I’ve been waiting for this one! Civil War is probably the biggest and most poorly thought out event of the 2000s. It had a very ambitious idea but not given more than a shred of creative drive or purpose aside from heroes turning on one another. Maybe this would have worked better had Mark Millar done this storyline with his Ultimates characters, considering he wrote them from the ground up and the world they inhabit would fit something like this. Putting this is the mainline just doesn’t work. Strange how much mainstream attention this event seems to get (aside from being the basis of the film) considering how frankly exploitative and needlessly violent it is but it sells surprisingly well even today so there you go.
Fascist Iron Man was a huge mistake. It made him one of the most hated characters in Marvel for several years. Mr. Fantastic sending people to the Negative Zone is just plain villainous. Iron Man would basically be a villain to other Marvel characters. But it raised his profile immensely, and the power he got from "winning" in Civil War kept him relevant for years. Although this relevance was basically him being a villain to other heroes.
I personally thought civil war event was a complete and utter mess and frankly this event was the catalyst to Spider-Man Peter parker and mary jane making deal with mephisto which was just garbage and infuriating at least in my opinion.
I think it’s important to acknowledge Steve McNiven’s contribution to the story. His character works makes the pretty shallow story feel impactful, and some of his compositions are masterful.
9:35-Did somebody have it in for the Speedball character?! I’ve maybe only read a couple of stories featuring the character, but somebody took a cheerful, upbeat hero and stuffed him into a masochist’s gimp suit! Is this somebody’s comment about where comics were or should be at at that time? I wonder…
One cool tie in issue from civil war was, I believe, new avengers num 27 which focused on luke cage and his response to the act. It really showed how good bendis is at writing Luke as a natural born rebel whos most comfortable speaking truth to power
I had that issue. It’s one of only a handful I actually thought was good. And really that’s mostly just credit to Bendis when he writes to his strengths.
But for real, there are so many concessions that had to be made for this event to make sense. Hulk is off in space. Thor is gone and a clone is left in his place. And the one that bothers me the most; there was an in-universe reason for the X-men not to get involved (M-day). Fewer mutants means they can't risk losing anymore people right now. But Emma Frost shoots down aiding anyone on the grounds that they're all bad allies to mutant-kind. Um, Emma? You do realize this is one step closer to mutant registration, right? You know, that thing that has been hanging over the heads of the X-men for decades at this point?
This is like the most overrated comic of all time Here's a top ten list of what all is wrong with it. 10. Late. Steve McNevin apparently had strep throat which why the last issue took 8 MONTHS to come out!!!!! 9. Continuity Nightmare outside the comic: My favorite was when the Human torch claimed he didn't even know who the New Warriors were even though he dated Namorita for like 25 issues of the Fantastic Four and his solo series. 8. Continuity Nightmare within its OWN story: Amazing Spiderman Road to Civil War was five issues of him and Stark mapping out the SHRA Civil War #1 shows him shocked to discover what was in the bill he helped write. 7. Character Assignations: So Reed Richards and Hank Pym's are just going to reanimate the corpse of their friend a couple months after he died huh? Also, don't get me started on the New Warriors. It's number 5, 6. Penance: Nobody gets to say anything about 90s comics being too generic, dark, and gritty as long as this MacFarlane abomination still exists. 5. Dumbest Inciting Incident ever: The entire lynchpin of the story was the New Warriors were too green and untrained to fight Nitro. Weird because they were literally trained by the Avengers, kind of created to be Marvel's answer to the Teen Titans, and took out a HERALD OF GALACTUS in their first issue! Hell 3 of the New Warriors were full-fledged members of the Avengers. Namorita was a member of the Fantastic Four. And Nova was a Guardian of the Galaxy. 4. Nothing will ever be the same...until the next issue: Aside from the New Warriors being made into a joke did this comic have any repercussions that lasted longer than a year. I guess Bill Foster is still dead. So way to go woke Marvel. The only lasting effect was you killed off one of your very few black superheroes. 3. It birthed Civil War 2: At least nobody thinks that one was good. 2. Everybody is fully committed to the extreme with no explanation as to why: Johnny Storm got jumped outside a night club so Sue Storm joins the resistance and practically divorces her husband. They create a Gitmo for Superheroes who resist. 1. Hundreds of Tie-ins for a twelve-page story.
Actually, I believed it was excessively late too! However, I did check the schedule and Civil War wasn't as late as you indicate. It was only two or three months late overall.
When Marvel Ultimate Alliance 2 adapted this story they cut some things out and added some unforeseen consequences to details from the original story. The Thor clone, Goliath's death, Spider-Man's public unmasking, and the Punisher bits are cut out and I think it works out for the better. I like that the threat that brings the heroes back together was created by their war because the nanite control system pulls a HAL 9000 and tries to control the world forcing the pro reg side to help the anti reg side to team up to stop it. There is still the issue of the negative zone prison and the fact that Maria Hill tried to arrest Cap for a law that wasn't passed yet but I can stomach it fine.
Civil War was incredibly ham-handed, but was still trying to speak to the current patriot act. The only title that seemed worth following at that point was Spider-Man written by J Michael Straczynski.
This was the first event comic I ever read, I think I only read the main civil war comics, I remember not knowing who half the characters in it were but I still liked it
I don't know how far you'll go but I thank you dearly for this series. You actually discuss about the events instead of doing a summary and commenting around it, and also you've given me a great "where to start" with Marvel and it's modern world so I don't need to actually read all of the 90's (almost did that) Also I hope you could make the same project with DC
Oh man, i would love a video series on the 4 million "crisis's" in DC. A friend, who is a massive DC fan, tried to explain it to me one night and several hours I just gave up.
I'm not going to lie, with DC events, I also get confused around Flashpoint. That being said, I will likely do a video series trying to make sense of the various Crises' too.
It's no surprise that the Civil War storyline was originally meant for the Ultimate Universe. Yeah...the big problem with Marvel, starting around Disassembled is that they tried to ape the tone & style of the Ultimate Universe comics. Especially with Bendis & Millar being the architects of this era.
Great video. I agree with you criticisms of this event. I was never a big fan since I found it was overwrought and shallow. The characterizations are awful too. Plus the reach of this event was felt for years. Annihlation which was around the same time was a way cooler event. Keep it up!
Now that you mention it, it is pretty meta that just like superheroes ended up being registered and in control of the government, the stories at marvel ended up even more under the control of a creative committee controlling and coordinating the stories of each character for the next event.
I think you are supposed to agree with Cap that terrorism surveillance has gone too far. But really, all the "heroes" really do act like terrorists so I guess the moral is pro surveillance state? Yuck, bad writing
I presume you haven't read Ultimates beside seeing that one panel of captain america. Maybe read that before spouting bullshit. That run puts 95% of the convoluted and dull regular marvel shit to shame.
just wanted to say that I remember watching your cerebus vid way back, stumbled on your channel again a few days ago and pretty much binged all of your vids. It's kinda nuts that you have a relatively low viewcount(it's still in the thousands mind you which means literally thousands of people watch your vids so be proud of that) considering the effort, quality writing and clean and appealing editing-style you have. You deserve more attention for sure, I don't read comics at all but love your vids as the stellar essays they are and they do make me want to get into the medium. Keep it up and I hope you keep growing both in audience and in skill!
Cootchie, cootchie. Thank you! This is the running theme of the channel. I parse it as being the the MOST successfully underrated comic book channel on UA-cam. :) This is the fourth year and all signs indicate that isn't likely to change. But I'll keep doing my thing and, hopefully, continually improve!
In all honesty, My opinion on this story has soured over the years with how poorly this was made. The MCU adaptation, hell, even the Ultimate Alliance 2 adaptation of this story was handled better than the source material.
Ngl, i personally feel like this event (i suppose in universe) was supposed to make Superheroics less of a game, but all it did was make it more of a game. Suddenly Reed Richards and Iron Man aren't just (pretty) flawed people who's principles could be bended should the need arise or if pushed, but now it just turned them into people pretty much no better than villains like Doctor Doom, at least you know Doctor Doom is a little deranged.
Interesting concept, meh execution (including the stereotypical offing of a Black character for weight and “tragedy”), ridiculously out of character characters - but great art - which saved the book.
God I hated the decade of grim shit that resulted from this mess of an event. This is why I can’t stand Quasada as an editor and am glad Mark “Writes Like a Well-Read 4Chan Troll” Millar’s mainstream following has mostly dissipated. I will gladly take any ‘90s brainrotting comic nonsense to what I was reading (and eventually gave up on) in the early to mid 2000s.
I don't think the Civil War affected one character or group of characters other than the New Warriors, who had a hard time being sold as anything other than "The idiotic teenagers who caused a large-scale conflict in the community of indirect superheroes" and never quite recovered of Civil War.
I never agreed with Reed Richards agreeing with the Super Hero Registration Act. During the original Acts of Vengeance crossover, a similar super hero registration act was going to get passed but Reed, with the FF, went to DC to fight it in congress.
I mean Civil War movie is better but not good by any means. Story wise rather then being onsided it does its best to be one of the the most unpolitical political story I've seen. The whole debate is a ploy by a villian as if it wasn't the movie would have to actually make commentary on either side which might offend someone anywhere.
Kinda like Logan imo (also written by Mark Millar, ironically). Though tbf, the movie Logan is rather different from Old Man Logan and isn't really based on the comic. Also Old Man Logan is a single storyline rather than a full on event.
I remember a lot of Marvel fans being disappointed in this storyline, for a few reasons. One is how so many people just weren't acting like themselves just to serve the purpose of this story. That one really got me. I stopped reading Marvel at this time. The ONLY highlight to this event for me was an Iron Man/Captain America one shot where the two meet up in the ruins of Avengers Mansion and try to work out their differences. They bring up a ton of past stories in the Marvel universe. Stuff like how Iron Man thinks the registration is a good idea because of the time of when Demon in a Bottle was going on and he nearly killed some by standards while suited up. Cap countering this by saying Tony has always done what he thought was right regardless of the law or anyone else, like in Armor Wars. It was SUCH a good issue. They finally just start punching each other as they get so worked up, but then both realize how ridiculous their own actions are and just leave, knowing things wont ever be the same again.
I honestly believe this is when Marvel Comics started going downhill, especially when it tired to be "realistic" and "relevant". Of course, I prefer fun superhero comics, so I'm kinda biased. At least the movie was good.
Civil War the comic was the height of dumb bombast. It makes no sense, you need to treat this as the Ultimate Universe and most tie-ins are worthless but hot damn is it fun. One of the few Non-X-men Marvel crossovers from the modern era I had fun with.
As someone who likes the ultimate universe... This event would've made more sense in that overall dark, often dumb, Michael bay-like, post 911 universe. I mean mark writes cap and shield like the government versions in the ultimate verse, which doesn't work in the 616.
It was written by Mark Millar. Although, it's plot came out of a Marvel summit and (apparently) had contributions from Bendis, Loeb and Whedon. Perhaps others.
Best Marvel Event Ever 👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾!!! I hate their current events 😒!!! It’s just non stop world ending this and that and by the next week ppl in the marvel universe themselves just move on or forget
One more random goofy observation: in our world, airplanes have license numbers, and are piloted by licensed pilots-I wondered about this quite a while ago: seems to me some regulation, at least for the flying superheroes, would have instituted already! But that’d disrupt the fantasy! Imagine Iron Man with an FAA license stuck on his armored sleeves and body!
I recall at least one instance wherein they contradicted themselves immediately. In a Spidey tie-in, Tony told Peter that people in the 42 lockup were there forever. We replay the same scene in the Civil War book proper, and now he is saying that they are only in there till they register. You publish these books, and you literally can't keep your story straight? You want the real sleaze of Civil War? Go to the tie-ins. I think many of the other writers weren't on board. In FF, Ben had his money seized by unnamed agents when he decided to sit out the conflict that had torn his family apart overseas. Simon Williams was pressed into service I think by Hill herself who actually came out and said that the 'voluntary' part of government service was not so much. The list goes on. In one of Spidey's books, Peter David bypassed the obvious and endless 'Villains Attack' after Peter unmasked and focused on the personal hurt his friends felt from his needed deception, even shutting down the BS Liz Allen Osborn had been laying on Peter for a while. Finally, to Mark Millar: We don't want these people uncontrolled, but on the other hand, we also have questions about those giving out the licenses. These aren't the militia-esque paranoid beliefs seen in the real world, but in the MU, the sovereign is corrupt. Their solution to nervous teens is to hunt them with giant metal robots. Legions of people have died trying to create and recreate the happy accident of Steve Rogers. It goes well beyond the very worst things the US government have done in real life, and even some of the worst RL accusations. Even given the few things that have leaked inside the MU, and how scared regular people are of metas, most would at least wonder about government control over those powers. Oh, and that scene with the first responders stopping Cap? Yeah, that was representing the 9/11 Memorial statue of them coming to life. Reeeaaal subtle.
Civil War is one of those stories that goes down in terms of effectiveness every time you read it, like some of the second tier M. Night Shyamalan movies. That said, I have to admit it blew me away on first read. And that art is on point.
7:39-I’m struck that Richards dealt with a _Civil-War_ -type of legislation in an early issue of Walt Simonson’s FF run-and if I recall correctly, it was done in a couple of issues with little muss or fuss! (I don’t do issue numbers well, but if I recall right, it was the FF issues that were linked with _The Acts of Vengeance_ storyline/crossover!)
I find it really hard ro believe that heroes who've fight during so much timw together as friends and family would be so eager to fight each orher to death. And even harder to believe tht the public opinion would be that much in favor of Iron Man, its like people forgot whow ere the heroes who saved them all this time. The story just doesnt work in a continuity that has been going on for so many decades.
I actually kind of loved Civil War. I got all the TPBs. Within it's own context, my biggest beef with it, was that you could feel the writer's heavy hand favoring the pro side through out the story. Not just because they won, but in how everything was portrayed. They were clearly the voice of reason, fascist as they were.
So, I take it you weren't satisfied with Civil War? :P It brings to mind the famous quote from Asimov's "Foundation:" "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent." Applying this to Civil War is interesting, even though applying it to superheroes in general is also...interesting, but in a different way. Worth noting are the similarities, and differences, between the comic and the Marvel movie. The movie didn't have a Superhero Registration Act; instead, it was about specifically making the Avengers a UN-controlled organization. Like the comics, it centered on the ideological differences between Iron Man and Captain America. Unlike the comics, it was better written and gave reasonably convincing arguments for both sides. Personally, I didn't like the movie, not because of its concept; but because it felt too contrived. The movie was basically written around that one scene of two groups of superheroes running towards each other. (I was afraid Avengers: Infinity War would be as contrived as this; but Infinity War turned out to have a much better focus on character development -- especially Thanos. But that's a subject for somewhere else.)
What i remember from this event, was every other writer taking the stance that you couldn't trust the government with that info and power. and tony getting his butt whooped. I really feel like this i where everyone either started saying "I personally don't like this continuity, or characterization. So i'm just going to change it or ignore it."
It will be World War Hulk then Secret Invasion. There may be breaks here and there to avoid burnout (even knowing about event fatigue doesn't prevent it from settling in) and to ensure some objectivity. That is, I don't want to start hating on events because, you know, I've read and written about a dozen and it seems like there's no end in sight. :)
@@StrangeBrainParts Thanks. Hope we get one next week, at the risk of sounding pathetic these videos give me something to look forward to each week now!
@Brent Andrew : Well, at the risk of sounding equally pathetic, if you and thousands like you didn't exist I might not try so hard to produce something weekly. :)
The sheer amount of tie ins and the useless nature of 80% of them coupled with the ABSOLUTLY NECESSARY status of a handful of tie ins tossed into the 100+ issues was so damaging to the industry. Reading through all the tie ins for Civil War made me take a break from comics for a few months. Tie ins kill a run. Separating them as specials is preferable. Then we go on to how essential tie ins are to the main plot of the event. Disassembled and House of M are just fine without reading any tie ins. Some events like Final Crisis or Dark Nights Metal have tie ins that should have been main issues, or they were signaled well enough to be understood as essential. Civil War really muddied the waters and set a terrible precedent to how tie ins integrate with the event.
I had come to read it very late after its release, so all I knew was that it was highly regarded by everyone and, of course, my expectations were high. And so was my disappointment XD. You just can't stand with Captain America because his motivations are BS, but Iron Man's alternative is just straight up fascism. No one makes a convincing point about anything and the story felt like Millar already had how it would turn out in his mind and forced the characters into it. The characterizations are way off, I'll never forget a joke Daredevil makes about his new identity, which was already weird and out of character on itself, but way much more considering it supposedly happens during Ed Brubaker's run, when Matt is in a hell of a low point of his life and overall grump (out of which he would only completely overcome when Mark Waid came in, around some good 6 years later). The art is neat, though.
great great analysis of story and especially character. Your analysis makes one/me realize what i now suspect to be true.. that if these writers were writing a novel and not just comic books, the points you make about how these characters react would be alot more thought out and fleshed out then they are here because after all it`s only comic books so why bother.Millar is supposed to be one of the greats but he hgas no respect for the medium in which he works :-(
Its in characteer for punisher to kill all criminals, especially villains immediately, for example in thunderbolts Frank shoots into the leader's head in the first instance
@@StrangeBrainParts I recommend the Superman stories that he worked on and they are actually good like his Adventures of Superman work, Red Son, and several Superboy issues
Would you believe I much prefer superhero comics to be simplistic and violent? I don't want resonance or context; I want good art, action and internal logic. My reason is because western superhero comics are cyclical, and everything can (and usually is) written out and retconned by the whims of writers of varying talent. And it's happened too many times that inferior writers come along later and discard important work done by their forebears. I can't bear getting attached anymore, having expectations. And I suppose this is where manga is superior, in that the same team tells one story forever. Sure having different creative teams can yield extraordinary results once in a while, but the threat of retcon and stunted internal logic is too great. And with manga, the artist always improves, often right before your eyes, plot beats are maintained, logic is generally maintained, and I find paradoxically that the creators somehow have a better relationship with fans than with western creators (this last bit may be cultural). And then of course there are issues of rights to characters and squabbles over royalties, objections as to how the characters are portrayed etc. Give me dumb, unpretentious superhero books which tell complete stories. Otherwise let stories be told by one creative team alone. I can't take the up and down anymore.
Except when manga drags on with filler arcs for decades. If you prefer manga then fine but manga (especially mainstream action stuff) drags its pace to hell with drawn out fights and repetitive arcs. Don't act like Dragon Ball's endless spin offs and sequels are any more "logical" DCU continuity.
@@FemboyCatGaming Well that could also be said of western superhero comics. I mean honestly I don't really read much mainstream manga. I read MHA, which I discovered before it was popular, I read One Punch Man (ditto), but of course purely for the lolz, I read Berserk, and that's about it. Everything else I read is pretty offbeat. I'm not saying all manga are better in all ways, but structurally, they do tend to be safer, and more consistent across the board. There's just no getting around the fact that art is at its worst when it's democratic, which I see western superhero comics to be; it's at its best when subject to the dictatorial rule of one creative team. The storytelling is decondensed, and events have the opportunity to unfold naturally, instead of exclusively via timeskips/reboot devices etc, for example. And you don't have this constant need to redefine the character according to editorial mandates, or according to your own ego. And speaking of ego, when there's one creative team you don't run the risk of some egotistical idiot one-trick-pony jackass like Tom King coming along and violating lore, misrepresenting characters etc. Or for example one of the worst abominations, Chuck Austen following great runs like Grant Morrison's. I mean if the guy is an idiot, then the manga goes to hell, but the free market should in principle take care of that, i.e. he's bound to lose sales and be dropped by his publisher. I'm not saying the western superhero format isn't without it's advantages, and I'm not saying all Japanese comics are better than western comics across the board. I'm referring specifically to ongoing structure and consistency.
The medium is wide enough to accept both. It's easy to cite Watchmen as one example of a "complex" comic book. On the other hand, good superhero fights are fun, too...when they're well written and drawn. Which brings to mind one silly comic that I dare say @Strange Brain Parts may remember: "DESTROY!!!!!!!: The Loudest Comic Book In The Universe."
@@castironchaos I don't know if what I meant to say was lost in the breadth of all that text but I don't disagree. There's lots of advantages of western superhero comics, not the least of which being the art itself. You'd hardly see an art style like that of One Piece (which I have no patience for) flying in western superhero comics. That kind of style is just (thankfully) not acceptable in this region. My issue is with the story format in the long term and it's being subject to whims and fancies, editorial mandates etc. rather than one or two creative minds. So many times in comics great, forward steps were supposed to take place, and then idiot editors didn't renew the writers' contract, and instead put the other guy, permanently affecting the lore. One case I can think of immediately is that of Madelyne Prior and the progression of the X-Men narrative in general. Or Joe Quesada's entire run as Editor in Chief of Marvel Comics for example. It happens too regularly, and increasingly so nowadays, with them just giving out writing assignments of big characters to just anybody.
Personally, I'd much rather have fun stories than depressing, grimdark BS. "Maybe it's just me... but I'm not crazy about super hero stories where everything's all dark and moody. Personally, I like the ones where good guys fight giant apes on the moon and stuff. Remember those?" -Squirrel Girl
Whenever Civil war comes up with my friends they all side on the idea that Civil war was a cooler idea than it actually was they never liked how shallow the over story was and wished it went further. I always tell them to shut up because this was some of the coolest shit marvel put out in a while. it was stupid edgy and mean for no reason at times but still so cool.
I mean yeah civil War Story really wasn't thought out as well but man it's so so well and me I also went inside every goddamn book and tie in and I could because it was just such an interesting thing because it was something that I would have never expected for the Marvel Universe to go down that route but then they did and it was like man I got to read everything about civil War I got almost every time I got a few of them I need to collect still but it's a guilty read to be honest but it is a hot mess of a story lol
NEXT BIGGEST EVENT!: Krakoa Mutants vs Humans! World War 3/Mutant! COMING THIS SUMMER! Spoiler... Scarlet Witch reverses everything w Time Travel. The End.
GOOD job on tha vid Strange Brain.This brings back strong memories for me,was recalled back to active duty army after being honorably discharged in June 2001,ended up doing 4 tours of duty to Iraq.Did second train-up for Iraq at Ft Hood,Tx with an aviation unit out of San Antonio,Tx,a national guard unit.FRESH MEAT!!! LOL.I was a part of 75 Div on Ft Hood that trained guard units for deployments to Iraq,this would be my 2nd straight tour to Iraq,had spent tha last year and a half with an infantry unit doing combat missions with tha Marines.Was stationed at Camp TQ,which was a Marine fob at that time-2nd Div Marines,which meant we worked for tha Marines and they never let us forget it either,LOL.If there is a HELL we were dumped right smack in tha middle with gasoline drawers on!!!! I t was HELL on earth!!! Now back to tha aviation unit,tha company that I was tasked with was full of comicbook fans,especially 2nd platoon,we' go to tha local comicshop outside tha front gate and buy comics on post.I really bonded with 2nd platoon because of common interests in comics I also bonded with folks of Charlie Co because of interests with Star Trek Tng.GO TREKKIES!!! LOL.These folks in tha guard where some GOOD FOLKS,they were like family to me,I cared about them and loved them.75 percent of tha brigade had never been on active duty before and it showed.But nobody ever complained about going to Iraq,they just got right to work!!! Which I really RESPECTED.We had a 5month train-up which is plenty of time to get to know people.We went to local clubs and bars together,also movies.I'm actually crying while typing this,haven't really talked about in years!!!! There were REAL people tasked to fight in Iraq,a lot of military people died there,some where my FRIENDS!!!! PLEASE don't forget them,I know I WON'T.
Civil War started the a trend in Marvel where everything felt too much like fed propaganda. I would give civil war slack if it played both sides well but the whole thing is so one sided on Tony and treats people concerned with the implications of anti-terrorism legislation as crazy loons too dangerous to be around. All that damage and harm caused by Tony and his military friends? That is nothing federally sponsored superheroes comitting war crimes in the middle east is awesome! Granted having it skew too far the other way also would have made for bad writing, but considering that stuff like patriot still hasn't been repealed and only expanded by each administration and with promise of more "anti-terrorism" legislation the whole story leaves such a bad taste in my mouth. As badly written as Ditko's essays were his essay, Toyland, on civil war is good conceptually. You can feel the rage in his writing at how marvel treated his characters as toys that need to smashed rather then moral heroes.
Tell us how you really feel 😅. In all seriousness, this is good assessment. It could've been so much more. While it was enjoyable mindless fun, it was unnervingly unsatisfying. This actual lead me, for the first time in my life, to look for comics with more depth, that could tell more complete stories.
I am really enjoying this series, and I eagerly await the next entry. I had pretty much stopped reading the Big 2 by the time this stuff came around, so I only know of it through the MCU movies
I as well. Around this time if I purchased anything from the comic shop it was either independently published graphic novels from artist/journalists like Joe Sacco, Harvey Pekar or Marjane Satrapi or European works. Comics became something I browzed or read right in the store, usually shaking my head in disappointment.
Fundamentally the position taken by each is in opposition to their basic character. I don't know what you're talking about saying Iron Man is more likely to approve of controls. Cap is the patriot who believes in government hierarchy and chain of command, and is far more likely to blindly accept orders. Iron Man is much more likely to value his rights as an individual. This weird juxtaposition makes the premise nonsense from the start.
Not really Captain is loyal to nothing but the dream Why do you think he goes to odd to the government when they try to rend him in to their agenda their been runs that had him be against them and their decision While Tony Stark is fundamentally been know as a control freak to confiscate his guilt
Captain America has been shown to shoot down orders he disagreed with, even quitting when necessary. He doesn't just accept "government heirarchy" that statement shows a fundamental misunderstanding of who Steve is. Iron Man is a defense contractor. He wouldn't see anything wrong with regulations, controls etc. He's used to it. He used to sell bombs.
It probably has to do with relationship the american nation/people have with the american goverment. In my non-american eyes, in the "liberty of the individual vs authority of the goverment" arguement americans have always been more prone to the former so it would make sense for Captain America to be the one against the goverment in this case. You add in the mix the military industrial complex that Iron Man usually represents as a character and then it kinda makes sense. Having said that, looking for consistent context is a bit of a hopeliess endeavour. As in every blockbuster, there is just a pastiche of familiar concepts that you can project your own beliefs/viewpoints on.
Man, this Civil War was the GOOD one. You took a hatchet to it magnificently. Can't wait to see you review: CW2: Marvel's Minority Report or Trump Derangement Sydrome meets Marvel, ie Secret Empire.
I particularly loved when Hill tried to arrest Cap for breaking a law that didn't exist yet.
Better safe than sorry
T Jex. Better be stupid than smart
Thank for justifying everything Captain America was saying Hill
Or, for that matter, for ignoring a command she hadn't given.
I’ve been waiting for this one! Civil War is probably the biggest and most poorly thought out event of the 2000s. It had a very ambitious idea but not given more than a shred of creative drive or purpose aside from heroes turning on one another. Maybe this would have worked better had Mark Millar done this storyline with his Ultimates characters, considering he wrote them from the ground up and the world they inhabit would fit something like this. Putting this is the mainline just doesn’t work. Strange how much mainstream attention this event seems to get (aside from being the basis of the film) considering how frankly exploitative and needlessly violent it is but it sells surprisingly well even today so there you go.
The writing wasn’t great, and most characters acted completely unlike themselves. But MAN that mcniven art!
Writing not being great and the story being only empathised by the artist is the summary of most of Millar's comic in later years
Agree
Fascist Iron Man was a huge mistake. It made him one of the most hated characters in Marvel for several years. Mr. Fantastic sending people to the Negative Zone is just plain villainous.
Iron Man would basically be a villain to other Marvel characters. But it raised his profile immensely, and the power he got from "winning" in Civil War kept him relevant for years. Although this relevance was basically him being a villain to other heroes.
This was the same character who took the law into his own hands in the first "Armor Wars."
And that power lead to Norman's Dark Reign. Is a good thing in the end because you see the law being use and abuse by good and bad guys.
I think millar understands that a fascist Ironman is wrong and uses that character to explore why good people can horrible decession
I personally thought civil war event was a complete and utter mess and frankly this event was the catalyst to Spider-Man Peter parker and mary jane making deal with mephisto which was just garbage and infuriating at least in my opinion.
I think it’s important to acknowledge Steve McNiven’s contribution to the story. His character works makes the pretty shallow story feel impactful, and some of his compositions are masterful.
I agree. Very good point.
9:35-Did somebody have it in for the Speedball character?! I’ve maybe only read a couple of stories featuring the character, but somebody took a cheerful, upbeat hero and stuffed him into a masochist’s gimp suit! Is this somebody’s comment about where comics were or should be at at that time? I wonder…
One cool tie in issue from civil war was, I believe, new avengers num 27 which focused on luke cage and his response to the act. It really showed how good bendis is at writing Luke as a natural born rebel whos most comfortable speaking truth to power
I had that issue. It’s one of only a handful I actually thought was good. And really that’s mostly just credit to Bendis when he writes to his strengths.
Metaphor and subtlety aren't exactly Millar trademarks.
World War Hulk sure was cathartic.
But for real, there are so many concessions that had to be made for this event to make sense.
Hulk is off in space.
Thor is gone and a clone is left in his place.
And the one that bothers me the most; there was an in-universe reason for the X-men not to get involved (M-day). Fewer mutants means they can't risk losing anymore people right now.
But Emma Frost shoots down aiding anyone on the grounds that they're all bad allies to mutant-kind. Um, Emma? You do realize this is one step closer to mutant registration, right? You know, that thing that has been hanging over the heads of the X-men for decades at this point?
This is like the most overrated comic of all time Here's a top ten list of what all is wrong with it.
10. Late. Steve McNevin apparently had strep throat which why the last issue took 8 MONTHS to come out!!!!!
9. Continuity Nightmare outside the comic: My favorite was when the Human torch claimed he didn't even know who the New Warriors were even though he dated Namorita for like 25 issues of the Fantastic Four and his solo series.
8. Continuity Nightmare within its OWN story: Amazing Spiderman Road to Civil War was five issues of him and Stark mapping out the SHRA Civil War #1 shows him shocked to discover what was in the bill he helped write.
7. Character Assignations: So Reed Richards and Hank Pym's are just going to reanimate the corpse of their friend a couple months after he died huh? Also, don't get me started on the New Warriors. It's number 5,
6. Penance: Nobody gets to say anything about 90s comics being too generic, dark, and gritty as long as this MacFarlane abomination still exists.
5. Dumbest Inciting Incident ever: The entire lynchpin of the story was the New Warriors were too green and untrained to fight Nitro. Weird because they were literally trained by the Avengers, kind of created to be Marvel's answer to the Teen Titans, and took out a HERALD OF GALACTUS in their first issue! Hell 3 of the New Warriors were full-fledged members of the Avengers. Namorita was a member of the Fantastic Four. And Nova was a Guardian of the Galaxy.
4. Nothing will ever be the same...until the next issue: Aside from the New Warriors being made into a joke did this comic have any repercussions that lasted longer than a year. I guess Bill Foster is still dead. So way to go woke Marvel. The only lasting effect was you killed off one of your very few black superheroes.
3. It birthed Civil War 2: At least nobody thinks that one was good.
2. Everybody is fully committed to the extreme with no explanation as to why: Johnny Storm got jumped outside a night club so Sue Storm joins the resistance and practically divorces her husband. They create a Gitmo for Superheroes who resist.
1. Hundreds of Tie-ins for a twelve-page story.
Actually, I believed it was excessively late too! However, I did check the schedule and Civil War wasn't as late as you indicate. It was only two or three months late overall.
@@StrangeBrainParts I stand corrected. I think I had it confused with Joss Whedon's runaways
@Steve McElroy : I remembered significant delays, too. Which is why I tend to fact-check my memory. It can play tricks. :)
Screw this comic. Seriously.
I really did not like Civil War. The concept is not bad, but other than that I thought it sucked.
When Marvel Ultimate Alliance 2 adapted this story they cut some things out and added some unforeseen consequences to details from the original story. The Thor clone, Goliath's death, Spider-Man's public unmasking, and the Punisher bits are cut out and I think it works out for the better. I like that the threat that brings the heroes back together was created by their war because the nanite control system pulls a HAL 9000 and tries to control the world forcing the pro reg side to help the anti reg side to team up to stop it. There is still the issue of the negative zone prison and the fact that Maria Hill tried to arrest Cap for a law that wasn't passed yet but I can stomach it fine.
that "accidentally sublime" line is very well articulated.
In summary, Mark Millar.
Fuck Yeah.
I found it extremely pessimistic and completely one sided biased argument that didn’t aged well when read in hindsight
I disagree. It was godawful when read at the time too.
>Says its wrong
>Refuses to elaborate further
>Literally disappears
Civil War is literally “gaslit the series” cause a lot of the important stuff happens in tie-ins and they don’t get transferred to the main series
Civil War was incredibly ham-handed, but was still trying to speak to the current patriot act. The only title that seemed worth following at that point was Spider-Man written by J Michael Straczynski.
This was the first event comic I ever read, I think I only read the main civil war comics, I remember not knowing who half the characters in it were but I still liked it
I don't know how far you'll go but I thank you dearly for this series. You actually discuss about the events instead of doing a summary and commenting around it, and also you've given me a great "where to start" with Marvel and it's modern world so I don't need to actually read all of the 90's (almost did that)
Also I hope you could make the same project with DC
Oh man, i would love a video series on the 4 million "crisis's" in DC. A friend, who is a massive DC fan, tried to explain it to me one night and several hours I just gave up.
I'm not going to lie, with DC events, I also get confused around Flashpoint. That being said, I will likely do a video series trying to make sense of the various Crises' too.
It's no surprise that the Civil War storyline was originally meant for the Ultimate Universe.
Yeah...the big problem with Marvel, starting around Disassembled is that they tried to ape the tone & style of the Ultimate Universe comics. Especially with Bendis & Millar being the architects of this era.
Great video. I agree with you criticisms of this event. I was never a big fan since I found it was overwrought and shallow. The characterizations are awful too. Plus the reach of this event was felt for years. Annihlation which was around the same time was a way cooler event. Keep it up!
Now that you mention it, it is pretty meta that just like superheroes ended up being registered and in control of the government, the stories at marvel ended up even more under the control of a creative committee controlling and coordinating the stories of each character for the next event.
Funny coincidence, right? :)
I think you are supposed to agree with Cap that terrorism surveillance has gone too far. But really, all the "heroes" really do act like terrorists so I guess the moral is pro surveillance state?
Yuck, bad writing
Ah, “nonsensical and edgy”, right up Millar’s alley
I presume you haven't read Ultimates beside seeing that one panel of captain america. Maybe read that before spouting bullshit. That run puts 95% of the convoluted and dull regular marvel shit to shame.
@@terskatti4994 Oh ive read the ultimates. Its not nonsensical cuz the chracters are original but damn its edgy and childish as fuck.
just wanted to say that I remember watching your cerebus vid way back, stumbled on your channel again a few days ago and pretty much binged all of your vids.
It's kinda nuts that you have a relatively low viewcount(it's still in the thousands mind you which means literally thousands of people watch your vids so be proud of that) considering the effort, quality writing and clean and appealing editing-style you have.
You deserve more attention for sure, I don't read comics at all but love your vids as the stellar essays they are and they do make me want to get into the medium.
Keep it up and I hope you keep growing both in audience and in skill!
Cootchie, cootchie. Thank you! This is the running theme of the channel. I parse it as being the the MOST successfully underrated comic book channel on UA-cam. :) This is the fourth year and all signs indicate that isn't likely to change. But I'll keep doing my thing and, hopefully, continually improve!
When you try to imitate Kingdom Come but lack any substance.
In all honesty, My opinion on this story has soured over the years with how poorly this was made. The MCU adaptation, hell, even the Ultimate Alliance 2 adaptation of this story was handled better than the source material.
Ngl, i personally feel like this event (i suppose in universe) was supposed to make Superheroics less of a game, but all it did was make it more of a game.
Suddenly Reed Richards and Iron Man aren't just (pretty) flawed people who's principles could be bended should the need arise or if pushed, but now it just turned them into people pretty much no better than villains like Doctor Doom, at least you know Doctor Doom is a little deranged.
Also some of Mark Millar dialogue choices have aged poorly.
Interesting concept, meh execution (including the stereotypical offing of a Black character for weight and “tragedy”), ridiculously out of character characters - but great art - which saved the book.
my favourite event for what it is and how it shapes the marvel universe status quo into a darker (dark reign) era with more stakes than ever
How the hell was this storyline a success?
God I hated the decade of grim shit that resulted from this mess of an event. This is why I can’t stand Quasada as an editor and am glad Mark “Writes Like a Well-Read 4Chan Troll” Millar’s mainstream following has mostly dissipated.
I will gladly take any ‘90s brainrotting comic nonsense to what I was reading (and eventually gave up on) in the early to mid 2000s.
Best thing that came from civil war was cap and ironmans absurd fighting as the universe ends in hickmans avengers
I don't think the Civil War affected one character or group of characters other than the New Warriors, who had a hard time being sold as anything other than "The idiotic teenagers who caused a large-scale conflict in the community of indirect superheroes" and never quite recovered of Civil War.
I never agreed with Reed Richards agreeing with the Super Hero Registration Act. During the original Acts of Vengeance crossover, a similar super hero registration act was going to get passed but Reed, with the FF, went to DC to fight it in congress.
An event that got adapted into a much better movie (let's be real here)
Nah. That film is even dumber and has horrible politics. Avengers 4 and says that Tony was right and most of the stuff he lobbied for sticks. Uff.
I mean Civil War movie is better but not good by any means. Story wise rather then being onsided it does its best to be one of the the most unpolitical political story I've seen. The whole debate is a ploy by a villian as if it wasn't the movie would have to actually make commentary on either side which might offend someone anywhere.
@Immak Oh no I can't believe hydra made racisms
Kinda like Logan imo (also written by Mark Millar, ironically).
Though tbf, the movie Logan is rather different from Old Man Logan and isn't really based on the comic. Also Old Man Logan is a single storyline rather than a full on event.
I mean, most movies based on Mark Millar's media are like that, cept many of them are more loosely based on a comic.
I remember a lot of Marvel fans being disappointed in this storyline, for a few reasons. One is how so many people just weren't acting like themselves just to serve the purpose of this story. That one really got me. I stopped reading Marvel at this time.
The ONLY highlight to this event for me was an Iron Man/Captain America one shot where the two meet up in the ruins of Avengers Mansion and try to work out their differences. They bring up a ton of past stories in the Marvel universe. Stuff like how Iron Man thinks the registration is a good idea because of the time of when Demon in a Bottle was going on and he nearly killed some by standards while suited up. Cap countering this by saying Tony has always done what he thought was right regardless of the law or anyone else, like in Armor Wars. It was SUCH a good issue. They finally just start punching each other as they get so worked up, but then both realize how ridiculous their own actions are and just leave, knowing things wont ever be the same again.
It's crazy how the villain prison in the negative zone didn't constitute a full villain turn for Mr. Fantastic and Iron Man
I honestly believe this is when Marvel Comics started going downhill, especially when it tired to be "realistic" and "relevant".
Of course, I prefer fun superhero comics, so I'm kinda biased.
At least the movie was good.
It seems like Tony is kind of set up as a strawman, with a lot of the shallow plot full of contrivances and out of character actions.
Civil War the comic was the height of dumb bombast. It makes no sense, you need to treat this as the Ultimate Universe and most tie-ins are worthless but hot damn is it fun. One of the few Non-X-men Marvel crossovers from the modern era I had fun with.
As someone who likes the ultimate universe... This event would've made more sense in that overall dark, often dumb, Michael bay-like, post 911 universe.
I mean mark writes cap and shield like the government versions in the ultimate verse, which doesn't work in the 616.
Civil War us so much more than the main issues....
I remember reading this comic, it was mostly good, tbh. I only read the main story, Amazing Spider-man and New Avengers tie-ins.
Until next Time ! ✊🏾
This was just about the last marvel event i got into or brought the hype for in any way.
Typical Mark Millar.
This was written by bendis
@@jojomojofofo No. No, it wasn't.
It was written by Mark Millar. Although, it's plot came out of a Marvel summit and (apparently) had contributions from Bendis, Loeb and Whedon. Perhaps others.
I just checked the wiki. My bad.
@@StrangeBrainParts hey can do this type of analysis for DC events as well?
This is Miller at his finest
I remember the "who's side are you on?" pics you could put on your page. mine was "I'm with Captain America" because he was right
Best Marvel Event Ever 👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾!!! I hate their current events 😒!!! It’s just non stop world ending this and that and by the next week ppl in the marvel universe themselves just move on or forget
Great series! Looking forward to it continuing!
This is a great series. I don't know much about Marvel, so this is filling in a lot of blanks.
One more random goofy observation: in our world, airplanes have license numbers, and are piloted by licensed pilots-I wondered about this quite a while ago: seems to me some regulation, at least for the flying superheroes, would have instituted already! But that’d disrupt the fantasy! Imagine Iron Man with an FAA license stuck on his armored sleeves and body!
Frontline is so...so bad. Arguably the worst Captain America characterization ever.
I recall at least one instance wherein they contradicted themselves immediately. In a Spidey tie-in, Tony told Peter that people in the 42 lockup were there forever. We replay the same scene in the Civil War book proper, and now he is saying that they are only in there till they register. You publish these books, and you literally can't keep your story straight?
You want the real sleaze of Civil War? Go to the tie-ins. I think many of the other writers weren't on board. In FF, Ben had his money seized by unnamed agents when he decided to sit out the conflict that had torn his family apart overseas. Simon Williams was pressed into service I think by Hill herself who actually came out and said that the 'voluntary' part of government service was not so much. The list goes on. In one of Spidey's books, Peter David bypassed the obvious and endless 'Villains Attack' after Peter unmasked and focused on the personal hurt his friends felt from his needed deception, even shutting down the BS Liz Allen Osborn had been laying on Peter for a while.
Finally, to Mark Millar: We don't want these people uncontrolled, but on the other hand, we also have questions about those giving out the licenses. These aren't the militia-esque paranoid beliefs seen in the real world, but in the MU, the sovereign is corrupt. Their solution to nervous teens is to hunt them with giant metal robots. Legions of people have died trying to create and recreate the happy accident of Steve Rogers. It goes well beyond the very worst things the US government have done in real life, and even some of the worst RL accusations. Even given the few things that have leaked inside the MU, and how scared regular people are of metas, most would at least wonder about government control over those powers. Oh, and that scene with the first responders stopping Cap? Yeah, that was representing the 9/11 Memorial statue of them coming to life. Reeeaaal subtle.
Civil War is one of those stories that goes down in terms of effectiveness every time you read it, like some of the second tier M. Night Shyamalan movies. That said, I have to admit it blew me away on first read. And that art is on point.
7:39-I’m struck that Richards dealt with a _Civil-War_ -type of legislation in an early issue of Walt Simonson’s FF run-and if I recall correctly, it was done in a couple of issues with little muss or fuss!
(I don’t do issue numbers well, but if I recall right, it was the FF issues that were linked with _The Acts of Vengeance_ storyline/crossover!)
I'd absolutely love to hear what your thoughts are on DC's Injustice comics
Civil War is a bad story...... that had an interesting impact on the Marvel universe I kinda like.
It’s Mark Millar writing. Off course it’s not making sense.
I find it really hard ro believe that heroes who've fight during so much timw together as friends and family would be so eager to fight each orher to death.
And even harder to believe tht the public opinion would be that much in favor of Iron Man, its like people forgot whow ere the heroes who saved them all this time.
The story just doesnt work in a continuity that has been going on for so many decades.
I actually kind of loved Civil War. I got all the TPBs. Within it's own context, my biggest beef with it, was that you could feel the writer's heavy hand favoring the pro side through out the story. Not just because they won, but in how everything was portrayed. They were clearly the voice of reason, fascist as they were.
The biggest question is why the hell did they make them facist at all?
CW gets ton of crap but compared to the DC Comics big event at the time (Identity Crisis) it's almost good.
So, I take it you weren't satisfied with Civil War? :P It brings to mind the famous quote from Asimov's "Foundation:" "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent." Applying this to Civil War is interesting, even though applying it to superheroes in general is also...interesting, but in a different way.
Worth noting are the similarities, and differences, between the comic and the Marvel movie. The movie didn't have a Superhero Registration Act; instead, it was about specifically making the Avengers a UN-controlled organization. Like the comics, it centered on the ideological differences between Iron Man and Captain America. Unlike the comics, it was better written and gave reasonably convincing arguments for both sides. Personally, I didn't like the movie, not because of its concept; but because it felt too contrived. The movie was basically written around that one scene of two groups of superheroes running towards each other. (I was afraid Avengers: Infinity War would be as contrived as this; but Infinity War turned out to have a much better focus on character development -- especially Thanos. But that's a subject for somewhere else.)
What i remember from this event, was every other writer taking the stance that you couldn't trust the government with that info and power. and tony getting his butt whooped. I really feel like this i where everyone either started saying "I personally don't like this continuity, or characterization. So i'm just going to change it or ignore it."
I think civil war is a great idea and one that could make for great story telling, the comic and movie don't do it justice
Hey, what can one say...? That's comics for you. In a fantasy world, expect fantastical shit to take place. Great vid. as usual.
Marvel universe is so fucked at this point.
What's next, World War Hulk or straight on to Secret Invasion? Will they be coming every week until you get to the last one?
It will be World War Hulk then Secret Invasion. There may be breaks here and there to avoid burnout (even knowing about event fatigue doesn't prevent it from settling in) and to ensure some objectivity. That is, I don't want to start hating on events because, you know, I've read and written about a dozen and it seems like there's no end in sight. :)
@@StrangeBrainParts Thanks. Hope we get one next week, at the risk of sounding pathetic these videos give me something to look forward to each week now!
@Brent Andrew : Well, at the risk of sounding equally pathetic, if you and thousands like you didn't exist I might not try so hard to produce something weekly. :)
The sheer amount of tie ins and the useless nature of 80% of them coupled with the ABSOLUTLY NECESSARY status of a handful of tie ins tossed into the 100+ issues was so damaging to the industry. Reading through all the tie ins for Civil War made me take a break from comics for a few months.
Tie ins kill a run. Separating them as specials is preferable. Then we go on to how essential tie ins are to the main plot of the event. Disassembled and House of M are just fine without reading any tie ins. Some events like Final Crisis or Dark Nights Metal have tie ins that should have been main issues, or they were signaled well enough to be understood as essential. Civil War really muddied the waters and set a terrible precedent to how tie ins integrate with the event.
I had come to read it very late after its release, so all I knew was that it was highly regarded by everyone and, of course, my expectations were high. And so was my disappointment XD. You just can't stand with Captain America because his motivations are BS, but Iron Man's alternative is just straight up fascism. No one makes a convincing point about anything and the story felt like Millar already had how it would turn out in his mind and forced the characters into it. The characterizations are way off, I'll never forget a joke Daredevil makes about his new identity, which was already weird and out of character on itself, but way much more considering it supposedly happens during Ed Brubaker's run, when Matt is in a hell of a low point of his life and overall grump (out of which he would only completely overcome when Mark Waid came in, around some good 6 years later). The art is neat, though.
great great analysis of story and especially character. Your analysis makes one/me realize what i now suspect to be true.. that if these writers were writing a novel and not just comic books, the points you make about how these characters react would be alot more thought out and fleshed out then they are here because after all it`s only comic books so why bother.Millar is supposed to be one of the greats but he hgas no respect for the medium in which he works :-(
I really liked this series of videos but, there hasn't been another one of these event reviews in like a year.
I guess my man got event fatigue.
Maybe stay tuned? :)
Its in characteer for punisher to kill all criminals, especially villains immediately, for example in thunderbolts Frank shoots into the leader's head in the first instance
Thank you for this. Now I don't have to trouble myself with actually reading it.
What're your thoughts on Mark Millar's other work?
I am on record as stating that Mr. Millar is my least favourite writer working in the medium.
@@StrangeBrainParts
what's your favorite work by him?
@@StrangeBrainParts but isn't Old Man Logan so
E D G Y
@Dante Crottogini : Sincerely, I can't think of one piece that I enjoyed.
@@StrangeBrainParts I recommend the Superman stories that he worked on and they are actually good like his Adventures of Superman work, Red Son, and several Superboy issues
Would you believe I much prefer superhero comics to be simplistic and violent? I don't want resonance or context; I want good art, action and internal logic. My reason is because western superhero comics are cyclical, and everything can (and usually is) written out and retconned by the whims of writers of varying talent. And it's happened too many times that inferior writers come along later and discard important work done by their forebears. I can't bear getting attached anymore, having expectations. And I suppose this is where manga is superior, in that the same team tells one story forever. Sure having different creative teams can yield extraordinary results once in a while, but the threat of retcon and stunted internal logic is too great. And with manga, the artist always improves, often right before your eyes, plot beats are maintained, logic is generally maintained, and I find paradoxically that the creators somehow have a better relationship with fans than with western creators (this last bit may be cultural). And then of course there are issues of rights to characters and squabbles over royalties, objections as to how the characters are portrayed etc. Give me dumb, unpretentious superhero books which tell complete stories. Otherwise let stories be told by one creative team alone. I can't take the up and down anymore.
Except when manga drags on with filler arcs for decades. If you prefer manga then fine but manga (especially mainstream action stuff) drags its pace to hell with drawn out fights and repetitive arcs. Don't act like Dragon Ball's endless spin offs and sequels are any more "logical" DCU continuity.
@@FemboyCatGaming Well that could also be said of western superhero comics. I mean honestly I don't really read much mainstream manga. I read MHA, which I discovered before it was popular, I read One Punch Man (ditto), but of course purely for the lolz, I read Berserk, and that's about it. Everything else I read is pretty offbeat. I'm not saying all manga are better in all ways, but structurally, they do tend to be safer, and more consistent across the board. There's just no getting around the fact that art is at its worst when it's democratic, which I see western superhero comics to be; it's at its best when subject to the dictatorial rule of one creative team. The storytelling is decondensed, and events have the opportunity to unfold naturally, instead of exclusively via timeskips/reboot devices etc, for example. And you don't have this constant need to redefine the character according to editorial mandates, or according to your own ego. And speaking of ego, when there's one creative team you don't run the risk of some egotistical idiot one-trick-pony jackass like Tom King coming along and violating lore, misrepresenting characters etc. Or for example one of the worst abominations, Chuck Austen following great runs like Grant Morrison's. I mean if the guy is an idiot, then the manga goes to hell, but the free market should in principle take care of that, i.e. he's bound to lose sales and be dropped by his publisher. I'm not saying the western superhero format isn't without it's advantages, and I'm not saying all Japanese comics are better than western comics across the board. I'm referring specifically to ongoing structure and consistency.
The medium is wide enough to accept both. It's easy to cite Watchmen as one example of a "complex" comic book. On the other hand, good superhero fights are fun, too...when they're well written and drawn. Which brings to mind one silly comic that I dare say @Strange Brain Parts may remember: "DESTROY!!!!!!!: The Loudest Comic Book In The Universe."
@@castironchaos I don't know if what I meant to say was lost in the breadth of all that text but I don't disagree. There's lots of advantages of western superhero comics, not the least of which being the art itself. You'd hardly see an art style like that of One Piece (which I have no patience for) flying in western superhero comics. That kind of style is just (thankfully) not acceptable in this region. My issue is with the story format in the long term and it's being subject to whims and fancies, editorial mandates etc. rather than one or two creative minds. So many times in comics great, forward steps were supposed to take place, and then idiot editors didn't renew the writers' contract, and instead put the other guy, permanently affecting the lore. One case I can think of immediately is that of Madelyne Prior and the progression of the X-Men narrative in general. Or Joe Quesada's entire run as Editor in Chief of Marvel Comics for example. It happens too regularly, and increasingly so nowadays, with them just giving out writing assignments of big characters to just anybody.
Personally, I'd much rather have fun stories than depressing, grimdark BS.
"Maybe it's just me... but I'm not crazy about super hero stories where everything's all dark and moody. Personally, I like the ones where good guys fight giant apes on the moon and stuff. Remember those?"
-Squirrel Girl
Whenever Civil war comes up with my friends they all side on the idea that Civil war was a cooler idea than it actually was
they never liked how shallow the over story was and wished it went further. I always tell them to shut up because this was some of the coolest shit marvel put out in a while. it was stupid edgy and mean for no reason at times but still so cool.
I agree. I love the event and how it changed the status quo of the marvel universe
I mean yeah civil War Story really wasn't thought out as well but man it's so so well and me I also went inside every goddamn book and tie in and I could because it was just such an interesting thing because it was something that I would have never expected for the Marvel Universe to go down that route but then they did and it was like man I got to read everything about civil War I got almost every time I got a few of them I need to collect still but it's a guilty read to be honest but it is a hot mess of a story lol
NEXT BIGGEST EVENT!:
Krakoa Mutants vs Humans! World War 3/Mutant!
COMING THIS SUMMER!
Spoiler... Scarlet Witch reverses everything w Time Travel. The End.
In the end, I'm going to go with Machine Man's critique of the writing quality from the cover of Nextwave #11.
GOOD job on tha vid Strange Brain.This brings back strong memories for me,was recalled back to active duty army after being honorably discharged in June 2001,ended up doing 4 tours of duty to Iraq.Did second train-up for Iraq at Ft Hood,Tx with an aviation unit out of San Antonio,Tx,a national guard unit.FRESH MEAT!!! LOL.I was a part of 75 Div on Ft Hood that trained guard units for deployments to Iraq,this would be my 2nd straight tour to Iraq,had spent tha last year and a half with an infantry unit doing combat missions with tha Marines.Was stationed at Camp TQ,which was a Marine fob at that time-2nd Div Marines,which meant we worked for tha Marines and they never let us forget it either,LOL.If there is a HELL we were dumped right smack in tha middle with gasoline drawers on!!!! I t was HELL on earth!!! Now back to tha aviation unit,tha company that I was tasked with was full of comicbook fans,especially 2nd platoon,we' go to tha local comicshop outside tha front gate and buy comics on post.I really bonded with 2nd platoon because of common interests in comics I also bonded with folks of Charlie Co because of interests with Star Trek Tng.GO TREKKIES!!! LOL.These folks in tha guard where some GOOD FOLKS,they were like family to me,I cared about them and loved them.75 percent of tha brigade had never been on active duty before and it showed.But nobody ever complained about going to Iraq,they just got right to work!!! Which I really RESPECTED.We had a 5month train-up which is plenty of time to get to know people.We went to local clubs and bars together,also movies.I'm actually crying while typing this,haven't really talked about in years!!!! There were REAL people tasked to fight in Iraq,a lot of military people died there,some where my FRIENDS!!!! PLEASE don't forget them,I know I WON'T.
Civil War started the a trend in Marvel where everything felt too much like fed propaganda. I would give civil war slack if it played both sides well but the whole thing is so one sided on Tony and treats people concerned with the implications of anti-terrorism legislation as crazy loons too dangerous to be around. All that damage and harm caused by Tony and his military friends? That is nothing federally sponsored superheroes comitting war crimes in the middle east is awesome! Granted having it skew too far the other way also would have made for bad writing, but considering that stuff like patriot still hasn't been repealed and only expanded by each administration and with promise of more "anti-terrorism" legislation the whole story leaves such a bad taste in my mouth.
As badly written as Ditko's essays were his essay, Toyland, on civil war is good conceptually. You can feel the rage in his writing at how marvel treated his characters as toys that need to smashed rather then moral heroes.
Tell us how you really feel 😅. In all seriousness, this is good assessment. It could've been so much more. While it was enjoyable mindless fun, it was unnervingly unsatisfying. This actual lead me, for the first time in my life, to look for comics with more depth, that could tell more complete stories.
I am really enjoying this series, and I eagerly await the next entry. I had pretty much stopped reading the Big 2 by the time this stuff came around, so I only know of it through the MCU movies
I as well. Around this time if I purchased anything from the comic shop it was either independently published graphic novels from artist/journalists like Joe Sacco, Harvey Pekar or Marjane Satrapi or European works. Comics became something I browzed or read right in the store, usually shaking my head in disappointment.
Awesome
Hey new video
More substance than the film, tfs.
Fundamentally the position taken by each is in opposition to their basic character. I don't know what you're talking about saying Iron Man is more likely to approve of controls. Cap is the patriot who believes in government hierarchy and chain of command, and is far more likely to blindly accept orders. Iron Man is much more likely to value his rights as an individual. This weird juxtaposition makes the premise nonsense from the start.
Not really Captain is loyal to nothing but the dream
Why do you think he goes to odd to the government when they try to rend him in to their agenda their been runs that had him be against them and their decision
While Tony Stark is fundamentally been know as a control freak to confiscate his guilt
You are not wrong.
Captain America has been shown to shoot down orders he disagreed with, even quitting when necessary. He doesn't just accept "government heirarchy" that statement shows a fundamental misunderstanding of who Steve is.
Iron Man is a defense contractor. He wouldn't see anything wrong with regulations, controls etc. He's used to it. He used to sell bombs.
It probably has to do with relationship the american nation/people have with the american goverment. In my non-american eyes, in the "liberty of the individual vs authority of the goverment" arguement americans have always been more prone to the former so it would make sense for Captain America to be the one against the goverment in this case. You add in the mix the military industrial complex that Iron Man usually represents as a character and then it kinda makes sense. Having said that, looking for consistent context is a bit of a hopeliess endeavour. As in every blockbuster, there is just a pastiche of familiar concepts that you can project your own beliefs/viewpoints on.
Man, this Civil War was the GOOD one. You took a hatchet to it magnificently. Can't wait to see you review: CW2: Marvel's Minority Report or Trump Derangement Sydrome meets Marvel, ie Secret Empire.