The Avengers' Lowest Point - Comic Tropes (Episode 97)
Вставка
- Опубліковано 21 кві 2018
- Photos of George Perez and Bob Layton are © Luigi Novi.
There have been a lot of highs with The Avengers comics. There have also been a few lows. In my opinion, Avengers #200 represents their lowest. It's a story where Ms. Marvel gives birth within days and falls in love with her son. Oh, and her son used a machine to hypnotize her into loving him in the first place. It's so bad.
This episode breaks down not just the issue where this happens but what the original plan was and why it got scrapped at the last minute. It tries to examine who is responsible for this awful issue that many people were upset with for a long time.
Carol Strickland's essay on the issue: carolastrickland.com/comics/ms...
Patreon: / comictropes - Розваги
There was a fix that was just sitting there waiting to be used: if Marcus could use a machine to make Carol love him, he could theoretically have built a machine to make the Avengers trust him. That might explain their out-of-character behavior. HOWEVER, I'm also glad that Claremont DIDN'T do that, because the root of the problem wasn't that Cap et al were acting poorly; the problem was that the WRITERS were so damn dismissive of what they were doing to Carol. So rather than exonerate the Avengers, Claremont ultimately called the writers on the carpet via the Avengers. Good call.
That doesn't fix the rape.
Stationary Wanderer but it does fix the context than giving the meta reason that writer not caring or thinking it through
kingbeauregard and they owned up to it they realized the made a mistake and Carol even tho didn’t forgive them told them there’s no point in getting mad and hoped what happened to her was a wake up call
Or incest but the comic is top to bottom broken. 0/10.
Yeah, the writers don't even remember why they made issue 200.
The best thing about this issue is the follow up in Avengers annual 10. Setting aside the stellar artwork by Michael Golden, setting aside the introduction of Rogue, and her theft of Ms. Marvel’s powers, the best thing about annual 10 was Ms. Marvel going OFF on the rest of the avengers, for just letting her go off onto the sunset with Marcus
I agree. Avengers Annual 10 is a good issue and I felt I had to mention it to balance out how negative I was being.
@@ComicTropes
Given in Issue 201 both Wonder Man and Iron Man were expressing regret and even said Ms Marvel belonged with the Avengers, hinting that they were wiling to go to Limbo to get her back until Thor chimes in with how Ms Marvel made a noble decision (which makes the preceding issue all the worse if Thor is calling what was done to Carol as noble) one has to wonder did Marcus' plan didn't involve brainwashing the entire team and that's why they acted the way they did (still Jim Shooter gets all credit for this train wreck because he was the big boss at the time and knew full well what was going on, and probably only allowed it to go through because he was about to be fired and was also unpopular with the staff so decided to take as many of them down with him as possible)
@@@snakes3425 - Shooter actually wasn't fired until about five or six years later, when the New Universe began to tank. He's also responsible, at least indirectly, for making Hank Pym next to unusable for decades. The loathsome scene where he punched Jan was supposed to be him flailing about blindly in a rage, and her getting too close. They were still getting divorced after this, but it has marked the character forever since then, aided by the Ultimates' version's Super-Flanderization of a hero's lowest slimiest moment. Apparently, the artist for that issue either misread Shooter's notes or changed it on his own.
@@ComicTropes Avengers Annual 10 was a great surprise, a book with a mediocre cover but glorious Michael Golden art inside.
The Scarlet Witch was the badass of Avengers Annual 10.
Yeah, let's NOT have this story happen in the movies, please.
I actually liked Wonder Man's costume because it wasn't spandex with a captial letter on his chest just in case someone forgot who he is. I can always get behind a different costume.
I like that look too.
Same here, I actually enjoyed the jacket and shades look!
Yeah wonder man was bad ass
I feel like superhero teams look their best when everyones’ costume looks radically different, to show how they all weren’t made by the same person. This is one of the few good things about the Justice League movie, and something I dislike about the MCU.
I was fifteen when that issue came out and even then I was like, "Jesus christ...WHAT THE HELL DID I JUST READ???"
The infamous rape of Ms. Marvel issue. On the bright side with out this horrible story, Rogue probably wouldn't have been created.
TheVetoSkreeemer as a fan of Rogue, I found that DEPRESSING.
DeadlyAlienInvader When you see how Rogue slowly progressed from an evil mutant , to an insecure X men, to an experienced and valued member of the team I don't.
Rogue was set to appear in the final issue of Ms. Marvel's title, but the series got cancelled before it could happen and the story was never published (it did finally get printed in an issue of one of Marvel's anthology titles in the 1990s)
Funny how Rouge grew to be a well respected character while Ms. Marvel had never fully recovered from this whole ordeal.
Rape is hilarious
I felt really bad for Ms. Marvel in this story, and I didn't even care for the character. She was essentially mind-raped and her body was used as an incubator -- and the Avengers did absolutely nothing about it. Counselor Troi fared a little better with her "mystical pregnancy" in Star Trek: TNG. At least it didn't seem to traumatize her too much.
Jimmy Wonder Boy Headrick to play devils advocate for The Avengers though. I love this story because it shows the duality of humanity.
We humans can be phenomenal when we stay in our lane and focus on doing what we do well. But outside of that safe haven at times we can falter and show our feet 🦶 of clay.
The Avengers May be able to save the world from alien invasions, natural disasters or supervillain schemes. But The Avengers are not Relationship Counselors or Crisis Counselors.
Plus Carol Danvers is pretty mighty herself isn’t she? And given how much conviction she showed. It’s not like they could just grab her by the hand like a child and tell her to go to her room and stay away from that grown man!
I know from real world experience how realistic The Avengers behavior is in this story in some ways.
One of my aunts once introduced us to her new fiancé and we all had misgivings about this guy.
But she seemed so happy with him that none of us felt right about stealing her sunshine with our concerns about this guy. So we remained silent. They got married. He got physically abusive. They got divorced.
And afterwards we all told her that we weren’t all that surprised that their relationship turned out as it bad as it did. But we just didn’t know how to approach her about our misgivings about this guy.
And it’s not because we were cowards. It’s because sometimes even when your instincts are proven to have been right. At the time you weren’t 100% sure that they were.
We doubt ourselves. We wonder if we’re being prejudiced snobs. And not giving someone new in our lives the benefit of the doubt. So mistakes happen. That can become regrets if you let them...
The guy who wrote this thing apparently likes to screw women over in his other books.
@@endershepard7117nah not really, I mean if that's the case then they should have had a panel where the avengers are discussing their doubts about marcus
I could never understand why they didn't just 'discover' later on that Marcus had mesmerized the Avengers as well. They've used lamer excuses for lesser screw-ups.
I had to add on this new thought: So they basically ruined the anniversary issue of a flagship title because of a What If?
Consider the readership for the best selling What If? of all time, and place that against a major milestone issue for the Avengers. A few fans might have been ticked, but consider: What If V1-1 had Spidey joining the FF - which he has since done. Issue 2 - Hulk with Banner's mind. Check. Issue 3 ended up with Iron Avengers - at least a few times by now. Issue 4 occurred in canon. Issue 6 - FF with other powers. Issue 7 - Other Spider-bite recipients. 8 - 1950's Avengers. 10 - Jane Foster as Thor. 12 - Rick Jones becomes the Hulk. The list goes on. Spidey-Clone survives. Fascist Cap.
Yet fans will always read the canon books over any AU's. Change not needed, any at all.
Yuuuuuup
That discovery could have come at the next issue too. Ms. Marvel disappears with this guy and the spell is broken and they’re all standing there like wtf did we just agree to.
Or even a handwave of it havin' been more of a subtle thing thatit was there to a lesser degree and by the time it wore out they didn't think much of it likely 'cos too busy otherwise.
It wouldn't have negated the guy raping his mother story, however.
"The Machine was designed to stop the temporal anomalies."
"Well... you could've just said that."
I never understood why they went to such bizzare lengths to give Ms. Marvel an exit story. Don't get me wrong, this an utter black mark for Marvel and comic books in general. The Avengers having no problem with her just skipping off with a essentially a stranger is not to believed. Shameful day. Just strange they went such a convoluted way to write her out.
I really hate magical baby stories; they never go well.
INFERNO
If Teen Titans is the result of this mess, I'm glad it exists. Years of an incredible run for the Titans in exchange for one bad Avengers comic is totally worth it.
Ultra Nerd The silver lining.
i would add that it also led to FIVE wonderful years of WONDER WOMAN! Working as artist, Co Plotter and WRITER ,George Perez' tenure on that series is STILL talked about today among Diana's fans who read it!
or the cost of Carol Danvers(ms.marvel/captain marvel) being treated poorly in almost all major marvel events
There is no reason to believe that Perez left Marvel because of this nor is there any reason to think that Perez had no hand in this as a writer. Pretty much all Marvel comics at this time used the Marvel Method but Perez was not normally credited as writer.
This just seems to be a bit of fan worship where Comics Tropes decides to give Perez a pass for no particular reason!
The reality is that Perez probably had a hand in this. Perez was already drawing this story when Editorial informed them that they couldn't use the original plot. Most likely they all got together and tried to brainstorm a new story that could still make use of the artwork that had already been done.
@@sirperybLakeney You are just guessing at stuff with no real facts to go on. At least the idea that Perez leaves after this nonsense makes some sense. You are guessing about a brainstorming session that we have no reason to believe happened.
I can't wait to see this story in her new movie.
Don't count on it. LOL
Ir would have been much better than what they did.
Ha! That's laugh. The chances were gonna see THIS is as slime, as seeing her as an actual character then a Mary Sue.
Latino Sci-Fi Geek No it wouldn’t.
No, I don't think so.
Brie Larson would rather deal with her future children (on or off-screen) having totalled an expensive car and/or being arrested than this bottom-of-the-barrel slime (I'm not sugar coating it, this storyline was horrible on so many levels).
It's worth noting that Spiderwoman probably appeared in the Avengers Annual because Chris was writing her title as well.
A great supplement to Linkara’s review of Avengers #200
Charlie sheen called, he wants his shirts back 😎
So glad I found this channel. You do a truly terrific job here. Your love of comics, as well as your knowledge of them, shines through in each episode. Thanks for the great work!
Thank you so much.
Y'all can gripe about the lousy story, ... But I got a $3000.00 Shopping Spree at TOYS-R-US off that issue!! (Not going to see that happen again, after this year's retail economy changes.)
James David Settle Congrats.
Wow, $3,000 in 1979/80. What's the inflation rate on that?
That's a lot of Star Wars and Battlestar Galactica toys! (Trying to remember what else was out at that point).
What did you buy?
@@paulattardo3024 that's about it. Star wars would have gobbled it all up
A bad comic that had a good idea that had added unnecessary bad taste.
But it's a lesson learned for editors to pay attention.
If so, then why do we have Hydra Cap?
OMG. Thank you! I have had the Annual issue since it came out and I remember buying it because my 11 year old eyes thought the cover looked cool. I read it and was completely confused as to why Ms. Marvel ( I didn’t know who she was then actually) was so upset. I read it but I guess being 11 I didn’t really grasp at the severity of the situation. But now here I am 49 years old and watching my favorite UA-camr and BAM! you actually explain what happened before. Damn, I’m going to go and read it over again(of course I still have it). Thank you!
I read that issue in spanish when i was a kid. Loved the art at the time the story didn't make sense.
Quiro It is impressive how good George Perez was right from the beginning. His work would evolve a bit but he’s a great storyteller.
Wow ! Big respect to Chris Claremont, this dude is really one of the best comic book writers of all time
I’ve never seen this one. Now I’m hoping I never see it again. Great video as always Chris!
I love how in depth you go in these, thanks for putting these out and putting so much time and effort into them, love the channel dude, keep reading comics!!!
This isn't the lowest point, this isn't even the bottom of the barrel, oh no no this is septic tank level of bad
That jab at PUA was genius.
Best comic channel out here. Every show is a winner.
Very kind of you. Thank you.
Does every lowest point in Marvel comics involve throwing Carol Danvers under the bus?
Civil War (I & II) and the Ultimate universe version.
It's amazing that she wound up with a fanbase enough to strong arm Marvel into giving her a movie.
True
If only that was how come she got a movie. If only.
She had a strong fanbase among the editorial board.
Civil War I was awesome. What happened to Carol Danvers in the Ultimate Universe?
@@shabeki if I'm correct she was the leader of shield at one point. But didn't have power
Awesome! Can’t wait to see what arrives. Thanks again Chris. And congrats on the 4K subscribers.
The treatment of Ms Marvel sickened me at the time . She and Spider Woman were both treated like garbage and tossed aside . Then came Hank Pym's turn at being abused which has never stopped .
Spider-Woman was treated fairly, not every supehero has a happy ending.
I mean the one time Hank slaps his wife(due to communication error between the writer and artist that resulted in the infamous panel) and everyone makes sure he doesn't forget that one moment, regardless of the fact his wife brought it on.
@@rayvenkman2087 ...how the fuck was Jan the one who "brought it on"??? She was trying to talk some sense into him and he smacked the shit out of her. Her behavior was also bizarre in that issue, but NOTHING she did warranted being physically abused. And once is one time too many so yeah, he better not forget it.
@@Nocturne22 What about Cap becoming hydra,Iron man sparking a civil war,Spiderman making a deal with Satan,Hulk going on a rampage,Thor taking over the planet,Wolverine attacking the president of the united states,Captain Marvel sparking Civil War 2 and Cyclops murdering Charles Xaviet?
@@Nocturne22 Wasn't Hank like...literally going insane at the time of all that garbage?
Let's retcon this. It's NOT Ms. Marvel bring mind controlled. It's everyone else. This has a gaslighting effect on Carol. "Okayyyyy....guess I'll go with this guy."
SuperMAN Prime wait please go more into depth
I like that retcon, indeed it's a good retcon. But I'm glad Claremont didn't run with it. To me, the central question of Avengers #200 is, is the problem that bad things were done to Carol Danvers, or that the writers didn't understand exactly how bad those bad things were? I suspect the latter, in which case, it made sense for Claremont to call the writers out for exactly what they got wrong. Now that that's done, I would be okay with a further retcon that the Avengers were subtly mind-controlled too. Or even better, let's just retcon this issue out of existence altogether. You know anyone who sometimes punches reality and changes comic book continuity? We could use him right about now.
Or just change it so that instead of this Marcus guy basically tricking Carol into birthing him he just brings her to the dimension and simply explains what's going on like "supervillain, doing fucked up shit, I can stop him, stuck in this dimension,cant get out, need you to birth me, please it'll only take a day" and then Carol's like "ok sure" and you could still make it so that Carol doesn't know what's going on just make it so that when you go in and out of these dimensions you get a bit of amnesia for a day so that way when Marcus is explaining to the avengers what's going on and where he comes from Carol can start to remember as he's telling the story and she could be like "oh yeah I remember that now" I mean the story will still be weird and a little to convoluted but at least it's not that fucked up
I'm surprised you don't have more subscribers.
Ollie Hudd same
Ms Marvel’s first character assassination
Axel Tman ...of many.
It certainly wasn't her last; see Civil War I & II
Also see the now dead Ultimate universe
Hell, being raped by her own day own son could handily explain all the seemingly random character swings over the years. Of course she would be an overbearing blind control freak by civil war 2! Who WOULDNT lose all faith and trust in people after a life like hers?
Being Captain Marvel is when she ceased to give a shit.
0:36 We are getting pretty close to being able to see this lineup in the MCU.
Context and nuance! Fantastic look at Avengers 200.
Congrats on 4k subs! I started watching your channel before you got a thousand. Your channel is growing quite fast! Good luck on your youtube journey and please do not stop making comic book videos.
An Average Comic Book Channel Thank you. I have a lot of episodes scheduled out so no plans to stop anytime soon.
I love that you threw the box and then checked for damage while continuing the video. That's amazing. 😂
I remember this issue getting it from my classmate in 6th or 7th grade. I still have it. I always thought the story was corny but the cover artwork by George Perez was classic.
I'm glad Claremont fixed this story.
Fixing it would have erased the creepy rape. It was too late for that. At least he gave Carol a voice, though.
I lost it at “and beast, decides to punch some native Americans”
This is an old video. But man, thank you so much for this wonderful video. I just read recently Avengers annual 10. I've never read this period of Avengers. And your summary was so clear and well narrated. I had so much trouble understanding what Chris Claremont tried to do achieve. I just couldn't understand if Marcus was Inmortus or not, why the Avengers allowed this.
I thought that CC was just too patronizing and making a fuss out of nothing. But after seeing this video I understand better. This whole Avengers plot was a huge mistake that should have never happened. Thank you. Nice channel.
Thanks for clearing up the story for me, I heard about this mess for a while but never knew weather to cop up 20-40$ on Avengers #200 or to let it go. Thanks to this vid I'll just keep my cash.
How to fix this comic:
1. Ms. Marvel was trapped in Limbo by a malevolent force or a freak accident. Marcus helped her out of the situation and they fell in love naturally.
2. Ms. Marvel was the one who wanted them to be together on Earth. Marcus thought up the pregnancy thing but was unsure about it because it could be risky. Then have them both agree that their love was worth the risk so they try it.
3. The process of the pregnancy thing goes wrong and fragments their memories. Ms. Marvel forgets the whole situation and Marcus knew a few things like needing the machine, but not the full details of what's going on and why.
4. Both of them slowly remember as time goes on, with Ms. Marvel remembering her love and trust in Marcus, and Marcus remembering cryptic details that keeps the mystery going and prevents him from fully explaining himself to anyone.
5. By the time the machine is destroyed, both of them remember enough of what has happened and they have the big exposition dump about what was going on.
6. Marcus is unwilling to risk the pregnancy thing again out of fear of an even worse accident occurring, so Ms. Marvel decides to stay in Limbo with her love instead.
It probably wouldn't fix everything or make the comic good, but that's just 6 easy steps to keep it from being the trash that it is.
Wonder Man's Leisure Suit was a highlight of this issue.
i must have gotten into buying comics at a weird time, the Collection Obsession started off the whole thing with the Black Knight, Sersi and Proctor, Eric Masterson was Thor, Tony Stark fought a huge dragon and a dude with rings and died some issues later and was replaced by War Machine and because i didnt buy comics for more than a few years, thats kinda what those titles are for me
Oh no. As soon as you said Ms. Marvel, I remembered what this story was.
great content! a channel this good should have AT LEAST 5000 subscribers.
Some day soon, I hope. Thanks for watching.
Of all the ways to pronounce David Michelle-uh-knee’s last name, you certainly picked one of them.
This was just as bad as the infamous *It was all a dream* episode from *"Dallas".* This is gonna be a tetchy reunion in the next *Avengers* film.
I remember going to the barber shop as a kid a reading a comic that was laying around there. It was about some guy with cosmic powers fighting the avengers or something. It was a weird story, like at some point he was being tortured by demons and the next moment he "became his own son" or somehting. Then the avengers show up, along with some x-men and they fight, but it ends tragically. I remember either Iceman or Silver Surfer holding a baby on his arms and saying "it's dead". Really surreal. To this day i dont remember what that issue was, maybe it was the guy was the Beyonder?
There was a SECRET WARS II issue where it resolves sort of in that fashion. I can't recall if it was actually one of the core SWII issues, or a side, connected story. (And it was SS holding the dead Beyonder, I think.)
Oh yeah, it's Secret Wars II, issue 9!
hard to dcied which os owrse, this, carol's character assination in Civil War II, or Margaret Stohl's Captain Marvel Run
Chris you’re awesome! Great job!
Was the lowest point for the Avengers. Until Sana came along.
Wonder Man's red safari jacket is my favorite version. It was my first cosplay.
This is really weird. I was just researching this earlier, and suddenly this pops up.
Four different writers and nobody saw the problem in this issue? This really is a low for comics.
That book has been banned from my collection and my house for years. It’s inexcusable.
Great video
All the sadder when i consider the wonderful Avengers 98 to 100 anniversary story.
Gladly Carol has shaken off this story... Sadly Hank Pym has yet to overcome the horrible editorial work regarding his domestical issue with Jan...
Jan and Hank were always a strange duo. If you ever read his origin story, Jan is the exact duplicate of his dead wife, and she knowingly uses that resemblance to get him to fall in love with her. And later she gets him to marry her when he has a breakdown and split personality when he became Yellowjacket since, as she said, even getting married under an assumed name, it's still legal.
SO yeah, Jan is more the monster than Hank.
Did you say "finger in that pie?" 😆
I kinda wonder if this was a case of everyone over thinking something at the last minute, where at the moment it sounded like a good idea and run with it, but once it was released you slowly realize the mistake you've made.
That follow-up comic certainly is one of the most cathartic things out there, acknowledging a big mistake and letting it be had in-context.
Love seeing the George Pérez art though. Accent on the first e!
Oh hi, you've caught me mining for another cheap pun. Talk about tropes! Hahaha I love this channel
If Ms Marvel has been ok with this it would have been more disturbing. Because it would be like writers didn’t think of this form her perspective.
It was all about the art. To my childhood self, this was the best cover ever, and well worth my allowance money.
And the art as storytelling: so good! >> 8:41
Gotta love how the issue that involves a woman being mind controlled and raped so that she can give birth to said rapist features an ad for Toys R Us on the front. 😑 this comic is the definition of tone-deaf!
I bought and read this off the newsstand at 13 and was flabbergasted back then.
why does the guy say "koe-mick tropes" in the theme song????
Ikr, it's weird. And the way he says tropes it's like "cumic truups"
It's definitely grown on me, but I'm curious where the singer is from.
Haha! I came to ask the same thing! My guess is Chris outsourced this to a band in a non-english-as-first-language country to save $$$. It is fun and catchy though!
Perez once said he left the avengers because of his(mostly)DC workload,and marvel had a incentive program where if the artist got a bonus if they did 6 straight issues he wanted to let someone else get the bonus and focus on his DC work....still,the hysterical part was this was code-approved while X-men#137 wasn't....
I knew about this issue! Sick stuff!
I think its mish-ah-leenie
Michelinie
Thank You for the video. I had never got the chance to read this issue. I have been waiting for the Epic line un which it could be included but I don't expect it in the near future and now I am considering if I will get the Panini (Spain) book that will include several issues of the Avengers including this one. Regards
After the first time I finished reading Avengers 200, I thought the writers of that book had watched too much Taboo porn.
🤣
The concept itself was interesting, but, you're right, They should have been scared of this baby. I stopped reading comics for the most part in the '80's when Jim Shooter took over at Marvel. I didn't start reading them again until the early 2000's. I still have problems with the big two, but overall, I'm liking them again. I do reviews for two websites and I'm pleased, overall, with what I'm reviewing,
"All right boys, we're about to hit this big milestone, what are we doing for the big 200?"
"Time traveling date rape"
"Perfect!"
I also think my favorite thing ever is Thor being slapped and just looking mildly surprised at best
I don’t know why but I had always thought it was a time loop of her son fathering himself, being born and then going back in time to father himself
i remember being stoked when this came out.
and then i read it.
far less stoked afterwards. lol
Whenever people want to bash the Captain Marvel movie as the worst thing to happen to Carol, I will promptly shut them up by linking them to this.
Here's the crazy thing though it's not that hard to make this story not fucked up when the Marcus guy starts explaining what's going on he says "I was stuck in this dimension so I brought you there and tricked you into birthing me" it's so much more simple and much less fucked up if he just brought her to the other dimension and just simply explained to her what was going on like "supervillain, doing evil shit, I can stop him, stuck in this dimension, cant get out, need you to birth me, please it'll only take a day" and then she can be like "ok sure"
And I thought Chuck Austin’s run as Avengers writer was a low point, 😳
That punch up there in the corner....
I started buying The Avengers with issue # 127. With the addition of George Perez and later John Byrne this book was just killing it up until # 200. So I remember just being confused and out of sorts while and after reading this issue. Not just because it wasn't that interesting but because it just felt kinda wrong (although I couldn't place my 16 year old finger on it at the time).
Captain Marvel 2
The quest for super cooch
Staring Harvey Weinstein as Marcus
God, i love these. Please more lowest point vids on more teams
The first time I´ve read this issue was on the early nineties, as a kid. It was featured in a kind of double-issue TPB, along with the Ronin robot episode (which I really enjoyed). I remember reading at this and feeling very confused... looking at it with an adult perspective has certainly made it a whole lot worse.
Amazing work as aways... Been binge watching your channel since i found it...
how the fuck you have so few views? Excellent content, dude.
Me before watching this video: It can't be that bad
After watching this video: nope your right
Jim Shooter has NEVER made a mistake!
He is a mistake
@@VicEntity I think the only great things at marvel during jim shooters reign as editor n cheif were x-men, daredevil, and G.I.Joe the rest were either meh or just down right bad.
In fairness to Shooter, this was still early in his tenure as Editor In Chief! If anything,, JIM SALICRUP, the EDITOR of Avengers should have nixed the story in the first place! However, I'm glad Chris Claremont did right by Ms.Marvel (who was one of my favorite characters) in AVENGERS ANNUAL 10 , while backhandedly rebuking the original story!
One of the main results of AVENGERS 200 was Shooter's moving toward making the Marvel line more reader friendly. No more swearing or "controversial" storylines like this monstrosity! I think he went overboard by extending the policy to Marvel's B\W magazine line which was intended all along for older readers, but hey, nobody's perfect!
Didn't know that. More evidence that when Shooter was in charge, stuff like this would not see the light of day. Shame those ever so grateful talents(looking at you Byrne...) he had nurtured decided to bite the hand that fed him and be kicked out.
Jim may have been a work tyrant but he's the reason Marvel Comics was at it's best when he was Editor in Chief.
This is why when they say Carol makes no sense these days you just have to point back to this disaster.
Gooooooood stuff
@ComicTropes,were tempted to Jim Shooter should shot the ideas that don't represent the interest of the book/company because hence the phrase-"Shooter",ha?.
The ending is almost a dig at much of the ridiculous logic in comic books when moved into the real world.
I always stop mid movie to watch an episode idk why
man the quality of cpt marvel comics hasn't advanced or gotten better even now
(1:48) The writers should have used the kree plot (the original concept), however, due to a last-minute change, the actual issue 200 got into a mess.
Infinity war was 3 years ago damn
Have you discussed. The comic book decades ? Golden age silver Bronze Age ? The image years ?