What are your thoughts on the interactions and contacts between ancient Egypt and Greece? Support Dr. Kelder up above in the video description by checking out his awesome work. Support the channel at the links below! Help us have Dr. Kelder on again by sharing this video for more views! To support the channel, become a Patron and make history matter! Patreon: www.patreon.com/The_Study_of_Antiquity_and_the_Middle_Ages Donate directly to PayPal: paypal.me/NickBarksdale Enjoy history merchandise? Check out affiliate link to SPQR Emporium! spqr-emporium.com?aff=3 *Dislaimer, the link above is an affiliate link which means we will earn a generous commission from your magnificent purchase, just another way to help out the channel! Join our community! Facebook:facebook.com/THESTUDYOFANTIQUITYANDTHEMIDDLEAGES/ Twitter: twitter.com/NickBarksdale Instagram: instagram.com/study_of_antiquity_middle_ages/ Facebook Group: facebook.com/groups/164050034145170/
Greetings from Greece! Thanks for the excellent content. I absolutely respect your passion and approach to the science of history. From someone who studied history.
I am literally in the throws of reading “Early Greece” - Oswyn Murray ( 2nd ed) and the section on the economy and trade and in particular trade with Egypt which intrigued me greatly. Now I find this fantastic illustrated talk by Dr Keller on the subject. Thank you so very much for posting and Dr Kelder in particular.
It’s so nice to hear Aegina pronounced correctly. It’s usually said as that cringy Ee-JYE-na. Of course in modern Greek the G is sliding into a Y sound.
Thank you for this update on thoughts on this topic. As silver is a lot less rare than gold, it is also more logical to have been used for trade than gold. It is after all something rare enough, but not too rare, so both trade groups have a resource of equal value to trade with. Is there some database for ancient mine sites and their estimated periods of exploitation in relation to pottery yet? Trying to put that into a animated heatmap may lead to interesting insights. It could probably show powershifts taking place over time in many ancient societies.
Excellent and scholarship and enlightening about dynamics in the Bronze Age. Reminds me of a visit to the Hera temple near Corinth where many Egyptian mementos were left by Greek sailors as temple offerings.
I wish he would talk more about the Hykso's at Avara in Egypt. I think they had Myceanean ties, as they introduced the horse and chariot to Egypt, and bronze weapons. Many think the biblical Exodus was tribe of Dan, which were called "Danaan" in Homers Illiad, and we know they were Mycenean.
vin russo No Aegean ties, I am afraid! They may have employed the odd mercenary from Greece. The chariot had been introduced in the near East by ca. 1800 BC, and we see groups with Indo European links (Hittites, who are clearly Indo European) and Mitanni (who are mostly Hurricanes, but may have been In close contact with Indo European groups: their elites worship Indo European gods, and they have names that are also of Indo European stock). The Hyksos likely got their innovations from them.
@@Jorritkelder can you elaborate more on the fact that mycenean name for Egypt is almost the same as the name for Egypt in Arabic? Does that mean it is what the Egyptians thought themselves or what exactly. I was puzzled when I first saw the piece showing that in a museum's website, but out seemed to have been grossed over.
philo 3 Hi Philo, thanks for the question. The Egyptians did not normally consider themselves “Egyptian” -notions of statehood or belonging to a nation seem to be a fairly modern concept. Nevertheless, abroad they probably referred to Egypt as the “black land” (because of the fertile soil along the Nile). “Misr” seems to have been the Semitic term for Egypt even at that time (many Levantine languages, and Akkadian, are “related” to modern Arabic and Hebrew). The fact that there is a Greek reference to “Aikyptos” is interesting, and may suggest that (the temple of Ptah at) Memphis had already become so noteworthy that it could be used to designate the whole country (much like “Holland”, though only a relatively small part of the Netherlands, is used to refer to the entirety of the country). All in all, the multiple names certainly seem to suggest that the Egyptian were very active abroad -otherwise one would have expected only one name for the country.
I am Egyptian from the Balkans we have come to Europe over 3000 years. In the Balkans there are many Egyptians living all over the Balkans - Greece - Albania - Kosovo - Macedonia Montenegro - Bosnia - Bulgaria and Romania ... iron. The Beginning of the Iron Age and the "Iron Revolution" periodically I coincide with the so-called Dynasty XIX in Egypt, or Pharaoh Seth I (1294-1279BC) and Ramses II (1279 - 1213 BC) [2]. After all they were more interested in using iron, these pharaohs began to import iron from countries near Egypt but also from most remote places like Anatolia, North of the Apennines, Cyprus, Peloponnese etc.
I'm also from Balkan,and wanna ask you something.. How come that there's no Egyptian artefacts in Balkans? And no Egyptian records about this part of Europe?
@Chuck Thunder Egyptians were never a great sea farring nation,they sailed mostly on the river Nile and their coast of Mediteranean.. They didn't have ships for long distances,but Phoenicians and Sea people did..
SuperAutsajder Thanks for the question! The people in the. Balkan did, as far as we know, not write at that point in time. As for the lack of Egyptian references to that region: I suspect that contact was mostly indirect, via Greece. When Balkan elements amongst the sea people reached Egypt, they almost certainly had mixed with aegean and anatolian groups, too -and thus were essentially new entities. This may explain why the Egyptians referred to various groups amongst the sea people that were not, or rarely, mentioned before.
@@jorritkelder573 youe right,Illyrians at that time didn't have writting system.. But there was obviously well developed trade.. For example,Amber from Baltic,tin from British isles,lapis lazouli from Afghanistan was found in Mediteranean,Mycenean linear B was found in Germany.. So they must had some knowledge about each other.. Many of these artefacts traveled through the Adriatic and Black sea,so it's mystery to me how Egyptian artefacts wasn't found in Europe,and how come that Egyptians didn't have records about it.. And seems to me that Phoenicians traveled everywhere but Europe.. They had colonies all over Mediteranean and even Atlantic ocean,sailed around Africa,but not in the Adriatic sea,almost in the hart of Europe? Isn't that weird? It's also fascinating to me how ancient Greeks colonized big part of Mediterranean and Black sea,coast of two other neighbouring continents,Africa and Asia,but they didn't expand north on Balkan and Adriatic sea,which would be logical? About Egyptian records of Europe,are you familiar with the Tale of shipwrecked sailor and mysterious Land of Punt,trading partner of Egypt? I'm pretty sure that this story is actually about first contact of Egyptians with Europe..
Please I have a question. The Trojans were a client state of the Hittite empire. It was thought that Assyrian contracted the Greek Mycenaeans To put pressure on the The periphery of the Hittites And if that’s so then diplomatic communication stretch further than that of between Greece and Egypt. Any truth to this?
there is a Hittite treaty with a client King 'Sausgamuwa' --who ruled in the Levant-- which stipulates that 'no Ahhiyawan ships should go to Assyria'. This has indeed been taken as evidence for a Hittite Embargo on Assyria (first suggested by Eric Cline, I believe). I am inclined to think that this may be a reference to the Hittites trying to prevent Ahhiywan (=Mycenaean Greek) mercenaries to go to Assyria. The geopolitical context of such texts remains difficult to assess though, so to some extent this will always remain conjecture. I hope this answers your question!
This is good content! THUMBS UP....,two thumbs to be precise. Both thumbs would be in capitals (the highest grade posible) if there where more moving visual animation....., but still 1 capitel THUMB plus a second normal one is a very good show in my opignion;) Greetings bibia.
Since there was ancient civilization North of North Korea with Stonehenge and waved sword only mostly found in Korea and North region, there as a culture that had religion, language, culture, metallurgy. If that is the indication, the recent discovery of the red mountain including the Godness statue wearing a Bear necklace (Bear is symbolic for women in Korean culture at that time there was Bear nation and Tiger nation and Bird nation(the root of ancient Korea has bird at top of their totem poles) and most likely Bird nation took Bear nation's princess(VIP woman) as Bride) -- that dates back 7000 BC. Fast forward to about 700 AD, After writing was more prevalent, the numerous books scripted by "GongJa"(Confucius) words by his followers from China indicated "GongJa" say he learned everything from 'north' civilization. Thus, most historical documents indicate China's civilization was derived from this civilization. The Chinese books indicate 'north' civilization just 'north civilization' without a name. However, Korean calls in "GoChoSen" which means ancient (go) Cho (bird) sen (nation) of the old Korea. This first civilization of east Asia was so large that its people moved out to both east and westwards. The same or exact same artifacts are being discovered in North Italy to Ireland and Finland, to east all the way to Mexico, and along the traveling route, same or similar artifacts and languages are found. By the way, the next nation was called "Gogyro" which means hook which the ying-yang symbol came from, it means 'order or harmony via governing' set by GoChoSen. And following after GoChosen was the nation name of "Go (old) gyro (hook)' the 'hook' part 'gyro' became 'Korea' in the present day. It's interesting to find "Mississippi" "Michigan", etc and its meanings are the same as Korean! "Mi" - means in Korea is 'freshwater or river'; "chi or ci (si)" - means in Korea 'fish' - sippi and gan - means in Korea 'place (home or house), Again only in old GoChoSen languages. Note that in linguistics, it's very hard to not only match the sound but also the meaning. If I follow the logic, unless there was a large population and civilization with the resource and advancement of culture only can have the means to explore in the motivation of necessity or curiosity. And the people from such civilizations can only expand and overlap o ver further expansions It may be worth studying the "yo-dong" civilization and first nation of Eas Asia (or maybe the human Sapien Sapien) "GochoSen" more in-depth. It can bring together the puzzles of where nations come from and why there was a road before the silk road that was well-traveled with premium horses and carts with carts at least 5000 BC before the silk road.
We have always had a strong connection with Greece , not via Alexander the Great and the Ptolemaic dynasty. In fact, we are more connected to Greece and the levante than many other areas, particularly subsaharan
Schliemann has long been suspected of having one of the Mykenean gold masks made, or remade, in his own image, I’m not sure which one, but I’m guessing the one shown here, with its little Hitler mustache (yes, I know it was earlier than that). The most sickening aspect of this is: what Mykenean gold artifact(s) did he melt down to make it? I doubt if he bought the new gold for it himself.
How about slaves? We know that Greeks (Myceneans) brought slaves from their east conquests to their lands. I can't imagine a trade without slave exchanges for that time. Was Egypt a slave free society?
We do indeed have references to 'douloi' in Linear B texts, and these persons may well have been slaves (although their status may have differed from their namesakes in Classical Greece; they seem to have worked especially for sanctuaries). The problem with slaves and other unfree (and indeed, even 'free' but poor) people is that they hardly appear in the texts, and if so, often without much context. I don't think they are mentioned in Egyptian or Hittite texts, though there are of course references to captives (from wars, for example), and we also know that forced labor (for example in the mines) was a form as punishment for criminals. In short, I think it would be naive to think that there were no slaves in ancient Egypt --depending on one's definition of course-- and certainly during the New Kingdom (when Egypt truly became a significant international power), there must have been an influx of 'unfree' people from abroad, but it remains difficult to assess how many there were, what role they played, and what their exact status really was.
Angleterre , écosse, Irlande , Norvège , France, Espagne, Portugal, Italie, Grèce , sud Albanie, Iran , Irak, sud Turquie, sud Syrie , Israël actuel, Jordanie, Liban, Palestine, nubie misraim, Portugal, Afrique du Nord , troye, Chypre and misraim egypto black and africains peuple and culture. Mégalithes black and africains culture and Sahara antique in Afrique Afrique mégalithes black culture and black nations black peuple.
What are your thoughts on the interactions and contacts between ancient Egypt and Greece? Support Dr. Kelder up above in the video description by checking out his awesome work. Support the channel at the links below! Help us have Dr. Kelder on again by sharing this video for more views! To support the channel, become a Patron and make history matter!
Patreon: www.patreon.com/The_Study_of_Antiquity_and_the_Middle_Ages
Donate directly to PayPal: paypal.me/NickBarksdale
Enjoy history merchandise? Check out affiliate link to SPQR Emporium!
spqr-emporium.com?aff=3
*Dislaimer, the link above is an affiliate link which means we will earn a generous commission from your magnificent purchase, just another way to help out the channel!
Join our community!
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You may need to adjust audio! Have a great weekend everyone!
Greetings from Greece! Thanks for the excellent content. I absolutely respect your passion and approach to the science of history. From someone who studied history.
I am literally in the throws of reading “Early Greece” - Oswyn Murray ( 2nd ed) and the section on the economy and trade and in particular trade with Egypt which intrigued me greatly. Now I find this fantastic illustrated talk by Dr Keller on the subject. Thank you so very much for posting and Dr Kelder in particular.
Thank you so much for a fascinating talk!
That was fanstastic, thanks
It’s so nice to hear Aegina pronounced correctly. It’s usually said as that cringy Ee-JYE-na. Of course in modern Greek the G is sliding into a Y sound.
Thank you for this update on thoughts on this topic. As silver is a lot less rare than gold, it is also more logical to have been used for trade than gold. It is after all something rare enough, but not too rare, so both trade groups have a resource of equal value to trade with. Is there some database for ancient mine sites and their estimated periods of exploitation in relation to pottery yet? Trying to put that into a animated heatmap may lead to interesting insights. It could probably show powershifts taking place over time in many ancient societies.
Excellent and scholarship and enlightening about dynamics in the Bronze Age. Reminds me of a visit to the Hera temple near Corinth where many Egyptian mementos were left by Greek sailors as temple offerings.
Thank You!
You're welcome! Enjoy!
Thank you!👌
Really interesting this!
I wish he would talk more about the Hykso's at Avara in Egypt. I think they had Myceanean ties, as they introduced the horse and chariot to Egypt, and bronze weapons. Many think the biblical Exodus was tribe of Dan, which were called "Danaan" in Homers Illiad, and we know they were Mycenean.
vin russo No Aegean ties, I am afraid! They may have employed the odd mercenary from Greece. The chariot had been introduced in the near East by ca. 1800 BC, and we see groups with Indo European links (Hittites, who are clearly Indo European) and Mitanni (who are mostly Hurricanes, but may have been In close contact with Indo European groups: their elites worship Indo European gods, and they have names that are also of Indo European stock). The Hyksos likely got their innovations from them.
Ario potententially, but there is no evidence they were. Their names, gods and customs seem Levantine.
@@Jorritkelder can you elaborate more on the fact that mycenean name for Egypt is almost the same as the name for Egypt in Arabic? Does that mean it is what the Egyptians thought themselves or what exactly. I was puzzled when I first saw the piece showing that in a museum's website, but out seemed to have been grossed over.
philo 3 Hi Philo, thanks for the question. The Egyptians did not normally consider themselves “Egyptian” -notions of statehood or belonging to a nation seem to be a fairly modern concept. Nevertheless, abroad they probably referred to Egypt as the “black land” (because of the fertile soil along the Nile). “Misr” seems to have been the Semitic term for Egypt even at that time (many Levantine languages, and Akkadian, are “related” to modern Arabic and Hebrew). The fact that there is a Greek reference to “Aikyptos” is interesting, and may suggest that (the temple of Ptah at) Memphis had already become so noteworthy that it could be used to designate the whole country (much like “Holland”, though only a relatively small part of the Netherlands, is used to refer to the entirety of the country). All in all, the multiple names certainly seem to suggest that the Egyptian were very active abroad -otherwise one would have expected only one name for the country.
Love to the Dutch, my grandfather was from the edge of the North Polder.
What is the name of the track and the interpreter at the beginning and end end of the video? Sounds great.
Thank you
They all knew eachother
I am Egyptian from the Balkans we have come to Europe over 3000 years. In the Balkans there are many Egyptians living all over the Balkans - Greece - Albania - Kosovo - Macedonia Montenegro - Bosnia - Bulgaria and Romania ...
iron. The Beginning of the Iron Age and the "Iron Revolution"
periodically I coincide with the so-called Dynasty
XIX in Egypt, or Pharaoh Seth I (1294-1279BC) and
Ramses II (1279 - 1213 BC) [2]. After all they were
more interested in using iron, these pharaohs began to
import iron from countries near Egypt but also from
most remote places like Anatolia, North of the Apennines, Cyprus,
Peloponnese etc.
I'm also from Balkan,and wanna ask you something..
How come that there's no Egyptian artefacts in Balkans?
And no Egyptian records about this part of Europe?
@Chuck Thunder Egyptians were never a great sea farring nation,they sailed mostly on the river Nile and their coast of Mediteranean..
They didn't have ships for long distances,but Phoenicians and Sea people did..
SuperAutsajder Thanks for the question! The people in the. Balkan did, as far as we know, not write at that point in time. As for the lack of Egyptian references to that region: I suspect that contact was mostly indirect, via Greece. When Balkan elements amongst the sea people reached Egypt, they almost certainly had mixed with aegean and anatolian groups, too -and thus were essentially new entities. This may explain why the Egyptians referred to various groups amongst the sea people that were not, or rarely, mentioned before.
@@jorritkelder573 youe right,Illyrians at that time didn't have writting system..
But there was obviously well developed trade..
For example,Amber from Baltic,tin from British isles,lapis lazouli from Afghanistan was found in Mediteranean,Mycenean linear B was found in Germany..
So they must had some knowledge about each other..
Many of these artefacts traveled through the Adriatic and Black sea,so it's mystery to me how Egyptian artefacts wasn't found in Europe,and how come that Egyptians didn't have records about it..
And seems to me that Phoenicians traveled everywhere but Europe..
They had colonies all over Mediteranean and even Atlantic ocean,sailed around Africa,but not in the Adriatic sea,almost in the hart of Europe?
Isn't that weird?
It's also fascinating to me how ancient Greeks colonized big part of Mediterranean and Black sea,coast of two other neighbouring continents,Africa and Asia,but they didn't expand north on Balkan and Adriatic sea,which would be logical?
About Egyptian records of Europe,are you familiar with the Tale of shipwrecked sailor and mysterious Land of Punt,trading partner of Egypt?
I'm pretty sure that this story is actually about first contact of Egyptians with Europe..
Please I have a question.
The Trojans were a client state of the Hittite empire. It was thought that Assyrian contracted the Greek Mycenaeans To put pressure on the The periphery of the Hittites And if that’s so then diplomatic communication stretch further than that of between Greece and Egypt. Any truth to this?
there is a Hittite treaty with a client King 'Sausgamuwa' --who ruled in the Levant-- which stipulates that 'no Ahhiyawan ships should go to Assyria'. This has indeed been taken as evidence for a Hittite Embargo on Assyria (first suggested by Eric Cline, I believe). I am inclined to think that this may be a reference to the Hittites trying to prevent Ahhiywan (=Mycenaean Greek) mercenaries to go to Assyria. The geopolitical context of such texts remains difficult to assess though, so to some extent this will always remain conjecture.
I hope this answers your question!
This is good content!
THUMBS UP....,two thumbs to be precise.
Both thumbs would be in capitals (the highest grade posible) if there where more moving visual animation....., but still 1 capitel THUMB plus a second normal one is a very good show in my opignion;)
Greetings bibia.
any recommendtion to read about greek trade during the archaic period?
You might want to try Demand's "The Mediterranean Context of Early Greek History". It provides an overview of the Bronze to Iron Age connections.
Since there was ancient civilization North of North Korea with Stonehenge and waved sword only mostly found in Korea and North region, there as a culture that had religion, language, culture, metallurgy. If that is the indication, the recent discovery of the red mountain including the Godness statue wearing a Bear necklace (Bear is symbolic for women in Korean culture at that time there was Bear nation and Tiger nation and Bird nation(the root of ancient Korea has bird at top of their totem poles) and most likely Bird nation took Bear nation's princess(VIP woman) as Bride) -- that dates back 7000 BC. Fast forward to about 700 AD, After writing was more prevalent, the numerous books scripted by "GongJa"(Confucius) words by his followers from China indicated "GongJa" say he learned everything from 'north' civilization. Thus, most historical documents indicate China's civilization was derived from this civilization. The Chinese books indicate 'north' civilization just 'north civilization' without a name. However, Korean calls in "GoChoSen" which means ancient (go) Cho (bird) sen (nation) of the old Korea. This first civilization of east Asia was so large that its people moved out to both east and westwards. The same or exact same artifacts are being discovered in North Italy to Ireland and Finland, to east all the way to Mexico, and along the traveling route, same or similar artifacts and languages are found. By the way, the next nation was called "Gogyro" which means hook which the ying-yang symbol came from, it means 'order or harmony via governing' set by GoChoSen. And following after GoChosen was the nation name of "Go (old) gyro (hook)' the 'hook' part 'gyro' became 'Korea' in the present day. It's interesting to find "Mississippi" "Michigan", etc and its meanings are the same as Korean! "Mi" - means in Korea is 'freshwater or river'; "chi or ci (si)" - means in Korea 'fish' - sippi and gan - means in Korea 'place (home or house), Again only in old GoChoSen languages. Note that in linguistics, it's very hard to not only match the sound but also the meaning. If I follow the logic, unless there was a large population and civilization with the resource and advancement of culture only can have the means to explore in the motivation of necessity or curiosity. And the people from such civilizations can only expand and overlap o ver further expansions It may be worth studying the "yo-dong" civilization and first nation of Eas Asia (or maybe the human Sapien Sapien) "GochoSen" more in-depth. It can bring together the puzzles of where nations come from and why there was a road before the silk road that was well-traveled with premium horses and carts with carts at least 5000 BC before the silk road.
We have always had a strong connection with Greece , not via Alexander the Great and the Ptolemaic dynasty. In fact, we are more connected to Greece and the levante than many other areas, particularly subsaharan
Mi-KEE-nae is a better pronunciation for Mykenea/Mycenea. C is always pronounced as K in Greek, modern or ancient (in Classical Latin, too).
Schliemann has long been suspected of having one of the Mykenean gold masks made, or remade, in his own image, I’m not sure which one, but I’m guessing the one shown here, with its little Hitler mustache (yes, I know it was earlier than that). The most sickening aspect of this is: what Mykenean gold artifact(s) did he melt down to make it? I doubt if he bought the new gold for it himself.
I don't think he did that.
Excellent ! Does this relate to Greek orientalising period 7-8 BCE ??
Mercenary should be listed first.
👍🥈
How about slaves? We know that Greeks (Myceneans) brought slaves from their east conquests to their lands. I can't imagine a trade without slave exchanges for that time. Was Egypt a slave free society?
We do indeed have references to 'douloi' in Linear B texts, and these persons may well have been slaves (although their status may have differed from their namesakes in Classical Greece; they seem to have worked especially for sanctuaries). The problem with slaves and other unfree (and indeed, even 'free' but poor) people is that they hardly appear in the texts, and if so, often without much context. I don't think they are mentioned in Egyptian or Hittite texts, though there are of course references to captives (from wars, for example), and we also know that forced labor (for example in the mines) was a form as punishment for criminals. In short, I think it would be naive to think that there were no slaves in ancient Egypt --depending on one's definition of course-- and certainly during the New Kingdom (when Egypt truly became a significant international power), there must have been an influx of 'unfree' people from abroad, but it remains difficult to assess how many there were, what role they played, and what their exact status really was.
04:00 - Butthead??
Angleterre , écosse, Irlande , Norvège , France, Espagne, Portugal, Italie, Grèce , sud Albanie, Iran , Irak, sud Turquie, sud Syrie , Israël actuel, Jordanie, Liban, Palestine, nubie misraim, Portugal, Afrique du Nord , troye, Chypre and misraim egypto black and africains peuple and culture. Mégalithes black and africains culture and Sahara antique in Afrique Afrique mégalithes black culture and black nations black peuple.