How Jim Shooter Nearly DESTROYED the Avengers (Grading the Avengers, Part 4)
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
- Well, we've been talking about a lot of Avenges comics lately, but they have nothing on this one. Today we're talking about Jim Shooter's Avengers, and, in spite of some well-received stories like the Korvac Saga, Bride of Ultron, and the Nefaria Trilogy, this time in Avengers history is best known for Avengers #200, one of the worst comics ever made, and the accidental downfall of Hank Pym. Just about nothing great to talk about with this one, folks, but at least some cool artists like Sal Buschema and George Perez still around, that's something... kind of.
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#avengers #msmarvel #hawkeye #beast #korvac #kang #ultron #hankpym #wasp #marcus #avengers200 #marvelcomics #janetvandyne #yellowjacket #origins #jocasta - Розваги
You can watch the rest of this series here - ua-cam.com/play/PLT4_uRPsr1jANi1CbHOEOW9qoal2QuOyS.html
I'n sorry, but this guy wrote the Korvac Saga...
That's actually a very good story
@@nick.19 Thats my point...
This is amazing work. Dude. Very comprehensive.
Much appreciated!
How to fix this comic:
1. Ms. Marvel was trapped in Limbo by a malevolent force or a freak accident. Marcus helped her out of the situation and they fell in love naturally.
2. Ms. Marvel was the one who wanted them to be together on Earth. Marcus thought up the pregnancy thing but was unsure about it because it could be risky. Then have them both agree that their love was worth the risk so they try it.
3. The process of the pregnancy thing goes wrong and fragments their memories. Ms. Marvel forgets the whole situation and Marcus knew a few things like needing the machine, but not the full details of what's going on and why.
4. Both of them slowly remember as time goes on, with Ms. Marvel remembering her love and trust in Marcus, and Marcus remembering cryptic details that keeps the mystery going and prevents him from fully explaining himself to anyone.
5. By the time the machine is destroyed, both of them remember enough of what has happened and they have the big exposition dump about what was going on.
6. Marcus is unwilling to risk the pregnancy thing again out of fear of an even worse accident occurring, so Ms. Marvel decides to stay in Limbo with her love instead.
It probably wouldn't fix everything or make the comic good, but that's just 6 easy steps to keep it from being the trash that it is.
And yet if you had done research you'd know Shooter wasn't to blame for #200.
ah yes, from the very reliable source of jim shooter. he did apologize for the story, which is something
Avengers 200 was a travesty for sure.
But you even admit that you are completely unfamiliar with bulk of Shooters run on Avengers. You're not a real Avengers fan this is clear.
Shooter-Perez-Byrne-Sal Buscema run was one of best runs ever in Avengers history.
Doom-Attuma-Namor War, Graviton, Wonder Man vs Vision, Trial of Vision, Nefaria Trilogy, Bride of Ultron, Korvac Saga (overrated imo), Evil Undying (original novella was better)
Shooters later run on Avengers is mostly dreck but his first run was legendary. With art to match.
If you want to attack a writer, go after Bendis who destroyed the Avengers, Including Scarlet Witch (talk about gratuitous sexuality) and their rich history with his blatant mischaracterizations just so he could write his dream line up.
Amazing work.
Thank you! Cheers!
I love your retro stories
Thank you so much for saying that!
Worst avenger is carol danvers hands down straight trash.
Then you must not have heard of D-man, Stingray, and the Two Gun Kid.
@@brendandiamond2394 stingray is actually ok
@@brendandiamond2394 I would take all 3 instead of over powered woke douche danvers.
@@VanillaGorilla7 She's only been turned not that in the last few years.
Meh . It's become fashionable in certain troll circles to slander Jim Shooter but overall he is one of the true greats in the comics industry .
You're simply dead wrong. Shooter is one of the best Avengers writers. And looking back through a prism of " problematic " and " misogynistic ". ....does any criticism a disservice. Pym fucked up and it cost him his marriage. He didn't have Wasp run back to him.
And while Shooter accepts the blame for Avengers #200....it was still a group fuckup. And it's not like Avengers Annual #10 was created behind his back. He signed off on it.
His work was ok in my eyes avengers 200 is a group fuckup a really bad fuckup
@@springer2226 Avengers 200 had 4 plotters. And they had terrible communication. he story was supposed to be about the Supreme Intelligence being behind her pregnancy, but there was a last minute change because it was too similar to a recent What If...?
Even at the time I had no problem with Avengers 200. Ironman asked Carol if she knew what she was doing & she said not entirely. It showed that these heroes, these mighty super powered beings can make stupid decisions like the rest of us.
Exactly. I'm tired of fanboys bashing Shooter. Met the guy a couple times at conventions and he's always been humble and acknowledges when he's made mistakes.
Um did you forget that Wasp took advantage of Hank's mental breakdown in order to marry him?
If not for Hank Pym she would never have become a super hero .
Avengers 200 should be forgotten
This is interesting to me. Because I love shooters legion of superheroes, which he wrote as a teenager. But avengers 200 is insane lol. I've always been someone that's pretty good at appreciating art and keeping in mind when it was made. But there's no excuse for 200
I seem to recall an article titled, "How Jim Shooter Destroyed the Marvel Universe." People liked the first 12-issue limited series, Secret Wars. It was an event where a collection of villains and heroes face off on Battleworld. Heroes return to Earth one or two issues later in their respective mags, but their changes or mysteries are revealed over a year of comics, like how Spider-Man got a new costume, the Hulk hurt his leg, The Thing left the FF, Colossus fell in love and so on. However, the heroes don't bring their A-game and the art is a bit off to me.
Unfortunately, Jim Shooter decided to do a follow-up Secret Wars II, with The Beyonder coming to Earth and trying to be human, moving across and interfering with every title. (It makes me wonder about heroes who didn't have their own titles at the time, and why he didn't meet them too.) Art and story wasn't good for this one (and there was a discontinuity with his appearance in Alpha Flight). This led to more stories crossing over to multiple titles to the point where it was incomprehensible, and I gave up.
Jim Shooter around this time also came up with the idea of New Universe, which didn't last long. I suspect that with independent comics flourishing, he felt Marvel should increase their titles to saturate the market. I read something similar happened in the 1970s just before stagflation (recession + inflation) when paper costs soared and Marvel and DC had to cut titles they'd just started.
As more than one of these videos mention, Jim Shooter and Marvel editors seemed to have it in for their good writers as they left in disagreements or were forced out, or switched titles for a brief time, and so on.
I actually heartily disagree that Lee and Thomas' writing of women was significantly better than Shooter's. Wasp was always basically a dumb floozy who called every man under the sun a hunk, while Scarlet Witch barely had anything to do aside from pining for Captain America. I honestly admire Shooter for being so weird and out-there with his sexism, whereas Stan and Roy kinda just wrote lazy stereotypes.
Overall the run was not nearly as bad, as it is perceived, I think.. It was typical Bronze Age, with its first attempts to address social issues in comics. In a time, where Iron Man is a raging alcoholic (a story which is considered a classic btw), to address something like domestic abuse, shouldn't come as a huge surprise. And Shooter is actually quite a decent writer. One of my favourite 2-Parters is 219/220 where Moondragon decides to mind control an entire planet's population, to keep the peace between warring factions, and makes Thor her love slave to have him support her ideas. And the resolution to the story is actually quite good. If you like crazy ideas, its a fun ride. Oh, and a lot of the art is by comic greats like Perez and Byrne! I give this run a solid 5/7.
"address something like domestic abuse" implies it was done intentionally.
@@Demarcoa Pym was off the rails, and hit his wife. Should he have hit his wife? Of course not! That is not ok. But are these things part of reality? Do these things happen? Yes, sadly yes. Same with alcoholism, violence in general. I think what people really shocked was the reality of the situation. That these sort of things happen. They did not glorify it though, quite the contrary. Seriously. It boggles my mind how people still throw hissyfits over that in a world full of superheroes that constantly punch each other in the face. Planets get eaten by godlike creatures and sometimes half of life is snapped out of existence.
we talk about this in the video, though. an exploration of humanity's darker side would have been interesting, but that's not how the story was really constructed.
@@andreasesser4641 Not only was yellowjacket off the rails he suffering from a mental breakdown which made everything he did even sadder.
Let's not forget that the when he took the name yellowjacket hank had a split personality and thought he had killed hank pym.
What is always overlooked is that during that mental breakdown Janet tricked hank into marrying her even though she knew yellowjacket was really hank and she did not bother to get any help for hank or even tell any of the other avengers about what was going on.
Also if we look at the way janet treated hank in the past it shows us that she is not exactly the good wholesome girl everyone wants to believe.
Janet was constantly flirting with thor, iron man and even Cap and would make comments in front of hank about how great and sexy thor was; so it's a miracle that hank put up with janet's taunts and didn't dump her like a old trash bag. None of that excuses hank for back handing janet but many people talk like he jump on janet and beat the crap out of her or that he was always mean to her and hitting her which wasn't the case.
Hank realized that when he janet it was wrong and apologized and begged for her forgiveness right afterward; when did janet ever own up and apologize to hank for leading him on and trying to make him jealous all those times?? Never.
@@TheChristoph68 I don't quite agree with that either. I mean, sure, Wasp isn't perfect by any means either. She often acts like a flirty airhead, but its quite obvious from the get-go of their relationship, that their love is reciprocal. Hank always wanted to marry Janet, and just didn't have the courage to do it, partially because of an inferiority complex, because she is financially more well off than him. When he turns into the Yellowjacket the first time and kidnaps her, because he is completely out of whack, he kisses her, and in that moment or shortly after she realizes its Hank. The way it is presented its fairly obvious she wants to help him, and that she loves him, just the moment is kind of awkward. I guess its partly owned to the intention to give the readers a "Wow"-Moment. "Why is she marrying that stranger? I have to read the next issue!" But yeah, both Janet and Hank aren't perfect by any means.
I kind of find the scenes before the slap noteworthy. When the fans approach her, and completely ignore him, while he is completely out of luck, and has just been kicked out of the Avengers. Next page she tries to build him up, by telling him how great and awesome he is, and how silly and dumb she is herself. Of course she only says that, to make him feel better about himself. Her intentions are good, but its just obvious, that she just talks like that to appease him. Hank is mad in that moment. His self-worth is near zero, and her obvious attempts to make him feel better, make the discrepancy between the man he wants to be, and the man he currently is, even more apparent. And his plan how to get back in favor with the Avengers is absolutely insane, bred out of pure desperation. Of course Janet tries to talk him out of it. The only chance he sees in that mad moment, to redeem himself. And that is the moment he lashes out. The consequence of that is, that she divorces him the next issue. This is the end of the relatonship. And its tragic for both of them. The more I think about it, the more I feel Shooter pulled the whole story off rather decently. But all people do is focus on the backhand, and neither the circumstances, nor the consequences.
I think that issue is one of the worse. David Letterman issue ranks up there too. He did some of my fav's too.
For anyone wondering, 7:03 is Avengers #161 & it's apparently the only time Wasp wears that costume.
It is a shame youtube was down for an hour
Oh god, this story screwed up the character for a long while
Also...while everyone lauds Avengers Annual #10.... They depower Danvers! Then shoehorn her into the XMen books, try and recreate Phoenix ( for the umpteenth time) with Binary...then have her walk off when Rogue arrives.
The next Ms Marvel series should have been "MU heroes are idiots and maybe everyone should know about this"
@@supermanprime6758 I read somewhere that they didn't know how to write for Ms. Marvel who was an experienced 29-year-old woman. After Rogue joined the X-Men, I wanted to get Avengers Annual #10, but never did. Apparently Rogue (who was originally depicted much older than an 18-year-old) attacked her off-panel immediately before the issue begins. This annual was briefly mentioned in one of these videos, but I guess it's not really covered since it was written by Chris Claremont.
This channel has a 160k subd but I barely see it break 1,000 views
welcome to youtube 2020
@@ComicIsland yeah I’m not trying to be dick, sucks and hope things improve. Still like your videos
all good & thanks!
That’s sad cause the videos are so good
There is a Legit Reason why Carol's gotten more Masculine.
Hey, you're absolutely correct about Shooter! I grew up on those stories,, and I was devistated at what he did to Carol and Hank! Not to mention poor Jocasta!
Keep up the great work! Jj
Social commentary or not shooter's treatment of characters could have been handled better (see New Teen Titans issues 26 and 27 by Wolfman). Likewise what was Shooter's rational for Tigra and Jocasta's treatment under his tutelage? I think shooter was better as an editor and just simply could not write team books. And thank god for Claremont's pickup and correction of Danvers!
Jim shooter was the real villain he was the mastermind of all the bad events
Both the Carol Danvers and Hank Pym stuff were not planed by him. Hank Pym hitting his wife was a miscommunication between him and the artist. Shooter wanted to have Hank exclaiming and his arm accidentally hitting her while he burst his arms outwards and his arm went backwards and hit her, unaware. There was a miscommunication leading the artist to draw it as a hit. As for Avengers 200, it had 4 plotters. And they had terrible communication. he story was supposed to be about the Supreme Intelligence being behind her pregnancy, but there was a last minute change because it was too similar to a recent What If...?
@@goldenstatewarriors9418 Looks like he smacks her again in 217. 10:51
Wow. I suspected that the run before I got into the Avengers with 221 (She-Hulk and Hawkeye join) was really bad as they'd reflected on being manipulated by Moon Dragon. But Wasp (hit by Pym twice), Tigra (cowardice in battle), Ms. Marvel (ravaged by creature and Rogue) and Jocasta (brain dead?) all female characters, were put through the wringer!
@ComicIsland How do your videos not get more views? You've got 162k subs, the views should at least be in the 4-or-5 digits you'd think...I'll repost on my IG, maybe I can get some more viewers over here...Love your content, wishing you the best.
shooter was well known for stating that no woman hero would ever match (insert name of male hero) power-wise e.g. Phoenix