You could have said you wanted to run steam trains on the line powered by burning money and it wouldn't be as bad as some. Though it was also a good proposal in its own right. 👍
@@zman1508 I know. And for saving Dapto, perhaps Koalaman could save the Dapto area by electrifying the line down there from Kiama all the way to Nowra, actually building the bridge. That would make the trip to Centrelink better ;
The standard run for the DMU’s was all the way to Newcastle from Toronto. The line wasn’t electrified due to the extra current that would have been required to power the branch line.
@@gregessex1851 I thought it was mostly the first and last runs of the day that went north from Fassifern. To Broadmeadow anyway. Though ISTR a Toronto to Sandgate service at one state. I may be remembering wrong though. 🙂
Interesting stuff. Other lines you should look into are: Lithgow to Mudgee (I travelled on this one before it was closed) Casino to Murwillumbah line, with a cost proposal to extend it through Tweed Head to the Gold coast airport and then rejoin the main line at Robina or similar - rail access from an international airport to those tourist cities must be viable? Wollongong to Robertson, rejoining the main line to canberra just a couple of ideas for you to consider. All the best with your channel.
@@CityConnectionsMedia The northern river line to Murwillumbah is one that the locals wanted reopened, but Gvt still shut it down anyway - the track is in bad repair now. It's a huge tourism area and a missed opportunity to relieve road congestion and also provide heavy freight transposrt to the area in my opinion. I look forward to seeing the series, various NSW gvts have let regional rail nearly die and have really hurt many communities.
I agree with you and the line was originally intended to be extended to the Gold Coast. The cost of building a bridge over the Tweed River was the issue with the Queensland and NSW Government unable to agree on a solution. The service to Murwillumbah was called the Gold Coast Motorail Express until the XPT was introduced which suggests the intention of the extension.
@@aussiejohn5835 the trains from the airport could run down as far as Coffs Harbour -giving an easy way to get all the way to Coffs from the airport that is cheaper than flying there. Also rebuild the Ballina spur line and add that to the network (for frieght as well)
Add in new stations at Glendale, Garden suburb and Kotara fair (or whatever it is called these days) and some higher density around stations and I reckon a Newcastle suburban service would be very viable.
I wanted to talk about those so badly, but it would have made the video 10 minutes longer. Maybe I'll do a follow up and talk about some the minor projects that could improve transport in the Hunter.
Way back in time you could get to Dubbo by going through Bathurst and Orange, or you could get there via Mugdee, the lines converged at Wellington. The link from Mudgee to Wellington will never be reconstructed, but just trying to find out the history of these lines would be an interesting thing to research in itself. Keep em coming.
So you are overlooking a few of the issues as to why the Toronto Line was closed. a) The line itself was poorly utilised before electrification, hence the decision not to electrify the line. The cost to electrify the line was seen as not able to be justified b) The direct services from Toronto before electrification were convenient for going to Newcastle, but they were not convenient for people travelling south c) There is no car parking at Toronto, so many people would just drive to Fassifern and get the train from there. d) In 1988 Grace Brothers moved their store in Newcastle from the Newcastle CBD to the expanded Charlestown Square, this signified a change in dynamics in Newcastle where the retail hub away from the Newcastle CBD. If you look at the big shopping hubs in Newcastle - Charlestown no where near the trainline. Westfield at Kotara is in the middle of Kotara and Adamstown stations and a long walk to either. Glendale is also near the trainline but not near a station. - the idea of getting the train to town to do shopping is dead e) In the mid 90s many Medical Services in Newcastle moved to the John Hunter Hospital - again nowhere near the trainline f) Even for home games of the Newcastle Knights, the ground is too far a walk from Broadmeadow for many The Short North may be a spine through the middle of Newcastle, but it is nowhere near where people want to go. There is also very little difference in time between the bus from Toronto to Fassifern is and what the train was, and the bus is able to service more locations without a connection. The other issue not to overlook is what it would involve to reopen Blackall's Park and Toronto station. As they are new stations, they would need to be fully accessible stations, this would be more then just resurfacing Blackall's Park, as the platform would have to be built to be level with train doors etc. There would also need to be appropriate parking at both stations. This is why the cost of reopening Wallerwang is also so high.
A) I really wanted to look over the actual passenger numbers for the video, but I sadly couldn't find them in my research. I just decided to breeze over it since that seems to be the commonly accepted narrative. B) That probably was a contributing factor, although that's something that could be easily resolved through better scheduling C) That sounds reasonable, but that's not the sort of thing I could verify, and I wasn't alive at the time to know for myself. It was probably a contributing factor though. D) I agree that would probably be a contributing factor. Although you do mention that both Glendale and Kotara are near rail lines. There's no reason we couldn't improve rail access to both as a way to boost patronage. I was going to talk about the Glendale interchange in the video, but I just forgot. I might talk about it in a future video tbh. E) I agree that was probably a contributing factor, but I highly doubt it would caused that much of a blow, although I could be mistaken. F) I agree, but there are plans to construct a light rail line between the two. So that'll become less of an issue in future imo. I'm probably going to do a video on that in future sometime too. Youre first point there, I have mixed feelings on it. On one hand, I agree that the current short north isn't perfectly aligned with where people want to go today, but I did try to frame my proposal more in the context that it should be part of a regional transport project. While it may no be perfect today, give it 20 years of proper intergration into an expanded bus and light rail network, you'll see things change. I probably should have talked more about this in the video, but it was running too long already. I also agree with your point on the buses, but I never said local buses should be cancelled or directly replaced by rail service. The Toronto-Fassifern train in my proposal would be more like a suburban line, where it serves people going from Toronto to Cardiff or Newcastle, not really people going from Toronto to Fassifern. Buses/Bikes/Cars etc will always be faster and more convenient in that regard. As for your final two points. I agree with the neccessity of level boarding, stuff like that is why I generenally over estimate my cost analysises, because that stuff is more difficult to assess and calculate without actually doing a full report on it. But yh, even back in the 1990s you can see a large step between the train and the platform which would need to be rectified. Parking I'm divided on. Blackalls park I don't believe would need much more parking than it already has. I view Blackalls park less as a full station and more as a pickup/drop off point for commuters. Its right in the middle of the suburb, so anyone who needs to get there could easily walk. If they really need to drive to the station for whatever reason. There's plenty at Fassifern, and I wouldn't oppose providing parking at my proposed new Toronto station. That empty site that I said that could be used for a future bus interchange could just as easily be used as a temporary commuter carpark. So for the most part, I agree with parking at Fassifern and Toronto, but not at Blackalls Park. But this is the sort of thing that needs to be addressed in a proper report, which I'm not qualified to do as of yet. Also, thanks for your comment! I appreciate you taking the time to challenge what I've put forward here.
@@CityConnectionsMedia Beware the devil in the detail for providing new services. The concept of a "Pickup / Drop Off point" is no longer acceptable for new infrastructure. Under the accessibility requirements that the NSW Government (and other states) signed up to a long time ago, as well as level platforms, accessible entry points, one of the requirements is appropriate disabled car parking - I know this sounds odd, but street parking near the train station is not acceptable in the accessibility standards. Just check out Wallarobba Station and as part of the upgrade they had to include a disability car park - it is the only sealed car park at the station (and yes the ramp is several times longer then the platform itself) What happened with electrification in 1984, was there was an significant increase in passenger services. Previously there was an hourly direct service Newcastle to Toronto, this became a service every 20 minutes from Newcastle to Fassifern with connection to Toronto in 1984. This was a failure and did not see a boost in suburban traffic. The hourly direct service to Sydney was a winner There was a report that came out around 1990 that the recommendation to close the Toronto line was accepted, but the report also recommended the closure of Booragul, Teralba, Cockle Creek, Kotara and Adamstown stations - there was a backdown on this and the off peak / weekend services were slashed to every two hours, where the Interurban Services stopped all stations, there was some augmentation with weekday Morriset services at a later time, but the numbers were never there. As for Westfield Kotara. A station could be constructed near Northcott Drive, which would be a couple of blocks away. The issue is the line though this area is elevated and would not be an easy build - an expensive station where there was a desire to close suburban stations as they were underperforming . Similar excuses for when the Glendale Shopping Centre was built
I can see your point with Wallarobba station, I do disagree however. Blackalls park is level with the road. For the most part, you wouldn't need a ramp to provide disabled access, just the normal curb ramp from a disabled park, which is already provided. I had a quick google too and it seems that on street parking is fine, as long as a curb ramp and proper signage are installed, but I'm not familiar with disability standard so I'm willing to be corrected. You're probably right there. I'd say the success of that service over the shuttle probably proves it would have been worthwhile to electrify and continue the direct services. I'd love to see that report if you could get your hands on it. I'd love to see the governments own rationale in their own words. That would be my suggested location too, and I'd agree that would be an issue as well. As for stations underperforming, I could point to your previous point about how the Short North doesn't serve places that people want to go. Kotara, Adamstown, Teralba station etc don't, so comparing a station near Glendale or Westfield Kotara wouldn't be fair. They'd perform more similar to stations like Cardiff or Fassifern imo.
I would agree with you 1000% that the government should consider re-opening the line from Toronto to Fassifern, and making it accessible to Newcastle, this would really open up the population growth for Lake Macquarie, and Newcastle..... As a resident of Toronto, I would absolutely 100% use the services for the train and leaving the car at home.
There is a bus service that goes back n forth every half hour. There's hardly anyone on it. Why would the government invest billions to build a train line for a few people.
Excellent, very well researched. The inland freight line between QLD and VIC would, I assume, take some of the container freight services out of the equation as far as capacity is concerned.
I don't know if others remember the Toronto Express to/from Sydney. The train from Sydney would run a bit down from the junction, points would be changed and the train make its way onto the branch platform. The mainline loco would be uncoupled while the branch line one was coupled at what would now be the head of the train. Local passengers would alight and board, and about 10 minutes after the train had arrived from Sydney, it would head off to Lake Macquarie. A couple of hours later, the train would return from Toronto, all the steps would be reversed and the train head south. It would take quite a bit of work to re-instate the branch line but in theory it could be done. The new services could include a through train to Sydney. I don't know about you, but I can't see it happening. Can you?
Great video. I watched a video with footage of trains going down the Toronto branch in the 80s and 90s which seemed rickety. So they would need to ensure that the track is stable. You should do a video on the Belmont NSW branch near Newcastle. The old corridor has been converted into a bike track. Also please consider doing a video on the Richmond to Kurrajong branch (NSW) as well as the Westmead/Rogan’s Hill to Castle Hill forgotten railway corridor. Very curious to learn more about those routes. Also the former Ropes Creek branch could make for a very interesting video especially given the interchange that they are building at St Marys for the Western Sydney Airport Line. The area of the track just before it meets back up with the Main Western Line is being used as a stabling yard for trains and some freight holdings ( I go past it on the train multiple times a week). And also the Picton to Mittagong Loop Line through Thirlmere and Buxton. So many options!
Don't worry, all of those lines are on my to do list. I'm really enjoying doing deep dives on some of the Abandoned lines around NSW. Current plan is to talk about either Camden or Kurrajong line, followed by the Murwillumbah line. I'll make sure to slot the Westmead/Rogan's hill, Ropes Creek, Belmon, and Picton to Mittagong line in my schedule though!
@@CityConnectionsMedia I hope they get done soon! If you want, the Belmont & Toronto Lines are in Open Rails Simulator. The Belmont line is also in Trainz Simulator without the Toronto Line unfortunately.
I was about 14 when the Toronto line closed. I done some silly things back then. I broke my big toe walking along the line one day. Me and my mate use to jump out of the train into the water as it went over Stoney Creek. The trouble we would get into today doing that. 💯
If restored in future, Newcastle Interchange to Toronto should be served with 4-car or shorter versions of Waratahs or whatever newest rolling stock they build for Sydney Trains. I also support electrification of the Hunter Line and restoration of platform 3 at Morisset for terminating local services from Newcastle Interchange.
It's a really good idea, even though would be shut down by the Air Force (they think that the civilian use of the airport is interfering too much with their operations, they're probably going to have to build a new air force base further north if the Newcastle airport gets any busier). But it could be done. Branch off the Main North Line near Hexham, curve around north and east to Raymond Terrace and Medowie, then go south to the airport. That way it also provides direct access to two very car-dependent townships -- a lot of people live in Raymond Terrace and have to drive into Newcastle for work! You could also use this as a way of building some better freight bypasses or even a better route for the North Coast Line to Brisbane. A freight line could go north from Kooragang to a hypothetical airport freight terminal and then along the airport corridor, while intercity trains (maybe even high-speed trains, fingers crossed) could get a new line that follows the M1 via Raymond Terrace and Buladelah to Taree instead of looping around through Dungog.
I don’t know it needs to be electrified I’d instead propose a two part strategy Extend Newcastle light rail to Broadmeadow (and then eventually New Lambton and the John Hunter Hospital Then run the train from Toronto to Maitland/Telarah. Newcastle passengers change at Broadmeadow onto the light rail which they probably would be getting on at Newcastle Interchange anyway. Also allows movement from south of newcastle directly to Maitland without changing at Hamilton. 1hr frequency.
I could see that too. My only critique would be that most people are travelling to Newcastle, not to Maitland, so you'd still need a direct service anyway. Also, you could just electrify to Maitland too and then re-allocate the diesels.
@@CityConnectionsMedia I think there'd be a lot of people heading to the University (Warrabrook) too. And since to get to the Newcastle CBD from the Interchange currently requires using the light rail anyway, it wouldn't add much to the journey time by making the change at Broadmeadow instead.
Something of interest. When the line closed, there was a tourist operation proposed, using a replica of the Coffee Pot. To this end, two government railways rail tractors were purchased, with a view to using them for this replica. Alas, the rail tractors were transferred up there, but I believe the project never went any further.. I am not even sure what happened to the two rail tractors.
Funnily enough, I used that organisations website as one of my sources, but for whatever reason I just forgot to talk about it. It would have been really cool if it did happen. I might have to see if I can track down those rail tractors, might be an interesting deep dive.
Let a maglev act as an intercity service linking Brisbane, Newcastle area, Sydney area, Canberra, Melbourne and finally Adelaide acting as a replacement for some slower congested v/line services, overland(sort of), and the useless XPT service between Sydney and Brisbane and replacing the stupid tilt service between rockhampton and Brisbane no need to worry about gauges as it’s maglev
Great video! One thing to consider that I think was missed is security of the right of way and the noise impact. Fencing the corridor is a contentious issue, and effectively what killed Newcastle Station was that the corridor security and boundary was enforced, cutting the city off from the foreshore. An alternate proposal I'd love to see would be to put light rail from Toronto to Fassifern and then reinstate the fassifern back platform. You can put an "at height" change between the light rail and heavy rail for passengers to walk from one to the other. Then if patronage proves viable, you can upgrade the light rail. My thoughts are that 1. New Level crossings in built up areas arent going to fly with Transport and 2. Light rail corridors are more easily shared. Light rail vehicles can reach the speeds previously achieved and barely increase the journey time. The other problem woth vehicle rail in areas where it hasn't been before (or for a while) is noise. Hell, people move to apartments 3m from the fence around inner Sydney and complain trains are too loud, I can see a lot of push back and noise walls for heavy rail.
I actually originally considered something similar. Imo a tram-train like those in Central-Europe would work great in Newcastle. But I just decided to go in another direction for this vid. I might talk about it more in future though.
I haven't done a deep dive on it, so I don't really have any strong opinions at the moment. But I do intend on talking about it in the very near future.
An idea would be to have single track from Fassifern to Toronto but with a passing loop at Blackalls Park(assuming Blackalls Park is as 2 kilometres from either terminus). This would thus enable a Hunter set starting from Fassifern to meet another Hunter set starting from Toronto at Blackalls Park. The switching at either end of the passing loop would be spring-loaded(I've seen this in action in other British videos). The points would automatically direct each diesel rail motor to the left-hand track from whichever direction it approaches Blackalls Park. As the Rail Motor exits the station, its wheels push the points across, and as the last wheels clear the points, they snap back to their normal setting, removing any need for a signal box or any manual switching for the tracks.
Thanks for a very interesting video, but I don’t think it will ever happen. I grew up at Fassifern and attended what was then called Booragul High School from when it opened in 1958 until August 1961. I used to travel to Booragul from Fassifern by trains originating at Toronto in the morning and traveling to Toronto in the afternoon. Originally they were steam trains, but by 1961 they had all been replaced by the diesel rail cars shown in the video. I worked at Toronto in the last few months of 1961 and again traveled from Fassifern on the diesel railcars. The steam trains had virtually disappeared which was much earlier than mentioned in the video.
It's an unfortunate reality, but it's still fun to propos/think about projects. I'd also be curious to work out precisely when steam locomotives were fully replaced, because I have photos of steam locomotives on the Toronto line as late as 1967. Although that could be because people were racing to photograph steam trains in their final years. It's probably like that by the 60s steam trains were mostly gone on the line, but diesels didn't fully take over until the late 60s/early 70s.
Understand their problem but the level crossings in question would be lucky to serve 50 houses each. Very low traffic volumes like that shouldnt cause any difficulties.
Well I don't like them either if I'm honest. But removing them would add millions more to the costs, so it's a choice of building two level crossings, or not providing rail service, and I'd certainly choose the former.
The level crossing thing would be more akin to Riverstone's level crossing (albiet excluding the heavy traffic from rouse hill, schofields into either Castle Hill or Blacktown) so wouldn't make any sense in blowing billions for minimal traffic
for only four km of track, not sure this one makes much sense. cessnock yes, toronto not really - especially when you've got a rail trail lobby involved. you can't fight those sort of people.
Rail trail lobby there isn't really existing since theres already a bike path next to the rail line. Place fencing and rerouting like 1 or 2 parts of the bike route and its fine. Having this be a starting point for reopening lines is good as the traffic is existing there, the bus routes are rubbish (thank private bus companies ruling over the busing network) and the line is in pretty good condition too, with only replacing rotten sleepers and a bridge and all that
I somewhat agree. The rail trail isn't a major concern since it exists alongside the line and would be able to remain even with the line open. So they're unlikely to oppose re-opening the line. I also agree that with how short the line is, it's difficult to justify reopening it on its own. That's why I tried to expand it to a Newcastle wide project, instead of just a Toronto project.
the best option is Toronto to Broadmeadow then to Newcastle airport change at Fassifern for Central Coast and Sydney, change at broad meadow for Newcastle and the Hunter line possible new station where the lines cross at Islington). tunnel to the airport or Toronto to Cessnock via Broadmeadow, as a through service
If people are going to use the trains, by all means, reopen the line but if the trains are going to be empty all the time like before, there isn't any sense in going to the expense. The rail network in NSW was huge back before car ownership spread to the masses. Once that happened, rural rail lines closed down due to lack of patronage. It's sad from a historical perspective but taxpayers' money shouldn't fund empty trains.
Things do change over time though. Newcastle is one of the fastest growing cities in Australia, and it deperatly needs a solid public transport system, which it doesn't have. It's also important to remember that lots of people can't drive, or just prefer not to, so we need to create viable alternatives for them. And true, the government shouldn't pay for empty trains, but that more than likely wouldn't be the case. The line closed primarily due to lack of patronage, which was in part spurred by poor service. If you build a good service, people will use it.
I think with it only being a block, it would be fine. I would personally prefer to re-use the original station, but I think it's just more practical to use the station a bit further from the centre of town.
I know you save money on a crossing but you blow out your costs then having a new station. At old station would need a lift to get up the hillside at I understand 1.5 million each. But would be cheaper and closer to town centre.
It's less about spending money on the crossing and more that reintroducing it would cause traffic congestion, and would cause a lot of resentment from the locals. Although these sort of details would need to be sussed out before undertaking a project like this, and I can only really give my opinion.
A very interesting and admirable proposition and obviously you have done a lot of work. But as you say the potential for population growth in the Toronto area is very limited. When that factor is taken into consideration together with a general reluctance of people in the Hunter area to use public transport, which shows no sign of changing, I think it will be difficult to build a case. On top of that, in my opinion anyway, no Sydney government (of any persuasion) would be inclined to support this proposal. Sydney governments have a pathetic record in respect of contributing to public transport in this area.
I'm kinda agree with you. I do think people in the hunter are very averse to using public transport, but that's more because it's bad. No one uses the train or bus because the bus every every hour and takes 40 mins to go 10km. But that sort of issue is fixed by building public transport that people actually want to use. As for your final point, you're unfortunatley correct. Sydney has most of the votes in parliament, so it gets all the money, and Newcastle is all safe labor, so the liberals don't try because they know they won't win, and labor doesn't try because they know the liberals won't win.
It could work, but depending how it would be done would bring up a few issus. If it's a light rail like in Newcastle or Sydney, then you couldn't run the trams on the mainline since they have different standards and OHLE voltages. If it's a tram-train like in Germany, it could work, but you'd then need proprietary rolling stock, which probably wouldn't be worthwhile for such a short stub. It'd just be easier and cheaper to use the existing double deck stock imo
For a start, it's *NOT* Newcastle Interchange as that ugly monstrosity is located just inside the suburb of Wickham. Thus it is *Wickham Interchange!* (17:18)
@@Mediawatcher2023 It's labelled as "Central", not "Sydney Central". But Haymarket is a "precinct" of Sydney, not a suburb, just like Civic and Honeysuckle are "precincts" of Newcastle, not suburbs, because they lie well inside the Newcastle boundaries. Wickhama suburb, the southern boundary of which lies where the old level crossing boom gate used to be on the Newcastle side of the now-gone rail lines.
@@neilforbes416 i was reading the latest survey since the rail line closed more and more people are coming into the city. They said its a big improvement.
Large Infracture improvements in Newcatle region will rarely happen if ever. These are safe Labor electorates so the Labor party don't need to spend the money. The Liberal party won't spend money in electorates they will never win so unless they can see a way to privatise or sell off to developers nothing will ever change.
LOCAL TRAINS IN ALL NSW RAILWAY TRANSPORT FROM 1978 BEING CLOSED DOWN LIGHT RAIL SERVICE OUT NSW BUSH AREA LIVING BROCKLESBY WHERE CLOSED LINE IN 1980 BECAUSE DID NOT HAVE PUPLICE TRANSPORT AREA BECAUSE ONLY 50KM OUT ALBURY
200mil sounds like a huge unnecessary burden on the taxpayer just so a small number of people can save 10 minutes on a trip to Newcastle. Better off spending that money on fixing our crap roads which the majority of people use, including the bus services that achieve the same thing as rail for a fraction of the cost.
I strongly disagree. The only reason the 'majority' of people drive is because we've spent the past 50 years shutting down and cutting rail/public transport services in the Hunter. This is even ignorning the fact that lots of people can't drive, or can't afford to do so. 200million sounds like a lot, but our government is spending 450million on finishing the inner city bypass, which will only make traffic worse. We need to move away from car dependancy, and improving public transport in the Hunter is one part of doing so. My proposal is mostly meant to go alongside improvements to bus services, and act more as a rail backbone. I would completley support spending 200 million on imporiving bus services if it were an option.
I agree for the most part. I generally try and overestimate to account for things I've not factored in, and there aren't many case studies I can point to for a better number. At least none that I can think of.
There not going to build a 2 K rail spur along a route that has a bus route with limited passengers. This is a ridiculous idea from the same elderly residents groups who slow up every development with there bickering. Don't build that buidling it will interupt my view. It's height of privilege and quite rude of them.
if l'm not still shadowbanned across the board. We are not in a "climate crisis" we are in an ENERGY crisis. With ever increasing demands on the surviving Power Generators in Australia we are going to end up like California, reliant ONLY on electricity, then being told to not use your air conditioners, or charge your cars or cook on your electric stove because, oops too late, load shedding, no power for you. l laugh at how undereducated todays "yoof" is, they think electricity magically comes from that hole filled thing in the wall where you plug in your charger.
no no, we definitley are in a climate crisis. The climate crisis issue isn't even up for debate at the moment. We have a scientific consesus, that there is a scientific consensus. We know the climate is changing, and we know we're the causing it. It is a valid concern that renewables are less reliable than fossil fuels, but fossil fuels aren't reliable either. It was natural gas plants failing that caused the texas power grid failure not long ago, not renewables. Even if we ignore that example, large scale grid interconnections and energy storage systems are going to ensure that renewables beat fossil fuels not only in price, but reliability and generation. Also, I don't know what 'yoof' you're talking to, but most people my age (early 20s) are fairly knowledgable, and know basic things like how electricity works. I was even taught how power generation works in primary school. If you're talking about believing in climate change as 'undereducated', again, the evidence for climate change is overwhelming. P.S. You're not shadow banned, this didn't even appear in my 'held for review' section
@@CityConnectionsMedia wow, fully brainwashed by the establishment. 1/Plymouth Rock, 400 years in the same place and it gets moistened at high tide. look it up. 2/ "scientific consensus" like the scientific consensus about "safe and effective".. 3/the U.N. (headed by a whitewashed Ethiopian terrorist), filled with UNELECTED bureaucrats funded by "vested interests" "partnered with" Google to slew climate change search results because "the U.N. "owns the science" on climate change".. SO, UNELECTED BUREAUCRATS , like those who peddled the whole covid thing, are to be trusted about THIS? 4/ dig deeper than the data those same agenda pushers are shoveling and see for yourself, prior to the Younger Dyas cataclysm the world was heating up and we were plunged back into an ice age that we are still recovering from. 5/ in earths history the planet was HOTTER and GREENER, plants need CO2 to survive, the more CO2 the greener the planet, the obscenely wealthy have invested great sums of capital into renewable energy, they want a return on their investments what ever the costs.. wake up before it's too late buddy. ps, you are one of the rare ones who remembers what they were indoctrinated with at school.. so, when they shut down all the power generators and we have to rely on "unreliable, yet to be perfected, renewables and everybody is told to "not charge your cars or power your air conditioners today because of excess load concerns" (california case in point), you can always rub two sticks together to light a fire now they took your gas stove because "global warming" this is nothing but MORE CONTROLLING THE PEASANTS.. (think the first "ANTS" movie.). "this isn't about the FOOD, it's about SECURING OUR WAY OF LIFE" says the obscenely wealthy who have been conditioned to believe Malthusian politics that "we are going to "run out" of "things" so we need to cull the minions".
1) So? A rock by the sea gets wet? I don't know what that's relevant to? 2) Consensus that what is 'safe and effective'? I'm presuming you mean vaccines, more specifically covid vaccines, in which case yes, they are safe and effective. If anything that's proven by the fact that whenever a minor issue arose, there was an investigation and occassionally the vaccine was recalled. 3) The current leader of the UN is Portugese, and the previous one was South Korean? Unless you're refering to the current leader of the WHO, who is Ethiopian, but the WHO is not the UN, it is part of the UN. Also, the UN doesn't do climate research (at least directly), it only coordinates research from national and private organisations. You might be getting confused with the IPCC, which is part of the UN and discusses climate change issues. What I want to ask you, is what reason would they have to lie? What does the UN, alongside almost every nation and scientist on the planet have to gain from faking climate change? If it's control, why focus on reducing pollution? Why not do what China or Russia do? 4) I'm not sure if that's true, although I'm not a climate scientist by education. 5) Depending on the era, that's true. It is also true that plants do like CO2, but the problem is everything has limits. Humans need oxygen, but if you put us in a pure oxygen environment, we die. It's the same with plants. Our modern plants evolved in certain atmospheric conditions, so changing that has negative impacts on them. The obscenly wealthy have also invested great sums into fossil fuels? if anything more so. The richest person in Australia is a mining magnate after all. I'm not sure being told how a coal fired power station works is indoctrination, but okay. How is trying to transition to a power source that pollutes less about control? Renewables work, and they're on par with fossil fuels. The only reason we're having issues with renewables at the moment is because changing an entire power grid is not an easy task. So of course there's issues. It's not like it can't be done, some regions are getting close, like Europe. Also, the gas stove thing is weird. That was just a proposal by a democrat in the US (iirc) and now a bunch of conservatives world wide have taken that as 'the left is coming for your gas stove'. No one talks about that. I have a gas stove, it's fine, I would prefer an induction one though, but that's just because it's more efficient and pollutes less. The transition to electric stoves is going to happen simply because it's cheaper and better for the environment. Final note, there is no such thing as infinite growth on a finite planet. We are overusing our planets resources, and we need to reduce consumption. While that's true, there's not real indication that the 'elites' are considering a 'purge of the proles'. There is a strong argument to change our economic system to not focus as much on economic growth, and to crack down on billionaire elites, because yeah, they have too much power.
Your proposal is better than half the proposals I've seen from working in transport in NSW.
That's good for my sake, probably not for the state though :/
You could have said you wanted to run steam trains on the line powered by burning money and it wouldn't be as bad as some. Though it was also a good proposal in its own right. 👍
@@zman1508 I know. And for saving Dapto, perhaps Koalaman could save the Dapto area by electrifying the line down there from Kiama all the way to Nowra, actually building the bridge. That would make the trip to Centrelink better ;
The standard run for the DMU’s was all the way to Newcastle from Toronto. The line wasn’t electrified due to the extra current that would have been required to power the branch line.
@@gregessex1851 I thought it was mostly the first and last runs of the day that went north from Fassifern.
To Broadmeadow anyway.
Though ISTR a Toronto to Sandgate service at one state. I may be remembering wrong though. 🙂
Interesting stuff. Other lines you should look into are:
Lithgow to Mudgee (I travelled on this one before it was closed)
Casino to Murwillumbah line, with a cost proposal to extend it through Tweed Head to the Gold coast airport and then rejoin the main line at Robina or similar - rail access from an international airport to those tourist cities must be viable?
Wollongong to Robertson, rejoining the main line to canberra
just a couple of ideas for you to consider.
All the best with your channel.
Oh I plan to. I've been really enjoying looking into a lot of the older forgotten lines in NSW. I might make this a regular series if I'm honest.
@@CityConnectionsMedia The northern river line to Murwillumbah is one that the locals wanted reopened, but Gvt still shut it down anyway - the track is in bad repair now.
It's a huge tourism area and a missed opportunity to relieve road congestion and also provide heavy freight transposrt to the area in my opinion.
I look forward to seeing the series, various NSW gvts have let regional rail nearly die and have really hurt many communities.
I agree with you and the line was originally intended to be extended to the Gold Coast. The cost of building a bridge over the Tweed River was the issue with the Queensland and NSW Government unable to agree on a solution. The service to Murwillumbah was called the Gold Coast Motorail Express until the XPT was introduced which suggests the intention of the extension.
@@aussiejohn5835 the trains from the airport could run down as far as Coffs Harbour -giving an easy way to get all the way to Coffs from the airport that is cheaper than flying there. Also rebuild the Ballina spur line and add that to the network (for frieght as well)
@David McCarthy I agree with you 👍. We just need a Government that is willing to build and not destroy.
Add in new stations at Glendale, Garden suburb and Kotara fair (or whatever it is called these days) and some higher density around stations and I reckon a Newcastle suburban service would be very viable.
I wanted to talk about those so badly, but it would have made the video 10 minutes longer. Maybe I'll do a follow up and talk about some the minor projects that could improve transport in the Hunter.
Way back in time you could get to Dubbo by going through Bathurst and Orange, or you could get there via Mugdee, the lines converged at Wellington.
The link from Mudgee to Wellington will never be reconstructed, but just trying to find out the history of these lines would be an interesting thing to research in itself.
Keep em coming.
you could also do the same for oberon to tarana
@@alexandersmith7777 Another line that should never been closed cheers bob.🚆
So you are overlooking a few of the issues as to why the Toronto Line was closed.
a) The line itself was poorly utilised before electrification, hence the decision not to electrify the line. The cost to electrify the line was seen as not able to be justified
b) The direct services from Toronto before electrification were convenient for going to Newcastle, but they were not convenient for people travelling south
c) There is no car parking at Toronto, so many people would just drive to Fassifern and get the train from there.
d) In 1988 Grace Brothers moved their store in Newcastle from the Newcastle CBD to the expanded Charlestown Square, this signified a change in dynamics in Newcastle where the retail hub away from the Newcastle CBD. If you look at the big shopping hubs in Newcastle - Charlestown no where near the trainline. Westfield at Kotara is in the middle of Kotara and Adamstown stations and a long walk to either. Glendale is also near the trainline but not near a station. - the idea of getting the train to town to do shopping is dead
e) In the mid 90s many Medical Services in Newcastle moved to the John Hunter Hospital - again nowhere near the trainline
f) Even for home games of the Newcastle Knights, the ground is too far a walk from Broadmeadow for many
The Short North may be a spine through the middle of Newcastle, but it is nowhere near where people want to go. There is also very little difference in time between the bus from Toronto to Fassifern is and what the train was, and the bus is able to service more locations without a connection.
The other issue not to overlook is what it would involve to reopen Blackall's Park and Toronto station. As they are new stations, they would need to be fully accessible stations, this would be more then just resurfacing Blackall's Park, as the platform would have to be built to be level with train doors etc. There would also need to be appropriate parking at both stations. This is why the cost of reopening Wallerwang is also so high.
A) I really wanted to look over the actual passenger numbers for the video, but I sadly couldn't find them in my research. I just decided to breeze over it since that seems to be the commonly accepted narrative.
B) That probably was a contributing factor, although that's something that could be easily resolved through better scheduling
C) That sounds reasonable, but that's not the sort of thing I could verify, and I wasn't alive at the time to know for myself. It was probably a contributing factor though.
D) I agree that would probably be a contributing factor. Although you do mention that both Glendale and Kotara are near rail lines. There's no reason we couldn't improve rail access to both as a way to boost patronage. I was going to talk about the Glendale interchange in the video, but I just forgot. I might talk about it in a future video tbh.
E) I agree that was probably a contributing factor, but I highly doubt it would caused that much of a blow, although I could be mistaken.
F) I agree, but there are plans to construct a light rail line between the two. So that'll become less of an issue in future imo. I'm probably going to do a video on that in future sometime too.
Youre first point there, I have mixed feelings on it. On one hand, I agree that the current short north isn't perfectly aligned with where people want to go today, but I did try to frame my proposal more in the context that it should be part of a regional transport project. While it may no be perfect today, give it 20 years of proper intergration into an expanded bus and light rail network, you'll see things change. I probably should have talked more about this in the video, but it was running too long already.
I also agree with your point on the buses, but I never said local buses should be cancelled or directly replaced by rail service. The Toronto-Fassifern train in my proposal would be more like a suburban line, where it serves people going from Toronto to Cardiff or Newcastle, not really people going from Toronto to Fassifern. Buses/Bikes/Cars etc will always be faster and more convenient in that regard.
As for your final two points. I agree with the neccessity of level boarding, stuff like that is why I generenally over estimate my cost analysises, because that stuff is more difficult to assess and calculate without actually doing a full report on it. But yh, even back in the 1990s you can see a large step between the train and the platform which would need to be rectified.
Parking I'm divided on. Blackalls park I don't believe would need much more parking than it already has. I view Blackalls park less as a full station and more as a pickup/drop off point for commuters. Its right in the middle of the suburb, so anyone who needs to get there could easily walk. If they really need to drive to the station for whatever reason. There's plenty at Fassifern, and I wouldn't oppose providing parking at my proposed new Toronto station. That empty site that I said that could be used for a future bus interchange could just as easily be used as a temporary commuter carpark. So for the most part, I agree with parking at Fassifern and Toronto, but not at Blackalls Park. But this is the sort of thing that needs to be addressed in a proper report, which I'm not qualified to do as of yet.
Also, thanks for your comment! I appreciate you taking the time to challenge what I've put forward here.
@@CityConnectionsMedia Beware the devil in the detail for providing new services. The concept of a "Pickup / Drop Off point" is no longer acceptable for new infrastructure. Under the accessibility requirements that the NSW Government (and other states) signed up to a long time ago, as well as level platforms, accessible entry points, one of the requirements is appropriate disabled car parking - I know this sounds odd, but street parking near the train station is not acceptable in the accessibility standards. Just check out Wallarobba Station and as part of the upgrade they had to include a disability car park - it is the only sealed car park at the station (and yes the ramp is several times longer then the platform itself)
What happened with electrification in 1984, was there was an significant increase in passenger services. Previously there was an hourly direct service Newcastle to Toronto, this became a service every 20 minutes from Newcastle to Fassifern with connection to Toronto in 1984. This was a failure and did not see a boost in suburban traffic. The hourly direct service to Sydney was a winner
There was a report that came out around 1990 that the recommendation to close the Toronto line was accepted, but the report also recommended the closure of Booragul, Teralba, Cockle Creek, Kotara and Adamstown stations - there was a backdown on this and the off peak / weekend services were slashed to every two hours, where the Interurban Services stopped all stations, there was some augmentation with weekday Morriset services at a later time, but the numbers were never there.
As for Westfield Kotara. A station could be constructed near Northcott Drive, which would be a couple of blocks away. The issue is the line though this area is elevated and would not be an easy build - an expensive station where there was a desire to close suburban stations as they were underperforming . Similar excuses for when the Glendale Shopping Centre was built
I can see your point with Wallarobba station, I do disagree however. Blackalls park is level with the road. For the most part, you wouldn't need a ramp to provide disabled access, just the normal curb ramp from a disabled park, which is already provided. I had a quick google too and it seems that on street parking is fine, as long as a curb ramp and proper signage are installed, but I'm not familiar with disability standard so I'm willing to be corrected.
You're probably right there. I'd say the success of that service over the shuttle probably proves it would have been worthwhile to electrify and continue the direct services.
I'd love to see that report if you could get your hands on it. I'd love to see the governments own rationale in their own words.
That would be my suggested location too, and I'd agree that would be an issue as well. As for stations underperforming, I could point to your previous point about how the Short North doesn't serve places that people want to go. Kotara, Adamstown, Teralba station etc don't, so comparing a station near Glendale or Westfield Kotara wouldn't be fair. They'd perform more similar to stations like Cardiff or Fassifern imo.
A great little video another line shut down by the government in the pocket of road transport many lines all over nsw were closed
Great video. I would love to see the Belmont line reopen with planned extensions to Gosford (eastern lake line).
Yes!
I would agree with you 1000% that the government should consider re-opening the line from Toronto to Fassifern, and making it accessible to Newcastle, this would really open up the population growth for Lake Macquarie, and Newcastle.....
As a resident of Toronto, I would absolutely 100% use the services for the train and leaving the car at home.
Nicole hammer the government on this issue,
There is a bus service that goes back n forth every half hour. There's hardly anyone on it. Why would the government invest billions to build a train line for a few people.
Excellent, very well researched. The inland freight line between QLD and VIC would, I assume, take some of the container freight services out of the equation as far as capacity is concerned.
There's always one topic I forget to mention, and apparently it's Inland Rail. it would also greatly reduce the amount freight trains.
not as much as you would think. Mainly because a lot of these freight trains between Melbourne and Brisbane also stop in Sydney to drop and pickup.
@@carisi2k11 That's true, although even if only 10% of trains use inland rail, that'll still provide a good boost to capacity.
I don't know if others remember the Toronto Express to/from Sydney. The train from Sydney would run a bit down from the junction, points would be changed and the train make its way onto the branch platform. The mainline loco would be uncoupled while the branch line one was coupled at what would now be the head of the train. Local passengers would alight and board, and about 10 minutes after the train had arrived from Sydney, it would head off to Lake Macquarie. A couple of hours later, the train would return from Toronto, all the steps would be reversed and the train head south.
It would take quite a bit of work to re-instate the branch line but in theory it could be done. The new services could include a through train to Sydney. I don't know about you, but I can't see it happening. Can you?
I've done an inspection on that concrete arch bridge as an apprentice.
How'd your inspection go? I'm hoping my statement wasn't too far off reality.
The bridge is fine. NSW really takes bridge inspections seriously. Especially after Granville.
Good to hear!
@@zman1508 When was it?
Great video. I watched a video with footage of trains going down the Toronto branch in the 80s and 90s which seemed rickety. So they would need to ensure that the track is stable.
You should do a video on the Belmont NSW branch near Newcastle. The old corridor has been converted into a bike track.
Also please consider doing a video on the Richmond to Kurrajong branch (NSW) as well as the Westmead/Rogan’s Hill to Castle Hill forgotten railway corridor. Very curious to learn more about those routes.
Also the former Ropes Creek branch could make for a very interesting video especially given the interchange that they are building at St Marys for the Western Sydney Airport Line. The area of the track just before it meets back up with the Main Western Line is being used as a stabling yard for trains and some freight holdings ( I go past it on the train multiple times a week).
And also the Picton to Mittagong Loop Line through Thirlmere and Buxton.
So many options!
Don't worry, all of those lines are on my to do list. I'm really enjoying doing deep dives on some of the Abandoned lines around NSW. Current plan is to talk about either Camden or Kurrajong line, followed by the Murwillumbah line. I'll make sure to slot the Westmead/Rogan's hill, Ropes Creek, Belmon, and Picton to Mittagong line in my schedule though!
@@CityConnectionsMedia I hope they get done soon! If you want, the Belmont & Toronto Lines are in Open Rails Simulator. The Belmont line is also in Trainz Simulator without the Toronto Line unfortunately.
I was about 14 when the Toronto line closed. I done some silly things back then. I broke my big toe walking along the line one day. Me and my mate use to jump out of the train into the water as it went over Stoney Creek. The trouble we would get into today doing that. 💯
If restored in future, Newcastle Interchange to Toronto should be served with 4-car or shorter versions of Waratahs or whatever newest rolling stock they build for Sydney Trains. I also support electrification of the Hunter Line and restoration of platform 3 at Morisset for terminating local services from Newcastle Interchange.
I would love to hear your take on the idea of Newcastle Airport getting a train connection
I might have to do a video on that. I've not looked into it much since I got out of high school, so I don't really have much to say atm.
I think the really difficult and expensive part would be crossing the river.
It's a really good idea, even though would be shut down by the Air Force (they think that the civilian use of the airport is interfering too much with their operations, they're probably going to have to build a new air force base further north if the Newcastle airport gets any busier). But it could be done. Branch off the Main North Line near Hexham, curve around north and east to Raymond Terrace and Medowie, then go south to the airport. That way it also provides direct access to two very car-dependent townships -- a lot of people live in Raymond Terrace and have to drive into Newcastle for work!
You could also use this as a way of building some better freight bypasses or even a better route for the North Coast Line to Brisbane. A freight line could go north from Kooragang to a hypothetical airport freight terminal and then along the airport corridor, while intercity trains (maybe even high-speed trains, fingers crossed) could get a new line that follows the M1 via Raymond Terrace and Buladelah to Taree instead of looping around through Dungog.
Mate, absolutely fabulous video. Loved it.
That's good to hear! Thankyou
@@CityConnectionsMedia subscribed and looking forward to more.
Costs are interestingly absent of the graft and corruption of overseas accounts which milk off the majority of the amount of the previous costs.
I don’t know it needs to be electrified
I’d instead propose a two part strategy
Extend Newcastle light rail to Broadmeadow (and then eventually New Lambton and the John Hunter Hospital
Then run the train from Toronto to Maitland/Telarah. Newcastle passengers change at Broadmeadow onto the light rail which they probably would be getting on at Newcastle Interchange anyway.
Also allows movement from south of newcastle directly to Maitland without changing at Hamilton. 1hr frequency.
I could see that too. My only critique would be that most people are travelling to Newcastle, not to Maitland, so you'd still need a direct service anyway. Also, you could just electrify to Maitland too and then re-allocate the diesels.
@@CityConnectionsMedia I think there'd be a lot of people heading to the University (Warrabrook) too. And since to get to the Newcastle CBD from the Interchange currently requires using the light rail anyway, it wouldn't add much to the journey time by making the change at Broadmeadow instead.
Something of interest.
When the line closed, there was a tourist operation proposed, using a replica of the Coffee Pot.
To this end, two government railways rail tractors were purchased, with a view to using them for this replica.
Alas, the rail tractors were transferred up there, but I believe the project never went any further.. I am not even sure what happened to the two rail tractors.
Funnily enough, I used that organisations website as one of my sources, but for whatever reason I just forgot to talk about it. It would have been really cool if it did happen. I might have to see if I can track down those rail tractors, might be an interesting deep dive.
@@CityConnectionsMedia let us know if you find them.
Am really curious to know.
@@CityConnectionsMedia You could do a video of them irl. Like Transport For NSW Vlogs went to thr retired Variotram storage area a few years ago.
@@TrainsForNSWVlogs Maybe, I'll be in that area next weekend actually.
@@CityConnectionsMedia Ok I hope you get there!
Let a maglev act as an intercity service linking Brisbane, Newcastle area, Sydney area, Canberra, Melbourne and finally Adelaide acting as a replacement for some slower congested v/line services, overland(sort of), and the useless XPT service between Sydney and Brisbane and replacing the stupid tilt service between rockhampton and Brisbane no need to worry about gauges as it’s maglev
Great video! One thing to consider that I think was missed is security of the right of way and the noise impact. Fencing the corridor is a contentious issue, and effectively what killed Newcastle Station was that the corridor security and boundary was enforced, cutting the city off from the foreshore. An alternate proposal I'd love to see would be to put light rail from Toronto to Fassifern and then reinstate the fassifern back platform. You can put an "at height" change between the light rail and heavy rail for passengers to walk from one to the other. Then if patronage proves viable, you can upgrade the light rail. My thoughts are that 1. New Level crossings in built up areas arent going to fly with Transport and 2. Light rail corridors are more easily shared. Light rail vehicles can reach the speeds previously achieved and barely increase the journey time.
The other problem woth vehicle rail in areas where it hasn't been before (or for a while) is noise. Hell, people move to apartments 3m from the fence around inner Sydney and complain trains are too loud, I can see a lot of push back and noise walls for heavy rail.
I actually originally considered something similar. Imo a tram-train like those in Central-Europe would work great in Newcastle. But I just decided to go in another direction for this vid. I might talk about it more in future though.
Do you have any comments or ideas on the Murwillumbah line (Casino to Murwillumbah via Byron Bay)?
I haven't done a deep dive on it, so I don't really have any strong opinions at the moment. But I do intend on talking about it in the very near future.
Yes revive it and link it with a high speed intercity line
An idea would be to have single track from Fassifern to Toronto but with a passing loop at Blackalls Park(assuming Blackalls Park is as 2 kilometres from either terminus). This would thus enable a Hunter set starting from Fassifern to meet another Hunter set starting from Toronto at Blackalls Park. The switching at either end of the passing loop would be spring-loaded(I've seen this in action in other British videos). The points would automatically direct each diesel rail motor to the left-hand track from whichever direction it approaches Blackalls Park. As the Rail Motor exits the station, its wheels push the points across, and as the last wheels clear the points, they snap back to their normal setting, removing any need for a signal box or any manual switching for the tracks.
@neilforbes416 i dont think that idea would work
@@top40researcher31 It *DOES* work and is used extensively in Europe and Britain on single line railways.
@@neilforbes416 if this line would reopen it be as a tourist line
@@neilforbes416 i don't think its ever done in Australia
@@neilforbes416 interesting
Great job but the line needs to go all the way to the existing Toronto station.
Thanks for a very interesting video, but I don’t think it will ever happen. I grew up at Fassifern and attended what was then called Booragul High School from when it opened in 1958 until August 1961. I used to travel to Booragul from Fassifern by trains originating at Toronto in the morning and traveling to Toronto in the afternoon. Originally they were steam trains, but by 1961 they had all been replaced by the diesel rail cars shown in the video. I worked at Toronto in the last few months of 1961 and again traveled from Fassifern on the diesel railcars. The steam trains had virtually disappeared which was much earlier than mentioned in the video.
It's an unfortunate reality, but it's still fun to propos/think about projects.
I'd also be curious to work out precisely when steam locomotives were fully replaced, because I have photos of steam locomotives on the Toronto line as late as 1967. Although that could be because people were racing to photograph steam trains in their final years. It's probably like that by the 60s steam trains were mostly gone on the line, but diesels didn't fully take over until the late 60s/early 70s.
Only point I will add is that transport NSW HATES level crossings currently. The culture in the organisation is fairly against them.
Understand their problem but the level crossings in question would be lucky to serve 50 houses each. Very low traffic volumes like that shouldnt cause any difficulties.
Well I don't like them either if I'm honest. But removing them would add millions more to the costs, so it's a choice of building two level crossings, or not providing rail service, and I'd certainly choose the former.
@@CityConnectionsMedia far more important to provide service in my opinion also.
@@mikk4309 the first thing you learn about newcastle is their level of nimbyinsm is absolutely unmatched.
The level crossing thing would be more akin to Riverstone's level crossing (albiet excluding the heavy traffic from rouse hill, schofields into either Castle Hill or Blacktown) so wouldn't make any sense in blowing billions for minimal traffic
love this
On what evidence do you believe the photo at 1:03 is of the Fassifern to Toronto railway?
for only four km of track, not sure this one makes much sense. cessnock yes, toronto not really - especially when you've got a rail trail lobby involved. you can't fight those sort of people.
Rail trail lobby there isn't really existing since theres already a bike path next to the rail line. Place fencing and rerouting like 1 or 2 parts of the bike route and its fine. Having this be a starting point for reopening lines is good as the traffic is existing there, the bus routes are rubbish (thank private bus companies ruling over the busing network) and the line is in pretty good condition too, with only replacing rotten sleepers and a bridge and all that
I somewhat agree. The rail trail isn't a major concern since it exists alongside the line and would be able to remain even with the line open. So they're unlikely to oppose re-opening the line. I also agree that with how short the line is, it's difficult to justify reopening it on its own. That's why I tried to expand it to a Newcastle wide project, instead of just a Toronto project.
@@CityConnectionsMedia that does lend an interesting aspect.
NICE ONE LIKE KNOW IT DAM COST SO MUCH TO DO SO LITTLE EVER THING SHOULD A LIKE A VIDEO GREAT JOB AND YEH DID THE KINE RUN SO MANY TIMES WAS GREAT RUN
the best option is Toronto to Broadmeadow then to Newcastle airport
change at Fassifern for Central Coast and Sydney, change at broad meadow for Newcastle and the Hunter line possible new station where the lines cross at Islington). tunnel to the airport
or Toronto to Cessnock via Broadmeadow, as a through service
How about reopen the Belmont line as well
I really want to do a video on that sometime in the future.
@@CityConnectionsMedia That would be nice.
Toronto, Cessnock and Belmont should never have been closed
very true. Apart from, you know, people not using them. Foam foam foam, foam foam foam, foam foam ...
Agreed!
Who exactly would use it?
People traveling to Sydney or Newcastle who can't/don't want to drive, and terminating local trains.
The branch should never been closed the government in the pocket of road transport bus mad should be reopened for the people.
It should be reopened but as light rail to minimise costs.
It could work? but then (depending on the system used) it would be incompatible with the main network, defeating the point.
If people are going to use the trains, by all means, reopen the line but if the trains are going to be empty all the time like before, there isn't any sense in going to the expense. The rail network in NSW was huge back before car ownership spread to the masses. Once that happened, rural rail lines closed down due to lack of patronage. It's sad from a historical perspective but taxpayers' money shouldn't fund empty trains.
Things do change over time though. Newcastle is one of the fastest growing cities in Australia, and it deperatly needs a solid public transport system, which it doesn't have.
It's also important to remember that lots of people can't drive, or just prefer not to, so we need to create viable alternatives for them.
And true, the government shouldn't pay for empty trains, but that more than likely wouldn't be the case. The line closed primarily due to lack of patronage, which was in part spurred by poor service. If you build a good service, people will use it.
It's not fair, you can't have a Toronto in NSW
People will not walk that far to the town centre
I think with it only being a block, it would be fine. I would personally prefer to re-use the original station, but I think it's just more practical to use the station a bit further from the centre of town.
I know you save money on a crossing but you blow out your costs then having a new station. At old station would need a lift to get up the hillside at I understand 1.5 million each. But would be cheaper and closer to town centre.
It's less about spending money on the crossing and more that reintroducing it would cause traffic congestion, and would cause a lot of resentment from the locals. Although these sort of details would need to be sussed out before undertaking a project like this, and I can only really give my opinion.
A very interesting and admirable proposition and obviously you have done a lot of work. But as you say the potential for population growth in the Toronto area is very limited. When that factor is taken into consideration together with a general reluctance of people in the Hunter area to use public transport, which shows no sign of changing, I think it will be difficult to build a case. On top of that, in my opinion anyway, no Sydney government (of any persuasion) would be inclined to support this proposal. Sydney governments have a pathetic record in respect of contributing to public transport in this area.
I'm kinda agree with you. I do think people in the hunter are very averse to using public transport, but that's more because it's bad. No one uses the train or bus because the bus every every hour and takes 40 mins to go 10km. But that sort of issue is fixed by building public transport that people actually want to use.
As for your final point, you're unfortunatley correct. Sydney has most of the votes in parliament, so it gets all the money, and Newcastle is all safe labor, so the liberals don't try because they know they won't win, and labor doesn't try because they know the liberals won't win.
20 years after they overdevelop toronto, they will put the line back
Unfortunately government doesn’t give a flying fudge about these low socioeconomic areas.
They use common sense witch no one here has.
Government uses common sense ? 😅
Be better as light rail rather then heavy rail. Lighter then a heavy train and better for access.
It could work, but depending how it would be done would bring up a few issus. If it's a light rail like in Newcastle or Sydney, then you couldn't run the trams on the mainline since they have different standards and OHLE voltages. If it's a tram-train like in Germany, it could work, but you'd then need proprietary rolling stock, which probably wouldn't be worthwhile for such a short stub. It'd just be easier and cheaper to use the existing double deck stock imo
For a start, it's *NOT* Newcastle Interchange as that ugly monstrosity is located just inside the suburb of Wickham. Thus it is *Wickham Interchange!* (17:18)
@neilforbes416 to you it would be Wickham interchange but to everyone else it be newcastle
@neilforbes416 look at central station in sydney its at Haymarket
well if thats the case that would confuse a lot of communters going to Newcastle
@@Mediawatcher2023 It's labelled as "Central", not "Sydney Central". But Haymarket is a "precinct" of Sydney, not a suburb, just like Civic and Honeysuckle are "precincts" of Newcastle, not suburbs, because they lie well inside the Newcastle boundaries. Wickhama suburb, the southern boundary of which lies where the old level crossing boom gate used to be on the Newcastle side of the now-gone rail lines.
@@neilforbes416 i was reading the latest survey since the rail line closed more and more people are coming into the city. They said its a big improvement.
Large Infracture improvements in Newcatle region will rarely happen if ever. These are safe Labor electorates so the Labor party don't need to spend the money. The Liberal party won't spend money in electorates they will never win so unless they can see a way to privatise or sell off to developers nothing will ever change.
That's the unfortunate reality :/
LOCAL TRAINS IN ALL NSW RAILWAY TRANSPORT FROM 1978 BEING CLOSED DOWN LIGHT RAIL SERVICE OUT NSW BUSH AREA
LIVING BROCKLESBY WHERE CLOSED LINE IN 1980 BECAUSE DID NOT HAVE PUPLICE TRANSPORT AREA BECAUSE ONLY 50KM OUT ALBURY
200mil sounds like a huge unnecessary burden on the taxpayer just so a small number of people can save 10 minutes on a trip to Newcastle.
Better off spending that money on fixing our crap roads which the majority of people use, including the bus services that achieve the same thing as rail for a fraction of the cost.
I strongly disagree. The only reason the 'majority' of people drive is because we've spent the past 50 years shutting down and cutting rail/public transport services in the Hunter. This is even ignorning the fact that lots of people can't drive, or can't afford to do so.
200million sounds like a lot, but our government is spending 450million on finishing the inner city bypass, which will only make traffic worse. We need to move away from car dependancy, and improving public transport in the Hunter is one part of doing so.
My proposal is mostly meant to go alongside improvements to bus services, and act more as a rail backbone. I would completley support spending 200 million on imporiving bus services if it were an option.
Your cost for track work is way over priced
I agree for the most part. I generally try and overestimate to account for things I've not factored in, and there aren't many case studies I can point to for a better number. At least none that I can think of.
There not going to build a 2 K rail spur along a route that has a bus route with limited passengers. This is a ridiculous idea from the same elderly residents groups who slow up every development with there bickering. Don't build that buidling it will interupt my view. It's height of privilege and quite rude of them.
Oh I agree, I'm really not a fan of NIMBYism.
if l'm not still shadowbanned across the board. We are not in a "climate crisis" we are in an ENERGY crisis. With ever increasing demands on the surviving Power Generators in Australia we are going to end up like California, reliant ONLY on electricity, then being told to not use your air conditioners, or charge your cars or cook on your electric stove because, oops too late, load shedding, no power for you.
l laugh at how undereducated todays "yoof" is, they think electricity magically comes from that hole filled thing in the wall where you plug in your charger.
no no, we definitley are in a climate crisis. The climate crisis issue isn't even up for debate at the moment. We have a scientific consesus, that there is a scientific consensus. We know the climate is changing, and we know we're the causing it.
It is a valid concern that renewables are less reliable than fossil fuels, but fossil fuels aren't reliable either. It was natural gas plants failing that caused the texas power grid failure not long ago, not renewables. Even if we ignore that example, large scale grid interconnections and energy storage systems are going to ensure that renewables beat fossil fuels not only in price, but reliability and generation.
Also, I don't know what 'yoof' you're talking to, but most people my age (early 20s) are fairly knowledgable, and know basic things like how electricity works. I was even taught how power generation works in primary school. If you're talking about believing in climate change as 'undereducated', again, the evidence for climate change is overwhelming.
P.S. You're not shadow banned, this didn't even appear in my 'held for review' section
@@CityConnectionsMedia wow, fully brainwashed by the establishment. 1/Plymouth Rock, 400 years in the same place and it gets moistened at high tide. look it up.
2/ "scientific consensus" like the scientific consensus about "safe and effective"..
3/the U.N. (headed by a whitewashed Ethiopian terrorist), filled with UNELECTED bureaucrats funded by "vested interests" "partnered with" Google to slew climate change search results because "the U.N. "owns the science" on climate change".. SO, UNELECTED BUREAUCRATS , like those who peddled the whole covid thing, are to be trusted about THIS?
4/ dig deeper than the data those same agenda pushers are shoveling and see for yourself, prior to the Younger Dyas cataclysm the world was heating up and we were plunged back into an ice age that we are still recovering from.
5/ in earths history the planet was HOTTER and GREENER, plants need CO2 to survive, the more CO2 the greener the planet, the obscenely wealthy have invested great sums of capital into renewable energy, they want a return on their investments what ever the costs.. wake up before it's too late buddy.
ps, you are one of the rare ones who remembers what they were indoctrinated with at school.. so, when they shut down all the power generators and we have to rely on "unreliable, yet to be perfected, renewables and everybody is told to "not charge your cars or power your air conditioners today because of excess load concerns" (california case in point), you can always rub two sticks together to light a fire now they took your gas stove because "global warming"
this is nothing but MORE CONTROLLING THE PEASANTS.. (think the first "ANTS" movie.). "this isn't about the FOOD, it's about SECURING OUR WAY OF LIFE" says the obscenely wealthy who have been conditioned to believe Malthusian politics that "we are going to "run out" of "things" so we need to cull the minions".
1) So? A rock by the sea gets wet? I don't know what that's relevant to?
2) Consensus that what is 'safe and effective'? I'm presuming you mean vaccines, more specifically covid vaccines, in which case yes, they are safe and effective. If anything that's proven by the fact that whenever a minor issue arose, there was an investigation and occassionally the vaccine was recalled.
3) The current leader of the UN is Portugese, and the previous one was South Korean? Unless you're refering to the current leader of the WHO, who is Ethiopian, but the WHO is not the UN, it is part of the UN.
Also, the UN doesn't do climate research (at least directly), it only coordinates research from national and private organisations. You might be getting confused with the IPCC, which is part of the UN and discusses climate change issues. What I want to ask you, is what reason would they have to lie? What does the UN, alongside almost every nation and scientist on the planet have to gain from faking climate change? If it's control, why focus on reducing pollution? Why not do what China or Russia do?
4) I'm not sure if that's true, although I'm not a climate scientist by education.
5) Depending on the era, that's true. It is also true that plants do like CO2, but the problem is everything has limits. Humans need oxygen, but if you put us in a pure oxygen environment, we die. It's the same with plants. Our modern plants evolved in certain atmospheric conditions, so changing that has negative impacts on them.
The obscenly wealthy have also invested great sums into fossil fuels? if anything more so. The richest person in Australia is a mining magnate after all.
I'm not sure being told how a coal fired power station works is indoctrination, but okay.
How is trying to transition to a power source that pollutes less about control? Renewables work, and they're on par with fossil fuels. The only reason we're having issues with renewables at the moment is because changing an entire power grid is not an easy task. So of course there's issues. It's not like it can't be done, some regions are getting close, like Europe.
Also, the gas stove thing is weird. That was just a proposal by a democrat in the US (iirc) and now a bunch of conservatives world wide have taken that as 'the left is coming for your gas stove'. No one talks about that. I have a gas stove, it's fine, I would prefer an induction one though, but that's just because it's more efficient and pollutes less. The transition to electric stoves is going to happen simply because it's cheaper and better for the environment.
Final note, there is no such thing as infinite growth on a finite planet. We are overusing our planets resources, and we need to reduce consumption. While that's true, there's not real indication that the 'elites' are considering a 'purge of the proles'. There is a strong argument to change our economic system to not focus as much on economic growth, and to crack down on billionaire elites, because yeah, they have too much power.
Rebuild it exactly like is was another stupid decision by the NSW government of the day to close this beautiful line.😠
This line should be re-open this take many cars off the roads that are over crowed.
Great thought.