Something to reiterate; but there's no shame in not finding all the solutions. Most players won't. However, what I'm getting it is how a lot of players also struggle with the Gargoyles. A lot of players have no idea what kindling or reverse hollowing does, etc. But generally speaking, when people ask about these things the community can be trusted to explain them well and give good advice on their options. The situation with the Capra Demon often doesn't quite play out the same, though. So I think a lot of people in the comments are bewildered saying "you're expecting players to find the stealth options?" I mean, some players will. Most won't. I think poise and Aural Decoy are more reasonable, but we're kind of straying from the point. Which is that the broader community, when giving advice on how to handle the Capra Demon, don't really approach it through the lens of a puzzle encounter with a singular main problem to be solved. That is very clear if you've been present in the discourse over the years. "It requires luck", & "just cheese it" are really popular recommendations in a way that's kind of without parallel to other parts of the game. There's a wide variety of options that are reasonable to get post-Undead Parish and very easy to execute on, but the broader community often glosses over these and that's what I'm critical of. Some are criticizing me for knowing the game too well and being able to approach the fight through the lens of hindsight, but I think being able to learn from the game and look back at the fight with a fresh perspective, particularly when it comes to engaging with others in the community, is fine and even the most reasonable thing to do. I'm also learning how many people are adamant that it's unlikely for someone to explore the Darkroot Garden before the Lower Burg. The non-linear nature of the game means all sorts of things can happen and of course some people won't bother with Darkroot first. But I think people are genuinely way off base to think that doing the Moonlight Butterfly or Hydra before the Capra Demon is some huge stretch. That is a completely normal way to play the game and happens all the time.
"struggle with capra? just kill the hydra" this is like the worst advice possible to a melee player and the titanite demon lets many new players think that the area behind is a late game area that you're not supposed to explore yet, if they actually intended for you to go to darkroot garden before capra then it's terrible gamedesign the gargoyles are a good example of a roadblock unlike capra, because the gargoyles are actually fun to fight against with any build and they have their clear attack patterns that you can actually practice to dodge consistently, without being your average 1v1 generic swordfight. you still have to watch out for their dangerous fire breath and for the roofs edge
I like to watch playthroughs of my favorite games, and I've probably seen around ten first-time DS1 players attempt the Capra Demon. I have literally never seen anyone have an _"Aha, THIS is how I'm supposed to do it!"_ Taurus Demon puzzle-esque revelation to resolve the encounter. Overwhelmingly, they spend their first half-dozen attempts getting stunlocked and camera-fucked in the first few seconds of entering the room, get increasingly frustrated by the disproportionate runback, eventually figure out that they should be aiming for the staircase, and spend another half-dozen attempts trying to get lucky and roll through the three attacking enemies. It's how I first did it, it's how most players first do it, and heck, I'm willing to bet it's how you first did it. In the end, if the Capra Demon fight is really "supposed" to be approached in the way you claim, the most we can say is that the encounter fucking sucks at conveying to players how it is "supposed" to be approached.
I did Deep Root before Capra so I grabbed the Boulder shield, and the stone armor to muscle my way through as soon a realized I was just going to spammed, that said, I learned this from getting spammed by the shrubs/hollows/etc. that looove spamming you, that said unlike stealth, poise dosn't help against the thieves who will just spam backstabs and laugh at your corpse.
"Some are criticizing me for knowing the game too well and being able to approach the fight through the lens of hindsight, but I think being able to learn from the game and look back at the fight with a fresh perspective, particularly when it comes to engaging with others in the community, is fine and even the most reasonable thing to do." That's the thing though, people are talking about how the fight is on a first playthrough, most players will not have half that level of knowledge on a first blind playthrough. As for players visiting Darkroot early, even if a player does or doesn't I don't think It's reasonable to expect brand new players to go, kill the hydra AND reload the area to meet dusk just to have a better chance against the capra demon I really don't think the experimentation with the stealth and Aural decoy was something they expected players to do, as I feel (or at least would hope) they would have made the alluring skulls work as baiting enemies is their entire purpose. The run back to the boss arena and the fact the game never tries to convey the fact that it's a puzzle fight are also at odds with wanting players to try different approaches I think It's cool you're trying to offer a different perspective on the fight, but these examples really feel like just a few cheese strategies that someone very familiar with the game & It's mechanics can come up with in hindsight and not something that's reasonable to expect from people on their first playthrough
Another reason why Alluring Skulls should work: the game has already made an attempt to teach you how to use them. There are a lot of ways to handle the armored boar in the Undead Parish, but one of the most effective is Alluring Skulls, which they even placed as an item pickup in the same room as the boar. So making them work on the dogs would not only reward thinking of a clever solution, but it rewards remembering the tool you used the last time you had an an extremely aggressive and seemingly insurmountable enemy and trying it again in a similar situation.
@@JulesVonBasslake They really like to make the distraction spells more effective than the items overall. The same goes for Dark Souls 2, where Yearn works on a LOT more enemies than the Alluring Skull (yet the Alluring Skull works on a few things Yearn doesn't, like a heavily asymmetrical venn diagram). But yeah I always thought they overdid the distinction between the two, and it bites us in the ass the most in the Capra fight.
@@avramlevitter6150 Knowing this, it kinda feels like you were supposed to use alluring skulls, but there was a miscommunication somewhere along the way with how they actually work.
@@illusorywall It feels like they were trying to make the spell "worthwhile". As in, what would be the point of using the spell slot on Decoy as opposed to just buying Skulls. But it trips on itself by missing that a slot is a pretty decent price to pay for free Skulls, especially since it's not a spell that really needs to be constantly slotted. I think it would have been fine if the spell and skull were the exact same thing. Heck, Decoy is even at a massive discount even if you use it only once, 20 uses for 1000. Skulls are 500 a pop.
Capra demon finally escaped the hellhole of Izalith and settled in town, only for a vagabond undead to kill his dogs and finally take his life too, we truly live in a society.
I don't have much to complain, but the biggest issue I see with this fight is how it starts: When you cross the fogwall the camera gets placed between the wall and players head, everything being covered by thick smog. You can barely see the Capra Demon lunging at you, followed with the dogs. If the fight had more room so you would see the elements of the puzzle, it would work better in my opinion.
@@scottcaramel If you just watch IW's video you can see for yourself that you have time to walk at least 2 steps forward before the boss even starts attacking. Your reply got a lot of likes for something factually incorrect.
@@TheSkyfolk while that is true, I think that in practice that is irrelevant without being told about it, because who the fuck enters into a boss room and decides to just stand completly still? Anyone is going to continue walking forward so 2 steps of space might as well be nothing.
I've never considered the Capra Demon to be among the worst bosses of ds1, but if it was supposed to be a puzzle boss, it very much failed at it. All of the solutions brought up in the video are satisfying to use and are part of what makes these games & their bosses so fun, but they are not close to intuitive. Stealth is a pretty under-baked mechanic in dark souls, especially dark souls 1, and when bosses ignore stealth spells, who is going to think that bosses minions are going to be different? Aural Decoy is, as a spell, much stronger than the vast majority of players probably ever think of it, but the failure of the alluring skulls definitely make it less obvious that an already overlooked spell would counter the boss. Dusk is also, much more of a missable character than you might think, because once you defeat the Hydra and find nothing in the cove behind it, why would you ever return after reloading? Lastly for the spells, I don't think the average player, if they aren't already playing an intelligence caster, would ever consider looking into the spell lists of merchants unless they are truly desperate to try anything but brute force. With the ring of fog, especially if someone isn't interested in PvP multiplayer, it is so obscure to obtain that it barely makes the cut as an answer to the boss. Poise doesn't really feel like outsmarting the encounter, it just feels like brute forcing through an annoying enemy placement. It's the most popular option because it's the most intuitive, and is a natural progression to the strategies used before putting on heavier armor. This is why, I think, that the support online for people struggling with this boss are so quick to throw in the towel and call the boss broken, and suggest cheese. The mechanics the Capra Demon is weakest to are so obscure and awkward that they are not only strategies unlikely to be used by first time players, but unlikely to be thought of by players on their second or third playthroughs. Players might put in hundreds of hours before knowing that Aural Decoy is better than alluring skulls, and at that point, are so skilled, they wouldn't ever think to use it.
If the Capra Demon wasn't a boss fight, and was instead just a room full of enemies you could see into beforehand, it wouldn't have the reputation that it does
Or if it just wasn't "required" to enter the Depths. If you could find an alternate route to the depths by searching the area thoroughly (or even just running in and grabbing the key, rather than killing Capra), people wouldn't have minded it as much because you didn't actually "have to" win it.
@@xyouthe mostly so, yeah. the other part is also tied into it with people liking to have a static experience that they control the pace of with their friends, as invasions are a wrench in that control that you have to go out of your way to get unstuck and proceed as per your original plans. a dumb example but one that may be more easily understood: 2 dfriends are streaming a souls game in co-op, they kinda stop playing for a moment to discuss something the chat pointed out or to simply live the moment, maybe do some roleplay or whatever(supririsngly more common than you might think), but they have to either go their separate ways world-wise or just be ready for the fact that sooner or later their moment will be interrupted. it's not the end of the world but for some people that's annoying enough to hate pvp in general, especially as then other reasons creep up to, most notably, the fact that the rewards hosts get from engaging into a fight with an invader are often so poor you might as well just kill yourself and summon your friend again instead, if you don't like to play the pvp. (opinions and ideas of a pvper btw, mostly am a duelist tho, invasions in ER kinda suck so i did much less of those)
I think the biggest issue for most people is that all 3 enemies in the arena aggro instantly, like the fog gate is even still blocking half the screen when they are already on top of you. There's no strategizing or analyzing possible in the first couple attempts because you have just no time processing what's available to you. edit: it's like having to solve a puzzle but you're only allowed to take a look at it for 5 seconds and then you have to take a guess and if the answer is wrong you have to do 10 pushups until you get to take another short look at the puzzle.
Maybe there should be a spot with a grate or something you can look through to preview the fight. Like how you can see the stray demon from the start of the game, but rather than just building anticipation, a canny player can also use the view to strategize.
This also makes the Aural Decoy strat less viable, really. The fight starts and the capra demon is immediately attacking you + one or both of the dogs aggro-ing as well makes getting aural decoy out *before* you run up the stairs (which was one the the points in the video) really difficult without also using either the stealth or poise strategy in tandem. If the arena was a bit longer so that the dogs at least don't aggro immediately and instead only hear 'something' and slowly walk up to investigate instead of charging you instantly it would give players more time to a) assess the situation and b) use aural decoy. And alluring skulls, if we're already changing things. I agree with IllusoryWall that alluring skulls not working on the dogs is bs. It was something i actually tried against Capra.
I think the reason people don't suggest those ideas is that they would never think of them. Why would stealth or a distraction work when you're actively in a boss fight? It works mechanically but not logically, and a lot of players don't know those mechanics. I personally never know how much poise will help in any situation so for me this boss always had to be a skill challenge.
I agree the stealth is a little out of the way and unlikely to be something a new player does, especially meeting dusk since killing the Hydra is probably harder than Capra if you ask me. Poise is definitely a good option which makes the fight way easier and the player might have some. Just the Wolf Ring would dramatically reduce the difficulty. Also you've been dealing with groups the whole time up to this point so it should be more obvious that a staircase is going to be a decent choke point.
@@kie2it's funny because the Hydra has just 2 attacks and the head attack can be shielded fully and safely counter by just standing still. By all means, the Hydra is easier, it just looks more intimidating.
I've completely played through the game twice now. I still do not know enough about the mechanics of the game to know that 21 poise is the magic number to block a dog. The game teaches you next to nothing about how anything works.
That is also fair, if you already know the gimmick in advance, it's kind of lame and easy, but so is that true of a lot of fights. Playing it blind and trying to figure out what has changed when the boss HP bar appears is like a game of Where's Waldo.
I know this was intended as a joke, but I honestly think that's a defensible position! I could see a take on godskin as a puzzle boss, given the number of pillars you can use to disarm several attacks and isolate them, and the overall difficulty (compared to other bosses) of fighting both at once. This is unlike O&S in DS1 where their movesets were tolerable for a 2v1, and weren't so difficult to just win in a head-on fight.
i mean i wouldnt use the word puzzle, but everything in every souls game is a trial to overcome. how you do it is up to you. you can do it the easy way, the normal way, or the hard way. souls games are not hard
If you're gonna argue that it's a puzzle fight, my counterpoint is that if you're doing a puzzle fight, you need to give the player more than 2 seconds to assess the situation before they die.
But you do have it, you can stack several deaths to figure out what to do, or maybe you do it first, second or third try by rolling. It is unrealistic to expect people who have been playing the game up to that point to already be so good that they realise positioning/a good roll are good enough. If you treat this as a puzzle, then you, as a being unable to really die, have to count your lives as chips at the poker table. You can figure it out bit by bit.
@@BygoneT forcing the player to die within the first 2 seconds with a two minute long runback constantly to learn how to cheese a boss is bad game design
Why tho? I dont think there are hard rules for this kind of thing or for games in general. Instead of looking at as a "boss fight" designed with the player in mind, I prefer to look at it as a real encounter in the world, If you enter someone else's home or hideout after killing everyone outside, they will probably ambush you, if they have guard dogs they will probably send them at you. The Capra Demon always felt like one of the most authentic encounters with a Demon in one of these games for me, it doesnt just stand there menacingly waiting for you, it gives the illusion that it is thinking, and is actually concerned about its own safety. The fight can be frustating, but thats why we are undead, we can try again and again and learn, the Capra Demon only has 1 life, so it does everything it can to survive.
@@scottcaramel "forcing", nobody forces anything, many people killed him on their first try. To me it doesnt matter if its "bad game design" based on some arbitrary rules someone else that didnt develop the game made up. If you or me were in a similar situation to the Capra demon we would probably behave similarly, if someone killed all my neighbors and barged into my house I would ambush them and immedietly attack before they have a chance to, I would also probably send my dogs to attack as well if I had guard dogs. My point is that makes the boss feels real, like its trying to survive no matter what, the satisfaction of winning is much greater imo when you get the feeling the boss is really trying instead of obviously holding back for "fairness" like the Taurus Demon. So to me, the authentic experience is far more important than if the game is "fair", we are undead, we are the most OP, we can die over and over and come back with new knowledge, The bosses dont have this adventage so of course they should try to survive and win at all cost, like we would act in real life.
@@I-Rex232 yeah, but this isn't the real world. it's a video game. it's a piece of media meant to entertain. when you make a movie, you don't include scenes of the characters going to the bathroom because it's realistic.
My one counter to the main argument of this video is that the Boss itself doesn't give you time to think let alone experiment. When you mentioned that stealth was an option I genuinely had my mind blown. Since you get attacked so fast (before the fog even clears) I always thought all enemies immediately notice you on enter making stealth useless. If the fight gave us just a few seconds to let us observe the environment/monsters before getting attacked then I think the point of the fight would be WAY clearer.
Dark Souls 2 actually improved this in a way. There's a spot that apes the design of this corridor in DS2. However, instead of walking into it, you descend down with a ladder. So you can preemptively see all the threats. Ofc, it wasn't for a boss fight... but it's a neat conceptual improvement.
IMO, it shouldn't even be a boss fight. This encounter could've been so much better if it was a bit like a Armoured Boar encounter. In which you can clearly see placement of an enemies, that they are dangerous if you''ll fight them head on, but a possibility of a smart solution
You're supposed to think about it after you die, not in the middle of the chaos. That said, even with the options available, most of them are very cryptic. Who would think to use Hush or Hidden Body so the dogs don't come after you? It's definitely An Option, but the Poise option seems to be the most logical out of the suggestions.
Another big thing is it doesn't look like a puzzle boss. There's no dev provided cheese button. So people look at it through the lens of a standard boss fight. A la Taurus demon. As a standard boss fight, it is poorly laid out. As a puzzle boss, it's not bad. My solution was upgrade my baemore as much as possible, have just enough poise to tank a dog hit and one shot the mutts with a sweeping attack. Didn't even see the stairs. Lol
I feel like this point is really, really hurt by Alluring Skulls not working here. It's the only method you're almost guaranteed to have come across by the time you reach to this point, it _makes sense_ from the item description that it would work, and nevertheless, it doesn't. Even as far as puzzle/gimmick fights go, this one is still far from my favorite. :S Considering this was still DS1 though, that's not a surprise. From is known to experiment, and this was still very early days for the genre.
Yeah I feel like alluring skulls not working honestly kneecaps the premise of this video. If we must accept this is a "puzzle" boss, then its simply not a very good one.
I agree, alluring skull is the item you will have found and might have tested as a new player in just about every reasonable first play progression path. All of the other solutions require more in-depth knowledge of the game. Most of the other suggested items are in areas you probably won't find access to that early in your first playthrough, unless you were fooling around a lot with the master key as starting gift, or if you were crazy enough to take on the entire graveyard at low level and somehow survived the catacombs after that.
i would never have considered aural decoy precisely *because* alluring skulls don't work; i tried the skulls ages ago, and also made the obvious assumption that aural decoy's effect was identical - it's a surprise that it's not
It's an odd choice, but for some reason they want the distraction spells to be vastly more effective than the equivalent consumables. In Dark Souls 1 there's a LOT of enemies that Aural Decoy works on that the Skulls don't (most things that aren't a boss), and I'm pretty sure it doesn't work the other way around at all (literally 0 enemies where the skulls work but decoy doesn't). In Dark Souls 2, they did make the skulls work on a few enemies that Yearn doesn't, but overall the list of enemies that Yearn works on is still much larger.
@@illusorywall I think you missed their point. While alluring skulls are less effective than their spell equivalent, there is also the fact that the way in which the games teach you how to use such items is far from how you suggest using them in the capra fight. My assumption was that aural decoy and such were only useful when the enemies weren't aggro'd, meaning you'd have to build your playstyle and loadout around stealth (something I and most people don't tend to do in these games) and as such we wouldn't even bother testing the limit of an item that seems optional and not really part of our build.
@@authenticbaguette6673 i don't think any point was missed that needed particular attention - there were interesting things to be said about the broader effectiveness of the spell and not much to be said about how obtuse it is and it _is_ quite obtuse, but ... so is most of the game; it's almost to be expected at this point, ha
Sister Friede’s invisibility was a much more engaging puzzle to learn across three different phases than having to use specific items for a fight against three basic enemies in a game where you can’t respec.
I hate her dogwater hitbox on that thing though. Also, the ploof of dust or snow where she lands is often a lie, since you can run over there and she isnt actually there. She also has probably the most insane heat seeking follow up attack, where she can turn on a dime and catch you no matter what. visually a great fight but god I hate her mechanics a lot.
the only experimenting I did when I was new was start a new character lmao (1st playthrough thief was a huge mistake). either route sucks to do a runback with: big long aqueduct run or dog alley. each is probably like a minute of pure running if you know how to dodge and run past, if you're new, you kill everyone and it takes you like 3.
The reddit threads tell a huge story. No new player is going to know about Dusk and Hidden Body without looking it up. The thing about a puzzle is using the pieces in front of you. Going out of your way to get items that the new player doesn't know about just doesn't work. That's why the stairs and poise are most often recommended, because the new player will most likely already have those options available to them. I think you're glazing the boss design a little too much
Some new player had to discover Dusk and Hidden Body for any players to even know about them. They're not as likely to be options a player has when first fighting the Capra Demon, but they're not some impossible secrets.
IW is truly the bravest one of us all. No one else in the FromSoft community is sticking their neck out with takes so hot you have to measure them in trillions of kelvins. That being said... I don't know, man. One of my friends recently did Capra on their first-ever dark souls stream and I just feel that the alternatives you posed are something only a person with experience and intimate knowledge of the game would do. Aside from poise. My friend figured out poise all by themselves 🤝. But the wolf ring? Trading the skull lantern? Picking up spell casting? I feel like there's a bit of telegraphing missed to let the player know this is a puzzle fight. I just feel that Occam's razor points towards Capra needing a little more time in the oven (like many things in dark souls) rather than him being secretly a puzzle boss. Love your content. Thank you for making me and all my friends argue about Capra on Discord 💖
@@nanabobo567No, Kelvin and Celsius increase at the same rate, it’s just that 0 Kelvin is absolute zero while 0 Celsius is the freezing point of water. If we assume that the trillions of Kelvin/Celcius are the same number then the trillions of Celcius are about 273 degrees warmer than the trillions of Kelvin
My stance is that Capra Demon is a puzzle fight, with the intended solution being abusing the stairs. All other solutions are probably incidental, knowing From.
I think Capra *is* a puzzle fight, but also was a failed attempt at one. One of the biggest things you miss here is that IW is calling out the community for not talking about the other possible solutions, specifically when players are asking for help. Like a new player should be able to figure this out, and that's because the tutorial doesn't teach them well enough about this stuff for them to figure it out. So then the community is next line of defense to teach players, and they just... aren't. Which is the entire point. like, veterans of the game, who aren't IW, who know better about this stuff, aren't telling new players who are seeking help about this.
I think part of the problem is that as you are going through the fog gate, the capra demon is already winding up an attack. Particles are still blocking part of the screen when the attack HITS. Players aren't given the opportunity to think about a solution, they are just flattened, then thoroughly walled in by dogs and demon leaving no room to walk. That leap will even guard break so same result if you block without serious build effort. Part of a good puzzle fight is to give you time to think and solve that puzzle. Instead you need to spam roll before you even see what is going on, and then probably get trapped anyways. Something to change would be adding a little flourish animation or even wait timer to the capra demon, so you can see it before it reacts to you and attacks.
I feel like all of these big brain ideas only come about after you've completed the game once and understand how the world interconnects. Someone's first time playthrough isn't going to think out of the box like this unless they look it up online.
I think poise is perfectly within the box. It's things like beelining to Hydra, insisting on killing it, and reloading the area to discover Dusk that are a bit unrealistic.
@@ChristopherWaddelow That's fair but without knowing more about the game there's no way to know where to go or what to do to improve that aside from leveling. Again on a normal playthrough. Once you've gone through it once the game opens up and makes more sense on what options you actually have
@@Deekman Yeah, you make a good point, and upon thinking about your point, I feel putting a Capra style fight later in the game may have solved some of the problems with it. Or perhaps made him a little easier to deal with and adding a harder version later So for instance, perhaps a double capra and torous fight. Or something like that later
But that what makes DS1 great in it's own way. It often rewards you for thinking outside the box. Aural decoy is so incredibly strong, if a new player were to experiment and learn to use it before capra, it makes the fight stupid easy. If new players insist on using nothing but the weapon they upgraded, well, I won't say they're playing wrong, but they're not exploring the game effectively.
While I agree that Capra Demon isn't about luck, I don't think it's about a puzzle with multiple answers either. Honestly, poise is the only good advise to deal with Capra Demon, especially when talking about ppl playing DS1 for the first time. Telling them to "just equip heavy armor and go to the stairs" is WAY easier then telling them to kill the hydra (way harder then Capra) and the crystal golem just to get a invisibility spell. Diversion would've been good too if alluring skulls worked, but having to use a spell that you can only get after getting a random key from a merchant that you can miss isn't the best option.
He said "is not that hard to get the invisibility" and I completely disagree, fighting the hydra in the lake is more difficult than like 80% of the bosses imo. And dusk is not a particularly easy to find character.
Aural decoy for sorcerers, or even just cantrip users. It's such a small intel/attunement investment to add great utils to any build. I agree poise+stairs is the most common, but aural decoy isn't more of a commitment than stacking some poise and makes the fight just as easy. Many new players buy the key for Griggs, because keys look important. To setup some effective poise you'd still have to go to darkroot, unless you started with one of the 2 classes that have poise from the get go.
@@WitchLuna7 Fighting the hydra is very easy because its AI is so simple. But I'll give you, it is extremely intimidating the first few times. It definitely turned me away the first time.
@@WitchLuna7 it definitely feels like gloating from someone with 1000 hours in the game. cool strategy, how about for day 1 players when the DLC didn't exist
the two big point i'd say you miss out with the mentality of this arguments are: 1. capra demon for a lot of people, will be the 4th boss they encounter, outside of gargoyles, which still have double to triple the length before your in major danger, the other bosses give you time to look around and work out what what your doing. not having that is what immediately makes people panic and encounter all the issues you've stated they run in to (stuck in corners, general fear of the boss, etc.). normally in a situation where newer players get jumped like this, their first reaction is to run back and work out what is going on, which is obviously impossible in a boss. 2. new players won't know about any of the strategies that they could use to make the fight easier, with the only exception being the skulls which don't work, so even if someone tries that, they'll just safely assume "its a boss, I've just got to learn how to fight it" and never attempt anything to make it easier. you do mention not running into one or two of them, but for all of them people aren't that likely to understand it by this point. reason people state luck for the boss so often, is outside of spam trying the boss often enough to learn boss / dog movement, or literally copying the exact moves of someone from a video, theres not really a method to explain how to avoid the dogs and capra demon reliably in text, and most people will succeed the boss by a "lucky attempt" at getting up the stairs, which is what they'll think of when it comes to this boss, since the rest of the boss is so easy, you generally win by the time you manage to avoid the dogs. for improving the boss, I would have made the capra demon come out of the gutter area behind him with raising / lowering bars, and have the dogs burst through doors at their area to start, which would still give players the panic period, but actually give players (particularly new ones) a few seconds to realise their situation before gutting them. people enjoy crosswords, but don't enjoy crosswords that gut them 3 seconds after opening them if they haven't already started writing. not hating on your opinions about this, just what i've thought after watching. differing opinions is good.
Capra literally tells you “git gud” , he is the quintessence of dark souls. You need to be able to be in a non-panic mindset to beat the game. How I see it, it turns a “new player” into a “player” with all the tools needed to beat the game.
everything you said 100%, as a new player you're getting blitzed instantly and in a small enough room where the camera is as much of a threat as the boss. the camera never really returns as an enemy again until phase 1 of nameless king. if you struggled against a second gargoyle, a second enemy halfway through the fight, then you'll love 4 enemies from the start. so you die so quickly you don't even know what's going on. plus the run back sucks. you die very quickly, run back possibly dying again or taking a lot of damage, and then try to figure out what hap- dead again, and you never got your souls back. once you figure out, it's a fun, fair fight. but 'figuring it out' sucks. it's not about learning a boss' pattern and timing like for other bosses, for capra you can do that your first real try. it's how long it takes to get to that first real try. fromsoft had so much faith in this boss design that future bosses/games all have giant arenas and simpler run backs.
The capra demon doesn't behave like a puzzle boss and isn't presented like a puzzle boss. Souls puzzle bosses almost always have a much clearer 'trick' to them which is usually pretty hard to play around. I'm not convinced that the stealth or distraction mechanics are even intended interactions - stealth which can be broken if you move more than a little way into the boss arena, and distraction that only works using one specific method and is dramatically less effective if you happen to aim at the floor? These could be intentional, but it seems just as likely that these are unintended oversights as the dung pie cheese (or maybe the dung pie cheese is also completely intended).
How should it be a oversight? What i think is a oversight that the alluring skull is not working here. I really don't go with you argument, that the distraction and stealth is not intended, i think the dog positions are because of stealth.
This is coming from someone who probably knows more about some aspects of these games than the devs themselves after all these years. He's vastly underestimating how hard it is for a begginer to think of these things (specially buying a spell from Dusk, a very obscure NPC). Most people also are going to die in their first few tries before understanding what the fuck is going on, and having two massive runbacks to cover. It can be very frustrating.
@darq7000 I mean literally, the fight as it is is an oversight. The dogs shouldn't be there when the Capra Demon is, they're set up to be only spawned when the boss is defeated, but due to a bug they spawn in anyways. The dogs being in the fight is literally an oversight. One that has never been patched out, probably due to liking the results, but a bug nonetheless
@@aprinnyonbreak1290 That is an interesting view but don't see the argument for that. Almost nowhere in the game spawn enemies in a boss room so that point for me is not very convincing. For what reason should there spawn dogs after the fight? Also the dogs don't aggro immediately it you use hidden body, this look for me intended.
I think what really betrays this fight is the run back. It's not the worst run back in the game by any stretch, but the fact that you might just die immediately your first couple times makes it a LOT more frustrating. If you could just hop right back in and try stuff right away, it'd probably be a lot less of a pain. Though this isn't a unique problem with this boss either, and I think also makes the bed of chaos more frustrating than it could've been too, and honestly I'm glad they started dropping the run backs for the most part in later games like Sekiro and Elden Ring.
The runbacks were always my least favorite aspect of the series. They only brought frustration and and a chore-like feeling to the game imo. And I'm not one of those "I play these games for the bosses" kinda people, but once I reach the fogwall I would like to try the boss right away (like stakes of Marika). It's controversial and and a lot of people like them, but removing runbacks was by far my favorite change introduced in Elden Ring.
I agree with your analysis. However, I believe you miss one particular and incredibly important element. You approach the topic from the perspective of a veteran, who knows the items, mechanics so experimenting with combinations is exciting. I believe the reason so many people find this frustrating because it is early in the game and coupled with DS' rather cryptic mechanics it makes it seem misplaced. In short you're telling people what a fantastic puzzle it is when most havent even understood that they must go and buy a puzzle at the store to then proceed to solve it.
Totaly agree. The most sane comment here. Who knew about the Wolf ring before fighting Capra on their first run? Who understood how to use stealth so early in their playthrough? I think it's very few people
I don't fully agree with this, and I think it's to do with how players nowadays approach a game like Dark Souls. I very clearly remember being fully immersed in the game when I first picked it up WAY BACK in the day, and taking mental notes of what spells do what, reading all the descriptions, and the care I took in the game being intrinsic to the experience. In a way it made it harder because I had to rely on "gimmick mechanics", having to think of what I can do instead of simply hoping I'll get a good luck run or farming (I did some), or looking up a cheese guide. I didn't think that I could simply learn how to "dodge good", and that'd be the end of every problem in every encounter ever, but that's unfortunately the approach a lot of people take after having played DS3 and Elden Ring (even Bloodborne and Sekiro to some extent), since those games leaned more heavily on combat and action. TL;DR, I think people need to shut off their guides, stop listening to pretend-vets, and start being more attentive
Honestly I'm not sure I agree with this assessment of the fight, sure they work in *theory* but even as someone who is pretty big on DS1, I didn't know one of these spells existed, ring of fog is unreasonable to expect I feel, I never naturally found the wolf ring on my first run nor intuited poise as a solution and I wasn't playing a spellcaster. These solutions sound cool on paper but the fact is the average player isn't going to think of these strategies, and in general I'm not really a fan of these 'lock and key' style puzzles, in any game really let alone dark souls. There's a reason Capra is generally maligned (and I *like* capra). Many design ideas sound great on paper but when you watch someone actually play they often end up being unable to intuit these things, and I think you have to design around how people *actually* play not how you want them to play. I will say I 100% agree that turning Capra into a more conventional boss would absolutely suck, I think the appeal of it for me is a terrifying beast you're cornered with in a tight space. I think focusing on that aspect would be more to its benefit than making it a 'bring the key' puzzle in a game with a million little keys. Especially since afaik no other boss in ds1 really does the whole key > door design. That said I respect the point and it's gotten me thinking about things with Capra I hadn't before so kudos.
I think you're retroactively attributing an unnecessary lot of depth to a boss that is only a puzzle boss in hindsight. A new player doesn't think "Oh, I walked into the arena and got two seconds to glance at a goat demon's ballsack before being gangbanged? Hmm, how do I solve this problem." The telegraphing isn't there to allow this to be a fair exchange. Contrast to something like the Old Hero fight in Demon's Souls where you are given time to examine the mechanics. You could apply this kind of knowledge of game mechanics to any boss to make it solvable and call it a puzzle when you already have all the pieces; Capra Demon is just rushed. No pun intended.
if you die alot to a boss you can call it an "unfair fight" or try to see if you are missing something, people keep smashing their heads on the wall and expecting things to go different. And as someone who has played ds1 for the first time recently i know that feeling, capra was easy for me, but nito gave me alot of trouble until i understand that his attacks kills his own minions, so i used that to my advantage and killed the boss.
i don't agree. capra is not the only puzzle fight in the game. fromsoft deviates from their typical "get good" bosses pretty frequently with gimmick and puzzle bosses like this.
I see your point, but I think it has to do with the person playing the game and their experiences. There was another comment here that i saw that put it really well. Ive tried to paraphrase what they said here: Players coming from Zelda and other similar games that have learned that certain fights have clear and correct “solutions”, will take that experience (walking throught the fog wall and dying immediately), and think that there must be some kind of trick to the fight. Essentially that taking it head on cant be correct because of that first experience. They would also be very open to diversifying their options and trying on different rings or using different spells (or even spells at all). Other players, and especially players coming from the later games, would think of the fight as just that, a fight. Something they can win via direct application of skill and learning patterns, and thus would not even consider that they have other options, which could easily be read as “unfair” when they lose and “getting lucky” when they win. However that’s not all to say that I disagree that there is probably a degree of retroactively attributing levels of depth to the fight that might not be there, but without asking Miyazaki himself we can only speculate on the thought behind it and provide as much advice as we can for newbies.
It really isn't a puzzle boss. It's a difficult ambush encounter that for some godforsaken reason was turned into a boss fight. The fog gate makes it worse.
@@asdergold1 yep. it fails to demonstrate itself as a puzzle boss (because it really isnt) so poorly that 99% of players either just brute force it or use google and find the firebomb cheese. it is honestly just a monster closet poise/rng check. to me if capra is a puzzle boss so is gargoyles. how? well you need enough dps to kill the first one quickly. see how that really isnt much of a puzzle lol.
Most of the proposed solutions expect too much of a first time player at this point in the game. Even understanding poise by this point isn't a given. This compounds with the "well I heard the game is supposed to be hard" issue, which is going to make players assume there isn't some trick they can use to make it easier. The same thing that happens with players going to the graveyard first
@@papabaddad see this is just cool advice you’d give to a returning player on how to do the fight easier. Most people have something like this for some fight in the series. For example; if you’re doing the defiled chalice in Bloodborne, I recommend getting your health stat high and using the shitty shield when you fight the Defiled Watchdog. This makes it so you can survive his infamous one-shot charge that comes out super fast. Simon’s Bowblade is also super useful to break his head against a distance so you can do extra damage. But does that mean Defiled Watchdog is a good boss? Fuck no.
literally all of these things are taught to you or demonstrated to you buy the game long before you reach capra if you havent figured out any of them by that point you really cant complain
In my opinion, the simple fact that alluring skulls don't work is an indication that most of the praise you pointed out about the fight is incidental. If the devs had actually deliberately intended to create a well crafted puzzle fight, this sort of oversight wouldn't have happend.
I completely agree. Was just about to type exactly that before I read your comment. If an item that has previously been used to solve a similar situation of a large intimidating enemy surrounded by smaller fodder enemies doesn't work, an item that is *most likely* to already be in a new player's inventory at that point, then to me that shatters the entire idea that the Capra Demon is some actually clever puzzle boss that you're just misunderstanding. Why try to recreate the boar encounter again so soon, but just make it inferior in every way? I wonder what's next, the bed of chaos is actually a really clever and well designed boss, we just don't get it? Lmao
@@Bulletproof222exactly. Some people go to great lengths to justify the questionable design of certain dark souls 1 encounters. I can bet that from soft just said "just stuff 2 dogs in the small arena next to the boss cause game hard".
The one thing they did heavily tutorialize, ironically, is the one thing that doesn't work on the Capra Demon: Alluring skulls. Those get their own whole part where the game gives them to you right above a blazing fire and an otherwise seemingly impervious enemy eager to run into it. But then alluring skulls don't work the next time the game puts you against enemies you want to distract away from you. It could be taken as a tutorial on making you think about problems in a different way, but then the game doesn't give you any alternatives to alluring skulls. Except it does: Aural decoy. And I think the limiting factor there is that most people would assume aural decoy only works on enemies who don't already see you. Like throwing a rock from stealth to make a noise in other games. Who would expect the rock to take priority over you when you're in plain sight? Or for stealth (like hidden body) to work in a boss fight (especially a close quarters one)? They're assumptions, sure, but they're reasonable assumptions. Great video though, even though aural decoy and hidden body can't really be expected from a reasonably experimental player going in blind, they're great tips that people should've spread around more compared to "cheese it" and "dupe to overlevel".
The point isn't "new players should have guessed xyz", it's "why haven't we as a community been suggesting helpful solutions instead of bypassing the entire point of the fight?" It's extremely common for new players of this game to look online for help, and in this case the advice from seasoned players is extremely lacking
It's a fight that tests your knowledge of the game, in a game that famously opaque when it comes to its mechanics. Your own channel thrives on "This game is 10 years old and we're still learning new things", after all. At the end of the day, I don't think the fight itself is so unreasonable, but I don't appreciate the runback. For a puzzle boss I would prefer a very close bonfire, so the player can concentrate on testing possible solutions.
i think part of why people don't treat it as a puzzle fight is the runback. The run, even from firelink, is still pretty punishing if you want to experiment and try multiple things. Plus there's those stupid dogs right in front of the door
(EDIT: Gonna add that I dont think the stealth/not to stealth choice and its opportunity costs detracts from Dark Souls and Souls-like ARPG's in general. In fact because it pushes you away from bashing your head into this guy once youve lost your souls and gotten really frustrated, youre quite likely to go elsewhere. Thus reinforcing the open and interconnected world design by encouraging you to explore elsewhere and find new avenues for souls/weapons/other items. Maybe even try a new build or starter gift like the Master Key) I love your content and message usually but I just...cant support this one. The Capra Demon having stealth options is almost completely irrelevant because you have to do one or more of: 1) Kill Griggs, one of only a few friendly NPC's in the entire game(or find it in Sen's Fortress after you've already beaten Quelaag) for both his Slumbering ring and Hush 2) Pay 20k souls for the artorias crest, join the Forest Hunter covenant, WIN 3 TIMES against other players in a pvp heavy area. Or trade Snuggly a Skull Lantern which is a 2% drop chance from non-respawning enemies before your guaranteed one in Tomb of Giants, notorious for needing memorization and being unable to get out easily without the lordvessel. 3) Best the hydra AND know that it unlocks Hidden Body after you also go and kill the golden crystal golem to free Dusk for only the visual hiding, and still being vulnerable to the dogs if you arent perfect. At that point you already learned and bested 2 other miniboss type enemies in an area already full of regular crystal golem minibosses, AND you have to run past Basement Havel or the Titanite Demon to even get to the Hydra. So if I was me who was playing Dark Souls back in the 2000's when most things werent known about the game, or just didnt want to be forced to look up boss strategies in modern day...this is just unreasonable. Also Dark Souls 1 didnt really do the best job at giving you incentive to actually make roleplay builds where you limit yourself for flavor. This fight is another example of "either get gud or cheese it" and I will always call out the freedom-limiting game design in a world where its an RPG that you make your own character from scratch in. Youre SUPPOSED to care about your identity in game at least a little bit. A teamup-ambush boss fight as your likely 4th boss encounter...where you are being attacked as soon as you finish your fog-walk animation is just bashing the player over the head with its "overbearing diffuculty for the sake of it" design that The Depths is horribly guilty of as well. It being the required fight to get down there is really telling of what the devs ACTUALLY intended you to do which is go away for a while and level up more, get more hp and upgrades. Other ways to cheese the fight are just that, breaking game mechanics to force a fight in your favor. Not inherently bad, but not game design choices in and of themselves, very often coincidences in how game coding makes enemies behave.
No new player is finding Dusk to use Hidden Body on this boss in a first playthrough without looking it up bro, I barely knew how hollowing worked when I first started.
@@gojambe3957 I think it's more extreme of a misconception than just that though. This encounter takes place early enough in the game that the enormous majority of players barely know how to avoid tripping over their own two feet yet, much less how to engage with niche mechanics that are never explained to them. Forget "puzzle" encounter, this is a wiki-crawling boss if one absolutely must stretch to justify it somehow.
Yeah, no, I'm with the "garbage take" side of the comments here. I remember being disincentivized to use a shield as a mage due to how equipment works, and while I remember my first try Not Being That Hard because I all of Fucking Blocked _With A 2-handed Gargoyle Tail Axe,_ saying this is a puzzle boss is... unsound of mind. I don't think I even knew Alluring Skulls were viable for the boar- or, more accurately, saw a reason to CARE if they were viable b/c "That's a consumable, why would I rely on a consumable, that's just not sustainable long term", and I _definitely_ didn't know Dusk existed yet. I probably didn't even know about the Hydra yet, and the distraction and stealth strategies feel like they belong in the "unintended cheese" category as well, anyway. Poise is the only thing on this list I think is reasonable to expect new players to utilize, if they've caught on to how there are differences in how some enemies stagger, or that "There Is A Number Here And It Probably Means Something. Higher Must Be Better, Right?" and don't pay too much attention to how their roll speed has gone down. I do think the amount of "Capra Is Bad" is overstated, but it's still, like, _Bad._ The laziest fix I can think of would be to just. Dump a set of heavy armor outside the fog gate and call it good.
they give you alluring skulls when you first encounter the boar... if you read the item description, "attracts some enemies" should immediately sound like it works on lower intelligence enemies (like undead) and animals, the encounter WANTS you to use them when it gives them to you. the same way the game gives you prism stones when you first reach the crystal caves. distraction and stealth arent "unintended cheese", they give you those tools so you can use them, and using stealth spells to stealth around is literally their intended use. poise is 100% something you should notice when you first start. i mean shit, the hollows stagger, yet the asylum demon doesnt. the hollow soldiers stagger, yet the black knight doesnt. however, i can understand how a new player might not get that they themselves can also increase a stat in order to not stagger as often. anyway, at the end of the day, capra demon is literally a matter of dodging the 3, going up the stairs, turning around, killing one or both dogs if possible, jumping down before the capra demon, doing the same loop again till the dogs are dead, then just fighting capra demon, who isnt very hard on his own. no poise required, no spells, and no "unintended cheese". simple, and easy boss fight.
@@xyouthe "Easy" does not mean "Good" or "Engaging." And when I say stealth and distraction feel like unintended cheese, I mean _SPECIFICALLY_ for bosses that don't appear intentionally designed around it, such as Capra with that cramped room devoid of cover, no one's going to expect to be able to trick anything in there even if they have the tools to do it. It's Just Too Small.
Kind of weird how you didn't mention shields. Simply blocking the dog's first attacks lets you run around and get up the stairs very consistently. Shields are explained in the tutorial and are useful for basically every build all throughout the game. Blocking with a shield is generally the best way to deal with dogs as it usually stuns the long enough to get a hit in
This video is so well articulated and leveled in its response. I can not help but feel such a sincere want to actually improve discourse and to legitimately answer the questions people are asking. There's advice and solutions, both micro and macro. I am here for every single video you are making, but I am dropping what I am doing to watch more videos like this one. I also want to raise some dissension from what I am seeing in the comments. When I first played the game, or if I was showing this game to somebody new to FromSoft games, having a video that promises options is invaluable. There is nothing in here saying anybody has to do any of these. Some options are more easy to achieve than others. But it get you thinking. Are there other options? I don't know about you, but I play these games to explore and to try things. Having a push to say, here are some options to try when you are stuck, is a very good thing. If people do genuinely want to "Get Good," this is how. Have conversations, discussions, recommend tips or options. The kind of community I want to be a part of is one that is willing to try and help.
Honestly, my main issue with Capra is twofold. The first is how little time you're actually given to process what's going on before you get jumped and probably die, leaving you without much time to think out your options before being kicked back to the bonfire, which with the long runback, can add up quickly. Second is that while counterplay exists, none of it is telegraphed particularly well. Poise is very effective, but I don't find it entirely reasonable to assume that new players will understand what it does and how it works, which is more the fault of the game and not the encounter, but the point stands. Stealth is indeed very effective, and is the preferred way for Hitless runners, however, your options at this point are limited and obscure. Both rings are rather cryptic to obtain, either requiring you to venture into a super dangerous area, and then trading a non-guaranteed important drop to the cryptic crows (which the player might not even have found yet if they got to capra before activating the parish lift), or killing a potentially game-changing NPC (assuming you've even found him). On the topic of NPCs, the spells aren't much better than the rings in terms of availability to the player. Dusk and Griggs are both pretty missable NPCs, considering that the Dusk quest requires you to kill the intimidating Hydra and then reload the area, and rescuing Griggs requires using the Residence Key specifically. After having rescued them, the player will have to be interested enough in those specific spells and then use them in the fight, which I believe is a bit of a stretch to be reasonable. While all of these solutions are valid, I don't believe that they fix the fundamental issue of the lack of clarity and time to think in the fight. Personally what I would do to improve the fight is make the arena slightly larger, and add some more features like a few big rocks or a broken pillar into the arena to help separate the enemies to emphasise crowd control.
Griggs is also probably going to be the first merchant that returns to Firelink, so a brand-new player wouldn't even know where to purchase Aural Decoy.
There's one problem that you're sidestepping, which is that you're assuming the player is coming into the fight knowing what to expect and what their strategic goal is. Look at what happens when you walk into that boss room. Capra is in the middle of leaping at you before you've even fully cleared the fog wall; You have zero time to parse your environment or even fully the situation that you walked into before the game plants you firmly on your ass and sends you back to your last bonfire. I can totally see it taking a new player a couple of attempts before they even fully realize what they're up against and what's in the environment, let alone executing a plan like "Get up to the narrow ledge where Capra can't get me and the dog's movement is severely restricted". This is where the problem with the runback is; the runback from Burg is difficult, and the runback from Firelink is tedious. Since you'll have to make one of them a few times before you can even give the fight a real try, then that becomes a problem. Finally, even if you build poise on your character (Which I think is the only reasonable solution you've posted here) like, man... sometimes you juke around Capra and the dogs just body block you, which is down to _bad luck._ As for why the other solutions you've posted are unreasonable, lets take a look at what needs to happen in order for you to use these. Hidden Body: In order to get hidden body, you need to go to the Darkroot Basin, fight and kill the hydra, go to the cave behind the Hydra, reload the area, Kill the golden crystal golem, reload the area again, find Dusk's sign, and then have 14 int on your build. Ring of Fog: Getting this via PvP is a non-starter; Remastered's current player count on steam is less than 2000. PtDE is less than 200. Even if you could reliably get matches, all of those players are total sweatlords who are playing for the PvP. Which means that, in order to get the ring of fog, you need to first know that Snuggly is a thing and that you can trade a skull lantern for it; then head into the catacombs, hope that one of the first couple of necromancers drops the lantern, and otherwise then either clear a significant chunk of the area without dying, OR without resting at any of the bonfires down there, OR then have to crawl your ass back out once you're done. That's no simple task for a player that's only just cleared the bell gargoyles. Aural Decoy: Please provide video evidence of you actually getting this spell off without either having enough poise to just tank a couple of hits from the dogs (Which solves the fight on its own) or having stealth up (Which solves the fight on its own and we've also already established is kind of a non-starter) or having already dodged the fight's opening volley (Which solves the fight on its own). Wolf Ring: There's actually at least a few armor sets that can get you at least 21 poise that are available in just the Burg and the Parish, so this is less egregious, but if I recall correctly, that's down the path in the Basin that's hidden by the moving trees. Good luck finding _that_ without a guide. Like... your entire thesis for this video is that Capra is a good puzzle, but that's only if you know the solution to the puzzle and have the hundreds of hours of game knowledge to know what tools you can use to get to the solution and where to find them; and like I mentioned before, since Capra and the Dogs don't always move exactly the same way at the start of the fight, like... sometimes they just shit in your cereal.
how would a player not know their goal? they probably died once or twice already, so they can formulate a strategy. why is everyone viewing this boss fight as a exclusively first-time deal? you're not meant to beat it first try, unless you're already good at the game. nothing wrong with that. the game is meant to challenge you. unlike some other boring boss fights you'd usually die only in your first playthrough, like the gaping dragon. that boss is totally easy an slow. not even a smaller arena can save something so hopelessly slow and boring like that. it only serves to shock players in their first playthrough, later it doesn't have much going for it.
@@cralo2569 Did you... not read the rest of my comment? Firstly, we have a word for a boss fight that you must die against the first couple of times you play it. Secondly, like I said; Yes, the player will die several times trying to figure out the best way forward, and then executing their plan; and they'll have to make either a long or a difficult runback each time they fail. This is a recipe for frustration. Also, ya know what the wild thing is? Once they take out the dogs and start fighting Capra 1v1, they'll realize; This thing is _easy._ It's attacks have huge telegraphs and endlag, despite how small the room is there's still more than enough room for you to outspace him, and his attacks aren't so heavy that they can't consistently be simply blocked. So after all of that, the now victorious player will think for a moment, and conclude "That wasn't _hard._ It was _bullshit._ "
I agree with most of your points here, but one point I disagree on is the wolf ring. I found that on my own fairly easy because there was a moving, targetable tree, and the ring is on a clearly visible ledge along the main path so I knew there had to be some way to get it. If anything it's one of the easier high end rings to get. But something being missed here is also shields. The game gives you a number of REALLY decent shields and some thrusting weapons you can use. Yeah you may not have the stamina to tank everything at once but that may be an indicator to lvl up your stamina, which is arguably the most important stat in the game. By this point in the game the capra shouldn't be able to one shot you through the shield unless you've neglected stamina & vitality entirely.
Glorious takedown of a really stupid video. This guy is so lost in the sauce of Dark Souls that he can’t view things objectively from the perspective of the intended audience.
Expecting new players to get a ring of fog for this fight is just unrealistic. Not only it's basically impossible to get without a guide, but it's hard and time consuming even with a guide. Hidden body is not that much better. You need to make a somewhat big detour (at least for an early game) and to kill a miniboss. And 14 int. Aural decoy is a lot better. Or it would have been a lot better, if not for alluring skulls not working. A lot of players wouldn't even try spell version because they would assume they do the same thing.
I feel that you could have addressed how the Lower Undead Burg itself teaches players what to expect with the Capra Demon. The area is full of ambushes that teach players to react quickly, and they reward players for experimenting with poise so they don't stagger from each hit dealt by the fast enemies. Stealth helps minimize the dangers of each ambush too, and this is a good moment to experiment with different, larger shields for better stability. Even for a mage, the fact that Griggs and an unnamed sorcerer were both locked up can indicate that using no shield and the lightest armor possible won't fare well and players should experiment with their equipment. It's neat that Aural Decoy can work, but players will likely have to avoid the opening attacks before getting a good opportunity to aim at a distant wall and use the spell. The spell's description might also seem like it's for distracting enemies that haven't noticed you yet, rather than distracting enemies who are already aware of your presence. It's a good point that Griggs, an NPC from the Lower Undead Burg itself, sells the spell though. You could have noted that the Fog Ring and other stealth can be experimented with against the dogs of the Lower Undead Burg overall, not just with the ones in the boss room. Also, running back toward the stairs and the burning piles of corpses is often how players mitigate the charging dogs and ambushes in the Lower Undead Burg in general.
The only change I'd do is, instead of having the Capra Demon running once you enter the fog gate, make the Capra Demon walks towards you instead, so you can have a couple of seconds to analyize the situation and come up with a plan. Specially for low level first time players, who would get killed with just two or three strikes from the demon. But just about that.
I agree with the principal behind what you present here, I agree that with the arena design he is closer to a 'puzzle' boss than most say. The real problem, however, is simply the fact that the boss has aggro'd on you from a close range as you enter the gate, and is already running into you to land his first attack before a first time player has had the fog wall clear and taken a chance to view and understand the situation. Dark Souls 1 especially is a game that is not really as trial and error as its reputation has become, and most of the game is about acting with caution, care, and observation in fights and navigation alike to avoid unnecessary deaths, but with capra no opportunity exists and this stands at odds with the broader, strong design of the game. If it took a step or two forwards from the gate or at least for the animation of the gate and you moving through it to have concluded before he and the dogs engaged, it would be SIGNIFICANTLY improved, and stand alongside the other bosses of the game and puzzle scenarios better. TLDR: A problem-solving situation doesn't work well as a boss encounter when you are not presented with the chance to take in the problem and attempt to solve it on your first encounter.
Fromsoft developers: "hm that Capra Demon mob can totally work as boss in early game, so we could just reuse the assest and cut some corners on production. Let's just add couple dogs and put em in a narrow room so it won't be too easy compared to other bosses". Players 13 years later: "That's soo deep woah". /s For real, love your reflections of game design, DS series is great example on how details are the most important thing that makes the game shine on another level once the basic stuff is figured out.
My personal guess was that the original fight was just supposed to be capra demon in the small arena, but it ended up being too easy so they added the dogs.
Your stealth strat must be some kind of troll. You seriously expect new players to grind 20k souls or get past the hydra (when they can't beat the Capra Demon) and then rank up a PVP covenant (when they can't beat the Capra Demon) OR figure out how to summon Dusk to buy hidden body?
@@LOLMGS Different ring. You get the Cat Covenant Ring by joining the Forest Hunter covenant. To get the Ring of Fog you need to either kill 3 forest invaders, or trade the Skull Lantern.
Ultimate strat: use grass crest shield or any other shield. Walk in room while shielding. Dont go forward. Block first hit of dog dodge roll Capra kill first dog. Rinse repeat… this boss is test of shielding . the second dog doesnt agro until you move further in. Used to hate it but its not terribly difficult with a decent plan.
capra demon was never hard, ds1 has hands down the most easiest bosses in the souls series. so much so that i have to actually run through the bosses in my head when thinking of what boss i should try to put my sign down for, since most of the bosses in the game are so easy that no one will summon you for it, even capra demon oddly enough lol. 0 signs outside capra demon the few times i attempted.
I was one of the people who threw an alluring skull on their first playthrough, and got F'd up. Despite this, I was not aware that the skulls do not actually work on dogs until this video, I've always just assumed that it was some kind of error on my part, lol. After the game taught me to throw the alluring skulls into the fire on the way up to the church in the burg, in order to kill the armored boar, it made sense that the game would expect me to try using them again, if I had any left, in order to remove the initial aggro during Capra Demon.
Was curious to hear what you had to say and unfortunately I very strongly disagree and think this video is of very poor quality with how you approached it. -Barely anything said applies to someone's first experience with DS1 and comes from the perspective of a veteran which is just low-quality analysis -There is a very high chance this is a fight you'll do very early in your playthrough before most significant equipment discoveries, possibly including high poise armor -Saying it's a lesson from this fight that you can leave and come back when you're stronger basically comes from playing Elden Ring. As far as any player is concerned, they have zero reason to believe this isn't a fight they have to do to progress the game -It's such a strange reach to propose stealth as a solution to a degree I feel confident in calling it a dumb argument, taking just a minute to consider how many filters you have to go through from that option shows this: 1.Assumes player uses sorcery 2. Somehow managed to find any of the spells required before running into Capra Demon 3.Starts the fight and comes to the conclusion it requires a solution outside of "dodge move, kill boss" which no, the presentation does not in any way indicate a puzzle 4.Remember they have any of the aforementioned spells 5.Assume they would work in a boss fight and especially one in a small space 6.See it doesn't work properly but use precious spell slots for it -Alluring skulls not working fully confirms this is not a puzzle as it is the primary tool anyone's brain would immediately go to if they looked for any alternative to "Dodge move, kill boss" FromSoft made a badly designed boss fight whose difficulty comes from being shoved in a tiny space with multiple enemies on a really bad camera system, FromSoft has lots of bad stuff in their games and it's all worth criticizing instead of this which I'm going to charitably refer to as boot-licking
Can't say that I agree that rescuing dusk for her spells is a great solution, the hydra is definitely a bigger challenge than the capra demon. It's like telling someone to hunt a lion because there's something useful for Boar hunting in its den.
In my own blind playthrough I killed the hydra first. It seemed natural. You encounter the entrance to Darkroot right across from Andre, who can juice up your gear for you before you even go in. And once you learn to position yourself between the heads’ paths, it’s not really a challenge. You just wait a second, walk over, and poke the neck. If I had any interest in sorcery on my first run, I might have actually figured this solution out. I bet at least one wizard main did.
Hydra is deceptively easy since once you get in the water any 100% shield trivializes it. that being said it certainly appears like a more threatening boss especially since closing the gap to the Hydra is quite perilous.
I definitely think that the hydra is harder for a new player. The strategies people are suggesting are not something a noob who doesn't even understand about kindling it's going to have an easy time with. And once you do, you're probably skilled enough to just brute force your way through Capra anyway. That and AND you have to reload the area to find Dusk, almost nobody will do that without a guide.
@@WitchLuna7 yeah. for an experienced player who knows how it works, the hydra is easy. But considering how much damage its water breath does, and how easy it is to fall into the lake and die while attempting to get close to it, not to mention all of the crystal golems which are an entirely new enemy type the player will never have encountered before, a new player is probably going to die if they go after it too early.
I think part of the issue with the Capra Demon is that, once you find your way to Undead Berg, the game is really very linear up until you hit that fight. Capra Demon feels like it's at the end of that linear path, and the idea of stopping there to backtrack to the place with the giant lightning demon that you never tried to get past or abandoning this clear path to go back to Firelink and start taking a completely different one is not at all intuitive. All of the solutions to the problem essentially boil down to "go somewhere else for awhile and come back when you're more prepared," but not only does the flow of the game not encourage players to do that, it actually makes it feel like an unnatural choice.
I feel very differently about the level progression. You already have to backtrack through the Undead Parish to open the door on the bridge. Whereas the Darkroot Garden is a likely destination for those who've cleared the Gargoyles and have the Parish bonfire as their latest home base. Some players will be deterred by the Titanite Demon, but some won't and that's just a very natural path to follow.
@@illusorywallthe Titanite demon being right beside a bonfire always struck me as a set up of "this is a mini boss, but you are free to try as many times as you want" there is even a shop between the fire and fight so you spend souls instead of use them. Combine this with how easy the butterfly is, and its reward. I feel like the game intended you to fight the titanite demon and butterfly before the gargoyles at all. The unknown key for Lautrec even serves as a bit of a reminder for people to see they have the lower undead burg key that they never used when checking the description. Another thing I want to mention is the beta design, that had that bridge that would seemingly connect Firelink to just beside the boss arena, would have lent itself more organically to the idea of leaving and trying a new path. Sure it was scrapped for one reason or another, but I feel like they possibly intended for you to ignore the fight for a bit. With that shortcut letting you easily purchase the spells since all those NPCs refuse to sell you things before they move. Said spells also probably making the catacombs easier for you to fight Pinwheel first
Me... I did my first playthrough this summer and dealt with the butterfly after the gargoyles and met my doom with sif before even going into the depths
@@justaperson559 Well yeah, but since that was the "next" area I came to after Havel and had a good amount of souls already just farmed for a bit to get the key. Then the player NPCs in the woods give so many souls I fought the ones that respawn over and over to make up what I spent.
None of your suggestions for making this fight easier make sense for me to do on my first playthrough. Poise as you said, is a very obtuse mechanic, which i barely even knew existed when i played. And the other 2 relly on me having access to spells, which i was not even slightly interested in when i played, and even besides that, why would i think stealth would work in a boss fight? On my first playthrough i also couldn't really get the staircase strat to work because it's a bit too specific to really figure out if you ask me, so overall this just feels like youre biased because when you fought him for the first time you were overleved.
I agree with all of this…on a repeat playthrough When you know these things are in the game, it allows you to come up with unique solutions and piece it together like Legos and it’s AWESOME. It’s the best thing about Dark Souls imo But my problem with Capra comes 99% from the first time you fight it. Cause yes these strategies exists, but if you don’t use them you just have a boss fight that isn’t fun. It doesn’t even give you enough time to analyze the room or get a feel for things before you die. And these thing made thousands of people who could have loved this game drop it. Cause without these strats, the fight isn’t fun. And you don’t keep playing things that aren’t fun It’s the same reason I don’t like adaptability in DS2. It’s a great mechanic that adds a lot to the game, but it isn’t explained well enough to teach new players about it. And if you don’t use the mechanic as intended, it makes the game less fun just for you not being “in the know” I do agree that I wish stuff like stealth was encouraged more by the community, I’ve played this game 5+ times and I’ve never even touched stuff like aural decoy. I think I may try to in my next playthrough. Great video despite my disagreement
Even if it is a puzzle fight, it is still badly designed. Because you can't say that an encounter is good only given that you have the necessary item(s)/spell(s) for it. Because then the obligatory condition will be that player should have been lucky to get the item and have it equipped. And honestly, how many of you had the Wolf ring equipped on your first playthrough when you entered the boss? My point is, if an enemy guaranties hit on you no matter what you do it is a badly designed enemy. For a new player, that did not searched the wiki or saw somebody play, the death on *at least* first time entering the fog gate is basically guaranteed
I think it's ok to need an item or spell to make an encounter manageable. The problem with capra, is that it really doesn't give you time to think at first. Even if you know xyz item/spell will work (which you probably don't at this stage of the game), you barely have the time to equip it or change to it. So most players will probably die and have to do the frustrating runback. And the most logical and accessible item in this situation, the alluring skull, simply doesn't work.
@@WitchLuna7 There's also not really a logical thread to why most of the solutions should work. Why would you even think about stealth when the enemies seem to know that you're entering before you've even fully entered. Why would you expect the distraction spell to work when the alluring skulls that you have actually been telegraphed *should* work in a situation like this one, don't actually work. The only actual "reasonable" solution is poise, and I don't think anybody can argue that poise is particularly hinted at by much of the design in the game leading up to this point either. Even if you vaguely know that poise is good, having some conception of there being breakpoints to help you tank the hits is a tough sell. To then both know about poise, to know that you should find ways to stack poise, and also have an idea about *how* to stack poise, it starts becoming far fetched.
@@neruneri I actually completely agree with you, I was just offering a counter argument that even if you accept this it's a puzzle boss and these are the solutions (which I don't agree with), it's not designed well to give players the proper space and time to think through the options, like most puzzle bosses will.
@neruneri Also the dogs do 20 poise damage which is a lot for most early game armors. If you don't find the giant's set or the wolf ring (I'm 3 playthroughs in and still don't know how to get to it) you're going to have to equip hollow armor most likely, which isn't very good.
A new player? Hidden body? You mean telling them to tell me that a new player is going to think to fight the giant hydra in darkroot? THEN think to return to the cave in the back that they saw nothing in before, if they even *did* do that? Also lmao @ ring of fog, big ask for a newbie to run into a new area and even figure out there's a covenant they can join that rewards them with it AND that it happens after winning 3 fights. Aural Decoy is still kinda gatekeep-y, just because anyone theoretically 'can' cast it doesn't mean new players are going to think "Hmm, my knight should randomly fuck off and invest in magic and buy this very specific spell to distract the dogs". Plus, it's rather popular to want to play as an 'archetype' and not mix-and-match. Plus, there was plenty of talk of magic being the "easy mode" of the game, so some might avoid it out of pride. Poise is the only legit one that doesn't require knowledge potentially out of your league to get, and that only works if you're playing heavy. Yes, 21 poise to tank a single dog bite. There's two dogs there and you are VERY LIKELY to get hit twice. Nevermind someone might not even notice the stairs are a good idea right away. The fight is basically a instant-death jumpscare, too. It's not like you can pause and think it out like most puzzles, in a game that has asked you to solve nearly zero puzzling problems before now. That Capra Demon is right on you, and so are those dogs shortly after. Your newbie is unlikely to be heavyweight, so the result is getting staggered and slaughtered for all but the most skilled new players. That instantly puts a bad taste in the player's mouth of feeling unfairly killed. But then they have to think how to survive, and there's not a lot of tools available for you to deal with multiple enemies at once in Dark Souls. The game has mostly taught you to lure them out one at a time to keep things manageable, even hitting you with the hollow gank trap in the parish to punish charging right in. So the only real solution is "Cheese" or "Come back overpowered". Dark Souls isn't a puzzle game and that's not what anyone bought into when they started playing this game. This fight gets to sit in the bin with bed of chaos as 'unwelcome puzzle fights'.
To me there's one thing that I think they should have added to this fight, and that's a way to look at the boss room and see what's in it before you step inside, because once you're in you're overloaded with a ton of information and need to make quick reactions while dodging three enemies, and that's not very conducive to thinking critically, but you can't consider the boss room without physically being inside it. For a puzzle boss I think you should be able to look closely at the puzzle.
Believe me, after thousands of hours in all the 3 Souls games, and hundreds of hours in Demons’ Souls - this fight is still 50% luck, if not more. Regardless if you have poise, spells, or knowledge, the dogs can bullrush you and stagger you into one of the Capra’s swings, which is based on his proximity to the player. The dogs can also just leap around you, when they do their lunge attack, and cause you to miss, taking counter damage from the other dog or the Capra Demon. The dogs can fall off the staircase and stagger you, same with the Capra Demon, if their AI decides to try to attack, or does a wrong turn, leading you to getting hit. It doesn’t matter what level you’re at, how much knowledge you have, or your gear - this boss is still poorly designed and there’s a reason this encounter was never repeated in future Souls games; Royal Rat can be done the exact same way, each time, with the same results, because it also has a timer before the main boss enters. The Capra Demon is also supposed to be fought either before or after Gargoyles, so a player will have zero idea of what to expect, and have a limited toolset at this point - nothing in the game ever just goes “BOSS FIGHT WITH TWO ADS!” unless you count the start of Taurus Demon, but those are slow-shooting guys that are able to be killed before the boss even shows up. I hate to break it, but it’s not a puzzle boss, it’s just bad design. I’ll die on the hill that says DS2 is a better game than DS1 and 3, but I’ll never say Capra is a puzzle, or that it’s not reliant on luck.
Doesn't rescuing Dusk require defeating the hydra, which lies behind 4 or 5 crystal golems _and_ knowing to reload/return to the area so the gold golem spawns? That seems arguably more difficult and knowledge check-ish than just fighting Capra normally.
I think some changes could be done to the fight to make it far better: - slowing down how fast you get jumped. We could, for example, get an animation where Capra Demon is turned around or to the side (maybe trying to get into a house?), and once you enter the gate, he turns around, raises hand to point at you, and dogs rush you, before the boss jumps it. This would make the fight better in two aspects. For one, it would give you a few more seconds, so it retains all that claustrophobic feeling and the puzzle aspect, but gives you just enough time to assess the situation and approach accordingly. This was my biggest gripe when I was playing initially - you get jumped and killed so fast that you have no time to think, and fog gate isn't transparent. For two, it also makes the fight feel more organic - they aren't waiting for you to pass the gate like a videogamey boss and jump as soon as you get in. - if we keep the gimmick of getting jumped - let us have a peek into the arena before going in. Perhaps some hidden path or angle you could see from, so that you get rewarded for paying close attention to surroundings as you explore. - lastly, reduce the runback. Even with the one connected to Firelink, it still takes above a minute. Without the changes I listed above, over a minute of runback is very discouraging towards experimentation, as a wrong try will lead you back to bonfire within seconds. And distraction on the way in form of hollows and dogs doesn't help it either.
I feel like From Software struggle to decide whether they want their RPGs to be in the mold of something like Pokemon or Chrono Trigger where there's a small and pretty clear list of correct options for dealing with any given obstacle and picking the wrong one is heavily punished, or in the mold of something like D&D or Skyrim where you're supposed to define a character by restricting what they're allowed to do from an arbitrarily-wide list of options and every option is about as viable as every other option, at most giving the game a slightly different texture depending on who your character is. Their later games have moved in the direction of type-B design, with baffling exceptions like Rennala arbitrarily being an unpleasant roadblock for magic users, but Dark Souls was originally compared to things like Ocarina of Time which are very much in the type-A mold. Type-A players have no problem with the idea of picking up a spell catalyst and using Aural Decoy on a wall or changing their equipped rings to use stealth regardless of what they were doing up to that point, but a type-B player might reasonably argue that those aren't appropriate for the character they're playing at which point the only options left are "get good" (which in the case of the Capra Demon might actually be "get lucky") or cheese.
"with baffling exceptions like Rennala arbitrarily being an unpleasant roadblock for magic users" or you know they can just go somewhere else and come back with stronger spells or more FP and if that's a problem they can just use magic that deals non-magical damage like Rock Sling or Gelmir Sorceries.
Ideally they could get the best of both worlds with a fight like Yhorm. Yhorm has a gimmick/puzzle that requires you to momentarily change your equipment but actually has more hidden mechanics that allow you to fight the boss with any build almost as efficiently as with the storm ruler. Having a harder solution that allows you to still use your build gives b-type players what they want without likely interfering with the a-type players experience of the encounter. The hidden mechanic is he takes much more damage in the arms and head what he conveniently always lets you hit at the end of all of his combos. You also get a stagger when hitting him normally that makes his head for a short time take extremely high damage. There’s actually another solution like this for ancient wyvern in ds3. It’s partly why I personally was very disappointed with Rykard. They even gave him a move that requires an ash of war to dodge. I really don’t think Rykards any better than Capera demon for a player like me. At least he’s a great character and looks cool.
All caster starting classes come with a weapon in their inventory that can be upgraded and used in a situation where magic isn't usable. You're not forced to use spells, and even in that regard, some spells cover elemental damage types that are uncommon for their casting tool.
I find that if you treat these games like a survival horror game (using everything at your disposal to survive) they're waaay easier. But a lot of players (specially the hur durr unga bunga ones) want to roll and R1 their way through the game and complain about bad design when it doesn't work. This specially true for Dark Souls 2. It's also baffling to me how resistant some people are to bows and magic in a fantasy game. I disagree with Rennala. I think it's cool that my character isn't strong against everything, specially since being a mage it's pseudo easy mode in Elden Ring. As Masahiro Sakurai mentioned in a recent video, increasing the weaknesses and strengths proportionally it's a better balancing method than making everything even. It's also nice from a roleplaying perspective. You're not getting away with throwing magic at the magic school principal lol.
Making it so the alluring skulls distract dogs would've made things a whole lot better. And it would also help deal with the fire-breathing dog who always follows you to the first bonfire in Blight Town.
One thing you don't really touch upon, is the fact that you need to already knows what will happen in the fight not just to win, but to survive the first 10 second. Not only the arena is small, capra is situated pretty close to the fog gate with no buildup, no cutscene or standing up animation, and the dogs could easily close your escape path before you could process capra, putting you in stunlock position. Capra is pretty easy, but it's not a wonder how a lot of people just dismiss it as a bad fight or straight up hate it and written it as luck. Regardless, Capra fight is a bad design because it could easily kill players before they could process what's happening, it's like punishing someone because they made a mistake on their job but you don't tell them how to do their job. You don't want that, you want players to fail with the feeling that it's of their own admission(accord?), not the game. tldr: capra fight is bed of chaos floors, kills you with barely any indication, that's bad
Buddy that's the whole game. The entire series even. Enemies attack from blind corners. Enemies attacking from behind you. Enemies popping out of the ground without warning. Floors collapsing without warning. Being teleported without warning. Being trolled by archers. Being trolled by spellcasters. Being trolled by dogs. Being trolled with maximum health loss. Being killed by NPC's that appear to be friendly but are actually are not. Being killed by player invaders online. It's not supposed to be fun, fair, and easy. That's why people like these games.
@@TheCrewExpendable fun and easy is entirely subjective so I won't talk about that. But the game being fair (most of the time) is precisely why people love these games. The games while have a lot of ambush, they are not near guarantee kill for first time players, 99% of the time if you approach anything in cautious manner and always being on alert you will come out fine, which is not possible for capra fight. Ambush doesn't immediately means unfair, have you checked your surroundings, your destination surroundings, have you thought about retreating and taking a breather, formulating a strategy instead of jumping straight on? Maybe switching strategy instead of sticking to one? The ability to do these in 99% of encounters makes the series quite fair. I mean let's take a look at your examples, enemies attack from blind corners or behind you, have you checked these blind corners, looking around in the room you're in, did your ears picked up any moving sounds, or did you just walk straight on because you see an enemy out in the open? Have you thought retreating and give the new enemy a wide berth as you process what's happening? Enemies popping out of the ground is well I don't really remember much, except for one example I remember vividly is bone towers that immediately surround you on silver covetous ring in Tomb of The Giants, you however were given plenty of time to run between the gap as they have slow movement and attack speed. And then you can even immediately homeward bone out if you don't want to deal with them Floors collapsing only a problem in bed of chaos, I don't remember any other that gave me problem. I don't know why being teleported to a room without enemies with all your stuff intact is considered unfair Trolled by archer and spellcasters, ever thought to staying back and rethought your strategy? Switching your gears to better suited against them? 100% block shield? decent anti magic shield? Greatshield? Maneuver around them? Ranged attack them back and pick them off one by one? Dogs? Shield. The teleporting dogs in ds3 is bs, though that's more of a programming flaw (see zullie videos). Losing health is not much of a problem because the games were balanced with the gimped health in mind, except ds2, but ds2 is ds2 NPC who? Player invaders are literally real people, I don't know what to tell you that unless they are cheating or twinking, it's literally a skill problem
I heavily disagree with the idea this is a puzzle fight which kinda derails the whole argumentation. Poise is just a general mechanic that makes most encounters in DS1 a joke including artorias, stealth even in the latest games enables a myriad of obviously unintended situations in bossfights and if decoys were actually an intended strategy there's no reason skulls shouldn't work.
"It's not a puzzle because the solutions help in other parts of the game", that's why I'm saying it's kind of a better puzzle in some ways than other puzzle encounters. The decoys thing is its biggest shortcoming, but for whatever reason they wanted the spells to be a lot more effective than the consumables. In both DS1 and DS2, the decoy spells affect a LOT more enemy types than the alluring skulls. I think this encounter was a victim of that poor design choice, but it doesn't mean they weren't cool with the spell working.
I hated capra demon boss so much that i've googled/youtubed how to pass it. I didn't knew poise, decoy, invisibility, sneak. I saw bomb from outside but i didn't liked it. I saw the magic shield but i had to level up few times to unlock and therefore i've ignored it. Actually none of those solutions were mine, my turning point was light equip to fast roll, then run up the stairs, kill dogs, deal with the boss. I must admit i came here just to share my grudge, but i have to think again. This video is incredibly educational and your points are fair and solid.
I've never even played DS1 to this point, but this just summarizes it perfectly. Had to look up the upload date to make sure it wasn't an April fools joke. I get the idea, but the implementation is awful.
Room temperature take: it's not that the Capra Demon room is fundamentally terrible. It's that dogs are consistently The Most Aggravating Enemy in every Souls game ever made by From.
Experiment all you want but I fail to see where the game encourages or rewards you for it... There are dozens of different items, weapons, stats, strategies, etc. you could reasonably try experimenting with (which often costs you limited resources), just to get killed within 10 seconds and congratulations, you get to run back again. Where's the reward? There's a reason these janky "puzzle" moments are frequently the most hated parts of every FromSoft game. Sure they're not based on luck per se, but they absolutely do require trial and error, and I don't see how that's any better when the game punishes you by wasting your time every time you die. Hope this doesn't sound overly harsh lol, I love this channel and Dark Souls, just writing out my thoughts
It's not overly harsh and I appreciate the comment! I believe the reward is that the fight goes from hard to easy with all the tools/ strategies mentioned. Plus they're all applicable to other parts of the game. I had someone else in the comments saying they had no idea that stealth would be so effective for making the Blowdart Snipers of Blighttown not shoot until you're very close to them. The reward for players learning about these things is quite significant! You're not wrong that this requires some trial and error though. I personally don't think that dying a few times before going "hey wait a sec, how do I make passing through the fog gate not a problem" is the end of the world, but I can appreciate that some players won't dig that. But to be perfectly fair, being that critical of trial and error means that even really well-refined boss fights are open to the same criticism. Because maybe they're "fair", but they're hard enough that you're probably going to die 10+ times in order to get better at handling their movesets. So, trial and error is still present in the end. Trial and error is more baked into these games (and most video games) than I think a lot are willing to admit, but I don't think that's inherently a negative or unfair thing. That's just inherent to any game with any kind of challenge, really. You're gonna have to repeat some parts to get better at them or figure them out. :)
@@illusorywall Thanks for the response! For me, I guess the difference is that when you're learning a more action-based fight, ideally you can see what kills you each attempt and have a good idea of what to do next time. It might take many tries, but there's a sense of progression. With a boss like Capra, it doesn't come across as clearly what you're doing wrong and what you should try instead. And once you do figure something out, the result is just an anticlimactic fight that's over quickly. Having said that, after reading your pinned comment, I can see your main point is not just about Capra being good or bad game design, and more about how the community perpetuates the idea that there's some RNG factor present and discourages players from really engaging with the game. And I can't really disagree with you there!
I’m sorry but this seems like a lot of assumption and cope to justify bad design It’s a sloppily made fight, and while there is a strategy and consistent way to beat it, I don’t think the devs really had anything crazy in mind
Agreed. It's just a dumb fight, once you know the gimmick it's such a trivial fight. It essentially goes from bullshit to lame, not really much interesting in terms of game design. I kinda think the guy who made this video just wants to feel smart for figuring out something really basic about the game.
I always thought alluring skulls were made specifically for this fight lol, I'm a hoarder though so I never used them but to learn that it doesn't work makes me a bit sad Also I really wish dark souls consumable all worked like estus, estus is such a good concept to control the tools the player have access to and prevent hoarding but somehow they limited it only to health potion. If you had like, 1 alluring skull and could use it once per rest, or have to collect multiple resin type but only could use a single one per rest it'd be much more interesting. To balance the number of consumable you have access to I'd also make it so you can only change your quick item bar at bonefires and that only some key items could be used from the inventory like the dark soul or pvp item, that way you'd build your loadout for the next section without abusing everything you've found so far. It's a digression but yeah I think if that was the case players would be much more open to creative solutions to problems.
I actually really like that idea, that would be pretty cool. I feel like it would add a lot because you would simultaneously feel like you had more at your disposal, but also like you had to be far more selective, yeah, I like that, good idea :)
Perhaps the most interesting assumption to me in this video is that "throwing firebombs over the gap in the wall" is too cheesy, but "killing the boss while invisible to the dogs" or "using a spell that distracts them into beating up the brick wall while I standing right there hitting them" isn't.
Because one is actively breaking the game, while one is an actual game mechanic that is at your disposal, those spells and other things were made for a reason. Like, c'mon, you HAVE to see that, right?
@@SirBiscut2470how is it breaking the game? From could have built the wall higher, from could have made the dogs not have hitboxes until the player crosses the fog wall, it didn't do those things.
@@greenpinapple820 if you are about to say that doing that was an intended game mechanic then idk what to say, there is ABSOLUTELY a different there, idk how you don't see that.
very nice video as always. one thing to add: i think there might be another piece of the solution. the game gives us as players always items to work with and solve those puzzle fights. i believe that its not a coincidance, that the key to lower undead burg is next to the halberd. the halberd has long reach, a pierce attack for the small area in the boss room up the stairs AND a big spin attack with the heavyattack. Furthermore if we look at the weapons we get in the area: the mail breaker. upon closer inspection we learn, that this sword can attack while blocking leading to another way to deal with the dogs and since it's super light weight, one could easily equip the halberd and the mailbreaker to have a big advantage IF one finds the spot up the stairs and uses the piose solution as well
Another problem with the camera is the fog gate itself. Usually in boss fights, you have a moment to get past the fog and collect your bearings, but with this fight, you're already being swarmed before can see what's happening. It doesn't help that PtDE had a low framerate, making it that much harder to quickly react to it. Early-game players are also less likely to have combed through the fan wikis to know their options with stealth or the wolf ring.
The real problem with Capra and the difficulty balancing of DS1 is general is that going low poise with a slow weapon makes the game x10 harder while high poise fatroll tier builds with any weapon just breaks the game allowing you to trade and chug between hits with almost every boss and never just roll/block. Also the way poise is distributed between armors, like the starting set of the Warrior has zero poise except for 5 on the helmet. Yet the Hollow Warrior Set that looks like a torn vest and leggings with a shoe missing have 16 poise. WHAT A SCAM! I bet there there is a quite substatial number of players that used the default first starting class, Warrior because it seemed an ok all-rounder then quit DS1 at Taurus, Capra or Gargoyles because all the stunlocking trying to use a weapon like the Claymore or Zwei and getting poked out of the animation by a dog or hollow. It's really no surprise DS2, DS3 and ER made poise values more consistenty tied with the weight and defense of armors while also going back to weapon based hyperarmor, armor poise being just a buff to those frames.
It was also a problem with Demon's Souls. Picking a Knight and not knowing about world tendency can be hell. If you pick Royalty, use magic, and always kill yourself in the Nexus after bosses; the game becomes easier than most mainstream games. Hell, you literally can one shot most bosses with Fire Storm.
I miss DS1 poise (although agree it could've been distributed differently). Hyper Armour only made playing a "tank" build feel non viable in the later games. Or at least made tanky builds play almost identically to lightly armoured ones with the same dodges and poise.
Capra demon is the definition of an unfair fight, with a way to make it fair. The only real problem is that the game's camera has a low view angle and collides with terrain. Leading to a situation where if you get trapped you can't even see shit. Most new players won't be able to respond properly and just die confused and angry. The solution, don't get trapped =P
11:58 "And this why I feel the fight is so fundamentally misunderstood." Maybe this is why you feel the fight is misunderstood. But that's not why it's misunderstood. You make a great case as to what the intentions for that fight might have been. But that's not at all how it was received. It's not misunderstood because nobody gave it a chance. It's misunderstood because it's poorly thought out and/or poorly realized. And that's okay. But what that whole segment about advices on reddit tell you point blank, is that a fifth of the people thought it was bullshit enough to not bother and just cheese it. And the rest have to tell you directly to use the stairs or teach you the invisible poise mechanic to "solve" the puzzle. Like, you explain it well and all, as usual, your video is super well scripted and produced. But in that very case, your point remains moot in the face of how the fight was received and is remembered: it's bullshit. At the end of the day what good is a puzzle if to solve it you need 100 redditers to debate what the answer might be? At what point are you allowed to say it's a bullshit solo challenge? You can give all the justification, the what ifs (you came from dark root garden, or have a super heavy shield, or throw this and that)...it's still bad design. You can get over it, yes, there are solutions, maybe intended ones, the most obvious being the stairs. But it's still a ridiculous fight/puzzle, in a super cramped space, that you either fail in the first 10 seconds and have to walk 5 minutes to retry, or succeed in first phase and have to jump on the head of the boss for 3 minutes... And if it is the way people discover the poise and stealth mechanic, I think it's even more egregious to the overall difficulty or worst, reticence, FromSoft has towards any form of tutorial. Which is weird, judging by how good their level design and mechanic design is, you'd think they would have find a solution to teach without telling at some point. Still it's super interesting to dissect that boss fight. But still not to play.
I agree it allows for experimentation, but I disagree that's this is a solid defense of the overall design of the Boss Fight. Three very easy changes would be to have the arena slightly larger for fewer camera shenanigans, have the dogs in front of the capra demon so you can see and recognize them, and mirror the stairs so the platform is on your character's LEFT when you turn back to face the dogs to prevent jankily bonking the wall when you swing your weapon (which can make you slide off the platform). Bonus points to have the dogs bark at you for a second or two when you walk in to alert the capra demon to your presence - this also helps your immersion. That's all that's required to make this fight feel less like a cheap "gotcha!".
I also think that to even consider stealth, one would need a greater understanding of how this mechanic even works. Why would stealth work in a bossfight, when you get charged immediately opon entering? And sure, since the dogs are just normal enemies it works on them, but how is a new player supposed to make the connection?
theres another way to fight the capra demon which is what i used on my first playtrough, the magic shield which is also bought from Griggs, it allowed me to just tank the capra demon's first swing without breaking my guard so i could safely run up the stairs
- Poise is incredibly effective and easily the most straight-forward solution to get to the stairs, but newer players either won't know how it works or where to get strong enough armor. Wolf ring is your best bet to not get stunlocked but you'll still be getting mobbed by the boss and his pets. The stone armor is found behind a bunch of forest hunters and a door that costs 20,000 souls to open, or reached by a secluded ladder next to a hydra. - Why would a new player think to use stealth when they're in a cramped boss battle like this? Especially since the only ways to use stealth are a spell you buy from princess dusk, a covenant item, and a spell and ring in Sen's Fortress/dropped when you kill a merchant. Maybe in NG+ it's a fine idea since you might have them by then but if you're in NG+ you ought to be plenty strong enough already to not need it, especially because the method is only useful against the dogs. It's an interesting way of confronting the boss, but it's really unnecessary - Diversion would be much more reasonable if alluring skulls worked, considering you can buy them from the female undead merchant not far from the boss. Aural decoy is great because of its low requirements, but alluring skulls not working is such a missed opportunity. - Firebomb/Dung Pie cheese is likely a developer oversight. It's a strat that makes things way easier but you're hardly interacting with the boss Regardless of these strategies alleviating the encounter, it's still not very well designed. The arena is incredibly small and the boss aggros as soon as you step through the fog (with the fog still covering your screen), so you have to dodge immediately, then followed by the dogs. The player doesn't have the time to assess the situation before getting mobbed. It's hardly presented as a puzzle boss.
Yeah I’m one of the players who crouched in a 50 meter radius from Tree Sentinel. And thus, I missed the church and the first merchant for 2 or more hours 💀
@@porkwhisperer3050 Ah, you're right. I forgot about that shortcut where that lone hollow archer stands. OP was talking about 50 minutes runback so I took that almost literally haha.
i think illusorywall got a bit lost in the sauce with this one. ds1 was not encouraging new players to use mechanics like stealth or poise, which they wouldnt know about anyways. he said the fight was misunderstood, but i think its just poorly designed. if a bossfight is frustrating, its not the player's fault for not finding the fun, its the game's fault.
@@BaronSterling dark souls is a game which is encouraging players to think outside the box from the start. The first boss is the perfect example for this design principle.
poise was not to be used? of course it was, the dogs are fast and attack you early. poise is the first thing that should pop up in a player's mind for the fight.
They hate capra because they think its cheap and unfair. I hate capra because i basically exclusively play with item and enemy randomizers. We are not the same On a serious note i think the problem is you dont have time to react to the fight sometimes due to the terrible camera
i'd agree with you if the game encouraged such experimentation more. it's not fair to expect the player to suddenly do something they weren't expected to do for the rest of their playthrough so far
THIS IS AMAZING thank you for still making DS1 content. I’m 5 seconds in. I’ve always liked bed of chaos and when I found out people hated it I was shocked. It’s funny getting killed by the branches imo I laughed every time I tried to jump over a gap just to get knocked away. I didn’t find it hard at all and I still think it’s fun honestly, but I hated Capra demon only for the run back I have since become a Capra demon believer too though Edit: Now that I’ve watched the whole thing, I agree with your rationality and would only add that you should consider making games
Something to reiterate; but there's no shame in not finding all the solutions. Most players won't. However, what I'm getting it is how a lot of players also struggle with the Gargoyles. A lot of players have no idea what kindling or reverse hollowing does, etc. But generally speaking, when people ask about these things the community can be trusted to explain them well and give good advice on their options. The situation with the Capra Demon often doesn't quite play out the same, though.
So I think a lot of people in the comments are bewildered saying "you're expecting players to find the stealth options?" I mean, some players will. Most won't. I think poise and Aural Decoy are more reasonable, but we're kind of straying from the point. Which is that the broader community, when giving advice on how to handle the Capra Demon, don't really approach it through the lens of a puzzle encounter with a singular main problem to be solved. That is very clear if you've been present in the discourse over the years. "It requires luck", & "just cheese it" are really popular recommendations in a way that's kind of without parallel to other parts of the game. There's a wide variety of options that are reasonable to get post-Undead Parish and very easy to execute on, but the broader community often glosses over these and that's what I'm critical of.
Some are criticizing me for knowing the game too well and being able to approach the fight through the lens of hindsight, but I think being able to learn from the game and look back at the fight with a fresh perspective, particularly when it comes to engaging with others in the community, is fine and even the most reasonable thing to do.
I'm also learning how many people are adamant that it's unlikely for someone to explore the Darkroot Garden before the Lower Burg. The non-linear nature of the game means all sorts of things can happen and of course some people won't bother with Darkroot first. But I think people are genuinely way off base to think that doing the Moonlight Butterfly or Hydra before the Capra Demon is some huge stretch. That is a completely normal way to play the game and happens all the time.
"struggle with capra? just kill the hydra" this is like the worst advice possible to a melee player
and the titanite demon lets many new players think that the area behind is a late game area that you're not supposed to explore yet, if they actually intended for you to go to darkroot garden before capra then it's terrible gamedesign
the gargoyles are a good example of a roadblock unlike capra, because the gargoyles are actually fun to fight against with any build and they have their clear attack patterns that you can actually practice to dodge consistently, without being your average 1v1 generic swordfight. you still have to watch out for their dangerous fire breath and for the roofs edge
I like to watch playthroughs of my favorite games, and I've probably seen around ten first-time DS1 players attempt the Capra Demon. I have literally never seen anyone have an _"Aha, THIS is how I'm supposed to do it!"_ Taurus Demon puzzle-esque revelation to resolve the encounter. Overwhelmingly, they spend their first half-dozen attempts getting stunlocked and camera-fucked in the first few seconds of entering the room, get increasingly frustrated by the disproportionate runback, eventually figure out that they should be aiming for the staircase, and spend another half-dozen attempts trying to get lucky and roll through the three attacking enemies. It's how I first did it, it's how most players first do it, and heck, I'm willing to bet it's how you first did it.
In the end, if the Capra Demon fight is really "supposed" to be approached in the way you claim, the most we can say is that the encounter fucking sucks at conveying to players how it is "supposed" to be approached.
Man, you can just say you like a badly designed boss, that’s fine, there’s no need to make a thesis to try and validate yourself lol.
I did Deep Root before Capra so I grabbed the Boulder shield, and the stone armor to muscle my way through as soon a realized I was just going to spammed, that said, I learned this from getting spammed by the shrubs/hollows/etc. that looove spamming you, that said unlike stealth, poise dosn't help against the thieves who will just spam backstabs and laugh at your corpse.
"Some are criticizing me for knowing the game too well and being able to approach the fight through the lens of hindsight, but I think being able to learn from the game and look back at the fight with a fresh perspective, particularly when it comes to engaging with others in the community, is fine and even the most reasonable thing to do."
That's the thing though, people are talking about how the fight is on a first playthrough, most players will not have half that level of knowledge on a first blind playthrough. As for players visiting Darkroot early, even if a player does or doesn't I don't think It's reasonable to expect brand new players to go, kill the hydra AND reload the area to meet dusk just to have a better chance against the capra demon
I really don't think the experimentation with the stealth and Aural decoy was something they expected players to do, as I feel (or at least would hope) they would have made the alluring skulls work as baiting enemies is their entire purpose. The run back to the boss arena and the fact the game never tries to convey the fact that it's a puzzle fight are also at odds with wanting players to try different approaches
I think It's cool you're trying to offer a different perspective on the fight, but these examples really feel like just a few cheese strategies that someone very familiar with the game & It's mechanics can come up with in hindsight and not something that's reasonable to expect from people on their first playthrough
Another reason why Alluring Skulls should work: the game has already made an attempt to teach you how to use them. There are a lot of ways to handle the armored boar in the Undead Parish, but one of the most effective is Alluring Skulls, which they even placed as an item pickup in the same room as the boar.
So making them work on the dogs would not only reward thinking of a clever solution, but it rewards remembering the tool you used the last time you had an an extremely aggressive and seemingly insurmountable enemy and trying it again in a similar situation.
Especially since, if you explored a bit more and found the shortcut from Firelink Shrine, you'd have just met the merchant who sells them
Also, it's basically the item version of Aural Decoy which does work so it makes no sense to me why the skull doesn't... It's just strange.
@@JulesVonBasslake They really like to make the distraction spells more effective than the items overall. The same goes for Dark Souls 2, where Yearn works on a LOT more enemies than the Alluring Skull (yet the Alluring Skull works on a few things Yearn doesn't, like a heavily asymmetrical venn diagram). But yeah I always thought they overdid the distinction between the two, and it bites us in the ass the most in the Capra fight.
@@avramlevitter6150
Knowing this, it kinda feels like you were supposed to use alluring skulls, but there was a miscommunication somewhere along the way with how they actually work.
@@illusorywall It feels like they were trying to make the spell "worthwhile". As in, what would be the point of using the spell slot on Decoy as opposed to just buying Skulls. But it trips on itself by missing that a slot is a pretty decent price to pay for free Skulls, especially since it's not a spell that really needs to be constantly slotted. I think it would have been fine if the spell and skull were the exact same thing. Heck, Decoy is even at a massive discount even if you use it only once, 20 uses for 1000. Skulls are 500 a pop.
The thing about the Capra demon is that it isn’t a boss fight. It’s a home invasion
Preach
You even kill his dogs
Capra demon finally escaped the hellhole of Izalith and settled in town, only for a vagabond undead to kill his dogs and finally take his life too, we truly live in a society.
@@blargghkip more like a wellness check then.
@@konrad94886he asked for it tho
I don't have much to complain, but the biggest issue I see with this fight is how it starts: When you cross the fogwall the camera gets placed between the wall and players head, everything being covered by thick smog. You can barely see the Capra Demon lunging at you, followed with the dogs. If the fight had more room so you would see the elements of the puzzle, it would work better in my opinion.
The camera being the worst Souls boss since Souls are a thing
The camera does that in every fight if you stop moving after going through the fog. Move a milimeter forward.
@@dgalloway107yeah but not every boss fight has the boss able to hit you immediately after the walking animation is finished now do they
@@scottcaramel If you just watch IW's video you can see for yourself that you have time to walk at least 2 steps forward before the boss even starts attacking. Your reply got a lot of likes for something factually incorrect.
@@TheSkyfolk while that is true, I think that in practice that is irrelevant without being told about it, because who the fuck enters into a boss room and decides to just stand completly still? Anyone is going to continue walking forward so 2 steps of space might as well be nothing.
I've never considered the Capra Demon to be among the worst bosses of ds1, but if it was supposed to be a puzzle boss, it very much failed at it. All of the solutions brought up in the video are satisfying to use and are part of what makes these games & their bosses so fun, but they are not close to intuitive.
Stealth is a pretty under-baked mechanic in dark souls, especially dark souls 1, and when bosses ignore stealth spells, who is going to think that bosses minions are going to be different? Aural Decoy is, as a spell, much stronger than the vast majority of players probably ever think of it, but the failure of the alluring skulls definitely make it less obvious that an already overlooked spell would counter the boss.
Dusk is also, much more of a missable character than you might think, because once you defeat the Hydra and find nothing in the cove behind it, why would you ever return after reloading? Lastly for the spells, I don't think the average player, if they aren't already playing an intelligence caster, would ever consider looking into the spell lists of merchants unless they are truly desperate to try anything but brute force.
With the ring of fog, especially if someone isn't interested in PvP multiplayer, it is so obscure to obtain that it barely makes the cut as an answer to the boss.
Poise doesn't really feel like outsmarting the encounter, it just feels like brute forcing through an annoying enemy placement. It's the most popular option because it's the most intuitive, and is a natural progression to the strategies used before putting on heavier armor.
This is why, I think, that the support online for people struggling with this boss are so quick to throw in the towel and call the boss broken, and suggest cheese. The mechanics the Capra Demon is weakest to are so obscure and awkward that they are not only strategies unlikely to be used by first time players, but unlikely to be thought of by players on their second or third playthroughs. Players might put in hundreds of hours before knowing that Aural Decoy is better than alluring skulls, and at that point, are so skilled, they wouldn't ever think to use it.
If the Capra Demon wasn't a boss fight, and was instead just a room full of enemies you could see into beforehand, it wouldn't have the reputation that it does
Or if it just wasn't "required" to enter the Depths. If you could find an alternate route to the depths by searching the area thoroughly (or even just running in and grabbing the key, rather than killing Capra), people wouldn't have minded it as much because you didn't actually "have to" win it.
@@impishlyit9780 is this the same mindset people use when they avoid pvp like the plague?
@@xyouthe mostly so, yeah.
the other part is also tied into it with people liking to have a static experience that they control the pace of with their friends, as invasions are a wrench in that control that you have to go out of your way to get unstuck and proceed as per your original plans.
a dumb example but one that may be more easily understood: 2 dfriends are streaming a souls game in co-op, they kinda stop playing for a moment to discuss something the chat pointed out or to simply live the moment, maybe do some roleplay or whatever(supririsngly more common than you might think), but they have to either go their separate ways world-wise or just be ready for the fact that sooner or later their moment will be interrupted.
it's not the end of the world but for some people that's annoying enough to hate pvp in general, especially as then other reasons creep up to, most notably, the fact that the rewards hosts get from engaging into a fight with an invader are often so poor you might as well just kill yourself and summon your friend again instead, if you don't like to play the pvp.
(opinions and ideas of a pvper btw, mostly am a duelist tho, invasions in ER kinda suck so i did much less of those)
You'd kite the dogs outside of the room, kill them, then kill the demon
I think the biggest issue for most people is that all 3 enemies in the arena aggro instantly, like the fog gate is even still blocking half the screen when they are already on top of you.
There's no strategizing or analyzing possible in the first couple attempts because you have just no time processing what's available to you.
edit: it's like having to solve a puzzle but you're only allowed to take a look at it for 5 seconds and then you have to take a guess and if the answer is wrong you have to do 10 pushups until you get to take another short look at the puzzle.
Maybe there should be a spot with a grate or something you can look through to preview the fight. Like how you can see the stray demon from the start of the game, but rather than just building anticipation, a canny player can also use the view to strategize.
Brother over here solved the issue in 2 minutes writing this comment when a UA-camr mills this for 16 minutes
This also makes the Aural Decoy strat less viable, really. The fight starts and the capra demon is immediately attacking you + one or both of the dogs aggro-ing as well makes getting aural decoy out *before* you run up the stairs (which was one the the points in the video) really difficult without also using either the stealth or poise strategy in tandem.
If the arena was a bit longer so that the dogs at least don't aggro immediately and instead only hear 'something' and slowly walk up to investigate instead of charging you instantly it would give players more time to a) assess the situation and b) use aural decoy. And alluring skulls, if we're already changing things. I agree with IllusoryWall that alluring skulls not working on the dogs is bs. It was something i actually tried against Capra.
'ughnn the enemies attack you INSTANTLY!!!!''
I watched the video, I played the game, dawg you're just not skilled
@@stinkystink9830ok
I think the reason people don't suggest those ideas is that they would never think of them. Why would stealth or a distraction work when you're actively in a boss fight? It works mechanically but not logically, and a lot of players don't know those mechanics.
I personally never know how much poise will help in any situation so for me this boss always had to be a skill challenge.
And at that point in the game I didn't even know about the stealth spells/items yet to think of it
I agree the stealth is a little out of the way and unlikely to be something a new player does, especially meeting dusk since killing the Hydra is probably harder than Capra if you ask me. Poise is definitely a good option which makes the fight way easier and the player might have some. Just the Wolf Ring would dramatically reduce the difficulty. Also you've been dealing with groups the whole time up to this point so it should be more obvious that a staircase is going to be a decent choke point.
@@kie2it's funny because the Hydra has just 2 attacks and the head attack can be shielded fully and safely counter by just standing still.
By all means, the Hydra is easier, it just looks more intimidating.
I've completely played through the game twice now. I still do not know enough about the mechanics of the game to know that 21 poise is the magic number to block a dog. The game teaches you next to nothing about how anything works.
Or you could block and not struggle at all.
Rat Vangaurd true believer here
It's a good boss fight because having one rat with a mohawk is funny.
So I guess we’re just ignoring the emotional and cinematic significance of Yhorm
@@illusorywall Finally, SOMEONE gets it! 👑
🐀
That is also fair, if you already know the gimmick in advance, it's kind of lame and easy, but so is that true of a lot of fights. Playing it blind and trying to figure out what has changed when the boss HP bar appears is like a game of Where's Waldo.
A good salesman can sell anything
Godskin duo is a puzzle boss because you can sleep them.
Radahn is a puzzle fight because you can make him crash off a cliff
I know this was intended as a joke, but I honestly think that's a defensible position! I could see a take on godskin as a puzzle boss, given the number of pillars you can use to disarm several attacks and isolate them, and the overall difficulty (compared to other bosses) of fighting both at once. This is unlike O&S in DS1 where their movesets were tolerable for a 2v1, and weren't so difficult to just win in a head-on fight.
Rennala is a puzzle fight because you can use the beast repellent torch on her wolves.
Demon of hatred is a puzzle boss because you can climb the famous tower
i mean i wouldnt use the word puzzle, but everything in every souls game is a trial to overcome. how you do it is up to you. you can do it the easy way, the normal way, or the hard way. souls games are not hard
If you're gonna argue that it's a puzzle fight, my counterpoint is that if you're doing a puzzle fight, you need to give the player more than 2 seconds to assess the situation before they die.
But you do have it, you can stack several deaths to figure out what to do, or maybe you do it first, second or third try by rolling. It is unrealistic to expect people who have been playing the game up to that point to already be so good that they realise positioning/a good roll are good enough.
If you treat this as a puzzle, then you, as a being unable to really die, have to count your lives as chips at the poker table. You can figure it out bit by bit.
@@BygoneT forcing the player to die within the first 2 seconds with a two minute long runback constantly to learn how to cheese a boss is bad game design
Why tho? I dont think there are hard rules for this kind of thing or for games in general. Instead of looking at as a "boss fight" designed with the player in mind, I prefer to look at it as a real encounter in the world, If you enter someone else's home or hideout after killing everyone outside, they will probably ambush you, if they have guard dogs they will probably send them at you. The Capra Demon always felt like one of the most authentic encounters with a Demon in one of these games for me, it doesnt just stand there menacingly waiting for you, it gives the illusion that it is thinking, and is actually concerned about its own safety. The fight can be frustating, but thats why we are undead, we can try again and again and learn, the Capra Demon only has 1 life, so it does everything it can to survive.
@@scottcaramel "forcing", nobody forces anything, many people killed him on their first try. To me it doesnt matter if its "bad game design" based on some arbitrary rules someone else that didnt develop the game made up. If you or me were in a similar situation to the Capra demon we would probably behave similarly, if someone killed all my neighbors and barged into my house I would ambush them and immedietly attack before they have a chance to, I would also probably send my dogs to attack as well if I had guard dogs. My point is that makes the boss feels real, like its trying to survive no matter what, the satisfaction of winning is much greater imo when you get the feeling the boss is really trying instead of obviously holding back for "fairness" like the Taurus Demon.
So to me, the authentic experience is far more important than if the game is "fair", we are undead, we are the most OP, we can die over and over and come back with new knowledge, The bosses dont have this adventage so of course they should try to survive and win at all cost, like we would act in real life.
@@I-Rex232 yeah, but this isn't the real world. it's a video game. it's a piece of media meant to entertain. when you make a movie, you don't include scenes of the characters going to the bathroom because it's realistic.
My one counter to the main argument of this video is that the Boss itself doesn't give you time to think let alone experiment. When you mentioned that stealth was an option I genuinely had my mind blown. Since you get attacked so fast (before the fog even clears) I always thought all enemies immediately notice you on enter making stealth useless. If the fight gave us just a few seconds to let us observe the environment/monsters before getting attacked then I think the point of the fight would be WAY clearer.
Dark Souls 2 actually improved this in a way. There's a spot that apes the design of this corridor in DS2. However, instead of walking into it, you descend down with a ladder. So you can preemptively see all the threats.
Ofc, it wasn't for a boss fight... but it's a neat conceptual improvement.
100% this. The issue with this boss is absolutely not giving a new player enough time to digest their surroundings.
IMO, it shouldn't even be a boss fight. This encounter could've been so much better if it was a bit like a Armoured Boar encounter. In which you can clearly see placement of an enemies, that they are dangerous if you''ll fight them head on, but a possibility of a smart solution
You're supposed to think about it after you die, not in the middle of the chaos. That said, even with the options available, most of them are very cryptic. Who would think to use Hush or Hidden Body so the dogs don't come after you? It's definitely An Option, but the Poise option seems to be the most logical out of the suggestions.
Another big thing is it doesn't look like a puzzle boss. There's no dev provided cheese button. So people look at it through the lens of a standard boss fight. A la Taurus demon. As a standard boss fight, it is poorly laid out. As a puzzle boss, it's not bad. My solution was upgrade my baemore as much as possible, have just enough poise to tank a dog hit and one shot the mutts with a sweeping attack. Didn't even see the stairs. Lol
I feel like this point is really, really hurt by Alluring Skulls not working here. It's the only method you're almost guaranteed to have come across by the time you reach to this point, it _makes sense_ from the item description that it would work, and nevertheless, it doesn't. Even as far as puzzle/gimmick fights go, this one is still far from my favorite. :S Considering this was still DS1 though, that's not a surprise. From is known to experiment, and this was still very early days for the genre.
Yeah I feel like alluring skulls not working honestly kneecaps the premise of this video. If we must accept this is a "puzzle" boss, then its simply not a very good one.
I agree, alluring skull is the item you will have found and might have tested as a new player in just about every reasonable first play progression path. All of the other solutions require more in-depth knowledge of the game. Most of the other suggested items are in areas you probably won't find access to that early in your first playthrough, unless you were fooling around a lot with the master key as starting gift, or if you were crazy enough to take on the entire graveyard at low level and somehow survived the catacombs after that.
It’s hilarious how quaint Capra feels in terms of modern fromsoft games as something that would just be a normal encounter you’d stumble through.
Give me Capra demon any day over consort Radahn
I miss these days.
@@khankhomrad8855same bro
@@GargantuanDi dont
Power creep is wild
i would never have considered aural decoy precisely *because* alluring skulls don't work; i tried the skulls ages ago, and also made the obvious assumption that aural decoy's effect was identical - it's a surprise that it's not
It's an odd choice, but for some reason they want the distraction spells to be vastly more effective than the equivalent consumables. In Dark Souls 1 there's a LOT of enemies that Aural Decoy works on that the Skulls don't (most things that aren't a boss), and I'm pretty sure it doesn't work the other way around at all (literally 0 enemies where the skulls work but decoy doesn't). In Dark Souls 2, they did make the skulls work on a few enemies that Yearn doesn't, but overall the list of enemies that Yearn works on is still much larger.
@@illusorywall I think you missed their point. While alluring skulls are less effective than their spell equivalent, there is also the fact that the way in which the games teach you how to use such items is far from how you suggest using them in the capra fight.
My assumption was that aural decoy and such were only useful when the enemies weren't aggro'd, meaning you'd have to build your playstyle and loadout around stealth (something I and most people don't tend to do in these games) and as such we wouldn't even bother testing the limit of an item that seems optional and not really part of our build.
This also applies to stealth, btw.
@@authenticbaguette6673 i don't think any point was missed that needed particular attention - there were interesting things to be said about the broader effectiveness of the spell and not much to be said about how obtuse it is
and it _is_ quite obtuse, but ... so is most of the game; it's almost to be expected at this point, ha
Sister Friede’s invisibility was a much more engaging puzzle to learn across three different phases than having to use specific items for a fight against three basic enemies in a game where you can’t respec.
I hate her dogwater hitbox on that thing though. Also, the ploof of dust or snow where she lands is often a lie, since you can run over there and she isnt actually there. She also has probably the most insane heat seeking follow up attack, where she can turn on a dime and catch you no matter what. visually a great fight but god I hate her mechanics a lot.
I feel like you're underrepresenting how the runback (even with the shortcut to firelink) disincentivizes experimentation
How?
@@OtakuUnitedStudio The runback takes too long
it's a pretty short and easy runback though
@@beardslay It's insanely long, what are you talking about? And for first time players it's also not that easy.
the only experimenting I did when I was new was start a new character lmao (1st playthrough thief was a huge mistake). either route sucks to do a runback with: big long aqueduct run or dog alley. each is probably like a minute of pure running if you know how to dodge and run past, if you're new, you kill everyone and it takes you like 3.
The reddit threads tell a huge story. No new player is going to know about Dusk and Hidden Body without looking it up. The thing about a puzzle is using the pieces in front of you. Going out of your way to get items that the new player doesn't know about just doesn't work. That's why the stairs and poise are most often recommended, because the new player will most likely already have those options available to them. I think you're glazing the boss design a little too much
This, this x100.
Fact. He's dead wrong. Its not about preparation, it's foreknowledge. 9/10 doing capra blind will get folded on the 1st few tries
Yeah his whole argument falls apart completely without the experience of completing the game before
Some new player had to discover Dusk and Hidden Body for any players to even know about them. They're not as likely to be options a player has when first fighting the Capra Demon, but they're not some impossible secrets.
IW is truly the bravest one of us all. No one else in the FromSoft community is sticking their neck out with takes so hot you have to measure them in trillions of kelvins. That being said... I don't know, man. One of my friends recently did Capra on their first-ever dark souls stream and I just feel that the alternatives you posed are something only a person with experience and intimate knowledge of the game would do. Aside from poise. My friend figured out poise all by themselves 🤝. But the wolf ring? Trading the skull lantern? Picking up spell casting? I feel like there's a bit of telegraphing missed to let the player know this is a puzzle fight.
I just feel that Occam's razor points towards Capra needing a little more time in the oven (like many things in dark souls) rather than him being secretly a puzzle boss. Love your content. Thank you for making me and all my friends argue about Capra on Discord 💖
Just wanna say choosing Kelvin as your temp scale is weird for a hot take, as it's just Celsius but colder. The rest I agree with lol
@184Switch That was the idea. Trillions of Kelvins is even hotter than trillions of Celsius.
@@nanabobo567No, Kelvin and Celsius increase at the same rate, it’s just that 0 Kelvin is absolute zero while 0 Celsius is the freezing point of water. If we assume that the trillions of Kelvin/Celcius are the same number then the trillions of Celcius are about 273 degrees warmer than the trillions of Kelvin
My stance is that Capra Demon is a puzzle fight, with the intended solution being abusing the stairs. All other solutions are probably incidental, knowing From.
I think Capra *is* a puzzle fight, but also was a failed attempt at one. One of the biggest things you miss here is that IW is calling out the community for not talking about the other possible solutions, specifically when players are asking for help. Like a new player should be able to figure this out, and that's because the tutorial doesn't teach them well enough about this stuff for them to figure it out. So then the community is next line of defense to teach players, and they just... aren't. Which is the entire point. like, veterans of the game, who aren't IW, who know better about this stuff, aren't telling new players who are seeking help about this.
This is a bizarre hill to die on.
I think part of the problem is that as you are going through the fog gate, the capra demon is already winding up an attack. Particles are still blocking part of the screen when the attack HITS. Players aren't given the opportunity to think about a solution, they are just flattened, then thoroughly walled in by dogs and demon leaving no room to walk. That leap will even guard break so same result if you block without serious build effort. Part of a good puzzle fight is to give you time to think and solve that puzzle. Instead you need to spam roll before you even see what is going on, and then probably get trapped anyways.
Something to change would be adding a little flourish animation or even wait timer to the capra demon, so you can see it before it reacts to you and attacks.
I feel like all of these big brain ideas only come about after you've completed the game once and understand how the world interconnects. Someone's first time playthrough isn't going to think out of the box like this unless they look it up online.
While this doesn't disprove your point or anything, I did learn about poise from the encounter on my first playthrough
I think poise is perfectly within the box. It's things like beelining to Hydra, insisting on killing it, and reloading the area to discover Dusk that are a bit unrealistic.
@@ChristopherWaddelow That's fair but without knowing more about the game there's no way to know where to go or what to do to improve that aside from leveling. Again on a normal playthrough. Once you've gone through it once the game opens up and makes more sense on what options you actually have
@@Deekman Yeah, you make a good point, and upon thinking about your point, I feel putting a Capra style fight later in the game may have solved some of the problems with it. Or perhaps made him a little easier to deal with and adding a harder version later
So for instance, perhaps a double capra and torous fight. Or something like that later
But that what makes DS1 great in it's own way. It often rewards you for thinking outside the box. Aural decoy is so incredibly strong, if a new player were to experiment and learn to use it before capra, it makes the fight stupid easy. If new players insist on using nothing but the weapon they upgraded, well, I won't say they're playing wrong, but they're not exploring the game effectively.
While I agree that Capra Demon isn't about luck, I don't think it's about a puzzle with multiple answers either.
Honestly, poise is the only good advise to deal with Capra Demon, especially when talking about ppl playing DS1 for the first time. Telling them to "just equip heavy armor and go to the stairs" is WAY easier then telling them to kill the hydra (way harder then Capra) and the crystal golem just to get a invisibility spell. Diversion would've been good too if alluring skulls worked, but having to use a spell that you can only get after getting a random key from a merchant that you can miss isn't the best option.
He said "is not that hard to get the invisibility" and I completely disagree, fighting the hydra in the lake is more difficult than like 80% of the bosses imo. And dusk is not a particularly easy to find character.
Aural decoy for sorcerers, or even just cantrip users. It's such a small intel/attunement investment to add great utils to any build. I agree poise+stairs is the most common, but aural decoy isn't more of a commitment than stacking some poise and makes the fight just as easy. Many new players buy the key for Griggs, because keys look important. To setup some effective poise you'd still have to go to darkroot, unless you started with one of the 2 classes that have poise from the get go.
@@WitchLuna7 Fighting the hydra is very easy because its AI is so simple. But I'll give you, it is extremely intimidating the first few times. It definitely turned me away the first time.
@@WitchLuna7 it definitely feels like gloating from someone with 1000 hours in the game. cool strategy, how about for day 1 players when the DLC didn't exist
@@LFKShawn Dusk is in the base game.
the two big point i'd say you miss out with the mentality of this arguments are:
1. capra demon for a lot of people, will be the 4th boss they encounter, outside of gargoyles, which still have double to triple the length before your in major danger, the other bosses give you time to look around and work out what what your doing. not having that is what immediately makes people panic and encounter all the issues you've stated they run in to (stuck in corners, general fear of the boss, etc.). normally in a situation where newer players get jumped like this, their first reaction is to run back and work out what is going on, which is obviously impossible in a boss.
2. new players won't know about any of the strategies that they could use to make the fight easier, with the only exception being the skulls which don't work, so even if someone tries that, they'll just safely assume "its a boss, I've just got to learn how to fight it" and never attempt anything to make it easier. you do mention not running into one or two of them, but for all of them people aren't that likely to understand it by this point.
reason people state luck for the boss so often, is outside of spam trying the boss often enough to learn boss / dog movement, or literally copying the exact moves of someone from a video, theres not really a method to explain how to avoid the dogs and capra demon reliably in text, and most people will succeed the boss by a "lucky attempt" at getting up the stairs, which is what they'll think of when it comes to this boss, since the rest of the boss is so easy, you generally win by the time you manage to avoid the dogs.
for improving the boss, I would have made the capra demon come out of the gutter area behind him with raising / lowering bars, and have the dogs burst through doors at their area to start, which would still give players the panic period, but actually give players (particularly new ones) a few seconds to realise their situation before gutting them.
people enjoy crosswords, but don't enjoy crosswords that gut them 3 seconds after opening them if they haven't already started writing.
not hating on your opinions about this, just what i've thought after watching. differing opinions is good.
Capra literally tells you “git gud” , he is the quintessence of dark souls. You need to be able to be in a non-panic mindset to beat the game. How I see it, it turns a “new player” into a “player” with all the tools needed to beat the game.
everything you said 100%, as a new player you're getting blitzed instantly and in a small enough room where the camera is as much of a threat as the boss. the camera never really returns as an enemy again until phase 1 of nameless king. if you struggled against a second gargoyle, a second enemy halfway through the fight, then you'll love 4 enemies from the start. so you die so quickly you don't even know what's going on. plus the run back sucks. you die very quickly, run back possibly dying again or taking a lot of damage, and then try to figure out what hap- dead again, and you never got your souls back. once you figure out, it's a fun, fair fight. but 'figuring it out' sucks. it's not about learning a boss' pattern and timing like for other bosses, for capra you can do that your first real try. it's how long it takes to get to that first real try. fromsoft had so much faith in this boss design that future bosses/games all have giant arenas and simpler run backs.
@@nicolapodgornik6644 It doesn't tell u shit. It's just a shit designed boss that could've just been a fun one without the dogs.
Yea, and make alluring skull work
@@anonisnoone6125git gud
1:26 another thing that the Capra Demon does very well is stand there while I pelt him with 25 fire bombs from outside the fog door
when you get assigned as an opponent in a debate assignment in school and the topic is indefensible.
The capra demon doesn't behave like a puzzle boss and isn't presented like a puzzle boss. Souls puzzle bosses almost always have a much clearer 'trick' to them which is usually pretty hard to play around. I'm not convinced that the stealth or distraction mechanics are even intended interactions - stealth which can be broken if you move more than a little way into the boss arena, and distraction that only works using one specific method and is dramatically less effective if you happen to aim at the floor? These could be intentional, but it seems just as likely that these are unintended oversights as the dung pie cheese (or maybe the dung pie cheese is also completely intended).
How should it be a oversight? What i think is a oversight that the alluring skull is not working here. I really don't go with you argument, that the distraction and stealth is not intended, i think the dog positions are because of stealth.
This is coming from someone who probably knows more about some aspects of these games than the devs themselves after all these years. He's vastly underestimating how hard it is for a begginer to think of these things (specially buying a spell from Dusk, a very obscure NPC).
Most people also are going to die in their first few tries before understanding what the fuck is going on, and having two massive runbacks to cover. It can be very frustrating.
demon's souls has a boss that becomes way easier if you use the stealth ring
@darq7000
I mean literally, the fight as it is is an oversight. The dogs shouldn't be there when the Capra Demon is, they're set up to be only spawned when the boss is defeated, but due to a bug they spawn in anyways.
The dogs being in the fight is literally an oversight. One that has never been patched out, probably due to liking the results, but a bug nonetheless
@@aprinnyonbreak1290 That is an interesting view but don't see the argument for that. Almost nowhere in the game spawn enemies in a boss room so that point for me is not very convincing. For what reason should there spawn dogs after the fight? Also the dogs don't aggro immediately it you use hidden body, this look for me intended.
I think what really betrays this fight is the run back. It's not the worst run back in the game by any stretch, but the fact that you might just die immediately your first couple times makes it a LOT more frustrating. If you could just hop right back in and try stuff right away, it'd probably be a lot less of a pain. Though this isn't a unique problem with this boss either, and I think also makes the bed of chaos more frustrating than it could've been too, and honestly I'm glad they started dropping the run backs for the most part in later games like Sekiro and Elden Ring.
The runbacks were always my least favorite aspect of the series. They only brought frustration and and a chore-like feeling to the game imo. And I'm not one of those "I play these games for the bosses" kinda people, but once I reach the fogwall I would like to try the boss right away (like stakes of Marika).
It's controversial and and a lot of people like them, but removing runbacks was by far my favorite change introduced in Elden Ring.
The runback through the aqueduct is totally fine, a bit tedious but it isn't dangerous.
@@SeaJay4444 Tedium is the main problem.
I agree with your analysis. However, I believe you miss one particular and incredibly important element. You approach the topic from the perspective of a veteran, who knows the items, mechanics so experimenting with combinations is exciting. I believe the reason so many people find this frustrating because it is early in the game and coupled with DS' rather cryptic mechanics it makes it seem misplaced. In short you're telling people what a fantastic puzzle it is when most havent even understood that they must go and buy a puzzle at the store to then proceed to solve it.
Totaly agree. The most sane comment here. Who knew about the Wolf ring before fighting Capra on their first run? Who understood how to use stealth so early in their playthrough? I think it's very few people
Just because you can do something doesn't make it feasible for new players. The real challenge in these games is learning and observing.
I don't fully agree with this, and I think it's to do with how players nowadays approach a game like Dark Souls. I very clearly remember being fully immersed in the game when I first picked it up WAY BACK in the day, and taking mental notes of what spells do what, reading all the descriptions, and the care I took in the game being intrinsic to the experience. In a way it made it harder because I had to rely on "gimmick mechanics", having to think of what I can do instead of simply hoping I'll get a good luck run or farming (I did some), or looking up a cheese guide. I didn't think that I could simply learn how to "dodge good", and that'd be the end of every problem in every encounter ever, but that's unfortunately the approach a lot of people take after having played DS3 and Elden Ring (even Bloodborne and Sekiro to some extent), since those games leaned more heavily on combat and action.
TL;DR, I think people need to shut off their guides, stop listening to pretend-vets, and start being more attentive
@@rustedaxe2018 Quit making excuses for poor design, Miyazaki is not an infallible god.
@@victorbressler7156 you clearly misread my comment or misunderstood.
16 minutes of yapping to defend being overhead smashed by Capeezy Demon .02 seconds after walking through the mist door
Honestly I'm not sure I agree with this assessment of the fight, sure they work in *theory* but even as someone who is pretty big on DS1, I didn't know one of these spells existed, ring of fog is unreasonable to expect I feel, I never naturally found the wolf ring on my first run nor intuited poise as a solution and I wasn't playing a spellcaster.
These solutions sound cool on paper but the fact is the average player isn't going to think of these strategies, and in general I'm not really a fan of these 'lock and key' style puzzles, in any game really let alone dark souls. There's a reason Capra is generally maligned (and I *like* capra). Many design ideas sound great on paper but when you watch someone actually play they often end up being unable to intuit these things, and I think you have to design around how people *actually* play not how you want them to play.
I will say I 100% agree that turning Capra into a more conventional boss would absolutely suck, I think the appeal of it for me is a terrifying beast you're cornered with in a tight space. I think focusing on that aspect would be more to its benefit than making it a 'bring the key' puzzle in a game with a million little keys. Especially since afaik no other boss in ds1 really does the whole key > door design.
That said I respect the point and it's gotten me thinking about things with Capra I hadn't before so kudos.
I think you're retroactively attributing an unnecessary lot of depth to a boss that is only a puzzle boss in hindsight. A new player doesn't think "Oh, I walked into the arena and got two seconds to glance at a goat demon's ballsack before being gangbanged? Hmm, how do I solve this problem." The telegraphing isn't there to allow this to be a fair exchange. Contrast to something like the Old Hero fight in Demon's Souls where you are given time to examine the mechanics.
You could apply this kind of knowledge of game mechanics to any boss to make it solvable and call it a puzzle when you already have all the pieces; Capra Demon is just rushed. No pun intended.
if you die alot to a boss you can call it an "unfair fight" or try to see if you are missing something, people keep smashing their heads on the wall and expecting things to go different. And as someone who has played ds1 for the first time recently i know that feeling, capra was easy for me, but nito gave me alot of trouble until i understand that his attacks kills his own minions, so i used that to my advantage and killed the boss.
i don't agree. capra is not the only puzzle fight in the game. fromsoft deviates from their typical "get good" bosses pretty frequently with gimmick and puzzle bosses like this.
I see your point, but I think it has to do with the person playing the game and their experiences. There was another comment here that i saw that put it really well. Ive tried to paraphrase what they said here:
Players coming from Zelda and other similar games that have learned that certain fights have clear and correct “solutions”, will take that experience (walking throught the fog wall and dying immediately), and think that there must be some kind of trick to the fight. Essentially that taking it head on cant be correct because of that first experience. They would also be very open to diversifying their options and trying on different rings or using different spells (or even spells at all). Other players, and especially players coming from the later games, would think of the fight as just that, a fight. Something they can win via direct application of skill and learning patterns, and thus would not even consider that they have other options, which could easily be read as “unfair” when they lose and “getting lucky” when they win.
However that’s not all to say that I disagree that there is probably a degree of retroactively attributing levels of depth to the fight that might not be there, but without asking Miyazaki himself we can only speculate on the thought behind it and provide as much advice as we can for newbies.
It really isn't a puzzle boss.
It's a difficult ambush encounter that for some godforsaken reason was turned into a boss fight.
The fog gate makes it worse.
@@asdergold1 yep. it fails to demonstrate itself as a puzzle boss (because it really isnt) so poorly that 99% of players either just brute force it or use google and find the firebomb cheese. it is honestly just a monster closet poise/rng check.
to me if capra is a puzzle boss so is gargoyles. how? well you need enough dps to kill the first one quickly. see how that really isnt much of a puzzle lol.
Most of the proposed solutions expect too much of a first time player at this point in the game. Even understanding poise by this point isn't a given.
This compounds with the "well I heard the game is supposed to be hard" issue, which is going to make players assume there isn't some trick they can use to make it easier. The same thing that happens with players going to the graveyard first
Yeah. Especially since the game was called "prepare to die edition" on top of that
@@papabaddad see this is just cool advice you’d give to a returning player on how to do the fight easier. Most people have something like this for some fight in the series. For example; if you’re doing the defiled chalice in Bloodborne, I recommend getting your health stat high and using the shitty shield when you fight the Defiled Watchdog. This makes it so you can survive his infamous one-shot charge that comes out super fast. Simon’s Bowblade is also super useful to break his head against a distance so you can do extra damage. But does that mean Defiled Watchdog is a good boss? Fuck no.
literally all of these things are taught to you or demonstrated to you buy the game long before you reach capra
if you havent figured out any of them by that point you really cant complain
guys, how do I equip a helmet?? this game is too hard
"poise is too hard" seriously, at some point we just have to accept that the player can be wrong. This is ridiculous.
In my opinion, the simple fact that alluring skulls don't work is an indication that most of the praise you pointed out about the fight is incidental. If the devs had actually deliberately intended to create a well crafted puzzle fight, this sort of oversight wouldn't have happend.
I completely agree. Was just about to type exactly that before I read your comment.
If an item that has previously been used to solve a similar situation of a large intimidating enemy surrounded by smaller fodder enemies doesn't work, an item that is *most likely* to already be in a new player's inventory at that point, then to me that shatters the entire idea that the Capra Demon is some actually clever puzzle boss that you're just misunderstanding. Why try to recreate the boar encounter again so soon, but just make it inferior in every way?
I wonder what's next, the bed of chaos is actually a really clever and well designed boss, we just don't get it? Lmao
@@Bulletproof222exactly. Some people go to great lengths to justify the questionable design of certain dark souls 1 encounters. I can bet that from soft just said "just stuff 2 dogs in the small arena next to the boss cause game hard".
Yeah. A big reason that players don't use stealth and luring tactics is that, outside of cheese tactics. They don't work. So why would we ever bother?
Yep, first time I'm honestly disagreeing with a take in illusory wall video lol
Yeah i honestly don't get it, Capra demon is a boss that straight up should not exist in the way it does, there is absolutely no excuse for it
Confirmed: Illusory Wall is another Capra which had escaped The Demon Ruins.
rare illusory wall L. "Getting punched in the throat: real life's most misunderstood greeting"
The one thing they did heavily tutorialize, ironically, is the one thing that doesn't work on the Capra Demon: Alluring skulls. Those get their own whole part where the game gives them to you right above a blazing fire and an otherwise seemingly impervious enemy eager to run into it. But then alluring skulls don't work the next time the game puts you against enemies you want to distract away from you. It could be taken as a tutorial on making you think about problems in a different way, but then the game doesn't give you any alternatives to alluring skulls.
Except it does: Aural decoy. And I think the limiting factor there is that most people would assume aural decoy only works on enemies who don't already see you. Like throwing a rock from stealth to make a noise in other games. Who would expect the rock to take priority over you when you're in plain sight? Or for stealth (like hidden body) to work in a boss fight (especially a close quarters one)? They're assumptions, sure, but they're reasonable assumptions.
Great video though, even though aural decoy and hidden body can't really be expected from a reasonably experimental player going in blind, they're great tips that people should've spread around more compared to "cheese it" and "dupe to overlevel".
The poise strategy is the only one in the video that seems realistic, all the other ones are too much for a new player
And his reasoning for the poise strat is backed by knowing exactly how poise works. It took the community YEARS to figure that out.
@@KarmasAB123 you don't need an indepth understanding of poise to know that heavy armor lets you tank more hits dude that was always obvious to me
The point isn't "new players should have guessed xyz", it's "why haven't we as a community been suggesting helpful solutions instead of bypassing the entire point of the fight?" It's extremely common for new players of this game to look online for help, and in this case the advice from seasoned players is extremely lacking
@@KarmasAB123it took a long time with DS3 poise. DS1 poise is much more straight forward
@@Devixicus The souls community only has two recommendations for any situation: "git gud" or use cheese and feel bad about it.
We really broke into some guys house, killed his dogs, then him, then had the audacity to call HIM annoying? Justice for Capra
goat lives matter
It's a fight that tests your knowledge of the game, in a game that famously opaque when it comes to its mechanics. Your own channel thrives on "This game is 10 years old and we're still learning new things", after all.
At the end of the day, I don't think the fight itself is so unreasonable, but I don't appreciate the runback. For a puzzle boss I would prefer a very close bonfire, so the player can concentrate on testing possible solutions.
i think part of why people don't treat it as a puzzle fight is the runback. The run, even from firelink, is still pretty punishing if you want to experiment and try multiple things. Plus there's those stupid dogs right in front of the door
(EDIT: Gonna add that I dont think the stealth/not to stealth choice and its opportunity costs detracts from Dark Souls and Souls-like ARPG's in general. In fact because it pushes you away from bashing your head into this guy once youve lost your souls and gotten really frustrated, youre quite likely to go elsewhere. Thus reinforcing the open and interconnected world design by encouraging you to explore elsewhere and find new avenues for souls/weapons/other items. Maybe even try a new build or starter gift like the Master Key)
I love your content and message usually but I just...cant support this one. The Capra Demon having stealth options is almost completely irrelevant because you have to do one or more of:
1) Kill Griggs, one of only a few friendly NPC's in the entire game(or find it in Sen's Fortress after you've already beaten Quelaag) for both his Slumbering ring and Hush
2) Pay 20k souls for the artorias crest, join the Forest Hunter covenant, WIN 3 TIMES against other players in a pvp heavy area. Or trade Snuggly a Skull Lantern which is a 2% drop chance from non-respawning enemies before your guaranteed one in Tomb of Giants, notorious for needing memorization and being unable to get out easily without the lordvessel.
3) Best the hydra AND know that it unlocks Hidden Body after you also go and kill the golden crystal golem to free Dusk for only the visual hiding, and still being vulnerable to the dogs if you arent perfect. At that point you already learned and bested 2 other miniboss type enemies in an area already full of regular crystal golem minibosses, AND you have to run past Basement Havel or the Titanite Demon to even get to the Hydra.
So if I was me who was playing Dark Souls back in the 2000's when most things werent known about the game, or just didnt want to be forced to look up boss strategies in modern day...this is just unreasonable.
Also Dark Souls 1 didnt really do the best job at giving you incentive to actually make roleplay builds where you limit yourself for flavor. This fight is another example of "either get gud or cheese it" and I will always call out the freedom-limiting game design in a world where its an RPG that you make your own character from scratch in. Youre SUPPOSED to care about your identity in game at least a little bit.
A teamup-ambush boss fight as your likely 4th boss encounter...where you are being attacked as soon as you finish your fog-walk animation is just bashing the player over the head with its "overbearing diffuculty for the sake of it" design that The Depths is horribly guilty of as well. It being the required fight to get down there is really telling of what the devs ACTUALLY intended you to do which is go away for a while and level up more, get more hp and upgrades. Other ways to cheese the fight are just that, breaking game mechanics to force a fight in your favor. Not inherently bad, but not game design choices in and of themselves, very often coincidences in how game coding makes enemies behave.
No new player is finding Dusk to use Hidden Body on this boss in a first playthrough without looking it up bro, I barely knew how hollowing worked when I first started.
He literally admitted that in the video lol
@@gojambe3957that doesn't make it not a nonsensical point.
@@1slayer959 Do you keep arguing with people after they admitted they're wrong? Makes it seem more like he didn't watch the whole video
@@gojambe3957 I think it's more extreme of a misconception than just that though. This encounter takes place early enough in the game that the enormous majority of players barely know how to avoid tripping over their own two feet yet, much less how to engage with niche mechanics that are never explained to them. Forget "puzzle" encounter, this is a wiki-crawling boss if one absolutely must stretch to justify it somehow.
@@stygianskies4776 I'm... not even sure why I'm tagged in this reply. I didn't argue in any way.
Yeah, no, I'm with the "garbage take" side of the comments here. I remember being disincentivized to use a shield as a mage due to how equipment works, and while I remember my first try Not Being That Hard because I all of Fucking Blocked _With A 2-handed Gargoyle Tail Axe,_ saying this is a puzzle boss is... unsound of mind. I don't think I even knew Alluring Skulls were viable for the boar- or, more accurately, saw a reason to CARE if they were viable b/c "That's a consumable, why would I rely on a consumable, that's just not sustainable long term", and I _definitely_ didn't know Dusk existed yet. I probably didn't even know about the Hydra yet, and the distraction and stealth strategies feel like they belong in the "unintended cheese" category as well, anyway. Poise is the only thing on this list I think is reasonable to expect new players to utilize, if they've caught on to how there are differences in how some enemies stagger, or that "There Is A Number Here And It Probably Means Something. Higher Must Be Better, Right?" and don't pay too much attention to how their roll speed has gone down. I do think the amount of "Capra Is Bad" is overstated, but it's still, like, _Bad._ The laziest fix I can think of would be to just. Dump a set of heavy armor outside the fog gate and call it good.
they give you alluring skulls when you first encounter the boar... if you read the item description, "attracts some enemies" should immediately sound like it works on lower intelligence enemies (like undead) and animals, the encounter WANTS you to use them when it gives them to you. the same way the game gives you prism stones when you first reach the crystal caves. distraction and stealth arent "unintended cheese", they give you those tools so you can use them, and using stealth spells to stealth around is literally their intended use. poise is 100% something you should notice when you first start. i mean shit, the hollows stagger, yet the asylum demon doesnt. the hollow soldiers stagger, yet the black knight doesnt. however, i can understand how a new player might not get that they themselves can also increase a stat in order to not stagger as often. anyway, at the end of the day, capra demon is literally a matter of dodging the 3, going up the stairs, turning around, killing one or both dogs if possible, jumping down before the capra demon, doing the same loop again till the dogs are dead, then just fighting capra demon, who isnt very hard on his own. no poise required, no spells, and no "unintended cheese". simple, and easy boss fight.
@@xyouthe "Easy" does not mean "Good" or "Engaging." And when I say stealth and distraction feel like unintended cheese, I mean _SPECIFICALLY_ for bosses that don't appear intentionally designed around it, such as Capra with that cramped room devoid of cover, no one's going to expect to be able to trick anything in there even if they have the tools to do it. It's Just Too Small.
Kind of weird how you didn't mention shields. Simply blocking the dog's first attacks lets you run around and get up the stairs very consistently. Shields are explained in the tutorial and are useful for basically every build all throughout the game. Blocking with a shield is generally the best way to deal with dogs as it usually stuns the long enough to get a hit in
Because the shield destroys the idea that this is some deeply nuanced encounter with any intention beyond "go up the stairs".
This video is so well articulated and leveled in its response. I can not help but feel such a sincere want to actually improve discourse and to legitimately answer the questions people are asking. There's advice and solutions, both micro and macro. I am here for every single video you are making, but I am dropping what I am doing to watch more videos like this one.
I also want to raise some dissension from what I am seeing in the comments. When I first played the game, or if I was showing this game to somebody new to FromSoft games, having a video that promises options is invaluable. There is nothing in here saying anybody has to do any of these. Some options are more easy to achieve than others. But it get you thinking. Are there other options? I don't know about you, but I play these games to explore and to try things. Having a push to say, here are some options to try when you are stuck, is a very good thing. If people do genuinely want to "Get Good," this is how. Have conversations, discussions, recommend tips or options.
The kind of community I want to be a part of is one that is willing to try and help.
Honestly, my main issue with Capra is twofold.
The first is how little time you're actually given to process what's going on before you get jumped and probably die, leaving you without much time to think out your options before being kicked back to the bonfire, which with the long runback, can add up quickly.
Second is that while counterplay exists, none of it is telegraphed particularly well. Poise is very effective, but I don't find it entirely reasonable to assume that new players will understand what it does and how it works, which is more the fault of the game and not the encounter, but the point stands.
Stealth is indeed very effective, and is the preferred way for Hitless runners, however, your options at this point are limited and obscure. Both rings are rather cryptic to obtain, either requiring you to venture into a super dangerous area, and then trading a non-guaranteed important drop to the cryptic crows (which the player might not even have found yet if they got to capra before activating the parish lift), or killing a potentially game-changing NPC (assuming you've even found him).
On the topic of NPCs, the spells aren't much better than the rings in terms of availability to the player. Dusk and Griggs are both pretty missable NPCs, considering that the Dusk quest requires you to kill the intimidating Hydra and then reload the area, and rescuing Griggs requires using the Residence Key specifically. After having rescued them, the player will have to be interested enough in those specific spells and then use them in the fight, which I believe is a bit of a stretch to be reasonable.
While all of these solutions are valid, I don't believe that they fix the fundamental issue of the lack of clarity and time to think in the fight. Personally what I would do to improve the fight is make the arena slightly larger, and add some more features like a few big rocks or a broken pillar into the arena to help separate the enemies to emphasise crowd control.
Griggs is also probably going to be the first merchant that returns to Firelink, so a brand-new player wouldn't even know where to purchase Aural Decoy.
@@KarmasAB123there is a direct shortcut between capra and firelink.
There's one problem that you're sidestepping, which is that you're assuming the player is coming into the fight knowing what to expect and what their strategic goal is.
Look at what happens when you walk into that boss room. Capra is in the middle of leaping at you before you've even fully cleared the fog wall; You have zero time to parse your environment or even fully the situation that you walked into before the game plants you firmly on your ass and sends you back to your last bonfire. I can totally see it taking a new player a couple of attempts before they even fully realize what they're up against and what's in the environment, let alone executing a plan like "Get up to the narrow ledge where Capra can't get me and the dog's movement is severely restricted".
This is where the problem with the runback is; the runback from Burg is difficult, and the runback from Firelink is tedious. Since you'll have to make one of them a few times before you can even give the fight a real try, then that becomes a problem.
Finally, even if you build poise on your character (Which I think is the only reasonable solution you've posted here) like, man... sometimes you juke around Capra and the dogs just body block you, which is down to _bad luck._
As for why the other solutions you've posted are unreasonable, lets take a look at what needs to happen in order for you to use these.
Hidden Body: In order to get hidden body, you need to go to the Darkroot Basin, fight and kill the hydra, go to the cave behind the Hydra, reload the area, Kill the golden crystal golem, reload the area again, find Dusk's sign, and then have 14 int on your build.
Ring of Fog: Getting this via PvP is a non-starter; Remastered's current player count on steam is less than 2000. PtDE is less than 200. Even if you could reliably get matches, all of those players are total sweatlords who are playing for the PvP. Which means that, in order to get the ring of fog, you need to first know that Snuggly is a thing and that you can trade a skull lantern for it; then head into the catacombs, hope that one of the first couple of necromancers drops the lantern, and otherwise then either clear a significant chunk of the area without dying, OR without resting at any of the bonfires down there, OR then have to crawl your ass back out once you're done. That's no simple task for a player that's only just cleared the bell gargoyles.
Aural Decoy: Please provide video evidence of you actually getting this spell off without either having enough poise to just tank a couple of hits from the dogs (Which solves the fight on its own) or having stealth up (Which solves the fight on its own and we've also already established is kind of a non-starter) or having already dodged the fight's opening volley (Which solves the fight on its own).
Wolf Ring: There's actually at least a few armor sets that can get you at least 21 poise that are available in just the Burg and the Parish, so this is less egregious, but if I recall correctly, that's down the path in the Basin that's hidden by the moving trees. Good luck finding _that_ without a guide.
Like... your entire thesis for this video is that Capra is a good puzzle, but that's only if you know the solution to the puzzle and have the hundreds of hours of game knowledge to know what tools you can use to get to the solution and where to find them; and like I mentioned before, since Capra and the Dogs don't always move exactly the same way at the start of the fight, like... sometimes they just shit in your cereal.
how would a player not know their goal? they probably died once or twice already, so they can formulate a strategy. why is everyone viewing this boss fight as a exclusively first-time deal? you're not meant to beat it first try, unless you're already good at the game. nothing wrong with that. the game is meant to challenge you.
unlike some other boring boss fights you'd usually die only in your first playthrough, like the gaping dragon. that boss is totally easy an slow. not even a smaller arena can save something so hopelessly slow and boring like that. it only serves to shock players in their first playthrough, later it doesn't have much going for it.
@@cralo2569 Did you... not read the rest of my comment? Firstly, we have a word for a boss fight that you must die against the first couple of times you play it.
Secondly, like I said; Yes, the player will die several times trying to figure out the best way forward, and then executing their plan; and they'll have to make either a long or a difficult runback each time they fail. This is a recipe for frustration.
Also, ya know what the wild thing is? Once they take out the dogs and start fighting Capra 1v1, they'll realize; This thing is _easy._ It's attacks have huge telegraphs and endlag, despite how small the room is there's still more than enough room for you to outspace him, and his attacks aren't so heavy that they can't consistently be simply blocked.
So after all of that, the now victorious player will think for a moment, and conclude "That wasn't _hard._ It was _bullshit._ "
Beginner players are not that dumb. Pls don't gatekeep souls games.
I agree with most of your points here, but one point I disagree on is the wolf ring. I found that on my own fairly easy because there was a moving, targetable tree, and the ring is on a clearly visible ledge along the main path so I knew there had to be some way to get it. If anything it's one of the easier high end rings to get.
But something being missed here is also shields. The game gives you a number of REALLY decent shields and some thrusting weapons you can use. Yeah you may not have the stamina to tank everything at once but that may be an indicator to lvl up your stamina, which is arguably the most important stat in the game.
By this point in the game the capra shouldn't be able to one shot you through the shield unless you've neglected stamina & vitality entirely.
Glorious takedown of a really stupid video. This guy is so lost in the sauce of Dark Souls that he can’t view things objectively from the perspective of the intended audience.
Expecting new players to get a ring of fog for this fight is just unrealistic. Not only it's basically impossible to get without a guide, but it's hard and time consuming even with a guide.
Hidden body is not that much better. You need to make a somewhat big detour (at least for an early game) and to kill a miniboss. And 14 int.
Aural decoy is a lot better. Or it would have been a lot better, if not for alluring skulls not working. A lot of players wouldn't even try spell version because they would assume they do the same thing.
I feel that you could have addressed how the Lower Undead Burg itself teaches players what to expect with the Capra Demon. The area is full of ambushes that teach players to react quickly, and they reward players for experimenting with poise so they don't stagger from each hit dealt by the fast enemies. Stealth helps minimize the dangers of each ambush too, and this is a good moment to experiment with different, larger shields for better stability. Even for a mage, the fact that Griggs and an unnamed sorcerer were both locked up can indicate that using no shield and the lightest armor possible won't fare well and players should experiment with their equipment.
It's neat that Aural Decoy can work, but players will likely have to avoid the opening attacks before getting a good opportunity to aim at a distant wall and use the spell. The spell's description might also seem like it's for distracting enemies that haven't noticed you yet, rather than distracting enemies who are already aware of your presence. It's a good point that Griggs, an NPC from the Lower Undead Burg itself, sells the spell though.
You could have noted that the Fog Ring and other stealth can be experimented with against the dogs of the Lower Undead Burg overall, not just with the ones in the boss room. Also, running back toward the stairs and the burning piles of corpses is often how players mitigate the charging dogs and ambushes in the Lower Undead Burg in general.
Really great points
The only change I'd do is, instead of having the Capra Demon running once you enter the fog gate, make the Capra Demon walks towards you instead, so you can have a couple of seconds to analyize the situation and come up with a plan. Specially for low level first time players, who would get killed with just two or three strikes from the demon. But just about that.
I agree with the principal behind what you present here, I agree that with the arena design he is closer to a 'puzzle' boss than most say. The real problem, however, is simply the fact that the boss has aggro'd on you from a close range as you enter the gate, and is already running into you to land his first attack before a first time player has had the fog wall clear and taken a chance to view and understand the situation. Dark Souls 1 especially is a game that is not really as trial and error as its reputation has become, and most of the game is about acting with caution, care, and observation in fights and navigation alike to avoid unnecessary deaths, but with capra no opportunity exists and this stands at odds with the broader, strong design of the game. If it took a step or two forwards from the gate or at least for the animation of the gate and you moving through it to have concluded before he and the dogs engaged, it would be SIGNIFICANTLY improved, and stand alongside the other bosses of the game and puzzle scenarios better.
TLDR: A problem-solving situation doesn't work well as a boss encounter when you are not presented with the chance to take in the problem and attempt to solve it on your first encounter.
Not every Boss must be fair from the start?!
Fromsoft developers: "hm that Capra Demon mob can totally work as boss in early game, so we could just reuse the assest and cut some corners on production. Let's just add couple dogs and put em in a narrow room so it won't be too easy compared to other bosses".
Players 13 years later: "That's soo deep woah". /s
For real, love your reflections of game design, DS series is great example on how details are the most important thing that makes the game shine on another level once the basic stuff is figured out.
My personal guess was that the original fight was just supposed to be capra demon in the small arena, but it ended up being too easy so they added the dogs.
Your stealth strat must be some kind of troll. You seriously expect new players to grind 20k souls or get past the hydra (when they can't beat the Capra Demon) and then rank up a PVP covenant (when they can't beat the Capra Demon) OR figure out how to summon Dusk to buy hidden body?
You get the ring already by joining the covenant
@@LOLMGS Different ring. You get the Cat Covenant Ring by joining the Forest Hunter covenant.
To get the Ring of Fog you need to either kill 3 forest invaders, or trade the Skull Lantern.
This video is silly. It has to be made just for all the ensuing comments. I guess it worked
Ultimate strat: use grass crest shield or any other shield. Walk in room while shielding. Dont go forward. Block first hit of dog dodge roll Capra kill first dog. Rinse repeat… this boss is test of shielding . the second dog doesnt agro until you move further in. Used to hate it but its not terribly difficult with a decent plan.
I swear, at some point we’re gonna to have someone try to defend the Bed of Chaos. 😪
capra demon was never hard, ds1 has hands down the most easiest bosses in the souls series. so much so that i have to actually run through the bosses in my head when thinking of what boss i should try to put my sign down for, since most of the bosses in the game are so easy that no one will summon you for it, even capra demon oddly enough lol. 0 signs outside capra demon the few times i attempted.
I was one of the people who threw an alluring skull on their first playthrough, and got F'd up. Despite this, I was not aware that the skulls do not actually work on dogs until this video, I've always just assumed that it was some kind of error on my part, lol. After the game taught me to throw the alluring skulls into the fire on the way up to the church in the burg, in order to kill the armored boar, it made sense that the game would expect me to try using them again, if I had any left, in order to remove the initial aggro during Capra Demon.
Was curious to hear what you had to say and unfortunately I very strongly disagree and think this video is of very poor quality with how you approached it.
-Barely anything said applies to someone's first experience with DS1 and comes from the perspective of a veteran which is just low-quality analysis
-There is a very high chance this is a fight you'll do very early in your playthrough before most significant equipment discoveries, possibly including high poise armor
-Saying it's a lesson from this fight that you can leave and come back when you're stronger basically comes from playing Elden Ring. As far as any player is concerned, they have zero reason to believe this isn't a fight they have to do to progress the game
-It's such a strange reach to propose stealth as a solution to a degree I feel confident in calling it a dumb argument, taking just a minute to consider how many filters you have to go through from that option shows this: 1.Assumes player uses sorcery 2. Somehow managed to find any of the spells required before running into Capra Demon 3.Starts the fight and comes to the conclusion it requires a solution outside of "dodge move, kill boss" which no, the presentation does not in any way indicate a puzzle 4.Remember they have any of the aforementioned spells 5.Assume they would work in a boss fight and especially one in a small space 6.See it doesn't work properly but use precious spell slots for it
-Alluring skulls not working fully confirms this is not a puzzle as it is the primary tool anyone's brain would immediately go to if they looked for any alternative to "Dodge move, kill boss"
FromSoft made a badly designed boss fight whose difficulty comes from being shoved in a tiny space with multiple enemies on a really bad camera system, FromSoft has lots of bad stuff in their games and it's all worth criticizing instead of this which I'm going to charitably refer to as boot-licking
Can't say that I agree that rescuing dusk for her spells is a great solution, the hydra is definitely a bigger challenge than the capra demon. It's like telling someone to hunt a lion because there's something useful for Boar hunting in its den.
In my own blind playthrough I killed the hydra first. It seemed natural. You encounter the entrance to Darkroot right across from Andre, who can juice up your gear for you before you even go in. And once you learn to position yourself between the heads’ paths, it’s not really a challenge. You just wait a second, walk over, and poke the neck. If I had any interest in sorcery on my first run, I might have actually figured this solution out. I bet at least one wizard main did.
Hydra is deceptively easy since once you get in the water any 100% shield trivializes it. that being said it certainly appears like a more threatening boss especially since closing the gap to the Hydra is quite perilous.
I definitely think that the hydra is harder for a new player. The strategies people are suggesting are not something a noob who doesn't even understand about kindling it's going to have an easy time with. And once you do, you're probably skilled enough to just brute force your way through Capra anyway.
That and AND you have to reload the area to find Dusk, almost nobody will do that without a guide.
@@WitchLuna7 yeah. for an experienced player who knows how it works, the hydra is easy. But considering how much damage its water breath does, and how easy it is to fall into the lake and die while attempting to get close to it, not to mention all of the crystal golems which are an entirely new enemy type the player will never have encountered before, a new player is probably going to die if they go after it too early.
Next Video by illusory wall: "Hydra-the most missunderstood boss" 😂. And people like you are saying that beginner players are dumb and can't think.
I think part of the issue with the Capra Demon is that, once you find your way to Undead Berg, the game is really very linear up until you hit that fight. Capra Demon feels like it's at the end of that linear path, and the idea of stopping there to backtrack to the place with the giant lightning demon that you never tried to get past or abandoning this clear path to go back to Firelink and start taking a completely different one is not at all intuitive. All of the solutions to the problem essentially boil down to "go somewhere else for awhile and come back when you're more prepared," but not only does the flow of the game not encourage players to do that, it actually makes it feel like an unnatural choice.
I feel very differently about the level progression. You already have to backtrack through the Undead Parish to open the door on the bridge. Whereas the Darkroot Garden is a likely destination for those who've cleared the Gargoyles and have the Parish bonfire as their latest home base. Some players will be deterred by the Titanite Demon, but some won't and that's just a very natural path to follow.
@@illusorywallthe Titanite demon being right beside a bonfire always struck me as a set up of "this is a mini boss, but you are free to try as many times as you want" there is even a shop between the fire and fight so you spend souls instead of use them.
Combine this with how easy the butterfly is, and its reward. I feel like the game intended you to fight the titanite demon and butterfly before the gargoyles at all.
The unknown key for Lautrec even serves as a bit of a reminder for people to see they have the lower undead burg key that they never used when checking the description.
Another thing I want to mention is the beta design, that had that bridge that would seemingly connect Firelink to just beside the boss arena, would have lent itself more organically to the idea of leaving and trying a new path. Sure it was scrapped for one reason or another, but I feel like they possibly intended for you to ignore the fight for a bit.
With that shortcut letting you easily purchase the spells since all those NPCs refuse to sell you things before they move. Said spells also probably making the catacombs easier for you to fight Pinwheel first
6:40 What average player is dropping 20k souls on a key or fighting giants cats without being told to go there BEFORE THE DEPTHS?
The kind of idiot who gets the Master Key as a gift and gets lost in the woods. It's me. I'm the idiot.
Me... I did my first playthrough this summer and dealt with the butterfly after the gargoyles and met my doom with sif before even going into the depths
@@leebard9335 the master key doesn't unlock the forest. You have to either buy the item or go through the cat area.
I did it because I saw the forest and the big gate before I saw lower undead.
@@justaperson559 Well yeah, but since that was the "next" area I came to after Havel and had a good amount of souls already just farmed for a bit to get the key. Then the player NPCs in the woods give so many souls I fought the ones that respawn over and over to make up what I spent.
None of your suggestions for making this fight easier make sense for me to do on my first playthrough.
Poise as you said, is a very obtuse mechanic, which i barely even knew existed when i played.
And the other 2 relly on me having access to spells, which i was not even slightly interested in when i played, and even besides that, why would i think stealth would work in a boss fight?
On my first playthrough i also couldn't really get the staircase strat to work because it's a bit too specific to really figure out if you ask me, so overall this just feels like youre biased because when you fought him for the first time you were overleved.
I agree with all of this…on a repeat playthrough
When you know these things are in the game, it allows you to come up with unique solutions and piece it together like Legos and it’s AWESOME. It’s the best thing about Dark Souls imo
But my problem with Capra comes 99% from the first time you fight it. Cause yes these strategies exists, but if you don’t use them you just have a boss fight that isn’t fun. It doesn’t even give you enough time to analyze the room or get a feel for things before you die. And these thing made thousands of people who could have loved this game drop it. Cause without these strats, the fight isn’t fun. And you don’t keep playing things that aren’t fun
It’s the same reason I don’t like adaptability in DS2. It’s a great mechanic that adds a lot to the game, but it isn’t explained well enough to teach new players about it. And if you don’t use the mechanic as intended, it makes the game less fun just for you not being “in the know”
I do agree that I wish stuff like stealth was encouraged more by the community, I’ve played this game 5+ times and I’ve never even touched stuff like aural decoy. I think I may try to in my next playthrough.
Great video despite my disagreement
Even if it is a puzzle fight, it is still badly designed. Because you can't say that an encounter is good only given that you have the necessary item(s)/spell(s) for it. Because then the obligatory condition will be that player should have been lucky to get the item and have it equipped. And honestly, how many of you had the Wolf ring equipped on your first playthrough when you entered the boss?
My point is, if an enemy guaranties hit on you no matter what you do it is a badly designed enemy. For a new player, that did not searched the wiki or saw somebody play, the death on *at least* first time entering the fog gate is basically guaranteed
I think it's ok to need an item or spell to make an encounter manageable. The problem with capra, is that it really doesn't give you time to think at first.
Even if you know xyz item/spell will work (which you probably don't at this stage of the game), you barely have the time to equip it or change to it. So most players will probably die and have to do the frustrating runback.
And the most logical and accessible item in this situation, the alluring skull, simply doesn't work.
@@WitchLuna7 There's also not really a logical thread to why most of the solutions should work. Why would you even think about stealth when the enemies seem to know that you're entering before you've even fully entered. Why would you expect the distraction spell to work when the alluring skulls that you have actually been telegraphed *should* work in a situation like this one, don't actually work.
The only actual "reasonable" solution is poise, and I don't think anybody can argue that poise is particularly hinted at by much of the design in the game leading up to this point either. Even if you vaguely know that poise is good, having some conception of there being breakpoints to help you tank the hits is a tough sell. To then both know about poise, to know that you should find ways to stack poise, and also have an idea about *how* to stack poise, it starts becoming far fetched.
@@neruneriPoise is not the only reasonable solution.
Picking up a shield and thrusting weapon is another blatantly obvious one.
@@neruneri I actually completely agree with you, I was just offering a counter argument that even if you accept this it's a puzzle boss and these are the solutions (which I don't agree with), it's not designed well to give players the proper space and time to think through the options, like most puzzle bosses will.
@neruneri Also the dogs do 20 poise damage which is a lot for most early game armors. If you don't find the giant's set or the wolf ring (I'm 3 playthroughs in and still don't know how to get to it) you're going to have to equip hollow armor most likely, which isn't very good.
A new player? Hidden body?
You mean telling them to tell me that a new player is going to think to fight the giant hydra in darkroot? THEN think to return to the cave in the back that they saw nothing in before, if they even *did* do that?
Also lmao @ ring of fog, big ask for a newbie to run into a new area and even figure out there's a covenant they can join that rewards them with it AND that it happens after winning 3 fights.
Aural Decoy is still kinda gatekeep-y, just because anyone theoretically 'can' cast it doesn't mean new players are going to think "Hmm, my knight should randomly fuck off and invest in magic and buy this very specific spell to distract the dogs". Plus, it's rather popular to want to play as an 'archetype' and not mix-and-match. Plus, there was plenty of talk of magic being the "easy mode" of the game, so some might avoid it out of pride.
Poise is the only legit one that doesn't require knowledge potentially out of your league to get, and that only works if you're playing heavy. Yes, 21 poise to tank a single dog bite. There's two dogs there and you are VERY LIKELY to get hit twice. Nevermind someone might not even notice the stairs are a good idea right away.
The fight is basically a instant-death jumpscare, too. It's not like you can pause and think it out like most puzzles, in a game that has asked you to solve nearly zero puzzling problems before now. That Capra Demon is right on you, and so are those dogs shortly after. Your newbie is unlikely to be heavyweight, so the result is getting staggered and slaughtered for all but the most skilled new players. That instantly puts a bad taste in the player's mouth of feeling unfairly killed. But then they have to think how to survive, and there's not a lot of tools available for you to deal with multiple enemies at once in Dark Souls. The game has mostly taught you to lure them out one at a time to keep things manageable, even hitting you with the hollow gank trap in the parish to punish charging right in.
So the only real solution is "Cheese" or "Come back overpowered".
Dark Souls isn't a puzzle game and that's not what anyone bought into when they started playing this game. This fight gets to sit in the bin with bed of chaos as 'unwelcome puzzle fights'.
When fairness of a single player game is to be determined by “the discourse surrounding it” I think you have your answer right there.
I remember trying alluring skulls as a new player and being disappointed.
Ended up just running up the stairs like most people.
To me there's one thing that I think they should have added to this fight, and that's a way to look at the boss room and see what's in it before you step inside, because once you're in you're overloaded with a ton of information and need to make quick reactions while dodging three enemies, and that's not very conducive to thinking critically, but you can't consider the boss room without physically being inside it. For a puzzle boss I think you should be able to look closely at the puzzle.
Believe me, after thousands of hours in all the 3 Souls games, and hundreds of hours in Demons’ Souls - this fight is still 50% luck, if not more.
Regardless if you have poise, spells, or knowledge, the dogs can bullrush you and stagger you into one of the Capra’s swings, which is based on his proximity to the player.
The dogs can also just leap around you, when they do their lunge attack, and cause you to miss, taking counter damage from the other dog or the Capra Demon.
The dogs can fall off the staircase and stagger you, same with the Capra Demon, if their AI decides to try to attack, or does a wrong turn, leading you to getting hit.
It doesn’t matter what level you’re at, how much knowledge you have, or your gear - this boss is still poorly designed and there’s a reason this encounter was never repeated in future Souls games; Royal Rat can be done the exact same way, each time, with the same results, because it also has a timer before the main boss enters.
The Capra Demon is also supposed to be fought either before or after Gargoyles, so a player will have zero idea of what to expect, and have a limited toolset at this point - nothing in the game ever just goes “BOSS FIGHT WITH TWO ADS!” unless you count the start of Taurus Demon, but those are slow-shooting guys that are able to be killed before the boss even shows up.
I hate to break it, but it’s not a puzzle boss, it’s just bad design. I’ll die on the hill that says DS2 is a better game than DS1 and 3, but I’ll never say Capra is a puzzle, or that it’s not reliant on luck.
Doesn't rescuing Dusk require defeating the hydra, which lies behind 4 or 5 crystal golems _and_ knowing to reload/return to the area so the gold golem spawns? That seems arguably more difficult and knowledge check-ish than just fighting Capra normally.
Yes. I refuse to believe this video isn't satire because of that suggestion.
I think some changes could be done to the fight to make it far better:
- slowing down how fast you get jumped. We could, for example, get an animation where Capra Demon is turned around or to the side (maybe trying to get into a house?), and once you enter the gate, he turns around, raises hand to point at you, and dogs rush you, before the boss jumps it. This would make the fight better in two aspects. For one, it would give you a few more seconds, so it retains all that claustrophobic feeling and the puzzle aspect, but gives you just enough time to assess the situation and approach accordingly. This was my biggest gripe when I was playing initially - you get jumped and killed so fast that you have no time to think, and fog gate isn't transparent. For two, it also makes the fight feel more organic - they aren't waiting for you to pass the gate like a videogamey boss and jump as soon as you get in.
- if we keep the gimmick of getting jumped - let us have a peek into the arena before going in. Perhaps some hidden path or angle you could see from, so that you get rewarded for paying close attention to surroundings as you explore.
- lastly, reduce the runback. Even with the one connected to Firelink, it still takes above a minute. Without the changes I listed above, over a minute of runback is very discouraging towards experimentation, as a wrong try will lead you back to bonfire within seconds. And distraction on the way in form of hollows and dogs doesn't help it either.
I feel like From Software struggle to decide whether they want their RPGs to be in the mold of something like Pokemon or Chrono Trigger where there's a small and pretty clear list of correct options for dealing with any given obstacle and picking the wrong one is heavily punished, or in the mold of something like D&D or Skyrim where you're supposed to define a character by restricting what they're allowed to do from an arbitrarily-wide list of options and every option is about as viable as every other option, at most giving the game a slightly different texture depending on who your character is.
Their later games have moved in the direction of type-B design, with baffling exceptions like Rennala arbitrarily being an unpleasant roadblock for magic users, but Dark Souls was originally compared to things like Ocarina of Time which are very much in the type-A mold. Type-A players have no problem with the idea of picking up a spell catalyst and using Aural Decoy on a wall or changing their equipped rings to use stealth regardless of what they were doing up to that point, but a type-B player might reasonably argue that those aren't appropriate for the character they're playing at which point the only options left are "get good" (which in the case of the Capra Demon might actually be "get lucky") or cheese.
"with baffling exceptions like Rennala arbitrarily being an unpleasant roadblock for magic users" or you know they can just go somewhere else and come back with stronger spells or more FP and if that's a problem they can just use magic that deals non-magical damage like Rock Sling or Gelmir Sorceries.
Ideally they could get the best of both worlds with a fight like Yhorm. Yhorm has a gimmick/puzzle that requires you to momentarily change your equipment but actually has more hidden mechanics that allow you to fight the boss with any build almost as efficiently as with the storm ruler. Having a harder solution that allows you to still use your build gives b-type players what they want without likely interfering with the a-type players experience of the encounter.
The hidden mechanic is he takes much more damage in the arms and head what he conveniently always lets you hit at the end of all of his combos.
You also get a stagger when hitting him normally that makes his head for a short time take extremely high damage. There’s actually another solution like this for ancient wyvern in ds3. It’s partly why I personally was very disappointed with Rykard. They even gave him a move that requires an ash of war to dodge. I really don’t think Rykards any better than Capera demon for a player like me. At least he’s a great character and looks cool.
In type A there is no point in the game having weapons to choose from...
All caster starting classes come with a weapon in their inventory that can be upgraded and used in a situation where magic isn't usable.
You're not forced to use spells, and even in that regard, some spells cover elemental damage types that are uncommon for their casting tool.
I find that if you treat these games like a survival horror game (using everything at your disposal to survive) they're waaay easier.
But a lot of players (specially the hur durr unga bunga ones) want to roll and R1 their way through the game and complain about bad design when it doesn't work. This specially true for Dark Souls 2. It's also baffling to me how resistant some people are to bows and magic in a fantasy game.
I disagree with Rennala. I think it's cool that my character isn't strong against everything, specially since being a mage it's pseudo easy mode in Elden Ring. As Masahiro Sakurai mentioned in a recent video, increasing the weaknesses and strengths proportionally it's a better balancing method than making everything even.
It's also nice from a roleplaying perspective. You're not getting away with throwing magic at the magic school principal lol.
Making it so the alluring skulls distract dogs would've made things a whole lot better. And it would also help deal with the fire-breathing dog who always follows you to the first bonfire in Blight Town.
One thing you don't really touch upon, is the fact that you need to already knows what will happen in the fight not just to win, but to survive the first 10 second. Not only the arena is small, capra is situated pretty close to the fog gate with no buildup, no cutscene or standing up animation, and the dogs could easily close your escape path before you could process capra, putting you in stunlock position.
Capra is pretty easy, but it's not a wonder how a lot of people just dismiss it as a bad fight or straight up hate it and written it as luck.
Regardless, Capra fight is a bad design because it could easily kill players before they could process what's happening, it's like punishing someone because they made a mistake on their job but you don't tell them how to do their job. You don't want that, you want players to fail with the feeling that it's of their own admission(accord?), not the game.
tldr: capra fight is bed of chaos floors, kills you with barely any indication, that's bad
Buddy that's the whole game. The entire series even. Enemies attack from blind corners. Enemies attacking from behind you. Enemies popping out of the ground without warning. Floors collapsing without warning. Being teleported without warning. Being trolled by archers. Being trolled by spellcasters. Being trolled by dogs. Being trolled with maximum health loss. Being killed by NPC's that appear to be friendly but are actually are not. Being killed by player invaders online.
It's not supposed to be fun, fair, and easy. That's why people like these games.
@@TheCrewExpendable fun and easy is entirely subjective so I won't talk about that. But the game being fair (most of the time) is precisely why people love these games.
The games while have a lot of ambush, they are not near guarantee kill for first time players, 99% of the time if you approach anything in cautious manner and always being on alert you will come out fine, which is not possible for capra fight.
Ambush doesn't immediately means unfair, have you checked your surroundings, your destination surroundings, have you thought about retreating and taking a breather, formulating a strategy instead of jumping straight on? Maybe switching strategy instead of sticking to one? The ability to do these in 99% of encounters makes the series quite fair.
I mean let's take a look at your examples, enemies attack from blind corners or behind you, have you checked these blind corners, looking around in the room you're in, did your ears picked up any moving sounds, or did you just walk straight on because you see an enemy out in the open? Have you thought retreating and give the new enemy a wide berth as you process what's happening?
Enemies popping out of the ground is well I don't really remember much, except for one example I remember vividly is bone towers that immediately surround you on silver covetous ring in Tomb of The Giants, you however were given plenty of time to run between the gap as they have slow movement and attack speed. And then you can even immediately homeward bone out if you don't want to deal with them
Floors collapsing only a problem in bed of chaos, I don't remember any other that gave me problem.
I don't know why being teleported to a room without enemies with all your stuff intact is considered unfair
Trolled by archer and spellcasters, ever thought to staying back and rethought your strategy? Switching your gears to better suited against them? 100% block shield? decent anti magic shield? Greatshield? Maneuver around them? Ranged attack them back and pick them off one by one?
Dogs? Shield. The teleporting dogs in ds3 is bs, though that's more of a programming flaw (see zullie videos).
Losing health is not much of a problem because the games were balanced with the gimped health in mind, except ds2, but ds2 is ds2
NPC who?
Player invaders are literally real people, I don't know what to tell you that unless they are cheating or twinking, it's literally a skill problem
I heavily disagree with the idea this is a puzzle fight which kinda derails the whole argumentation. Poise is just a general mechanic that makes most encounters in DS1 a joke including artorias, stealth even in the latest games enables a myriad of obviously unintended situations in bossfights and if decoys were actually an intended strategy there's no reason skulls shouldn't work.
"It's not a puzzle because the solutions help in other parts of the game", that's why I'm saying it's kind of a better puzzle in some ways than other puzzle encounters.
The decoys thing is its biggest shortcoming, but for whatever reason they wanted the spells to be a lot more effective than the consumables. In both DS1 and DS2, the decoy spells affect a LOT more enemy types than the alluring skulls. I think this encounter was a victim of that poor design choice, but it doesn't mean they weren't cool with the spell working.
same
I hated capra demon boss so much that i've googled/youtubed how to pass it. I didn't knew poise, decoy, invisibility, sneak. I saw bomb from outside but i didn't liked it. I saw the magic shield but i had to level up few times to unlock and therefore i've ignored it. Actually none of those solutions were mine, my turning point was light equip to fast roll, then run up the stairs, kill dogs, deal with the boss.
I must admit i came here just to share my grudge, but i have to think again. This video is incredibly educational and your points are fair and solid.
I appreciate that the cheese portion of the pie chart was yellow
Stockholm syndrome the video
I've never even played DS1 to this point, but this just summarizes it perfectly. Had to look up the upload date to make sure it wasn't an April fools joke. I get the idea, but the implementation is awful.
Room temperature take: it's not that the Capra Demon room is fundamentally terrible.
It's that dogs are consistently The Most Aggravating Enemy in every Souls game ever made by From.
beautifully edited, I love this game so much and to see stuff that i was unaware of is INSANE!
Experiment all you want but I fail to see where the game encourages or rewards you for it... There are dozens of different items, weapons, stats, strategies, etc. you could reasonably try experimenting with (which often costs you limited resources), just to get killed within 10 seconds and congratulations, you get to run back again. Where's the reward?
There's a reason these janky "puzzle" moments are frequently the most hated parts of every FromSoft game. Sure they're not based on luck per se, but they absolutely do require trial and error, and I don't see how that's any better when the game punishes you by wasting your time every time you die.
Hope this doesn't sound overly harsh lol, I love this channel and Dark Souls, just writing out my thoughts
It's not overly harsh and I appreciate the comment!
I believe the reward is that the fight goes from hard to easy with all the tools/ strategies mentioned. Plus they're all applicable to other parts of the game. I had someone else in the comments saying they had no idea that stealth would be so effective for making the Blowdart Snipers of Blighttown not shoot until you're very close to them. The reward for players learning about these things is quite significant!
You're not wrong that this requires some trial and error though. I personally don't think that dying a few times before going "hey wait a sec, how do I make passing through the fog gate not a problem" is the end of the world, but I can appreciate that some players won't dig that. But to be perfectly fair, being that critical of trial and error means that even really well-refined boss fights are open to the same criticism. Because maybe they're "fair", but they're hard enough that you're probably going to die 10+ times in order to get better at handling their movesets. So, trial and error is still present in the end. Trial and error is more baked into these games (and most video games) than I think a lot are willing to admit, but I don't think that's inherently a negative or unfair thing. That's just inherent to any game with any kind of challenge, really. You're gonna have to repeat some parts to get better at them or figure them out. :)
@@illusorywall Thanks for the response! For me, I guess the difference is that when you're learning a more action-based fight, ideally you can see what kills you each attempt and have a good idea of what to do next time. It might take many tries, but there's a sense of progression.
With a boss like Capra, it doesn't come across as clearly what you're doing wrong and what you should try instead. And once you do figure something out, the result is just an anticlimactic fight that's over quickly.
Having said that, after reading your pinned comment, I can see your main point is not just about Capra being good or bad game design, and more about how the community perpetuates the idea that there's some RNG factor present and discourages players from really engaging with the game. And I can't really disagree with you there!
I’m sorry but this seems like a lot of assumption and cope to justify bad design
It’s a sloppily made fight, and while there is a strategy and consistent way to beat it, I don’t think the devs really had anything crazy in mind
Exactly. Souls fans just can’t admit Fromsoft games can have bad design choices.
Agreed. It's just a dumb fight, once you know the gimmick it's such a trivial fight. It essentially goes from bullshit to lame, not really much interesting in terms of game design. I kinda think the guy who made this video just wants to feel smart for figuring out something really basic about the game.
I always thought alluring skulls were made specifically for this fight lol, I'm a hoarder though so I never used them but to learn that it doesn't work makes me a bit sad
Also I really wish dark souls consumable all worked like estus, estus is such a good concept to control the tools the player have access to and prevent hoarding but somehow they limited it only to health potion. If you had like, 1 alluring skull and could use it once per rest, or have to collect multiple resin type but only could use a single one per rest it'd be much more interesting.
To balance the number of consumable you have access to I'd also make it so you can only change your quick item bar at bonefires and that only some key items could be used from the inventory like the dark soul or pvp item, that way you'd build your loadout for the next section without abusing everything you've found so far.
It's a digression but yeah I think if that was the case players would be much more open to creative solutions to problems.
I actually really like that idea, that would be pretty cool. I feel like it would add a lot because you would simultaneously feel like you had more at your disposal, but also like you had to be far more selective, yeah, I like that, good idea :)
Perhaps the most interesting assumption to me in this video is that "throwing firebombs over the gap in the wall" is too cheesy, but "killing the boss while invisible to the dogs" or "using a spell that distracts them into beating up the brick wall while I standing right there hitting them" isn't.
Because one is actively breaking the game, while one is an actual game mechanic that is at your disposal, those spells and other things were made for a reason. Like, c'mon, you HAVE to see that, right?
@@SirBiscut2470how is it breaking the game? From could have built the wall higher, from could have made the dogs not have hitboxes until the player crosses the fog wall, it didn't do those things.
@@greenpinapple820 if you are about to say that doing that was an intended game mechanic then idk what to say, there is ABSOLUTELY a different there, idk how you don't see that.
very nice video as always. one thing to add: i think there might be another piece of the solution. the game gives us as players always items to work with and solve those puzzle fights. i believe that its not a coincidance, that the key to lower undead burg is next to the halberd. the halberd has long reach, a pierce attack for the small area in the boss room up the stairs AND a big spin attack with the heavyattack. Furthermore if we look at the weapons we get in the area: the mail breaker. upon closer inspection we learn, that this sword can attack while blocking leading to another way to deal with the dogs and since it's super light weight, one could easily equip the halberd and the mailbreaker to have a big advantage IF one finds the spot up the stairs and uses the piose solution as well
Another problem with the camera is the fog gate itself. Usually in boss fights, you have a moment to get past the fog and collect your bearings, but with this fight, you're already being swarmed before can see what's happening. It doesn't help that PtDE had a low framerate, making it that much harder to quickly react to it.
Early-game players are also less likely to have combed through the fan wikis to know their options with stealth or the wolf ring.
The real problem with Capra and the difficulty balancing of DS1 is general is that going low poise with a slow weapon makes the game x10 harder while high poise fatroll tier builds with any weapon just breaks the game allowing you to trade and chug between hits with almost every boss and never just roll/block.
Also the way poise is distributed between armors, like the starting set of the Warrior has zero poise except for 5 on the helmet. Yet the Hollow Warrior Set that looks like a torn vest and leggings with a shoe missing have 16 poise. WHAT A SCAM!
I bet there there is a quite substatial number of players that used the default first starting class, Warrior because it seemed an ok all-rounder then quit DS1 at Taurus, Capra or Gargoyles because all the stunlocking trying to use a weapon like the Claymore or Zwei and getting poked out of the animation by a dog or hollow.
It's really no surprise DS2, DS3 and ER made poise values more consistenty tied with the weight and defense of armors while also going back to weapon based hyperarmor, armor poise being just a buff to those frames.
that's how I beat 4 kings and nito in my first play through. I put on full havel and just drain tanked lol. dumb as hell
It was also a problem with Demon's Souls. Picking a Knight and not knowing about world tendency can be hell. If you pick Royalty, use magic, and always kill yourself in the Nexus after bosses; the game becomes easier than most mainstream games. Hell, you literally can one shot most bosses with Fire Storm.
I miss DS1 poise (although agree it could've been distributed differently). Hyper Armour only made playing a "tank" build feel non viable in the later games. Or at least made tanky builds play almost identically to lightly armoured ones with the same dodges and poise.
Capra demon is the definition of an unfair fight, with a way to make it fair. The only real problem is that the game's camera has a low view angle and collides with terrain. Leading to a situation where if you get trapped you can't even see shit. Most new players won't be able to respond properly and just die confused and angry. The solution, don't get trapped =P
11:58 "And this why I feel the fight is so fundamentally misunderstood."
Maybe this is why you feel the fight is misunderstood. But that's not why it's misunderstood. You make a great case as to what the intentions for that fight might have been. But that's not at all how it was received. It's not misunderstood because nobody gave it a chance. It's misunderstood because it's poorly thought out and/or poorly realized. And that's okay.
But what that whole segment about advices on reddit tell you point blank, is that a fifth of the people thought it was bullshit enough to not bother and just cheese it. And the rest have to tell you directly to use the stairs or teach you the invisible poise mechanic to "solve" the puzzle.
Like, you explain it well and all, as usual, your video is super well scripted and produced. But in that very case, your point remains moot in the face of how the fight was received and is remembered: it's bullshit.
At the end of the day what good is a puzzle if to solve it you need 100 redditers to debate what the answer might be? At what point are you allowed to say it's a bullshit solo challenge?
You can give all the justification, the what ifs (you came from dark root garden, or have a super heavy shield, or throw this and that)...it's still bad design. You can get over it, yes, there are solutions, maybe intended ones, the most obvious being the stairs. But it's still a ridiculous fight/puzzle, in a super cramped space, that you either fail in the first 10 seconds and have to walk 5 minutes to retry, or succeed in first phase and have to jump on the head of the boss for 3 minutes...
And if it is the way people discover the poise and stealth mechanic, I think it's even more egregious to the overall difficulty or worst, reticence, FromSoft has towards any form of tutorial. Which is weird, judging by how good their level design and mechanic design is, you'd think they would have find a solution to teach without telling at some point.
Still it's super interesting to dissect that boss fight. But still not to play.
I agree it allows for experimentation, but I disagree that's this is a solid defense of the overall design of the Boss Fight.
Three very easy changes would be to have the arena slightly larger for fewer camera shenanigans, have the dogs in front of the capra demon so you can see and recognize them, and mirror the stairs so the platform is on your character's LEFT when you turn back to face the dogs to prevent jankily bonking the wall when you swing your weapon (which can make you slide off the platform). Bonus points to have the dogs bark at you for a second or two when you walk in to alert the capra demon to your presence - this also helps your immersion.
That's all that's required to make this fight feel less like a cheap "gotcha!".
I also think that to even consider stealth, one would need a greater understanding of how this mechanic even works. Why would stealth work in a bossfight, when you get charged immediately opon entering? And sure, since the dogs are just normal enemies it works on them, but how is a new player supposed to make the connection?
theres another way to fight the capra demon which is what i used on my first playtrough, the magic shield which is also bought from Griggs, it allowed me to just tank the capra demon's first swing without breaking my guard so i could safely run up the stairs
This is a much more reasonable solution than what Illusory Wall has proposed
It was the way I did it as well, when first playing.
- Poise is incredibly effective and easily the most straight-forward solution to get to the stairs, but newer players either won't know how it works or where to get strong enough armor. Wolf ring is your best bet to not get stunlocked but you'll still be getting mobbed by the boss and his pets. The stone armor is found behind a bunch of forest hunters and a door that costs 20,000 souls to open, or reached by a secluded ladder next to a hydra.
- Why would a new player think to use stealth when they're in a cramped boss battle like this? Especially since the only ways to use stealth are a spell you buy from princess dusk, a covenant item, and a spell and ring in Sen's Fortress/dropped when you kill a merchant. Maybe in NG+ it's a fine idea since you might have them by then but if you're in NG+ you ought to be plenty strong enough already to not need it, especially because the method is only useful against the dogs. It's an interesting way of confronting the boss, but it's really unnecessary
- Diversion would be much more reasonable if alluring skulls worked, considering you can buy them from the female undead merchant not far from the boss. Aural decoy is great because of its low requirements, but alluring skulls not working is such a missed opportunity.
- Firebomb/Dung Pie cheese is likely a developer oversight. It's a strat that makes things way easier but you're hardly interacting with the boss
Regardless of these strategies alleviating the encounter, it's still not very well designed. The arena is incredibly small and the boss aggros as soon as you step through the fog (with the fog still covering your screen), so you have to dodge immediately, then followed by the dogs. The player doesn't have the time to assess the situation before getting mobbed. It's hardly presented as a puzzle boss.
Yeah I’m one of the players who crouched in a 50 meter radius from Tree Sentinel.
And thus, I missed the church and the first merchant for 2 or more hours 💀
Here's a comment for the algorithm but I love your content please don't stop telling me new concepts about the souls games.
The annoying thing to me is not the boss itself. It's the 50 minutes runback from Firelink to then get stunlocked and die in 10s 😂
You don't need to run from the Firelink. There's a shortcut door to the Undead Burg bonfire.
@@melik1985 You do realise that run back is even worse
@@porkwhisperer3050 Ah, you're right. I forgot about that shortcut where that lone hollow archer stands. OP was talking about 50 minutes runback so I took that almost literally haha.
i think illusorywall got a bit lost in the sauce with this one. ds1 was not encouraging new players to use mechanics like stealth or poise, which they wouldnt know about anyways. he said the fight was misunderstood, but i think its just poorly designed.
if a bossfight is frustrating, its not the player's fault for not finding the fun, its the game's fault.
encouraging players with hours-long tutorials was never the point of dark souls.
@@thefebo8987 Pretending that "showing that this mechanic is even in the game" is the same as "hours-long tutorials" is not honest discourse. Stop it.
@@BaronSterling you can buy these items from an NPC found in the same level. What do you want more?
@@BaronSterling dark souls is a game which is encouraging players to think outside the box from the start. The first boss is the perfect example for this design principle.
poise was not to be used? of course it was, the dogs are fast and attack you early. poise is the first thing that should pop up in a player's mind for the fight.
They hate capra because they think its cheap and unfair. I hate capra because i basically exclusively play with item and enemy randomizers. We are not the same
On a serious note i think the problem is you dont have time to react to the fight sometimes due to the terrible camera
i'd agree with you if the game encouraged such experimentation more. it's not fair to expect the player to suddenly do something they weren't expected to do for the rest of their playthrough so far
THIS IS AMAZING thank you for still making DS1 content. I’m 5 seconds in. I’ve always liked bed of chaos and when I found out people hated it I was shocked. It’s funny getting killed by the branches imo I laughed every time I tried to jump over a gap just to get knocked away. I didn’t find it hard at all and I still think it’s fun honestly, but I hated Capra demon only for the run back
I have since become a Capra demon believer too though
Edit: Now that I’ve watched the whole thing, I agree with your rationality and would only add that you should consider making games