Why Do Fence Posts Rot and Break - Wood Fencing Damage
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- Опубліковано 2 сер 2012
- www.homebuildingandrepairs.com... click on this link for more information about wood fence construction and home repairs. Watch this video to learn reasons why wood fence posts rot and fall apart. Moisture and water seems to be wood's worst enemy and let's face it in nature it's part of the decomposition process, so there isn't much we can do about it. However, if you understand what causes the wood post to rot, I'm pretty sure you can figure out a few ways to reduce these problems and extend the life of your fence. In other words, extend the life of your wood fence posts and save money in the future by reducing your future home repair bills. If this sounds good and you're looking for some more interesting tips and ideas, visit our websites today area
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Additional videos can be found at our website in the fence section or by checking out this playlist ua-cam.com/play/PLGyVeAgAJ-tkXRqWKi_iOedGXXHKBLHFo.html .
I've had great luck using a method an old farmer told me about. Coat the in ground portion of your posts and a bit above the ground level, with a mixture of diesel fuel and used motor oil, basically a 2 part oil to 1 part fuel mix. Apply it with an old brush, let it dry overnight and coat it again one or twice more. When dry, it'll leach minimally if at all, but will do a good job repelling moisture and keeping bugs to a minimum. You should get nearly 2/3 times the lifespan with this method.
I've definitely heard that one before and it's one others might want to pay attention to, just don't let the environmentalist know about it.
My posts rot at ground level. To prevent this, mound the concrete slightly above ground and slightly slope it away from the pole. If it's an area you don't need to mow then you can mound it up higher. Also put pea gravel in the bottom of the hole, no concrete below the post that would seal the wood in.
Thank you for the video. I have used all metal posts for the fences and I do not have to worry about any rot, break, and damage to the posts.
I just pulled up six 40+ year old wooden fence posts last week that weren't set in concrete & only 2 of them broke...the underground portions of them were just like they were when my dad planted them over 4 decades ago when I was a kid...that's how I know how long they've been there...I was absolutely amazed by this...the 2 that broke, broke off at the ground with the upper portion being way more rotted than what was in the ground...
Thanks for sharing.
What sort of wood did your father use? Were posts charred, chemically treated, concreated, or graveled or a combination of them? Do you know how thick the posts were and how far they were into the ground?
Thanks for taking the time to share your story. I think one of the hardest problems I'm having with some of these viewers is pointing out that I haven't found a way to install wood fence posts that will work in every single state or other parts of the world. What works in Colorado, might not work well in Maine.
Have you discovered a way to properly put in a post that is permanent?
It sounds like you've oversimplified the process, but you're right on track. This really is a tough thing for me to wrap my mind around.
Many 100's of fenceposts & decades of experience later , I ultimately concluded that using metal fenceposts set in concrete with wood rail adapter brackets is the only way to go.
Then you have rust rot instead of wood rot..just joking man Im sure that metal last 4 times as long as wood..So what size metal post?? What are the dimensions for a metal post on a wooden privacy fence???Thanksmann..
In my area they sell 1 5/8"diam., as well as 2" diam. round galv stl fence posts at the Home Depot. Each kind has the associated hardware needed (@ extra cost) to transition to horiz wooden fence rails, as well as 'caps' to keep the water out. It also looks like HD has a new line of powder coated aluminum posts, both round &/or square. The 2" square ones have pre-cut slots to mount the wooden rails in , as well as a matching corner post, which looks interesting & would save the trouble of mounting the transition brackets. I've used both sizes of the round stl posts & noted that, as expected, there was more flex in the smaller diam posts....if you use the round stl posts, I'd recommend the 2". I've never used the new aluminum posts but it does appear to be a feasible long-lasting alternative, providing the metal is thick enough not to be too flimsy. HD has a few other types of metal fence posts...the 'Z' type & the Master Halco, which work well for 2-sided fence installations. Hope things go smoothly for you ;)
DMcD Thank you for the reply..I just finished my 2 decks[2nd time'] thanks to shitty menards wood 10 years ago.. I had kept up on the stain and from now on I think behr stain solid is the way to go....Now its time to do the fence and it is 10 years old also and they feel pretty solid but I noticed some are half rotten right at the concrete line...I over did it and used like 3 bags or so of concrete back in the day...But the fence goes around the bottom deck so i figured it would help the deck to like a footing...Now I will check out my post options..One problem will be tearing out all that concrete so I will just cut them off and maybe buy 6 foot fence panels vinyl maybe and put the post in different spots....Thanks for all the post info..If only you could rig up the composite or vinyl post wraps to go over the galv post ...That would look better ,...I will check out home repo tmrw.....thanks,.
That’s why I paint mine with that asphalt crack repair stuff. Before I put the post in I paint them so they have a coat about 12” above the ground. It is rubberized and protects the wood to add years to the fence.
I'm owner of a fence construction company that's been in business for 35 years in NE Oklahoma. I've replaced a lot of wood fence and the primary failure is the post rotting and breaking at ground level. The post are usually rotted inside the concrete as well. I do see back rails rot to the point they start letting the panels fall off before the post break, but that is rare. It's been my observation that around here the main factor is simply how long the area stays damp. Being it is typical to use concrete to set post here it is rare to see how other set methods work, but what little I have seen doesn't seem to make much difference. In this area it is rare for a 4x4 to fail in less than 15 years, but that's when they usually start going down hill fast, not that some folks don't have much older fences standing simply because they get no wind loading, and it takes surprisingly little to hold a fence upright.
Non-treated lumber is completely useless for a post or back rail on a fence. I only see DIYers use non-treated and it's basically throwing money away. I can tell that the new ACQ lumber isn't as good as the OSHA retired treatment. Also landscape post have been total jokes since the mid 80s and always fail faster than 4x4s.
Galvanized steel post work very well, but they need to be 2 3/8" OD sch 40. Any metal post below that strength level is prone to taking a permanent bend from wind loading that won't harm a wood 4x4, so it is unacceptable. A 2 3/8" OD sch 40 post will take more wind loading than a 4x4 can survive meaning if they do take a slight bend it is a victory over wood post since the fence would be laying on the ground, also at that wind load the wood components start failing anyway. It's been my observation that due to the fact that 2 3/8" OD sch 40 is used for industrial chain link, the specs keep the galvanized coating thick enough to last a very long time. One of my main clients is a large petrol chemical company, and it is rare I remove, or change fencing that is less than 40 years old with the post showing any real corrosion. I always try to convince customers that plan on being in their home for more than 15 years to spend the extra on metal post, as the extra expense will pay them back greatly later on as they will get all the life possible from their back rails and pickets, and when they need to be replaced the job will be much cheaper.
member548 Thanks for sharing what it's like in Oklahoma, but I've seen treated lumber rot just as fast as untreated lumber so I would need to disagree with your comment on treated lumber. There are different grades of treated lumber you can purchase and those with more chemicals might last longer, but it all depends upon how much moisture is in the ground and how long it remains around the wood.
The metal post I would be referring to is "2.375-in x 96-in Gray 16-Gauge Galvanized Steel Chain-Link Fence Terminal Post." This is something that produces a wobbly fence and in my opinion wasn't designed to support a wood fence and therefore I don't recommend using them, because I've seen the wind blow them over.
Please keep in mind that my videos are based off of the 35 years I spent in the business and might not be applicable in your areas.
gregvancom No doubt a 16 gauge post doesn't work. The wall thickness on 16 gauge is .065" which is a fine choice for a residential weight chain link fence. 2 3/8" Sch. 40 has nearly more than double the wall thickness at .154", also the galvanize weight is much higher making a much longer lasting post. The only draw back to steel post is cost, as they can be boxed and hidden visually if a customer doesn't like how they look, but of course that is even more cost. It's easy to figure a 2 3/8" sch 40 post 8' long will be over $30 by time the pipe to wood brackets are included, where as a treated ground contacted rated 4"x 4" will be less than $9.
Thanks a lot for clarifying that. It sounds like a schedule 40 post would work just fine and I'm glad to hear it from someone who has been installing them for years. I guess the next problem most people would need to deal with, would be the actual cost of building a structurally secured wood fence. I've never seen a ground contact rated 4 x 4 in Southern California lumber yards or home improvement centers and was wondering if you could provide us with a little more information on how anyone reading this comment could find both the metal post and the 4 x 4.
I stopped using concrete and now spray the post from bottom up to about 4 or 5 inches above the ground level with Spectracide pruning seal.
member548 ,
Make sure you dig the hole large enough to have 2"-3" of concrete around the entire post. If your soil is heavy put 3"-4" of gravel in the hole under the post. If your soil is sandy or well drained you do not need the gravel. Next treat the wood post with a below ground combination fungicide/insecticide product available at most home centers from the bottom up to a few inches above the grade. Position the post into the hole and add a couple more inches of gravel or soil then tamp that material around the post with a 2"x2" wooden stick( we use a steel bar with a 2"round flat end). Even if you use a pressure treated post, still apply the below ground treatment as termites can eat the center of that post which has no protection. All woods will rot, even cedar and redwood. Next, mix and pour your concrete as a collar around the post and cove the top of the concrete above the grade and away from the post. The concrete collar is only for stabilizing the post. Yes, wood posts can absorb water and moisture and they will swell and shrink with the weather conditions. Gaps will appear between the post and the collar from wood shrinkage or the concrete may crack, that sometimes happens. By not having concrete under the end of the post the rain water will run down along side the post and wick out the bottom into the soil or gravel making it less likely to rot. After 25 years building fence this is how I build it for myself and my customers. AZ Fence Contractor
I love you. xoxo FIX-A-FENCE Inc - OH Fence Contractor
One thing to add for a DIYer homeowner with a wood fence. After following Mr Waterman’s above instructions, come back at a 1-2 year time span and use a good 109% silicone caulk to fill the gap where the post has shrunk due to drying on all 4 sides between the post and concrete. This will reduce the amount of water going between the post and concrete giving the gravel a better opportunity to drain the water away.
The more clay in your soil, the more gravel you need in the bottom of your hole. In my area, I put 6-8 inches of gravel, as we have a high clay content soil!
@@coypatton3160 Forget the silicone. Use a elastomeric, one-component, self-leveling, non-bubbling, premium-grade polyurethane sealant .
Good video. I've also thought of concrete as a "sponge"
I was looking for the "solution" to the problem at the end, and I never found it!
(you asked for suggestions) to me, that would be the logical next step...1. problem 2. solution.
thanks
I will need to look into that, I've never heard of it before. I know that my step daughter loves hemp products, but that's almost the extent of my knowledge about it, when it comes to construction. I know it makes a great rope and string and you're probably right about the reason why it's illegal.
Very informative video. I appreciate the time you take explaining it even though there's no one size for all solution. I live in VA where the ground is pretty wet. I'm considering putting a disclaimer in my contracts about premature wood rot and offer the option of metal posts. But now I have to research about them rusting
Definitely put that in your contract. I would also suggest examining fences built in your area a little more closely see which ones are lasting longer. I have a neighbor about two houses down who built a wood fence with metal posts that are normally used for chain-link fencing and his fence is doing just fine. Probably about eight years old.
@@gregvancom I saw a video where this older guy used roofing tar 3ft, from the up. Leaving the bottom open so it doesn't cup. Wonder what inspectors would think of that
That's a good idea and this would work great for areas where water won't be a problem.
Small tight gravel heavily compacted. Drains and holds. Even a poly sand for between bricks works great.
What you recommend using for posts
Wood that is completely immersed in water typically does not rot because of the lack of oxygen. Rotting tends to occur at the border between wet and dry. A place on the post that is soaking wet sometimes and dry at others is likely to rot.
Personally I'd just go with metal or perhaps concrete posts depending on the application.
Some natural woods withstand rot better than treated lumber. The heartwood of pine trees, ESPECIALLY long leaf pine, (sometimes called "fat lightered" wood or just fatwood) does an amazing job of withstanding rot. Black locust wood may even be better. There are some tropical woods that are also very good, but making a fence post out of tropical hardwood seems like a waste of money. Note: If you are thinking of growing black locust trees for posts, be aware that it can turn into a hard to kill weed.
+Gewgulkan Suhckitt Greetings from England! You are absolutely right . I have seen hundreds of posts like this . They break right at ground level . If you take the time to big out the bit in the soil it is usually as solid as when it was put in
I've learned to read between the lines over the years and sometimes knowing that there's going to be a problem if something is built one particular way could be beneficial.
For what it covers, the video is fine, well made, but why would you make a video like this without at least a passing wave to the 'best solution you've found so far' at the end???
eyeballfarmer i think the message is wood sucks.
We know the posts will rot, otherwise we wouldn’t have clicked the video. Pretty sure we can surmise as to why they rot. I was hoping for a solution that I hadn’t tried or thought of but, no. This was as helpful as a screen door on a submarine. We are all dumber for having watched this. Thank you, may god have mercy on your soul.
blaine Nelson , lol you got to award no points as well
On a positive note, how about setting the concrete a couple inches above the ground.
This video was useless 😂
Nice video.
You pretty much addressed the main problem with using concrete to set wooden posts. I would add that the post also needs oxygen to rot which is why it tends to rot right at ground level first.
The other problem with concrete in northern climates is with frost heave. Pouring concrete directly into a hole will promote frost heave.
I suggest using something as simple as a good compacting gravel to set the posts. The gravel will allow moisture to wick away from the post. Plus it will decouple the frozen earth from the post limiting frost heave. And its cheaper.
I would like to add that wood fence post can rot below the surface and actually start rotting below the surface. Hopefully people in areas where ground frost is a problem also read your statement and it's definitely something I need to share with others.
Realistically seems to be the word of the day!
I always purchase clear creosote when I purchase treated post going into the ground. I apply the creosote on the post from bottom to top to bottom, including a good amount to the ends of the post. This prevents water from entering the post. It also extends the life of the post for 10+ years. Set them on saw horses and have at it. Allow at least 24 hours to dry. Clear creosote only.
I set 4X4 and 6X6 pressure treated posts into a concrete pier with the pier terminating at grade level. I then butter the top surface of the pier, around the base of the post and about 6 inches up the post with an acrylic paintable caulking. I use a cheap DAP exterior caulking which states that it has a 30 year life. when used or normal caulking purposes. Butter the caulking on with a putty knife about a quarter inch thick. I find it seals the base of the post where it is always wet with debris, ice, snow and wet leaves tend to gather. it seals the gap where the post enters the pier after the wood shrinks with time to prevent water from pouring down between the concrete and the encapsulated wood post and it seals the top of the concrete pier. I've found that the caulking does break down after about 7 to 10 years and allows water to reach the critical post base at that time so the rot process begins then, rather than the day after you installed the post. If I've extended the life of the post by five years or more, that's a fair benefit for the two dollars that it costs to butter each post.
So I installed a fence with pressure treated 4x4 posts and simple (lazy) concrete plugs. 3 years later i've got posts rotting off at the top of the plug:( I've started replacing them as they fail with a post in a formed plug (suana tube, above grade domed top, caulked joint). Is this method worth the extra effort or am I just whistling in the dark? thanks
This is why I make my own concrete fence posts.
I doubt if I will ever be using a script... Umm...but thanks for the advice, you're not the first person who said that and I am trying to do better.
Agree, it depends on the soil type. Here in Colorado, we have clay like soil, so water tends to roll off the ground. Nonetheless, I took these steps to minimize moisture and so far it has worked well. IE, my neighbors and I had to rebuild our fences due to a major micro-burst a few years ago. Well, we had another one and my surrounding neighbor's cedar fences got destroyed and mine is standing. Their rot can be attributed to concrete and wood shrinkage based on what where the posts broke.
I have a question. How did you generate that image in the video?
I like your youtube name and thanks for the chemistry lesson.
Here, on the Outerbanks of NC, our soil has a high content of sand and drainage is very good We do not use concrete to erect fences (or similar structures). We just excavate the soil at a depth of at least 1/2 the height of the post. Post are then tamped in (with a sledge) until there is no more movement. The static pressure that the sand puts on the posts is more than adequate to maintain the post in a vertical position One more thing that we do to extend the life of the post and that is we apply liquid copper preservative to any end that was sawed (cut) by yourself. I don't know how many years posts last but I see very few replacement posts.
Thanks for sharing and it's good to know what other people are doing around the world and US.
I once saw my uncle build a fence when I was a kid and he covered the bottom portion of the post with tar before putting them into the ground and adding the concrete. Not sure how good it works but thought I would share.
I did the same
This is good to know. Better to know is...How do I fix it?
How about wrapping the concrete with a fabric that wicks away the moisture? Kinda like UnderArmour for fenceposts?
What do you think of metal brackets in concrete, and securing the post to the bracket? Something like the simpson LCB44. If the post does eventually rot or is damaged another way it can be replaced without digging out concrete. Other than the additional cost are there any significant disadvantages?
+Jason Markantes - If you look at the Load Tables for Simpson Strong-Ties LCB44 post base you will see that they were only designed and tested to resist uplift loads. The load on a fence is generally a lateral load from wind and Simpson Strong-Tie does not give a rating for lateral loads. While the post base may provide some lateral resistance there is no way to know how much. So unless you can find a post base that is rated for lateral loads, I would expect that the connection between the post base and the post will be the weak point. www.strongtie.com/nonstandoffcolumnbases_columnbases/lcb-cb_productgroup_wcc/p/lcb.cb
Will covering the posts with flex seal or rhino bed liner help or eliminate any water being absorbed by the posts?
I work in termite and dryrot wood repair and replacement. I've seen it all. So many tricks for rot proofing, and I've seen all of them fail. there are 4 things you can do that i can promise will extend the life of a wooden post. Everything else, i just don't know if it'll help. 1st, type of wood. cedar or red wood are better than douglas fir. You pay more but is worth the price. 2nd, treated is better than non treated. if you can do treated cedar, that would be the way to go. Your typical pressure treated lumber does ok, but i believe that's just doug fir. it beats non treated doug fir. 3rd, the bottom of the post should be sitting on gravel. allows for drainage. 4th, last but not least. don't let water puddle at the base of the post. Build up the concrete above ground level and slope away to keep water away. I've seen doug fir post last over 10 years using only this method alone. This is all i have. I don't know that paint, or tar, or water proof paper or what not, is going to be all that effective. Stuff like that can trap water over time. I just don't know for sure. Just follow my 4 suggestions and you'll do fine.
I like your thinking.
Keeping it simple and good advice.
Crush stone on the bottom tar the post couple of cleats and no cement. Cement does nothing but rot your posts. Pack down you soil
Ceder is better for rot, but way too soft for fence posts. If you live FAR inland away from hurricanes then fine I suppose. And can't use cedar up north either, because the nor'easters can produce hurricane streingth winds.
Thank you for your advice! I'll be building a garage without walls, only 4 beams (4 by 4's) and a tin roof. I'll be using your method for my foundations. Only thing I'm gonna be doing different is that I'll use oak beams, and also I'll spray them with tar where the beam touches the concrete + 20 cm above. I hope this will last for 30 years.
One thing I do is always put down a few inches of gravel at the bottom of the hole and then use wet cement. Fill the hole, place the wood. Square and level the wood. And then the top of the cement mold it at a semi cone shape so that water drips down and away from the post. This will help with ground rot where most of the rot I have seen happen.
Alex Moreno gravel will actually hold water on the post. do an experiment for me. Fill a jar with 1/4 pea gravel, 1/4 sand , 1/4 topsoil, and 1/4 organic matter. The water will fill up each soil horizon before it "releases" the water to the next. This is caused by osmotic pressure. So in an effort to let the water drain by filling the bottom of the hole with gravel you've actually trapped the water. Solution to experiment and fence post is to mix all of the soils for faster drainage.
Now, do the same experiment without the jar, that's right. The water spreads out the disperses on the bottom and the sides. You keep not putting in a base layer, and I keep putting it in. Never had a fence post fail from wood rot on the base yet. Remember, if you topped your post correctly, the top of the base of the post will be domed shape, not flat, so water run off will do exactly as it was designed, runoff the sides and drain from the bottom. Putting something in an enclosed jar, limits the actions and does not show true effect.
FINALLY!!! A FENCER! I'm so happy to see you. This author should be banned from making fence videos - it's not even close. Thank you, for being you.
Hi, great insight into the concept! What about using expanding foam instead of concrete?
I've mentioned this in other comments about foam, but if foam keeps the water out, than it will also keep it trapped if it gets between the gaps or cracks, making it a bigger problem than a better solution.
Wow, you sound like you've never seen a piece of pressure treated wood used for a fence post rot, well I have one in my backyard that can't be more than 10 years old and I'm guessing realistically it isn't more than five years old in desperate need of repair, because it is falling apart and suffering from dry rot.
Please keep in mind that foam mixtures won't solve this problem. Foam can actually trap moisture that absorbs through the wood post and works its way down where it can become trapped rotting the post out even faster. Please be advised that there are plenty of people on UA-cam who are trying to sell their products by making it sound like your average homeowner is giving you some great advice.
It's funny but ever since I posted this comment about foam mixtures, people quit asking questions, so I must of been right. The product manufacturers must of had people leaving comments like it was the best product ever. I'll keep you posted to what happens in the future.
Can spray post with sealant, oil, other stuff instead of concrete?
What you can do is paint Henry's # 107 waterproofing onto the post below ground and 2-3 inches above ground. Do not paint the bottom but put 3-4 inches of gravel in the hole so moisture can drain out of the bottom of the post.
Also seal open ends of wood and joints where water can get in you can paint over this stuff but not stain it.
The gravel won't eliminate problems where soil doesn't drain well. The gravel will tend to provide areas for moisture that cannot penetrate through clay soils to gather and remain for long periods of time.
I put a small grape arbor in my yard 40 years ago. It was PT 4x4" posts rated for ground contact. I put 4-5" of crushed stone at the bottom of the post holes and plced the posts on top of that and poured concrete around the posts but left 3" of soil at the top of each post hole.
The soil is very sandy but 40 years and counting ain' bad.
Here's to 40 more and thanks for sharing.
what about using metal for posts? I saw one with some industrial looking metal for posts for a 6" wooden fence. I suume this is better? Not sure where to buy these metal silver posts? They simply placed a wooden picket over the metal post to give illusion of it being all metal.
Use treated lumber and soak in linseed oil..
And paint with oil base paint...
Hopefully others will leave helpful comments to your dilemma, but realistically it will depend upon what caused the post to rot in the first place. If the concrete was below the soil, then raising the concrete above the soil will help, but there are no guarantees. I don't have one solution that works for everyone and recommend visiting our list of videos at the website and heading over to the fence section for more information.
We won't be handing out any prizes on this one today, because it won't work in every part of the world. As long as the lumber is exposed to moisture and the fence located in the wrong climate, something like this could be a problem. Water will actually soak into the wood and become trapped in the lower areas that have been tarred, eventually rotting the wood. However it's nice to hear about another successful method and congratulations to your family and grandfather.
Another option that struck me the other day was to use something like "rustoleum bed liner" or latex spray on a can and cover the bottom of the post in that.
Would make for less of a messy installation but I have seen cases where rust forms underneath "bed liner" products so they apparantly are not completely tight, latex should be though.
Gravel in the bottom of the hole.
seal the post with roof tar or wrap with bitchathane.
They now make products for mortar and grout that you mix into it to make it water proof.
Always slope the top of the concrete away from the post. As will as have the concrete above ground level.
Caulk around the gap at the post and concrete meet.
If the customer is willing to spend the extra money. add a piece of coated 1/8-1/4 angle iron in the ground with the post.
sticking out 1' above the ground.
Foam is also an option but must have hard soil or deeper holes.
Does not work with load bearing posts. (ie gates)
What is the small angle iron in the ground for? What is foam? Thanks.
keeps the post more stable against wind movement as well as when the post doese start to rot you have the angle Iron to then bolt the post to. Foam : just like spray insulation. closed cell. use it instead of concrete.
+Dusty G. Thank you so much for posting, Dusty. I knew if I read enough comments I'd find one with the info I needed. You the man!
Top comment, nice one Dusty - proper job ; )
That's good news. However, this method will work all the time. Soil and weather conditions will be a factor. To give you an example, I painted a wood fence post with an oil-based paint in Southern California where it rarely rains, but had a neighbor water the fence with the sprinklers and within less than a year, needed to replace the post again.
Ok so. What is your advice solution !? Ths a lot for this clear vidéo
ua-cam.com/video/twtaueV-SqY/v-deo.html see if this helps.
Remember, some of the information you hear on youtube, will need to be validated. Just because someone says something works great or one product works better than another or that a particular corporation or company uses their product, doesn't mean that it actually works or will work under every condition.
I always use concrete as more of an anchor than a base for the post. Put the post in the hole and add a couple inches of dirt, before pouring concrete. I've pulled up posts that were 20 years old that were as dry and solid as the day I set them.
What if you dig the hole much deeper and add rocks or gravel at the bottom and have more concrete with a more round hole? would you prevent water from getting all the way to the wood or at least prevent much more water than would have got there?
The problem I see with using gravel around the perimeter of a wood post with concrete is that it could allow moisture from the surrounding ground to settle in the area with the gravel, especially with clay soil. Check out some of our other videos for more information at our website.www.homebuildingandrepairs.com/fences/index.html
so how to avoid that? should i coat first the footing of the post with sealant then foot the cocrete? what is the best way...i want to build a pergola on deck and im trying to figure out ways of avoidind that
I really don't have a solution to the problem and am still working on it, but this video might help Slope Concrete Fence Footing To Drain Water Away From Wood Post .
So what do you do to make the post last, or are you asking?
I thought about plastic too, might try that.
the treated wood has moisture in it, so thats going to be there anyway. plastic (and rubber) membranes are what protect underground wood foundations, like the one I built for my house last summer.
As long as you get the right metal, it should last longer than wood. However I've seen people install wooden fences with the same materials used for chain-link fences(metal posts) get blown over in strong winds. I really don't have an answer to which is actually better, especially if you're trying to be cost-effective.
It would be nice if you included one of the ways to help alleviate this problem, which is to have a bed of gravel below the concrete and have the post continue past the concrete into the gravel. Finally, wetting of the wood is not really the problem, but the cycle of wetting and then drying (dry rot).
I don't have a solution for this problem and it's obvious to me that gravel isn't going to be the solution if it's placed in expansive soil that doesn't drain well.
that's pretty much the standard logic, gravel underneath concrete gives you drainage. It's not that concrete or wood gets wet, it when they are standing in water for very long periods of time or as you said, wetting and drying in a rapid manner, sprinklers are good for that kind of thing.
Char the area of wood fence posts with a tiger torch till it is blackened good.. Keeps bugs and rot from destroying the wood post.. Try it
What if you angle or ramp the concrete down on all four sides of the post so that the water will shed away and not toward it?
Hi, would adding loose gravel at the base of the post beneath the concrete help in draining water and reduce the rotting ?
I'm pretty sure I made a few more videos and they can be found here video.gregvan.com/fences.htm that might be more helpful. It all depends on the soil, its ability to retain water and how this water drains away from the fence post. Sometimes gravel will actually provide the surrounding soil with an area to collect water and eventually damage the post. I'm not a big fan of installing gravel around fence posts for this reason.
I told my wife the exactly the same idea, she did not believe me, she always think that I am stupid, glad to see this video, I will show her., thanks!
She's stoopid.
hi sorry if this has been asked before. I have seen theas things called post savers that heat shrink sleeves to the post about at ground level not all the way down the post. will rapping the post work just as well in cling film parcel wrap work as well. I have allotment and the water table is very low and good soil so posts tend to rot fast.
+Adrian Eyre Maybe it's time for a video, because this is a question I've received numerous times. The problem I have with wrapping the bottom is that moisture can be absorbed in through the upper section of the wood post and work its way down where it would be trapped, rotting the post even faster. You might consider using metal's posts, but I really don't have anything that would provide you with something that would work well.
+gregvancom I dont mean to rapping all of the post to the bottom just the part that meets the ground level like on www.postsaver.com they claim that 100% Effective; Zero reported fence post or utility pole failures due to ground rot in over 20 years. using there system that sum how slides onto the post and is heat shrink on. or are they doing something i have mist here.
I have fence post put in 1983 and still strong enough for a Hurricane. Good on setting the post on concrete. I would raise the concrete above the soil line so the post does not touch soil.
Definitely and I have a couple in my backyard that might be about the same age, still going strong.
would using a treated wood as posts make any difference? thank you for the video
See if this link helps ua-cam.com/video/TheW4lynSkk/v-deo.html
There are treated woods that last longer than others and the answer to your question would be yes you got a better grade of lumber with more chemicals.
I am using the plastic protective sleeves for ease of changing post when they inevitably rot. I have not seen a comments on this! From what I learned these allow post to breath and last longer. I also put gravel in the bottom, set my post and sleeve together, add a little more gravel around the base then drop in some dry concrete so the mixed I pour on top will not go under the plastic and adhere to the bottom of the post. This in theory allow the post to drain and prevent rot for a much longer period of time. Not sure how good this approach is with clay or a shale base of the hole, but if it does drain and no concrete sticks to the post it should last longer and when the inevitable rot does occur the post should be easy to replace. Not sure why I have not seen any other posts like this?
That's the same method I use here in the UK, and it rains a lot here!!! my father taught me this same method 45 years ago his fence lasted 40+ years, also he did treat it with used engine oil and paraffin mix 2:1 every 3 to 4 years. Took him 3 to 4 years to save up the used engine oil.
You've got a good idea, but you might be forgetting about any moisture around the concrete footing from the soil that can be absorbed into the concrete. If only a small section of the wood underground wasn't covered or sealed, you could end up with a bigger problem than if you left it alone.
I agree, he could have truncated the explanation, and proved some ideas to possible solutions or alternative strategies to counter rot.
What about copper naphthenate to treat the wood compared to any benefit - if any - pressure treated wood provides for this application?
Facing the same problem for some years on a beach region soil in North/East Europe. Got small fence ~ 1000mm from ground. Always rots at the place where soil and air meets. This winter got an idea - Dig in the ground stainless steel rod with a (100mm x 100mm) foot, (600mm long and +/- 300mm deep in ground), drill hole (270mm - 250mm deep) in the middle of the pole base. Stick the pole on the rod avoiding the pole touching earth. If need to replace, just take off the pole and switch to a new one. There is no wight to fight for the pole as i have only one horizontal log till the next pole. Just like the cow corral on field. Any tips or criticism?
Bolable It sounds like a good idea, but how does it hold up in strong winds. My main concern would be building a 6 foot tall wood fence and having it blow over during a strong wind. It seems like it would be a great idea for a 3 foot tall wood fence.
gregvancom 1000mm = 1m = 1 meter = 3.2808399 feet (3 feet 3⅜ inches). Thats right also I have no pressure from wind as I have only one horizontal log. I believe the idea should be also usable for higher fences and pretty strong wind. Solution - deeper in ground and deeper the steel rod in the pole.
You've got a good idea, but I don't know if it would be cost-effective. You can purchase large metal posts that will last for decades, but whether or not this method is cost-effective would be up to the homeowner.
If you want fence posts that will last forever use cedar wood posts and crushed stone instead of concrete so the water can drain. Foamcrete might also be a good substitute since it requires more water to be mixed with it than normal concrete and the fact that it is part foam should mean it holds less water as well. You could also wrap plastic around the bottom of the post, that black plastic roll that looks like a roll of garbage bags that you lay down when framing on concrete works best
You're welcome and thanks for watching. Don't forget to tell your friends about our channel.
Should the wood post be sealed with oil based paint or another protectant before placing it into the cement? Also, should we create a drainage hole from the bottom corner of the cement ? Or would that make more problems? Sand at base, then concrete, then post? Your expertise is appreciated. Thank you.
You should find more answers in this playlist Fence Design And Building Videos - ua-cam.com/play/PLGyVeAgAJ-tkXRqWKi_iOedGXXHKBLHFo.html
I've never had good luck sealing the bottom of a fencepost, but others have. You might find what you're looking for at our website in the fence section or by checking out this playlist ua-cam.com/play/PLGyVeAgAJ-tkXRqWKi_iOedGXXHKBLHFo.html .
I have had 2 'pressure treated' fence post break off at ground level, these were put into the ground w/cement around the posts..gravel on the bottom first. I have sandy soil. So yeah they break off. Now I am worried about the arbor that was built over my deck.
I agree with romansten9. Make a video about what's a better solution. What about pea gravel?
Hypothetically?
The top of the post foundation should be slope shouldered to shed water, and the whole post should be sealed to reduce water & bacterial intrusion. If the base is poured around the post, the post should be sleeved for protection & easy inevitable replacement. The top of the post should also be capped or sloped to avoid standing water & reduce bacterial growth.
Great points
I apply Thompsons Water Seal on the post, then twice wrap thick tar paper around the bottom two feet of the post and staple it on. I make sure to leave a couple inches of paper past the bottom of the post. I then cut the four corners back to bottom then fold each flap to the bottom and staple. Then I wrap duct tape around the other end of the paper to the post. Then set in the hole and add Quickcrete post cement. Think of it as a tar paper sock for the post.
That's pretty much my take on it. One of my neighbors just got to building a fence in the front yard and wrapped the bottom with a product that would keep the water out from the bottom, but won't keep moisture from absorbing into the post and then traveling down where it can be trapped.
+gregvancom I thought of that, that's why I heavily spray on Thompson's Water Seal.
Sounds like you've done a good job and as long as you follow the maintenance requirements from the product manufacturer then you could have a fence that will last a long time. Good job and let us know what happens in the future.
+gregvancom I also wrap duct tape around where the top of the tar paper and the wood meet as to avoid water running into the sock. I'm not saying I've found the ultimate solution, but hopefully a better idea.
Well, we will see in a few years or hopefully a few decades and if you remember feel free to send us some pictures in the future if you have success.
I have a hard time using products that haven't been thoroughly time-tested and don't blame you for waiting until someone else test them out. It's actually one of the reasons why I make these videos, to inform people to stay away from things that promise more than they can deliver.
Nature always wins.
That's the first accurate statement I've read I these comments.
All of which is a very roundabout way of saying don't use concrete to set a fence post: it traps rot-inducing water against the post, and is a nightmare to remove when the bottom of the post eventually rots. Use deep-treated wood and set the post in hardcore, with at least 6" (150mm) of hardcore in the base of the hole. The water will tend to drain away from the post, giving good longevity, and when eventually it needs replacing, the task is reasonably simple.
RicktheRecorder Your the first person to make any sense Tar the post use a couple of cleats foot long opposite ways crush stone on bottom and no cement KISS. Keep it simple stupid
Always Dome you're concrete at the post base. Trowel it tight make it non porous as possible. Keep all organic matter below that concrete. You'll buy yourself 10yrs on top of the 15 the other gentleman said... And for god sakes people keep your sprinklers off your fences.. Joyous
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I received a tip to wrap the buried portion of the post with felt. It will provide a moisture barrier and increase longevity. Thoughts?
I'm not a big fan of it.
the felt will trap water
if you mean felt paper ( tar paper) then it would still not completely seal surface. Real felt is porous So, no to either of them.
To prevent rot in the concrete, should we paint the bottom 30” of the post with asphalt roofing tar to help?
I've only done it once and it rotted the post out within a year. However, I've heard "suggest" that they've had good luck doing it.
How do we prevent the 4 x 4 from rotting. Hello!
+Abad perez Don't bury them in the ground or set them below ground level in a concrete footing. Place them in a nice dry spot and protect from everything that will damage them.
I think your best bet in most soils is to make a "french drain" under the post of a foot or two of gravel with a "roof" over it of some roofing felt with a hole cut in it just enough so the post sticks down thru. This will prevent the fine dirt from washing down into the gravel obviating the drainage effect.
Most of my videos are based off of my experience in the business and I haven't found anything that would provide anyone with a guarantee. I've seen too many different types of wood posts rotting and some of these were saturated with one type of chemical or another.
I don't really think heavy duty plastic is the solution to this problem either, because it can trap water as well as keep it away. Any gap between the plastic and the wood post could allow water to seep into it and keep it there for a long period of time, allowing the post to rot even faster.
One solution to this that is on the net is simply to use galvanized steel pipes instead of wood for your posts. There are a number of companies that sell brackets which you can bolt/screw to the pipe and will hold the 2 x 4 frame to attach your pickets to. The best brackets I've seen have a lip on the bottom to hold the 2 x 4's. Otherwise they only have holes to put screws through that hold the 2 x 4's on. The screws tend to have so much pressure on them that they cause the 2x 4's to eventually crack.
For the reason stated in the video, the utility companies use our product to protect the base or under ground section of the utility pole. Our product is a close cell material that protects the under ground part of the pole from moisture and insects. Check out our video "Easiest Fastest Way to Set a Fence Post" "Fencing Made Easy" and we also show a good comparison between concrete and our product the video is "Fence Pole Testing" I think you will enjoy them. I like your video very informative.
when the posts are dry prior to installation if you stand them in a large barrel of old engine oil thinned down with diesel and creosote for 24 hours then allow to dry off for a couple of days before fitting they will probably last you out, I fitted about a hundred with this method about 30 years ago and no sign of rot yet
+mark scott THAT I believe...isnt' that basically what telephone poles are treated with?
Exactly! And the reason this is true: water doesn't cause rot at all! It's several types of fungi that actually cause rot and this methods of treatment essentially fills the woods cellular structure with a poison that the brown fungi cannot latch onto and take hold to colonize and begin eating the wood structure.
Please, old dirty rich in heavy metals motor oil? Thinned with diesel and creosote?? Don't we have enough water contamination already???? You must have a shallow well that is contaminated by this toxic cocktail nearby or some other explanation for this horrible suggestion. Maybe you have some DDT or chlordane you can soak the posts in too while you are at it . Keep them pesky insects away. Maybe some radioactive material like radium-226 so the posts glow in the dark and you can find your way home at night. And remember to put a lead cap on them to help them last longer.
My dear friend, I watched many of your videos, and in most of them you explain problems of the posts, but in them I have not found suggestions about what to do. For example: "If the soil is clay, install the post this way. If the soul is sand, install it this other way", and so on.
Best regards.
Here's a link to more videos that might not solve your problems.
www.homebuildingandrepairs.com/fences/index.html
I don't have a method to install wood posts that won't ever rot, but do have videos that will make them last a little longer if installed correctly.
Your right about moisture being the main reason but also the additives in the concrete don't help, the best solution is dig the post hole deep enough and secure the post with half house bricks and stones of various sizes (an 8-foot post should have 2 foot in the ground) you then tamp down the bricks and stones firmly until the post is solid. The bricks and stones packing below ground allow the post to remain dry and therefore lasting a lot longer (this is a tried and tested system used way back albeit they did have oak posts back then but now-a-days we have pressure treated wood which will last a long time.)
I'm not about to suggest that your idea doesn't work, but I don't think it would work as well in soils that retain a lot of moisture like clay. Areas with gravel or areas that allow moisture to travel through it easier than clay can accumulate moisture and rot the wood post.
I do agree if you have a high water table you are always fighting the elements, but water tables rise and lower, with my suggestion even in heavy clay soils the sub soil part of the post has little contact with moisture ( unless you have a high water table ) the half house bricks provide stability the stones provide a non-porous breathable area resulting in longevity for the post with the added bonus of when it is time to replace the post just remove the bricks and stones and fit new post and then replace bricks and stones no extra expense and no concrete lump to remove. Please let me know what you think.
I think the breathable area you're creating will allow water to seep into the post. Bricks also absorbs water and wet bricks in direct contact with wood will allow the lumber to absorb moisture from the bricks, eventually causing it to rot.
I install fence in Florida I never concrete line post only the gate post. I have witnessed firsthand what concreting a post will do. Rots in every dang time. I’ve been installing Fence for four years
Again, the problem I have, if I don't use the concrete is that a 6 foot tall wood fence tends to lean over time and sometimes fall down in certain soils.
Isn't there a waterproofing mix you could add to the concrete mix? That would solve the problem of concrete absorbing moisture, wouldn't it?
There might be, but water being absorbed from the concrete isn't the only problem, the wood post will actually absorb water also and if it sits inside of a concrete footing that won't allow moisture to leave, then it could be trapped and accelerate the process of wood decay.
gregvancom that's true and I'm learning a lot from watching different videos. I'm no expert and not even an amateur carpenter. I'm just throwing in ideas. How about the paint they use on boats? Would it prevent the post from absorbing moisture?
It is the swelling and shrinking of the wood that allow water to enter between the concrete and post. Concrete is porous it can be made water resistant and nearly water proof with the addition of fly ash and/or latex compounds but it will still retain some amount of moisture.
Just planted an 8' by 7" square post & hung a field gate on it. However, I put a 12" deep sump of compacted stones in the hole first, dropped another 12" of compacted stones around the bottom of the post and THEN added the concrete.
Let us know in 10 years how it's doing and keep the ideas coming, because one of these days we'll figure out what works best.
@@gregvancom Roger that. If I am still around in 10 years. Might just plant a time capsule (with photos) in the ground near the post.
Horse owner here. This is what I learned over the course of 30+ years building my own fences. If your post is in clay, it will last for a LONG time and won't need any concrete. The holes are a bear to dig by hand but the clay sure holds the posts tight. Sandy soil is easy to dig but will hold water around your post and your post will rot quick! Concrete overall is a BIG waste of money since water pools on top of the concrete and rots the post there!
I would love to know where you're located? I'm located in Southern California and have had problems with the wood post setting in a concrete footing rotting and fence posts leaning and falling down when they weren't.
Hi, I live in Gloucester, Virginia, near the coast where we have either sand or thick red clay once you dig down. My horse'fences here are now 30 years old and still standing but I have a feeling that they are all going to start going within the next 5 or so years. The one's I set in concrete have long rotted and I learned my lesson to forgo it around here. Interesting enough I have removed a fence line that was up for 30 years and actually pulled up perfectly good posts that I have used again on another fence. I noticed that anything that survives that long was always in clay soil.
so is better do it w/o concrete just whit rocks?
I just made a new video that might be helpful. ua-cam.com/video/qzSbhfrIRgY/v-deo.html
Please Help. I had a "modern" wood mailbox made/installed (NOT made using a typical mailbox post) 3 years ago. It quickly started to rot at the base. I thought maybe it wasn't primed/painted properly and have had it "repaired" 3 times in 3 years. This is an expensive handmade mailbox structure (but the guy obviously didnt know how to install it). Made with exterior plywood. It is 21" wide (horizontally) and 4" depth (horizontally) and 5 feet tall. It's a tall skinny wooden rectangular tower, pillar, wall - like box with the actual mailbox attached to the front of it 3/4 of the way up the structure. It was set in concrete and the concrete is 2" above ground and has no slope. The wood was not allowed to dry before he painted it. The structure has only been painted above ground. Underground (in the concrete) is raw wood. I live in the deep south. Should I dig up the "clay" dirt and add sand all around the concrete? Can a concrete slope be added on top of the concrete base? All suggestions are welcomed. In short, wood rooting at the base of the structure. The concrete base is raised 2" above ground and does NOT have a slope away from the structure. I'm glad to send photos if that would make it easier. Thank you!
+Bev Cotton You can send pictures, but what about using a metal post? I don't think I would replace it with wood if it only lasted three years.
+gregvancom
Thank you greg for your reply. I don't see where to upload a photo of my mailbox problem. Anyway, I'm not willing to remove my somewhat new and expensive wood mailbox for a metal one at this time. I'm just trying to find a "band aid" for it. I think I'm going to cover it with cedar slats.
You can visit our website for contact information. A link to the website can be found at our UA-cam main channel.
The problem isn't just water. Logs get ponded and sunk for decades without rot. Rot is a product of (1) bacteria in the air feeding on (2) wet wood during (3) warm temperatures.
Here's my practice/ideology:
Post rot happens during warmer weather when bacteria is most active. Water from the ground is sucked into the concrete, then the dry post sucks it up toward the surface. The first few inches above the concrete stay moist all Summer long. The rest of the post stays relatively dry from the warm air. So to eliminate the water from the bottom, seal the post with automotive undercoating. A good 6" above the concrete looks nice.
The top of the post is also subjected to a fair amount of moisture as rain will pond on top. A light mist of the same undercoating and a cap take care of that.
The rest of the post should be sealed in a petroleum based stain. This will minimize any other source of water from entering the post, as well as make for an unfavorable environment for the bacteria.
These are fairly cost effective steps but won't matter unless you prestain the rest of the fence components.
Would you build a house and not caulk or paint it? Or restore a car without replacing the window seals? So why the hell would anyone spend thousands of dollars on a new fence, rot proof the posts, then let the rest of it grey out and rot?
So why do I recommend prestaining opposed to staining after it's build?
The ends of the 2x4, the back side where the slates attach, as well as the bottom ends of the slates are going to be next to impossible to get any stain on once assembled. And you can bet water/bacteria will find its way into these areas with little chance of wind/sun to dry them out. For about $150 in stain you'll double the life of the whole fence and I guarantee it will look far more impressive then having it grey out in less than 2 years. I like to sell the idea to my clients line this.. An untreated/stained fence board is like a car with watercolor for paint. Would you be ok with your car paint dripping off everytime it rains? Because that's what Cedar fence boards do if not stained.