The Eternal Debate: Doom Patrol And The X-Men
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- Опубліковано 30 вер 2024
- In 1963 both DC’s Doom Patrol and Marvel’s X-Men debuted. Since then it’s been speculated that The X-Men, which debuted in September of 1963, were a copy of Doom Patrol, which debuted in June of 1963.
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#DCComics #MarvelComics #SilverAge #DoomPatrol #X-Men #Comics #StanLee #JackKirby #OverlordComics
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For me it's too coincidental to not be true but a similar thing happened with Dennis The Menace. But so much Time has passed that the comic lines represent 2 different things X-men being a metaphor for race, sexuality, finding pride in being unique, and the future of man kind. Doom Patrol later became a representation of trauma and how people cope with others
Great research on an interesting topic. I still think the Doom Patrol are massively underrated.
dfcsons Ever since I’ve discovered the Doom Patrol when a live-action TV show was gonna be made, they are now my favourite superhero team of all time!
The x-men were based of the doom patrol, who were based on the fantastic 4, who were based on the challenger of the unknown
challenger of what now?
Doom Patrol has a lot of elements from Fantastic Four.
I think its more likely that Doom Patrol was a DC reply to the Fantastic Four. Look at the evidence. Prior to Doom Patrol DC heroes never argued, were not considered 'freaks' or oddities and their powers were not considered handicaps or impediments. The FF were essentially realistic people who gained powers, sometimes to their own detriment. I believe DP took this notion one step further and gave DC realistically portrayed characters for the first time. The make up of both teams parallel one another also. The surface similarities between DP and X-Men are fewx mostly boiling down to both leaders being wheelchair bound, but again The Chief and Professor X are vastly different in terms of personality and powers (or lack thereof). Caulder is far closer conceptually to Reed Richards than Charles Xavier.
Could the X-men's similarities with doom patrol, be because both had similarities in influences from sci-fi magazine short story fiction?
What about the Challengers of the Unknown and the Fantastic Four?
I think similarities there are mostly Jack Kirby had his own tropes and influences and experiences that he drew on his works.
I basically agree with Sean on that one. Regardless, it's a topic I would like to tackle since it is a recurring debate among comic fans.
Jack Kirby admitted to basing the FF on his earlier work CotU.
Doom Patrol is a crazy bizarre family comic. X-Men is pure teenage drama. X-men never solves their problems. The story never advances.
Mind blowing I always knew he’s King Kirby but that level of productive genius between him and Stan Lee is now the stuff of legend will NEVER happen again lightning doesn’t strike the same tree twice !
I think qualities like the 'Strange Heroes' tagline and 'the Brotherhood of Evil/ Mutants' were more about the publishers trolling each other after realising their two unique properties had glaring similarities, as superhero comics generally did in the Golden Age and into the Silver Age. Plagiarism only seemed to be an issue when an idea (Captain Marvel) outperformed its inspiration (Superman), and it's more likely that the Chief/ Professor X dynamic was simultaneously drawn from another source, rather than being wholly original one way or another. Neither is 'better' than the other based on what arguably 'came first,' and both evolved into even more unique seperate entities loved by fans for different reasons, so it becomes a moot argument.
Stan Lee was not beyond copying a format to try and compete with DC comics. Jack Kirby was a force of nature !!!
Copying a format was more Martin Goodman's doing. Stan did inspire himself on concepts from other heroes, but he was always direct about it. When asked about his inspirations for Reed Richards, he said he always liked Plastic Man abilities and he feelt the character's power wasn't used in it's full potential.
A thoughtful analysis. But if there was any copying, it was Doom Patrol copying the Fantastic Four. You've got two energy beings who can fly (Human Torch and Negative Man), two scientific leaders (Mr Fantastic and the Chief), two people who can stretch (Mr. Fantastic and Elasti Girl), two who can disappear (Invisible Girl and if Elasti Girl shrinks to ant size) and two who are orange, tormented and strong (The Thing and Robotman).
The X-men started as a rip-off to Doom Patrol. It’s uncanny. But, they ended up making better stories with the stolen premise.
Great, now compare the original Doom Patrol and Fantastic Four ....
RubberyCat Who’s the chief supposed to be in that picture
@@parodysam
Well, Elastagirl couldn't be the brains in the outfit back then, so the brains had to be another character(Chief), while she became able to become a giant as well.
RubberyCat it was still different enough that Marvel felt the need to copy it. It’s about what they do with the characters tho. The new Doom Patrol show’s pretty good, the X-men movies are too. Hopefully the fantastic four get the movie they deserve in the mcu.
@@parodysam Copy Doom Patrol?
Ah, yes, some things are clearly copied, but a lot of others are not:
Prof X has mastery telepathy++++ ....
Beast are both the muscles AND the brains, but not the Leader, Cyclops only has one powerful ability ... that is trained to be versatile + he's the one trained as leader, ... well, simply put, NONE of the powersets from Doom Patrol was copied, while Doom Patrol almost copied the powersets from FF entirely.
I agree with you on the Doom Patrol live-action series, and i agree on FF in MCU as well.
...Frankly, i'm looking forward to MCU finally doing Dr Doom RIGHT !
I'd be more prone to believe that they didn't copy Doom Patrol if the coincidence of 2 pieces of art, with almost identical concepts, released from 2 rival companies in close succession to one another was a common occurrence.
Sorry I find it highly unlikely that such a similarity as The Brotherhood of Evil (Mutants) to be pure coincidence. It is far too specific and unique. Furthermore your dismissal on the basis of time scales is weak at best. Marvel could have found out about DC plans up to 6 months before, as Drske suggested, giving them plenty of time to cancel a title and create a new one. It would be logical for them to consider another superhero team after the success of the FF and plan ahead, with Doom Patrol supplying the final idea for one. Stan Lee is also on record as stating that he originally came up with the idea of a mutant origin in order to save time thinking new individual ones for each member. I guess even he had realised that radiation accidents could not account for every origin, such as the FF, Spider-Man, Daredevil and Hulk to name a few.
Now, do not forget to analyze the similarities between Doom Patrol and Fantastic Four, and see what you find ...
@@RubberyCat You mean the FF that were inspired by the JLA success and based on the Challengers of the Unknown as Jack Kirby admitted? Or Mr. Fantastic, a scientist who through an accident during an experiment gained stretching powers, exactly like Elongated Man, who also fell in love and married a girl called Sue? Or maybe Invisible Girl, who is based on Phantom Lass and Invisible Kid? Because anyone comparing Negative Man to the Human Torch is clutching at straws, as they are completely different. Both Robotman and Thing are based off Frankenstein's monster, a human soul trapped in a monstrous body, especially Robotman, as his was also assembled and brought to life electrically. Elastigirl is similar to Elongated Man, who preceded Mr. Fantastic. Furthermore the FF embraced their public identities and were loved by the public whereas DP were totally shunned and avoided everyone. FF stories were sci-fi inspired whereas DP were horror based.
@@Cervando
Well, you do have some things messed up there.
I mean, Kirby admitted using Challengers of the unknown, they were his own creations as well, so whatever.
But comparing thing to the monster?
Well, there is the alienation thing, but really, if you think about it, Fantastic Four is a family, and they are more comparable to the western definition of the four elements, with Mr Fantastic having similarities to water, and Invisible Girl being air ... or at least looking the part.
Mind you, the start of Fantastic four was playing up the "Monster Horror" theme ... at least on the covers, in order to not alert DC to that Marvel were launching their own super group.
But by the way, when you point out differences ... can Phantom Lass or Invisible Kid use forcefields?
Also, are any of those two, Elongated Man, Negative Man and Robot Man or Frankenstein's monster related as a family?
Are the entire JLA actually related enough to be called a family?
The thing is, looking at "the Brotherhood of Evil" and "the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants" do seem aggravating, but as DC obviously had a lot of heroes named "-Man", "-Kid" and "-Girl", i truly think that "Brotherhood of Evil Mutants" was simply due to lack of fantasy.
How about comparing the characters between Doom Patrol and the first X-Men, and not just their leader?
No?
Are they too different, perhaps?
While the powerset when one compares FF and DP are och-so-obviously-similar?
Really, i personally think the "Who came first" is stupid.
The question is "Who does it in a way i like it?".
And frankly, neither the original Doom Patrol or the original X-Men seems to have been very good, X-Men did not become really good until Claremont and Byrne got their hands on it, and Doom Patrol did not become great until Morrison got his hands on it.
As for Fantastic Four .... i guess a few of the early ones were decent or even good, but it took some time until they really got good consistently, i guess?
(After looking through the Marvel Wiki, i find that some of the old FF-things that was good back then was Roy Thomas' run.)
I have not read any old JLA i remember well enough, so i can't compare.
@@RubberyCat By your own analysis, you contradict that DP were based on FF, as the former were not based on the 4 elements nor a family. However, it is a known fact that the FF were created as a direct response to the JLA and based on the CotU, which Kirby had indeed previously created for DC. Elastigirl's powers were more size changing than stretching and as I said Elongated Man predated Mr. Fantastic, as did Plastic Man for that matter. As to strong, tough characters, the Thing was hardly the first and Robotman was a cyborg, not a rock like monster. The others are completely different to the remaining team members. The similarities are few and not the first time they had been seen.
The similarities between DP and X-Men were highly specific and had never been seen before. A wheelchair bound genius who gathered a group of superpowered social outcasts is very specific and had not been seen prior to DP. The same is true of the highly specific and unique name for the Brotherhood of Evil. The similar cover catchphrase is a third similarity which again was unique and new. Three unique and new things that X-Men copied is far more obvious plagiarism than any vague and generic similarity that DP had to FF.
I fail to see how DC having many heroes called Kid , Lass, Girl or boy makes it any less likely that Invisible Woman is not inspired by Invisible Kid, when they both have almost identical names and both can turn invisible at will. In fact the Legion of Superheroes inspired many Marvel mutants as well, most famously Wolverine and Magneto, via Timberwolf and Dr. Polaris respectively.
Finally, as I have said before, I am fine with plagiarism, as long as due credit is acknowledged and the copy brings something new and better. Thus Spiderman is one of my very favourite Superheroes, despite borrowing heavily from both Tarantula and Spider Queen.
@@Cervando
Genius in a wheelchair .... gathering odd types ...
Hm, Persuaders comes to mind .... but then again, that guy could walk, he had just a flair for drama...
BUT WAIT ... i have seen another "important guy in wheelchair" ....
Hmm...
Harker in Marvel's Dracula ...
Yes, but there is one more ...
Shang Chi, that british guy ... (looks it up)
Denis Nayland Smith, in the beginning, he was also in a wheelchair.
And that guy originally came from the Fu Manchu - property.
Very many bosses in wheelchairs, i'd say.
Really, i think it was an idea that circulated, at the time, and may even have been common in pulp-stories at the time.
Of course, that last part is guessing, but 3 in Marvel and at least 1 in DC ... there has to have been another source of inspiration, just like with Swamp- and Man-Thing.
I'm putting forth differences as well as similarities, because THEY ARE THERE !
And because of noted differences, it is probably stupid to speak of "plagiarism" when 1: the differences is also clear and noteable, and 2: the similarities could just as well have been taken from a third and/or fourth source.
Oh, And as for The visual differences between DP & FF, back then it mattered very little if the armored hide was metal or stone-like, or where the strength came from, it also did not matter if fire was actual fire or nuclear.
I always saw the Doom Patrol as (wonderful) ripoffs of the Fantastic Four. Four characters. Orange, grumpy inhuman material skinned strongman. Blond guy with a flying energy alter ego that leaves a yellow outlined trail. Beautiful girl whose power lets her disappear from sight and sneak unnoticed. Dispassionate genius leading them. They even have a race car driver/gear head and ex-Air Force pilot, but have swapped them. And a character with Elasti powers (even not reslized tthe same way).
And I'm greatful for the ripping off since Doom Patrol was a childhood favorite.
Aaaah yes.. TIS the eternal debate. Good coverage mate!
Marvel’s output in the 60’s really was something back then and what made it that way was how different they wrote and made comics versus DC. Even a title that legend says was supposed to be a rip-off: justice league and fantastic four, were so unique from one another, there’s no comparison. Quite frankly, while there are similarities between the two, Stan and Jack just didn’t need to look at what someone else was doing and wholesale rip it off. They never really needed to.
In October 1962 Marvel was publishing 12 titles, Linda Carter has been canceled, even though Charlton has three Nurse books and two young doctors books. Amazing Spider-Man replaces Linda Carter in the line-up. They have one and three fifths issues in inventory. Iron Man debuts. Was he created because Ditko didn’t want Spider-Man to be a member of the planned Avengers? Has Ditko been offered Daredevil yet? Instead of Spider-Man, or in addition? As usual, the Fantastic Four and Two Gun Kid issue is assigned to KIrby with very tight deadlines. It seems only Kirby and Hartley are given assignments this month, to close out the releases for this year and eliminate inventory. Is this because Goodman is evaluating his plans for his 1963 comics line after consulting with INC? Has the decision to cancel the Hulk been made? To replace it with Sgt. Fury? To take Kirby off Two Gun Kid and Rawhide Kid? To give them respectively to Ayers and Davis? To launch the Avengers in the summer (if Iron Man doesn’t tank?). To launch Daredevil by Everett in the summer?
In November 1962 Marvel was publishing 10 titles, Ditko is given Hulk for its final issue. Kirby and Lee never could get on the same page with that feature. As he does this, is Ditko trying to sell Lee on his idea for a character named Dr. Strange, his version of Kirby’s failed Dr. Droom? Kirby is off Thor. Hartley got that one, in compensation for losing Linda Carter? Heck has taken over Ant Man. Davis has taken over Rawhide Kid. Two Gun Kid is given to Ayers as Kirby returns to Torch. Kirby is now drawing Iron Man, in preparation for Avengers? He starts on his Sgt. Fury with very loose deadlines, as he also works on two issues of the Fantastic Four, one with normal deadlines, and the second with loose deadlines as he is allowed to try and get ahead on that book.
Between Mid-December 1962 and mid-January 1963 the Wasp introduced in Ant-Man by Kirby (to round out the Avengers team dynamic?) for the 1963-03-05 Tales to Astonish #44.
In the 1963-02-23 The Comics Reader #16 we are told to EXPECT TO SEE: a meeting of all the Marvel heroes.
Production on the 1963-07-02 Avengers #1 begins around March 15, 1963. It make sense that production on Daredevil by Bill Everett probably begins at the same time.
In the fanzine Hero #2 (Spring 1963) it is mentioned that the creation of the Avengers (a group comic) is a good move.
In mid April 1963 a full page promo ad, with cover, for Avengers #1 is placed in the 1963-06-11 Tales of Suspense #45 before sending the book to the printers. The X-Men logo (but no slogan) can be seen in a crawl at the top or bottom of the page.
Before sending the the 1963-06-11 Amazing Spider-Man #4 to the printers (or added at the printers before the issue was put to press) a large version of the logo of the X-Men (along with the slogan “The Strangest Super-Heroes of All'') is inserted sideways on the second page of the letter column.
Between mid-April and mid-May1963, with the cancellation of the bi-monthlies, Gunsmoke Western and Love Romances, Amazing Spider-Man became monthly and Modeling with Millie and Patsy Walker became 8 times a year titles. INC allows the bi-monthly Avengers to officially be added to the regular 10 titles. X-Men replaces the undelivered Daredevil and INC allows this to officially be added to the regular 10 titles. INC now allows Marvel to release 11 titles per month. Jerry Siegel’s second (and last) job for Marvel is two job numbers before the job number for X-Men #1. Are the X-Men, among other things, Marvel’s version of the Legion of Super-Heroes? The addition of Professor X makes them a kid gang. Was putting him in a wheelchair inspired by the 1963-04-18 My Greatest Adventures #83? Was Magneto inspired by Doctor Polaris in the 1963-04-04 Green Lantern #21? (What about the 1961 usage of the name?) Did Cyclops get his visor from Doctor Solar? Did the printer, as was their habit, send the cover of 1963-06-06 Doctor Solar, MAN of the ATOM #5 (the first with visor and super-suit), amongst all others, to Marvel?
Was the Lava Man in the Thor feature in the 1963-08-01 Journey into Mystery #97 inspired by the return of the Volcano Man in the 1963-04-11 Challengers of the Unknown #32?
Great idea for a video, however your use of "goddamn" and "damn" seems awkward and unnecessary to me.
I agree 100%. This is an early video when I had yet to settle down. Practically everything in the last three years or so contains no profanity whatsoever. Unless I'm quoting a source. Otherwise, I don't work "blue".
@@StrangeBrainParts cool. I've really no issue with profanity. It just seemed out of place. Thanks for the response. You do good work.
☼ it also assumes there was no knowledge of what was going on at the competitor until it hit stands. & no talking between artists. which is unlikely.
It wasn't unusual for both companies to filch different characters from each other and then recreate them. Even if their powers and attributes were similar, I don't think it really matters so long as their actual personalities and lifestyles could be altered to the point that they were quite different, and are better or worst characters than their previous versions. Examples of these are the Flash and Quicksilver, the Guardians and the Watcher, and other insect and arachnid superheroes before Spider Man. The Fantastic Four were also supposed to be based on an earlier Jack Kirby creation, Challengers of the Unknown. It's up to you what versions you think are the most original.
Good video! Perhaps one day you could make a video about the Celestials. The origins of the concept and influences .
Good idea! I will look into it soon.
I never knew that DC used to distribute comics for Marvel 🤣
first heard about this listening to Lord finesse diss LOTU
I think Marvel made the space ...already had The Avengers...but needed something for the 2nd space& some concepts were already there i.e. used ideas. So it could happen even faster with K& L. along with a lil help from others on the sideline.
In addition:- By 1962/3 DC would have begun to take notice of the upstart Marvel Comics and it is not outside the realms of possibility that, in a strange parallel to the JLA/FF creation, DC instructed a writer or editor to come up with a feature similar in tone to Marvel's top selling title. Drake's assertion about freelancer cross pollination seems unlikely to me. There was very little if any, crossing of talent during this period, that would not begin to happen until later in the decade.
Sure they have superficial similarities but they're also quite differently written and show pretty different circumstances...
100% a rip off but at least it's a good rip off.
☼ another gr8 analysis. really good. i like how you take a position. in all ive seen; you say when a comic doesnt hold up. its good. 6:20 oh, and there you go. nm.
I have never gotten the impression that Doom Patrol was either a financial or critical hit to the extent that Marvel would have felt the need to instantly copy it...perhaps Somebody mentioned the brotherhood name to Stan, and that is the only concession I can make...nothing else about the book stands out as something needing to be copied...
They ripped off Doom Patrol.
They did not need 12 weeks.
They heard about the book through the grapevine.
Both books are great.
Hey SBP, quick question. Is the Swamp Thing History series going to resume and if so when?
Yes, sir. It will resume soon. I don't have an exact date. I am currently editing the next two parts, though.
@@StrangeBrainParts You 're a God send mate
@@StrangeBrainParts i to, am thrilled to hear this wonderful revelation!!! I'm holding my breath!
Where can i find the oficial credits of the work of Jack kirby in marvel like the ones you used in this video and the oficial credits of what characters he created and wich he cocreated?
Jack Kirby created almost everything.
Even Spider-Man.
Jack Kirby said this in a interview when he was asked about his involment in the creation of Spider-Man...
"I created Spider-Man. We decided to give it to Steve Ditko. I drew the first Spider-Man cover. I created the character. I created the costume. I created all those books, but I couldn’t do them all. We decided to give the book to Steve Ditko who was the right man for the job. He did a wonderful job on that."
@@comicbookguy6361 I know what you mean. I saw the catoonist kayfabe episode where they mention this interview. But that was after the legal battle for his art and I belive he was pissed and exhagerated. He created the silver spider who was supposed to be an orphan teen but this was a unpublish art and in interwiews he doesn’t seem to remember much of spiderman lore or personality, he just describe him as a guy who can stick to walls. Also the silver spider design had more in comom with his captain America and omac. Ditko said he came up with the suit because Lee was doing one to similar to jacks. The way I see it spiderman was a “sort of collaboration” between Lee and Ditko, jacks concept was to undevelpe to consider him a creator that’s why he gets the “special thanks to Jack Kirby” in the credits.
Anyways that wasn’t what I asked.
With all due respect to Arnold Drake, I never bought the notion that the X-Men were a Doom Patrol knock-off. That said, I do believe that the Doom Patrol was DC's answer to Marvel's Fantastic Four!
Wasn't fantastic four based on the challengers of the unknown?
@@jd7337 I'm aware of that notion but I don't think so. "Based on" is too strong a term. Maybe Kirby recycled some elements from Challs while fleshing out Stan Lee's FF ideas but, to me, the similarities begin and end with " Four people survive a crash landing then put on matching outfits".
X-men! No, wait! Doom Patrol! No, wait, I prefer Dark Horse so I just enjoy the argument between DC and Marvel fans!
This was great though. I love that it's not impossible yet not likely either.
Checkmate you fencesitting hippie, Dark Horse is a publisher, not a superhero team! DC vs Marvel argument enjoyers win again! Now you have to pick one or the other or be shunned forever.
@@nothanksbro4525 I never claimed Dark Horse was a team. I stated I am a Dark Horse fan amused by the argument between Marvel and DC fans.
@@mmickle6191 I know, I was being stupid for the sake of the joke. Hence why I called you a fencesitting hippie. On a different note, Dark Horse are awesome, so all in all you definitely have good taste.
Dude. So glad I stumbled across you. Digging through your back log. Love the vids. Comics and documents are my favorites. You do an excellent job of doing comic documentaries
These are two of my fav teams. My favorite Marvel team from 1963 to 96 version. And i loved early Doom Patrol and freedom fighters as my fav DC
Not to the best of my knowledge.
I agree with your conclusion...great video, i know im late..LOL
Great review.
Brother hood of evil/mutants.Strangest (teen) heroes.
As much as I love Kirby's art, whoever drew the Doom Patrol had an exquisitely clean and technical style. British maybe? Reminds me a bit of Brian Bolland in the 80s.
Bruno Premiani was the artist for the entire run. (Spelling might be off.) Anyway, he was from South America, if I remember correctly.
@@StrangeBrainParts Merci Beaucoup!
Some people said that X-Men are ripoff of doom patrol but the truth is doom patrol is ripoff fantastic four facts people?
And the FF is a ripoff of the JLA