An Orthodox Perspective on Sola Scriptura (w/ Fr. Josiah Trenham)
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- Опубліковано 12 лис 2020
- Sola Scriptura is at the heart of the Protestant faith. In this clip, Fr. Josiah Trenham explains why the Orthodox church REJECTS Sola Scriptura. Interested in seeing the full interview? Go to: • Fr Josiah Trenham on ...
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Hey! My name is Austin, and I'm a 21 year old guy with a passion for people. I believe the good news is that God is better than we could've ever hoped, and I love sharing this message of grace and love with anyone that will listen. I'm the former Digital Marketing and Video Production Coordinator at a large, evangelical church in Frederick, MD, and I'm currently a student at Moody Bible Institute in Chicago, IL. When I'm not writing papers or making UA-cam videos, I do freelance work as a Wedding Photographer/Videographer and social media consultant. On any given day you can find me with my nose in a book or a guitar in my hands. Want to get to know me more? Follow me and say hi on Instagram at: @austin.suggs
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I'm a Catholic priest liking a video of a protestant interviewing an orthodox priest. I think the Holy Spirit is guiding you.
Deus te abençoe imensamente, Padre!
Um grande abraço de um católico do 🇧🇷 Brasil!
Achei que eu era o único brasileiro aqui kkkkkk
@@arthurolinto6501 Hahahaha, há brasileiros em toda parte, amigo.
Brazilians everywhere! 😄
And Asian Catholic convert from Buddhism and Taoism!
@@jeremiahong248 God bless you, Jeremiah! Our Lord Jesus Christ is great!
The Orthodox position on Sola Scriptures is exactly the same as the Catholics!! Well explained Fr Josiah!!
And Orthodox are also Catholics! "Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church" is the official name
@@JJ-cw3nf Yes brother !! And fellow CPA !😁
@@JJ-cw3nf No, the Orthodox Church schismed from the Roman Catholic Church,
There are Eastern Churches which have entered communion with Rome, but they are no longer Orthodox.
@@Bashcutter funny way to put that. 4 out of 5 patriachates separating from the last one constitutes a schism, and not rather that Rome schismed from the other 4 🤔
@@Bashcutter So if the Eastern churches in communion with Rome are no longer Orthodox, then logically they must be heterodox. Just saying...
Fr. Josiah is terrific! So glad you had him on your channel! 😃
You are terrific! 😁
Look! It's Bojan! ❤
He’s fantastic and nice as can be. I was so grateful he said yes! You almost have to feel bad for him though because he had to follow up THE Bojan Teodosijevic.
@Catmatix Heaven's empty, and all the Orthodox UA-camrs are here :D
This thread made me so happy
I've been Protestant Church of Christ all my life. I have so much more life, love, and understanding since the Lord has lead me to Orthodox. Finally victory over lust. Praise be to The Heavenly Father through the Son.
Another Church of Christ kid here… God has me a similar but different path than you. I remain in our tribe at the moment prayerfully hoping to be used to bring our heritage back to its roots. A unity movement who calls all believers in Jesus the messiah brothers and sisters. I pray God continues to use you where He lead you. Peace and grace, brother.
You are lost.
@MyNameIs Nope.
Been a devout member of the Church of Christ my whole life but orthodoxy has gotten hooks in me the last two years. Still unsure where God is leading me but I pray for peace and grace everyday.
You are all lost. Get saved the easy way. God's way!
As an evangelical Christian I guess, I so appreciate the perspectives of Orthodox and Catholic brethren as clarifying. Thanks so much, brothers.
Glad to hear that!
Hold fast to the traditions that you WERE taught" past tense...whatever it was it was given in the 1st century and the RCC can't tell you whats in this supposed oral tradition anyways they just use it as a talking point...so where do you get the justification to anachronistically import doctrines such as infallibility, Marian dogmas, etc that comes hundreds or thousand + years later into that passage?
Excuse me sir...The Scripture comes from the mouth of God (God breathed) theonoustas” through the apostles...you (he) said "it actually comes from the mouth of the apostles" IT ACTUALLY COMES FROM THE MOUTH OF GOD!
@@Adam-ue2ig That's because not everything the early Christians believed was written down or fully defined. Christianity grew like a tree. By your argument, why was the Trinity later imported? That wasn't fully formulated until hundreds of years later just like the Marian dogmas.
@@Adam-ue2ig the Trinity you can explain from old and new testament,,,
The Marion dogma is explained from christians!?!
As a recent convert to Orthodoxy from decades in Reform churches, all one has to do is look around at all the further splintering into such heresy as Word of Faith, NAR, Prosperity gospels, etc., and realize well, none of these things occur from the Orthodox. I'll stick to the original source of the historical Church.
FACTS!!!! I’m a current Protestant considering the Orthodox Church and I’ve been so fed up with prosperity gospel, word of faith, and NAR etc.
May God be with you in your journey. I was a Protestant for over 30 years, but was baptized in the Holy Orthodox church last year. The journey is so worth it.
Come on over. The water is fine
@@flawlessvic That is wonderful. Which Local Orthodox Church did you become a member of?
@@flawlessvic I was asking you which Local Orthodox Church you became a member of because there is an ongoing schism within Orthodoxy that started in 2018 and as a result some Local Orthodox Churches fell from Orthodoxy and now are not part of the Church.
The Constantinopolitan Patriarchate fell from Orthodoxy in 2018. I will point the arguments why that is so.
First, the Constantinopolitan Patriarchate has embraced an eastern form of papism. Here is what he says:,,The beginning of the Orthodox Church is the Ecumenical Patriarchate; “in this is life, and the life is the light of the Churches.” The late Metropolitan Kyrillos of Gortyna and Arcadia, a beloved Hierarch of the Mother Church and personal friend, was right to underline that “Orthodoxy cannot exist without the Ecumenical Patriarchate.” (www.uocofusa.org/news_180901_1). This is a indirect claim for infallibility.
Second, the decade-lengthy process (starting more severely in the late 1950s) of spreading modernistic theology by some modernistic Orthodox theologians, unfortunately gave bitter fruits to the point that the Constantinopolitan Patriarchate embraced the modernistic claim that the teaching of the penal subsitutionary atonement (which is an Orthodox teaching and a teaching of the ancient Church), is a late Western teaching and today rejects it. (www.goarch.org/-/btb-173?inheritRedirect=true).
(There must be noted that modernists recognize the term PSA only in the sense of Christ saving us from death by subsitututing it with His Death on the Cross but reject the term in the sense of Christ saving us from God's wrath and the eternal punishment by substituting with the penalty of the Cross the the penalty awaiting the unrepented sinners.)
Third, there are the non-canonical actions of Constantinople in Ukraine. These actions caused an arising internal schism within the Eastern Orthodox Church. This is an English translation of the letter of the Bulgarian Metropolitan Daniil of Vidin to and eparchial metropolitan bishops of the Patriarchate of Alexandria, Patriarchate of Jerusalem, Church of Cyprus, Church of Greece, Albanian Orthodox Church and the Romanian Orthodox Church: new.sliven.net/res/news/292888/___________________.pdf. He explains the issue of the 2018 Moscow-Constantinopolitan schism entirely from a canonical perspective.
This is a link to a famous 1995 Letter from Patriarch Bartholomew to Patriarch Alexey of the Moscow Patriarchate on the Ukrainian Diaspora: orthodoxsynaxis.org/2018/10/10/1995-letter-bartholomew-alexey/. In the letter the Patriarch clearly refers to the groups that were later included by the Patriarchate of Constantinople in the recently formed Orthodox Church of Ukraine (2018) by issuing of a Tomos of autocephaly, as schismatic groups. The Patriarchate of Constantinople openly entered communion with the newly formed church of Ukraine that consists of those schismatic groups. But the communion with excommunicated persons, leads to excommunication of those who have communed with them:,,And, if any one of the bishops, presbyters, or deacons, or any one in the Canon shall be found communicating with excommunicated persons, let him also be excommunicated, as one who brings confusion on the order of the Church.'' (canon 2, Council of Antioch, 341). That is why it is argued by some Orthodox theologians and priests that the Patriarchate of Constaninople is no longer a part of the Eastern Orthodox Church since 2018. In other words it fell from the Church like the non-Chalcedonians in 451 and Rome in 1054. Unfortunately there is a danger that the internal schism could grow bigger.
The Alexandrian Patriarchate supported the schismatic OCU in 2019 and as a result the Moscow Patriarchate ceased Eucharistic Communion with it like with the Constantinopolitan Patriarchate in 2018. That way the Alexandrian Patriarchate also fell from the Body of the Church. Nowadays the Constantinopolitan Patriarchate and the Alexandrian Patriarchate and the Churches which took the side of the schismatics and recognized them are not part of the Eastern Orthodox Church. Those other Churches are partially the Churches of Greece and Cyprus - partially because some of the bishops of their holy Synods did not and still do not recognize the new OCU. Things can change if they can become again part of the Orthodox Church but right now they are in a schism, thus being out of the divine grace.
I am Catholic, so far I watched 2 or 3 of your videos that popped up in my recommendation. I like your approach to all of this, I see that you wish for Christians of all denomination to get a better understanding of one another and in that was grow together towards Christ. God bless you.
Glad that you're enjoying the channel! God bless
This does very little to help that cause! If you understand that the physical foundation of the faith is completely Jewish with as Paul stated resting on the apostles and prophets with Christ as the chief cornerstone that holds it all together through election you would have a more solid understanding of why no true Christian unity could ever happen with the recognition of the pope as the true leader of Christendom. Those who are eternally lost will fall for such a unity!
@@bechet12 Pope is a heretic
@@aleksandarstavric2226 no doubt.
that sounds like ecuminism. we don't want to grow together with protestants and catholics.
What this priest is saying is totally in accordance with what the Catholic Church teaches about sola scriptura.
Thanks
The Catholic and Orthodox Churches were the same organization for nearly 1000 years.
@Phillip Hickman protestantism ofc
@Phillip Hickman heresy.
@Phillip Hickman its hard to proof an heretic the truth. you have to pray a lot and search information yourself.
we pray for you too
GOD bless you and HIS Holy apostolic catholic church 🌹
Watched it twice or thrice over the past 2 years
Fr. Josiah is brilliant
Thanks also to Austin for interviewing him
Glory be to God
To bad he misdefined Sola Scriptura
Wow father Josiah does very well on camera! Lol I wouldn't of known that from his liturgys. Very good humble man and he has a very almost ancient demeanor yet he's very open and inviting. Very kind of both of you to take time to do this interview.
He's a natural on camera!
I agree. He is by far the warmest Orthodox leader I have encountered. He even smiles and laughs....something I rarely see.
@@jmorra oh, man, come to more churches. We had one who came to the Romanian church who was a former Boston policeman and RC clergyman who converted, and the sermons were hilarious as well as reverent.
Thanks for taking us back to this! Excellent!
I can't wait for those interviews with Orthodox priests.
Hope you enjoy them!
You can find interviews with Orthodox priests on Orthodox channels. They don’t have an agenda to gain views for money.
@@DChristina Do you go to work with an agenda to make money? Asking for a friend
@@kilemyers784 - Check out Fr Syridon Bailey’s channel, also Protecting Veil. God bless💕
In answer to your question - yes I’ve worked many years in Portland and Silicon Valley as a professional drug & alcohol specialist (CADC II BA), helping addicts get into treatment as well as helping them once in treatment. Retired now:-) but volunteer a lot.
(I’ve unsubscribed to this channel so won’t see further comments.)
@@DChristina I've watched his videos on that channel, is him asking people to check out the books he wrote also fall into your category of having an agenda to make money?
I used to study to become a Pentecostal pastor and then read “The Orthodox Church” by Bishop Kallistos Ware and let me tell you.... the host’s face was the same as mine when I read the book then as when Father Trenham was dropping those truth bombs. God bless you for the humility to listen to him with such an open heart and mind. I am on my way to Russian Orthodoxy.
Thanks for sharing! I really enjoy Ware’s work
Hello could you explain a little about this.
What do orthodox think about protestants? they can go to Heaven or defenetly will go to hell?
And about latin catholics? Heaven or hell?
What i want to know is if orthodox think church saves.
Another thing is if you think that at the eucharist a sacrifice occurs or not? Does a sacrifice really happens like latin church says?
I like orthodoxy better than latin catholisism. But why do you think orthodoxy is better than protestantism. What are we doing wrong
@@saramolina8911 These are some really great questions, but they are hard to answer fully because protestants and Orthodox sometimes miss each other in a common understanding of terms. Being Orthodox doesn't mean by any means getting to definitively judge the state of another's soul, nor do Orthodox consider all other Orthodox to be saved merely by affiliation. St. John Chrysostom referred to the Church as a hospital for sinners, and that's what it is, just that Orthodox would argue that they have a fuller medicine cabinet to help with the terminal illness of sin, supplied by the Great Physician Himself.
The sacrament of the Eucharist is understood similarly in Orthodoxy and Catholicism, but with distinction: Orthodox don't feel the need to use human reasoning to understand what is incomprehensible, the turning of simple bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ. In Orthodoxy, we humble ourselves to this mystery. I'm going to avoid answering the sacrifice question (I can't do it justice) but I'll link some info for you.
Hope you continue to search for answers! God bless-
A starting point for your Eucharist question: www.oca.org/orthodoxy/the-orthodox-faith/worship/the-sacraments/holy-eucharist
A book that discusses an Orthodox view on the protestant reformers: Rock and Sand: An Orthodox Appraisal of the Protestant Reformers and Their Theology
by Father Josiah Trenham.
What Orthodox Christians Believe from the Antiochian Orthodox Church of America: ww1.antiochian.org/whatorthodoxbelieve
May God save you from temptations on your path, beware of Ecumenism trap, try to find truly Ortodox spiritual father, may God be with you, We are happy to see that western people are opening to first apostolic Church, greetings from ancient Serbian Ortodox Church founded by apostol Paul ☦️
@@marybee1594 Thank you so much, Mary. God love you, your family and your parish!
The Reformation principle of sola Scriptura has to do with the sufficiency of Scripture as our supreme authority in all spiritual matters. Sola Scriptura simply means that all truth necessary for our salvation and spiritual life is taught either explicitly or implicitly in Scripture. It is not a claim that all truth of every kind is found in Scripture( JM)
Exactly. In the vid he misunderstands sola scriptura with solo scriptura
Correct. That's why Sola Scriptura is more than sufficient; what more do we need than a clear path to salvation with the Creator?
You do such great work! And you are so open to other confessions - great ♥️
I was born into the catholic faith… my mother who was significantly physically handicapped, stopped taking us to church when I was five… I never understood much but she did but me some children’s illustrated bibles which I read several times, thankfully! But, I never felt like it was clear and straightforward. I eventually became a Christian hating atheist, then began to search for ‘answers’ after I conceded to agnostic thinking. I studied every religion and new age mindset techniques… then I began to look at Christianity with a new appreciation. After a lifetime of mostly signifigant failures in every aspect of my life, and a near death experience… I became fully Christian, highly influenced by the Protestants. I had been planning to find a church, thinking I’d go with the Protestants, but still having an appreciation for Catholicism. I finally began to pray for a Christian husband… and God quickly delivered! I was reunited with an old flame from my early twenties at 52 years old. The first thing he said to me was that he was super catholic. Something he never said to anyone in that manner before, he said. He said he didn’t know why he said that. But, I now feel like it was the hand of God. And so I started to listen and read catholic priests and others on the internet, mostly UA-cam. And it’s a whole nuther dimension compared to the Protestant content. I respect their effort to abide by biblical truth, but I agree with the heresy and culty preachings that come about when there is a breakaway from things like apostolic tradition. It’s actually a big topic for me, for years. Been planning to write a book. Still collecting data. Learning about Catholicism has really opened my eyes.
I'm quite new to this channel. Interesting content. This seems like a very honest inquiry into the many facets of Christian faith.
Thanks! Glad to have you here
As a Catholic I loved this teaching which is the same for the Catholic Church.
Glad to hear that
@Phillip Hickman Sola Scriptura is heresy.
@Phillip Hickman this quotation says nothing about Sola Scriptura. Where does it say Scripture ALONE?
Instead the Bible says:
"Stand firm, then, brothers, and keep the traditions that we taught you, whether by word of mouth or by letter."
2 Thessalonians 2:15
@Phillip Hickman fasting is prescribed, most solar scriptura ignore fasting.
"This is My Body...This is My Blood" seems clear?
Pick and choose?
Love!
Once a Protestant sees through Sola Scriptura they are no longer truly Protestant.
Strange sense some Protestants are Prima Scriptura
.
Unless a Christian accepts the authority of the scripture, they are not actually a Christian.
@@MattysModernLife We do however we also accept how to interpret them as well. That is Christian.
@@justchilling704 Protestants tend to be closer to Islam for practically worshipping the Bible. Their hatred of the Church betrays them.
@@MattysModernLife All the Scripture is encompassed in the Teaching of the Church but not all the Teaching is encompassed in the Scripture.
Syriac Orthodox Palestinian tuning in. Interesting stuff
Thanks!
According to canon 19 of the Council of Trullo, the Holy Scripture must be interpreted as the Church teaches. The reason behind this is that the Biblical canon was officially approved by the Council of Carthage in 397 AD. Excellent interview with Fr. Josiah. Austin, may God lead you to His Church.
Actually the Council of Carthage (397 AD) simply reinforced the Council of Rome (382 AD) formal proclamation about the sacred books, under Pope St Damasus I.
Neither were binding to all chuch as they were not ecummenical
@@saramolina8911 well said. Those are merely local councils.
@@RudyCarrerarullo is ecumenical. It is considered to be an appended portion of the fifth and sixth ecumenical councils because neither council has any canons. We even have evidence of early popes ratifying Trullo and considering it part of western canon law.
The difference between the true church & the counterfeit is that the true church has scripture & Apostolic tradition while the counterfeit claims scripture alone which results into a chain reaction of splinter sects
No, the difference between the true eternal spiritual church of GOD (1Peter 2:5-7) and the counterfeit physical church is that *the true church is comprised of Believers indwelled by GOD Himself and thus gets their spiritual truth directly from GOD and not from some sinful man (1John **2:27**, Matthew 23:9) -- whereas the counterfeit church is all about physical rituals (Matthew 15:17) and physical hierarchy (Matthew 20:25-26, 1Peter 5:3) and false interpretations of Scripture by the church leadership that Paul and Peter warned us about in Acts 20:29-30, 2Peter 2:1-3, 1Timothy 4:1-6, etc.*
*There is no such Biblical thing as "apostolic tradition" -- the APOSTLES were traveling PREACHERS of the Gospel to the lost unbelievers -- that was their job description* (Mark 16:15-16, Matthew 10:5-6, Acts 10:38-43, Galatians 2:7-9, etc) -- *the APOSTLES were not "bosses" of the congregation of BELIEVERS.*
@@veritasmuy2407 Nonsense. Churches have structure. The cults posing as churches can't agree, and frankly were killing each other at the beginning until the authorities restrained them. You brought shame to the faith, and it is precisely because of the loss of both authenticity and authority that atheism prevailed in Western culture. Nice work.
@@RudyCarrera YOU: The cults posing as churches can't agree, and frankly were killing each other at the beginning until the authorities restrained them. You brought shame to the faith
*ME: Doesn't compare to the Roman Vatican spending 1000 YEARS hunting down, torturing, murdering and stealing the assets of anyone in Europe that would not convert to Roman Catholicism -- creating untold numbers of widows and orphans thrown into the streets.* According to JESUS, Rome was doing the work of their father Satan for 1000 YEARS -- John 10:10, John 8:44, etc.
Rome has brought MORE SHAME on Christianity than anyone else -- *and their blasphemous abominations are still going on today -- or have you forgotten about the Amazonian Synod,* protecting pedophiles, rampant homosexuality, etc ???
@@RudyCarrera YOU: Nonsense. Churches have structure.
*ME: GOD's "ekklesia/congregation/church" is completely different from the structure of worldly kingdoms that have lords/bosses over them -- see Matthew 20:25-26.* BECAUSE God's Church is comprised of Believers that indwelled by GOD HIMSELF -- each individual Believer has the power of GOD indwelling them (2Corinth 6:16, etc) -- each individual Believer has direct access to GOD that indwells them (Ephesians 2:18) -- each individual has the power of GOD to heal, cast out demons, etc (John 14:10,12). -- *and it is when any 2 or 3 of these Believers gather together, that is the "ekklesia/congregation/church" of GOD with power to bind and loose, etc -- see Matthew 18:18-20 -- sometimes its even the least esteemed in the congregation that makes binding decisions for the church/congregation -- see 1Corinth 6:4.*
There is no formal hierarchy of leadership in GOD's church (1Peter 5:3) -- *no need for a spiritual "pope/papa/father" who claims to be the one with God's "infallible" truth, because Believers are indwelled by GOD and get GOD's Truth direct from GOD -- see 1John **2:27**, Matthew 23:9.* No need for a formal priesthood to forgive sins -- Jesus' blood on the altar in Heaven 2000 years ago has given Believers ETERNAL, PERPETUAL, NEVER ENDING forgiveness for our sins (Hebrews 9:12,26,28, Leviticus 17:10-11). etc
@@veritasmuy2407 Classic Heretic Prot reply full of falsehoods, lol
I am so glad I clicked on this video!! I have had a sudden interest over the last few weeks in the Ortodox Church. I went to a local Coptic church last Sunday, but unfortunately, I couldn't understand anything. But I got recommended St. Andrews Church. I was thinking about checking it out but its an hour away. After this video, I'm definitely going this Sunday. This is their Pastor! And he cleared up my questions on Sola Scriptura perfectly.
Great conversation. Thank you!
Wow!! I learned so much! I need to watch it 2 more times to fully comprehend what he just explained!! Thank you so much !.
My pleasure!
U r ignorant! Saul didn't write thessolonians 2. Do not understand the dark ages? The church became God and controlled kings and every aspect of life! Solis scriptura took away their power. Ever heard of the Spanish inquisition that lasted 350 years? This greek slimeball knows better. Also that church was built 1500 years after Saul.
Excellent argument, to which I would add that scripture itself is only held to be authoritative BECAUSE of non-scriptural tradition. It was the church fathers of the first three centuries who determined which writings would be accepted as canonical.
Thanks for sharing
The church fathers accepted anything demonstrably apostolic.
They did not choose which writings were authoritative.
That's really misleading in several ways...the Word of God is self authenticating and has several identifying marks and characteristics that make it accessible to know without any council or Canon process (also the inner witness of the Spirit)
...the scriptures were already widely circulating by end of first century before any claims that RCC determined a canon hundreds of years later...also the RCC never officially declared their canon until 16th century...also the Jews laid up in the temple their booKS and the deuterocanonical or apocryphal were not laid up..
It's a long complex discussion in which space does not permit here.
Only to a point. The internal content of the canonical gospels is internally consistent, in both theology and form, from, say, pseudo-Christian documents like the gospel of Thomas. It is a no-brainer to see which one does not belong. The authority outside the texts certainly was a factor, but less so than you suggest. Just read those other documents. Not only do they not sound at all like Jesus, they are boring and silly.
2 can play in this game: By denying the authority of the Holy Scriptures, you deny the canonical authority of those Church Fathers themselves.
very good words... may God bless you for what you are doing on here.....
A lovely interview...
Very clear and illuminating
Thank you very much
My pleasure
Hello
There’s also letters referenced by the Apostle Paul in his Scriptural Epistles that aren’t in the Scriptures.
This is true
“Inasmuch as many have taken in hand to set in order a narrative of those things which have been fulfilled among us,
just as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word delivered them to us,
it seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write to you an orderly account, most excellent Theophilus,
that you may know the certainty of those things in which you were instructed.”
Luke 1:1-4 NKJV
@@freeman7055 I’m not sure what you’re supposed to be meaning by this quote...
Wait. What? His Epistles became scripture. smh
@@davidhall2197 not all his Letters became part of the Scripture Canon. Have you ever read the Epistle to the Laodiceans he mentions in Colossians 4:16....?
Shake your head some more.
Thanks for these videos.
My pleasure!
This was a very solid refutation of Sola Scriptura by Fr. Josiah!
Great Points! Completely agree with Fr. Josiah.
To be fair, Orthodoxy always encouraged lay reading of scripture EXCEPT for Revelations. Only professionals were allowed to read it in full. Even wealthy Orthodox people who could afford their own Bible could not have The Apocalypse included for private ownership. While going back to that is futile now, I kind of reluctantly agree with the idea behind it. It is clearly the most dangerous scripture to get wrong.
That's really interesting
Can I get any sources on this? I'd like to learn more.
@@DChristina in most Orthodox Churches, Revelations is quoted written on the walls or around the dome!
Love to you!
@@noway165 - Thank you & God bless💕☦️
This is true in the Armenian Orthodox church. Not sure if it was in personal Bibles (though it certainly was included when they switched to printing from manuscripts, in the 1600s). But Revelation is never read aloud in the churches as a daily reading. It isn't discussed in sermons (or it isn't supposed to be). And I agree with the reasoning for it absolutely. I don't know about the Greeks and other Byzantines.
As a Protestant, I have learned a lot from Orthodox Christians. My main contention with both Catholicism and Orthodoxy is different than most I would guess. I truly appreciate the reverence in the Cathedrals. I think you can find great wisdom in writings from the Church Fathers when it is consistent with scripture. I recognize the value of tradition. The ability to identify and follow the deeper symbolism in the Scriptures is truly life changing. The main hang up point on me for both is not Icons, Veneration, The Blessed Mother, Apocrypha, etc..
It's their views on Salvation. It appears as an outsider, that my brothers in Christ do not seem to separate Justification (Salvation) from Sanctification. (I understand both have different views with Theosis, Medial vs Venial, etc.). It just seems to me that Jesus was very clear on Justification when speaking about it both directly, and indirectly; I.E. when preforming miracles it's almost always 'your faith has made you well.' It seems throughout both the Old and New Testament there are distinct difference between the two. I am not saying they are entirely separate, as sanctification does happen following your justification, however, I have never found a biblically satisfactory answer in the way I understand the position of both Orthodoxy and Catholicism. I am open to correction where I am wrong, but as it stands, these are my thoughts.
I am praying for a unified Church that is set up exactly as our Savior, Jesus Christ intended.
Have no doubt...the only true religion is Orthodoxy! And this is because it was not founded by people (as with sects), but by the Triune God Himself! The one true God!! Read history and you will see that when Christianity prevailed, all of Europe was Orthodox! In the seventh century (I think), Christianity split in the West, because the then Pope of Rome, adopted the filioque arrogantly and changed the doctrine of the church and became a heretic himself and all who followed him! This is how Roman Catholicism arose and later Protestantism, which are HERESIES!!!
Bless you, and I hope that I can help answer this satisfactorily as I am a convert from being a Baptist. The reason why we don't make a distinction is rooted in how we view the function of humanity. We are the body of Christ, we are the hands and feet of God to bring about his will on this earthly plain. That being said, we can use an analogy of us being like the tools of God. So, say you, the Christian, are like a hammer which is used by God. Is the hammer "justified" by simply being a hammer? Or is it justified by being used by the Carpenter? We don't make the distinction because while it is true that Sanctification follows Justification, they cannot be reasonably separated because they are inseparable parts of the same process of being and becoming the hands and feet of God on earth. That is to say, talk of Justification without Sanctification is meaningless - "faith without works is dead." In other words, justification is also an ongoing process just as much as Sanctification is. We are justified by choosing to be used as tools and servants for God's work and "choosing this day who you will serve" each and every day.
Hope this helps, God bless 🙏🏼
@@WillGaylord Thank you for taking the time to give me a thought out response. I understand this is an incredibly dense topic, and in some ways, I am asking the question in a western sense. I understand it can be very difficult to translate from a western question into a more Orthodox view of understanding/framing. I suppose the view you're described would fall into the different tenses used throughout scripture "have been saved... are being saved... shall be saved". I am going to pray and meditate on your response for a while and ask the Lord for understanding. I ask you pray for me brother. I seek only to serve our Lord God in any, and all ways He wills. I can not wait to be able to praise the Lord for all eternity!!
God Bless
@@kc_woodsman7504 Of course! And, if I may, our eternity of worshipping the Lord has already begun from the moment we enthroned Christ in our hearts 😉
As a cradle Orthodox, I have great respect and appreciation of the Biblical scholarship done mainly by Protestants over the past two hundred years.
The problem, sister in Christ, is that a lot of it leads to confusion, and ultimately, to atheism. However, that also motivated the True Church to raise more seminaries and build our scholarship up.
You are so honest. Protestantism, for all it's faults has helped the church with solid theology. Many Catholics don't know their bible. They rely on what they are told because they believe in an infallible magisterium. The orthodox church is so out of reach that one has to be in it to understand what it teaches. In my country, there is not a single orthodox church. Yet they keep demonising protestants who have largely and currently are radical about evangelism. I will never leave Protestantism because unlike Catholics or Orthodoxs, I believe I'm part of the One True church because scripture tells me so. Case closed. Church fathers and traditions are fine, but Sola scriptura, or prima scriptura
In my opinion I think private interpretation of scripture or "God put it on my heart" interpretation is not what Christ wants for His Church. These words again in my opinion have led to more and more division of the body of Christ and hence too many denominations to count. It just makes sense that Christ established One Church with authority to teach. And as scriptures says the Church is the pillar and ground of Truth. Unfortunately that means alot of Pastors may be in rebellion to God and teaching wrong doctrine.
Stand firm, then, brothers, and keep the traditions that we taught you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.
2 Thessalonians 2:15
I really love the background music at the end!
I think you're the first person to ever comment on it! Thanks!
Actually echar the Catholic Church has prohibited is the reading of a wrong Bible translation and also the personal interpretation of scripture.
Yes the discouragement was only due to causing confusion outside the 2,000 year teaching of the Church. The Protestants show how those fears came to fruition. First, by Luther REMOVING 7 books from the Bible! Secondly by the thousands of Churches and denominations all teaching different things from the same Bible with a huge confusion and disunity. Catholic and Orthodox theology meanwhile is almost identical except for a few theological issues but their roots are the same. They both are from the early Great Church. They are more similar than different. The Catholic Church also translated the Bible into the vernacular before the Protestants.
History would disagree with this. Roman Catholic Church did actually posses an accurate scripture, called the Vulgate in latin
@@pmcdermott4929 I believe the Church considers Scripture infallible in the original languages (which were not latin). The accuracy of the translation depends on the translation. I may be mistaken and am happy to be corrected on that.
Unfortunately, the translation the RCC was historically espousing during the time in question was Latin Vulgate which is commonly known to scholars to have more translation error and be less reliable...the RCC sets up a system of authority for herself but when she is wrong she is wrong and no amount of doubling down changes the truth.
In fact, the Vulgate is considered by many scholars to have significant errors and even Erasmus (a Roman Catholic) is recorded as admitting and finding errors in the Latin Vulgate when he was working on his own translation.
Very informative and educational.
Honestly props for sitting accross from people who often tell you you believe thr wrong thing... and still being kind & polite. Ive been going to a protestant church for the past 3 years ( was originally greek orthodox) but now questioning returning to Orthodoxy since i found your channel. I feel sad because i love reading and understanding the gospel, snd sad because i love protestant sermons, and sad because i might lose all my friends .. also hoping im nit deceived. But sfter your interview with Dr.Constantinou, it's difficult for me to unhear and unsee how orthodoxy was the founding Christian Church and this topic too... So much on my mind. I sm struggling a lot.
If your friends are really your friends they won't stop being your friends because you turn to Orthodoxy, especially if they see how it changes your life over time. It becomes slightly tricky, or can do, in certain ways, because you have embarked on a radically different pathway but I still have my Protestant friends. It's just not easy talking about certain things together any more.
Sent up a prayer for you in your journey, God bless
Good and true Christian friends shouldn’t abandon you for making this step. Some of them may worry about you or think it’s some kind of mistake but if they observe positive changes in you and you are able to emphasise that one big aspect of Orthodoxy is participation more and more in the nature of Jesus Christ, they should start to relax even if it remains a mystery to them. This is my experience anyway.
I could NEVER leave Eastern Orthodox Church, for something else.
Our ancestors spilled their blood for Orthodoxy, under 500 years of Ottoman Muslim occupation & judeo-commi dictatorship.
EASTERN ORTODOX CHURCH is the ORIGINAL CHURCH.
Come back home☦️
As my (Orthodox) priest once said, Sola Scriptura is a tradition of man.
I often hear Protestants talk about "man made rules" yet often time, they are very militant about Sola Scriptura (and the other Solas)
@@CherryDreamer96 Good point. Thanks
Sola scriptura has given me my foundation as a Protestant. It helped keep my feet on solid ground and not shifting sand. However, as an Orthodox Catechumen I now see the point they are making.
In another comment you stated that you are a proud protestant but now a orthodox catechumen?
Thanks for sharing!
@@wishyouthebest9222 I’m still Protestant until I convert over. I don’t despise my Protestant upbringing because it gave me a foundation. But I now know there is so much more out there that I didn’t know. But I won’t turn on my Protestant brothers. It upsets me when I see people bashing them.
@@Mark-yb1sp what convinced you to become orthodox?
@@wishyouthebest9222 Thanks for the question.
I’m convinced that Orthodoxy is not something a person seeks after out of the blue. It’s something that DRAWS YOU out of the blue.
I have been burned by Pentecostals and Charismatics and bored by the Protestants. In non denominational churches anything goes. It’s a constant emphasis on the gifts of the Spirit and a constant unbiblical abuse. 90% of these preachers don’t even have any credited Bible school and do not know any Greek or Hebrew. That’s a huge missing link! And with Protestantism it starts at the year 1500. There are 1500 years PRIOR to that which needs addressing!
In Orthodoxy I find a purpose for everything they do and a pedigree for WHY they do it. And I have never seen so much respect for the Lord, the alter, the Eucharist or the church fathers in ANY church ever. It’s amazing. And there are no threats either. Ie: if you don’t do such and such, your eternal destiny rides on it.
I want a factual Christianity. Not made up traditions that evolve with the current trends. I wasted a lot of time in silly churches that feed your emotions which in the long run gives you nothing. Life is too precious and my eternal salvation is too important to play church. I want to BE the church and I have found it in Orthodoxy. It is my privilege to share this with you. Thank you again for asking.
I was just at Meteora and in the pronao of many monasteries, the icon of the Second Coming has a bible on the alter table of judgment. How does that coincide with 2 sources of orthopraxy?(the Bible and Holy Tradition?)
Thanks for engaging in dialogue !
My pleasure!
@@GospelSimplicity
I guess, You will soon start a series of reading from *Maximos the Confessor* , together with Father Trenham ?
Eh ? ^^
Hi Austin, I think a dialogue between Fr. Josiah and Dr Gavin on sola scriptura would be so interesting.
@Dustin Neely Why?
@Dustin Neely Why?
As an Orthodox , the only disagreement I had with my Catholic brothers was Pope divinity.
Now with heretic Francis making it obvious even Catholics agree with that!
With hardcore kjb evangelicals i see no disagreement to the dogma, except that they don't get that Orthodoxy & Catholicism also preserved history
By "pope divinity" do you mean that the papacy is a divinely ordained institution, or are you implying Catholics believe the pope is divine?
@@GospelSimplicity The Church is a divinely ordained institution, you can read what saint nektarios had to say about having a Pope, he predicted correctly that one man can easily be misguided to change the dogma,
Traditional Catholics now see it too..
@@jamespong6588 but what's weird is no pope has changed dogma. They have had opinions. Right and wrong, but when it came to actual papal authority they have never added or changed anything. Even the really bad popes didn't change anything. They used their power inappropriately to get stuff by scuing what was taught but they never actually changed anything themselves. changed
@@GospelSimplicity They claim he represents Jesus Christ on earth. Jesus Christ is alive.
I agree that oral teaching from the apostles was authoritative, but I question if it could be passed down orally for 2000 years without corruption. Protestants don't argue that scripture contains everything that is true. We just just argue it is the only source of truth that is sure.
Well said
the formation of all of Scripture from the old to the new, was formed precisely on a foundation of oral tradition. The bible didn't fall from the sky bounded together. It took thousands of years for it to be gradually written and only when the Church had a council did the books that we considered Scripture today were labeled as such.
@@gregcoogan8270 That is half true. From the church's inception, the old testament was treated as authoritative scripture. A cursory glance through the new testament will confirm that. Perhaps even the apocrypha, but I have not done much research on that. And, the writings of the apostle Paul are referred to as scripture in Peter's epistles. From this it is fair to assume that the writings of the apostles, or writings approved by them, were understood to be scripture. Its true that an official canon was not established (and still hasn't been universally in the Orthodox Church) but it was understood that the teachings and writings of the apostles were authoritative. For me, a better term than sola scriptura is "sola stuff-we-can-confirm-uncontroversially-that-the apostles-taught...a." But "Sola Scriptura" does have a better ring to it.
@@zachdavenport8509 it's all true
@@gregcoogan8270 What is?
Great video and so True. Love it.
So glad!
Great vid!!!!
Thanks!
May god bless us all!
Amen
@@GospelSimplicity tt',s amazing to hear the explanations about the ortordoxy church!
Amen! He is among us! Have a nice day!
Awesome video!!
Glad you enjoyed it
Praying toward the east, And I set my face toward the Lord and entreated Him (faced Jerusalem) As did Daniel and Tolbit and others . OT Jewish practise. Sometimes when I pray I actually remember to face the Lord in this manner.
Thanks for sharing
OT prophets were also prophesying about Christ calling him Prince of the East and that the Host of the Lord is coming from the East.
So it is an early christian practice to face towards East when praying, Orthodox churches are even built that way, during liturgy everybody faces towards East.
Beautiful explanation.
Glad you enjoyed it
If I hit like it won't register. It doesn't happen on every site so I think it has to be youtube
I think UA-cam is tampering with the "like" button too! I was trying to like other videos yesterday and they didn't change colour..what's going on???
3:07 Its a miracle that the Protestant revisers and editors of their so-called scriptures didn't remove that verse.
The illustration he gave of folks deciding to relegate Paul's preaching and only treat the 2 letters as authoritative is really effective.
The only response I've seen to that is the assertion that at the time of the last Apostle's death, all apostolic teaching had been enscripturated. Which is an assertion derived from necessity, and not from evidence.
It is a good illustration. I’d say a better response than the one you outline (though perhaps not persuasive) is not that all apostolic teaching had been enscripturated at the their death, but Scripture is the only sure source, meaning we can’t know whether oral tradition is truly apostolic or not
What a sad situation if that is true (sola scriptural) and would speak a lot to the splintering of Christianity. But, I believe the Holy Spirit is in the Church and guides her and has not forsaken her.
@@GospelSimplicity You have a valid question as to how do we know which oral teaching is sacred ?
The answer is only oral teachings in the 1st 300 years of the Early Church is sacred teaching equivalent to the same standing as the bible. These oral teachings from the Early Church Fathers are from
1. The Apostles
2. The Apostles's disciples
3. The disciples disciples
Followers who ate, travelled, were personally taught by Jesus or disciples who know Jesus and the Apostles. These 300 years of oral teachings are exactly and perfect illustrated by Fr Josiah's answer. Remember John 21:25
Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written
Scriptures support oral teachings. Fr Josiah's example of the St Paul case is supported by John 21:25
Oral teachings after the Age of the Early Church is not sacred oral teachings. There is no more new divine revelation after this age. So no new dogmas.
@@GospelSimplicity , a sort of last source standing, I see.
Btw, I also comment as the ActApologist fella depending on whether I am at work or home.
Your stamina in producing such great videos, replying to comments, and having marvelous hair is miraculous.
@@GospelSimplicity Well, scripture tells us where we should go to find trustworthy information - read 1 Tim 3:14-15. Jesus founded a Church for this very reason so that His teachings would be handed down from generation to generation. We can test whether something is apostolic by looking at something that's being taught and looking back in time to see how the earliest Christians viewed the same questions. In fact, when you look at Church councils, this is the very process they follow. Often a question would arise about whether something the Church was teaching was correct (such as questions about particular beliefs of the faith prompted by various heresies). So the Church council would examine the question and look back at the earliest teachings of the Church and determine whether the Church had gone astray or whether it was teaching what had always been taught. On this general point, the Orthodox and Catholics agree but many of our Protestant brothers and sisters have discarded this notion.
You should bring on Father Spyridon from the UK. He has a UA-cam channel.
Also Father Peter Heers who is in Greece.
Father Peter Heers and I are in discussion currently about an interview. I'd have to look into Fr. Spyridion more
I'll love to see Fr. Peter Heers here!
This is so inspiring.
Thanks!
As I understand it, the original (Lutheran) definition of Sola Scriptura is that Scripture is the only infallible authority, but not the only authority. The church has authority, but not infallible authority. When errors or corruptions are found within the church, we do not trust the body that spawned the problem (i.e., the church) to fix itself. We hold it accountable to Scripture. Yes, the Scripture was given by the apostles (a.k.a. church leaders) and affirmed by church councils. We also trust the church’s judgment in this and many other things. But the church’s teachings can change, while Scripture has not.
You cannot go wrong with Sola Scriptura. There is absolutely no reason to believe that Apostle Paul taught anything contradicting what wrote in Letter form when He was speaking in Public.
Eastern Orthodox here.
My best friend is Protestant. We both respect each others religion. We believe that all religions should be respected.
Let’s spend more time praising God as opposed to arguing
Are all religions true? Or is it Jesus the one that is the truth?
When those who believe in Christ talk with each other civil, so much good can be done.
There is only one True Faith according to Scripture.
Protestantism certainly isn't it as they believe in many strange and foreign christs.
@@acekoala457what???
If this is the argument against sola scripture I’m embarrassed that this is convincing to anyone.
I guess the big deal is that we dont have the oral tradition. By the way, the gnostics were the ones saying they had some secret oral tradition and St Athanasius answer was: "Go back to scriptures".
I would like Josiah to tell us, of those three traditions he named, to tell us which Apostle orally instructed them, where they did it, when and what exactly was the instruction?
Question, do the protestants even bealive in sola scriptura today?
No, they pick and choose which verses they want to believe.
Sola scriptura without a living magisterium leads to each person creating their own tradition to follow. Even a comparatively simple document like the US constitution needs a magisterium for interpretation, the Supreme Court. The Holy Spirit makes no promises in scripture itself to guide the individual but Christ himself created the Church to be his own bride and Christ prayed asking God to make them one and for Peter to guide the sheep. This is the great purposes of the Church. It is a sad state of affairs that Sola Scriptura reduces the Church to a prayer and worship club instead of the Bride of Christ.
@@Lerian_V No ! They now believe in Solo Scriptures
Yes, very much so and proud of it. It keeps us from getting into a cult. If it’s not in the Bible, we don’t accept it.
@@Mark-yb1sp I wonder if you read carefully what I wrote above.
Secondly I like to share with you John 21 :25
And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written
And 2 Thessolonians 2:15
So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed on to you,whether by word of mouth or by letter
Dude you better be careful.. having these kinds of guests- Orthodox/Catholic- with their strong arguments may cure you of your Protestant beliefs surprisingly fast lol!
I am interested to see if a conversion is in your future. I have a feeling it very well may be unfolding publicly through your videos! Praying for you!😊
Haha, thanks. I appreciate your prayers!
Yes the priest is suggesting the oral tradition is just as good as the written down version. Why then do we have a collection of so many books in the Bible? God gave the stone tablets to Moses and told the Apostle John to write down what he heard and saw. Writing down things seem to be important to God, for peoples won sake.
@Vine 101 like fasting? Physical Presence in the Gifts? Pick and choose is not Orthodox!
Love!
🤣🤣🤣
Where can I find more information about the Saint Paul icon roster?
With all due respect, I have a couple issues.
So how are we to distinguish what the infallible oral tradition and teachings of the apostles are if they are not written down? Are we to just trust what the church says?
Yes it is true that the church at Thessalonica had only the two letters of Paul in print, but the majority of what would have been taught orally would be that which coincided with the Gospels, so the possibility of there being important, infallible doctrines that are not in what we now call the Bible is unlikely.
Is doing the sign of the cross and praying to the east vital doctrine?
Baptism by emersion is something that can be easily gleaned from the Scriptures.
The pick and choose methods so oftentimes used by other various "Christian " churches these days has no appreciation of Sola Scriptura.
"I did it my way" is much more popular for churches in the World of today.
Stand firm, then, brothers, and keep the traditions that we taught you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.
2 Thessalonians 2:15
We have to read the scriptures as Almighty God speaking to us personally, not deviating it from left or right.
Amen
That's impossible due to our human fallible minds. Some of us can't even follow a standard recipe to make a Thanksgiving pie correctly.
@@Nepthu no it’s not impossible , just read it and have faith in the book that’s it God speaking to you.
@@nicl8749 so the Book spoke to you but not to Catholics or Orthodox? Well you must be a very holy Calvinist😁
@@eleftheriosmas no I am not a holy Calvinist, what I mean as an example is, the bible says God created the whole universe in six days and rested on the seventh. But other Christians read the bible and say the universe came from a Big Bang, what I am saying is we have to read the bible as it is, that’s why there are so many denominations, they don’t understand the power of God, and don’t believe that God could and how God could create everything in six days, but the bible says that he did.
Is there any way that Pastor Gavin Ortlund can meet with this Orthodox priest? 🙏🏼🙏🏼❤️ I don’t see an email for Pastor Ortlund but I believe you moderated his baptism videos. Is there anyway to coordinate that? Sorry to bother you in the comments but I am not sure what other way to do it.
If there's a singular lens in which scripture should be interpreted, aka oral tradition, and elevated to the level of scripture to combat heresy then why has it not been compiled and written for all Christian's to have access to? It's been thousands of years. Now's the time. Where is it?
Hello
What do we measure tradition against?
You mention when they didn’t want scripture to be read by everyone, you said it’s right to criticize that
Ok so how would we have know that during that time?
Why wouldn’t the argument that the church teaches the truth work there?
I think the problem is putting “tradition” on the same level as scripture
What seem to do is say they can trace their authority back to Peter, and since they think they are a succession of that authority, then what is taught from that seat of authority is truth
The problem is that’s the same thing the Pharisees did
They sat on the seat of Moses
They were supposed to be successors of Moses so their tradition would be true
But what did Jesus say about their tradition??
And why did he say it was wrong and how did he conclude it?
Compared it to scripture
If you teach tradition on the same authority level as scripture and it’s not founded in scripture and contradicts it then it’s wrong
So saying “we are successors of Peter” doesn’t make your tradition true, let alone the same level as scripture
Because it’s the same thing the Pharisees did
“We are successors of Moses therefore our tradition is true and authoritative”
Now insert Peter for Moses and that’s basically the argument
I don’t think it works
Exactly right but you'll never see Cath or Orth address this point. Sola Scriptura isn't, to my understanding, that we don't interpret, we don't teach, we don't have any liturgy, or traditions, it's that these things must be in scripture for them to be approved. They seem to treat it like the truth only comes through scripture.
I'm not sold, but I do appreciate the reasoning and explanation. Thank you both.
Well said
"Stand firm, then, brothers, and keep the traditions that we taught you, whether by word of mouth or by letter."
2 Thessalonians 2:15
@@beautifulspirit7420 And what did Paul teach Orally?
The same thing he wrote about in His other epistles
@@kilemyers784 paul in scripture references other writings to othee churches...so clearly not all his teachings are in scripture.
@@joseonwalking8666 Yes they are, anything he taught verbally to thessalonia he taught in previous epistles
One thing I notices is that Fr. Josiah uses the NIV translation to quote 2 Thessalonians 2:15 lol, this is also one of the verses that was changed from its original meaning from traditions to teachings. This change you find In many of the modern translation to discount the Traditions of the Church as mere traditions of men rather than the life of the Holy Spirit in the Church. Tradition is a dirty word to protestants.
He talks a bit more about the NIV in the full interview. Needless to say, he's not a fan
There are greek versions, if you want to consult.
Do we have what Paul said to the Thessalonians beyond the 2 letters? How do we know the Apostles spoken words? Confused
Have you graduated Moody yet? I was in Chicago, and wish I visited there.
I have not. I’m a junior
My follow-up question would be how do we know what Paul taught orally at the Thessalonian Church if it isn’t written down? Written tradition is the only form of recording that existed back then. If they had the technology to make audio recordings of his teaching, that would be great, but they didn’t.
I'm not yet so far in my knowledge. But in this case, I assume that the Church already had a tradition created by the apostles. And that it wasn't necessary to been written down, because it was something, a practice, that was known because everyone was a witness of it and everyone knew about. In other words, it was something obvious and people knew about it and that it was a Apostolic teaching that belonged to the Tradition of the Church, installed by the apostles. The Church adopted it and it was a natural thing to do... Excuse my English, it isn't even my 3rd language, so I find it a little difficult to express myself. But to finish it, the Church kept the Tradition and is a keeper and a guardian of it, till this day. And how do we know it is correct and from God and His Apostles? I think there are enough scholars who can substantiate it by either theology and maybe evidence, but at the end of the day, it all comes down to faith.
Tradition is the whole system of faith and spritual guiding that is reflected in the worship and spiritual life of the members of the Church. Back at this time the members of the Church lived according to the Tradition and this has been kept as an ethos-morale till nowadays in the Orthodox Church it is what we call Orthodox ethos.. Moreover the Tradition has its proof on the sanctity of the Saints... The saints of the Orthodox Church are the living clue of Truth and effectiveness of the Orthodox spiritual guidance.
Many of these oral traditions Fr. Josiah speaks of were eventually written down in documents like the Didache and in the writings of the early Church Fathers like Basil the Great.
The Apostolic Tradition is simply the life of the Holy Spirit lived in the Church, the Body of Christ, throughout the ages. It is the LIVING faith that has been handed down from one generation to the next through her corporate worship, hymnography, prayers, spirituality, etc.
As it is written in Deuteronomy 6:6-7, “And these words which I command you today shall be in your heart. YOU SHALL TEACH THEM DILIGENTLY TO YOUR CHILDREN...”
apostolic tradition was never lost. we aren’t archaeologists trying to rediscover lost tradition with only scripture to go by. that’s what protestants absolutely do not get.
the Apostles taught their own disciples every day…and those people became apostles who taught others every day.. and as such we have Apostolic Succession in a church that has been active EVERY DAY since Christ ascended into Heaven. Jesus did not leave behind a bible- he left us a church which is still here.
superb analysis
Glad you enjoyed it
Scripture is the only infallible authority-- not the only authority.
Sola Scriptura merely means that there is ultimately no infallible human council or church body, but rather that all can err, and must be corrected by the Scriptures themselves. Paul himself rebuked Peter, for example, on his error regarding fellowship with Gentile believers.
Fr. Josiah Trenham is one of the coolest priests ever. He is straight up politically incorrect, bona fide red pilled traditional with deep knowledge and wisdom. Lika a humble Wolverine.
Haha, this was such a creative way of putting it
I'm a catholic and I love our orthodox brothers and sisters, praying for unity. God bless our protestant brothers and sisters as well, we love you all.
Great Video ☦️
What is the last apostolic tradition to be recognized by the Orthodox Church? Does the divinity of the church fathers continue to this day or was in just in the early age of the church? Great video
Im just glad that my redemption doesn't rely on my own works
And that even my faith and repentance is a gracious gift from God. Sola Scriptura
Sola Fide - Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy - written by Stephen Andrew Damick
The doctrine of sola fide teaches that justification comes by faith alone. In classical Protestant doctrine, justification is being “declared righteous” by God, receiving “imputed” righteousness. The doctrine of imputed righteousness is in contrast with the Roman Catholic teaching of infused righteousness (that God puts righteousness into the believer and it becomes part of him through merit received in the spiritual life).
To have righteousness imputed is to be regarded or seen as righteous by God because He has “put on” (rather than “put into”) or clothed the believer with Christ’s righteousness; yet there is no sense in which the believer is actually righteous in himself. Imputation is a change in legal status, but not in personal holiness, not even a change effected by grace. In this, the doctrine directly descends from late medieval western theology based in a juridical view of sin with its emphasis on legal status (a view which has been de-emphasized in more recent Roman Catholic theology).
Especially in Luther, faith alone is specifically contrasted with good works. For him, good works have nothing to do with salvation other than being a sign or result of true faith. True faith will always lead to two things: justification and good works. Luther described sola fide as being the doctrine by which the church stands or collapses.
Sola fide finds its clearest formulations in both the Augsburg Confession and the Westminster Confession of Faith, which are authoritative doctrinal statements among Lutheran and Presbyterian Christians, respectively:
‘Our churches by common consent . . . teach that men cannot be justified before God by their own strength, merits, or works, but are freely justified for Christ’s sake, through faith, when they believe that they are received into favor, and that their sins are forgiven for Christ’s sake, who, by His death, has made satisfaction for our sins. This faith God imputes for righteousness in His sight.’ (Augsburg Confession, 1530)
‘Those whom God effectually calls, He also freely justifies; not by infusing righteousness into them, but by pardoning their sins, and by accounting and accepting their persons as righteous; not for any thing wrought in them, or done by them, but for Christ’s sake alone; nor by imputing faith itself, the act of believing, or any other evangelical obedience to them, as their righteousness; but by imputing the obedience and satisfaction of Christ unto them, they receiving and resting on Him and His righteousness by faith; which faith they have not of themselves, it is the gift of God.’ (Westminster Confession of Faith, 1647)
Sola fide was formulated primarily in response to the Roman Catholic insistence on good works (and the whole system of merit, satisfaction, purgatory, and indulgences), which was interpreted by Luther as trying to earn one’s way to heaven. (That is not what Roman Catholicism officially taught, but it was a popular understanding of Catholic doctrine in the sixteenth century and was likely preached by those who sold indulgences.) From this comes the almost universal Protestant tradition about Roman Catholicism, that it teaches “works righteousness,” that Catholics believe that they “earn” salvation. The Reformers also viewed monasticism in this way, that it is an attempt to earn salvation. We should especially note here, however, that the language of “satisfaction” is retained from Roman Catholicism, continuing its legal emphasis in soteriology.
Luther was so insistent on this formulation of salvation coming by faith and not works that, when he was translating Romans 3:28 into German, he added the German word allein (“alone”), so that the verse would read: “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith alone apart from the deeds of the law.” But the word alone is not present in the Greek text nor even suggested by the context.
Despite this opposition set up between faith and good works, Luther nevertheless engaged in an extended controversy against the Antinomians, who taught that morality was entirely irrelevant to Christian life. He did not see good works as irrelevant, but rather as the result of faith.
Luther was also so vexed by the apparent opposition to his sola fide doctrine in the Epistle of James that he questioned its apostolic authorship because it is “flatly against St. Paul and all the rest of Scripture, [since] it ascribes righteousness to works, and says that Abraham was justified by his works” (Preface to the Epistles of St. James and St. Jude). And so Luther concludes that, compared to other New Testament works, “St. James’ Epistle is really an epistle of straw . . . for it has nothing of the nature of the gospel about it” (Luther’s Works, 35:362). While Luther initially wanted to omit James from his canon, he eventually chose to leave the epistle in place.
He questioned the authority not only of James, but also of Jude, Hebrews, and Revelation-books which had also been questioned much earlier in church history but ultimately accepted by the Church. (In some Lutheran denominations, when a candidate for ordination signs the Oath of Subscription, he can actually opt out of accepting the canonicity of those books.) Ironically, the only place “faith alone” (or sometimes “faith only”) appears as a phrase in the New Testament is in James 2:24: “You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.” James also says, in 2:17: “Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.” )
In some sectors of Protestantism since the Second Great Awakening in the nineteenth century, sola fide came to be understood as meaning simple belief or agreement with certain doctrinal propositions, such as that salvation depends not on faithfulness but on a one-time assent, usually as part of a conversion experience.
Orthodoxy teaches with the Scripture that it is by grace through faith that we are saved, and not of works (Eph. 2:8-9). Where Orthodoxy differs from the doctrine of sola fide is in its understanding of faith, works, and justification. Faith for the Orthodox Christian includes good works, not because they earn salvation, but because they are a form of cooperation with divine grace, which does the work of transformation. Justification for the Orthodox is being made actually righteous, not simply declared so (“imputed”), and is effected by baptism. This is possible because of the presence of God in a person. Furthermore, Orthodoxy has a much broader view of justification (in Greek, dikaisyne), more in line with the use of Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount (Matt. 5-7), rather than the narrower, juridical notion advanced since the sixteenth century in Roman and Protestant theology.
Based on his Law/Gospel dialectic, Luther misunderstands “good works” in the Scripture as being identical to “the works of the law,” that is, the Mosaic Law of the Jews. Yet while St. Paul preaches against the efficacy of the Jewish law for salvation, he nowhere preaches against good works themselves nor opposes them to faith. “The works of the Law” that do not help us are Jewish tradition, but the good “works” without which faith is “dead” (James 2:17-26) constitute the righteous life of the believer.
Even then, these good works do not by themselves accomplish anything. It is God’s grace that makes the transformation happen. Good works are just part of opening the door to that transformation. It is our life of faith and good works that is our cooperation with divine grace, the free gift of God. The Orthodox believe in synergy, working together with God for our salvation (1 Cor. 3:9, 2 Cor. 6:1), a concept not entirely absent but misunderstood and effectively ignored in most Protestant theology.
Sola Gratia - Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy - written by Stephen Andrew Damick
The teaching of sola gratia is that it is only God’s grace that accomplishes salvation. No act of man contributes to salvation in any way. This doctrine is closely associated with sola fide, as faith is what activates saving grace. Sola gratia believers usually state their doctrine in terms opposed to Pelagianism (the doctrine that man may achieve salvation without divine help, because he is not subject to original/ancestral sin, i.e., his will remains unimpaired by the Fall). Anyone suggesting that man has any substantial role in his salvation is usually accused of being either Pelagian or semi-Pelagian.
The most extreme form of this doctrine is held by classical Predestinarianism (often associated with Calvinism, but with a prior history among Catholic Dominicans), which holds that man has absolutely no role in his salvation, not even assent. That is, God saves you whether you want it or not. He also damns you whether you want it or not. This view is called monergism (“one actor,” i.e., God). These two actions together are called double predestination-both the saved and the damned are predestined to their fates. In this case, both faith and grace are gifts from God and do not involve man’s will in any way. Grace is often termed “irresistible.” Most sola gratia believers are not this extreme, however; they believe that man must at least assent to salvation at some point, even if only once. Some Reformed theologians nuance this view with what is called “compatibilism,” allowing room in God’s irresistible decrees for man’s true assent-an assent he is incapable of giving unless God wills it. (Yes, it does seem like a contradiction.)
Orthodox can agree with sola gratia if it is understood to mean that it is God’s grace that does the transforming work of salvation. However, Orthodoxy believes in synergy, that God and man are co-workers (1 Cor. 3:9; 2 Cor. 6:1), that man must “work out [his] own salvation with fear and trembling” (Phil. 2:12). The episode of the Annunciation actually illustrates quite well the Orthodox view-namely, that God did not impose His will on the Virgin Mary but desired her consent, which she gave in the fiat mihi (“Let it be unto me”).
One of the principal problems with sola gratia is that grace is understood as something other than God Himself. In Reformation theology, grace is “unmerited favor,” an attitude in God, often contrasted with His wrath. For Orthodoxy, grace is uncreated-that is, grace is God, His actual presence and activity-His energies. But if grace is merely “favor,” then union with God (theosis) is precluded. The distance from God sometimes found in Roman Catholic theology is retained in Protestantism.
Amen!! 🙏🏼🙏🏼
No one teaches that redemption is in our own power. All church denominations teach that we are saved by grace through faith, not by works, but UNTO good works.
I’m Protestant and I can even acknowledge that Catholics and Orthodox do not teach that you can earn salvation by your own good works.
@@samueljennings4809 Hi Samuel! I am also protestant and married to a Greek Orthodox. I have visited monasteries and spoken to a nun and my husband. They do not believe that they are saved by Grace alone. The nun specifically told me that she didn't know if she was saved. That she wouldn't know until she dies what happens. My husband believes the same thing. He says that it all depends on what he does in life. I believe we are saved by Grace and our faith is the fruit of our salvation showing others that we are believers. So, I can only talk from experience what I have heard from those in the Orthodox church.
The major problem with denying Sola Scriptura is actually proving that any tradition outside of scripture is legitimate and has not been adulterated. Further, by Trenham's own citation of Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:15 that the apostolic tradition and the scripture were of equal authoritative weight. Both being inspired there should be no deviation or contradiction between "tradition" and scripture (1 Corinthians 14:33). Yet, why is it that we see so many traditions in the Orthodox and Catholic traditions that are not merely extra-scriptural but rather contradict the exact pattern of scripture. To illustrate this in a simple example - The Orthodox church allows for hieromonk bishops and unmarried bishops, this is unscriptural via Paul's clear statements in 1 Timothy 3:1 and Titus 1:6. Trenham's words sound fine, but in practice the rejection of Sola Scriptura just leads to people doing whatever their "tradition" is and slapping the label apostolic on it. That is not biblical nor Christ-like. Christ Himself rejected the traditions of man as authoritative, so should we (Matthew 15:1-9).
YOU: Further, by Trenham's own citation of Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:15 that the apostolic tradition and the scripture were of equal authoritative weight
*ME: The issue is the translation of the Greek word "paradosis" that Paul used in 2Thes **2:15**. It simply means "transmission, precepts" -- and WITHIN CONTEXT of all of 2Thes 2, Paul is talking about the Thessies standing fast in the "precepts of the GOSPEL that Paul transmitted to them either orally or by letter" so that they will not be DECEIVED like others will.* 2Thes 2:15 is not talking about added traditions no found in Scripture -- its talking about the GOSPEL of Jesus Christ that Paul PREACHED.
Was everything that Paul said outside of scripture true? Don’t you think what is in scripture today is what God wants us to know as far as salvation concerns?
My suggestion on the by writing or word of mouth would be that the other things Paul mentioned by word of mouth were likely in line with that of the Gospels. He was saying simply these things I have shared with you.
Do protestants study patristics? If yes, do they merely dismiss them as atavistic and irrelevant and move on or what do they do with it?
Great question! The short answer is yes, Protestants study Patristics. The longer answer is, I have a video with a Protestant who has a PhD in historical theology coming out soon where we talk about this in more depth. You might enjoy it!
5:28
Incorrect.
And part of the evidence is in the very act of being able to say that it's "incorrect".
The essence of Sola Scriptura is a declaration of recognized authority. When I make that declaration, I am saying I consider to be under the authority of the scriptures, from Genesis to Revelation. If we are debating doctrine, you can hold me to account under that authority. Now, if you are debating doctrine with another that also accepts church tradition as authoritative, you can hold them to account on that shared standard.
The example gave of the apostles is still true today. The "Sola Scriptura" in their time was the Torah and the prophets. They debated the relevance of circumcision and they all used the existing scripture to defend their stance. If I was to explain Jesus to an orthodox Jew to this day, I would be still only holding them to account to the Old Testament - I won't force my acceptance of the New Testament on them. Likewise, I do not recognize the authority of any modern priest, nor would I consider what a pastor from my denomination says to hold authority over another who does not recognize that authority (even within the congregation)... I may just offer it as another interesting opinion to share.
Also, I would caution against accepting tradition without consulting the scriptures. In Matthew 15:9, Jesus makes it very clear that this is an issue to be careful of.
That……..that was eye opening.
How can the serpent deceive Eve, if Eve always RESTS(sabbath) on God's word(scripture)??????
Well even MANY Protestants who claim Sola Scriptura don’t even hold to that when they make up all sorts of things by twisting scripture. If you twist it or add to it, it isn’t scripture.
Fair enough
And thats the problem of not being sola scriptura. People will say a bunch of non biblical thing.
The man in the video of course dont speak about when the disciples spoke to the jews and the jews were verifying in the scriptures to see if the disciples were saying the truth
Even Jesus used the scriptures to counter argument the pharisees.
@@JonathanVachon777 You are correct that Jesus and the disciples referred to their Scriptures. It would be strange not to. But Jesus also said to His audience; "You've heard them say, but I say to you..." on many occasions, not referring to Scriptures, but speaking about oral traditions/teachings and He Himself did it as well. All teachings of our Lord are oral teachings, considering He didn't write any book Himself.
all the specific protestant doctrines are ABSENT from Scripture
@@JonathanVachon777 - you are confusing everything - what you are saying is exactly the orthodox-catholic positiom, not the protestant one - protestants define sola spripture by stating that access to the truth of Scripture is NOT dependant on the authority of someone pointing to what is really taught there, as saint Paul was doing
How do you think churches get into error? When they get away from the teaching of the word of God.
True
When they stop reading and studying Holy Fathers and Great Saints of the Church. Like Catholic did. They read their own saints ( like St Francis of Assisi ) and there are lot's of heresies in these teachings. They contradict teachings of Holy Fathers of early Church. The results are very sad. It's like broken compass on the ship. Such churches go wrong direction and lead people away from salvation.
Stand firm, then, brothers, and keep the traditions that we taught you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.
2 Thessalonians 2:15
Like the RCC at one time, E Orthodoxy strongly discouraged personal Bible reading via the Synod of Jerusalem that condemned Orthodox Patriarch Cyril Lucaris. Lucaris trusted in Jesus alone for his forgiveness rather than faith plus his personal effort (as others taught). He gloried in the absolute sufficiency of Jesus for our forgiveness as the sufficient Scriptures teach, and he was condemned. Please read the statements from the Synod of Jerusalem itself. Thank you.
What happens when there is heresy taught along with the oral tradition? Where does one go to check the validity of a tradition being taught? It's not like we can prove every tradition that was brought down through the ages was without error.
The book that really helped me understand this concept was "Know the Faith" by Michael Shanbour. Once that fell, and the historicity was clear, there was no turning back. After a 10 year long journey, I'm now a catechumen in the Orthodox Western Rite :)
My issue with "tradition" is how do we tell what is actually from the apostles? One of the church fathers (I can't remember which) said it was apostolic tradition that Jesus lived to be middle-aged. Nobody accepts that tradition now. Many things are claimed to be tradition that really didn't exist until much later.
Your referring to Irenaeus book Against Heresy. In Chapter 2 of said book he speaks of Christ reaching the age of a master which he explains is 30
Years old. Due to some translation errors this passage is difficult to understand in schaff’s translation. James White has done a video or two on this and has erroneously misled more than a few of his followers
@@nestoriancalvin4071 I didn't hear it from Dr. White, though your argument is new to me. The other defense of it that I've heard is that Irenaeus is quite clear about the later age, but just made an incorrect assumption about the actual tradition.
@@inthesprawl you could always read book 2 chapter 22 paragraph 4 for yourself…plenty of pdf open source on the interwebs
@@nestoriancalvin4071 The translation on NewAdvent shows the ~50 age pretty clearly.
@@inthesprawl “Being thirty years old when He came to be baptized, and then possessing the full age of a Master”
Wait, if you pray to the east, presumably you would be trying to pray toward Jerusalem... if you are east of Jerusalem would it not be better to pray toward the west? Or if you are south of Jerusalem to pray toward the north and so forth? Ah, but if St. so and so says it in some obscure reference and it's what we want to hear it must be true, right?
1. Sola Scriptura most definitely does NOT say there are no other authorities besides Scripture. 2. If we are to obey the oral traditions of the Apostles, go ahead and produce them. I cannot obey words that do not exist. 3. St. Basil is merely listing off specifics about rituals. Not exactly theological additions to Scripture.