Trans Women in Sports: Is It Fair?
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- Опубліковано 10 лют 2025
- Support my content on Patreon: / roberttolppi
In light of the first openly transgender woman, Laurel Hubbard, competing in this years Olympic games, I thought I would bring up the topic of trans women competing in women's sports.
Further reading/sources (sorry for janky citations will fix):
How does hormone transition in transgender women change body composition, muscle strength and haemoglobin? Systematic review with a focus on the implications for sport participation
Joanna Harper and others
Transgender women in sport
Bianchi, Andria
Trans Women in elite sport: scientific and ethical considerations
Taryn Knox,
Lynley C Anderson,
Alison Heather
Sport and Transgender People: A Systematic Review of the Literature Relating to Sport Participation and Competitive Sport Policies
Jones, Bethany Alice ; Arcelus, Jon ; Bouman, Walter Pierre ; Haycraft, Emma
Transgender and Intersex Athletes and the Women’s Category in Sport
Pam R. Sailors
Transgender Women in the Female Category of Sport: Perspectives
on Testosterone Suppression and Performance Advantage
Emma N. Hilton (probably a TERF)
Tommy R. Lundberg
It’s super important to acknowledge that testosterone levels are NOT the only determining factor in deciding if there is an advantage or not.
he acts like they are because it benefits his argument
Yea this people here are absolutely stupid how do you not realize theres a advantage
@Hadf Josso yep
@@Audio-qe7cs not the only one, but a MAJOR one.
@@riichobamin7612 so major that it’s basically the deciding factor
I wish you could comment on the African cis women runners who were disqualified from the Olympics due to high level of testosterone
Yeah, i feel really bad for them as well as the probably hundreds of trans women who cant compete either. It sucks when you cant really do anything to control these
@@ducc0287 idk whats the way forward
transphobia also impacts cis women and intersex women
@@eshaxcx I mean can you imagine what is next now that we opened this pandora box of bullshit - next black men are not able to compete in running since they dominated this field for decades - biological advantages due to genetics have always been a thing - but somehow testosterone was picked as the be all end all
@@laylah150 could you explain?
I feel like you’re specifically avoiding a certain argument. The argument is that when these trans women were pre-transition, they were nowhere CLOSE to being world record athletes. Then, when they transition, they’re magically talented enough to compete for world records? That’s what really doesn’t make any sense to me in terms of fairness in particular...
laurel hubbard was a high level lifter before transitioning. what are u on about?
@@samvoll3584 yeah like whatre they talking about…
I get what you’re saying. Most of these advantages cis men have over cis women are measured by comparing the scores of men’s records to that of the women’s records, so unless these record holders in the men’s category were the trans women in question, there’s no way to assume the underlying advantages are as large because it’s not the most elite athletes who have formerly competed in men’s sports that have historically transitioned.
@@samvoll3584 they aren’t talking specifically about Laurel hubbard
@@woahdatsnoice188 i understand, but the big olympic stink being made is about laurel hubbard, so i was just pointing that hubbard in particular was actually a high level athlete before transitioning
"we tolerate that some cis women have biological advantage over other women."
*Side eyes the Olympics*
Wellllll...
Actually not, everyone cheats in the Olympics... especially members of the G7. China especially *cough* but the G7 also makes sure that the other countries don't use their best athletes. So I don't know why all of the sudden a transexual woman is a threat. For example: They use small things thay make a huge difference like long distance running by making sure the poorest countries use the longest track.
@@Mariet31 Exactly a male body has slight advantange not enough to run home about there are barely any women who meet the standards of the navy seals this is not sexism this tested through hell week years of development on torturous standards to mold great and painful soldiers sometimes a competition of strength is better than a long winded study of science I know I am hypocritical here cause how is simple feats of strength better than policy and opinion well the strength isn't everything but to kill many and function your mental strength and survival will count in battle as a efficient killer who will win and survive.
@@Mariet31 The idea that women that are biological at birth considered those that aren't biologically birthed as a female to be considered part of the same culture. The reason is because there are differences that scientist either overlook or don't take into account for example how long has the individual that was biologically male has had its body parts affected by testosterone. Thus transsexual women are considered a cultural threat as they threaten everything women abolitionist and women's suffrage rights activists fought for. Biological women fought for their cultural space among men, but for some reason the trans community can't create their own cultural space that is separate from biological women.
When you think about it transexual women are invading the culture of biological women.
Transexual men don't appear to threaten the culture of biological men and if anything there really isn't an issue in that department because testosterone comes off more balance among all men regardless of biological or non biological nature.
Because they are females.
@@Mariet31 Ones with longest track start from ahead compared to inner tracks so the total length is equal.
So if the data is inconclusive, the current question is what should be done in the meantime whilst the data is not available, and what are the consequences of the decision? E.g. if they don’t allow it, and trans women are biologically similar enough to cis women then this is unfair to trans women, alternatively, they allow trans women in women’s sports and then it is found they have a biological advantage, does that mean medals won by trans athletes are retroactively removed and given to cis women? The whole situation is a mess!
Im glad someone has taken account for both sides of the arguement, i like this take
I think the consequences if there is an advantage and trans women are included in that cis women who would have qualified would not have been able to compete in the first place.
My problem is people using the study of their preference to prove their point (based on their personal beliefs). No one wants to admit is inconclusive and both sides somehow have definitive studies. Yeah... it's a mess. But good luck having doctors and scientists to admit that we know shit about hormones and how it fully affects our body. Don't get me started on how they can't agree how it actually affects our brains.
It’s complicated. Transphobia one side, willful ignorance of sexual dimorphism on the other. I personally believe a simple answer for now anyways, is to split sports into groups; ones that sexual dimorphism plays a significant part in, enough that it is unfair for cis women and men to compete together, and ones in which sexual dimorphism does not play a significant part in it, and in which differences in scoring is negligible between the sexes. There’s a lot of potential solutions, but each pisses someone off. Another solution would be to differentiate the sports not by male and female, but by people assigned male at birth and by people assigned female at birth, however that causes multiple problems as well. It’s an extremely complicated situation and people need to approach it with compassion and a critical understanding of what sexual dimorphism is, and how much hormones affect us. In my eyes, this cannot be about the validity as trans people as their identities, but about what influence injected hormones have on us and if they are enough to negate sexual changes during puberty.
My question is though if we admit that we just don't know enough about most of this topic and there's not enough research here, which many scientists & researchers agree that there is not enough research being done, then why we are using the female arena as the place to test the theory? And should we be using the female arena to test the theory?
I don't think people in these comment section realise the scale of the difference between the sexes by thier suggestions of categorising sports by weight instead of sex.
Women are approximately 52% and 66% as strong as the men in the upper and lower body respectively and almost all men are stronger than all women.
If you just did it by weight, you would just see it dominated by males at every level, hence why sports was segregated to include women in the first place.
Im freaked out by all these people reactions and lack of reasoning. It is clearly unfair.
“If you just did it by weight, you would see it dominated by males at almost every level”
Uhhhh....no? Why would you think this to be the case?
@@flowerchild8450 because that’s biology
@@flowerchild8450
For the same weight, a biologically male body has more muscles and less fat. If you’d looked at female bodybuilder they have a harder times making the muscles defined and dry. (Testosterone also helps muscle development)
Biological males have a larger amount of hemoglobin: they can use a bigger volume of oxygen. Higher VO2.
The last difference is the heart, biological females reach their max capacity faster then males for the same effort. The heart being smaller can’t pump at the same capacity.
All these are averages. In life people may express their genes differently and these factors vary, so it’s not always a strict rule but still remain the differences most people have.
For me the biggest argument for splitting sports into male / female sex is:
Allowing trans people to compete with the other sex gives them a possible advantage only in one direction! Trans women might have an advantage over cis women. However, trans men have most certainly no advantage against cis men. Thus there is no real change for cis men, while probably a big change for women. What do you think?
Yes this is what I was thinking too. At the end of the day, it is mostly female athletes that will suffer if this isn't handled properly.
There is a reason Serena Williams couldn't compete against the top 500 male tennis players, or how about that time the world cup winning U.S female soccer team was beaten by the U.S under 15's boys soccer team.
Just because we don't understand the seemingly large gender gap in terms of athleticism and advantages in particular sports, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
nope
%100
that's the obvious point that showcases that in the whole thing there is an imbalance - no need for longitudinal studies
That’s the only reason we’re having this conversation: it only effects women. If it were reversed and only men would be disadvantaged in sports, men wouldn’t put up with it and there would be no debate. But only women will suffer the consequences of trans issues in sports, so we are expected to compromise. This is because women’s rights are seen as negotiable.
This isn't complicated. Do we see people born female that transition to male and then start dominating male professional sports?...... There's your answer.
well said
Yes we do mark beggs won third place in two wrestling competitions in men's division
@@dewangbakshy7789 Are you really claiming that Mark Beggs is dominating elite male wrestlers? 🤣 We're not talking high school or low level NAIA college athletes. We're talking elite, olympic caliber athletes. Thats not happening. Btw, finishing 3rd in a weight division in a state level comp is far from dominating male professional sports. Please cite your source because this is fantasy land.
@@Jr_5646 how tf is this fantasy land also trans women are also not dominating anything trans people have been allowed to paricipate in women's sports in the olympics for 20 years now yet none of them have a medal. Also search chris mosier who secured a spot in team usa and participated in world championship 2016 in sprint duathalon. He was also in olympic trails for 2020 but because of an injury did not qualify.
@@dewangbakshy7789 Congrats to Chris Mosier, but we are also talking about an endurance athlete, in a specific age group, in a not too popular sport, where typical male genetic advantages aren't as important. The longer the race, the more even things become between the genders. For example, there are elite level female ultra marathoners who can compete with the men. However, the notion that biological men who have gone through male puberty don't have an advantage after transitioning in nearly every sport is ludicrious. Fallon Fox broke a girls skull in an MMA fight. Hannah Mouncey didn't score a goal in 22 games in the men's national handball team, but scored 23 goals in 6 games as a girl. Rachel McKinnon wasn't an elite cyclist as a man, but wins a world title in her age group as a woman. Laurel Hubbard, would have been a serious contender for the silver or bronze medal in Tokyo had she not choked and failed to complete any lifts of weight she had easily done before. All at the age of 43 when literally everyone else competing was in their 20s. Cece Telfer was ranked 390th in men D2 400m in 2017 then transitions and wins the women's national championship in 2019. Trans people make up a tiny fraction of the population yet finished 1st and 2nd in the 100m in the women's state championship in Connecticut a few years back. 3 competitors in the women's Olympic 800m in Rio were XY intersex with internal testes. They are literally changing the rules for women's track and field because of these hyperangrogenic females. Anyone with half a brain can see the advantages of males transitioning to women's sports. I only have an issue at the professional/Olympic level. The testosterone limits are insanely high. The average women's test levels are between 15-70 ng/dl. 86 ng/dl is 99 percentile. The limit for trans athletes is 144-288 ng/dl depending on the competition. So some of these trans female athletes have test levels in the lower reference range for a man. Not fair at all. That's just the hormone advantage. The physical advantage of going through male puberty stays even after hormone blockers. Likely being taller, larger hands, larger lungs, larger heart, more dense bones, more muscle mass, more fast twitch muscle fibers, differently shaped pelvis, etc. None of that changes.
I don't want to sound like a "women's sport is dead!" Nutcase. But I'm really surprised how many people in general hear this question and jump right to "women's sport shouldn't be a thing. Replace it with weight classes" I can kinda see why people get the wrong end of the stick and think this is about ending women's sport.
Right??!? I used to be all "girl-power wheee" when I was a teenager who went to a girls' school and, as a fencer, we usually always had mixed-gender training and bouts (we trained with our brother, all-boys school). I thought women were absolutely equal to boys, physically, and anyone who wasn't was just weak/lazy.
That was, however, until my brothers became teenagers, when my weedy 17-year-old-and-6'2"-but-unfit brother--whose idea of weight lifting was his daily trumpet practice and whose only exercise was biking to school--got into a scuffle with me, someone who was, at the time, 24 years old and a 5'7" tall and 65kg of solid, trombone-playing-and-historical-anacronism-archery-obsessed-super-fit-and-bikes-up-hills-everywhere-everyday-and-dances-and-swims-and-can-bench-press-100kg self.... and damn, he absolutely obliterated me, pinning me face-first into the carpet with my arms above my head and his knee on my back in under a minute (don't worry, it wasn't creepy or sexual, I had threatened to tickle him while my other brother filmed, it was 100% sibling gold). He physically overpowered me like it was NOTHING, and I was struggling against him and making no progress, at ALL. It was frankly a bit scary, because I learnt just how much stronger the majority of men are against the majority of women--and how yes, we can potificate all we like about gender expression is nuanced, but at a biological level there are real differences you can't hand-wave away.
Its more of the fact that a culture of feminists and their movement for a cultural space to exist in society for women is being invaded by individuals that identify themselves as women when they are denying their biological identity given at birth.
When in reality these individuals that identify themselves should be in a separate category from cis women and cis male. A new category that they can call their own, like TNBA trans national basketball association.
The fact that transgender men don't threaten the culture of men indicates that the biological properties of a women don't threaten the culture of cis men. Thus there are less to no issue for transgender men as than transgender women.
@@sophroniel First of all: Such a great relationship with your siblings is worth a lot more than a victory :)
You already know that your story is highly anecdotal. In your story and in the sports discussion, it is completely forgotten that a large part of all sports is athletic technique. Not only the physiology requires persistent training but also the coordination or techniques to be learned require an immense amount of training, especially here, since we are talking about world-class athletes.
By the way, there are even explicit sports and martial arts that make use of the power of the opponent. For example certain forms in karate or aikido. Even in our Greek / Western wrestling there are many techniques that make use of this beautiful "trick". I bet you: One week of Aikido and your brother looks old:P
But what am I talking about here? In fencing, did you forget that? ... he wouldn't have a chance, would he?:) [Edit: Oh, he trained that too. But does physical condition play such a big role in fencing?]
What I want to say with all of this: Sport is not easy(to categorize or simplify to axioms). It's not easy to learn. There are thousands of different sports, all with different challenges and many different facets. Sport and the exercise of sport are versatile and cannot be broken down to e.g. testosterone.
The current discussion is necessary, but it is being led too much by trans-phobic and lazy amateurs ( couch potatoes, none athletes **facepalm** ). Much is obviously cultural. At this point I greet the *female* world chess champion;) (see Wikipedia -> women's chess, separated of course, because of the physical inferiority, obviously a thing, LoL)
And thank you for your story, Sophia:)
@@dieSpinnt As an mma enthusiast I have got to say Aikido is useless in real life situations. I have to agree with you on the fact that a lot of transphobes are jumping on to hate on this to undermine the trans community but to say men have no physical advantage in sport is an asinine argument.
@@PJ-cm8ix With all due respect, but the assessment of which sport is better here or any personal statements from a self-appointed expert (again, not personally meant) says little and I find that inappropriate because it is far too subjective and off topic. Anyone can call themselves an enthusiast or expert (on UA-cam). In order to underpin a statement, i.e. to generate credibility, the expertise must also be proven. In addition, you take (an irrelevant one) of my statements completely out of context and pay too much attention to them. Which is not bad. I am talking about a variety of factors that mean professionalism in sport. Like your certainly missing mastery in Aikido (a joke, if you excuse. Not boasting:P).
I would also not insist so much on the physical argument in sports, it is a weak argument because there are also sports in which women are physically superior!
Edit: It looks like you think I would recommend or suggest any sport to Sophia here. You should read again what I wrote and reconsider your misunderstanding, if that is the case. Something like that is definitely not written up there! (You notice the sassy joke at the ":P") ... which was directed at Sophia! ("I bet YOU:") ... and it looks a little creepy when you feel personally addressed through a conversation from strangers.
"real life situations" ... **facepalm** ... plz completely read Sophia and my post BEFORE you form a judgment that you then also write on the internet. We are talking about fun between siblings, not Prison Break:) It is of course legitimate to express your opinion. But completely without added value and context? Of course, I agree with the 1st part of your 2nd sentence (by declaring that you agree with me, lol), but the second part, i.e. everything after the "but"(meta meta), has nothing to do with the introduction in terms of meaning. I'm too stupid, I don't understand the reason why one would use an affirmative statement to give his criticism more apparent credibility.
The image of Robert dunking on a bunch of 7 year olds is hilarious and I am here for it
It’s not fair. It’s like a heavyweight fighting a featherweight in boxing.
Defo man
Ok boxing match Ben Shapiro versus Serena Williams. You must bet all your money . Who do you place all your money on the heavy weight advantage of Ben Shapiro's biology due to being male or Williams disadvantage of not having that?
@@jgaffney567 Ben doesn't have a weight advantage.
@@Xethavosh your analogy was man as heavyweight going against a female who is represented by lightweight. Shapiro would lose to almost anyone. Snooki from jersey shore would cook his ass and she weighs less. The point being your analogy is simplistic at best.
@@jgaffney567 Except in that analogy both are assumed to be athletes. Ben Shapiro is definitely not an athlete (or anything of substance really), Serena Williams is.
Tons of people would love to research these topics but they can’t because the politics behind it. people call their funders whether it be a university or someplace else, and try to get them “cancelled” for lack of a better term. Lots of researchers talk about this being a huge issue in today’s academic fields..
It really is such a travesty that research is so tied up with funding. So much time and energy is wasted on research-as-PR for mega corporations that relatively nothing is spent on stuff that actually matters.
Science should never be political, and yet here we are...
@@madamebkrt But it will always be, because of resources being finite, you have to set priorities as to where should we invest our time and money to find knowledge. In that process of defining the heriarchy of needs you are doing politics.
@@guy-sl3kr YES PREACH LET ME BATHE IN YOUR GRAND INTELLIGENCE
@@luciocastro1418 Then we put it in helpful things not dumb shit, simple.
I think an important topic in videos that claim to talk about "trans" people in sports is the fact that TRANS MEN always seem to be excluded. Why is that if we're actually trying to have honest conversations about trans rights? You don't omit 50% of a group and pretend you care about the group's issues, instead of just pushing a narrative. I'm not sorry for saying it.
This is ESPECIALY complicated because there is a trans male wrestler that's being forced to complete in the women's division and is OBVIOUSLY destroying their competitors. They, as a trans male, WANT to compete in the men's division, and believe that they don't belong in the women's division and feel that the competition unfairly benefits them because they get to take testosterone, but the women cannot.
Trans men are also completely excluded from this conversation when we talk about whether hormone replacement therapy closes the performance gap. It doesn't for Trans men. Trans male athletes are not able to compete on the same level as cis male athletes. Look at their placements, look at the numbers comparatively. Trans men who used to compete in female sports pre-transition WERE extremely competitive, but see their placement drop considerably when they compete with cis men.
Compare that to trans women who are FREQUENTLY shattering world records in women's divisions who were non-competitive in men's divisions while competing against cis men. To say that we don't have "real data" when we can observe comparative scores in published timing and max power on athletes pre and post transition and compare that to their fellow athletes is not a little bit disingenuous, it just is disingenuous. Especially when trying to gloss over the clear benefits of testosterone, and why ANY gender taking steroids in competitive sport is banned.
The Russian Olympians that were stripped of their medals for dopping were removed after being tested with far less testosterone than 5x higher than not the AVERAGE cis women's levels, but 5x the levels expected of the highest performing cis female athletes. Women who lost to the Russian doppers said they felt "demoralized" and said it was akin to "competing against robots". So how, exactly, is this fair for anyone?
The trans woman that will be on the power lifting team for New Zealand is ALMOST 50. Let that sink in for you. When have you ever seen someone competing in the OLYMPICS in their 50's?
She transitioned in her 30's after training in power lifting as a male and having 30 years benefit of a male's testosterone and muscle development and bone structure. When measured, their lifts are still well within the projected lifts for if they were still a untransitioned male in their age category. These sorts of things are easily tracked by software literally developed to do so because the field of kinesiology and biomechanics exist. They are lifting WELL above what top cis female athletes can lift. How is that fair? How was it fair to the 23 year old Samoan girl that she kicked off the New Zealand team for yeah, I'll say it, a white trans woman who had the benefit of the privilege's of living their life passing as a white man for the vast majority of their life?
Not just cis women, but for trans men who are ALWAYS omitted from this conversation?
Trans women are women. It's absolutely ridiculous that we're still having this kind of conversation in 2021, especially since fMRI brain scans exist that show that pre-transitioned gray/white brain matter distribution IS different in trans people, and more similar to their identified genders. Fetal development is fucking weird, and people need to get over it. That being said, women or not, their bodies are still male, and it's not gender identities that compete in sport, it's bodies, and bodies are ruled by one's sex, not by your gender. Otherwise this wouldn't be an issue.
The fixation of trans women on "both sides" of the argument is extremely suspicious to me and I often wonder what the underlying bias is that causes this. Making rulings for trans athletes based ONLY on trans women doesn't help anyone.
People wanting to draw a line saying that people must complete based on sex seem to all be forgetting that that will push trans women into competing with cis males, sure. But that will also push the trans male athletes into competing with the cis females, which is also OBVIOUSLY unfair.
There is no obvious fair solution here, and people shouldn't be labeled as "transphobes" or "TERFs" to point out that it is problematic AF to disadvantage cis women so much in women's spaces. There has to be a fair solution for ALL women.
tbh, people are not ready for this type of conversation. but damn, these are my thoughts exactly.
Interesting comment. Saying that it's bodies which compete in sports and not gender identities is well put. I think the way in which trans people are integrated into sports should depend on the sport also. I recall reading an article saying trans-women have been competing in the women's division of tennis since the 70s and that's not caused any problems. Maybe the divisions for a sport like tennis should be different from a strength based sport like power lifting.
@@m.ó.baoighill Well Serena Williams lost against a man ranked 203 on the men's tennis team. So males have advantages in any physical sports. If sports were not separated by sex, we would have never heard of Serena. She probably ranks about 500 on men's team.
This should have way more likes.
Coming back to this comment a while later, the key point for me is surrounding whether we actually have evidence proving a physical advantage that as the maker of this video states, would be an 'intolerable advantage'.
Because intuitively, I think most would say there is one. The situations with athletes not placing well in male competitions but succeeding in female ones post transitioning as well as the biological significance of growing up as a male seem to indicate towards an advantage.
But the key point is that for rules to be passed in these scenarios *conclusive* evidence is needed in the form of multiple peer reviewed and controlled research studies. I am not well enough educated on how exactly studies would meet this threshold, but clearly there have been none to date. Whilst we might be able to make a very educated guess, we can't say for certain.
The question now is what we do until such time as we have that conclusive evidence. I would lean towards preventing trans women from competing in female events due to the fact that the inconclusive evidence we do have seems to suggest an advantage. But then making a change based on this lack of conclusive evidence could come across as transphobic in itself.
Really tough one.
It's not complicated, trans athletes should have their own league similar to Paralympics. Problem solved.
That's even more complicated and exclusionary.
Both sex and gender are on a spectrum. Trying to fit a spectrum into a binary system will result in complications. Right now, the Olympics use the genitals to determine sex but a few years ago all champions in women's running competitions were people with vaginas and Y chromosomes. I think we need to apply the same categorization method (right now it's genital-based) to trans people and make them compete based on that like we do to intersex people. We can work on a better categorization method or we can juet not use a binary system and work on a better system
There's no way competition would be viable at enough levels to merit trans sports existing. How many trans middle schoolers are there per school on average? How about high schoolers? And the college level? You didn't simplify the issue. Now there would be a whole new set of questions to consider.
Been thinking it
@@batuhan_a_kocak it's not exclusionary. Cis women should not be overshadowed by Trans women who have a biological advantage
@@cherrycola542 It's literally segregation.
Plus, there will ALWAYS be someone who has an advantage over another. Should cisgender women with higher than normal testosterone levels also be excluded? After all, it puts other cisgender women at a disadvantage.
Trans women have to take hormones and have their testosterone under a certain level for at least a year. Essentially, any inherent advantage is negligible
Unfortunately, this is just such a complicated subject to discuss, because no matter the answer, it will always have a negative impact on the other side
We basically have to choose between making cisgender women feeling like they're at a disadvantage, or actively discriminating against transgender people.
Some things in the world are divided by sex, others by gender.
Sports are divided by sex.
And if I’m not mistaken
Male and female are sexes
And Women and Men are genders.
Have we seen a world-class male athlete transition yet? Not sure. I would be curious as to what advantage they would show. It seems the athletes that are doing well as trans women were mediocre when male.
If someone like Usain Bolt transitioned...would he be running sub-10s as a transitioned woman? If so, there's no female that is even close to that.
@give him some milk in horse racing men and women compete together cuz there is not much biological advantage
@@apcook34 Yes. In the olympics.
@@Strawn149 who?.. I'm not aware of any. I only know of the weightlifter from NZ and she was not very competitive as a man. Same with that biker. I'm talking about a guy who is at or near WR level as a man already, then transitioning.
If there is someone, I'd be curious to see who it is.
@@apcook34 I was agreeing with you. I was speaking of trans women
Women's sports literally exist because otherwise it would be next to impossible to get into any sport professionally.
Contrary to popular belief most "Men's" sports teams/ events are actually open to all genders, but because men by and large dominate in terms of strength/speed etc. you'll probably never see a woman lacing up for a professional football (soccer)/NFL/NBA etc. team, or competing against men in Olympic events.
So men traditionally dominate sports, with time women gain an opportunity to compete professionally by setting up women's leagues and events, and now people who were born biologically male dominate those events too.
Did you even watch the video
@@rosssss Did you even read my comment?
I think it’s also important to consider trans women who have not undergone hormone therapy and chose not to and trans men who might not want to compete if they are at a huge disadvantage in the men’s category, especially if they chose not to undergo hormone therapy. It’s also important to consider non binary people, intersex and all the different athletes who wish to compete. In general, we need a lot more research and we need to redefine our sports categories. Whether we decide to make it so that advantages are levelled or we decide to keep the gender dichotomy in sports, the categories need to be clear.
Gender dichotomy in lots of sports doesn’t even make sense. Like in shooting. I think it’s time to clearly overhaul the whole system and think of one that better serves today’s society and those who live in it.
i agree. and dividing it by gender instead of other factors is a good idea…the gender dichotomy doesn’t really make sense IMO
Non binary people would be easy, whatever their biological sex is thats where they compete if they wish to.
@@anthony-ob6lw Some non-binary people undergo hormone replacement therapy. Non-binary is a term to describe a very wide range of identities. Non-binary doesn't just mean "people who choose to just dress androgynously".
In what sports do women perform on average at the same level as men?
I'm of the opinion that sports shouldn't be sorted by sex or gender, but by various specific factors of individual bodies. Like how wrestling is divided into weight classes, you know? If we're going to actually take arguments of biological advantage into account, the categories of "male and female" are too broad to actually do much.
and if men have the ability to produce less Myostatin, or less lactic acid, or are otherwise biologically different from the average male.. they're applauded.
True, it's weird that all sports aren't already sorted by the physical characteristics that directly impact performance. Like, why are weight classes a thing in martial arts but height classes not a thing in running?
Even if they were divided into weight categories, a bio-male will have advantages in muscle density and organ capacity over bio-female.
@@NBDYSPCL I know, those factors can be taken into account too, but I think that should be measured on an individual level instead of a broad and automatic assumption based on sex. I was thinking that a group of fitness experts and biologists would come up with a rigorous classification system that accounts for a variety of relevant factors, and this system could vary between sports as needed.
@@guy-sl3kr there are reasons that are very simple, the purpose of weight class in boxing and MMA is because your weight directly affects your punching force. More weight means stronger full body punch. Also determines how fast that person can move. With running a weight class would make no sense. Runners have to get below a certain body fat % in order to be the fastest. No one would wanna see a 200lb man running not to mention that would be a lot on your heart. You need great conditioning to be a runner.
Until it is proven to have no advantage to be a trans-women, they should not be allowed to compete. That would spark more interest in the topic and research and I am aware that, sadly, hurt the trans-women, of course, but we need to think about the sport itself. As a person who used to participate in sports at a half-professional level, it shouldn't matter who you compete against, you want to be the best and strive for it. To me, the transition of ex-men who failed to progress their sports careers and changing genders without the operation sounds like a money / career grab. I have nothing against trans people, but we should leave this "feelings matter" approach once and for all.
How can research on trans women competing in sports be conducted if trans women are not allowed to compete?
@@gwen4557 Even if not competing in a big competition, anyone can test out a persons athletic capabilities.
@Treez 93 Trans women qualifying is not evidence of an advantage over cis women at the Olympic level; if they did, trans women would be winning more medals than their cis counterparts; however, no trans women have won an Olympic medal as of this writing.
@Treez 93 More cases like the Laurel Hubbard case would be needed to make an informed decision on whether trans athletes have an advantage or if Laurel was an outlier.
you have nothing agaisnt trans people but you call trans women "ex-men"and you think the solution is *checks notes* banning all trans women from sports? mmm... that makes no sense at all dude
Until we can say for sure that there is no significant advantage maybe we should just have seperate categories for trans men and women
Except, there aren't really enough of us to make that work or be worth it. Trans people trying to "usurp" elite competitive sports is not the epidemic the media wants you to think.
Plus trans people just want to live fully as their identified gender. A trans man wants to live the same way a cis man would, and vice versa.
that's transphobic in it of itself, trans people want to be a woman or a man not a "trans" woman or a "trans" man and be separated as a different category.
@@thekittykatie yep. it’s like taking black women out and giving them their own separate category. from what i’ve seen we keep doing moves that eventually get banned because others can’t do them or we get tested and their t levels are naturally high (in which case they do get banned) so if op’s logic made any sense we’d have our own category. just pointed this out to let people who think like op know that there’s a bigger problem overall
@@trees____383 yup its modern day segregation, I believe the hate towards trans and black people will either lessen or just get worse over time unfortunately. I am trans and stay out of sports for this reason
The transwomen that preform worse than cis women isn't that proof enough? I mean more specifically the example ppl use a lot is the transwoman that beat a cis woman in track, the transwoman finished in 4th not even 1st
Well spoken mate
hey caps!! missed ur stream yesterday dude 😪
O'Knee-san
Yes
Next livestream
Yea
where are the transmen athletes breaking records in their sport like the transwomen athletes breaking records in theirs?
1. Tranwomen aren't exactly breaking world records either so I'm not rlly sure what ur trying to say here?
2. Just look at transmen in the Olympics
@@walter-vq1fw 1) not world records, regional or divisional records, 2) yes, i follow a few transmen olympians on social media. they personally have broken no records, but some have.
just not as many as transwomen have.
@@DoveLady what records are you talking about then? If not regional, world or divisional?
maybe u should do a count so I can believe u cause most of the sources I'm finding are unreliabile af. There's no credible list of either transwomen or transmen record holders.
I found one person trying claim a nonbinary person broke a woman record, but they never even competed in a woman's competition. And another about a track runner that came in 4th lost to 3 cis women for a local competition but the 5th Placer was claiming she had an unfair advantage.
Also have you considered the fact that there are significantly less transmen than transwomen? More than 2x less in the U.S . Not a lot of them in general let alone in sports, thus not a lot of record holders
@@walter-vq1fw thats what i meant, regional and divisional. it makes sense that there would be more transwomen than transmen given the global distribution of cisgendered people but that doesnt account for why NO transmen have broken any types of records.
@@DoveLady are trans people allowed in divisional sports? They aren't where I'm at
I mean if I were a female athlete I would most definitely feel somewhat cheated if someone who used to be a male wanted to compete against me.
And you'd feel cheated if a person who had a disability that gave them the same levels of testosterone but debilitating pain also beat you?
FUCKING CURIOUS!
@@jamie1602 What disability are you referring to?
Now I'm curious.
@@TheIndyRex That’s what being trans is like. I am a woman, but my body produces male levels of testosterone and estrogen. And it hurts so so much.
The point they’re making is would your perspective be different if being trans was counted as a disability?
@@opalbinia How is a choice made by someone to alter their own hormonal system a disability though? I still don't understand this argument.
@@TheIndyRex and you never will,because the argument in itself doesn't make sense
I can’t bring myself to watch but from the comments it seems he didn’t bring up bone density, muscle mass, different hand/foot size, or different center of gravity as an advantage, which no one ever does… even a man in the same weight class as a woman has those advantages over her. Having undergone male puberty is an advantage you can’t undo too.
He did bring up bone density and muscle mass fairly early in the video, I recommend watching it as he brings up basically everything in a clear and academic way
In germany most of our public toilets are just individual toilets. Anyone can use them,they are made for blind people,and handicapped people,etc.
@@ytho4426 same here in northern Germany
I'm in the us, most places only have a male and female bathroom with a handicap accessible stall in each, but some places have a male, female, and a third one that is for anybody. But its usually just 1 singular bathroom so for 1 person at a time
@@ytho4426 genau, auch in Berlin. I have never seen "individual" toilets here. stop lying
Gender ideology is a belief. Where would the non binary go, or the gender fluid people. sports is separated by sex, anyone who underwent hormone replacement therapy should get their own category.
wherever they wanted, but yall are obsessed with forcing them into a category for them instead of letting them pick
@@zoedegenerate6703 pick what, you cant pick a category that was on the basis of sex rather than gender and this applies to everyone.
@@PZooni Some people really think they can do whatever they want because of their feelings. Stupid people are consuming the west from the inside out.
@@zoedegenerate6703 we can choose? Bro I'm not even gonna get surgery, if I can just choose lemme in on those female sports. I'm gonna just claim to be a woman that day
I don't think it's possible to make it completely fair for trans women to participate with cis women in sports. It's difficult but trans women should not compete with cis women. Until we reach a certain point as a society where we have enough resources and a proper, balanced system put in place, I believe they should compete with their assigned birth and understand the biological advantage they have will not be socially accepted in women sports.
0:55
I've always viewed women's sports as a physical class, not the social construct of gender. It's about the body, not the mind. Otherwise, why should it exist? I don't have a stake in this one way or another, but I can't see a solution bing devised that doesn't piss off at least one side. Either trans women are allowed, and it pisses off cis women who feel they are being dismissed, or you get rid of women's sports and make it all by weight class and physique, and they feel even more like they're being dismissed. There is a third option, which is don't let trans women in women's sports, but then that leaves trans women feeling dismissed.
In short, there doesn't seem to be an ethical option that leaves all sides happy. Regardless of who is in the right.
What about letting cis women take PEDs? That could be a fair and ethical solution.
@@alexanon8345 Cis women being forced to ruin their hormonal balance just to keep up is incredibly unfair.
There’s cis gendered people that have more natural levels of testosterone or estrogen as well, if you wanna get down to it. What’s the defining line on what’s fair or not? Maybe that needs to be the question to ask.
👏👏 👏
Same for singers who have better vocal chords. If they are weaker than someone else in their field, that's literally it, they can't compete. If they are stronger naturally, that's also literally it. The line is literally only because they're using drugs, advantage or not.
@@bunille the drugs are technically ‘weakening’ them to make them more feminine, the more testosterone you have, usually the more muscle mass or height you gain. This is only from my limited knowledge so i recommend researching about hormones and hormone therapy is you are interested in this debate.
@@ducc0287 Then explain why there are many trans women who broke the women's record by way too much?
@@ducc0287 It’s true that HTR does affect trans women and does make them more feminine. The issue is that many of the trans athletes we see currently has transitioned in adulthood. That means they went through an entire male puberty and thus they already have the “foundation” of a sturdier bone structure and muscles. Even if their levels of testosterone has decreased they will still have a large advantage over biological women. If a trans woman started transitioning in or went on hormone blockers in early teens they are more likely to match the physique of a cis woman. So even if testosterone is important and their lowered levels are weakening them they still have an advantage by just having been an adult male at one point in their lives.
Anyone ever notice how it’s never the other way around? Like trans guys causing a fuss but only trans woman. I think that proves that there is a biological advantage
Or maybe it's just trans misogyny.
@@acutechicken5798 ah yes, noticing trans women as STRONGER and MORE CAPABLE athletes (to an unfair degree) than women in certain categories is clear trans misogyny… 🙄
If its fair then why aren't trans men dominating mens sports? You don't even need to think hard, it's just unfair.
And the thing is I love and respect trans people. Trans women ARE women, but let's not forget they were born in the wrong body first.
It's also evident that the two trans women in question were rather average athletes before they transitioned and both have more than a decade of competing in their said sport. They've only seen success once they've transitioned, and they don't feel one ounce of remorse for stealing biological womens spot in a competition.
But unfortunately the whole argument has turned into "your transphobic if you don't say 'trans women have absoloutely no advantage over biological women'"
There's still kids starving, a homeless epidemic, a goddamn pandemic is going on too. And it should t take up this much time time.
Wouldn't the fairest thing to do would be to create a trans league? I'm sorry too but trans women is it's own gender? I will refer to you as a woman and treat you how you want also with respect. But we can't lie and call trans women biological women.
Agree although the last part could be formulated in another way. Most trans women who transition beyond adolescence were able to build their skill in a masculine body prior to transitioning. Transitioning may level the field once thru but to priorly being able to shape their skills in a amab body gives them an advantage from start. However this dosent apply for those who transition in adolescence but I’d imagine it’s a rather small asset of trans women? Anyways I don’t think the answer is straight up separating all trans women and girls from women’s sports since it would be unnecessary on youth sports but in the higher leagues it should be accounted for
Well where do we then go from here? Should cis-woman with higher testosterone levels have their own league? Should taller cis-woman not compete with smaller ones or play against them?
Biological advantages and disadvantages have always been there. Should a bigger, taller woman like serena williams should feel "remorse" for winning against other women? No, so why should trans women?
How about a height based system?
Why do we care to begin with?
This is in general such a non-issue - There only a small percentage of trans-women and how many of them are athletes - the only reason why people talk about it is because right-wingers and terfs found a nice topic where they can go "ha, nO rEal WoMEn" and somehow they got what they wanted...
@@eleanordaliah323 that's the thing, is it tho? If we invested into it. Ive heard that argument before but too me keeping trans women in womens sport is unfair.
Like a comment said below, there isn't that much of a change if a someone transitions in their adolescence, as they've not already developed a lot of muscle mass and pubertal hormones.
But in the case of Hubbard and the other cyclist. Their advantages are absurdly greater than her fellow females she competes with. And then there's the stories of countless state sport competitions of trans women dominating because they've already gone through puberty as a man.
In this day and age love I guess everything would be called transphobic, even letting a trans women compete in the Olympics would somehow get the tarnish of "transphobic"
Wouldn't giving them there own league be the most inclusive thing we could do instead of grouping them into cis women's group? Its not very inclusive to take away even a single position a born woman can fill over a transitioned woman (a born man)?
@@ohh7759 tbf I agree with you, in youth sorts up until 16 years old, there shouldn't be much of an advantage or even a disadvantage from transitioning. And I'd also agree it need to be accounted for, for adult competitors if they transitioned after 20 years old.
Yes I also agree that it isn't as cut and dry and saying "have your own league". But I think we could make parts of it work. You could run the trans matches in accordance with the Olympics, so that they race either at the start, after mens or after women's.
It defenitley isn't an easily worked out issue.
@@sweetgirl494 too answer both your questions at the start. No. Becuase there's a common link between those two, they are cis women. There league should stay the same.
And your the first person to bring politics to this. I don't think someone is a terf or a right winger just because they don't agree with everything you agree with. It's not left vs right. It's a case of, there's an issue, let's try and resolve it.
If a 27yr old trans women who has been a man for 26yr be allowed to compete with cis women? And please answer that don't try and skip the question.
The streets been waiting on this one, thanks Robert you're the GOAT.
"the streets" 😂you talkin sesame 😂
@@watchalotadunks 🤣
You are never going to handle that because any discussion of the actual reality of the situation is labeled "transphobic". Insisting that the term "assigned" be the acceptable term for what sex a person is born as-- as though it were an arbitrary choice made by doctors that could have gone either way with a flip of a coin, is an intentional attempt to mask that such an "assignment" was not arbitrary, malicious nor unfounded. That there are actual physical differences between having a male or a female body that mean you can expect different performance, different results from the same activities and different tendencies towards medical issues. But since it would be impolite and against the popular trend to actually acknowledge that reality-- nothing can be done about it because it is impolite and therefore forbidden to have an actual reality-based conversation about it.
I'd say this video is a part of such a discussion, personally.
@@sirreginaldfishingtonxvii6149 this video is a step and robert tends to respectfully argue well, but he also has his biases and it shows. He states there are no controlled studies which is true, but that is almost enough for him to ignore the actual field results seen in this instance where almost every single trans athlete is shattering records set by women in crazy margins.
@@nocburry5897 almost all of the really extreme record breaks are done in incredibly small scale/unprofessional leagues, or are incredibly based on coincidence. most of the wrestling examples used for instance are from community leagues without any sign up protocol, so any ripped dude can enter as a women to own the libs. Fallon fox for example only fought against relatively untrained women with very poor success rates (ie 0-3 / 2-4), has only fought a large name fighter once and got her ass beat, and has only played 6 games in total. yes, if you look at the worldwide event, in places with literally no verification, any man claiming to be a trans woman to prove a point will win, but in verified leagues this is incredibly rare, and basically a non-issue.
Transgender people don't ignore reality. It's true that when you are born your gender is assigned based on your sex (the physical stuff they can see), but not everyone's gender and sex match, so when people say their gender assigned at birth was wrong, they aren't ignoring reality, you are just thinking of something different than they are, which is refered to as sex rather than gender.
it WAS an arbitrary choice made by the doctors. sex is the gendering of anatomy, it is not biological reality. sex is "you were born this way and you are on the track to be stuck in this role" not "you have observable qualities consistent with some real idea of man or woman". so no.
it's incredibly dishonest to claim cissexism is impolite and not acceptable by society. you just spewed out the most mainstream status quo supporting opinion there is on this
I've also heard the argument that it's different when teens transition because they never go through male puberty but to be perfectly honest, I have a big issue with pressuring teens to medical transition. I know it's controversial in liberal spaces but I don't think preteens should be making the choice to transition medically. I have no problem with socially transitioning, but the medical side is just far too permanent a decision to make that early.
I’m a liberal and I totally agree. Exogenous hormones have side effects
There have been laws for YEARS protecting children under the ages of 18 from medical transition. You can only transition at the youngest of 16 with parental consent and only after years of therapy and psychological monitoring.
The only option for those under leagal age are puberty blockers which are COMPLETELY REVERSIBLE and are not harmful to the body and again you can only get these after years of therapy. These are facts so you can lay your fears to rest.
@Zeus Christos yes search mia mulder she made a video on puberty blockers
@@Nishawnsworld the fact that people still don't understand this when the information is widely out there and while trans people have been shouting this from the rooftops is genuinely frustrating.
Do puberty blockers even work? The make up yt Nikkietutorials took puberty blockers at 12. She mtf trans. She 6'4" and has large male body. Puberty blockers didn't seem to work on her.
''There are no controlled longitudinal studies that measure the effects of hormone replacement therapy on performance in elite sports not a single one''. So they need to make the studies first before they decided to make transwoman competed with ciswoman, isn't it?
I dont know where to stand on this. On one hand I want all those people to be ok and to do what ever they like,but on the other hand we have male boxers who came out as transgender and are beating woman up in the ring like pudding,and the law doesn't even mandate them to reveal that they were once male. So they fought against men for years and now are fighting women...
Shouldn't weight classes etc sort that out? Shit like weight classes, and checking testosterone ranges, should make that easier. A trans female athlete who is around the same weight as her opponent will therefore have a body type that evens out somewhat. If she is taller, she would weigh less on account of having lower muscle mass, etc
"but on the other hand we have male boxers who came out as transgender and are beating woman up in the ring like pudding"
Citation needed. And no, that article which sneakily implies that Fallon Fox was the one who caused a cis woman fighter the injury shown in its header picture is being disingenuous, because that injury was caused by another cis woman fighter. You see how easy it is to fall for this kinda shit?
@@toriestrella Why do you think there are no transmen competing in mens sports? Just curious. And do you deny transwoman athletes have been breaking a ton of records in women's sports since they entered?
"male boxers" you're dismissed
@@bums009 there are trans men in men's sports. You just don't hear about them because the media doesn't believe they exist or take them remotely seriously. It's a lot harder to use trans men for fearmongering.
That is always what I always discussed: being born male, will give you an advantage on length and strength in bones and size of organs.
But as you said, more studies are needed.
I have trans friends and We were talking about this, also with a female friend who does power lifting… it is a hard conversation since we don’t know much.
Thanks for your insight!
PS: I’ve been harassed by a woman in a woman’s restroom and in the subway. Pervs will be always pervs no matter the gender.
@Hadf Josso the time that they start their hormone therapy is important, thats why it is mentioned in the studies. Did that person started before or after puberty? Thats a huge factor, that’s why in the studies you have to consider when they started the therapy.
About the last part: except the scale on which it happens and the fact that we live in patriarchy, with a certain history, and men having clear physical advantages, makes it very different indeed. Still sucks and absolutely not ok though (even though it's hard for me to imagine tbh)
And those studies will still prove men are numba 1
Testosterone undoubtedly gives someone a physical advantage- it has nothing to do with psychology but biology- there’s even been evidence to show that even if u transition before puberty from boy to girl- that the testosterone that child received in utero is beneficial! It’s just not fair- make a transgender section
I would like to see that evidence because I find that very hard to believe!
Agreed. This UA-camr doesn’t mention the other advantages men have, such as: 1) higher bone density. 2) broader shoulders. 3) slimmer hips. 4) bigger hands and fists. 5) more type II-B fast twitch muscle fibers. 6) more muscle strength. 7) thicker jaw. 8) stronger tendons and ligaments, resulting in faster running speed, more explosiveness, more force in punches and kicks and better leveraging. With the possible exception of #6 somewhat, the rest of these do not change merely by reducing testosterone. Trans women still went through puberty as a male, and developed a male skeletal structure. Him taking estrogen and t-blockers doesn’t change the fact he has slimmer hips, broader shoulders, bigger hands, denser bones, stronger tendons and ligaments etc. It is not a fair fight or fair athletic competition. That is a fact
I smiled from ear to ear when I saw you upload, I really admire you and your intelligence Robert!
This actually was very insightful for me. I had this conversation with a friend and saw a video called ‘female sports are dying’ a week ago and I’ve been just as confused and uncertain about this particular topic. Thank you for clarifying all the information and ‘very educated guesses’. Also for validating my feelings of uncertainty by not actually providing an answer to this debate because there simply is not enough evidence to have one.
If it was by PragerU, it might help to know they are very conservative and have a history of showing a strong bias against trans people and the lgbt community as a whole in their videos.
Unfortunately, this UA-camr doesn’t mention the other advantages men have, such as: 1) higher bone density. 2) broader shoulders. 3) slimmer hips. 4) bigger hands and fists. 5) more type II-B fast twitch muscle fibers. 6) more muscle strength. 7) thicker jaw. 8) stronger tendons and ligaments, resulting in faster running speed, more explosiveness, more force in punches and kicks and better leveraging. With the possible exception of #6 somewhat, the rest of these do not change merely by reducing testosterone. Trans women still went through puberty as a male, and developed a male skeletal structure. Him taking estrogen and t-blockers doesn’t change the fact he has slimmer hips, broader shoulders, bigger hands, denser bones, stronger tendons and ligaments etc. It is not a fair fight or fair athletic competition. That is a fact
@Akshat Pradhan they don’t have common sense.
@@charlesg7926 what do you think affects all those things genius
There is more than enough evidence.
I would like a separate trans sports game. You would have the cis olymics and the trans olymics.
The regular Olympics and trans, by saying cis..you are implying genders are assigned, and some people do not agree. Then the logic you make does not make sense because if it really does not matter and gender is assigned then there is no need for different leagues. In all honesty the trans logic is very off and people are speaking up, and the science is not even there
@@SLTTPOH I mean people do say its transphobic or discrimination to actually do that, but isn’t having a separate women’s division discrimination itself because you are considering the gender. Thus, the reasoning doesn’t make any sense. its also strange that there are only trans women athletes, but no trans men. I think that does correlate with many of these trans athletes taking advantage of the situation to increase their overall standing or win a medal
I LOVE how you approach your subjects and that you're not afraid to talk about controversial topics. We need more people like you!
I think the frustration for me comes from the very fact that sports events such as the olympics are literally meant to show the best of the best athletes, many of which could, by all accounts, be considered advantaged for any number of reasons. Next thing you’ll know, they’ll be banning tall athletes from competing in volleyball and basketball! But not really, because it’s (VERY blatantly) not even about that. This is very much a gendered issue, and one that too often boils down to misogynoir as well. As many other commenters have pointed out, the olympics have chosen to essentially punish African American women for their athleticism, despite their entire brand being reliant on athletes with anomalies. Furthermore, the hypocrisy of the olympics banning African American women whilst never batting an eye at a mr. Phelps (a swimmer with hyperextended joints as well as a medical condition causing him to produce 50% more lactic acid than the average person) is both palpable and a perfect illustration of the issue.
The marginalization of trans athletes and cis women with higher testosterone levels in sports are inextricably intertwined forms of bigotry and must be deconstructed as such in order to properly address either.
Well said!
The advantages of height aren't nearly as beneficial as the advantages of sex
@@shrisiva4016 It’s actually kinda funny that your only takeaway from my comment would be the one sarcastic sentence to be found in it
Trans men have never broken any male records, but trans women have, multiple times. So yeah.
It's a complicated issue, and as a trans woman myself, I'd love to see the day where we can compete side by side. I do archery, and before transition I competed in locals and county matches. I stopped doing the sport for years and came back to it, enjoying again. I haven't been to a tournament since. Because I don't want my existence to be a debate. I don't want to have to rock up and explain myself, or have the guilty feeling of having "cheated" if I were to win. I shoot low poundage bow, so I have 0 strength advantage, at least currently. Most small tourneys aren't gonna ask for your medical records and birth certificate, but I automatically don't feel welcome, and don't feel like I belong. And honestly 10 year old kids who are having fun on their sports day are making national news (which is a disgusting and vile thing, regardless of how you think about high level competition). I really don't need any chance for that kind of negative press to land on me, despite the chance being pretty low.
I'm happy shooting for fun, don't get me wrong. I still enjoy the sport, but tourneys are real good social events where you can meet new people and see new places. These decisions aren't just going to affect the highest level athletes, it will have repercussions through every sport for every age group, so the decision has to have a lot of research behind it.
Personally, when people debate against the issue, I find they don't want trans women excluded from women's sports, they want trans women excluded from life in general
No. No. No. that’s your own take but is not fact. I don’t want trans women gone entirely from the planet, but from women sports.
I am a natural born woman and I consider you a woman. But why are we having the same conversations in men's sport🤔. Just because you are Trans doesn't mean you will ever understand the issues cis women deal with. So why can't trans people advocate for Trans spaces like women did for women's rights. Is it really transphobic to admit that Trans and cis women are way too different in their biology to be competing against each other??
@@sosomariza If there were a trans women/trans men/non binarysection in the Olympics, fantastic honestly. I will say that's a good step forward and would be great. And would lay the debate to rest. Maybe there should be divisions, such as boxing, where various height or weight differences put you in different categories. But I believe there would be equal backlash to adding that category.
But that is not the discussion in general. I also was specifically talking about archery. Which literally the only factor between men's and women's is that the men tend to have higher draw weights (the amount of force needed to pull back the bow). Scores are so close across the board it's negligible in most cases, with men only tending to outperform in quite windy conditions as higher poundage cuts through that. You could easily put in limb poundage limits. In fact, those already exist, albeit they're so high no one but compound archers would even shoot that weight. Target sports, especially shooting - which has recently been added - has no reason to be gender segregated at this point.
Besides, competing in a sport is fun. I have competed at a national level with trampolining when I was young and before transition, and I had the time of my life travelling around the country with my friends. For trans kids growing up, I can't even imagine how depressing it would be to not even compete in a school sports contest for fear of hate. I think when it gets into monetary value, there may be more questions and queries, but there is so much grey area when it comes to trans people. If a trans girl was on hormone blockers as a teen, they never would have developed male bone structure, they never would have gone through male puberty and built up more natural mass. Even with working out constantly they would have never reached anywhere close to the level of a cis man.
It's unfair to tout "genetic advantage" with no nuance, and yeah I'll agree that it does skew towards trans women (although the discussion for trans men is not even considered when these conversations start), the Olympics only really have winners that have genetic advantage in general. (i.e. Michael Phelps)
Can I ask why do you feel like you wouldn't belong? Why would you feel guilty about having "cheated"? To me this raises questions. If you truly felt and know you are a woman why would you feel like you didn't belong amongst women? If you truly felt you were a woman, and thought it fair to compete against women, why would you feel guilty for having cheated?
If you don't feel you belong in the female category, why not compete in the male category?
Also what do you mean by having your "existence" being debated? No one is denying your existence or your right to exist as you see fit. The debate as I see it is around the identity and a claim you make about yourself.
Like how in America, people call Catholics not Christian, whilst Catholics and many others dispute this, there's no claim that those who think Catholics aren't Christian are denying Catholics right to exist.
The trans debate is a definitional fight that has huge consequences on both sides.
@@prigg88 I feel that like I should be competing in women's sport, but I know there's a polarising opposite argument, and that gets internalised. It's less I'd feel I cheated, more I expect others to say I had. I definitely do not belong in the male category, that is not something I feel at all, so it's a horrible limbo of fearful of other expectations versus the ability to have fun with my peers
A simpler explanation and another trans issue. I do not feel comfortable or safe in men's bathrooms at all, I do not look like I belong and I do not feel like I belong. All I want to do is pee in private and move on with my life using that bathroom.
I still have a fear every time I need to step into a woman's loo, that I'm going to get into a confrontation with someone who doesn't feel like I should be there, when all I want to do is just be in and out. It has never happened, I've been lucky in that regard, but I transitioned over 10 years ago and the fear has increased due to more media attention.
It's less I don't feel like I belong, more I fear for a confrontation from someone who thinks I don't. I just want to do my basic bodily functions and like most people on the planet I want to be in a public toilet for as little time as possible and mind my own business.
There is definitely a debate on my existence. Many people claim trans women aren't women, so a "debate" is on whether or not I am who I am, or I'm delusional. There is anti-trans hate, there are murders and assaults, based on being seen as trans. In the UK, conversion "therapy" has just been banned for LGB people but they made a specific exception for trans people. This is literally the UK government saying it's OK to erase trans existence.
While for the most part I've gotten so used to it that it doesn't often drain on me, it's exhausting thinking that every single thing you do, from fun and hobbies, to basic bodily functions, to just getting up in the morning and breathing, has tens of thousands of people disagreeing with it. That I have to somehow argue and "justify" who I am, and that to the people I have to justify to, knowing it's only going to fall on deaf ears
A strong inference is not really the same thing as an educated guess. Also, I find it breathtakingly absurd that you might think that an elite athlete has a larger and stronger heart, lungs, and denser bones and yet somehow may yet still not have any advantage - because unless they have the musculature to match, it doesn't matter. Honestly, we're talking about elite athletes here, you really doubt that they'd be lacking the muscle mass to take advantage of the gifts their biological past has endowed them with?
On a completely unrelated point, not only does clapping one's hands on each word of the sentence "Trans women are women" not magically make the sentence true, neither would stomping one's feet, nor would the volume of one's voice do anything to bestow truthfulness to that statement. Indeed, the only way for there to be any disagreement about the truthfulness of that sentence would be if the disagreeing parties were using the word "woman" to mean two entirely different things. If you want to convince people that "Trans women are women" then perhaps what you should be saying is "woman doesn't mean what you and literally everyone else throughout the entirety of human history have understood it to mean." You might have more of an uphill battle convincing anyone that they should use the word differently, but at least it's more honest. Personally, I have no problem whatsoever treating trans people with dignity, using the pronouns they would prefer me to use, and pretending that they are the gender they say they are; however, we must be honest and admit that we do so out of compassion, we play along with their delusion out of love, but this pretense does not and should not ask us to redefine the concepts of what male and female actually mean. Objective reality doesn't care what we think, it is what it is regardless - but as human beings, we should care and behave accordingly.
Thank you! tis video was very very very disappointing. they are not allowing swimming bigger caps for black women with afro hair, but a man can just go and compete with women? Bullshit. The average age of elite women athletes in lifting if 24, he is 43 years old. You dont have to be a genius to figure out how unfair this is. Also, if a mediocre male didn't qualify for men's team, he has no place in women's team simply because he is a man. Period
The problem with trying to make scientific conclusions about sports is that sports aren't scientific. Biology plays a role, but many would argue that its role is not that great. Height is normally viewed as crucial in basketball, yet Spud Webb (5'7") and Mugsy Bogues(5'3") both managed to excel. There are also plenty of very tall people who suck as basketball. Skill, attitude, willpower and luck all factor in. The one piece of data we can look at is how often trans women are actually winning. From what I've seen, they're not winning at an alarming rate. So, even if we suppose they have one advantage, it doesn't mean their advantage is absolute.
You are forgetting about transmen. You have to compare transwomen and transmen when it comes to winning. How many transmen have broken world records? None. Your take on things means transmen just aren't talented, train hard enough or are good enough. While, transwomen are just incredibly gifted, harder working than females and it just so happens they are taking world records. All the factors matter.
Being short and in the NBA is an exception, rather than the rule. Most NBA players are almost a foot taller than the average person, and there are physical traits like being taller, having larger cardiovascular organs, and etc that 100% help be better at the sport.
I mean, thats what many PE drugs do - they make your heart and lungs work extra hard to pump out more blood. It'll be like youre on PE even just regularly because of your larger organs. It's definitely unfair to biological female athletes.
Dude, the reason why Mugsy is famous is precisely because height is crucial in the NBA yet he was a good player (due to his insane speed.) It’s these cases where the exception proves the rule.
Transwoman have a clear advantage, like men biological in general have bigger heart and lungs which helps in better oxygen flow in their body compared to cis women. Men have more muscle mass, bigger and better bone structure and more testosterone levels which helps in faster healing of muscle and body. Men have a more narrow hips which helps them cycle better than women, so yes transwoman have a huge advantage against cis women. It's not just about height or skill, how your body is constructed is also important!
@Zeus Christos tragic. Feelings have overriden facts
there's also the question of trans women who do not undergo any type of surgery or hormone replacement therapy if they can't afford it. is it fair for them to compete? since they still have testosterone and on average more muscle mass than a cis woman
edit: i havent finished the video so im not sure if he went over this or not.
I think it depends on how early they transitioned and how much testesteron affected them. For example theres a lot of trans women who had hormone blockers at a young age and havent developed masculine characteristics i dont think they'd have that much of a biological advantage
He starts the video with the assumption we're talking about trans women who have undergone HRT for some time and keep their testosterone levels to be lower than that of cis man.
Definitely not fair, since biologically speaking, she’ll be the same as a cis male, who definitely shouldn’t compete in women’s sports
@@goldenapple3952 no, im talking about people who dont transition at all? but they just identify as the opposite gender
@@crimsonsnow0017 i agree. i wonder how they would handle that without offending anybody
Just want to point out that there are 3 African cis women who are being disqualified from track simply because their testosterone levels are slightly naturally higher...but they identify as women...think of how caster semenya has been treated...and now all of sudden... Women who happened to be born in the wrong body who may have trained in a male body, have male muscle mass, male chromosomes, with male levels of testosterone that they have to lower with hormones but science still isn't sure if it's lowered enough to make a difference...are okay to compete? Bro......pardon me?
Doctors don't "assign" a gender. Anyone who says this sound ridiculous.
Fam. I think it's up to the athletes who have dedicated their lives to becoming the best in their respective disciplines to tell us how they feel. And not be judged.
@tkwtg Why does it have to be complicated, Buddhism teaches the path of least resistance. Humans just like to complicate life sometimes.
When men's and women's sports are defined by the social construct of gender, it gets complicated. This then moves into the conversation about how to account for non-binary people and people who use neopronouns. If someone does not identify as a man or woman, what happens then?
It's not based on gender so there you go, problem solved.
I was hoping this would be a fair but your bias and prejudice against females in favour of those of your own sex i.e. transwomen and men and non-binary males is clear.
You go into a personal attack of Emma Hilton for being biased in favour of females and against males but don't attack Joanna Harper (a transwoman) for the same thing. Joanna Harper has a personal stake in showing that transwomen don't have an advantage and you don't address the fact that transwomen also have an incentive to perform less well in studies, if it means they could show that they don't have an advantage which would allow them to compete against females.
You also don't attack Tommy Lundberg, even though he co-authored the paper with Emma Hilton.
Also Joanna Harper's study only has a sample of 8 which is hardly a large enough sample size but you don't mention that disadvantage. Joanna Harper has also said that transwomen still retain advantages but the reduction still allows for "meaningful" competition - i.e. that the advantage is tolerable whereas Emma Hilton and TOmmy Lundberg take a different philosophical standpoint, that you need to wipe it out entirely in order for fair competition.
What do Tommy Lundberg and Joanna Harper have in common that Emma doesn't? It's that Tommy and Joanna are both males so your misogyny and sexism is on full show.
How about we exclude people from men's and women's sport based on sex so transwomen are excluded from the women's category based on their male sex but transmen and non-binary females are allowed to compete in the women's category, so long as the transmen aren't taking testosterone. And transwomen compete in the male category like the fa'afafine in Samoa.
You also don't address the other argument against transwomen inclusion into the women's category, that is separate from biology. Cathy Devine has shown that because male participation in sport is so much greater than female participation. 1% (rough estimation of trans people) going from the male category into the female category and vice versa will have a disproportionate effect on female sport i.e. in most sports transmen in male sports would make 1 person in 250 in tennis but 1 in 5000 in football and cricket but in female category, transwomen would make up 1 in 48 in tennis and 1 in 10 in football and cricket. Cathy argues that this is denying females the same opportunities in sport as males therefore is discriminatory based on sex and arguably illegal in the UK due to the equality act.
Add to that the biological advantages males have that aren't eliminated by HRT and that females including transmen can't bridge the sex performance gap even when taking testosterone (look at the East German swimming team as an example), it means that out of all the winners, there will be more male winners, so females will be discriminated against based on our ability to bear children, whilst males will be advantaged because they are the inseminators even if they reduce testosterone or have bottom surgery i.e. our sex. If you are in favour of equality of the sexes, I don't see how transwomen have a leg to stand on to say they deserve a female's space in a female sporting competition.
What if we made an entirely separate category for trans people in sports? Like an all-trans 300mt race for example, so they can compete with others who are just like them?
What about the height and stature difference you haven’t mentioned . Also cis women not trans women , have monthly ;tender breasts , painful cramps and varying levels of blood loss , a trans woman does not have, so again at an advantage during training and in competition.
Not every cisgender woman has a period, particularly due to various forms of birth control. While it’s true that males are typically taller than females, think of how many tall, muscular cis women athletes there are. Serena Williams comes to mind, as does Katie Ledecky in swimming
@@SusannaPowers But the vast majority don’t take birth control pills to stop their periods! AND if the small amount that do it plays havoc with their oestrogen levels, doesn’t necessarily stop pain either. Also cis men have bigger hands / feet , broader shoulders, using examples like the Williams sisters is pretty much anomalies as women are in the main ; smaller in height, breadth and less muscle mass .
This video would be complete if you mentioned that it was important to prevent unfairness to cis women in womens sports, but for some reason that line of thinking was omitted...
A lot of trans women identify as women but can’t relate to women because they never lived as a woman.
EXACTLY!! I really do appreciate this video but the most important thing is how this would effect cis-women in women's sports. There is a long history of struggle and oppression in women's sports worldwide and some of the consequences of this topic are just sad and backwards. (eg. some cis women not being allowed to compete due to naturally occurring high testosterone levels)
The argument often goes straight to transphobia most of the time. As a trans man, I really thank you for this video and for opening up that question many people think they know the answer to but don't. This argument has been full of misinformation for years and been full of transphobes. Also, I often see the argument being if trans women should compete and no one ever says anything about trans men which should say something already...
Edit: fixed my spelling errors😎
Edit 2: I found a comment by JohnMark Sikoyo which was talking about the African women who are being disqualified because they have too much testosterone. As all my fellow black people may know, African and African American women often have more testosterone, and as some black trans people may know, African and African American women are often treated the same as similar to trans women, especially in sports as it is a very bid topic. This also brings up the whole topic of black women being seen as too masculine but I'm not gonna get into that. I hope he speaks on this topic also sooner since it brings up something very interesting in the topic of sports but imma leave that topic there.
Edit 3: last edit frl but I deleted my replies cause I want this to just be a clean convo without anymore input from me, than this here comment. Also I got 28 likes flexin on yall rn
I personally think that you should have to play for your biological gender but your point on trans men is 100% facts. People need to look into the disadvantages of a trans man competing with cis men
It certainly does say something that the mainstream is able to identify the blatant DISADVANTAGE trans men have in male sports, while not being able to recognize that the opposite is true for trans women. It’s weird that people seem to ignore this fact. There have even been trans male olympians (I think he was a swimmer?) and no one really cared.
In my honest opinion, there should be a trans male and trans female category because trans men are at disadvantages against men and advantages against women, and trans women are the reverse. It’s not fair to put them in either category. Everyone is valid in their identity, but when it comes to the moral discussion of sports and fairness, it shouldn’t take a study to recognize the blatant advantage male puberty and body plan has in sports. I wish just as bad as any trans person that they could’ve been born the sex they identify with but there are realities we must recognize and address in society such as this.
And no hate to any of the Trans female athletes currently competing in women’s sports. If I was allowed to compete in the division I wanted to, I sure would. They’re just playing the game.
@@quotient9974 this is so facts oh my lord. The only problem with your solution is that it would really 'water down' the competition to get a medal since there aren't many transgender athletes compared to cisgender athletes thus lowering the skill it takes to get a medal
@@quotient9974 what about cis-women who are born with larger levels of testosterone? It does happen and alot of them end up being athletes, do they have to compete in this catagory because of their ‘unfair’ advantage?
There has recently been a study where they found trans men are certainly not at a disadvantage when it comes to athletic abilities and actually performed just as well (sometimes better, because duh, individuals have different physiques) as cis men. It wasn’t at an Olympic level (I think it was in army training), but it certainly showed our current “understanding” of athletic ability in trans men (and most probably trans women) seems to be completely incorrect.
I find the idea of creating a different league for these individuals a bit weird, considering the fact that different individuals will always have an advantage or disadvantage over others. There’s a cis female athlete whose natural testosterone levels were “too high” to compete in the women’s league, so she had to go on hormone blockers to still be able to compete. Should there also be a specific category for these individuals? And since people from certain countries have advantages over others, would that also mean we would have to create different leagues for them, since they have an inherent advantage over their competitors?
My problem is why are we redefining woman’s sports when trans people only make less than 1% of the population? It’s discriminatory to exclude trans people from competing in the binary gender divisions, but it’s not discriminatory that this exact thing is causing biological women to be at a clear disadvantage? As a black woman that run tracks, I simply think it’s unfair. Black women with high testosterones are being told that they can’t compete, but transwomen that either, got on hormone therapy not long before they started to compete or that transitioned well into their adulthood and are at a clear advantage, are allowed to compete and break records? Seems that again, ciswomen are being pushed out of one of the categories where we can truly excel.
!!!!
I always think that judging someone based on their hormone levels is… outdated. I’m a FTM transmasc person and before I even started HRT I had a way higher testosterone blood count that a typical cis womans. Was I taking steroids? We’re my trans friends exploding hormones accidentally rubbing off me? Of course not lmfao, I have PCOS. PCOS is a fairly common condition that a lot of dfab folk have, though it can often go undiagnosed. For me, the diagnosis process started when I was having blood tests because of my incredibly irregular and often excruciatingly painful menstrual cycles. Annoyingly, even though it was written down on my record that I had PCOS… none of my doctors thought to even TELL me until the one doctor that’s known me my whole life said “have you been told you have PCOS?” … No, I had not. All those years wasted worrying that I had some cancer growing inside my cervix, all that time spent worrying about dying.
Basically, cis people who have never taken any kind of HRT in their lives can still experience imbalances of testosterone / oestrogen, and I think that it’s really discriminatory to tell someone who maybe is unaware that they are sick that they’re not allowed to participate in something they love to do.
@Hadf Josso bruh shut up what do you even know about the science behind sex and gender
The issue is, HOW high?
That’s why basing it on hormones instead of sex doesn’t work. Estrogen doesn’t erase body size and structure so basing rules on it makes no sense anyways.
@Hadf Josso I'm sure a lot of things don't make sense to you.
@Hadf Josso ask literally any doctor. If “transgenderism” (lmfao) didn’t make sense, how come there are gender identity clinics, studies being conducted on the constant, doctors and surgeons specialising in helping trans folk, etc. Saying transgender people don’t make sense is like denying the moon is real 😬😬
I think sports should be devided by "body type" like muscle mass,lung capacity or other
it should also be devided differently for different sports
That would be a ridiculously high number of different categories.
@@NBDYSPCL Yeah in a perfect world it would be cool, but it’s just wayyy too unrealistic in the real world to create multiple different categories for each respective group.
And plus a lot of these things such as lung capacity is seen as a “biological advantage” when competing in your respective cis gender group (such as having naturally a good lung capacity would be an advantage against your competitors in a swimming, or track match)
There are also a lot of people who worked really hard to get women into sport who's careers would just devolve if women's leagues stopped being a thing.
Since people would mostly only watch the best performing categories anyway. This would not change much. Life is not fair and sport is not fair either. Some people like me are just not made to compete in sports. I can still do it in my free time, have fun and stay healthy. Not everyone has the right to be able to compete and get paid.
We need a new category (or two) for trans athletes. They can compete fairly amongst themselves with no concerns about discrimination.
I see MANY people that suggest this but there are reasons why they can’t make that.
1:You would have to make separate olympics for trans men and trans women.
2:they’re such a small minority of the population, it’s not likely that you would have many contestants. Plus, not as many viewers would want to watch it.
3:not every country would agree to it. So you’d probably only have a few countries competing, and they all together couldn’t fund the olympics.
@@negativezer0741Well unfortunately that's the only viable option. Trans women cannot be permitted to compete with women, end of story.
It’s not complicated. They don’t deserve to ruin girls and women’s sports, period! They can compete with men. No problem there. They’re juicing and they start with bone structure that gives advantage over technique. It is literally an unfair advantage.
I noticed that you dug in to the “anti trans women in sports” scientist’s opinions, but not the “pro trans women in sports” scientist’s opinions. I mean isn’t it just as much an issue if one of their researchers is an LGBT activist or even a vocal supporter? We should consider who funds those studies and who the researchers are. I’d only trust a study from a scientist who doesn’t have any noticeable biases on this issue funded by people who don’t have any agenda one way or the other.
That's because she had opinions against trans people, not just ones in sports. that opinion is wrong and bad, while being pro-trans is not.
scientist here, we are human beings with biases, always
Women's sports are now the open category.
I feel sorry for any women/girl who trains their entire life to fail at the final hurdle because an ex man takes her place at the finals, she'll lose recognition, potential sponsors and prize money, it's a joke allowing them.
Men in the men's category, women in the women's category. Not complicated 👍
Woman = Adult Human Female.
Men should be able to compete in female college sports.
Title IX makes it illegal to exclude someone from a college program because of his sex.
Ok so, I agree with every argument presented in this video, it is important to be cognizant of transphobia when looking at the arguments presented but some authors and scholars. What I'll add is, there is actually some evidence of the current trans athletes participating in sports as of this moment which should be taken into consideration when discussing this matter. They are clear examples of transgender athletes who are definitely dominating the field (some examples found in MMA) and some are even setting world records without precedence (powerlifting), contrasted by the fact that when they hadn't transitioned yet they were doing very poorly at men's categories (Gavin Hubbard for example)
The answer is simply, no. It isn’t fair. We’ve seen enough evidence.
Well this video aged like milk 😂
The phrase assigned sex is wrong. It is merely obvious at birth [or sooner with ultrasound] Adding the cis- prefix is unnecessary. The claim needs to be proven beyond doubt of something so unscientific. And being a TERF is good. User’s claim of fair debate is belied by clear biases.
"Those assigned male at birth vs Those assigned females at birth....." w.t.f. does that even mean. Ppl just be making sht up as they go. You arr born a male or female. U ain assigned sht. Its not homework. Trans women aren't women. If they were, you wouldn't need an adjective. Women. Man. Thats it. The fact that it has to have a word in front to quantify what kind of women it is, already negates it. Yall are some looney tunes.
i say they should let trans women play in women's sports, then observe for a few years to see if an obvious advantage shows up. Then we don't have to exclude people from sports, and we get more data. I feel like the "threat" of trans women taking over the women's category is not as big as news outlets are making it out to be since they are probably a small minority of athletes anyway
I mean, I think that has already been done. trans women have been eligible to compete on the olympics since 2004, only this year was a transgender woman seen actually competing.
A small minority that has the possibility to change the whole dynamic.
And what should women in sports do during these "few years"? Give up their dreams and years of hard work just to see if the advantage exists? If it does exist, should their careers go down the drain then? Sports be inclusive, but all women in sports should not be the ones who pay the price.
Now pretend you are a female Olympic hopeful in one of your "let's collect the data" years. You think it's fair for your future, your life, to be an experiment?
Either make a separate category for trans (more likely) or abolish gender divided sports all together (unlikely).
Answer for the question:
No
Thank me later
when it comes to sports trans women should have their own league and should only compete against other trans women
HRT doesn't make it fair. Hubbard has been given a test threshold way higher than a female. Hubbards test levels are allowed to be higher than mines and I'm a guy that weight trains 5 days a week. It's no fair, of that makes me transphobic, so be it.
I stopped listening when this person said " a doctor assigned him a male at birth" very sick delusional people.
No
As a trans girl, I’d like to thank you for making this essay and for the respect you show us because it’s truly refreshing to see, especially surrounding this specific topic
Something a lot of people miss about sports is the social aspects of it. Getting to participate in exercise and interact with your peers is a great experience for body and mind, and the fairness of competition only plays a small role in that. It really doesn’t matter what kind of bodily differences are in play if you’re doing it just for fun, let alone if you’re not playing in record-breaking competitions with million dollar prize pools. A lot of he bans in America target specifically trans kids and teens in school sports, for whom it’s even more important to get to socialize with their peers
Yeah I think having fun and connecting with your body’s is important, but so many sports and participants focus mostly on the competition. In this debate, it’s all about elite sports in which performance is key, which is why it’s important to do research and determine new categories, redefine old ones or simply reaffirm the validity of the current categories of men’s and women’s sports to include trans women and men. But in non-professional sports, I agree that the focus should be fun, and people should relax. For example, here in Canada ice based sports are important, and there’s a lesser known sport called ringette in which only girls are allowed to play. It’s a team sport and this dynamic can become a big part of a person’s life, but when trans men come out as such, they are no longer allowed to play. Progress is being made but the idea that men are better than women at sports is really impeding progress, when really men and women should be allowed to compete in this sport in mixed categories, because the performance is not important it should be about children having fun and growing up loving the sport.
Since you are trans,can I ask you if you know any trans men who are competing? I dont think they are having fun at all,especially in fighting sports.
@@ivanamicimici Why would transmen not want to enjoy sport with their peers? Even fighting someone of the same weight category, considering they would have much higher testosterone level than a woman.
@@ivanamicimici there are indeed trans men fighters of renown. You just can't be bothered looking them up, that much is evident. I can't completely blame you 100% though, media outlets do love to put the spotlight of scrutiny on trans women.
Yeah, the fact that we focus on Olympics is weird. People engaging in intramural/club sports should be able to play with their peers.
Its not complicated.... you are making it complicated....
The worst thing about this debate is the dehumanising rhetoric that is used to talk about trans people. It seems there is a undercurrent insinuation that trans people collectively want to destroy sports and want to dominate cis people instead of giving them the voice to slow that they also want to have a fair place in sports.
TRANS MEN don't even TRY to compete against cis men. Someone name one transgender Man that is in MMA or a physical sport.. you CANT because they know they would most likely get hurt so the fact that they don't speak up and say something bugs me
To me, It’s not that complicated. I may be over simplifying the issue, but in my opinion don’t make your personal issue into everyone else’s problem. Transgenders are people with gender identity issues. They are born a certain gender and rectify at a later time. I am all for people living their lives however they want, but not at the expense of someone else. When women wants to compete against higher competition, they normally try to compete against men. It would be unfair for women who doesn’t want to compete against men to be force to compete with someone was born a man.
It’s really not. If born women are being restricted because of natural testosterone then people who take blockers surely shouldn’t be allowed either
1:28
That is what the side who says "but they are male" means. Sure, they say it in the worst way possible, being rude as fuck, but when they say male they mean their biological physique. They aren't talking about their gender at all. Most people don't do that. It's a reality we'll have to accept when trying to discuss this among ourselves: most people think of biological physique when they mention male or female, or even DNA. It's just how they were raised. We won't change things by shoving a completely different school of thought down their throats, it'll only breed more resentment, and cause them to double down. Patience and kindness and understanding, even to people who hate, throughout history has shown immense progress. You can't be pushovers, but a little kindness even in the face of hate goes a long way. And you have to change your strategy.
A lot of people just don't understand, and a lack of understanding is what causes the hate. Confusion feels threatening, and when threatened people lash out. They believe that when people say 'trans women are women' they are saying their bodies look the part. When no one is saying that. They don't understand that, because, frankly, the lbgt+ community is terrible at communication and expressing what they are about. Especially the trans community. It allows a lot of misinformation to happen, and this, in turn, feeds stereotypes and hate. And allows religious people to gain a foothold, and to use ridiculous arguments and 'logic' to dismiss them.
In a nutshell, we need to be nuanced about this to ever hope to get everyone on the side of trans people. The way things are going now will get all the woke people, but to truly help them, we'll need to get the religious people on the side of trans people, too. And a vast majority just aren't. Gay people have more support.
How do I know all this? Because, until very recently, I was confused and threatened by trans people. For very different reasons from most people. I have always loved evolutionary biology, and have always hated things that were against it. Religion, for one. I just couldn't understand anyone who dismissed evolution. I was particularly fond of studying sexual dimorphism among animals, and have always considered humans just another animal. This is where trans come in. Suddenly, people came out saying, what I thought, was, "sexual dimorphism isn't real, male and females are biological" and suddenly I felt threatened. Suddenly I thought this was religion all over again. A new kind of religion, trying to erase biology all over again.
I hope this might explain why someone who isn't religious could have issues, too. I have since become an ally after talking with an actual trans person and being shown kindness and understanding, answering my questions without belittling me. Being a friend. I still have a lot of work to go, but this is how you do it. You show kindness and answer their questions.
humans display very low levels of sexual dimorphism
i reject the idea of continuing to label people male and female and pretend it means biology when it clearly means social roles as well, so no, fuck the socially constructed institution of biologically sex
you might mean well individually but that you think anyone is out to erase science is a red flag
your speech about why trans people should be nicer is cute though
problem is minorities don't owe anyone politeness especially while living in a society designed to traumatize them
@@zoedegenerate6703 Er, it's low compared to many animals, but high compared to many others. Were pretty close in the middle when you look at sexual dimorphism in the animal kingdom. Maybe on the lower-mid level. Because we are pretty similar compared to most animals. It's complicated.
"problem is minorities don't owe anyone politeness especially while living in a society designed to traumatize them"
And this is the mindset that causes more suffering for everyone. It's self defeating. There is a difference between standing up to something and being mean because you don't 'owe' anyone politeness. It creates bitter, sad, angry people.
@@zoedegenerate6703
"you might mean well individually but that you think anyone is out to erase science is a red flag"
I do not think that. I said I THOUGHT that. Past tense. My entire comment was about me overcoming my past thoughts. People change all the time. If they didn't, trans people would have basically zero allies today.
"And this is the mindset that causes more suffering for everyone. It's self defeating. There is a difference between standing up to something and being mean because you don't 'owe' anyone politeness. It creates bitter, sad, angry people."
I feel like this is very easy to say for someone who isn't directly affected by the oppression in question. I was nearly killed by my bullies in high school due to them being ableist towards me and other autistic people. And the trauma from that moment still affects me to this day, and I can really understand all my female and LGBT+ friends for not being very kind towards the majority of society when we're treated like that just for being ourselves and existing.
I do agree that that's probably more effective in the long term, but I just feel like it's pretty callous and uncaring to ignore the suffering that these systems of oppression cause that make people lash out like this in the first place.
I'm definitely not trying to erase your experiences, and it's good that you managed to change your views, but I just thought I'd share mine, so you can maybe understand what it feels like to live in a society that dehumanizes and treats you like shit at every turn and then have people expecting you to not have issues with the society that treats you so poorly. I also do have to admit I used to hate trans and especially nonbinary people myself, since I just saw their very existence that I couldn't wrap my head around at the time as a personal threat to me, as I saw it as yet another change that this confusing, hostile society was trying to force on me to deliberately make it as hard as possible to just get by and communicate properly in society. I eventually got out of that after I stopped watching alt-right channels and after I learned about the similar and oftentimes worse oppression that trans people face, which allowed me to sympathize with them and eventually understand them a lot better, but it was very much up to me to unlearn these prejudices, not up to the people I was prejudiced against to be patient and kind towards me. That's mainly what I'm trying to get at here.
Often times for autistic people, LGBTQ+ people and people of color, just dealing with the oppression on a daily basis takes up a lot of energy for us, so we don't often have the strength to be patient and kind towards people (regarding the topic of equal and fair treatment for us) who we don't know whether they'll be receptive to it at all. We understand it must be done by someone, but placing it on us is definitely a big burden to carry.
Trans women in sports are fair, trans women in women's sports is not fair.
all i remember was during biology class my teacher told us men are physically stronger than woman.
@ok ok nope, their skeleton and muscle doesn't change, howcome there's no women pretending to be a man can beat or break the records of the elite men, but when a man pretending to be a women compete against women in any sport they break the records easily.
@ok ok i used to be an athlete, i know for a fact that biological man are physically stronger than biological women, my country has a representative for olympics, she's a real woman and gonna compete against a biological male, her team wanted to complain but the olympics is afraid of the backlash and cancel culture. i surely hope all the biological women in that game will boycott that game, if they let this continue this will be the end of woman sport. and no it's not about "worrying stealing your men" stuff. it's unfair when a biological man compete agains biological women, they should just add a trans division.
Careful bigots may attack you.
@ok ok It's obvious in my comment.
A hint is enough for the wise. Now you decide whether you are one or not. Lol indeed!!
@ok ok You're so pitiful like we are jealous of you while you all are basically transformers and try to be like us anytime when we are the original women we are amazing anytime ! Stay in your madness while we biological women are winning.
No its not complicated ... it simply should never be allowed because of the physiological advantage!!!
Every time I see that you post a video about something controversial I become so relieved bc I know you’re going to break it down in a logical yet respectful way
Well this aged like milk
My neighbor used to box and was asking me about trans people, their physiology as they transition, and whether or not theyd be in a fair fight in boxing. It came down to him saying that Mayweather, assuming he IS the best male boxer in the world, would undoubtedly beat any transman boxer and any woman boxer that challeneged him even if they were the best female or trans boxer in the world. What started as a reasonable conversation with him becoming educated just ultimately turned into him saying absolutely no one born with female genitalia could ever beat Mayweather or even any of the cismale boxers tiered just below him. Made me realize he wasnt nearly as interested in becoming educated as he was in trying to prove an objectively sexist, transphobic point. One that literally cannot be proven one way or the other because theres 7.5 billion people on the planet and we have absolutely no clue if Mayweather is actually anywhere near the best boxer ever.
Why does his opinion equate to transphobia? The best female soccer team in the world lost to an under 15 boys team in an official game and both Serena and Venus Williams competed against the same guy in one day at the height of their careers, literally the best female tennis players in the world, lost to some German dude ranked 203 in the world in an unofficial game.
It just seems from the evidence we have that he might be right. In which case, in a way, he was actually educating *you* .
Don't get me wrong I wish we were just as strong as men, so that women as well as those with female genialia who don't identify as women, wouldn't have to be so afraid when they're out on the streets at night. But that's just not the case is it.
@@bums009 i generally disagree on the basis that we don't have a large enough sample size of who actually has the ability to be the best. Also something he refused to consider is the fact that a transmans physiology can change so drastically, especially if he's been on T since puberty, that he very well COULD be just as athletically inclined as any cismale athlete. Something my neighbor was refusing to believe on the basis of a transman being born with female genitalia. And as this video pointed out, none of the studies done on this subject hold water as it's all hypotheses being declared is if they're facts. There simply isn't enough reasonable objective evidence nor are there any unbiased studies being done.
Tldr; my neighbor still believes cismen to be above and beyond any other group when it comes to physical ability
@@cal5266 they are
I don't think it's complicated at all. You've decided to change your gender good for you. Now here's some consequences, real life consequences. No you can't go against real women in sports. Feel free to create your own sport organization. That is what freedom is all about. And more importantly freedom of association. Now if one of these women sports organizations allow transgender people to participate then okay but if the other women object to it and they leave to search for a different organization then you lose your athletes. Being forced to have these people compete is the real issue.
I can really see the increase in production quality of your content, loving it.
I don’t think it’s a question of significant advantage, but any advantages. Margins are close at the top
Does it make sense to categorize non-contact sports by levels instead of the woman-man categorization? The level/score of a person is determined by their previous performances. Men and women on the same levels can compete.
Yeah but this is just redundant because you’d have the same problem that caused women’s sports to exist in the first place. Every single highest level would be filled with men and it would be unfair to women because they literally could never beat men because at the HIGHEST level, whether we like it or not, the best player of a sport or the strongest st an event will always be a MALE competitor. We have women’s sports to keep it fair. We could just have a transgendered category. It would keep it fair and be less effort than your suggestion
@@quotient9974 next black men are not able to compete in running since they dominated this field for decades - biological advantages due to genetics have always been a thing - but somehow testosterone was picked as the be all end all
@@ytho4426 Well I guess we should then start splitting groups into testosterone classes
women and men with natural higher testosterone would have an unfair advantage otherwise, right? And what about trans women, who have reached a very low amount fo testosterone? are they then allowed in the in-group?
And what about other factors that can give you advantage? Where does this end and where does it begin?
@@sweetgirl494 you ever heard of weight classes? Age based competition categories? Lol
In many non-contact sports, there are age based divisions, which is almost literally a testosterone based division as testosterone decreases with age and so does performance, not exactly the causation entirely but it contributes.
Men and women on the same levels can't compete though? I mean the U.S soccer team were the winners of the female world cup and yet they couldn't beat an under 15's boys team.
You think they would be able to compete with the winners of the male world cup?
I wish we could compete with men physically like that, but that's just not a reality.
Men vs Men .. Women vs Women .. Trans vs Trans .. that seems fair
This issue is actually quite simple. There are men’s sports and there are women’s sports.
Its obviously an unfair advantage. The trans woman competing in the Olympics couldn't qualify for 30+ years as a male even throughout his prime, now she is a woman she easily qualified even when far older than other competitors.
Literally every time a transwoman wins a competition or does well, its revealed they either did nothing or sucked as a man. Surely this is proof of unfair advantage, if you couldn't win or even place for 30+ years as a male but suddenly smash records as a woman outside prime age.
Also you never hear about transmen smashing male records even though they're taking steroids which the cis men aren't allowed to do.
ikr, it's crazy that people think there is any debate to be done at all
Oh yeah sure, trans womens are dominating women sports for sure
i think the issue arises when a trans woman does not take hormones, not to say theres anything wrong with that choice, but it does impact how the sports are played therefore must be a factor (imo)
I think there should be a trans category. We should create trans women gymnastics or trans women volleyball. Same for trans men.
Or categories that aren't gender restricted, so you don't have to be assigned to a gender. There's always an issue with categories being underfunded or lack of participation. For instance, in Queen's Gambit, she plays in the men's category in chess. Similarly, I live in a small town so my sister (now sibling) played in men's tennis as well.
@@liriodendronlasianthus then we need to push for those categories to be funded. Do you really think creating that category will solve the underfunding issue? No.
It’s not complicated, simple answer is no. Make another division for transgender
I just have to listen to that voice and that tells me all I need to know what direction this video is going to go.Make it simple, go back to how it has been for thousands of years, born men compete with born men born women compete with born women.