It actually looks like it could work well as a fine work cutting torch on thin steel, like cutting back rusty rocker panels, or burning out spot welds. Maybe try using brazing flux and thin strands of electrical wire and see if you can use it to gas weld some copper pieces
Long time since I did this, join thin pieces of sheet metal using an oxyacetylene torch, a quite small one for the thinner gauges, the process was to do just what a TIG torch would do, join the 2 pieces of sheet metal with addition of filler metal, a 0.045" TIG filler rod would be used as an add on filler. Your tiny torch seem to have a very precise and narrow flame, also wondering if the combustion gases would do like TIG or oxyacetylene processes provide proper shielding during the operation... This has potential in micro welding situations...
Hi Pierre, I've only just scratched the surface with this little torch. We all have to think in micro scale with this little gadget, but it's a lot like it's big brothers in flame shape etc. So far I've mainly concentrated on "how big" it can handle. Now I will look at "how well" it can do it. The fact that it costs virtually nothing to run means hours of endless fun :) Cheers Rob
That was quite a heavy piece of copper you were heating and also being held in the vice would have caused the heat to be soaked away so perhaps try it with thinner material.
Great piece of equipment, redo the solder job, have the flame from below, Eh! It won't burn up the flux, which inhibited the flow of the solder in your instance!
I have seen a couple of videos where people are soldering with one of these systems and having problems. I wonder if the problem might be that the flame is slightly on the oxidising side. Although the hydrogen and oxygen are produced in the right ratio for complete combustion. When you have the flame in air it is drawing in oxygen from the surrounding atmosphere thats why you get a good cutting flame, you can see the sparks indicating the steel is burning in exess oxygen. You mentioned in your earlier video that the manufacturers sugest using meths or acetone in the buble trap to control temperature. I wonder if that is actually to add additional fuel in the form of alcohol vapour to bring the flame back to neutral from oxidising. It's good to see someone who reviews kit from China dispassionately rather than starting with the "it's Chinese it must be rubbish attitude" we see from people intent on defending their own domestic industries an any cost. These products allow the backyard engineer access to technology at a price point that would otherwise be unatainable to the run of the mill guy. Thanks for all of your videos really interesting and enjoyable.
Thanks for the positives. When soldering with ANY torch you should keep the flame away from the solder as much as possible as it will oxidise the lead and cause adhesion issues. The test in the video really pushed the torch due to the heat loss from the copper plate. Even so, the torch performed OK. I could have done a neat job by tinning both sections and then sweating them together. I deliberately did it as per the video to surface melt a significant amount of solder and see if it would capillerate etc (which it did). Using different liquids in the bubbler can do as you suggest. Cheers Rob
Hi Chris, it doesn't like high heat loss jobs as the Bthu's just aren't there. It's designed for micro work and that's what it's meant for. It handles soldering quite well and would be great for small copper pipes on model engines etc, but that's about it. I tried melting an aluminium CPU heatsink fin with it and no go - just too much cooling effect. I managed to do some 3 mm steel rod bronze brazing jobs with it and that was it's limit. So it would do the conrods for the Stirling engines I recently made, no problem. Silver solder would also be a bit easier for it. It's a fascinating thing and I've given the little Sherline microl lathe lots of work machining jets etc with it. What a great little unit that is. If I was stuck for space and had no workshop I would still have that lathe - it's simply amazing. Cheers Rob
I think your soldering demo shows the common problem with this type of system, in that there is a lot of temperature but not a lot of heat. Have you tried changing the bubbling container from water to one of the alternatives, a mate of mine uses MEK in his.
Not yet. One step at a time. The Bthu's are definitely low, but it's a small unit and meant for small work. I will push it as far as I can, but at the end of the day there is a limit to what it can do. It didn't do too badly, as I doubt you could even solder that join with an electric iron given the obvious heat loss. Cheers Rob
"lot of temperature but not a lot of heat" - what a meaningless stupid statement if I've ever seen one... It has nothing to do with anything you're saying. He needs more flux and better technique.
So how much sodium hydroxide or potassium hydroxide did you use ?? I Solder all day on mine stainless steel pins with 56 silver solder i use 200 grams of sodium hydroxide per liter of distilled water i pull 23.6 volts at 9.2 to 9.4 amps i changed the crappy analog meter for a digital one i also use 70 % ipa in the bubbler in place of water
@@XynuduOK thanks for that. But some say the arrestor is to prevent an explosion in the bubbler itself!? .Please clarify as I want to build an hho rig in a safe way.
An arrestor (at the torch) will prevent an explosion (small) in the gas hose and bubbler. The bubbler has a blow off valve as well so no damage can occur. The flash cannot get to the HHO generating pressure cylinder because of the bubbler liquid barrier. I now used a torch with a flashback arrestor built into it and that has stopped any fashback reaching the gas line. Another key factor in preventing flashback is to use methylated spirits (denatured alcohol) and acetone in the bubbler (3:1 ratio) rather than water. The flame is longer and I have not had any flashback with this mix, which was advice given to me by an ex jeweller. Cheers Rob
@@Xynudu Thanks SO MUCH for that , it's given me LOTS of new info. Just 2 more questions please. What material you use in the torch arrestor and do you have an idea of the minimum size of plates/generator container to produce enough gas to melt copper/gold etc. Much appreciated
I have not disassembled the flash back arrestor so I can't comment on what it is, however, they appear to be a fine porous material such as used in aquarium bubble makers and brass fuel filters. I have no idea of plate sizes required relative to gas output. Cheers Rob
No, this is probably coloured by sodium atoms in the flame. Yellow flame with Acetylene and so on is coused by carbon particles that glow in the flame. Hydrogen with oxygen flame have no carbon.
Hi Geoffrey, apart from the initial electrolyte cost (calcium hydroxide) and some distilled water (both cheap), the only other cost is 300 watts of continuous electricity use while generating gas. The electrolyte solution is very slowly consumed, so compared to other heating torches it basically costs next to nothing to run. That makes it extremely appealing. Cheers Rob
4 роки тому
I think your propane gas torch would have soldered that better than HHO torch. This is for very fine jewellery work. I thought you would have made your own brown gas generator rather than buy one.
I have never seen anyone use flammable gas as a shield. All the standard shield gases such as Helium, CO2, argon, nitrogen are non combustable/non oxidising gases for a reason. Show me some evidence and I might believe you.
@@Xynudu well, see my guess is that the gas, while being a flame (a kind of plasma) is by definition a neutral flame. It seems to really like to oxidize steel though and I've seen some really crummy soldering done with it.... But I'm thinking that it might work as is as a tig brazing flame if you actually add soapstone to the weld surface and rod. I remember a friend who actually had the flux in powder form for oxyacetylene in a special delivery pressure tank. I don't recall if it was powder or liquid. Either way is way cheaper than getting an argon tank as a consumable. This is why I'm asking around to see if someone has actually tried and discovered a way to make it work.
@@EitriBrokkr Theoretically, hydrogen and oxygen burn completely at 2:1 mixing ratio. In practice, at least 4:1 is needed so that no free oxygen hits and oxidizes the metal.
@@Xynudu That's the point that everyone needs to keep in mind. Rob is exploring the pros cons and limits here and that is what we all want to know about this tool. My MAP torch will brew a lovely cuppa without burning a hole in the shed kettle but I wouldn't want to host a garden party with it. Horses for courses. Oh and while I'm here .22LR for doves not 44/40.
@@SuperKoaren Got to be careful not to introduce oxygen or hydrogen in the brazed or welded materials, copper is real sensitive to this introduction, other materials are also but to a lesser point. Another point is that the result of that combustion is pure 100% water.
interesting torch, but a horrible soldering job. solder & the soldering agent (flux) should be applied at the same time. so that as it cleans it draws the solder into the join. any black (carbonization) shows, you need to stop, clean & start over
I'm sure these things have got their uses, but you could do a far better and neater job of that soldering in a tenth of the time with a normal plumbers blowlamp. These things look more use for jewellery work, they are not man enough for large stuff that has the mass to draw the heat away.
No semi auto or auto weapons allowed unless for a specific occupational reason - eg. vermin control. No pistols unless in a gun club for target use only. Everything else is OK. Controls are not as lax as in the good old USA, where firearms deaths equal car crash deaths.. Cheers Rob
@@Xynudu Auto deaths span all demographics, age groups and geographical areas while firearms deaths are largely concentrated in smaller demographic and urban areas
Statistics don't lie. People quite readily accept thousands of people dying in road crashes, and turn a blind eye (in the USA) to an equal number of needless deaths from firearms, yet get in a rage when a massacre occurs. If a bus load of tourists gets wiped out it's a tragedy for a week maybe. An equal shooting massacre can be a tragedy much longer. Go figure human values. Compare Australian gun deaths and road deaths per head of population to the USA equivalent. Something is seriously wrong in the USA. I used to work in road safety. Cheers Rob
@@Xynudu 2017 US road deaths were 37,473 while homicides using guns was 14,542. NTSC and Wikipedia. But that still way high. In rural US guns often outnumber people yet the number of gun related homicides are very low, 0 in my county in 2017, Blaming guns MIGHT be blaming the messenger.
xynudu you really need to find out why people want to shoot each other and why they think it is ok to do so if you are trying to reduce the incidence of deliberate shootings (most automobile deaths are due to accident or stupidity), in a place like Britain were until recent decades shootings were vanishingly small as a cause of death and injury you have to look at demographic changes and the shock effect that individual disaffected assassins hope to create through their atrocities since laws controlling the mass of the population will have no effect whatsoever on motivated individuals!
Interesting, I’ve heard of these but first time I’ve seen one in action
Playing with Fire in the man cave. Fun way to pass the time. Thanks for sharing.
You bet, and it costs virtually nothing to run. What could be better :)
Hi Rob , knew you were going to have fun trying it out , enjoy 👍
It actually looks like it could work well as a fine work cutting torch on thin steel, like cutting back rusty rocker panels, or burning out spot welds. Maybe try using brazing flux and thin strands of electrical wire and see if you can use it to gas weld some copper pieces
Long time since I did this, join thin pieces of sheet metal using an oxyacetylene torch, a quite small one for the thinner gauges, the process was to do just what a TIG torch would do, join the 2 pieces of sheet metal with addition of filler metal, a 0.045" TIG filler rod would be used as an add on filler.
Your tiny torch seem to have a very precise and narrow flame, also wondering if the combustion gases would do like TIG or oxyacetylene processes provide proper shielding during the operation...
This has potential in micro welding situations...
Hi Pierre, I've only just scratched the surface with this little torch. We all have to think in micro scale with this little gadget, but it's a lot like it's big brothers in flame shape etc.
So far I've mainly concentrated on "how big" it can handle. Now I will look at "how well" it can do it.
The fact that it costs virtually nothing to run means hours of endless fun :)
Cheers Rob
That was quite a heavy piece of copper you were heating and also being held in the vice would have caused the heat to be soaked away so perhaps try it with thinner material.
Great piece of equipment, redo the solder job, have the flame from below, Eh! It won't burn up the flux, which inhibited the flow of the solder in your instance!
interesting experiments, like
Wouldn't braising work a bit better if you just focused the flame on a small area of the joint, to get it hotter, instead of heating it all around?
I have seen a couple of videos where people are soldering with one of these systems and having problems.
I wonder if the problem might be that the flame is slightly on the oxidising side. Although the hydrogen and oxygen are produced in the right ratio for complete combustion. When you have the flame in air it is drawing in oxygen from the surrounding atmosphere thats why you get a good cutting flame, you can see the sparks indicating the steel is burning in exess oxygen.
You mentioned in your earlier video that the manufacturers sugest using meths or acetone in the buble trap to control temperature. I wonder if that is actually to add additional fuel in the form of alcohol vapour to bring the flame back to neutral from oxidising.
It's good to see someone who reviews kit from China dispassionately rather than starting with the "it's Chinese it must be rubbish attitude" we see from people intent on defending their own domestic industries an any cost. These products allow the backyard engineer access to technology at a price point that would otherwise be unatainable to the run of the mill guy.
Thanks for all of your videos really interesting and enjoyable.
Thanks for the positives. When soldering with ANY torch you should keep the flame away from the solder as much as possible as it will oxidise the lead and cause adhesion issues.
The test in the video really pushed the torch due to the heat loss from the copper plate. Even so, the torch performed OK. I could have done a neat job by tinning both sections and then sweating them together.
I deliberately did it as per the video to surface melt a significant amount of solder and see if it would capillerate etc (which it did).
Using different liquids in the bubbler can do as you suggest.
Cheers Rob
Still showing a lot of potential but for sure that CU was a real heat-sucker! :)
Hi Chris, it doesn't like high heat loss jobs as the Bthu's just aren't there. It's designed for micro work and that's what it's meant for.
It handles soldering quite well and would be great for small copper pipes on model engines etc, but that's about it. I tried melting an aluminium CPU heatsink fin with it and no go - just too much cooling effect.
I managed to do some 3 mm steel rod bronze brazing jobs with it and that was it's limit. So it would do the conrods for the Stirling engines I recently made, no problem. Silver solder would also be a bit easier for it.
It's a fascinating thing and I've given the little Sherline microl lathe lots of work machining jets etc with it. What a great little unit that is. If I was stuck for space and had no workshop I would still have that lathe - it's simply amazing.
Cheers Rob
However you slice it Rob - you are going to enjoy having that unit :)
I think your soldering demo shows the common problem with this type of system, in that there is a lot of temperature but not a lot of heat. Have you tried changing the bubbling container from water to one of the alternatives, a mate of mine uses MEK in his.
Not yet. One step at a time.
The Bthu's are definitely low, but it's a small unit and meant for small work. I will push it as far as I can, but at the end of the day there is a limit to what it can do.
It didn't do too badly, as I doubt you could even solder that join with an electric iron given the obvious heat loss. Cheers Rob
"lot of temperature but not a lot of heat" - what a meaningless stupid statement if I've ever seen one... It has nothing to do with anything you're saying. He needs more flux and better technique.
How many Oz's of silver or gold can u melt
it oxidized steel , even with acetone , any luck welding steel with anything other than acetylene?
So how much sodium hydroxide or potassium hydroxide did you use ?? I
Solder all day on mine stainless steel pins with 56 silver solder i use 200 grams of sodium hydroxide per liter of distilled water i pull 23.6 volts at 9.2 to 9.4 amps i changed the crappy analog meter for a digital one i also use 70 % ipa in the bubbler in place of water
ua-cam.com/video/rD8XyicU_bo/v-deo.html
Very nice . What type of flashback arrestor you using?
None. Just the bubbler.
@@XynuduOK thanks for that. But some say the arrestor is to prevent an explosion in the bubbler itself!? .Please clarify as I want to build an hho rig in a safe way.
An arrestor (at the torch) will prevent an explosion (small) in the gas hose and bubbler. The bubbler has a blow off valve as well so no damage can occur. The flash cannot get to the HHO generating pressure cylinder because of the bubbler liquid barrier. I now used a torch with a flashback arrestor built into it and that has stopped any fashback reaching the gas line. Another key factor in preventing flashback is to use methylated spirits (denatured alcohol) and acetone in the bubbler (3:1 ratio) rather than water. The flame is longer and I have not had any flashback with this mix, which was advice given to me by an ex jeweller. Cheers Rob
@@Xynudu Thanks SO MUCH for that , it's given me LOTS of new info. Just 2 more questions please. What material you use in the torch arrestor and do you have an idea of the minimum size of plates/generator container to produce enough gas to melt copper/gold etc. Much appreciated
I have not disassembled the flash back arrestor so I can't comment on what it is, however, they appear to be a fine porous material such as used in aquarium bubble makers and brass fuel filters. I have no idea of plate sizes required relative to gas output. Cheers Rob
Doesn’t the yellow flame carbonise the joint?
No, this is probably coloured by sodium atoms in the flame. Yellow flame with Acetylene and so on is coused by carbon particles that glow in the flame. Hydrogen with oxygen flame have no carbon.
hi rob,can you do what it cost to run,money .thanks
Hi Geoffrey, apart from the initial electrolyte cost (calcium hydroxide) and some distilled water (both cheap), the only other cost is 300 watts of continuous electricity use while generating gas. The electrolyte solution is very slowly consumed, so compared to other heating torches it basically costs next to nothing to run. That makes it extremely appealing. Cheers Rob
I think your propane gas torch would have soldered that better than HHO torch. This is for very fine jewellery work. I thought you would have made your own brown gas generator rather than buy one.
Hi Tony, I'm sure it would have. I didn't buy the generator - Banggood gave it to me. Cheers Rob
Wouldn't this be good as shielding gas for TIG?
Shielding gas has to be inert. This is highly volatile.
@@Xynudu it doesn't have to be really. All it has to do is to eliminate the oxygen around the area. That and also become plasma.
I have never seen anyone use flammable gas as a shield.
All the standard shield gases such as Helium, CO2, argon, nitrogen are non combustable/non oxidising gases for a reason.
Show me some evidence and I might believe you.
@@Xynudu well, see my guess is that the gas, while being a flame (a kind of plasma) is by definition a neutral flame. It seems to really like to oxidize steel though and I've seen some really crummy soldering done with it.... But I'm thinking that it might work as is as a tig brazing flame if you actually add soapstone to the weld surface and rod. I remember a friend who actually had the flux in powder form for oxyacetylene in a special delivery pressure tank. I don't recall if it was powder or liquid. Either way is way cheaper than getting an argon tank as a consumable. This is why I'm asking around to see if someone has actually tried and discovered a way to make it work.
Your problem is dirty surfaces and not enough flux. You're heating the copper and it's oxidizing.
Nice to see, but pretty useless. A larger unit that separated hydrogen and oxygen so the mixing ratio was adjustable would be interesting. :)
It all depends upon what sized job you are working on. Just like small lathes versus big lathes - they make them for a reason. Cheers Rob
@@EitriBrokkr Theoretically, hydrogen and oxygen burn completely at 2:1 mixing ratio. In practice, at least 4:1 is needed so that no free oxygen hits and oxidizes the metal.
@@Xynudu That's the point that everyone needs to keep in mind. Rob is exploring the pros cons and limits here and that is what we all want to know about this tool. My MAP torch will brew a lovely cuppa without burning a hole in the shed kettle but I wouldn't want to host a garden party with it. Horses for courses. Oh and while I'm here .22LR for doves not 44/40.
@@SuperKoaren Got to be careful not to introduce oxygen or hydrogen in the brazed or welded materials, copper is real sensitive to this introduction, other materials are also but to a lesser point. Another point is that the result of that combustion is pure 100% water.
Dead right on both counts ;)
interesting torch, but a horrible soldering job. solder & the soldering agent (flux) should be applied at the same time. so that as it cleans it draws the solder into the join. any black (carbonization) shows, you need to stop, clean & start over
I'm sure these things have got their uses, but you could do a far better and neater job of that soldering in a tenth of the time with a normal plumbers blowlamp. These things look more use for jewellery work, they are not man enough for large stuff that has the mass to draw the heat away.
Correct, but we are looking to see what it can do.
What??? I didn’t think Australians were allowed to own firearms!
No semi auto or auto weapons allowed unless for a specific occupational reason - eg. vermin control.
No pistols unless in a gun club for target use only. Everything else is OK.
Controls are not as lax as in the good old USA, where firearms deaths equal car crash deaths.. Cheers Rob
@@Xynudu Auto deaths span all demographics, age groups and geographical areas while firearms deaths are largely concentrated in smaller demographic and urban areas
Statistics don't lie. People quite readily accept thousands of people dying in road crashes, and turn a blind eye (in the USA) to an equal number of needless deaths from firearms, yet get in a rage when a massacre occurs. If a bus load of tourists gets wiped out it's a tragedy for a week maybe. An equal shooting massacre can be a tragedy much longer. Go figure human values. Compare Australian gun deaths and road deaths per head of population to the USA equivalent. Something is seriously wrong in the USA. I used to work in road safety. Cheers Rob
@@Xynudu 2017 US road deaths were 37,473 while homicides using guns was 14,542.
NTSC and Wikipedia. But that still way high. In rural US guns often outnumber people yet the number of gun related homicides are very low, 0 in my county in 2017, Blaming guns MIGHT be blaming the messenger.
xynudu you really need to find out why people want to shoot each other and why they think it is ok to do so if you are trying to reduce the incidence of deliberate shootings (most automobile deaths are due to accident or stupidity), in a place like Britain were until recent decades shootings were vanishingly small as a cause of death and injury you have to look at demographic changes and the shock effect that individual disaffected assassins hope to create through their atrocities since laws controlling the mass of the population will have no effect whatsoever on motivated individuals!
This is clearly no way to solder.