i wish i could have explained that situation as well as you have Stuart, spot on . as a speed R owner i have watched in despair as Triumph have inflated their prices saying its a premium product . They have totally lost touch with the people who were buying these bikes. i was at my local dealer last week having a service , chatting away and the salesman saying how many cancellations of Triumphs he has had nothing to do with the virus thing but all to do with the moving to Thailand thing . Another so called british company going to the wall ?, great video as always .
Your not the first to tell me this Simon but thanks for the confirmation that its still ongoing. there was a huge influx of such comments when Triumph first mentioned they were moving everything to Thailand!
@@stuartfillingham Triumph Products are priced exorbitantly here in India Model Name Rs. to. Pound 1. SpeedTwin. 946,000. 9847 2. T120. 997,600. 10382.25 3. T100. 887,400 9235.38 4. Scrambler. 1,07,3000. 11166 1200 5.Scrm(800) 855,000. 8898 6.Street twn 745,000. 7753 7.Thrxton1200. 1,215,800. 13278 8. Bobber 1,028,200 10701 9.speedmstr. 1,133,700. 11799 10.rockt3r. 1,800,000 18734 11. ST 3 RS 1,113,000. 11584 12. Tigr800xca. 1,516,700. 15784 14 tiger1200. 1,700,000 17693 All are in Exshowroom indian prices add a 200,000rs plus as insurance n road tax to this vehicle price... You will be jaw dropped... Other brands like Kawasaki , Benelli, sells bikes half this price!!
@@jj_infotainment Situation is not that different in the UK. Would you buy a T100 for £8900 or a RE Interceptor 650 for £5600? Most potential buyers voted with their wallets and went for the Royal Enfield, those 650 twins have literally smashed the core base of Triumphs bonneville range.
And i love mike busbys response. RE residuals here in australia are falling through the floor. Triumps profits are increasing. RE lost over 20% of sales before the pandemic hit. Go figure.
@@garyvesper9647 Yeah the falling sales thing is reported to have been due to the domestic market holding on for the latest emmisions regulation ready bikes to be released. all Indian manufacturers experienced a similar drop in sales. also RE were selling around 800,000 bikes a year but the bullet based models sales dropped as the new twins were introduced which they did expect. as for residual values dropping. I wish they would here so I can snap up a bargain continental GT.
If the Bonneville was still 650cc and made in Britain, I would love to have one. I am 62 and I don't want a 1,200cc bike. I don't want a lot of gadgets. I just want a simple bike.
@@thomasfrank280 To this day, I still consider the 650 to be the perfect size. The engine has enough power to get out on the highway and roll with the traffic in the high speed lanes. It has enough torque to make around town a pleasure. The weight of the bike is manageable in the driveway, parking lots, around town and in stop and go traffic.
@@thomasfrank280 I was just thinking about what I would want and not want in a bike. I grew up racing motocross in the early to mid 70s. I did all my own tuning and wrench pulling at 14 years old. On race day, my bike was ready to perform. I want carbs (so I can change jets), analog gauges, a stiff frame, good suspension, a reliable power plant, and great brakes. I will take electronic ignition over points, just for the better spark power and reliability. I don't want electronic fuel injection, ABS, traction control, rider modes, fancy gauges that I can't see in bright sunlight, or computers that can't handle me changing to pod filters and replacing the exhaust without reprogramming. Basically, my 1981 KZ650. I loved that bike.
I'm 71 and drive a T100 Bonneville. 900cc, and it's perfect. I see no need for the T120 1200cc and never understood the price difference for a larger bore and stroke. (and an additional front disc brake). How does a larger bore and stroke add so much to the retail price between the 900 and 1200 when the two bikes are otherwise identical?
Spot on Stuart, you only have to look at Royal Enfield’s Interceptor’s success to see what the customers really want, and it’s not a bloated machine stuffed full of electronics.
@john harris Electronic components are there because of emissions. It is not possible to produce a vehicle propelled by an ICE for use anywhere now. You may not like that, but it's a fact. It is also illegal to interfere with it in any way. Amal carbs were wonderful 50 years ago. But just think for one moment, if you or one of your family has a respiratory problem and there are people like you circumventing the very laws that are meant to protect us.
@john harris That is quite funny to hear the Bullet 500 has too many electronics. I know what you mean though I''d rather rejet a carb than mess about with a laptop myself.
STEVE PALMER (and others above) Fine if it works, Steve. Hell if it doesn’t, as in this case. How long will it be before we ship the generation of electricity to Third World countries so they choke on our lust for “clean energy”? Les in UK
I'm a Yank with a Performance Shop that specializes in the Harley Dyna Superglide, and as a Engineer, I truly LOVE the modern TRIUMPH motorcycle. That being said, here's a analogy, Imagine Ducati made in China? Exactly, it doesn't work. TRIUMPHS made in Thailand only satisfies the accounting department. The same department with the bulldozer knocking the company down into the ground. SAD.
Harley's sold in the USA are made in the USA, Those made in India do not come back into the USA. Does it matter? To many people it does. Triumph tried to mimic HD's business model. HD business model doesn't even actually work for HD in that they make a lot of their money off of Branding and clothing etc... Triumph isn't even close to being HD in that arena and now its coming to a head.
Let’s hope it’s just a rough patch and that they can weather the storm. They may not be perfect, but the biking marketplace would be a poorer place without Triumph in it.
Triumph is another company that dont listen to what the outsiders want to ride, like in the USA most of us want a light weight twin inline with the muffler under the bike and not under our leg and no big stupid looking giant muffler sticking up anywhere under our seat. We want torque and some rpm to play with also 4 gal fuel tank so we can go 200 miles on a tank of fuel, its a long ways between fuel stations in Texas./
Last year I started to be interested again in buying a new motorcycle. After 27 year of not driving one. I was looking for a classic appearance not so much in high tech and horsepower. I found out that Triumph motorcycles start at around 10.000 €. Then Christmas evening 2019 happened. We had a party with the family and I had nice talk to someone who's friend was tuning and hardening Royal Enfields. In January I took a look at the Royal Enfield Website and I was falling in love with the Interceptor 650. "This one looks like the old Bonneville!", i said to myself. At the end of of January I went to the dealer and bought one without test drive. Reasons: 1. It looks great. 2. It was affordable. (It's already paid!) 3. It's not high tech without that electronic toys nobody needs. 4. All the tests on UA-cam told me that this is a motorcycle to have fun with. 5. Pure riding with a honest motorcycle. Now, 3 Month and 6.200 kms later on that Interceptor 650 I'm happy with my Interceptor 650 and I always have a smile on my face, when I ride it. Conclusion: No need for an expensive Triumph for me!
I am 76 and have been riding for 56 years and have never been without a ride. Sold a large heavy bike a few months ago and thought maybe I should just give up ridding. Guess what ? I bought a 2012 Kymco Like 200 i actually 164 cc and 11.5 hp. And another guess what. Never take the freeway and stay on roads the are for the most part 45 mph and I am having a blast with this tiny low horse power light scooter. Never in my wildest dreams had I thought I would ever own a scooter. The thing is, it meets my needs gets 75 mpg. Life is always changing and discover that fun is where one finds it.
I couldn’t agree more on both the model lineup,and moving production to Thailand. I bought a Royal Enfield Interceptor for $5299 vs.$12999 for Triumph Bonne 1200 here in US
Rich Phillips is it really absurd? Is there a 1:1 relationship between engine displacement and satisfaction? Does cost barrier to entry not matter? Seems to me if you want to grow your customer base into the future, you need to attract NEW riders. i.e. younger, less experienced, often less net wealth, usually less sure about spending more money for more power, etc. To new riders in particular, this comparison is not absurd. I’m a “millennial” (ugh) who just bought my first bike. I’ve wanted a Bonneville since I was a kid. Instead I bought an Interceptor...and the decision was not difficult. If Triumph and Harley want to sell more bikes to younger & new riders, as they claim, they’d do well to offer more options for people who do not think these considerations are absurd.
Same here, and I am in the UK. Triumph lost it and the last extravagant t3000 is their white elephant. I ride a Benelli, a Guzzi and an Enfield, you just can't beat those on value, legacy, design..... Triumph committed suicide with their electronic bonnies
So true! I sold my last Triumph in -16 and that was a Legend 900cc with Speed Triple camshafts. No gadgets, no electronics, no ridingmodes. Just me and the bike. I've often looked at Triumph's since but the distance between me and the Triumph bikes are just growing. I bought a Honda CB650R for £11500. The Street Twin is £18100 here in Denmark. Same price as a HD 883 Iron. A Royal Enfield Interceptor 650 costs £10000. (heavy pricing is due to taxation)
This videos comments are spot on. I've purchased 4 new Triumphs over the past 20 years, I've been happy with every one, BUT I didnt buy any if them because they were the best bike, I bought them because they were made in England, even though they were considerably more expensive than the competition. Triumph shifting production to Thailand had taken away that reason, so my past 2 purchases have been Japanese, better bikes, and far cheaper. Triumph has consistently put 2 fingers up at its target market, playing on it being a British product despite being made in the far east. I'm not the only one who feels like this. My mates that I ride with were ALL Triumph 10 years ago, now its 1. The company is doing exactly what M&S did, in chasing quick profits they have p**sed off their target market and MOST IMPORTANTLY they have forgotten what made them successful. The writing is on the wall
Stuart, I have a restored 1965 Triumph TR6SR that’s identical to the one I bought, still in the crate, back in 1965 when I was in high school. Of all the motorcycles I’ve had those two 1965 Triumphs were the most fun to ride because they were light, comfortable, nimble and with plenty power to carry a passenger at highway speeds all day long. And they are absolutely beautiful machines. Last year Triumph introduced the Speed Twin and I bought one. The design and build quality of that bike is absolutely top notch. It is also light, comfortable, nimble and has twice the power of the 1965 bikes which makes it just as much fun to ride as the old bikes. Sure, it has MUCH better brakes, a 6 speed transmission, a fuel gauge, fuel injection, ride modes, a USB port to power my smart phone for navigation, and two beautiful analog clocks. I don’t hold any of that against it and actually appreciate having all these features. Now I agree that Triumph has a dizzying number of models right now with all the various Bonneville offerings and the many adventure bikes and sporty triples. That’s a lot of variety for the dealers to manage and the customers to consider. Hopefully they can trim all that variety to the best selling models. It seems that could help lower the prices somewhat too. Fewer models, fewer parts, easier manufacturing.
I would think that when you look at them, there is a fairly good range of models to suit different riders, except in cheaper commuter type bikes, but that there is a very large range of configurations of the basic models. Considering that it seems few people do any serious spanner work, it is a good way for customers to have a bike "individually" to their specs. It means Tiumph need a short lead time on new bikes, which could be arranged by doing final assembly in the country of sale. For used, it inevitably means a dealer does need a large floor/quick access to other dealers stock in order to attract a wider range of customers. Hasn't that always been the case? Quite a few othe manufacturers have an even larger range of models, including cheaper commuters etc.
I live in Thailand and bought a new speed twin assembled here last year. I love the bike, the quality and the service. Not cheap but solid in every way
@@bobz1736 been saying that for years to those "ride only American" types. If you take everything out of your Harley that's not made in America, it won't run. Same with Indian, as you say, and most other brands. I bought a Hyosung (S. Korea) and I'm very happy with it. I think it's time to get over where it's assembled and just enjoy the bike!
@@Section9.P.S Another Thailand resident here, not a Triumph owner now although my last UK bike was a 675 Daytona. Price of Speed Twin on Triumph's UK website is 'from £10,700'. Same bike quoted as 'from 576,000 ฿' on the Thailand website. That's equivalent to £14,500 at current exchange rates.
@@HarleyFirestorm I do see what you mean and you make a valid point. But, let me make a point as well: If you know the industrious Thai people I am pretty sure they can build very good motorbikes. So, having a motorbike built in Thailand isn't necessarily bad.
I’m in Australia and the iconic Australian car manufacturer Holden that had made Holden cars here since the 40’s decided a couple of years ago to start importing their top selling commodore and close the Aussie factory. The public utterly rejected Holden after that and very soon the company will be no more.
Yep and the Aussie government gave them and Ford all that aid to keep them in Australia and all they did was send that money overseas to the parent companies. Fuck Holden and Ford .Aussie taxpayers got screwed for hundreds of millions. I was a third generation Ford owner but would never buy Ford or Holden ever again .
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Really hate to hear that mate. When they were going great guns I interviewed from Ohio. Withdrew my candidacy. Saw things go downhill and was glad I was still home and not being laid off overseas.
I’ve been saying exactly your points Stuart for a few years now. I’ve owned a fair few triumphs but like many other “ older “ riders was no longer bothers about max BHP & ever increasing electronics. Loved the look of the thruxton R when it came out , so took a test ride. Loved the bike but couldn’t justify 12k for something I only use on sunny sundays . I now have a new interceptor 650 at less than half the price of the triumph, I love the Royal Enfield, it’s not fast, but so what, it’s got loads of character & makes me smile 👌
I have owned 3 Triumphs. The first was a 1970 Daytona 500, the 2nd was a 1972 Trident, and finally my 2002 Speed Triple. That 1970 Daytona is the reason that I was never really attracted to the "new" Bonnevilles. They seem too heavy compared to that little bike. The Trident was a fun bike, but it had many issues, both the usual electrical gremlins and mechanical failures. That Trident did have a lovely sound and remembering that sound lead me to my Speed Triple. It is now 18 years old with 87,000 miles. I love the sound, it has been reliable and durable. This past winter I rebuilt the suspension and adjusted the valves, actually, only one valve needed shimming. That is the first adjustment the valves have required. I think it is important to recognize how much better the current Triumphs are in every regard than the classic motorcycles of the past. They are fast reliable, durable, well engineered, and competitive with anything on the market. I also own a 2015 KTM SuperDuke, (and many other bikes over the years) so I have a basis for comparison. Triumph has achieved deserved reputation for building quality motorcycles. Should the Bonneville line be more like the Royal Enfield Interceptor? Maybe, but I bet Triumph couldn't build them in the UK and match Royal Enfield asking price. Personally I like the Street Triple. As I get older I feel the need for a lighter motorcycle. Not necessarily slower or simpler. I appreciate electronic aids such as anti-lock brakes and the most wonderful of them all, heated grips. The Street Triple and the KTM 790 both fit the bill. I don't have nostalgia for the way things used to be. I remember breaking down in the middle of nowhere and having to use my mechanical skills to get home. The need to constantly adjust your valves, chasing seemingly endless oil leaks, chasing electrical gremlins, fixing broken brackets caused by vibration, etc. It makes a good story to tell your grand kids but really, at this stage of my life I would just prefer to ride. Maybe on a Street Triple.
As a fan of Triumphs in general & Bonnies in particular, I find this a little heartbreaking. I've loved & lusted after Bonnevilles since the first one I saw in a drive-in in 1968. I just sold my 2007 Bonnie, the last year without fuel injection. I loved it, and hated to give it up, but my health has gotten where I couldn't hold it up anymore. Even though I was aware the new bikes from the 90's weren't the same as the 60's versions, at least they made a lot of effort to retain the popular Triumph styling, and my 2007 Bonnie was obviously inspired by the old bikes, didn't look that much different than a '68 Bonnie side by side. A lot of the info you shared in this video was news to me, and unfortunately, made me a bit sad. From the time I was old enough to ride, until I was too old to ride, Triumph was the quintessential motorcycle in my mind, and always represented to me what motorcycling was all about.
Hi Stuart, I was in conversation yesterday with a man from Hinkley who told me that Triumph were / are storing unsold machines in any available space due to vanishing sales. We agreed that perhaps Triumph had misjudged the ability of competitors ( Royal Enfield ) to out perform in the market place. Very informative video. Thanks as always. Bye bye Triumph?
Very sad to hear your update on the Triumph situation, they ARE an iconic brand, they ARE a British company and John Bloor had done a brilliant job in bringing the marque to a class leading position, they deserve our support, fingers crossed they can come through this.
Add me...love my 2017 T120 (which I bought in part due to Stuart's videos)...10000 trouble free miles and just now replacing the rubber. Best wishes to Triumph. We're all a work in progress.
I would love to give them my support, but these exorbitant prices are certainly not helping me to buy British and get a Thai maschine for my UK Pounds.
Triumph's beginnings were not exactly British as Triumph was founded in Coventry by two German immigrants from Nuremberg named Siegfried Bettmann and Moritz Schulte. Bettmann wanted to start a company to build bicycles for the masses. At that time German workers were paid more than Bettmann wanted to pay, so he moved to Coventry in England where wages were lower and he could build his bicycles cheaper and sell them at a more competitive price. Bettmann chose the brand name "Triumph" because the word is recognised all over the world no matter which language is spoken. Bettmann's Coventry built Triumph bicycles sold so well that he opened a second factory in his hometown of Nuremberg. To avoid confusion with the Coventry built Triumph brand, Bettmann used the TWN brand for the German built Triumph's. TWN stood for Triumph Werke Nuremberg, eventually both factories started producing motorcycles, the Coventry factory in 1902 and the Nuremberg factory in 1903. TWN built the popular split single 2-stroke 200cc "Cornet" and the 350cc "Boss" models, the German factory ceased motorcycle production in 1957 in favour of making Adler typewriters. TWN became part of Adler in 1956. By having their motorcycles built in Thailand the current Triumph marque are doing the same thing that Bettmann did in 1885 when he founded the original Triumph factory, getting their products built where labour costs are cheaper than in their home country. BMW are having their single cylinder machines built in China, as are the Chinese owned Benelli marque. Even Harley-Davidson are planning to have their new range of 338cc motorcycles built in China by Qiangjiang, Benelli's parent company. These H-D's will be based on Benelli's current BN250 model. Most of the electrical system on my 2011 XL883N "Iron" were manufactured in China.
Maybe they haven't learned from the old company,that you can't take your customers for granted? Oh they won't care where it's made,or that it costs more than the competition? We'll just cover it with the British flag,and it'll be ok! That's what I think? The reason I ride a Triumph is because it's a great bike,and made in England!(even tho I'm Welsh☺)
Norton went burst due to not doing what triumph did by moving manufacturing or any other thing. So your point is useless. Triumph just like any other company that's trying to stay afloat while Norton did nothing.
I bought a 2014 speed triple in the limited edition Caspian sea blue new off the show room floor for $10,500 US spring of 2015. I will never buy another bike. it's one of the best true riding experiences I've ever had, abs is the only tech on the bike... No traction control, wheelie control, quick shifter. just you and a sublime chassis, brilliant brakes, and a torquey engine with plenty of power up top if you want it. And I'm 25... Triumph have simply not released a bike that would even come close to parting me with my speed at the prices they're asking these days.
This is an excellent video and thank you very much for it. As a Yank, whose friend just bought a Tiger 900 Rally GT, I can say we thought long and hard about this purchase. The Triumph offered a lot of value for money. It seemed the best choice relative to the other offerings from Honda, BMW and KTM. This issue of authenticity (in the US we are obsessed with Harley-Davidson) is an interesting one. I think most commentators would argue that Harley's base customer is the one that ensured its difficulties, if not demise. This customer base has insisted Harley not stray far from its roots as the market changed mightily. Young folks are simply different from older folks, yet nostalgia is a powerful pull. How to appeal to it with integrity? Yes, Triumph may have made a fatal error in producing quintessential models like the Bonneville in Thailand, but those looking for Adventure bikes and other niches wouldn't be so fussed. Thanks for the food for thought.
When I found out the new Rocket was made in Thailand. That was it for me and when the news about moving the production. I traded in the Triumph and gone back to Japanese much better value and not pretending to be something they are not.
The current trend world wide in most business, in most areas, is that they arent in touch with their customers. They spend millions of dollars in marketing departments that fail the mark by kilometres, because they want money and follow the profit goal above all, making the company the primary goal instead of properly attending their customer needs. I owned 5 triumphs before leaving the brand, and I did it because the prices for everything grew and grew without delivering anything that different. Because as you said, all I wanted was a good, reliable, middle class, stylish metal machine that could go places.
Well another thing which is quite amazing about Enfields and is mostly uncovered is the reliability they offer. Being from India, I have been riding Enfields almost for 15 years. And the bike is so well put together that it just goes on and on. I have myself put on more than 100000 kms on my RE500 Classic and still no signs of lethargy in the motorcycle. And also considering the Indian roads it's almost obvious that the bike will almost last forever in the UK. Cheers!
Amazing Rishabh! I was admiring the Enfields at high altitudes in Nth Eastern India, negotiating dusty pot holed tracks and roads I would never try on my bikes. They seem unbreakable.
I agree, I got my hand on the ONLY Classic 500 Pegasus in the Republic of Ireland last year. I actually got it for the looks and the emotional factor because my very first bike (30 years ago) was an Indian made Bullet 350 (and my dad drove one too). I was prepared for the old Bullet 350 experience that while they can last forever - you need to know your way around the engine and feel comfortable to deal with the amount of maintenance needed and a few times I had found myself replacing a head gasket by the side of the road - almost any issue could be addressed while on the go. I was rather shocked to find that my new RE didn't leak oil and is extremely reliable - testament to the 10.000 miles I did on her in one year - the only issue I encountered with the bike is a flat tire. I prefer to ride my bike on the Irish back roads which in some areas can definitely compete with Indian roads :) It is how I decided on the name for my bike: "Badger", because no matter what weather, potholes, dirt track or even going through a field, Badger doesn't give a f*ck :)
I was dead set on a Triumph, wound up spending LESS on a Moto Guzzi V7 III once I discovered the brand. I guess it's safe to say Guzzis are the most authentic and true-to-history European motorcycle makers, Ducati being just behind them.
Good video I'm not surprised that triumph are struggling as I tried to purchase a new bike in June from triumph Stratford-upon-Avon and was as welcome as covid 19! So I went to Ducati Aylesbury, wow! What a difference with their attertude, i purchased a new Mutistrada 950s and am very please with it. so thanks Triumph you done me a favour..👍
I purchased a Bonneville in 2001. I still own that bike. One of the main reason for buying it was not only did it look good, it was British made.................
I have owned 4 Hinckley Triumphs. First, a 2001 Bonnie, then a 2006 Bonnie. Moved to a Sprint GT because the Bonnies, while great bikes, just weren't suitable for covering the long distances here in Western Australia - more fuel range issue, than power. I have recently traded the GT on a 2014 Tiger Sport which ticks my boxes of comfort, height, range etc. I have also ridden a T120 and a Thruxton and enjoyed them both, but am not keen on the 270 degree crank. It may be smoother, but they don't sound or feel like a real British twin. Having said that, I'd love a Speed Twin but the price here is near $20, 500 on the road. They are a far superior bike as far as quality goes but are a lot more expensive than my "old" Bonnies. Despite being born in England and attending primary school 10 miles from the Hinckley factory, I like Triumphs for how they make me feel, rather than their country of origin - the fact that it's now Thailand doesn't bother me as a large proportion of 4-wheelers on Aussie roads are also made there. seemingly without problems.
@@Steve-pf7jl They've now gone and done it with some of the triples cranks! Gone is the 120° crank with an even 1-3-2 firing order that goes all the way back to the BSA/Triumph threes. For 2020 it's now a 90°crank with a 1-3-2 firing. Going by published road tests it appears to be yet another (completely unnecessary) change that alters the whole character and feel of the bike!
Let's not forget Royal Enfield"s 100 million Pound investment in an R&D centre in the UK. Entirely designed in the UK and built abroad; makes Royal Enfield as British as Triumph at half the price. I also hear RE are hoovering up disillusioned Triumph design engineers.
I owned a Bonneville T100 2019 as my first "big bike", it was nice and all but just after a few months I find rust on the rear shocks and also on the wheels in certain places (Please note I always had my motorcycle under covers when parked). The brakes made annoying sounds. Maybe I am being picky but I paid a lot of money for that motorcycle and expected better. I was not convinced with the quality. Later on I decided to upgrade to a ~1200cc engine, test rode T120, Speed Twin and RNineT and eventually bought the RNineT. The quality is another level on the BMW. Personally, it doesn't bother me if they are made in Thailand but for real... putting all the flags everywhere and selling a british icon that is made in Thailand is just absurd.
Sorry to hear about the quality issues you have with BonnevilleT100. The squeaky sound of its braking system you talked about is well known if you did some research on the internet before you bought it. Triumph is a nice bike, but if you want bullet-proof quality you need to go for Japanese bikes.
Sad to see what’s happening to Triumph. Apparently they decided to follow Harley’s lead. Right into the dustbin. Both brands will probably be around but owned by whom ? Harley’s dirty little secret is that a major portion of its parts are manufactured in China, shipped to a front company in the USA then assembled in Pennsylvania. Yes, it is made in America but with many foreign components. The new CEO thinks that concentrating on the large touring models which produce the largest profit will save the company. Forward into the past. Neither company is inspiring confidence.
Not being English (I'm Irish), I can't say I mind where Triumph builds their motorcycles; if they were an Irish ride, but built in (random choice) India, I don't think I'd mind. I do think Royal Enfield tries to be a 'British' motorcycle, in appearance and style, if not with as many Union Jacks, though I suppose the lower price tag makes that more palatable; said lower price tag isn't much lower than Triumph over here, though. Here in Canada (and North America in general), Triumphs cost less than most Harleys or Indians, the other major 'classic' makers in this part of the world; Harley is in pretty massive trouble right now, far worse than what you describe about Triumph (FortNine covered it just last week), whereas Triumph is still doing OK over here. For my money, I appreciate what Triumph offers, compared to other 'heritage' brands that put an even higher premium on 'paying for the name'. That doesn't excuse Triumph's issues, but I think short of companies making much cheaper (or simply far more) motorcycles, few companies are doing 'well' right now - the same goes for the auto industry, where car prices far exceed what most people can readily afford. Perhaps this is less a Triumph issue, and more an automotive industry in general issue? Cheers for the thoughtful video!
As ive been reporting for over 3 years Daniel Triumph were not in tune with their customers They've been going down hill for just over 3 years now, the Pandemic was simply the trigger.
@@stuartfillingham Can't agree, can't disagree. I think a lot of it has to do with geographic location. Next to the dumpster-fire that is Harley Davidson, Triumph looks brilliant. I'll agree with costs concerns about them, though... but I'm hard-pressed to find an alternative. BMW's usually cost more. Royal Enfield costs less, but stamped gear shifters and tin-can silencers, with wired-based throttle? Maybe it's a generation gap - I'm in my mid-thirties, I don't long for the days of old rides; I own a DMC-12 DeLorean sports car, I've got enough 'old vehicle' problems. I do appreciate your perspective - you've got a lot more experience seeing Triumph than I do.
@@stuartfillingham Have you seen the mess Harley Davidson is in, by the way? What is it with most (exclusively) motorcycle-making companies these days that they can't seem to keep themselves functional? Remarkable, really.
But Daniel, it's not a matter of you being Irish not caring about the value of the "Made in Britain" moniker, it's the fact that the manufacturer was trying to obfuscate the location of the manufacturing site. If my requirement for a product was that is made in outer Mongolia and a company was trying to lead me to believe the item I was about to purchase from them was made there, I would be rightly miffed if I later found out it was made in Clapham.
Motorcycling's problem is its demographic. The average age of enthusiasts in this video is about 55, with a good percentage well north of that age. The Anglophone market for Harleys and Triumphs is frankly, dying off. The future of motorcycle manufacturing will be in areas where they are still popular, like India. If they deign to make models for Sunday riders and bike polishers in Britain, we should count ourselves fortunate.
Borderlands: It’s not that I disagree, but here’s the rub. As an ol’fart motorcyclist fifty years in the running, it’s only been the last decade or so after my retirement that I’ve had the time and money to buy products that weren’t related to my family’s food, shelter and entertainment. During that decade I’ve bought three new and one almost new motorcycles. So yeah, I do believe Triumph has to consider - but not be driven by - my demographic.
years ago you could avoid tax by importing parts rather than a complete bike as per Slater Brothers and Laverda, Bloor better get production back in UK
The over use of the union flag ( to give it its proper moniker) by Triumph makes me miffed , almost bordering on quite cross ! Perhaps it's to keep the customer all dewy eyed with nostalgia so you can't see the price tag until it's too late ? It's similar to seeing BMW built Mini's that have a full range of union flag accessories fill our roads although I believe they are built in the UK? Is that all we've become a nostalgia theme park for foreign brands to trade on our past ? How pathetic we've become 😞
BMW do indeed do the same thing with the mini. The really curious thing however, is that Triumph is originally a German brand, being first produced near Berlin by herr Guttmann. Original German triumphs could still be seen at the motorcycle museum near Bad Oynerhausen, run by Jorg Rust, who was a former mechanic to Dieter Braun. In my time with Avon Tyres I was privileged to meet him and tour the museum. I am not sure if it is still there. This seemingly make the current hypocrisy of Union Jack waving even more annoying
I'm afraid it's been like that for a decades already. As the economist and broadcaster Evan Davis once put it 'Britain has become the butler to the world'.
Good work Stuart. I thought it was just me who thought Triumph were in trouble. I also agree as I have said on my videos that Royal Enfeild filled a huge gap with the 650s that Triumph were always and still missing. A decade from now will they still be here?? Moving production to Thailand makes sense for that reason , but they will have to stop leaning on the whole "British bike" thing if that's the case. Keep up the good work. Thanks E.R
Sort of. Except that they won't capture much of the Asian market unless they make cheap utility bikes in the 50 to as much as 200cc range that are reliable and have many crossover parts to older models.
@@Gilespargiter Agreed, but I expect they think they are above that unfortunately. They are trying to go to the top of the market and leaving their main genre and loyal following behind all four the sake of chasing high figures.
Another corporation that has chased the cheap labour and friendly taxation to sunnier climes. These are not British bikes now and should cost much less than they do.
Stuart, I respect your opinions in this video and the comments by fellow subscribers. But as I'm a Speed Triple RS owner I bought it purely on it's appeal on it's looks, performance and how it makes you the rider feel when you take it out for a spin or even just to pop your head into the garage to have a look at her. It's a sad time to see manufacturing leave it's homeland but that seems to be a current norm for most companies over the last 40 years. Royal Enfield weathered the storm and have survived through it all. As an ex pat living in Oz I still see my bike as a beautiful piece of engineering. Fingers crossed people will still buy Triumphs for their looks etc. After all isn't that why we all became bikers? Cheers from Melbourne. 👍
What a fantastic summary of the situation. Triumph sold out on the very thing that they had been trading on for years "their Britishness" Very well explained Stuart.
I'm still angry at Triumph for not making the Trophy any longer.It is great bike as I have 30k on my 2014 model.When it comes time for a new one I'll have to look at another brand.
Your absolutely on the button with this video Stuart. You understand the British motorcycling public very well and encapsulated Triumphs position perfectly.
I’ve owed 3 triumph Bonneville and beat the Hell out of them. They never disappoint and always kickass. All pre 2005. Triumph has made some awesome stuff.
I bought a 2019 Bonneville speedmaster ..it’s my 13th bike in life and my 3rd Bonneville .. I was a little concerned about being made in Thailand but , I bought one anyway and I’m glad I did .. it’s a well made bike .. I don’t care where it’s made only that it’s well made .. it’s the perfect bike for the price ..
Why buy a made in Thailand overpriced bike when you can buy a cheaper, more reliable, and made in Japan Japanese bikes? Its a no brainer. Also when I went to MCN most of the bikers there were hovering in their 50s. I'm in my late 20s and it's sad to see how this is a dying culture.
@ikra It's even sadder for us long time riders who experienced the haydays of the '70s when every teenager owned a Honda CB350 and the CB750 was a huge bike that everyone looked up to. Damn, I wish I still had my Kawasaki Z1-R.
Shame - I hope they pull back. I just bought a Triumph (Speed Twin) - first one I've ever had. I bought it simply because I wanted a twin cylinder naked bike with plenty of accessible (i.e. low-mid range) grunt, good handling and not too much weight. Not much in that market really - came down to Triumph or Ducati and I liked the Triumph better. If Honda were to put their Africa Twin motor in a roadster frame I imagine that would be a serious contender too (not least because it would almost certainly be cheaper), as would KTM if only they could get away from their star-wars design . In short I bought the bike on its own merits and would happily do so again.
I must admit that I was somewhat surprised when I drove past the massive brand new Triumph factory , on my way out of Bangkok about 10 yrs ago . I really don't care where they are made but you should not blame import duties for the high prices of the British market bikes . Australia has a free trade agreement with Thailand , and Triumphs are just as expensive here. Vehicle manufacturers have been moving to Thailand for years , most of the Japanese car brand's ( and Ford's )small car and pick up ranges are produced there . Why ? Because they offer low cost , high quality manufacturing . The reason I baulk at buying Thai built vehicles , 2 or 4 wheeled , is that I can buy a Hilux (for example) in Thailand for half the price I would pay in Australia . I know that there are other factors involved , but I feel that to a large extent that my wallet is being gouged . Triumph pays no local (Thai) duties on the bikes they export from Thailand but are hit with massive duties for any bikes they sell into the Thai market so a Triumph is just as expensive in Thailand as in OZ or the UK. When a company goes the low cost manufacturing route and passes the savings on to their customers , it's a good thing . Triumph has gone the other way , and any savings they have made have gone straight onto their bottom line or onto marketing themselves as a "premium" brand. I still love the bikes , but I will never buy.a new one .
My last two bikes have been Triumph, and they are awesome, I love the brand. I would pay a premium to support the British brand, but now I as likely to by Triumph, as I am any other brand. Other companies are doing the same, Kriga have been made in Germany for a number of years.
With snowflakes introducing even more ethanol into our petrol the establishment is trying to kill off traditional motorcycles anyway in Europe. Not built in the UK is a massive put off for street cred and purchasers. Bad move Triumph!
@Bob moving out of England doesn't mean fake, then going by the same reasoning nike and adidas too would be fake, because they are made in vietnam, indonesia, philipines or malaysia
last year when I bought my continental GT the dealership was full of Bonneville trade ins from owners who had jumped over to Royal Enfield. The dealer reckoned he had, had more Triumphs traded in that month than he had seen in the last 5 years. I knew then that Triumph was headed for hard times.
I am an old rider from the land down under and have a 1200 Speedmaster and loving it! I don't care where it is made as long as quality control is present.
Your correct uncle Stu ,a british marque with a Thai flag . I have a german table saw the sticker on the side says made in Taiwan. At the end of the day it is greed that drive these companies and that will be their downfall.
It’s actually commercial reality. Just about everything we use daily is partially or wholly outsourced. It’s the quality of oversight that counts and Triumph has done well in this regard.
To those that are blissfully unaware that we now live in a global economy, things are often made elsewhere . A BMW made in Vietnam is still a BMW. The build quality is excellent on the T-120 and I’ve owned mine since 2016. And yes, it’s assembled in Thailand. As for the price point, they’re probably about where they should be and you could buy 2 for the price of a Harley, which also has a lot of overseas manufactured components, despite the cognitive dissonance of their core customers. I’d really like my T-120 to have been made in England but it’s not. But it still reminds me of the bikes I rode as a teen and it still fulfils every expectation. I’ve even had a Harley snob allude to this fact while mounting his machine of dubious origin, but I also own a Meriden Triumph and know which one I prefer for extended and reliable operation. But Triumph are guilty of of providing overchoice (Alvin Toffler - Future Shock 1970) with the proliferation of new models. The RE’s have richly deserved their popularity with the 650’s but I can’t help but think they’ll eventually be the subject of similar opprobrium when they stop being the new best thing. Authenticity is often subjective.
Dave Johnson I think the problem is like you say too many models but more importantly too focused. They have focussed too much on the grey hair pound and this demographic is dwindling. Triumph means nothing to the under 50’s so there main market is pushing 60. As pointed out to me this is why they can charge so much. If they want to survive they need to go back to cheaper simple bikes that appeal to the younger rider. But the marketing department won’t like that ad they see it as diluting the brand same old crap mentality that will cost them dearly.
No I dont think people are unaware of the consequences of a global economy Dave, but I think they do object to being misled as to what they are buying. Hence the big bike cancellation incident in February , and that was basically the only point I was making regarding the machines origins.
Scott and Stuart, I agree with you both. I’m 61 and remember the bikes of my youth and wanted to have the good parts of those days without the realities of maintaining 1930’s technology. In this Triumph has succeeded probably beyond Mr Bloors imagination. 10000km service intervals, excellent power on demand, good brakes, handling and reliability that just wasn’t possible back then. But my demographic is passing and the new generation isn’t buying motorcycles in the same way we did. RE cleverly recognised a demand for simplicity, but this may be just a result of the demands of their home market, and deserves the success these bikes are enjoying. But we have all contributed to the inability of Western nations to compete in our expectations of wages and living standards and in the purchase of discounted goods, many of which are now easily as good as could be produced back home. The recognition of quality control and consumer satisfaction is becoming more real and an RE now is better than ever. Hopefully India, South Africa, South America and SE Asia will step up to win their share of the market in the wake of China’s aggressive posturing. As for me, I’d love a brand new BSA Rocket 3 with decent brakes , ignition and maybe 900-1000cc of reliable power. Maybe a Norton Commando that didn’t require a mortgage. I wouldn’t care if it was made in Madras , Manaus or Bloemfontein if it did what it said on the packet. British oversight should guarantee this.
@@scottcampbell9466 i dont think the daytona is aimed at older riders. I was in a dealership in houston last week and there was a 20 something couple there test riding a t100. He rode a sportster so he probably wasnt typical. But he was blown away by the triumph. The saleman even said it scared him. His words.
It is sad to see great home grown brands which are not just brands but pride of the land's sons. Stuart your stories have been great to hear and feel true from the heart. Keep biking. I liked the royal field's interceptor bike reviews of yours. Being an Indian, I am proud of made in India motorcycle loved by many of the bikers who love simple motorcycle speaking to the riders than taking all the decisions because of the fancy electronics. Keep biking mate and stay healthy and safe from the Virus.
it's a heartbreak, but here in Wisconsin (U.S.A.) we've had four Triumph dealers close their doors for good in recent years. Service calls are now a one and a half to two hour commute, and nowhere to "hang out". Hope Triumph can get this straightened out. Love the brand, love the history!!!
The closest shop to me is in Oshkosh, WI...I've been thinking about trading in my Ducati Supersport for a Speed Twin or Street Triple. This might have to be put on hold for a few years to see how things plays out.
I own both a Royal Enfield Interceptor and a water cooled Triumph Bonneville, I like both bikes, in my view, both manufacturers trade on their heritage. The Interceptor is a fine motorcycle without any bells and whistles, built down to a price with a much smaller engine than the Triumph don’t forget. The water cooled Triumph Bonneville though is a much better motorcycle all round, with the exception of the brakes, which are both on a par in my view. With regards to Customers not wanting all the trick bits, that’s what the old Meridian company said about Japanese bikes having indicators, flashing lights are for Christmas trees they used to say! We can’t stand still, the world changes, we have to move on or you know what happens.
Simply put, the Bonneville is a great product, but it is in no way worth 3 times the price of the interceptor. Triumphs stated customer base requirements are completely opposed by the very success of the bonneville. The rocket iii was the only innovative thing they have done, and, if they continue in this vane, they will die the death very quickly
Which Triumph are you referring to? As good as the RE might be they simply are not equal to say a T-120 or any of the triples. It’s apples and oranges. Nobody was hating on Triumph until RE bought out their very capable 650. When they bring out something that matches the build quality , performance and unobtrusive but useful technology of the Triumphs and still do it for 1/3 the retail price I will indeed be impressed. The 1200 liquid cooled engine was years in development and ended up smaller in overall outline than many of the earlier carburetted Hinkley twins and you don’t regard that as innovative? It’s a great design and lends itself to further development and is only hamstrung by emission regulations. They got it right.
Gareth Temple yep, this is true. The Interceptor isn’t that cheap considering they’re made in India paying people Indian wages. You could argue that British built Triumph’s were incredibly well priced given they’re a superior machine and the costs involved in producing them in this country.
I think I'm going to go with the Enfield when I feel it's time to exchange my Tiger unless Triumph can get to grips with the branding, range and price.
I have the greatest respect for Stuart and accept his analysis completely. Ford poorly handled Jaguar and Land Rover; Tata has led the resurgence globally. I think that if the Triumph fails it will be purchased by Tata or someone like them. If you watch utube vids from overseas you can see that it has great presence in developing countries. Hoping we see a happy ending, but it will likely be different than today. BTW totally agree with him about the hubris of management, the success of RE, and the idiocy of all the models Triumph is carrying.
Spot on Stuart. I love my 2009 Bonneville ($3500.00) with 4000 miles, I purchased 6 months ago. I’ve had many Triumphs over the years (‘69’ Trophy 650, ‘71’ Trophy 500, ‘2000’ C model, 2008 Tiger. All have been used at a reasonable price. Triumph has indeed lost its way building bloated, ever larger cc’s for what. It’s not what the buyer wants. Trim the Bonnie down 100 pounds, go back to air cooled, drop the 1200 cc etc. Give us the Triumph that made the original company famous.
i have to say the Bonneville is out dated and no one really wants to buy one. The styling is 1970 or 1966 or so, it has not changed for 75 years. i do believe they could make a come back with a cafe racer style motorcycle if they lower the exhaust under the bike and make it more comfortable to ride, including the seat and the suspension, maybe try a mono shock on the rear and longer suspension struts on the front like the baha cross country vehicles of the desert racers.
I love triumph motor cycles. I admit...the idea of my triumph being manufactured anywhere but England hurts the brand. I think my 2020 Speed Triple is from the UK. I named her Daphne Hinkley. I am now reconsidering my next purchase which was going to be a 2020 TFC Bobber. I dont want that bike anymore. just looks dumb with the Union Jacks knowing it came from anywhere else...especially an Asian country.
By God Stu you articulate my thoughts on this subject perfectly. I refuse to be hoodwinked by Triumph's faux patriotism. If they were made in the UK by British workers I'd have one in a heartbeat and hang the extra cost. Once again you cast a sober eye over a contentious debate and clearly state your case. I always look forward to your videos.
Your absolutely right about Triumph, it's bewildering how many models there are in their line up, Triumph dealerships are a great place to scratch ones head.
The change from the outside world would indeed appear to be just after the introduction of the bonnie. It's massive success was as much a surprise to the company as to other in the industry. However it was in mid 2004 when the real and defined change happened, when a new addition to the triumph team (Bruno Tagliaferri) identified 5 distinct customer groups. The company had been focused on what he termed the 'traditionalist' but would now become focused on the 'specialist'. This type of customer would be more lifestyle focused, a collector, younger. The entire bike range and business focus would change to reflect this. They would no longer be selling bikes they would be selling an experience. I sat their dutifully watching his presentation thinking 'what about our existing customers' as did many of us. At this time sports bike, sports/tourer sales were disappearing and these would be the first casualties. At this time frames had just started to be assembled/welded in Thailand along with our paint shop which had transferred in about 2000 ish. I did not enjoy working for Triumph and left at the end of 2004 after working there for 5 years. The one good asset the company had were its shop floor employees who I have to say were absolute marines with a 'can do' attitude of a level I have since never seen in the work place. Often giving up their spare family time to help the company . This for me is why this news is such a disappointment. Hopefully those that have lost their jobs will find other employment soon.
@Jam Jarchannel - It sounds far too familiar when compared to the British motorcycle industry and workers in the '60s and '70s loosing there jobs and loosing an industry.
This is all about British Companies making quick profits, it is cheaper to make them outside of the UK but it does not make their Bikes cheaper to buy for their customers. I went to this years MCN show and to be honest I could not believe the prices that the Triumphs were being posted at, I am retiring this year and was on the look out for a new 600/650 machine at a reasonable price. I so wanted to buy British having previously had a 900 Bonneville which was way to more of a machine than I needed, when I chanced upon the Interceptor and without looking at the makers name I knew this was the bike. It was only when my son said "you know this is an Indian Royal Enfield" that I fell in, he said have you seen the price and I expected £8k plus but no just over £6k. Why are Triumphs so much more expensive when they are made outside of the UK just like the RE, just like Triumph the RE's are designed in the UK!
I guess the price is high as moving plants to foreign country is expensive,RE have been in india forever...you can get parts of RE bike which was made in 1950s(my grandpa's police service bike) as well & like everywhere ,so cost to manufacture RE is way to low Triumph prices will reduce once thai prod line will stabalise
Thank you Stuart for your video. It ticked a few boxes with me. There are so many 1200cc powered different models it was getting to be a bit of a TURDUCKEN experience to go and look at the Triumph dealers for what is "new" but Triumph fixed that in Sydney we went from 5 dealers to only 1 now. The dealers gave up and moved on this year. The one I used to use said that the bar was put too high for them to keep on dealing Triumphs any more. It sounded like a nightmare. I had the first retro Bonneville when it came out I did 40,000 ks before I wrote it off ( My Fault "dickhead vs truck ") next I had a T100 for 10,000 ks. I traded it in on a T120 Black and 60,000k's later it has not missed a beat eg Sydney to Perth in 4.5 days. I have decatted it put a motodemic LED headlight, cruise control ( awesome , saves my licence 1 a fortnight ) and a screen with a touring seat. I still have 2 1970's Norton Commandos and a T160V that I like to ride. However I am happy to ride my T120 in extremes of weather ( + 40 C down to snow on the road ) . Even in Sydney peak hour through to the outback the T120 has been the bee's knee's. I so love the riding position I was told about the "lemon chicken thing" before I brought the T120 I just thought it was globalisation. We are bereft of any motorcycle factories downunder. I'm looking forward to TVS sorting Norton out maybe that's the future for Triumph post Corona. Thanks again Stewart for your videos
A major reason why so many British automobile brands (to include car makers) are going under/being bought up by foreign companies is because they are simply not targeting the sections of the market that lend well to scale & numbers (middle, lower-middle price range especially if considering exports) enough. Sure targeting just the upper-middle & high-end price ranges probably lends well to ensuring higher profit margins (look at margins of Ferrari compared to someone like Fiat or Ford) but it doesn't give them the stability and revenues needed to sustain bigger operations. Which is why the companies/holdings that own these niche brands seek to get rid of them at the first sign of major trouble. Once they go to new owners, a lot depends on whether that owner seeks to use-and-throw the brand for the margins it can bring in over a limited time, or rather reform and build it up into a more stable operation, like what Tata did to JLR (making them more like BMW where they begin getting into a wider price range rather than just remain within a niche, especially Jaguar). P.S. For future reference, I believe the second J in Bajaj is not silent, so its not pronounced Baja but the full Bajaj. Love your content - especially helpful are the ones about custom parts!
I love my Triumph Bonneville T100, I bought it brand new back in March of this year and it has just had it's Run-In-Service completed. I'm new to this style of bike as always been Sportsbike rider, I still am but added this Triumph to the garage too. In fact, your channel and your T120 was one of the things that inspired me to try it out. I was originally thinking of a Royal Enfield Interceptor 650, but after seeing them in the flesh, as nice as they are, I could see and feel the difference in fit and finish between it and the Triumph. So I paid a bit more and managed to get a great deal on the Bonnie, and bought the full retro kit to go with it, most of it your recommendations on your vids : ) There are a lot of businesses (multinationals) out there that I wouldn't have dreamt to have struggled in this situation that are because of Covid-19, so it just highlights how close to the wire businesses operate these days. I wish Triumph all the very best, I would hate to see them go down as I think they're one of the coolest motorcycle brands out there at the minute and I'm personally loving their designs. I'm in my late 30's but really enjoying this retro style and look.
I sold my bonnie and bought a royal Enfield interceptor and oh boy what a bike it knocks spots of the bonnie looks and did you know ex triumph people designed the interceptor engine in Britain you could have bought two interceptors and gone on holiday with the rest you saved.
It is a common issue: Many companies that have been struggling for some years are now using the current pandemic as a scapegoat to allow them to downsize or close without taking any personal responsibilty
The last completely British made Bonneville was the 2006 model. Starting in 2007 the 865 cc engine was assembled in GB and shipped to Thailand to be installed in frames made locally.
Triumph have some competitively priced motorcycles in most areas - street triple and tiger models etc.. but the Enfield Interceptor introduction means Triumph will have to reassess its bonneville pricing or lose quite a lot of customers. Enfield has significant economies of scale in its Indian operations (and overseas manufacturers are hampered by high import duties) and that along with lower indian cost base means that continuing UK manufacture seems fanciful. (Don't see Norton as anything other than niche). If you have a limited cap ex spend on your manufacturing operations then its unsurprising that Thailand gets the nod. For me I want simple with high quality control (i.e. not a BMW). My T100 has been rock solid but I understand other peoples experiences haven't been the same.
Spot on! I bought a bonneville T100 in 2008 (last of the carbs) because I was burning out in my commute in Los Angeles. The bike was $4,000 less expensive than a Harley and Honda was not making their CB's at the time. Runs great other than the never ending oil leak at the head gasket. Breaks are not the best. But all in all made the commute fun. Also always receive many complements on the bike. I think most of the bikes were made in Thailand at the time. The place where I purchased the bike indicated that the plant in England was mostly for R&D and show but like most of the competitors alot of bikes were made in Tailand.
Half the reason why the royal enfield 650s have been such a success is down to price which whats lets triumph down, way to expensive for what they are. If they were all made in britain then perhaps they could justify the prices
I've always been a loyal Triumph customer. I still own a 1994 Speed and a wonderful Thunderbird Sport. A couple of years ago, when I moved to Singapore, I bought a Bonneville T120. Sadly, it's probably the worst Triumph I've ever owned. Still a wonderful bike, indeed, but with a number of flaws. I spent quite a long time trying to solve a few appalling problems: squeaking brakes, poor set up (I know, it's dealer's fault, but the dealer is still in the Triumph family...). The most striking difference with the old Hinckley models, however, is the poor quality of the materials. After a couple of months engine's alloy was already pitted; after a while chrome was rusting, almost peeling away; the battery died in six months. I'm not from the UK, but I've always been a great admirer of British bikes. My TBird Sport is still there, waiting for me at home in Europe: it only takes to charge the battery and inflate the tyres, and after almost 100.000 km she still runs perfectly. Not a single spot of rust. The same is true for the 1971 Norton Commando I've used as my main, everyday bike for more than 25 years. When I bought my T120 I was looking for another good, authentic and reliable piece of British technology: I hate to say this, but I'm not sure I got it
Triumph has totally left the 250-750cc segment unattended. And RE took advantage of it. They are making more bikes based on their 650cc platform. In an interview with an Indian UA-cam channel, RE CEO said that they will launch 1 bike every quarter for upcoming 2-3 years starting with Meteor 350cc in June or july. Although Triumph said their first 200-250cc bike developed with Bajaj ( will be made in India) is on track and will come out next year. Let's wait and watch
bajaj has already tried to penetrate classic bike section with bajaj V ,and it failed,i think it is their safe attempt to try again If you have read,bajaj will be making bike but stamp would be of triumph I think bajaj is trying to compete with RE in india,same approach as Hero - harley or mahindra jawa bikes(failure)
@@rajuseth1683 Actually Bajaj has already cleared that no Bajaj products will come out of this partnership. Bajaj will make bikes designed by Triumph so that they are affordable. Also they said it will be a 200cc under 2 lakh. Do u think people will pay 2 lakh for a 200cc even if it is a triumph.( Although people pay 2 lakh for RC200, but that's a sports bike ) Also this time it's not bajaj, it's Triumph who's trying to enter into enfield's territory coz 650 twins have affected Triumph sales internationally. Personally I don't think I will replace my Enfield with a triumph as of now
@@jeffrygagnon5506 Take it easy Jeff. I wasn't trying to get on anyone's case and you act like stating my personal experience is somehow offensive. I'm allowed a personal opinion as a new or any other rider, and I'm willing to bet other new riders might appreciate another new rider's thoughts and perspective. It's likely being familiar with manaul trans on cars helped. Also having self-restraint and a healthy respect for power and the unknown, (something of a lost art it seems these days) helps. And I have dropped it already. Well, not dropped it so much as it slipped on wet leaves at about 1/2mph on a really wide turn and slowly fell into the grass.
@@redrumcoke2363 I have the a 2010 T100 have to admit its a bike with enough power to be fun but not quite enough to get you in to too much trouble! Ignore the Ranters some people do get a little emotional at times!
look for a Hyosung GV250. Friend of mine just bought a brand new 2016 for $1,800! It's a cruiser style bike, v-twin like a Harley. Very easy to drive and handle. 27" seat height. 250cc 5 speed. fuel injection. Very nice bike.
The Harley Davidson model is not the one to follow as it has led to the near bankruptcy of that company. I have built and ridden Triumph motorcycles for over 50 years and I can tell you that a Taiwanese Triumph will not ever grace my garage. Mr. Fillingham is quite correct when he states that Royal Enfield is now filling the market for a light weight, well built motorcycle at an affordable price.
It's not only the customers who are asking for electronics for bikes. Euro 5 standards require also quite much of stuff on driver aids and engine management side making everything more complicated and expensive. I think Triumph is relying too heavily on retro bikes now. Maybe they sell now but it's probably just older customers like on harley and some fashion thing with hipsters that is going to probably go away with in couple years. I would like to see completely new Speed Triple that is actually competitive with bikes like Ducati Street Fighter and Super Duke. It's been almost the same bike now something like 15 years while everybody else have been busy.
I own a T120 (have done since 2018) and I enjoy riding it, but a few months back I bought a Royal Enfield Classic 500 and am having a total ball on it! It receives way more interest and compliments than my Triumph, which took me by surprise, but the essence is, as has been said, it’s ’basic’ motoring. Along with that comes pure biking joy, the less is more philosophy!? And at £10’600 for a T120 et al, they’re pushing the concept of ‘cheap motorcycling’ out the window, that part of their historical provenance seems to have been conveniently forgotten. Maybe they should build a classic single similar to the REC500? They have it in their DNA. But price it better than their current range, and without the unnecessary whistles ‘n bells! Nice video, thank you.
I have been off the same opinion as you for a while, Stuart. I have owned Triumps for more than 20 years and will never willingly give up my Thunderbird tripe. I did realise that since my bike was manufactured that Triumph had moved a lot of production to Thailand. This, in itself, did not put me off and have long thought about buying a Bonnie. What did put me pff was the way that the Bonnie changed from being a delighfully simple mid range bike to a bloated, liquid cooled behemoth. Four years ago I ought an air/oil cooled BMW 1200RT instead. I have covered a lot of mileage on this bike and have had some fun. That said the BMW is a bitch to home service, is heavy and has a quality of finish well below my 1996 Thunderbird. I still hankered after a mid range motorcycle that looked good, was straight forward to service, handled well and had good, durable components. In April of this year I decided that I could afford and sorely wanted, a Royal Enfield Interceptor. If it were not for Covid I would already have ordered this machine. No rush at the moment as I am awaiting eye surgery and cannnot ride until my sight is sorted. My final, cast iron, decision was, in no small part, to your detailed coverage f this model in your videos. You are spot on in your analysis of the demographics, I am a rider with 40 plus years experience, am British, want a mid range bike, don.t want liquid cooling and I am a Triumph rider. A natural customer the Triumph board of directors must have thought. I bear them no particular ill will but think they have lost the plot, as you do. It is their actions that have resulted in me deciding that a Royal Enfield is the rational choice for one such as me.
Yep, that truth has been bouncing around in my brain since I learned where they were made and I'm thinking "a new Suzuki Bandit can be had for $7,200" . Now, should I be suspicious of the Bandit or Triumph?
I just bought a Bonnie a few days ago and the dealer said they were selling like crazy. There was at least 8 or 9 bikes with sold signs waiting for delivery. Harleys are the ones not selling right now in PA
@@stuartfillingham I'm sure you are correct, either way I just took my first ride on my new T100 and it is everything you said it was. It's an amazing piece of machinery
Wow bit of an eye opener. I still thought they were made in the UK and I won’t be the only one. Always like to support British made goods if possible even if they’re not market leaders. The comment about not being able to stay Brit built cos we can’t make (install) the electronics but Thailand can seems bs to me. Be upfront and honest, the public would respect you more for it
i wish i could have explained that situation as well as you have Stuart, spot on . as a speed R owner i have watched in despair as Triumph have inflated their prices saying its a premium product . They have totally lost touch with the people who were buying these bikes. i was at my local dealer last week having a service , chatting away and the salesman saying how many cancellations of Triumphs he has had nothing to do with the virus thing but all to do with the moving to Thailand thing . Another so called
british company going to the wall ?, great video as always .
Your not the first to tell me this Simon but thanks for the confirmation that its still ongoing. there was a huge influx of such comments when Triumph first mentioned they were moving everything to Thailand!
@@stuartfillingham
Triumph Products are priced exorbitantly here in India
Model Name Rs. to. Pound
1. SpeedTwin. 946,000. 9847
2. T120. 997,600. 10382.25
3. T100. 887,400 9235.38
4. Scrambler. 1,07,3000. 11166
1200
5.Scrm(800) 855,000. 8898
6.Street twn 745,000. 7753
7.Thrxton1200. 1,215,800. 13278
8. Bobber 1,028,200 10701
9.speedmstr. 1,133,700. 11799
10.rockt3r. 1,800,000 18734
11. ST 3 RS 1,113,000. 11584
12. Tigr800xca. 1,516,700. 15784
14 tiger1200. 1,700,000 17693
All are in Exshowroom indian prices add a 200,000rs plus as insurance n road tax to this vehicle price...
You will be jaw dropped...
Other brands like Kawasaki , Benelli, sells bikes half this price!!
@@jj_infotainment Situation is not that different in the UK. Would you buy a T100 for £8900 or a RE Interceptor 650 for £5600? Most potential buyers voted with their wallets and went for the Royal Enfield, those 650 twins have literally smashed the core base of Triumphs bonneville range.
And i love mike busbys response. RE residuals here in australia are falling through the floor. Triumps profits are increasing. RE lost over 20% of sales before the pandemic hit. Go figure.
@@garyvesper9647 Yeah the falling sales thing is reported to have been due to the domestic market holding on for the latest emmisions regulation ready bikes to be released. all Indian manufacturers experienced a similar drop in sales. also RE were selling around 800,000 bikes a year but the bullet based models sales dropped as the new twins were introduced which they did expect. as for residual values dropping. I wish they would here so I can snap up a bargain continental GT.
If the Bonneville was still 650cc and made in Britain, I would love to have one. I am 62 and I don't want a 1,200cc bike. I don't want a lot of gadgets. I just want a simple bike.
I was reading the comments and thinking that the Brits had the capacity spot on at 650 and your comment pops up!
@@thomasfrank280 To this day, I still consider the 650 to be the perfect size. The engine has enough power to get out on the highway and roll with the traffic in the high speed lanes. It has enough torque to make around town a pleasure. The weight of the bike is manageable in the driveway, parking lots, around town and in stop and go traffic.
@@thomasfrank280 I was just thinking about what I would want and not want in a bike.
I grew up racing motocross in the early to mid 70s. I did all my own tuning and wrench pulling at 14 years old. On race day, my bike was ready to perform.
I want carbs (so I can change jets), analog gauges, a stiff frame, good suspension, a reliable power plant, and great brakes. I will take electronic ignition over points, just for the better spark power and reliability.
I don't want electronic fuel injection, ABS, traction control, rider modes, fancy gauges that I can't see in bright sunlight, or computers that can't handle me changing to pod filters and replacing the exhaust without reprogramming.
Basically, my 1981 KZ650. I loved that bike.
Plus a modern 650 engine could still smoke the original while getting better economy.
I'm 71 and drive a T100 Bonneville. 900cc, and it's perfect. I see no need for the T120 1200cc and never understood the price difference for a larger bore and stroke. (and an additional front disc brake). How does a larger bore and stroke add so much to the retail price between the 900 and 1200 when the two bikes are otherwise identical?
Spot on Stuart, you only have to look at Royal Enfield’s Interceptor’s success to see what the customers really want, and it’s not a bloated machine stuffed full of electronics.
@john harris Electronic components are there because of emissions. It is not possible to produce a vehicle propelled by an ICE for use anywhere now. You may not like that, but it's a fact. It is also illegal to interfere with it in any way. Amal carbs were wonderful 50 years ago. But just think for one moment, if you or one of your family has a respiratory problem and there are people like you circumventing the very laws that are meant to protect us.
@john harris That is quite funny to hear the Bullet 500 has too many electronics. I know what you mean though I''d rather rejet a carb than mess about with a laptop myself.
I don't agree, some people like the electronics... me for one!
STEVE PALMER (and others above) Fine if it works, Steve. Hell if it doesn’t, as in this case.
How long will it be before we ship the generation of electricity to Third World countries so they choke on our lust for “clean energy”? Les in UK
Omar Murad I think the Interceptor is a more modern and comparable example but personally I still think the Triumph is a better bike.
I'm a Yank with a Performance Shop that specializes in the Harley Dyna Superglide, and as a Engineer, I truly LOVE the modern TRIUMPH motorcycle. That being said, here's a analogy, Imagine Ducati made in China?
Exactly, it doesn't work.
TRIUMPHS made in Thailand only satisfies the accounting department. The same department with the bulldozer knocking the company down into the ground. SAD.
Ducati manufacture in Thailand too, as do BMW and Harley . . . .
What about Harleys made in India?
Harley's sold in the USA are made in the USA, Those made in India do not come back into the USA. Does it matter? To many people it does. Triumph tried to mimic HD's business model. HD business model doesn't even actually work for HD in that they make a lot of their money off of Branding and clothing etc... Triumph isn't even close to being HD in that arena and now its coming to a head.
@@stevewhatnall well said
That's an excellent point.
Let’s hope it’s just a rough patch and that they can weather the storm. They may not be perfect, but the biking marketplace would be a poorer place without Triumph in it.
Triumph is another company that dont listen to what the outsiders want to ride, like in the USA most of us want a light weight twin inline with the muffler under the bike and not under our leg and no big stupid looking giant muffler sticking up anywhere under our seat. We want torque and some rpm to play with also 4 gal fuel tank so we can go 200 miles on a tank of fuel, its a long ways between fuel stations in Texas./
Last year I started to be interested again in buying a new motorcycle. After 27 year of not driving one. I was looking for a classic appearance not so much in high tech and horsepower. I found out that Triumph motorcycles start at around 10.000 €. Then Christmas evening 2019 happened. We had a party with the family and I had nice talk to someone who's friend was tuning and hardening Royal Enfields. In January I took a look at the Royal Enfield Website and I was falling in love with the Interceptor 650. "This one looks like the old Bonneville!", i said to myself. At the end of of January I went to the dealer and bought one without test drive.
Reasons:
1. It looks great.
2. It was affordable. (It's already paid!)
3. It's not high tech without that electronic toys nobody needs.
4. All the tests on UA-cam told me that this is a motorcycle to have fun with.
5. Pure riding with a honest motorcycle.
Now, 3 Month and 6.200 kms later on that Interceptor 650 I'm happy with my Interceptor 650 and I always have a smile on my face, when I ride it.
Conclusion: No need for an expensive Triumph for me!
Sensible Man.
You may “drive” a royal Enfield, but you ride a triumph. As the saying goes, ‘god rides a Harley, the devil rides a triumph!’
@@joespirit And we all know the devil's going to get his comeuppance from God.
Carl Jones .....bring it on!
I am 76 and have been riding for 56 years and have never been without a ride. Sold a large heavy bike a few months ago and thought maybe I should just give up ridding. Guess what ? I bought a 2012 Kymco Like 200 i actually 164 cc and 11.5 hp. And another guess what. Never take the freeway and stay on roads the are for the most part 45 mph and I am having a blast with this tiny low horse power light scooter. Never in my wildest dreams had I thought I would ever own a scooter. The thing is, it meets my needs gets 75 mpg. Life is always changing and discover that fun is where one finds it.
I couldn’t agree more on both the model lineup,and moving production to Thailand. I bought a Royal Enfield Interceptor for $5299 vs.$12999 for Triumph Bonne 1200 here in US
You are comparing the price of a 650 to a 1200. It's absurd.
Rich Phillips is it really absurd? Is there a 1:1 relationship between engine displacement and satisfaction? Does cost barrier to entry not matter? Seems to me if you want to grow your customer base into the future, you need to attract NEW riders. i.e. younger, less experienced, often less net wealth, usually less sure about spending more money for more power, etc. To new riders in particular, this comparison is not absurd. I’m a “millennial” (ugh) who just bought my first bike. I’ve wanted a Bonneville since I was a kid. Instead I bought an Interceptor...and the decision was not difficult. If Triumph and Harley want to sell more bikes to younger & new riders, as they claim, they’d do well to offer more options for people who do not think these considerations are absurd.
@@jabuhrer1 The Royal Enfield Interceptor is a perfect bike for most of the beginners that strikes a balance between price and performance.
Same here, and I am in the UK. Triumph lost it and the last extravagant t3000 is their white elephant. I ride a Benelli, a Guzzi and an Enfield, you just can't beat those on value, legacy, design..... Triumph committed suicide with their electronic bonnies
So true! I sold my last Triumph in -16 and that was a Legend 900cc with Speed Triple camshafts. No gadgets, no electronics, no ridingmodes. Just me and the bike. I've often looked at Triumph's since but the distance between me and the Triumph bikes are just growing. I bought a Honda CB650R for £11500. The Street Twin is £18100 here in Denmark. Same price as a HD 883 Iron. A Royal Enfield Interceptor 650 costs £10000. (heavy pricing is due to taxation)
This videos comments are spot on. I've purchased 4 new Triumphs over the past 20 years, I've been happy with every one, BUT I didnt buy any if them because they were the best bike, I bought them because they were made in England, even though they were considerably more expensive than the competition. Triumph shifting production to Thailand had taken away that reason, so my past 2 purchases have been Japanese, better bikes, and far cheaper. Triumph has consistently put 2 fingers up at its target market, playing on it being a British product despite being made in the far east. I'm not the only one who feels like this. My mates that I ride with were ALL Triumph 10 years ago, now its 1. The company is doing exactly what M&S did, in chasing quick profits they have p**sed off their target market and MOST IMPORTANTLY they have forgotten what made them successful. The writing is on the wall
same here
Well said mate 👍🏻
Sad but true !
Forget the Rocket R - it’s a Z H2 for me !
Stuart, I have a restored 1965 Triumph TR6SR that’s identical to the one I bought, still in the crate, back in 1965 when I was in high school. Of all the motorcycles I’ve had those two 1965 Triumphs were the most fun to ride because they were light, comfortable, nimble and with plenty power to carry a passenger at highway speeds all day long. And they are absolutely beautiful machines. Last year Triumph introduced the Speed Twin and I bought one. The design and build quality of that bike is absolutely top notch. It is also light, comfortable, nimble and has twice the power of the 1965 bikes which makes it just as much fun to ride as the old bikes. Sure, it has MUCH better brakes, a 6 speed transmission, a fuel gauge, fuel injection, ride modes, a USB port to power my smart phone for navigation, and two beautiful analog clocks. I don’t hold any of that against it and actually appreciate having all these features.
Now I agree that Triumph has a dizzying number of models right now with all the various Bonneville offerings and the many adventure bikes and sporty triples. That’s a lot of variety for the dealers to manage and the customers to consider. Hopefully they can trim all that variety to the best selling models. It seems that could help lower the prices somewhat too. Fewer models, fewer parts, easier manufacturing.
Well said sir, I own a Speed Twin for exactly the same reasons, by far and away the best bike in the Bonneville range...
I would think that when you look at them, there is a fairly good range of models to suit different riders, except in cheaper commuter type bikes, but that there is a very large range of configurations of the basic models.
Considering that it seems few people do any serious spanner work, it is a good way for customers to have a bike "individually" to their specs. It means Tiumph need a short lead time on new bikes, which could be arranged by doing final assembly in the country of sale. For used, it inevitably means a dealer does need a large floor/quick access to other dealers stock in order to attract a wider range of customers. Hasn't that always been the case?
Quite a few othe manufacturers have an even larger range of models, including cheaper commuters etc.
I live in Thailand and bought a new speed twin assembled here last year. I love the bike, the quality and the service. Not cheap but solid in every way
How much did you pay for it?
@@HarleyFirestorm I'm with you. I'd only buy a British, American or Japanese bike. Parts manufacture notwithstanding, design and assembly are key.
@@bobz1736 been saying that for years to those "ride only American" types. If you take everything out of your Harley that's not made in America, it won't run. Same with Indian, as you say, and most other brands. I bought a Hyosung (S. Korea) and I'm very happy with it. I think it's time to get over where it's assembled and just enjoy the bike!
@@Section9.P.S Another Thailand resident here, not a Triumph owner now although my last UK bike was a 675 Daytona. Price of Speed Twin on Triumph's UK website is 'from £10,700'. Same bike quoted as 'from 576,000 ฿' on the Thailand website. That's equivalent to £14,500 at current exchange rates.
@@HarleyFirestorm I do see what you mean and you make a valid point. But, let me make a point as well: If you know the industrious Thai people I am pretty sure they can build very good motorbikes. So, having a motorbike built in Thailand isn't necessarily bad.
I’m in Australia and the iconic Australian car manufacturer Holden that had made Holden cars here since the 40’s decided a couple of years ago to start importing their top selling commodore and close the Aussie factory. The public utterly rejected Holden after that and very soon the company will be no more.
Yep and the Aussie government gave them and Ford all that aid to keep them in Australia and all they did was send that money overseas to the parent companies. Fuck Holden and Ford .Aussie taxpayers got screwed for hundreds of millions. I was a third generation Ford owner but would never buy Ford or Holden ever again .
Really hate to hear that mate. When they were going great guns I interviewed from Ohio. Withdrew my candidacy.
Saw things go downhill and was glad I was still home and not being laid off overseas.
Well, Holden wasn't just that good anymore.
@@interman7715 They will just sell them to the Asians.
I’ve been saying exactly your points Stuart for a few years now. I’ve owned a fair few triumphs but like many other “ older “ riders was no longer bothers about max BHP & ever increasing electronics. Loved the look of the thruxton R when it came out , so took a test ride. Loved the bike but couldn’t justify 12k for something I only use on sunny sundays . I now have a new interceptor 650 at less than half the price of the triumph, I love the Royal Enfield, it’s not fast, but so what, it’s got loads of character & makes me smile 👌
andrew thompson that's what it's about, well done with your decision I'm gonna stick with T120 since had it since 2016 for now!
If the motorcycle you own makes you smile. You've made the right choice 👍
You can only go so fast on public roads without getting busted, no matter how many CCs you have. Adequate is adequate is enough.
Speed, how fast are we going to go?......it is all about the ride....that where Interceptor makes you smile
I have owned 3 Triumphs. The first was a 1970 Daytona 500, the 2nd was a 1972 Trident, and finally my 2002 Speed Triple. That 1970 Daytona is the reason that I was never really attracted to the "new" Bonnevilles. They seem too heavy compared to that little bike. The Trident was a fun bike, but it had many issues, both the usual electrical gremlins and mechanical failures.
That Trident did have a lovely sound and remembering that sound lead me to my Speed Triple. It is now 18 years old with 87,000 miles. I love the sound, it has been reliable and durable. This past winter I rebuilt the suspension and adjusted the valves, actually, only one valve needed shimming. That is the first adjustment the valves have required. I think it is important to recognize how much better the current Triumphs are in every regard than the classic motorcycles of the past. They are fast reliable, durable, well engineered, and competitive with anything on the market. I also own a 2015 KTM SuperDuke, (and many other bikes over the years) so I have a basis for comparison. Triumph has achieved deserved reputation for building quality motorcycles.
Should the Bonneville line be more like the Royal Enfield Interceptor? Maybe, but I bet Triumph couldn't build them in the UK and match Royal Enfield asking price. Personally I like the Street Triple. As I get older I feel the need for a lighter motorcycle. Not necessarily slower or simpler. I appreciate electronic aids such as anti-lock brakes and the most wonderful of them all, heated grips. The Street Triple and the KTM 790 both fit the bill.
I don't have nostalgia for the way things used to be. I remember breaking down in the middle of nowhere and having to use my mechanical skills to get home. The need to constantly adjust your valves, chasing seemingly endless oil leaks, chasing electrical gremlins, fixing broken brackets caused by vibration, etc. It makes a good story to tell your grand kids but really, at this stage of my life I would just prefer to ride. Maybe on a Street Triple.
As a fan of Triumphs in general & Bonnies in particular, I find this a little heartbreaking. I've loved & lusted after Bonnevilles since the first one I saw in a drive-in in 1968. I just sold my 2007 Bonnie, the last year without fuel injection. I loved it, and hated to give it up, but my health has gotten where I couldn't hold it up anymore. Even though I was aware the new bikes from the 90's weren't the same as the 60's versions, at least they made a lot of effort to retain the popular Triumph styling, and my 2007 Bonnie was obviously inspired by the old bikes, didn't look that much different than a '68 Bonnie side by side. A lot of the info you shared in this video was news to me, and unfortunately, made me a bit sad. From the time I was old enough to ride, until I was too old to ride, Triumph was the quintessential motorcycle in my mind, and always represented to me what motorcycling was all about.
Hi Stuart, I was in conversation yesterday with a man from Hinkley who told me that Triumph were / are storing unsold machines in any available space due to vanishing sales. We agreed that perhaps Triumph had misjudged the ability of competitors ( Royal Enfield ) to out perform in the market place. Very informative video. Thanks as always. Bye bye Triumph?
Very sad to hear your update on the Triumph situation, they ARE an iconic brand, they ARE a British company and John Bloor had done a brilliant job in bringing the marque to a class leading position, they deserve our support, fingers crossed they can come through this.
Splodge 57 beat me to it , but I concur!
Add me...love my 2017 T120 (which I bought in part due to Stuart's videos)...10000 trouble free miles and just now replacing the rubber. Best wishes to Triumph. We're all a work in progress.
I would love to give them my support, but these exorbitant prices are certainly not helping me to buy British and get a Thai maschine for my UK Pounds.
Triumph's beginnings were not exactly British as Triumph was founded in Coventry by two German immigrants from Nuremberg named Siegfried Bettmann and Moritz Schulte. Bettmann wanted to start a company to build bicycles for the masses. At that time German workers were paid more than Bettmann wanted to pay, so he moved to Coventry in England where wages were lower and he could build his bicycles cheaper and sell them at a more competitive price. Bettmann chose the brand name "Triumph" because the word is recognised all over the world no matter which language is spoken.
Bettmann's Coventry built Triumph bicycles sold so well that he opened a second factory in his hometown of Nuremberg. To avoid confusion with the Coventry built Triumph brand, Bettmann used the TWN brand for the German built Triumph's. TWN stood for Triumph Werke Nuremberg, eventually both factories started producing motorcycles, the Coventry factory in 1902 and the Nuremberg factory in 1903. TWN built the popular split single 2-stroke 200cc "Cornet" and the 350cc "Boss" models, the German factory ceased motorcycle production in 1957 in favour of making Adler typewriters. TWN became part of Adler in 1956.
By having their motorcycles built in Thailand the current Triumph marque are doing the same thing that Bettmann did in 1885 when he founded the original Triumph factory, getting their products built where labour costs are cheaper than in their home country. BMW are having their single cylinder machines built in China, as are the Chinese owned Benelli marque. Even Harley-Davidson are planning to have their new range of 338cc motorcycles built in China by Qiangjiang, Benelli's parent company. These H-D's will be based on Benelli's current BN250 model.
Most of the electrical system on my 2011 XL883N "Iron" were manufactured in China.
@@davidmacgregor5193 Excellent historical review. Thanks, Ronn
Maybe they haven't learned from the old company,that you can't take your customers for granted? Oh they won't care where it's made,or that it costs more than the competition? We'll just cover it with the British flag,and it'll be ok! That's what I think? The reason I ride a Triumph is because it's a great bike,and made in England!(even tho I'm Welsh☺)
Norton went burst due to not doing what triumph did by moving manufacturing or any other thing. So your point is useless. Triumph just like any other company that's trying to stay afloat while Norton did nothing.
Really? I thought Norton went thru because it was run by a CON man?
@@expatbiker6598 Norton went bust because of the criminal activities of the CEO!
@@stuartfillingham
Fire the CEO and then move on. £££
I bought a 2014 speed triple in the limited edition Caspian sea blue new off the show room floor for $10,500 US spring of 2015. I will never buy another bike. it's one of the best true riding experiences I've ever had, abs is the only tech on the bike... No traction control, wheelie control, quick shifter. just you and a sublime chassis, brilliant brakes, and a torquey engine with plenty of power up top if you want it. And I'm 25... Triumph have simply not released a bike that would even come close to parting me with my speed at the prices they're asking these days.
I visited the factory last year. It was very obvious it was just a window dressing job. By the end of the tour I was persuaded NOT to buy a Triumph.
Same as me the whole setup looked dodgy.
This is an excellent video and thank you very much for it. As a Yank, whose friend just bought a Tiger 900 Rally GT, I can say we thought long and hard about this purchase. The Triumph offered a lot of value for money. It seemed the best choice relative to the other offerings from Honda, BMW and KTM.
This issue of authenticity (in the US we are obsessed with Harley-Davidson) is an interesting one. I think most commentators would argue that Harley's base customer is the one that ensured its difficulties, if not demise. This customer base has insisted Harley not stray far from its roots as the market changed mightily. Young folks are simply different from older folks, yet nostalgia is a powerful pull. How to appeal to it with integrity? Yes, Triumph may have made a fatal error in producing quintessential models like the Bonneville in Thailand, but those looking for Adventure bikes and other niches wouldn't be so fussed. Thanks for the food for thought.
When I found out the new Rocket was made in Thailand. That was it for me and when the news about moving the production. I traded in the Triumph and gone back to Japanese much better value and not pretending to be something they are not.
"British Harley Davidson " perfect analogy
The current trend world wide in most business, in most areas, is that they arent in touch with their customers.
They spend millions of dollars in marketing departments that fail the mark by kilometres, because they want money and follow the profit goal above all, making the company the primary goal instead of properly attending their customer needs. I owned 5 triumphs before leaving the brand, and I did it because the prices for everything grew and grew without delivering anything that different. Because as you said, all I wanted was a good, reliable, middle class, stylish metal machine that could go places.
Think a lot of companies ,will use the pandemic to streamline workforces . I can see unemployment rising.
Trump says next year will be the GREATEST year ever for the economy. Don't you believe him?? lol
@@BEEBEE159 Not a chance in hell ha.
Well another thing which is quite amazing about Enfields and is mostly uncovered is the reliability they offer. Being from India, I have been riding Enfields almost for 15 years. And the bike is so well put together that it just goes on and on. I have myself put on more than 100000 kms on my RE500 Classic and still no signs of lethargy in the motorcycle. And also considering the Indian roads it's almost obvious that the bike will almost last forever in the UK. Cheers!
Amazing Rishabh! I was admiring the Enfields at high altitudes in Nth Eastern India, negotiating dusty pot holed tracks and roads I would never try on my bikes. They seem unbreakable.
Thats good to hear. I rember in the 2000s they have gearbox issues.
I agree, I got my hand on the ONLY Classic 500 Pegasus in the Republic of Ireland last year. I actually got it for the looks and the emotional factor because my very first bike (30 years ago) was an Indian made Bullet 350 (and my dad drove one too). I was prepared for the old Bullet 350 experience that while they can last forever - you need to know your way around the engine and feel comfortable to deal with the amount of maintenance needed and a few times I had found myself replacing a head gasket by the side of the road - almost any issue could be addressed while on the go. I was rather shocked to find that my new RE didn't leak oil and is extremely reliable - testament to the 10.000 miles I did on her in one year - the only issue I encountered with the bike is a flat tire. I prefer to ride my bike on the Irish back roads which in some areas can definitely compete with Indian roads :) It is how I decided on the name for my bike: "Badger", because no matter what weather, potholes, dirt track or even going through a field, Badger doesn't give a f*ck :)
I was dead set on a Triumph, wound up spending LESS on a Moto Guzzi V7 III once I discovered the brand. I guess it's safe to say Guzzis are the most authentic and true-to-history European motorcycle makers, Ducati being just behind them.
And guzzi are beautiful
Good video I'm not surprised that triumph are struggling as I tried to purchase a new bike in June from triumph Stratford-upon-Avon and was as welcome as covid 19! So I went to Ducati Aylesbury, wow! What a difference with their attertude, i purchased a new Mutistrada 950s and am very please with it. so thanks Triumph you done me a favour..👍
I purchased a Bonneville in 2001. I still own that bike. One of the main reason for buying it was not only did it look good, it was British made.................
I have owned 4 Hinckley Triumphs. First, a 2001 Bonnie, then a 2006 Bonnie. Moved to a Sprint GT because the Bonnies, while great bikes, just weren't suitable for covering the long distances here in Western Australia - more fuel range issue, than power. I have recently traded the GT on a 2014 Tiger Sport which ticks my boxes of comfort, height, range etc. I have also ridden a T120 and a Thruxton and enjoyed them both, but am not keen on the 270 degree crank. It may be smoother, but they don't sound or feel like a real British twin. Having said that, I'd love a Speed Twin but the price here is near $20, 500 on the road. They are a far superior bike as far as quality goes but are a lot more expensive than my "old" Bonnies. Despite being born in England and attending primary school 10 miles from the Hinckley factory, I like Triumphs for how they make me feel, rather than their country of origin - the fact that it's now Thailand doesn't bother me as a large proportion of 4-wheelers on Aussie roads are also made there. seemingly without problems.
Yes, the crank. They totally lost the plot with that.
@@Steve-pf7jl They've now gone and done it with some of the triples cranks!
Gone is the 120° crank with an even 1-3-2 firing order that goes all the way back to the BSA/Triumph threes. For 2020 it's now a 90°crank with a 1-3-2 firing. Going by published road tests it appears to be yet another (completely unnecessary) change that alters the whole character and feel of the bike!
Let's not forget Royal Enfield"s 100 million Pound investment in an R&D centre in the UK. Entirely designed in the UK and built abroad; makes Royal Enfield as British as Triumph at half the price. I also hear RE are hoovering up disillusioned Triumph design engineers.
Yeah i heard that too in motorcycle cycle news
@@jimmartin8586 The mechanical bits yes. But the thinking harks back to the mother load for it's inspiration. Ronn
I owned a Bonneville T100 2019 as my first "big bike", it was nice and all but just after a few months I find rust on the rear shocks and also on the wheels in certain places (Please note I always had my motorcycle under covers when parked). The brakes made annoying sounds. Maybe I am being picky but I paid a lot of money for that motorcycle and expected better. I was not convinced with the quality. Later on I decided to upgrade to a ~1200cc engine, test rode T120, Speed Twin and RNineT and eventually bought the RNineT. The quality is another level on the BMW. Personally, it doesn't bother me if they are made in Thailand but for real... putting all the flags everywhere and selling a british icon that is made in Thailand is just absurd.
Sorry to hear about the quality issues you have with BonnevilleT100. The squeaky sound of its braking system you talked about is well known if you did some research on the internet before you bought it. Triumph is a nice bike, but if you want bullet-proof quality you need to go for Japanese bikes.
Guess where the flags were made? John oz
Sadly , plenty of rust and early deterioration on modern day BMW 's also , just take a look at the sales Ads...
Sad to see what’s happening to Triumph. Apparently they decided to follow Harley’s lead. Right into the dustbin. Both brands will probably be around but owned by whom ? Harley’s dirty little secret is that a major portion of its parts are manufactured in China, shipped to a front company in the USA then assembled in Pennsylvania. Yes, it is made in America but with many foreign components. The new CEO thinks that concentrating on the large touring models which produce the largest profit will save the company. Forward into the past. Neither company is inspiring confidence.
Perhaps Harley and Triumph might merge....but alas....can the blind lead the crippled and vice versa?
Harley also have a factory in Thailand, not far from the Triumph factory.
Not being English (I'm Irish), I can't say I mind where Triumph builds their motorcycles; if they were an Irish ride, but built in (random choice) India, I don't think I'd mind. I do think Royal Enfield tries to be a 'British' motorcycle, in appearance and style, if not with as many Union Jacks, though I suppose the lower price tag makes that more palatable; said lower price tag isn't much lower than Triumph over here, though. Here in Canada (and North America in general), Triumphs cost less than most Harleys or Indians, the other major 'classic' makers in this part of the world; Harley is in pretty massive trouble right now, far worse than what you describe about Triumph (FortNine covered it just last week), whereas Triumph is still doing OK over here. For my money, I appreciate what Triumph offers, compared to other 'heritage' brands that put an even higher premium on 'paying for the name'. That doesn't excuse Triumph's issues, but I think short of companies making much cheaper (or simply far more) motorcycles, few companies are doing 'well' right now - the same goes for the auto industry, where car prices far exceed what most people can readily afford. Perhaps this is less a Triumph issue, and more an automotive industry in general issue? Cheers for the thoughtful video!
As ive been reporting for over 3 years Daniel Triumph were not in tune with their customers They've been going down hill for just over 3 years now, the Pandemic was simply the trigger.
@@stuartfillingham Can't agree, can't disagree. I think a lot of it has to do with geographic location. Next to the dumpster-fire that is Harley Davidson, Triumph looks brilliant. I'll agree with costs concerns about them, though... but I'm hard-pressed to find an alternative. BMW's usually cost more. Royal Enfield costs less, but stamped gear shifters and tin-can silencers, with wired-based throttle? Maybe it's a generation gap - I'm in my mid-thirties, I don't long for the days of old rides; I own a DMC-12 DeLorean sports car, I've got enough 'old vehicle' problems. I do appreciate your perspective - you've got a lot more experience seeing Triumph than I do.
@@stuartfillingham Have you seen the mess Harley Davidson is in, by the way? What is it with most (exclusively) motorcycle-making companies these days that they can't seem to keep themselves functional? Remarkable, really.
But Daniel, it's not a matter of you being Irish not caring about the value of the "Made in Britain" moniker, it's the fact that the manufacturer was trying to obfuscate the location of the manufacturing site. If my requirement for a product was that is made in outer Mongolia and a company was trying to lead me to believe the item I was about to purchase from them was made there, I would be rightly miffed if I later found out it was made in Clapham.
@@TheXeroid Ah someone got the point! thank you Paul!
Motorcycling's problem is its demographic. The average age of enthusiasts in this video is about 55, with a good percentage well north of that age. The Anglophone market for Harleys and Triumphs is frankly, dying off. The future of motorcycle manufacturing will be in areas where they are still popular, like India. If they deign to make models for Sunday riders and bike polishers in Britain, we should count ourselves fortunate.
Borderlands: It’s not that I disagree, but here’s the rub. As an ol’fart motorcyclist fifty years in the running, it’s only been the last decade or so after my retirement that I’ve had the time and money to buy products that weren’t related to my family’s food, shelter and entertainment. During that decade I’ve bought three new and one almost new motorcycles. So yeah, I do believe Triumph has to consider - but not be driven by - my demographic.
years ago you could avoid tax by importing parts rather than a complete bike as per Slater Brothers and Laverda, Bloor better get production back in UK
The over use of the union flag ( to give it its proper moniker) by Triumph makes me miffed , almost bordering on quite cross ! Perhaps it's to keep the customer all dewy eyed with nostalgia so you can't see the price tag until it's too late ? It's similar to seeing BMW built Mini's that have a full range of union flag accessories fill our roads although I believe they are built in the UK? Is that all we've become a nostalgia theme park for foreign brands to trade on our past ? How pathetic we've become 😞
BMW do a similar thing with the Mini.
BMW do indeed do the same thing with the mini. The really curious thing however, is that Triumph is originally a German brand, being first produced near Berlin by herr Guttmann. Original German triumphs could still be seen at the motorcycle museum near Bad Oynerhausen, run by Jorg Rust, who was a former mechanic to Dieter Braun. In my time with Avon Tyres I was privileged to meet him and tour the museum. I am not sure if it is still there. This seemingly make the current hypocrisy of Union Jack waving even more annoying
MG do the same.
I'm afraid it's been like that for a decades already. As the economist and broadcaster Evan Davis once put it 'Britain has become the butler to the world'.
I think it's somewhat late to be worrying about this. Check out Grace's industrial guide... The UK has long since de-industrialised.
Good work Stuart. I thought it was just me who thought Triumph were in trouble. I also agree as I have said on my videos that Royal Enfeild filled a huge gap with the 650s that Triumph were always and still missing. A decade from now will they still be here?? Moving production to Thailand makes sense for that reason , but they will have to stop leaning on the whole "British bike" thing if that's the case. Keep up the good work. Thanks E.R
Sort of. Except that they won't capture much of the Asian market unless they make cheap utility bikes in the 50 to as much as 200cc range that are reliable and have many crossover parts to older models.
@@Gilespargiter Agreed, but I expect they think they are above that unfortunately. They are trying to go to the top of the market and leaving their main genre and loyal following behind all four the sake of chasing high figures.
not a real triumph, so no real loss...
I'm not in the market these days, but if I was, I'd buy a Royal Enfield over a triumph any day. I agree, Triumph seems to have lost their way.
I probably would go Enfield too, if I didnt already have the2016 T120 from new which I love and I feel was before triumph were getting greedy?
Another corporation that has chased the cheap labour and friendly taxation to sunnier climes.
These are not British bikes now and should cost much less than they do.
Stuart, I respect your opinions in this video and the comments by fellow subscribers. But as I'm a Speed Triple RS owner I bought it purely on it's appeal on it's looks, performance and how it makes you the rider feel when you take it out for a spin or even just to pop your head into the garage to have a look at her. It's a sad time to see manufacturing leave it's homeland but that seems to be a current norm for most companies over the last 40 years. Royal Enfield weathered the storm and have survived through it all. As an ex pat living in Oz I still see my bike as a beautiful piece of engineering. Fingers crossed people will still buy Triumphs for their looks etc. After all isn't that why we all became bikers? Cheers from Melbourne. 👍
What a fantastic summary of the situation. Triumph sold out on the very thing that they had been trading on for years "their Britishness"
Very well explained Stuart.
Brian, you've hit the nail squarely on the head there mate an absolutely 100% accurate summary.
I'm still angry at Triumph for not making the Trophy any longer.It is great bike as I have 30k on my 2014 model.When it comes time for a new one I'll have to look at another brand.
Your absolutely on the button with this video Stuart. You understand the British motorcycling public very well and encapsulated Triumphs position perfectly.
I’ve owed 3 triumph Bonneville and beat the Hell out of them. They never disappoint and always kickass. All pre 2005. Triumph has made some awesome stuff.
I bought a 2019 Bonneville speedmaster ..it’s my 13th bike in life and my 3rd Bonneville .. I was a little concerned about being made in Thailand but , I bought one anyway and I’m glad I did .. it’s a well made bike .. I don’t care where it’s made only that it’s well made .. it’s the perfect bike for the price ..
To be fair the workmanship in Thailand is very good, my 2013 Honda PCX was built there and just like any other Honda it's totally dependable.
Why buy a made in Thailand overpriced bike when you can buy a cheaper, more reliable, and made in Japan Japanese bikes? Its a no brainer. Also when I went to MCN most of the bikers there were hovering in their 50s. I'm in my late 20s and it's sad to see how this is a dying culture.
@ikra It's even sadder for us long time riders who experienced the haydays of the '70s when every teenager owned a Honda CB350 and the CB750 was a huge bike that everyone looked up to. Damn, I wish I still had my Kawasaki Z1-R.
Shame - I hope they pull back. I just bought a Triumph (Speed Twin) - first one I've ever had. I bought it simply because I wanted a twin cylinder naked bike with plenty of accessible (i.e. low-mid range) grunt, good handling and not too much weight. Not much in that market really - came down to Triumph or Ducati and I liked the Triumph better. If Honda were to put their Africa Twin motor in a roadster frame I imagine that would be a serious contender too (not least because it would almost certainly be cheaper), as would KTM if only they could get away from their star-wars design . In short I bought the bike on its own merits and would happily do so again.
I must admit that I was somewhat surprised when I drove past the massive brand new Triumph factory , on my way out of Bangkok about 10 yrs ago .
I really don't care where they are made but you should not blame import duties for the high prices of the British market bikes . Australia has a free trade agreement with Thailand , and Triumphs are just as expensive here.
Vehicle manufacturers have been moving to Thailand for years , most of the Japanese car brand's ( and Ford's )small car and pick up ranges are produced there . Why ? Because they offer low cost , high quality manufacturing .
The reason I baulk at buying Thai built vehicles , 2 or 4 wheeled , is that I can buy a Hilux (for example) in Thailand for half the price I would pay in Australia . I know that there are other factors involved , but I feel that to a large extent that my wallet is being gouged .
Triumph pays no local (Thai) duties on the bikes they export from Thailand but are hit with massive duties for any bikes they sell into the Thai market so a Triumph is just as expensive in Thailand as in OZ or the UK.
When a company goes the low cost manufacturing route and passes the savings on to their customers , it's a good thing . Triumph has gone the other way , and any savings they have made have gone straight onto their bottom line or onto marketing themselves as a "premium" brand.
I still love the bikes , but I will never buy.a new one .
well said!
In a nutshell. You hit it.
All I wanted was a 650 twin that goes like the clappers and doesn't leak oil.
I think Kawasaki have one in the Classic British style. Possibly only available in Japan …
My last two bikes have been Triumph, and they are awesome, I love the brand.
I would pay a premium to support the British brand, but now I as likely to by Triumph, as I am any other brand.
Other companies are doing the same, Kriga have been made in Germany for a number of years.
my sentiments exactly...
With snowflakes introducing even more ethanol into our petrol the establishment is trying to kill off traditional motorcycles anyway in Europe.
Not built in the UK is a massive put off for street cred and purchasers. Bad move Triumph!
@Bob moving out of England doesn't mean fake, then going by the same reasoning nike and adidas too would be fake, because they are made in vietnam, indonesia, philipines or malaysia
last year when I bought my continental GT the dealership was full of Bonneville trade ins from owners who had jumped over to Royal Enfield. The dealer reckoned he had, had more Triumphs traded in that month than he had seen in the last 5 years. I knew then that Triumph was headed for hard times.
Could be a good opportunity to pick up a value Triumph.
Here in Argentina the Bonneville T100 2019 cost 17574 GBP, you can live nicely 3 years with that money.
Built in Britain was their only USP, even if many parts need to be sourced from Asia
I am an old rider from the land down under and have a 1200 Speedmaster and loving it! I don't care where it is made as long as quality control is present.
The Triumph brand deserves a better deal than what happened to the MG marque....”would you like soya sauce with that Sir?”...Sad!!
So sad it ain't made in Britain anymore. I was slowly saving for one 😢
Your correct uncle Stu ,a british marque with a Thai flag . I have a german table saw the sticker on the side says made in Taiwan. At the end of the day it is greed that drive these companies and that will be their downfall.
It’s actually commercial reality. Just about everything we use daily is partially or wholly outsourced. It’s the quality of oversight that counts and Triumph has done well in this regard.
To those that are blissfully unaware that we now live in a global economy, things are often made elsewhere . A BMW made in Vietnam is still a BMW. The build quality is excellent on the T-120 and I’ve owned mine since 2016. And yes, it’s assembled in Thailand. As for the price point, they’re probably about where they should be and you could buy 2 for the price of a Harley, which also has a lot of overseas manufactured components, despite the cognitive dissonance of their core customers. I’d really like my T-120 to have been made in England but it’s not. But it still reminds me of the bikes I rode as a teen and it still fulfils every expectation. I’ve even had a Harley snob allude to this fact while mounting his machine of dubious origin, but I also own a Meriden Triumph and know which one I prefer for extended and reliable operation. But Triumph are guilty of of providing overchoice (Alvin Toffler - Future Shock 1970) with the proliferation of new models. The RE’s have richly deserved their popularity with the 650’s but I can’t help but think they’ll eventually be the subject of similar opprobrium when they stop being the new best thing. Authenticity is often subjective.
Dave Johnson I think the problem is like you say too many models but more importantly too focused. They have focussed too much on the grey hair pound and this demographic is dwindling. Triumph means nothing to the under 50’s so there main market is pushing 60. As pointed out to me this is why they can charge so much.
If they want to survive they need to go back to cheaper simple bikes that appeal to the younger rider. But the marketing department won’t like that ad they see it as diluting the brand same old crap mentality that will cost them dearly.
No I dont think people are unaware of the consequences of a global economy Dave, but I think they do object to being misled as to what they are buying. Hence the big bike cancellation incident in February , and that was basically the only point I was making regarding the machines origins.
Scott and Stuart, I agree with you both. I’m 61 and remember the bikes of my youth and wanted to have the good parts of those days without the realities of maintaining 1930’s technology. In this Triumph has succeeded probably beyond Mr Bloors imagination. 10000km service intervals, excellent power on demand, good brakes, handling and reliability that just wasn’t possible back then. But my demographic is passing and the new generation isn’t buying motorcycles in the same way we did. RE cleverly recognised a demand for simplicity, but this may be just a result of the demands of their home market, and deserves the success these bikes are enjoying. But we have all contributed to the inability of Western nations to compete in our expectations of wages and living standards and in the purchase of discounted goods, many of which are now easily as good as could be produced back home. The recognition of quality control and consumer satisfaction is becoming more real and an RE now is better than ever. Hopefully India, South Africa, South America and SE Asia will step up to win their share of the market in the wake of China’s aggressive posturing. As for me, I’d love a brand new BSA Rocket 3 with decent brakes , ignition and maybe 900-1000cc of reliable power. Maybe a Norton Commando that didn’t require a mortgage. I wouldn’t care if it was made in Madras , Manaus or Bloemfontein if it did what it said on the packet. British oversight should guarantee this.
@@scottcampbell9466 i dont think the daytona is aimed at older riders. I was in a dealership in houston last week and there was a 20 something couple there test riding a t100. He rode a sportster so he probably wasnt typical. But he was blown away by the triumph. The saleman even said it scared him. His words.
It is sad to see great home grown brands which are not just brands but pride of the land's sons. Stuart your stories have been great to hear and feel true from the heart. Keep biking. I liked the royal field's interceptor bike reviews of yours. Being an Indian, I am proud of made in India motorcycle loved by many of the bikers who love simple motorcycle speaking to the riders than taking all the decisions because of the fancy electronics. Keep biking mate and stay healthy and safe from the Virus.
These days with all the police, cameras, drones and helicopters about all you need to know is how fast you are going.
Young ppl are happy enough with their sim racing rigs. No car insurance, repair cost. No dui or pot checks either.
it's a heartbreak, but here in Wisconsin (U.S.A.) we've had four Triumph dealers close their doors for good in recent years. Service calls are now a one and a half to two hour commute, and nowhere to "hang out". Hope Triumph can get this straightened out. Love the brand, love the history!!!
The closest shop to me is in Oshkosh, WI...I've been thinking about trading in my Ducati Supersport for a Speed Twin or Street Triple. This might have to be put on hold for a few years to see how things plays out.
I own both a Royal Enfield Interceptor and a water cooled Triumph Bonneville, I like both bikes, in my view, both manufacturers trade on their heritage. The Interceptor is a fine motorcycle without any bells and whistles, built down to a price with a much smaller engine than the Triumph don’t forget. The water cooled Triumph Bonneville though is a much better motorcycle all round, with the exception of the brakes, which are both on a par in my view. With regards to Customers not wanting all the trick bits, that’s what the old Meridian company said about Japanese bikes having indicators, flashing lights are for Christmas trees they used to say! We can’t stand still, the world changes, we have to move on or you know what happens.
Simply put, the Bonneville is a great product, but it is in no way worth 3 times the price of the interceptor. Triumphs stated customer base requirements are completely opposed by the very success of the bonneville. The rocket iii was the only innovative thing they have done, and, if they continue in this vane, they will die the death very quickly
Which Triumph are you referring to? As good as the RE might be they simply are not equal to say a T-120 or any of the triples. It’s apples and oranges. Nobody was hating on Triumph until RE bought out their very capable 650. When they bring out something that matches the build quality , performance and unobtrusive but useful technology of the Triumphs and still do it for 1/3 the retail price I will indeed be impressed. The 1200 liquid cooled engine was years in development and ended up smaller in overall outline than many of the earlier carburetted Hinkley twins and you don’t regard that as innovative? It’s a great design and lends itself to further development and is only hamstrung by emission regulations. They got it right.
Gareth Temple yep, this is true. The Interceptor isn’t that cheap considering they’re made in India paying people Indian wages. You could argue that British built Triumph’s were incredibly well priced given they’re a superior machine and the costs involved in producing them in this country.
Mark Nicholas
Well I think that accolade is probably more true of the Suzuki Bandit
The fact that the motorcycle market as a whole is shrinking...marketing mistakes are even more devastating!
Good clear explanation, as usual - thanks! The wife has a Street Twin, but I'll be getting an Interceptor...
I think I'm going to go with the Enfield when I feel it's time to exchange my Tiger unless Triumph can get to grips with the branding, range and price.
You'll love the Interceptor!
I have the greatest respect for Stuart and accept his analysis completely. Ford poorly handled Jaguar and Land Rover; Tata has led the resurgence globally. I think that if the Triumph fails it will be purchased by Tata or someone like them. If you watch utube vids from overseas you can see that it has great presence in developing countries. Hoping we see a happy ending, but it will likely be different than today. BTW totally agree with him about the hubris of management, the success of RE, and the idiocy of all the models Triumph is carrying.
Sounds like the ideal new venture for Stewart Garner.....
Spot on Stuart. I love my 2009 Bonneville ($3500.00) with 4000 miles, I purchased 6 months ago. I’ve had many Triumphs over the years (‘69’ Trophy 650, ‘71’ Trophy 500, ‘2000’ C model, 2008 Tiger. All have been used at a reasonable price. Triumph has indeed lost its way building bloated, ever larger cc’s for what. It’s not what the buyer wants. Trim the Bonnie down 100 pounds, go back to air cooled, drop the 1200 cc etc. Give us the Triumph that made the original company famous.
Triumph needs a back to basics "babie" bonneville.
We were saying that in the mid-70's....the more things change, the more they remain the same!!
i have to say the Bonneville is out dated and no one really wants to buy one. The styling is 1970 or 1966 or so, it has not changed for 75 years. i do believe they could make a come back with a cafe racer style motorcycle if they lower the exhaust under the bike and make it more comfortable to ride, including the seat and the suspension, maybe try a mono shock on the rear and longer suspension struts on the front like the baha cross country vehicles of the desert racers.
I love triumph motor cycles. I admit...the idea of my triumph being manufactured anywhere but England hurts the brand. I think my 2020 Speed Triple is from the UK. I named her Daphne Hinkley. I am now reconsidering my next purchase which was going to be a 2020 TFC Bobber. I dont want that bike anymore. just looks dumb with the Union Jacks knowing it came from anywhere else...especially an Asian country.
By God Stu you articulate my thoughts on this subject perfectly. I refuse to be hoodwinked by Triumph's faux patriotism. If they were made in the UK by British workers I'd have one in a heartbeat and hang the extra cost. Once again you cast a sober eye over a contentious debate and clearly state your case. I always look forward to your videos.
Looks like your Royal Enfield needed turn signal canceller
If only they listened to customers instead of designers and accountants. You can fool some of the people all of the time etc. Shame on them.
Your absolutely right about Triumph, it's bewildering how many models there are in their line up, Triumph dealerships are a great place to scratch ones head.
The change from the outside world would indeed appear to be just after the introduction of the bonnie. It's massive success was as much a surprise to the company as to other in the industry. However it was in mid 2004 when the real and defined change happened, when a new addition to the triumph team (Bruno Tagliaferri) identified 5 distinct customer groups. The company had been focused on what he termed the 'traditionalist' but would now become focused on the 'specialist'. This type of customer would be more lifestyle focused, a collector, younger. The entire bike range and business focus would change to reflect this. They would no longer be selling bikes they would be selling an experience. I sat their dutifully watching his presentation thinking 'what about our existing customers' as did many of us. At this time sports bike, sports/tourer sales were disappearing and these would be the first casualties. At this time frames had just started to be assembled/welded in Thailand along with our paint shop which had transferred in about 2000 ish. I did not enjoy working for Triumph and left at the end of 2004 after working there for 5 years. The one good asset the company had were its shop floor employees who I have to say were absolute marines with a 'can do' attitude of a level I have since never seen in the work place. Often giving up their spare family time to help the company . This for me is why this news is such a disappointment. Hopefully those that have lost their jobs will find other employment soon.
@Jam Jarchannel - It sounds far too familiar when compared to the British motorcycle industry and workers in the '60s and '70s loosing there jobs and loosing an industry.
This is all about British Companies making quick profits, it is cheaper to make them outside of the UK but it does not make their Bikes cheaper to buy for their customers. I went to this years MCN show and to be honest I could not believe the prices that the Triumphs were being posted at, I am retiring this year and was on the look out for a new 600/650 machine at a reasonable price. I so wanted to buy British having previously had a 900 Bonneville which was way to more of a machine than I needed, when I chanced upon the Interceptor and without looking at the makers name I knew this was the bike. It was only when my son said "you know this is an Indian Royal Enfield" that I fell in, he said have you seen the price and I expected £8k plus but no just over £6k. Why are Triumphs so much more expensive when they are made outside of the UK just like the RE, just like Triumph the RE's are designed in the UK!
I guess the price is high as moving plants to foreign country is expensive,RE have been in india forever...you can get parts of RE bike which was made in 1950s(my grandpa's police service bike) as well & like everywhere ,so cost to manufacture RE is way to low
Triumph prices will reduce once thai prod line will stabalise
Thank you Stuart for your video. It ticked a few boxes with me. There are so many 1200cc powered different models it was getting to be a bit of a TURDUCKEN experience to go and look at the Triumph dealers for what is "new" but Triumph fixed that in Sydney we went from 5 dealers to only 1 now. The dealers gave up and moved on this year. The one I used to use said that the bar was put too high for them to keep on dealing Triumphs any more. It sounded like a nightmare.
I had the first retro Bonneville when it came out I did 40,000 ks before I wrote it off ( My Fault "dickhead vs truck ") next I had a T100 for 10,000 ks. I traded it in on a T120 Black and 60,000k's later it has not missed a beat eg Sydney to Perth in 4.5 days. I have decatted it put a motodemic LED headlight, cruise control ( awesome , saves my licence 1 a fortnight ) and a screen with a touring seat.
I still have 2 1970's Norton Commandos and a T160V that I like to ride.
However I am happy to ride my T120 in extremes of weather ( + 40 C down to snow on the road ) . Even in Sydney peak hour through to the outback the T120 has been the bee's knee's. I so love the riding position
I was told about the "lemon chicken thing" before I brought the T120 I just thought it was globalisation.
We are bereft of any motorcycle factories downunder.
I'm looking forward to TVS sorting Norton out maybe that's the future for Triumph post Corona.
Thanks again Stewart for your videos
A major reason why so many British automobile brands (to include car makers) are going under/being bought up by foreign companies is because they are simply not targeting the sections of the market that lend well to scale & numbers (middle, lower-middle price range especially if considering exports) enough. Sure targeting just the upper-middle & high-end price ranges probably lends well to ensuring higher profit margins (look at margins of Ferrari compared to someone like Fiat or Ford) but it doesn't give them the stability and revenues needed to sustain bigger operations. Which is why the companies/holdings that own these niche brands seek to get rid of them at the first sign of major trouble. Once they go to new owners, a lot depends on whether that owner seeks to use-and-throw the brand for the margins it can bring in over a limited time, or rather reform and build it up into a more stable operation, like what Tata did to JLR (making them more like BMW where they begin getting into a wider price range rather than just remain within a niche, especially Jaguar).
P.S. For future reference, I believe the second J in Bajaj is not silent, so its not pronounced Baja but the full Bajaj.
Love your content - especially helpful are the ones about custom parts!
I love my Triumph Bonneville T100, I bought it brand new back in March of this year and it has just had it's Run-In-Service completed. I'm new to this style of bike as always been Sportsbike rider, I still am but added this Triumph to the garage too. In fact, your channel and your T120 was one of the things that inspired me to try it out. I was originally thinking of a Royal Enfield Interceptor 650, but after seeing them in the flesh, as nice as they are, I could see and feel the difference in fit and finish between it and the Triumph. So I paid a bit more and managed to get a great deal on the Bonnie, and bought the full retro kit to go with it, most of it your recommendations on your vids : ) There are a lot of businesses (multinationals) out there that I wouldn't have dreamt to have struggled in this situation that are because of Covid-19, so it just highlights how close to the wire businesses operate these days. I wish Triumph all the very best, I would hate to see them go down as I think they're one of the coolest motorcycle brands out there at the minute and I'm personally loving their designs. I'm in my late 30's but really enjoying this retro style and look.
I sold my bonnie and bought a royal Enfield interceptor and oh boy what a bike it knocks spots of the bonnie looks and did you know ex triumph people designed the interceptor engine in Britain you could have bought two interceptors and gone on holiday with the rest you saved.
Thanks for that video.
I did not know about the Thailand gig for Triumph Motorcycles.
But then again i am living under a rock .
It is a common issue: Many companies that have been struggling for some years are now using the current pandemic as a scapegoat to allow them to downsize or close without taking any personal responsibilty
The last completely British made Bonneville was the 2006 model. Starting in 2007 the 865 cc engine was assembled in GB and shipped to Thailand to be installed in frames made locally.
Triumph have some competitively priced motorcycles in most areas - street triple and tiger models etc.. but the Enfield Interceptor introduction means Triumph will have to reassess its bonneville pricing or lose quite a lot of customers. Enfield has significant economies of scale in its Indian operations (and overseas manufacturers are hampered by high import duties) and that along with lower indian cost base means that continuing UK manufacture seems fanciful. (Don't see Norton as anything other than niche).
If you have a limited cap ex spend on your manufacturing operations then its unsurprising that Thailand gets the nod.
For me I want simple with high quality control (i.e. not a BMW). My T100 has been rock solid but I understand other peoples experiences haven't been the same.
Spot on! I bought a bonneville T100 in 2008 (last of the carbs) because I was burning out in my commute in Los Angeles. The bike was $4,000 less expensive than a Harley and Honda was not making their CB's at the time. Runs great other than the never ending oil leak at the head gasket. Breaks are not the best. But all in all made the commute fun. Also always receive many complements on the bike. I think most of the bikes were made in Thailand at the time. The place where I purchased the bike indicated that the plant in England was mostly for R&D and show but like most of the competitors alot of bikes were made in Tailand.
Half the reason why the royal enfield 650s have been such a success is down to price which whats lets triumph down, way to expensive for what they are. If they were all made in britain then perhaps they could justify the prices
Hear,hear.
I've always been a loyal Triumph customer. I still own a 1994 Speed and a wonderful Thunderbird Sport. A couple of years ago, when I moved to Singapore, I bought a Bonneville T120. Sadly, it's probably the worst Triumph I've ever owned. Still a wonderful bike, indeed, but with a number of flaws. I spent quite a long time trying to solve a few appalling problems: squeaking brakes, poor set up (I know, it's dealer's fault, but the dealer is still in the Triumph family...). The most striking difference with the old Hinckley models, however, is the poor quality of the materials. After a couple of months engine's alloy was already pitted; after a while chrome was rusting, almost peeling away; the battery died in six months. I'm not from the UK, but I've always been a great admirer of British bikes. My TBird Sport is still there, waiting for me at home in Europe: it only takes to charge the battery and inflate the tyres, and after almost 100.000 km she still runs perfectly. Not a single spot of rust. The same is true for the 1971 Norton Commando I've used as my main, everyday bike for more than 25 years. When I bought my T120 I was looking for another good, authentic and reliable piece of British technology: I hate to say this, but I'm not sure I got it
Thanks. Sad. Get a w 650. Does the job and you can kickstart it.
Triumph has totally left the 250-750cc segment unattended. And RE took advantage of it. They are making more bikes based on their 650cc platform.
In an interview with an Indian UA-cam channel, RE CEO said that they will launch 1 bike every quarter for upcoming 2-3 years starting with Meteor 350cc in June or july.
Although Triumph said their first 200-250cc bike developed with Bajaj ( will be made in India) is on track and will come out next year.
Let's wait and watch
bajaj has already tried to penetrate classic bike section with bajaj V ,and it failed,i think it is their safe attempt to try again
If you have read,bajaj will be making bike but stamp would be of triumph
I think bajaj is trying to compete with RE in india,same approach as Hero - harley or mahindra jawa bikes(failure)
@@rajuseth1683
Actually Bajaj has already cleared that no Bajaj products will come out of this partnership.
Bajaj will make bikes designed by Triumph so that they are affordable.
Also they said it will be a 200cc under 2 lakh.
Do u think people will pay 2 lakh for a 200cc even if it is a triumph.( Although people pay 2 lakh for RC200, but that's a sports bike )
Also this time it's not bajaj, it's Triumph who's trying to enter into enfield's territory coz 650 twins have affected Triumph sales internationally.
Personally I don't think I will replace my Enfield with a triumph as of now
@subhashishbanerjee true bajaj is good in low end sports,but let see if acquiring norton gives them the boost
@subhashishbanerjee oh sorry
I wish they made smaller cc bikes at an affordable price.They don’t build any 125cc bikes for learners.
I think Triumph would be wise to hire someone with your way of thinking Rachel.
I'm a brand-new rider. Bought a 2009 Triumph Bonneville 865cc and I can assure you that that bike is plenty easy to learn on. And damn sexy too.
@@jeffrygagnon5506 Take it easy Jeff. I wasn't trying to get on anyone's case and you act like stating my personal experience is somehow offensive. I'm allowed a personal opinion as a new or any other rider, and I'm willing to bet other new riders might appreciate another new rider's thoughts and perspective. It's likely being familiar with manaul trans on cars helped. Also having self-restraint and a healthy respect for power and the unknown, (something of a lost art it seems these days) helps. And I have dropped it already. Well, not dropped it so much as it slipped on wet leaves at about 1/2mph on a really wide turn and slowly fell into the grass.
@@redrumcoke2363 I have the a 2010 T100 have to admit its a bike with enough power to be fun but not quite enough to get you in to too much trouble! Ignore the Ranters some people do get a little emotional at times!
look for a Hyosung GV250. Friend of mine just bought a brand new 2016 for $1,800! It's a cruiser style bike, v-twin like a Harley. Very easy to drive and handle. 27" seat height. 250cc 5 speed. fuel injection. Very nice bike.
The Harley Davidson model is not the one to follow as it has led to the near bankruptcy of that company.
I have built and ridden Triumph motorcycles for over 50 years and I can tell you that a Taiwanese Triumph will not ever grace my garage. Mr. Fillingham is quite correct when he states that Royal Enfield is now filling the market for a light weight, well built motorcycle at an affordable price.
It's not only the customers who are asking for electronics for bikes. Euro 5 standards require also quite much of stuff on driver aids and engine management side making everything more complicated and expensive.
I think Triumph is relying too heavily on retro bikes now. Maybe they sell now but it's probably just older customers like on harley and some fashion thing with hipsters that is going to probably go away with in couple years. I would like to see completely new Speed Triple that is actually competitive with bikes like Ducati Street Fighter and Super Duke. It's been almost the same bike now something like 15 years while everybody else have been busy.
Yup. Retro sells strongly as the original customers age into retirement.
But what to sell them when they move into nursing homes? :-(
There will always be a market for retro styled motorcycles. They just look too good.
You're welcome, specially made for you
They are repeating the error that caused the original demise of the British bike industry.
I own a T120 (have done since 2018) and I enjoy riding it, but a few months back I bought a Royal Enfield Classic 500 and am having a total ball on it! It receives way more interest and compliments than my Triumph, which took me by surprise, but the essence is, as has been said, it’s ’basic’ motoring. Along with that comes pure biking joy, the less is more philosophy!? And at £10’600 for a T120 et al, they’re pushing the concept of ‘cheap motorcycling’ out the window, that part of their historical provenance seems to have been conveniently forgotten. Maybe they should build a classic single similar to the REC500? They have it in their DNA. But price it better than their current range, and without the unnecessary whistles ‘n bells! Nice video, thank you.
I totally agree. Royal Enfield is looking better every day. Their new Twins are nice bikes.
I have been off the same opinion as you for a while, Stuart. I have owned Triumps for more than 20 years and will never willingly give up my Thunderbird tripe. I did realise that since my bike was manufactured that Triumph had moved a lot of production to Thailand. This, in itself, did not put me off and have long thought about buying a Bonnie.
What did put me pff was the way that the Bonnie changed from being a delighfully simple mid range bike to a bloated, liquid cooled behemoth. Four years ago I ought an air/oil cooled BMW 1200RT instead. I have covered a lot of mileage on this bike and have had some fun. That said the BMW is a bitch to home service, is heavy and has a quality of finish well below my 1996 Thunderbird.
I still hankered after a mid range motorcycle that looked good, was straight forward to service, handled well and had good, durable components. In April of this year I decided that I could afford and sorely wanted, a Royal Enfield Interceptor. If it were not for Covid I would already have ordered this machine. No rush at the moment as I am awaiting eye surgery and cannnot ride until my sight is sorted. My final, cast iron, decision was, in no small part, to your detailed coverage f this model in your videos.
You are spot on in your analysis of the demographics, I am a rider with 40 plus years experience, am British, want a mid range bike, don.t want liquid cooling and I am a Triumph rider. A natural customer the Triumph board of directors must have thought. I bear them no particular ill will but think they have lost the plot, as you do. It is their actions that have resulted in me deciding that a Royal Enfield is the rational choice for one such as me.
Yep, that truth has been bouncing around in my brain since I learned where they were made and I'm thinking "a new Suzuki Bandit can be had for $7,200" . Now, should I be suspicious of the Bandit or Triumph?
I just bought a Bonnie a few days ago and the dealer said they were selling like crazy. There was at least 8 or 9 bikes with sold signs waiting for delivery. Harleys are the ones not selling right now in PA
@@Cuzzazbuzz Yep I had to make an appointment a week ahead just to go look at a bike, hey good luck with your new Speed Twin.
Ah thats the triumph spin machine! yet Triumphs official statement is that they are 65% down in sales!
@@stuartfillingham I'm sure you are correct, either way I just took my first ride on my new T100 and it is everything you said it was. It's an amazing piece of machinery
Wow bit of an eye opener. I still thought they were made in the UK and I won’t be the only one. Always like to support British made goods if possible even if they’re not market leaders. The comment about not being able to stay Brit built cos we can’t make (install) the electronics but Thailand can seems bs to me. Be upfront and honest, the public would respect you more for it