the show) to bounce off for their growth. It’s my biggest gripe… For me the books are from a gender perspective is that both sexes are flawed and bias but best when working together, that is lost so far…
My biggest thing and this goes with pop culture in general, nothing gets to be ok anymore. It’s either incredible or bad. I love the show but it has flaws and is not great on every level technically. But terrible? Not really imo. The thing that hamstrung this series from the beginning was the episode count. Almost all the criticism I see about the show would be solved if this show was being done in the brief area of 12-16 episode seasons.
Here’s my take. If I had never read the books, I would love the show. I feel the same way about the Eragon Movie, and the Percy Jackson Movies. The problem is, the named shows change too much of the core plots of the books. I understand all the reasons why movies MUST change things. Because you can’t hear inner monologue, and time constraints, ect. But you have to keep the core of the show. Harry Potter for example. Yes there was changes, but the plot is intact. You recognize the books in what you watch in the show. The Lord Of the Rings is another good example. The Wheel of Time is beloved by readers, and we want to recognize the books in the shows. That being said I’m still gonna watch season 3 lol. The actors were great and I think season 2 was much better written than 1, and I’m hoping the 3rd season is even better.
The thing I dislike the most about the show is the time between season. I get it...lots of post production stuff to do, but 2 years between 8 episode seasons? That and I hate the new Aes Sedai rings. ;) Overall, I enjoy the show (5/10), but I think I'd like it more if I hadn't read the books before.
Overall the show is doing a pretty good job of telling the story. It could be worse, the abomination known as Rings of Power which completely butchers the lore! I'm so excited for season 3 to start!!
I just hope they don't mess up what I think s3 finale will be bc it's one of my favorite arcs in the books but to get there they are going to have to really hoof it or adapt/cut a bit out to get there.
I will watch season 3 but I really just can’t imagine a world where Mat and Rand can be saved at this point. There are several other characters whose arc I feel have already been destroyed but season 2 last episode was a spit in the face to all book fans in my opinion.
First, I want to say I really appreciate your attempt to be balanced and honest. I know you are your own person and you live the series (though your Gawyn love is still honestly a huge mystery to me ;-) ) Like you I am a longtime fan. I was 19 when I picked up ther series in 93. Fires of Heaven had just come out and a friend forced me to get it. Epic fantasy wasnt my jam- i was mostly hard sci fi as well as an Orson Scott Card fanboy then- but the Wheel of Time absolutely captured me. Aside from the books, i bought the crappy abridged Mark Rolston read audiobooks, before later finding the Kramer/Reading audios. And of course i reread them multiple.times. like you, i waited for each book. I was on the newsgroups and on scifi's site, before going to dragonmount. I loved the series,.as you do and wanted the tv series to do it justice. I know stories are not the words or even events. They are the characters and journey. Mediums are differrent. When the show started i was cautiously optomistic. A few cringe moments- mischaracterizations or one sided focus- but i chalked it up to wobbley first legs and unreliable narrarator. Well, perrin having a wife who he killed is just all sorts of stupid and beyond the pale....but i gritted my teeth. The mystery box of who the dragon was really hamstrung the 1st season. There was good stuff, but the focus was blurry . Adding a great but completely unnecessary story about AS and warders only wasted more time. 1.8 was terrible. Not a thing redeemable about it. But the lead up, including an unnecessary love triangle only worsened it. Season 2 start well. Got even better. I LOVED their depiction of the dark characters- RJ sucked at showing more than shallow motivations for those who.joined the dark, aside for Ingtar. Liandrin, Ishamael and Lanfear stole it. Unfortunately, we got garbage Lan,Moiraine shit. And while Rand started off really well, he very quicklu once again became a plot device, to be moved where needed, with no discernable agency or consistant motivation. Egwene and Rena saved the back half. Nearly perfectly done. And elayne and nymaeve were set up perfectly. And then 2.8 happened. Shit on a stove, the smell that permeates a room and inbues everything around it. What is the common denominator here? What keeps fucking it up, when so much good writing, acting and direction sets up such great stuff? A showrunner who is so fucking lazy and decides he wants his moment of.awesome without earning it. Make no mistake. RAFE JUDKINS is what keeps pulling down the brilliant cast, directing and writing. So now s3 is coming. Am i excited? Not even a little bit. Am i hopeful? Uh, is Rafe still the showrunner? Then, no. Not at all. Whats the sayjng? Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Ill probably watch out of morbid curiosity. But i have only watched the series once, period. And that was at airtime. I couldnt give a shit to rewatch, not even to critique. Maybe ill be proved wrong. I love great shows. But in thai day of things like Silo and Severence and Foundation and Penguin and Shogun, to think that this hot garbage that comes garbed in the name of this series that was my life for 20 years is gonna have any loyalty or recommendation or even fucking expectations from me is ridiculous. I know what good, even brilliant tv is. Im not gonna artificially inflate this show when the boys and genv are out there. Subsidize a showrunner who has a track record of shitting over the back half? A guy who decides he wants to do something becuase he wants his unearned moments of awesome? Why would i do that? Rafe doesnt get a participation trophy from me. At the end of the day, its the story that matters- the whole thing, not parts. Wot aint it. And Rafe Judkins is to blame. Sanderson had made his feelings clear. And the deafening silence from Team Jordan (legally bound no doubt) says all there is to say. Maybe things will be better. But we're 1/4 though the whole story and frankly, it has been a shit show. I wouldnt hope the next 3/4 would suddenly taste better. I wish RJs legacy had gotten a showrunner who respected the source and how to tell a story properly. Hell, Cross and Reacher are a billion times better. Rj deserved better. Not sure how it can be saved at this point.
One other thing to comment on as i watch your video. Having certain scenes or stories from the books is great. Awesome. Wonderful. But will they stick the landing. Will they respect the story. Or will Rafe write the last episode and fumble any good stuff that has been shown. That is the problem. I have NO REASON to think that Rafe wont be able to keep from insterting himself, like Puffy in the music video, into the story to put his stamp or spin on it. That is the problem. That is what makes me jaded and not give a shit. Good stories in the middle dont negate a terrible.wrap up. And i dont trust Rafe. Not even a little bit.
This is excellent. You are 100% spot on and reflects a significant portion of the fanbase which should not be overlooked or chastised. This was the prime opportunity to relate a story as close to the books as humanly possible with the understanding that some of the "padding" needed to go. What we actually got was a lead who removed the fat, muscle and bones leaving behind only the skin. By doing so he injected his own story dressed in the names and clothing of the characters we have fallen in love with. Yes there are snippets of the story in There; the Trollocs attack on rands hut (80%), Shador Logoth (80%), Rand and mat at a farm (10%), the eye (5%), Shienar (10%), Egwene and Rena (80%). The rest is made up bullsh*T. What a waste of an opportunity. The two season finales have been either criminal in design and execution or completely missed the mark. I understand "insiders" promoting optimism for S3 but how much has been offered but then woefully under achieved? This sits solely with Rafe and anyone pretending to be book experts attached to the show. They are riding by their hubris and need to justify decisions. I don't get the defense saying they made changes for the non book reader. If they told the story and told it well, this would have erupted and been a mega success on par with GOT. Instead this will be forgotten in less time than it has taken to get to season 3. I was desperate for this show, I yearned to see it done justice. And it hasn't. I'm not bothered about the casting as in large it's been fabulous. The poor quality of writing, and insertion of Rafe's wet dreams (e.g. the Moiraine and Suian relationship) stinks. Like you season 3 will get my attention when it comes but the drive to increase its "market" presence, doesn't sit with me and I won't manipulate my subscriptions or viewing habit to support this show in it's current direction of travel. Time will tell...
@@ianohlanderthe series has come out in the wrong time period. This needed to be shelved until the phase is social grandstanding and identity politics and quotas was behind us. The "rules" set by the bubble that is Hollywood has destroyed great story telling.
@@LeeTurnock-zy2dg the sad part is so many people are doing fantastic work on the show. The actors are wonderful. Overall, i have no issue with the casting aside from a few minor quibbles. The acting itself is good. The music, the sets, the effects (s2 anyway and parts of 1) are great. And im being completely honest that there has been some absolutely wonderful writing. 2.6 with Egwene and Rena was beautiful and painful. Liandrin has stolen the show with her story. Nynaeve's testing. And Lanfear and Ishamaal....i mean what can you say. Thing is, i dont mind a different turning of the wheel. I enjoy guessing and being unsure of things. Being predictable isnt enjoyable. Yes, there are moments i need to see. And as long as they can get there in an organic way, i am happy. Good writing is good writing. The problem is when Rafe decides hes a writer and comes along and takes the brilliance of everyone and shits on it to create a climax out of thin air. When he decides he wants a water cooler moment that everyone is gonna talk about, but has no fucking idea how to do it with what has come before. Even if you hadnt read the books, s2's ending was just garbage and all over the place. Non book readers cant know what is going on. Book readers cant be sure that what is happening is consistant with the book world. The story contradicts itself, over and then underpowering (rand being shielded and weak multiple times and then strong- theres no 2 rivers core of iron that was at Rands center. He spent the majority of the show on his knees or begging for help; egwene and ishy), creating melodramatic character moments that are never mentioned again (perrin egwene rand triangle), blow ups that are drawn out and artificial and at the end of the day, have done nothing to move the story along (lan and moiraine in s2), taking brilliant setups (nynaeve and elayne getting ready to save Egwene then completely nerfing them for the ending).... This is 90s and early 2000s level episodic tv, where momentary moments and each episode ratings are the goal, rather than the longform that streaming has brought. Im talking smallville, lost, 25, alias, agents of shield style shows. Make no mistake, i loved some of those, even with those issues. Or rather DESPITE those issues. But in this day of streaming, of entire seasosn filmed in one go as a long form movie, this is unacceptable. Esp when it comes from a belived property. Wanna see what an adaptation looks like? Shogun, Fallout, The Boys, The Last of Us, Foundation, Silo. Being faithful to every scene is not necessary. Merging characters or shifting stories is fine. Making it new and wonderful is good. But you better tell a good story. A complete story. Veritasium had a recent video where he discussed studies and experiments that show that we judge an entire experience based on the final part. Thats how the mknd works. Rafe created a great team. And then should have been sent off to be the studio garbage man. Not the guy responsible for the finals that would tie up the entire season experience. In a world with Fallout or Severence out there, amazon/sony has no excuse for this. None. As long as rafe is involved in the ending, i wont be artifically inflating numbers or rewatching. If s3's ending isnt Rafe's , then maybe, just maybe there is hope. But im not holding my breath. There are far better shows i can watch. Apple tv is consistantly good. And amazons non wot stuff has been fantastic.
@@ianohlandermy issue with the writing stems from a) their apparent lack of understanding of the material and character motivations and b) unearned and last minute step changes to plot movement. As an example; give Rand a storyline of infiltrating the asylum to get to Logain and a trial to retrieve wine for it to have no pay off. Are they seriously telling me that Logains advise was "grab the power" and then "not too much". They have mucked up the opportunity to clearly separate the power systems and why the male half is so dangerous. This comes from. Too much change and not having a clear plan as to how to get from A to B. This has come as a result of the dragon mystery box, and a need to insert different story beats. I get people are happy with changes as it's not the books and gives them something new, but I don't honestly understand why we wouldn't want to see the story honoured and kept as aligned to the source material as possible on its first pass. It's what we've been waiting for. Another example of where they dropped the ball was the Egwene and Rena scenes. I'm with you, the breaking of Egwene was excellent and really sold the darkness of the Seanchan. They had Elayne and Nynaeve set up to assist with the rescue and even captured a Suldam, they even had Mat close by as per the books. What we got was a gear change on Egwene and the result that she killed Renna. How?!?!, what purpose does that serve?!?! What message does that send the Seanchan?!? It's GOT S8F all over it again. There's too many examples where by stepping off source they snowballed into a world of pain, and whilst casual viewers are watching I would be gobsmacked if they are fully immersed in what is happening. This is on the Show Runner, but I also suspect their was external pressures to make certain plot points stick (e.g. the Moiraine and Suian). If the story was good enough to make them they should have honoured the material and stuck to the lane. What they saw was a large popular book series with a strong fanbase and tried to milk us.
I cannot imagine someone watching season 3 if they disliked most of the aspects of both season 1 and 2. Jon, what makes you think that if someone strongly disliked the first 2 seasons, they would watch season 3. I could understand if someone was luke warm on the first 2 seasons they might watch season 3. I am not talking about people who will watch for no other reason so they can post negative things about the show. It is likely there will be enough reasons for someone who generally likes it but has gripes with certain parts. I am sure there will be things about the season I do not like. I wish it would be perfect TV. But that is unlikely given the past seasons. And I enjoyed seasons 1 and 2
I fear that we may only get 2 more seasons if season 3 goes well. That would require a lot of cutting but they could still tell a story that gets them to the last battle.
The Proclamation to the world of The Dragon Reborn was a moment to be seen, and it fell pretty flatt on screen. If they are combining books 3 & 4, we should see Rand's true power (and more with the sa'angreal) . If the plan is a road to Lord of Chaos, then over season 3 and 4, he must live with that Power, so he can be consumed by it. Change is expected, some of it applauded (Lanfear is excellent in the show), but The Wheel of Time is the story of The Dragon and his arc has been very weak so far.
I have a very hard time imagining the Mat vs Gawyn/Galad scene happening in season 3. Just based on where characters are and where they seem likely to be in upcoming storylines, I don't understand how those three would end up in the same place at the same time.
Obvs gateways and skimming will help justify this but after the first couple of times it'll be separated into Traveling (an effects shot for wielders of the One Power) and fast travel (a plot expedient that handwaves anyone to be in any location). The only time anyone will use the Ways after that is if there's a plot element they have to go in there to get.
The RandLews amalgamation would be great... I wish they could have done the Bl-Twr./Dumai's Wells (that would have been the highlite of the entire series)... I would however NEED to see the Cleansing of the "Taint" & DragonMount.....There is sooooo much material....smh.....
What is hateful? I hate Suiraine not because I hate lesbians but because it's not what RJ wrote. I hate Alana polyamory because it's smut and I hate smut (as did the High Episcopalian RJ). I hate the race bending ( I'm a middle aged black man btw) because it breaks my head cannon. Will these views be welcome in you BlySky group hug?
I love S1 and generally liked S2. Rafe and team have done a spectacular job adapting my favorite book series and the actors have blown me away with their performances, including what I truly didn’t expect to like, like Padan Fain and Liandrin. I have as much of a problem with book fans as I do with show fans who are overly critical for the artist’s creation (Jordan, Sanderson, and Rafe). PS - There is no slog. PPS - Mat is the best.
You’re never going to be able to please everyone. Just like what you like. Overall I don’t enjoy what they’ve done to Robert Jordan’s story in the series but I still find parts of it that I do like just because it’s my favorite book series ever. That said, I don’t begrudge anyone, who loves every element of it. I continue to hope for good things for the next season.
I'm so tired of hearing the "it's like a different turning of the Wheel" excuse. It's a nice way of saying they changed to much stuff from the main story. They added in modern new age agenda driven B.S. A very beautiful story got drug through the mud. Hopefully they can pull it out, wash it off, and actually make something close to cannon. Doesn't have to be exact. Just not completely different. That's my opinion, and the same as many others. It's sad but true
I dont see how this adaption of my #1 fav book series can be saved at this point. I have Prime for toher reasons continuously so I will watch season 3 but I have really given up on seeing a books series and this is truly an alternate reality or another, mirrored, turn of the wheel.
Dude, I totally respect you more for being honest. It's ok to criticize Sony and/or Amazon. The finale of season 2 really shat the bed for anyone who read the books.
Thanks for the update, Jon! I personally need to watch an episode a couple of times. On first watch my preconceptions get in the way. The best example of this is Rand vs Ishy over Falme. Since I first read this in 1994 I have pictured a scene that resembles the painting The Wild Hunt of Odin (riding across a stormy sky). Upon first watching, my disappointment got in the way of "getting" what they were doing. Subsequent viewings allowed me to more easily follow and appreciate the story they are telling.
I really enjoy discussing something I love with others that love it as well and why things resonate or don't based on our individual experiences. I love seeing aspects I don't particularly care for through the eyes of another that loves them. But folks that land like a fighter jet on a carrier just to spew hate wears me out.
Many personal favorite moments I would like to see going forward. But one that will probably get lost in the shuffle of time constraints is Androl doing his thing in the last battle. I know, I know... with so much going on chances are less than slim.
I kinda like the slog of Caemlyn but have skipped over it in re-reads many times. And I love Malden but the Faile and Perrin daily grind that's like groundhog day...
Thanks for all you do Jon!
I can’t wait for season 3. I never read the books so I have nothing to compare to. My issue is how rushed the storyline has been and I know it may be due to the limited amount of episodes. I wish they were longer to allow for better development of the characters but I will take what I am given.
I don’t care what anyone says! I Like Faile!
Shes my 2nd fav character!!!
@@WoTUpjudgment officially questioned. 😂
The thing I'm most looking forward to are things that can surprise and delight me. If I wanted the same story as the books, I would just reread the books (again). And when it comes to filming particular scenes from the books: my imagination is not limited by budgets or logic or the space-time continuum, so any version that's put on film is always going to be less cool than it was in my head.
On the other hand, a new or remixed scene can be undeniably WoT-y, yet still make me go "Wow, what happend there?" and cause me to rewatch the scene 5 times and discover new things each time. I really liked most of Season 1 and 2, and for a large part that's because it felt like we got more WoT. I greatly prefer that approach over the "illustrated summary of books you already read multiple times" approach that others might want.
Respectfully, what any of us hate about the show is that it chose to emphasize spectacle over storytelling. Many of us don't want specific cool scenes - we want to feel that we are watching the same story adapted for the screen. WoT is an hero's journey where we get to watch farm boys, a wisdom, a village girl and a princess grew into heroes. Take Mat kicking the princes ass. This was part of the character development and was supposed to level up Mat's character for when we see him do other cool fighting shit. Now the show has shown him getting bad ass magic skills from the horn and running through a wall of Seanchan soldiers, what the point of the scene with the princess from a story telling point of view. We've seen Rand using the power to kill a fade, cut Moiraine's shield and kill a bunch of people. Now what's the point of him now training with the sword and duelling Couladin? He's level up pass that. We want to following these kids on the hero's journey and watch them come into their own and this requires storytelling with character development and not shiny objects spectacles.
It’s totally fine to not like everything in the show JUST LIKE the books. You don’t have to like The Slog. You don’t have to like the Sea Folk or the Andoran Succession. You don’t even have to like Gawy-- oh wait, forgot what channel I was commenting on 😂🤣
Critical and objective discussion is 100% welcome
I cannot wait for season 3!! I think it’s going to be so epic!!
What the TV show needs is an extra 2-4 episodes per season. The amount of screen time spent on the Moraine/Lan/Alanna travels was criminal.
they do not need any more episodes... they have too much off book crap in it as is..
And a yearly release schedule
That’s every show in 2024
No they don't. They need good streamline writing.
I view the show as another turn of the Wheel. I'm fine with the changes.
When I framed it as taking place in a mirror world I enjoyed the show much more. Except episode 1:8.
Truth becomes legend...
Season 2 was AWESOME!!
Olver; Matt v Couladin; Morraine v Lanfear; Bargaining with Sea Folk; Matt Tuon love story -- these are a few of my favorite things!
11:36 yay for the Matt v Trakands fight
I agree with everything that you said that you want to see
I'm hoping to see Egwene's capture and imprisonment in the Tower but they would have to do quite a bit of set up sooooo
I loved that part, and my son-in-law hated it. Of course, he really hated Egwene...
@@prinefan41 if he hated Egwene then why didn't he like the suffering she endured????
@@christopheryoder8292 He hated her immaturity. My pointing out that she was the youngest, but to no avail.
@@prinefan41 oh well. She wasn't my favorite either (I'm a Perrin fanboy) but I didn't hate her.
I think that’s S5
I really enjoy the Malden plotline, it is too long yes , but still enjoy it because it shows how awesome and capable Faile is.
But what I want/need to see is obviously Dumai‘s Wells and when Perrin forges Mah‘alleinir.
Personally I think DW will be the make or break point, if they do 80% on screen of what is on page, this battle will get so much attention, I feel we are safe afterwards to make it to Tarmon Gai’don
I need to see a dramatic entrance from Rosamund Pike to Rand's council and her to recite the karaethon cycle. She's soooo good it would be amazing.
...oh and of course Roedran getting swatted :)
If I dont see many trolloc deaths this coming season. I might go form the origin of the Whitecloaks.
To be fair, there are some aspects of the books a bunch of us don't care for. The problem with these things, as I see it, is that those with pretty negative views seem to dig in and feel compelled to convince people to their side in a less than respectful way. Its weird. As if the aim is to manipulate your opinion rather than discuss flaws with the show.
Red frame doorway and the 'Finn. Really hoping to get that craziness.
True! I love both the books and the show . But not everything
I really hope your right about getting them closer to the books. My level of excitement is kinda low. we'll see, I'm hoping. BTW, thanks for your videos. I do enjoy them.
My biggest concerns for Season 3 involve a) Mat and b) Egwene. With respect to Mat, I hope is just in Tanchico. I do not want him to be in Tanchico with the Elayne and Nynaeve and then somehow (through a red frame doorway?) end up in Rhuidian. Mat can still accidentally form the Band of the Red Hand after events in Tanchico rather than following Rand out of the Waste.
Egwene. There have been hints that Egwene, Nynaeve and Elyane go to the Tower so they can have their Accepted Test. If so, she has to then get to the Waste. I do not think that is plausible. I would rather she not go back to the Tower. Rather, her Dreaming Talents start happening at the beginning of Season 3 while in Falme. She starts to enter the World of Dreams and encounters an Aiel Dreamwalker (probably Amys). Amys tells Egwene to come to the Waste. When Rand announces he will go to the Waste, Egwene goes with the group.
Long term scenes I want to see. 1) Dumai's Wells; 2) Egwene leading the Novices and Accepted against the Seanchan in the Tower while the Aes Sedai are in effective. And their realization that Egwene is leading an effective resistance. 3) Egwene standing up to Elaida at the dinner when she is dripping with blood; 4) Tuon seeing that Mat is more than a courtier. He is really a competent general; 5) I hope the last season is just the last Battle. The ups and the downs in the fight. I want to see Egwene's final sacrifice; all the challenges to Demandred including Lan's killing him; and Mat's final push up the Heights and the blowing of the Horn just as it looks like Mat's final gamble will fall short.
Elayne is one of my favorite characters. Nevertheless, Jon, I agree. We csn do without the succession plotline. Have her assume the throne without a succession battle. As for the capture of Faile and her rescue, it should happen over the course of a half a season. Perhaps she gets captured at the end of season x. Perrin is able to rescue her by the end of Episode 4 the following season. Half a season is more than enough time.
I can hardly wait for season 4. The Wheel of Time is my favorite fantasy series, and I enjoy it on all of its platforms (book series, audio series, and the TV series). Regarding the TV series, I will be tuning in for every episode. I am hopeful The Wheel of Time will continue posting on X (as well As Blue Sky). Differing ideologies may keep some people from migrating to Blue Sky; so, having it on both platforms will hopefully give it the best opportunity to reach additional fans.
One thing I really want to see is the Finn. I have a feeling that isn’t gonna happen, though.
Totally agree - it's ok to like stuff or to not like stuff. Don't get personal and if you are being critical, it is always helpful to explain why or provide an example to help others understand. Similarly, when particularly liking stuff. For me, just because the show is different to the books isn't an automatic reason to hate it. 14 books were never going to fit into 8 seasons. Stuff was always going to be left out or combined to get through it all - and some of the fandom will always disagree with a change to something they liked And yes, some of the books were really slow so I hope for improvements. Personally, I'm not looking too far ahead. Yes, looking forward to Rhuidean as it is central to Rand's role and being able to call out Couladin, but really not all that interested in all the history stuff whilst in there (I skip that on re-reads). Matt has to get there too somehow to set himself up - necklace, prophecy, and hopefully his real weapon, and set up the army before aiding Elayne, Nynaeve, Thom and hopefully Julin in an Ebou Darr/Tanchico storyline - with the Kin and the Bowl. Hopefully we see Asmodean to teach Rand and looking forward to Perrin's growth with the Battle of Two Rivers. Nynaeve v Moghedien - and the rematches. Agree - the final battle needs to be a number of episodes given its length. ... And a decent Dumai Wells battle.
Hey! Move that logo::: I can’t see that wicked map!! LOL 😂
What a great hype vid!
I’m hoping to see the forced bonding. I think it could be amazing (in a horrible way) to push Rand into his dark times and twist an intimacy that was so beautifully depicted S2E8. Also want Mat/Birgitte fun.
With regards things i really want to see, i want to see the black tower arc. If we get DW then they should aim for this. But to do this they need Logain to be healed and for that they need him with NyNaeve.
The battle and the dreamspike was epic allbeit the build up took ages. It also shows the peril of being forcably turned.
Give me that.
Good late morning!!
Thats really cool of you to say. Im kind of an outsider here. I read the books. Loved them very personally. Love the show very much too. Im sorry if i ever posted anything annoying or offensive. You guys are real and good people fans.I still think that dog out acted Perrin.
I want some serious Aiel stories.
Really looking forward to season 3! Great video! Have to point this out though - it's not "Hindersnap" 😀
I definitely agree, the last battle has to be at least 4 episodes, if not more.
SPOILERS AHEAD lol
I want to see more of Nynaeve and her block, and then the moment she finally works through it. As well as all the iconic Matt moments, such as when he gets all the memories of his past lives and gets his neck scar. As well as more of Rand lol. Those are my three favorite characters, so I just want to see more of them in general. Also I am very excited to see Tuon, and more of Aviendha. I am so excited for season 3! Thanks for all the info on s3.
I also agree on the fact that both sides of the fandom can be a bit toxic. I love the show but do have a few complaints, for example, Min feels nothing like Min at all. I felt like they totally changed her. Everyone else at least feels similar but idk, for some reason's Min's character feels very off to me. So, I guess another thing I am hoping for is to improve her chaarcter a bit in s3.
the last battle is over 7 hours in the audio book!
I think my only potential issue with Mat going to Tanchico instead of Rhuidean is how they work in his Lord of Battles arc without it seeming to come out of nowhere
I think your take on the adaptation and the fandom's reaction to it is great. Elitists on both sides can definitely cause people in the middle who just want to watch and enjoy a show to shy away.
Regarding the spoiler section of your video, without adding my own spoilers, I'll just say I'm super excited for Mat's arc and how that plays out much later
I only started reading the books because of the series, so I'm approaching it from the norm. I'm concerned the 8 hours just isn't enough time to introduce Faile, developing their relationships enough for her to follow Perrin to 2 Rivers! The fight for the town continued for several chapters in the book. All that has to be condensed into 90 minutes. Perhaps at best 2 hours out of the 8 allowed for the season? Add Tanchico Rhuidan, the Waste, Mat facing off with the 2 Andoran men, and the coup at the White Tower. I just can't see 8 hours covering so much material!
My wish list for a must-see does include the cleansing. It is super important for all the male users. I'd love to see Nynaeve remove the 'stilling' from Logain and Moraine. Again important for Logain 's future position with the Ashermen. Don't think we need the 'road trips' of Elayne and Nynaeve, nor Mat, Tuon and the rescued Aes Sedai. But Mat & Tuon do need to meet to establish their future together. Nynaeve's breakthrough of her block, and subsequent marriage to Lan will be good to see. Then at the Final Battle, Lan's fight. That HAS TO BE INCLUDED. The rest of my list corresponds to yours. Only time will tell.
Before the series finale I’d love to see a “recap episode” but strictly from the perspective of Tam.
He is the real hero.
He is what Rand needed to defeat the Dark One.
The Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills, but Tam made a choice and that choice would be a great way to recap the whole series in one episode.
This is far and away my favorite fantasy series, and I've read A LOT of them. But there were things I didn't like...I could do without the menagerie stuff in it's entirety. I never liked the Elaine/Tom weirdness. Yeah, the whole Faile kidnapping thing went much too long. There are other things. What I'm saying is that you don't need to like everything in the series to enjoy the series. Same with the show.
As to what I need to see...season 3 is going to show me several things that you already mentioned. I think the dreamers gotta dream. Where is Tuon?????? Egwene and the rebels...and the Band of the Red Hand. I'm sure I'm forgetting stuff. Heck, even after all the re-reads I find new things every time I pick it back up.
I share your excitement!
This is my thought. Season 2 was ALREADY WRITTEN before season 1 aired. Audience feedback was not taken into account (mostly). For season 3, the writers had our feedback to work with. Season 3 could be seen as a reset of sorts. We should wipe our expectations.
In other words, there are different routes to get to the same place.
This seems like wishful thinking. Pretty sure the show runner and writers were openly saying the show was intentionally taking a different direction from the books. “Another turning of the wheel”.
I loved S2 90% Matt’s arc was awkward because they left Matt in Tar Valon in S1 because Barney left.
@@kathryncainmadsen5850 They had to shuffle storylines around because of Sofie Okonedo (Siuan)'s schedule as well. Rand was supposed to meet her early on in the season rather than towards the end.
@@kathryncainmadsen5850 there was a time skip between season 1 and 2. Where mats story left off in season 1 is irrelevant to s2. It’s just bad storytelling. Bad writing. Took something terrible and made it worse. Mats entire story for season 2 is bad. And not just bad because it’s a departure from his book story but also because it doesn’t come anywhere near capturing the soul of the character from the books.
i hope they include Hindertap and Rands healing attempt on the girl
Thank you John for fueling the hype and encouraging me to disagree.
I guess full books spoilers here as it's up to "Veins of Gold" chapter.
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Obviously it will be all the cool scenes like the Cleansing as you mention, Dumai´s Wells and all the other cool battle scenes. I'm a sucker for a cool magic battle that makes decent military sense.
For me I need the Veins of Gold to really hit home. I want Rand so have to experience some really tough stuff to really drive home that he has pretty much given up on life. He is in a ticking delf-deletion mode up until Veins of Gold. He has nothing to live for, he has sen some bad stuff and he knows he must die for the world to live.
So for me there are some events that really comes to mind.
1: The little girl during Tear. It's been a while since I read it, but I still remember how Rand cradles that little girld. I don't remember if she dies because he does something (does he blast a wall to try to block a Forsaken or Black Ajah?) and the girl dies from it. It would make sense to mirror back to the girl he and Mat see dead during S1. But Rand uses the One Power to try to reanimate her and bring her back to life. "What's the point of being the Dragon if I cannot save the innocent?" or whatever it is he says.
2: Obviously "The box" and how they treat him, and how that makes him turn against the Aes Sedai.
3: Sitting down with Fedwin Morr after he succumbed fully to Madness (in PoD chp29), and see Rand calmly slip poison into his wine to end his suffering.
I guess a Fallout-spoiler ahead but the segment where the Ghoul meets Roger, the Ghoul talks about all the good parts of apple pie before shooting him. We didn't know Roger but we all understood that it was a mercy-killing, and we all saw it as what The Ghoul would become. Make the viewers a bit more attached to Fedwin Morr and I think having Rand put him down could really strike home, as well as pointing to Rand trying to be Steel and shed all human emotions in order to do what must be done.
4: The male A'dam and Moghedien(?) using it against him to hurt Min.
Obviously losing Moiraine as a mentor, seeing the Maidens that pledged to him die (his list of women might be scrapped, but he still need to be hurt by it) and a bunch of other scenes as well.
I really think this all makes sense from RJ's Point of View. Being in Vietnam I think RJ has to see a lot of innocent civilians die. I can guess that he at some point saw dead childred and he himself wondered if it was really liberation if it ment the death of innocent kids. Same with fellow soldiers who became severely shellshocked which is my personal headcannon for "Madness". About having to not feel human emotions when face to face with an enemy combatant because you don't really want to shoot them but it's your life or theirs, or because it's your orders to wipe out the enemy.
For Veins of Gold to make sense, we really must see Rand's descent into Darth Rand. Because only then will that chapter be the revelation and release of emotion that I think we all felt when reading it.
I think an issue achieving point 1 is the outcome of S1e8. If they say you can't heal death with the one power but the viewer has already seen that with Eg and Nyn outside Sheinar then it sends a missed signal. I've seen chat that Nyn wasn't fully dead, but it's easy to say that when you have knowledge. The other women were burned out and unsavable but you never saw that as Egwene didn't try. All you saw was her cure Nyn and it sold the image that you could be resurrected.
It was an impactful part of the book and I loved the whole tear sequence, it's a shame we will unlikely see it. :(
That is an optimistic take on the show. My main gripe about is the sidelining of Rand, Mat, and Perrin. I just don’t think these are going to change based on comments by the showrunner and others involved in the show.
I don’t know what you are talking about. Did you not see Rand with Lanfear and Moiraine and LOGAIN and Siuan? He had a LOT of screen time- not sidelined at all. Perrin and the White Cloaks and Avi and with the horn and chasing Fain…. Yes, Mat (who spent a lot of this time unconscious in those books) had a hard time because he was meant to go with them to Fal Dara and Barney quit so they had to change it.
@@kathryncainmadsen5850he had a lot of screentime but no real impact on the show. Nothing came of his time with Logain. He was rescued from Lanfear, transported to where he needed to be for the end of the DR, carried out an Indiana Jones moment that was unearned, no swordplay at all, captured by the seanchan and saved by his pals.
The dragon concoction by Moiraine can't even categorically be pinned to him. There's a case that it could easily be Egwene.
They are severely undercooking Rand.
I hope Rand gets his powers kicked up a notch. As a book reader that loves the show I can't wait for season 3. The only thing I am dreading is the fact that Faile is the worst character in the book to me. I am just hoping they fix her lol.
That’s all great and stuff, but when does season 3 start though?
Hey Jon, love the idea to put up a graphic during spoiler discussions. BUT the one you used in this is IMO too small/not bold enough to see against your wall decorations. And/or, if you can change the location to the lower left corner it would be impossible to miss. 😉
Great idea!
What about rewinding to rewatch certain parts!
I don’t think any season will bring back the people who wanted an abbreviated scene by scene copy of the books. That’s not how adaptations work if they are good, so they will never be happy. I saw a LOT that I recognized. I’d be bored if it was straight out of the book. I already know that story. I like the fact that we see what was offstage in the books and new stuff. People who want abbreviated books will never like it.
I genuinely hope you are right. I'm on the fence. There's a lot I liked but more I didn't.
Reel in some of these events you described done well and I will be happier.
Non-negotiable, they need to promote the three boys. Nynaeve and Egwene need to take a back seat in this season.
I'd like a "Readers Digest" "Cliff's Notes" summary of the important parts of the story. There are several storylines that can be cut down considerably yet still be discussed such as Faiel kidnapping. Some parts shouldn't be cut down though such as the large conference getting the nations to cooperate.
I can do that!!
@@WoTUp I look forward to them!
Thanks for the first part of your video. The non-negotiable positivity towards the show, put me off from the fandom a bit. Especially as some of the main content creators in the fandom, are pretty openly critical towards (elements) of the show. Matt Hatch, Talk Aran Rhiod, you, Unraveling the Pattern... None are only positive.
100%!
This series had always been considered to be unadaptable because of how long it is, how many characters there are, etc. Rafe has taken on a herculean task trying to condense the books into a watchable series. Every adaptation has to combine book characters and change stories, and this one will need more than most. One book spends 500 of its 600 pages describing the various factions' reaction to the events at the end of the previous book. TV could accomplish that in 15 minutes of screen time, and no one in their right mind would try to pitch that without changes. I like to advise my friends who have read the books to watch with an eye for the outcomes. As long as they end up where they need to be, I'm ok with some deviation from the path.
I'd agree with you if he didn't add his own story into it. You can't argue that he had to condense material and merge characters when he wastes 80% of the series on his own story.
Another great video. I just don’t see how they can wrap this up in 8 seasons and make it… good. Sure, there will be some great acting and special effects, but there’s a lot that has to happen to wrap up.
it's okay to disagree very sad that you felt that way. I think it comes from a room of passion and not hate but it's not really a defence. It's great of you to speak up appreciate that
Just know that we all appreciate what you do
One thing I am personally interested in is Season 1 Episode 6 Suian's gown! I would love the statistics such as material, weight, how it is put on, etc.
I agree with X being loaded with adds
I totally agreed with you regarding the season finales. Is the problem too few episodes? Probably but the other problem is the writing. Rafe has deviated too far from the source material IMO. The casting and acting are fantastic. If Rafe would remain 80% true to the books in the adaptation, and stop developing new story lines that don't serve the endgame, we might all be happier. Cutting things is expected, but wasting time on new stories and switching main characters to other paths is disappointing.
Wait maybe I missed this in the video/previous video, are we getting the Stone in S3?
I want the big chase with Asmo.
I was actually wondering if it might help to pay for the no ads version of Prime the same day WoT drops
I love the idea of the Red Hand for Spoilers, but it is really tough to see on your background. Can you put that image on a solid circle or square of color? I had to really search for it even you were expressly talking about it.
Do you think if I upgrade to no commercial’s that would help 🤪
Lol i dunno if giving them more money helps :P
That is one of the craziest metrics ever. Oh well.
Hindersnap is one that I definitely could scrap. No Faile kidnapping ok cool. No Succession , okay. Cleansing the source, a must have. Everything can't be kept or kept the same. I'm excited for the show.
Are we gonna get Tear and Callandor in season 3?
I do not get it. Mat fighting Galad and Trakand was a fun scene. It was something to be between important scenes. But i do not think it critical to the entire story. (Like for example Dumai's Wells). I do not think the show would suffer if they never included this fight scene.
But it elevates Mat and brings him out of the shadow. Removing it would reduce his journey and a mechanism for the fan base to start routing for him. It's essential.
I want to address the issue of people being toxic and having toxic opinions. Both sides of the spectrum are going to destroy this show. On one end you have book absolutists. They basically won't give the show a fair chance to stand on it's own and any changes made they are adamantly against and they are completely unreasonable. That's fine if they keep it to themselves but when they scour UA-cam and social media and intentionally sink audience scores that creates a huge problem. Why is that a problem? It's a problem because this is likely the only adaptation we are going to get for the WoT in our lifetimes and even though it's not going to be exactly like the books some of us still want to enjoy it and don't want that chance sabotaged. They are unwilling to look at the fact that those books are unadaptable verbatim. There is not the time or the budget. To get the budget to adapt them like that the fan base and viewership would have to rival the Superbowl with every single episode and it would have to have advertisements like the Superbowl to pay for it. That's just not going to happen folks. It's completely unreasonable to expect an adaptation like that. That's one extreme. If that's not you, and don't like the show but you are more in the middle ground, that statement wasn't for you so don't have a panic attack and get all defensive.
The other extreme of the spectrum are the people who think the show is perfect and can do no wrong and think that any sort of criticism of the show because it's not matching the books isn't valid and shouldn't be listened to. This is equally as toxic. Why? Because this alienates people who are watching the show, giving it a good faith effort to watch in and like it, but still have criticism with the creative liberties the show creators are making to the story as compared to the books. Like I said. This is likely the only adaptation we are going to get, and we can't blow it. If we don't have the viewership to justify the cost of making the show, Amazon will cancel the show. They are in the business of making money. If they don't make money, they stop making the show, period.
All that being said. I encourage people to stick with the show, give constructive criticism where it's valid and make it reasonable. I think the best way to do that is to use the platforms available to say what you hope they include in the show, things you really don't want cut, such as the dual between Mat and the two princes of Andor that was talked about. Make it clear the things you think are vital to the story with the hope that they keep them. I'll offer one up right now. Amazon, don't kill characters before they are supposed to die. Sometimes it works in my opinion, sometimes it seems like a waste. For example, killing Uno while unpopular as he's a fan favorite worked in my opinion. It gave the necessary shock value to show people how bad the Seanchan are, and making him Gaidal Cain worked in my opinion. Uno was never central to the plot, he was a character that popped up a lot and was entertaining, and as a Hero of the Horn he can still do that. That move saves them on budget for actors too. Uno did a lot of traveling with characters central to the plot without being central himself and it's one less actor to pay in a traveling ensemble. One death that didn't work for me was Agelmar Jagad. It came across as way too soon, totally unnecessary, and he doesn't pop up enough to worry about budget that much. Also, the four Great Captains theme was ruined by that. I think that plot was central to the last battle but that just my opinion and I know others will or won't agree.
The last thing I will say is that look at the show from this context. Would you enjoy the show if you had never read the books? Be honest, if that answer is yes then just enjoy it on it's own and stop comparing the two. I've read the books through three times and while I do have criticisms, I am still enjoying the show. So for everyone to say that you can't separate the two because you have read the books, that is 100% on you and how you are choosing to feel about it. It's a choice you are making.
🥳 I'm looking forward to Mat fight the half-brothers.
I'm still annoyed that Mat won't be with Rand and doing the door frame thing. I'm hoping the door will still be a thing.
I do hope they don't have 3 seasons of the Faile rescue... they had better cut that plot line shorter. I agree with all your wish list. the cleansing has to happen...
I'm afraid to ask, how do you know all this???
I love to discuss the show with those who hate it when it’s actual critiques not attacks . So many people are really mean . But a good debate is so much fun!
I hope they do good with Rand
@ he is my favorite character and even if our deer host doesn’t want to see dark Rand I do want to see it just in a condensed version. Which by mere time alone they would necessarily have to shorten some things . I want to see him come out of the darkness to see the light and right of it!
I think they need to sort out the Rand story line as he is the core of the books and he is mainly sidelined. If not I think fans of the book will struggle to engage.
His journey is important for the female characters (who have been the focus of the show) to bounce off for their growth. It’s my biggest gripe…
For me the books are from a gender perspective is that both sexes are flawed and bias but best when working together, that is lost so far…
any elements of the books do you not like?
100%! Like anything else they are not perfect! Might be a video in that!
My biggest thing and this goes with pop culture in general, nothing gets to be ok anymore. It’s either incredible or bad. I love the show but it has flaws and is not great on every level technically. But terrible? Not really imo.
The thing that hamstrung this series from the beginning was the episode count. Almost all the criticism I see about the show would be solved if this show was being done in the brief area of 12-16 episode seasons.
Here’s my take. If I had never read the books, I would love the show. I feel the same way about the Eragon Movie, and the Percy Jackson Movies. The problem is, the named shows change too much of the core plots of the books. I understand all the reasons why movies MUST change things. Because you can’t hear inner monologue, and time constraints, ect. But you have to keep the core of the show. Harry Potter for example. Yes there was changes, but the plot is intact. You recognize the books in what you watch in the show. The Lord Of the Rings is another good example. The Wheel of Time is beloved by readers, and we want to recognize the books in the shows. That being said I’m still gonna watch season 3 lol. The actors were great and I think season 2 was much better written than 1, and I’m hoping the 3rd season is even better.
Any news on Nyn running into a certain forsaken in Tanchico?
:)
The thing I dislike the most about the show is the time between season. I get it...lots of post production stuff to do, but 2 years between 8 episode seasons? That and I hate the new Aes Sedai rings. ;) Overall, I enjoy the show (5/10), but I think I'd like it more if I hadn't read the books before.
Overall the show is doing a pretty good job of telling the story. It could be worse, the abomination known as Rings of Power which completely butchers the lore! I'm so excited for season 3 to start!!
I just hope they don't mess up what I think s3 finale will be bc it's one of my favorite arcs in the books but to get there they are going to have to really hoof it or adapt/cut a bit out to get there.
They just need to go back to the book a lot more, why wasn't it Rand in an epic battle to end season two :(
I will watch season 3 but I really just can’t imagine a world where Mat and Rand can be saved at this point. There are several other characters whose arc I feel have already been destroyed but season 2 last episode was a spit in the face to all book fans in my opinion.
So you are saying season 3 will be "unburdened by what has been". Got it
First, I want to say I really appreciate your attempt to be balanced and honest. I know you are your own person and you live the series (though your Gawyn love is still honestly a huge mystery to me ;-) )
Like you I am a longtime fan. I was 19 when I picked up ther series in 93. Fires of Heaven had just come out and a friend forced me to get it. Epic fantasy wasnt my jam- i was mostly hard sci fi as well as an Orson Scott Card fanboy then- but the Wheel of Time absolutely captured me.
Aside from the books, i bought the crappy abridged Mark Rolston read audiobooks, before later finding the Kramer/Reading audios. And of course i reread them multiple.times. like you, i waited for each book. I was on the newsgroups and on scifi's site, before going to dragonmount.
I loved the series,.as you do and wanted the tv series to do it justice. I know stories are not the words or even events. They are the characters and journey. Mediums are differrent.
When the show started i was cautiously optomistic. A few cringe moments- mischaracterizations or one sided focus- but i chalked it up to wobbley first legs and unreliable narrarator. Well, perrin having a wife who he killed is just all sorts of stupid and beyond the pale....but i gritted my teeth.
The mystery box of who the dragon was really hamstrung the 1st season. There was good stuff, but the focus was blurry . Adding a great but completely unnecessary story about AS and warders only wasted more time.
1.8 was terrible. Not a thing redeemable about it. But the lead up, including an unnecessary love triangle only worsened it.
Season 2 start well. Got even better. I LOVED their depiction of the dark characters- RJ sucked at showing more than shallow motivations for those who.joined the dark, aside for Ingtar. Liandrin, Ishamael and Lanfear stole it.
Unfortunately, we got garbage Lan,Moiraine shit. And while Rand started off really well, he very quicklu once again became a plot device, to be moved where needed, with no discernable agency or consistant motivation.
Egwene and Rena saved the back half. Nearly perfectly done. And elayne and nymaeve were set up perfectly.
And then 2.8 happened. Shit on a stove, the smell that permeates a room and inbues everything around it.
What is the common denominator here? What keeps fucking it up, when so much good writing, acting and direction sets up such great stuff?
A showrunner who is so fucking lazy and decides he wants his moment of.awesome without earning it. Make no mistake. RAFE JUDKINS is what keeps pulling down the brilliant cast, directing and writing.
So now s3 is coming. Am i excited? Not even a little bit. Am i hopeful? Uh, is Rafe still the showrunner? Then, no. Not at all.
Whats the sayjng? Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
Ill probably watch out of morbid curiosity. But i have only watched the series once, period. And that was at airtime. I couldnt give a shit to rewatch, not even to critique.
Maybe ill be proved wrong. I love great shows. But in thai day of things like Silo and Severence and Foundation and Penguin and Shogun, to think that this hot garbage that comes garbed in the name of this series that was my life for 20 years is gonna have any loyalty or recommendation or even fucking expectations from me is ridiculous.
I know what good, even brilliant tv is. Im not gonna artificially inflate this show when the boys and genv are out there. Subsidize a showrunner who has a track record of shitting over the back half? A guy who decides he wants to do something becuase he wants his unearned moments of awesome? Why would i do that? Rafe doesnt get a participation trophy from me. At the end of the day, its the story that matters- the whole thing, not parts.
Wot aint it. And Rafe Judkins is to blame. Sanderson had made his feelings clear. And the deafening silence from Team Jordan (legally bound no doubt) says all there is to say.
Maybe things will be better. But we're 1/4 though the whole story and frankly, it has been a shit show. I wouldnt hope the next 3/4 would suddenly taste better.
I wish RJs legacy had gotten a showrunner who respected the source and how to tell a story properly. Hell, Cross and Reacher are a billion times better.
Rj deserved better. Not sure how it can be saved at this point.
One other thing to comment on as i watch your video. Having certain scenes or stories from the books is great. Awesome. Wonderful.
But will they stick the landing. Will they respect the story. Or will Rafe write the last episode and fumble any good stuff that has been shown.
That is the problem. I have NO REASON to think that Rafe wont be able to keep from insterting himself, like Puffy in the music video, into the story to put his stamp or spin on it.
That is the problem. That is what makes me jaded and not give a shit. Good stories in the middle dont negate a terrible.wrap up. And i dont trust Rafe.
Not even a little bit.
This is excellent. You are 100% spot on and reflects a significant portion of the fanbase which should not be overlooked or chastised. This was the prime opportunity to relate a story as close to the books as humanly possible with the understanding that some of the "padding" needed to go. What we actually got was a lead who removed the fat, muscle and bones leaving behind only the skin. By doing so he injected his own story dressed in the names and clothing of the characters we have fallen in love with.
Yes there are snippets of the story in There; the Trollocs attack on rands hut (80%), Shador Logoth (80%), Rand and mat at a farm (10%), the eye (5%), Shienar (10%), Egwene and Rena (80%). The rest is made up bullsh*T. What a waste of an opportunity.
The two season finales have been either criminal in design and execution or completely missed the mark. I understand "insiders" promoting optimism for S3 but how much has been offered but then woefully under achieved? This sits solely with Rafe and anyone pretending to be book experts attached to the show. They are riding by their hubris and need to justify decisions.
I don't get the defense saying they made changes for the non book reader. If they told the story and told it well, this would have erupted and been a mega success on par with GOT. Instead this will be forgotten in less time than it has taken to get to season 3.
I was desperate for this show, I yearned to see it done justice. And it hasn't. I'm not bothered about the casting as in large it's been fabulous. The poor quality of writing, and insertion of Rafe's wet dreams (e.g. the Moiraine and Suian relationship) stinks.
Like you season 3 will get my attention when it comes but the drive to increase its "market" presence, doesn't sit with me and I won't manipulate my subscriptions or viewing habit to support this show in it's current direction of travel.
Time will tell...
@@ianohlanderthe series has come out in the wrong time period. This needed to be shelved until the phase is social grandstanding and identity politics and quotas was behind us. The "rules" set by the bubble that is Hollywood has destroyed great story telling.
@@LeeTurnock-zy2dg the sad part is so many people are doing fantastic work on the show. The actors are wonderful. Overall, i have no issue with the casting aside from a few minor quibbles. The acting itself is good.
The music, the sets, the effects (s2 anyway and parts of 1) are great. And im being completely honest that there has been some absolutely wonderful writing. 2.6 with Egwene and Rena was beautiful and painful. Liandrin has stolen the show with her story. Nynaeve's testing. And Lanfear and Ishamaal....i mean what can you say.
Thing is, i dont mind a different turning of the wheel. I enjoy guessing and being unsure of things. Being predictable isnt enjoyable. Yes, there are moments i need to see. And as long as they can get there in an organic way, i am happy.
Good writing is good writing.
The problem is when Rafe decides hes a writer and comes along and takes the brilliance of everyone and shits on it to create a climax out of thin air. When he decides he wants a water cooler moment that everyone is gonna talk about, but has no fucking idea how to do it with what has come before.
Even if you hadnt read the books, s2's ending was just garbage and all over the place. Non book readers cant know what is going on. Book readers cant be sure that what is happening is consistant with the book world.
The story contradicts itself, over and then underpowering (rand being shielded and weak multiple times and then strong- theres no 2 rivers core of iron that was at Rands center. He spent the majority of the show on his knees or begging for help; egwene and ishy), creating melodramatic character moments that are never mentioned again (perrin egwene rand triangle), blow ups that are drawn out and artificial and at the end of the day, have done nothing to move the story along (lan and moiraine in s2), taking brilliant setups (nynaeve and elayne getting ready to save Egwene then completely nerfing them for the ending)....
This is 90s and early 2000s level episodic tv, where momentary moments and each episode ratings are the goal, rather than the longform that streaming has brought.
Im talking smallville, lost, 25, alias, agents of shield style shows. Make no mistake, i loved some of those, even with those issues. Or rather DESPITE those issues.
But in this day of streaming, of entire seasosn filmed in one go as a long form movie, this is unacceptable. Esp when it comes from a belived property.
Wanna see what an adaptation looks like? Shogun, Fallout, The Boys, The Last of Us, Foundation, Silo. Being faithful to every scene is not necessary. Merging characters or shifting stories is fine. Making it new and wonderful is good.
But you better tell a good story. A complete story. Veritasium had a recent video where he discussed studies and experiments that show that we judge an entire experience based on the final part. Thats how the mknd works.
Rafe created a great team. And then should have been sent off to be the studio garbage man. Not the guy responsible for the finals that would tie up the entire season experience.
In a world with Fallout or Severence out there, amazon/sony has no excuse for this. None.
As long as rafe is involved in the ending, i wont be artifically inflating numbers or rewatching. If s3's ending isnt Rafe's , then maybe, just maybe there is hope.
But im not holding my breath. There are far better shows i can watch. Apple tv is consistantly good. And amazons non wot stuff has been fantastic.
@@ianohlandermy issue with the writing stems from a) their apparent lack of understanding of the material and character motivations and b) unearned and last minute step changes to plot movement. As an example; give Rand a storyline of infiltrating the asylum to get to Logain and a trial to retrieve wine for it to have no pay off. Are they seriously telling me that Logains advise was "grab the power" and then "not too much".
They have mucked up the opportunity to clearly separate the power systems and why the male half is so dangerous. This comes from. Too much change and not having a clear plan as to how to get from A to B. This has come as a result of the dragon mystery box, and a need to insert different story beats.
I get people are happy with changes as it's not the books and gives them something new, but I don't honestly understand why we wouldn't want to see the story honoured and kept as aligned to the source material as possible on its first pass. It's what we've been waiting for.
Another example of where they dropped the ball was the Egwene and Rena scenes. I'm with you, the breaking of Egwene was excellent and really sold the darkness of the Seanchan. They had Elayne and Nynaeve set up to assist with the rescue and even captured a Suldam, they even had Mat close by as per the books. What we got was a gear change on Egwene and the result that she killed Renna. How?!?!, what purpose does that serve?!?! What message does that send the Seanchan?!? It's GOT S8F all over it again.
There's too many examples where by stepping off source they snowballed into a world of pain, and whilst casual viewers are watching I would be gobsmacked if they are fully immersed in what is happening.
This is on the Show Runner, but I also suspect their was external pressures to make certain plot points stick (e.g. the Moiraine and Suian). If the story was good enough to make them they should have honoured the material and stuck to the lane. What they saw was a large popular book series with a strong fanbase and tried to milk us.
I cannot imagine someone watching season 3 if they disliked most of the aspects of both season 1 and 2. Jon, what makes you think that if someone strongly disliked the first 2 seasons, they would watch season 3. I could understand if someone was luke warm on the first 2 seasons they might watch season 3.
I am not talking about people who will watch for no other reason so they can post negative things about the show. It is likely there will be enough reasons for someone who generally likes it but has gripes with certain parts. I am sure there will be things about the season I do not like. I wish it would be perfect TV. But that is unlikely given the past seasons. And I enjoyed seasons 1 and 2
I fear that we may only get 2 more seasons if season 3 goes well. That would require a lot of cutting but they could still tell a story that gets them to the last battle.
The Proclamation to the world of The Dragon Reborn was a moment to be seen, and it fell pretty flatt on screen. If they are combining books 3 & 4, we should see Rand's true power (and more with the sa'angreal) . If the plan is a road to Lord of Chaos, then over season 3 and 4, he must live with that Power, so he can be consumed by it. Change is expected, some of it applauded (Lanfear is excellent in the show), but The Wheel of Time is the story of The Dragon and his arc has been very weak so far.
I have a very hard time imagining the Mat vs Gawyn/Galad scene happening in season 3. Just based on where characters are and where they seem likely to be in upcoming storylines, I don't understand how those three would end up in the same place at the same time.
Obvs gateways and skimming will help justify this but after the first couple of times it'll be separated into Traveling (an effects shot for wielders of the One Power) and fast travel (a plot expedient that handwaves anyone to be in any location). The only time anyone will use the Ways after that is if there's a plot element they have to go in there to get.
The RandLews amalgamation would be great... I wish they could have done the Bl-Twr./Dumai's Wells (that would have been the highlite of the entire series)... I would however NEED to see the Cleansing of the "Taint" & DragonMount.....There is sooooo much material....smh.....
Spoiler Theory:
What if Padan Fain & Eamon Valda from the show are fused together and they become the shows version of Slayer.
What is hateful?
I hate Suiraine not because I hate lesbians but because it's not what RJ wrote. I hate Alana polyamory because it's smut and I hate smut (as did the High Episcopalian RJ). I hate the race bending ( I'm a middle aged black man btw) because it breaks my head cannon.
Will these views be welcome in you BlySky group hug?
First again! 😁
Woo hoo!
I have an idea for you John, what about a show about what happens after the end of the books. Where would the story go?
I'm again reading AMOL and forgot how much time is wasted on Androl. Ugh. Cut him please (if show makes it that far).
I love S1 and generally liked S2. Rafe and team have done a spectacular job adapting my favorite book series and the actors have blown me away with their performances, including what I truly didn’t expect to like, like Padan Fain and Liandrin. I have as much of a problem with book fans as I do with show fans who are overly critical for the artist’s creation (Jordan, Sanderson, and Rafe). PS - There is no slog. PPS - Mat is the best.
You’re never going to be able to please everyone. Just like what you like. Overall I don’t enjoy what they’ve done to Robert Jordan’s story in the series but I still find parts of it that I do like just because it’s my favorite book series ever. That said, I don’t begrudge anyone, who loves every element of it. I continue to hope for good things for the next season.
I'm so tired of hearing the "it's like a different turning of the Wheel" excuse. It's a nice way of saying they changed to much stuff from the main story. They added in modern new age agenda driven B.S. A very beautiful story got drug through the mud. Hopefully they can pull it out, wash it off, and actually make something close to cannon. Doesn't have to be exact. Just not completely different. That's my opinion, and the same as many others. It's sad but true
It’s weird when you point out a thing that doesn’t make sense logic wise and are attacked for it - almost as if the hostility is astroturfed
I dont see how this adaption of my #1 fav book series can be saved at this point. I have Prime for toher reasons continuously so I will watch season 3 but I have really given up on seeing a books series and this is truly an alternate reality or another, mirrored, turn of the wheel.
Dude, I totally respect you more for being honest. It's ok to criticize Sony and/or Amazon. The finale of season 2 really shat the bed for anyone who read the books.