""HERES"" - the PROBLEM with all this SPEED jargon/bullshit, if a bullet has to travel over 2,200fps to be optimum preforming,,,,then WHY in HELL is the OLD .45-70 GOV - so damn effective at 1,800fps,,,, & what's the point of INCREASING the SPEED with light for caliber PROJECTILES for SELF DEFENSE ranges which is typically 7 - 15 yards if you get SO MUCH ""OVER"" penetration, like the 3 projectiles in this video, the WHOLE POINT to self defense loads is to strike there INTENDED target DUMP all/most of there ENERGY and cause massive wound damage in there target not waste it like these 3 did by OVER PENETRATING, all of these bullets leave you EXTREMELY liable to striking an innocent person.....nah I'll stay with good reliable personal defense loads, which most gain 75 - 150 fps when fired from a 16" barrel compared to a 6" barrel... And if you DO want a lever gun that is going to produce velocity greater than 2,200 in a pistol caliber then just get a Big Horn Armory, chambered in .460S&W mag....... Furthermore, here is the proof that I offer,,,if a .44mag is efficient enough to take a 800/1000 pound bull ELK @ 150 yards from a 8-3/8" barrel (Elmer Keith creator of the .44mag) one shot kill - then I believe NO I'm positive that a .44mag from a 16" barrel gaining a 100fps is more than adequate for 2 legged animals at 7 - 15 self defense yards.....
I appreciate your comment. What was a little too buried in the video was the concept of stopping power. Sure, the fantastic .357 Magnum, as well as the 44 Mag and 45 Colt area very effective cartridges and they render lifelessness very efficiently, but I hoped to point out the difference between rendering something lifeless and stopping a threat. Studies from the FBI labs and others have proven that velocities below 2200 fps can leave a short delay between bullet impact and the cessation of a threat (being stopped). And in a firefight, that few second delay can be disastrous. What I showed in the video was that true "stopping power" can be had with pistol caliber leverguns, but I also concluded the video with the warning that these loads, especially the two magnums come at a cost. And that is over penetration. Thanks for watching!
85% of people survive being shot with a handgun... 66% survive being shot by a rifle (with disability being many times higher)... and only 1% survive being shot with a shotgun. Rifle bullets are significantly more effective than handguns due to their velocity. (though shotguns are king and they don't even come close to 2200fps). The speed of a rifle bullet will cause an area of damage (to organs and surrounding tissue) while a handgun bullet only pokes holes (small holes). Also, the holes poked by handgun bullets don't get much bigger when you use larger calibers. A 10mm bullet hole is about the same as a 9mm/.380/.357 if not mistaken.
One point that needs to be highlighted is why velocity is so important. Sub 2,200 fps and you get a temporary wound channel where "stuff" inside just stretches. Inconvenient but not necessarily a threat stopper, at least right away. Up to a point, things remain elastic and will survive and continue to function through the unexpected intrusion. Over 2,200 fps, "stuff" begins to shred and explode due to a number of factors, hydraulic forces being one of them. Threats tend to stop sooner when internal systems blow up and are shredded. None of this matters if accurate shot placement isn't attained. As to your comment about the .45-70, penetration and breaking bones were viewed as most important back in the 1800's when killing bison and eliminating a resource base of the Native American were key. Materials sciences, ballistics and FBI studies of shootings were not a thing back then. Things have changed over the past 150 years, except for one thing. Speed kills. One last thing, look up those links.
Good to see you back George. Hope life is settling down for you and you are getting all of your family matters sorted out. I need to commend you on the high production value of your videos. While you were gone I had to suffer through some others and I mean SUFFER. Your photography is excellent as is your presentation. Thanks for the well presented information.
Back in the day when the army got the 45 Colt revolver. It's been written that a 250 gr cast bullet running approximately 900 fps would shoot side to side thru a horse. I shoot 260 gr cast in my 45 Colt Vaqueros and my 45 Colt Rossi 92. Haven't chronoed the Vaqueros but the Rossi is averaging 1350 fps. I really don't think we need all that speed. Those big slugs will handle anything I need them to.
@@TargetSuite Truthfully if I lived in the city, especially in a apartment complex, I wouldn't use my 45's as one might go thru a bad guy then the wall and hit my neighbor. Shotgun with bird shot would be my choice. Out here in the country if I had to handle a bad guy, besides cleaning up the mess I might have to patch a hole in the wall. No neighbors to worry about.
This is great content in all aspects of the word. Your editing is great, the music, calm voice, super educational information, and the list goes on and on. 10/10 keep up the great work.
Welcome back George, enjoy your videos! I’m a lever gun junky too but, this looks like a solution looking for a problem to me. Typically a pistol caliber carbine in a home defense situation especially a 357 mag 125 grain jhp will dump all of its energy in a thoracic cavity with little over penetration. If you live in a rural environment and are looking for hydrostatic shock in a lever gun use a 30-30 with 125 or 150 grain bullets, just make sure no one is in a room behind the intended target. Take care and “ lever on “!
All three revolver rounds are proven effective rounds in handguns at handgun velocities. I really am skeptical of the need for 2200 fps. Sure it might be somewhat better but necessary i do not think so. The 357 has a track record as a personal defense cartridge in revolvers for a long time at velocities much lower. I have never felt defenseless with a 357 even in 2 1/2 inch revolvers so in my Rossi 16 inch I am most confident in its effectiveness. I have used a 357 revolver on two bears neither gave any problem after a few applications of 158 grain JSP.
I understand John. And that is certainly conventional wisdom. But the historical facts (FBI data, the NRA study and medical journals) show that even the venerable .357 mag often won't immediately stop a determined or drug fueled threat, whereas a reasonably placed rifle shot will.
@@TargetSuite Maybe so but if in that sort of situation better grab a 12 gauge stuffed with buckshot. Frankly I doubt anything the FBI says these days and if all that is true why are they shooting 9mm ??????
@@johngallagher2313 I really appreciate your comments and you've asked the $64k question related to the FBI's choice of 9mm. And the answer can be found in the links that I have put in the description. Those articles all come to the same general conclusion and that is for the most part all handgun cartridges are just about equal when it comes to lethality if the proper bullet is used but also, all but the super Magnum handgun cartridges fail equally when it comes to true stopping power. So I believe the conclusion that the FBI came to was just pick a cartridge that everyone can shoot well because that matters a whole lot more than whether or not it's a hot 10mm, a 45, a 40, a 9 mm or a 380. And with all that said I was not recommending a pistol caliber lever gun for personal defense, only addressing the current craze about using one as a tactical weapon. And then of course the hypervelocity loads that I presented did indeed take the pistol caliber lever gun into the realm of a rifle when it comes to close-range effectiveness at immediately stopping a threat. And I guess the limitation of UA-cam videos is that if I were to have included all of that in detail in the video it would have been 30 minutes long and no one would have watched it😄
Never mind how many people have been dropped over the decades with the 158gn LRN slug of the .38 Spl at an embarrassing 755fps(nobody told those people that they weren't supposed to die due to inadequate energy/velocity).
Great video. For personal defense I always think of that happening in the home where having too much power is a bad thing. In that sense the pistol caliber carbine is the perfect weapon choice since those defense pistol rounds will be somewhat more effective (depends on the round) out of the carbine without over penetrating. Using that criteria the 357 round was the clear winner. For hunting, those other rounds would be awesome.
It's really great to have you back! And we'll take your wisdom and great shooting and testing and analysis ANYTIME it works for you. Thanks for your hard work and always excellent content!
Btw @Target Suite I ran across your channel a few days ago and I wish I would have found it years ago. Love the format, informative and also entertaining which is a hard balance to create for any creator. Great job, keep it up please.
Just came across your channel. You put in a lot of work for these tests, and answered an interesting question. Thanks for adding value in this hard to break into market. You just got a new subscriber.
Not particularly worried about one-shot-stops with 10 rounds of factory 45LC in the tube. With practice, multiple rounds on target with low recoil (compared to your examples) pistol loads in my carbine is very doable. If this is your only option, practice, practice, practice. If I want 2000fps out of a levergun, I reach for the 30-30. As usual, great content! Welcome back, George.
@@TargetSuite I find it crazy that handgun rounds overpenetrate much worse than rifle bullets (regardless of velocity). Makes sense when you do the research... but unexpected.
@@64samsky A powerful handgun round. Sometimes handguns (and probably a few rifles) are chambered to shoot 45lc and .410 shotgun shells. I only personally know about 45lc/.410 handguns though.
Very impressive George. Lots of potential for personal defense that I would not have considered if you hadn’t done the research. Thanks for the enlightenment. Looking forward to Fridays. Continue to hold you in prayer as you journey through the grieving process. 🙏
YES I'M GLAD TO SEE YOU BACK. AND I'VE MISSED YOU. HOPE ALL IS WELL WITH YOUR FAMILY. LOOKING FORWARD TO SEEING MORE VIDEOS. I AM A LEVER GUN LOVER AS FAR AS LONG GUNS. REVOLVERS FOR HANDGUNS. NEVER CARED MUCH FOR THE BOLT ACTION.
There was an exhaustive ballistic test conducted years ago by, I believe, LEAA that ran different handgun projectile at velocities from 600 fps to over 2,000 fps. One thing really stood out to me was that all JHP’s tested exhibited similar increasing performance until they reached ~1400 fps when they began to break up due the hydraulic effect. And even more interesting was that JSP test projectiles began to expand at ~ 1400 fps and expanded in a Very Linear fashion as velocity was increased to over 2,000 fps.
Thanks for the suggestion. Definitely a lot of work and be done with the ballistic gel and a chronograph. At least a chronograph that works all the time😉
I'm glad your back I hope your sister is doing well I never comment to anyone on UA-cam but you put family above all and you have all my respect . I will always look for your content cause sometimes I don't get notification. God bless you and your family
Thanks Andy. I really appreciate your kind words. Unfortunately my sister passed in late February. I sure miss her but things were turning South for her really quick. If she had hung on it would have been a very rough ride.
The problem with high 2000+ fps velocities is high pressure loads that will rupture eardrums inside a house. For that reason, I load my 357 Mag revolvers with 38 Special for in home use, and am very fond of the standard pressure Buffalo Bore 38 Special 158 Gr LSWC-HP's at about 980 fps from a 4" revolver. Also for the same reason, I prefer the 9mm PCC over an AR15 for in house use. I've tested a 45 Colt Rossi 92 20" carbine using a hand loaded Keith-type 235 gr lead HP cast in 20-1 lead-tin alloy, moving at 1200 fps and it appears even MORE destructive on a line of water jugs, than a 62 gr JSP gr 5.56 X 45 from a 16" barrel AR15 at 2900 fps, at far less pressure too! Based on the observed water jug impact tests, I have more confidence in the 45 Colt 235 gr Keith SWC-HP from a rifle to achieve an instant "stop and drop", than I do the 62 gr JSP 5.56 X 45.
Thanks for your comment. I appreciate you taking the time. The only thing I would add is that hearing loss is the last thing I'm concerned about in the event of a home invasion. I want my rounds to be as effective as they can be, with considerations for the "environment", but regardless of the noise level. But how we deal with personal defense in the home is a very personal decision. And I would be the first one to say one size does not fit all!
I too load my 357 revolvers with buffalo bore, but 125 grain +P with barnes bullet. Ever fire a 357 full house load indoors without hearing protection? I accidentally touched off one round (forgot ears) at an indoor range. Could not hear for about a day and ears rang ever since!. Staying at 38 +P pressures is significantly quiter. I am wondering if this would not also be great ammo for my 357 carbine. I have no chrono data, but per buffalo bore from a 4 inch barrel these 38+P are clicking along at 1257 fps; one can only guess that would be more like 1657 from the carbine. I'm beginning to thing 38 +P may be the best for 357 carbine self defense,, sufficient, much quiter. 357 hollow points from a carrbine are likely to be 2000 fps or faster, with the bullets shattering into many pieces and lack of pentreations. Comments apreciated
What I don’t get is, if 38 special is considered generally acceptable for self defense in a snubby, why wouldn’t they be considered more than adequate for self defense coming out of a 16 inch barrel? And with no recoil to boot. Same for 357 magnum? Hell, I would venture a guess that 45 colt cowboy loads would be plenty for self defense coming out of a 16” barrel. Do they need to expand? It’s already 45 caliber. Any expansion after that is just a bonus. I would presume that any better performance out of these rounds is only necessary for hunting applications.
Of course we trust you, George. Wow... Never would have imagined 2600+ FPS out of the 45 Colt! And with great results in the gel. That’s fun stuff. Good engineering on the foam too. I wrongly expected it would magnify the bounce. Well done, as always.
I would love to have one of those Ohler chronographs, or any traditionally designed one for times like this. The one thing the labradar does "better" is provide real down range velocity. I guess that's what I keep it around.
Great video George! I have several lever guns including a 357 Mag Winchester 73. This rifle and my 30-30 Marlin are my go to self defence rifles. All the best!
Hi George so good to have you back. I like my 357 mag in pistol and in my rifle because of the over penetration. Got to be short family and I have evacuated our home because of wildlife here in East Tennessee. Hope we don't lose another home due to wildlife!
NIcely done, that foam under the gel blocks sure seemed to do the trick. We gotta spread the word to other guntubers. Assuming of course they don't enjoy the slo-mo of a gel block spazzing up into the air. Sometimes that is pretty fun to watch.
Yes the flying gel blocks make for great content. Especially when they're launched by large-diameter High Velocity rounds, like you see on Leverguns 50 channel. But from a creators perspective dirty gel blocks are the pits
Results are what I expected. I’ve tested 6.5 Creedmoor vs 308, with 6.5 at slightly lower velocity with greater penetration. The smaller diameter seems to go deeper, which is what your 44 did, even though it was a little slower. Thanks for all the work it was neat to see.
Good video! I love my Rossi 22 and 357 lever action if i happen to be outside with either one and have a threat believe i could put them down but i always carry my 9mm Walther in my home you come through my locked door the mossburg 500 will put you off the porch. Love my palmetto ar15 556 223 also and it is very accurate. Hope n pray that we never have to be in that situation. Thanks for sharing be safe have fun enjoy
Another masterpiece George, much appreciated 👍 After watching I pondered a while considering the impact of these projectiles. It’s easy for me sitting in the U.K. to make assumptions, given our stout gun laws😂👍 however here is my 2c worth. I think you should have shown a control shot of a “standard 44, 357, 45lc” cartridge to show the difference. My house, at its longest is less than 40’ with the largest room being 16’ long. I doubt it would make any significant difference what the fps was leaving the barrel of my Marlin 44mag when it hit the intruder, I would think any flat nose bullet would give them a bad hair day. Being an older property over penetration would not be an issue as most internal walls are solid brick. Of course all that would depend if I had the time to get the keys to the gun cabinet, open it, retrieve said 44, open ammunition safe, collect said rounds, chamber and fire🤣😂🤣 Thanks again George, looking forward to the next one. Regards from deepest Dorset England 🇬🇧🇺🇸👍
Thanks for your comment! You make some good points. And I'm with you, I suspect that any big blunt bullet out of your 1894 carbine is going to have a deep "psychological" impact on an unwanted guest😄
My only lever rifle is a Winchester 1894 chambered in 30-30. I would never consider using it for home defense for the mere reason that I have never shot it without a malfunction. By the third or fourth round in jams like Van Halen, requiring disassembly to clear. It tries to feed more than one round at a time. Probably a cheap fix, but it's one of my least fired weapons, as it's more of an heirloom, passed down from my grandfather. As a union stagehand and professional AV guy, allow me to commend you on your excellent production value! I wince every time I see some newb post the low quality, vertically shot videos that proliferate UA-cam. Great work!
I like the way your metal targets are staked to the ground & don't sit there and swing back and forth with each hit. Our range had massive axles from which the targets, or swingers as we called them, were hung. You could hit them with a cannon and they would swing back then come forward and hit a stop on the axle above. They just froze. Super clever. They were dead still in less than 2 seconds of being shot. Sometimes only a second! Nothing worse than targets that don't have a quick reset. Discs hanging from chains or welded to old truck springs are the worst.
You are right. And I have cut my teeth on swinging targets home from chains. But never again. I'm converting everything over to these XSteel targets. They are so easy to to set up and take down
I have Ranger Point products on every one of my lever guns. Sights, levers and saddle rings. It's amazing the assortment of add-ons they have for the Marlins and Henrys.
@@TargetSuite I think most of the resistance you've gotten on this video wasn't because your points are not correct. It's because the people who want to use lover guns for self-defense by and large are traditionalists.
If you want rifle cartridge performance in your lever gun, get one in a rifle caliber. If you want pistol cartridge capacity, get one in a pistol caliber and don't sweat the velocity. There was a whole lot of personal defense in the 1870s and 1880s with black powder pistol-like cartridges (the .44-40, etc., were designed for rifles) fired in lever guns. A well placed 200gr. Galena pill at 1100 fps. will prove adequately discouraging. This is not a knock on Lehigh Defense. I own, and admire, their bullets. They may be the most innovative on the market.
I kind of figured this video would stir up The Hornet's Nest. But I appreciate that all the comments have been reasonable and thoughtful, including yours😉.
On the other hand if I can get near rifle performance out of my handgun caliber guns that I already own with some specialty ammo well I call that a win.
@@steveinthewest I didn't mean for my comment to sound so negative. It was supposed to be more like yours. I suspect most of us try ways to boost performance, especially after someone else does the initial work. The Lucky Gunner video is well worth watching. One of the critical points is that the required 2200 fps is pretty much limited to rifles. Second, it is velocity _at impact_ that counts. 2200 fps at the muzzle is just a start. Thus, my comment that plain cast lead at cast bullet velocities can do the job. Ronald Regan was very nearly killed by a single .22LR at under 1100 fps. That most certainly does not mean cast bullets will equal the Lehigh Performance rounds. The Lehigh bullets are amazing, even under 2200 fps.
@@wdtaut5650 This thread is a perfect example of what I love about my UA-cam viewers. We can all have a discussion, share our knowledge, experience, and even our opinions, but all the while remaining civil and respectful. Thank you all!
lets not forget cap and ball revolvers. Plenty of evidence of them getting one and two shot stops on bad guys. And before someone starts up the tired old "Well they weren't hyped up on drugs back then!" Um...no. You could buy the stuff over the counter. People act like people today are the ones that invented drug use. No folks its been around a very long time. And people used it to enhance their aggression and deaden pain. There is truly nothing new under the sun. .
I really like the 357 Magnum. It's not great for hunting a little bit too on the light side for me. But it sure is fun and fairly inexpensive to shoot.
@@TargetSuite I’d love to try some Buffalo Bore 180 gr hard cast bullets if I was forced to hunt with the rifle in the caliber. I agree that it’s a bit on the light side for deer sized game unless you’re in maybe 40 yards and that’s where my crossbow would be more efficient. A good broadhead makes a powerful hole! But not many deer get scared by the rifle because it doesn’t make noise with a string like a crossbow does.
Please if you do more gel tests, I'd love to see tests at further distance. UA-cam is full of close range clear gel test. Changing the distance and seeing what still works at which distance, what opens up is interesting just like those loads. And yes I get the self defence distant argument. I still want to know where it falls apart. Worked like a charm with the thick foam underneath the block.
You make a good point. And I have done some long-range ballistic gel testing in the past or at least longer range. But the problem is, ballistic gel is expensive and it's hard to place multiple shots uniformly spread out across that 6-inch surface. To work around that I have also loaded bullets to slower velocities, mimicking speeds at longer ranges and yet still shot them at close range where I could control the impact. I have a couple of videos like that on the channel already. I just don't know which ones they are.
I've also heard the 44 magnum from a levergun kills out of all proportion to what it should do, its almost 30-30 levels of energy within 100 yards but with much larger frontal area.
Yes the 44 mag is a great short-range cartridge. Where it falls short against the 30-30 is in that 75-150 yd range where the 44 mag drops so much velocity.
The biggest problem that I have found with my lever gun is that the action is gravity based. I didn’t realize that when I bought it. If you cycle it and you’re not holding it right side up horizontally, there is a good chance it won’t feed.
First time ever seeing your video. First off, I very much appreciate the info provided in this topic. I am an advocate of increasing performance of pistol calibers rather than limiting the potential of a rifle cartridge for defense guns(carbines,one pistols, etc.) Though this pertained to lever actions, the ballistic info was still useful. But I was VERY impressed by how well the foam at the bottom of your gel blocks worked. I am surprised that more people have not tried that. Thank you for content!
Thanks James. I probably need to do some more work developing the idea but initial results were very promising and kept my brand new gel out of the mud.
The real question is: Can you find any of that boutique ammo in your local gunshop? Like some of the other comments, I am not overly concerned with the performance of my.357 Magnum out of my Marlin 1894. First it’s not my primary choice in a defensive situation. Second, if I had to use it, .357 magnum is proven. Third, a .357 magnum from a carbine will work on deer, hogs, and probably smaller black bear; it’s going to work on a 2 legged ne’er do well. And finally, you have 10 in the tube and a quick handling lever action carbine. Great video as always.
Great info but the issue for me is my desire for the lever gun to be used with same ammo as the revolver. I dont want to have to keep track of various bullets etc.
Driving different bullets weights and compositions at different speeds is always interesting. I would like to hear your thoughts on the pressures involved. ie harder on the firearm? recoil manageablity ? Also really important how accurate are these loads at longer ranges . What kind of downrange velocity retention at say 50,75,100,125,150 yard and bullet drop compared to more traditional loads. If it is flatter shooting and stabil that would be a bonus. Thank you for your efforts on this video it was interesting.
Hi Steve. I will do some more work with the two magnum rounds and report of their "hunting-ability" Part of that will be to use the Labradar to measure those extended velocities. Stay tuned.
Hello George Nice to see you back on the range again (pun intended 😉) as a home defense round surely a 300 grain soft lead wadcutter doing 1600 fps. Would ruin any S.O.B's day and not over penetrate?? And be mild recoiling. Regards Dave.
Great review… Its not how fast a bullet is going, but how it reacts and performs at certain speeds… Momentum and sectional density has a huge factor on a bullets performance I look at any pistol caliber carbine not as a replacement of a rifle … but as a enhancement with performance and accuracy over a handgun I found with a 16 inch barreled 357mag levergun that Remington 158gr jsp to perform well on deer So thats what I had mine loaded with for Castle defense… also 158gr XTPs work well on deer.. Just sharing my personal experience with hunting with the 357mag carbine over the years
Johann Boden is a solid dude and he speaks the truth. The important thing to remember here is what 2200 fps means and it does not mean that a round at less than 2200 fps won't be effective....2200 fps has to do with the elasticity of human tissue and the potential of wound characteristics to go beyond simply "crush" (relying only on shot placement and penetration) and allows the "stretch" cavity to add to the wounding capability.
The rossi r92 in 454 casull with a 20" barrel fires a 240gr hornady xtp at 2250(+/-) but i don't think firing that thing in doors would be so good for your hearing
Best of all...good to see your videos again!👍 I am not a big advocate of rifles for self defense, with certain exceptions. If I lived in the wide open spaces OR if I were confronted with multiple assailants, then a rifle with a lot of rounds on board would be my choice. (were I confronted with an angry mob on my driveway as Mark McCloskey was in St. Louis, I would also choose an AR-15) For general home defense, at suburban home ranges, I choose a shotgun, and keep a handgun on me while I go get the shotgun. That said, a lever rifle in virtually any chambering (particularly in proven handgun cartridges) just as fine as defense rifles as any other. In fact, most lever guns offer a few advantages, such as being able to "top off" the magazine at any time without taking the gun out of service, or even off your shoulder. Certainly any handgun cartridge fired in a longer barreled rifle will give as good, or better, performance than the same cartridge in a handgun.
Thanks. It's good to be making videos again. I sure have missed it. The lever gun certainly isn't a great first choice. But if a person were to make that his primary personal defense weapon, I just wanted to make him aware of the limitations and the possible option. Personally I think you can't beat a shotgun.
Just watching the jell the 45 seemed to have the most violent reaction . But they all did a nice job . I haven't been online much my self . On 1/7/22 Crystal and I were in a bad wreck in Lufkin coming back from Houston . She is still in rehab in Diboll relearning to walk . She was in coma for a little over 3 weeks and in ICU in Lufkin for just over 2 months . But she is doing real good now she should be coming home by the middle of April . Sorry I have missed some of your videos but I was with her everyday up until she got into rehab , now I go every other day . Gas has been killing me at almost $4 a gallon . But think God she will recover fully with a little time . You have a blessed one my friend and hopefully things will get back to normal for us both soon .
Thanks for the video, George. I thought using the foam support for the gell blocks a clever solution. Seeing those blocks react to the bullet strikes brought to my mind how desperately l DON'T want to have to defend myself with lethal force! Nevertheless, pray for the best but have a plan if things go wrong.---TPf
Great idea to use foam to minimize jumping of the block. What were the penetration depths? One point that needs to be highlighted is why velocity is so important. Sub 2,200 fps and you get a temporary wound channel where "stuff" inside just stretches. Inconvenient but not necessarily a threat stopper, at least right away. Up to a point, things remain elastic and will survive and continue to function through the unexpected intrusion. Over 2,200 fps, "stuff" begins to shred and explode due to a number of factors, hydraulic forces being one of them. Threats tend to stop sooner when internal systems blow up and are shredded. As to Jerry's comment about the .45-70, penetration and breaking bones were viewed as most important back in the 1800's when killing bison and eliminating a resource base of the Native American were key. Materials sciences, ballistics and FBI studies of shootings were not a thing back then. Things have changed over the past 150 years, except for one thing. Speed kills.
There's always holes left in my story. I need to make better notes . . . and condense my messages so the important stuff isn't lost in the "noise" of me yacking. The 44 mag penetrated 31 inches and the 45 Colt 27 inches. I will text you a picture of the moment of maximum expansion with the 45 Colt bullet.
Im using a lever action 22 lr . Using high pressure stingers at 1650 fps. Hollow points from cci . They will do alot of damage. My lever is set for 10 yards with iron sights. Or else i have some cci semi auto quiet 35 grains 835 fps hollow tips for gophers. I use the stingers for annoying crows and magpies because they are pests around here, also gophers get the quiet semi auto bullets.
CCI stingers on a water filled coke can is impressive, it’s all about shot placement not caliber size , combine that with the stinger and something is going to have a bad day
That's a good idea. I can tell you it's substantial. At least at Short ranges. The problem with these really lightweight bullets is that velocity drops off precipitously down range.
I suppose that those style bullets aren't available for the red-headed step child of the magnum family. On lever guns in general for self defense I would worry that many shooters wouldn't practice enough with rapid operation of the lever and might short stroke it under stress.
Good learning video. Never even thought when I saw the hollow base xd rounds how much that could effect the velocity readings. Not sure about the petal separation on the 357 but boy the 44 & 45 rounds should work great for hunting. Happy to see you back. 👍 🙏
I love my lever guns, I have Marlins in 357 and 44 but sold my 45 several years ago regretfully, have other levers but in rimfire and bottleneck cartridges
I suspect this video, is more about the personal defense one would be using an AR-15 for, rather than the up close kind that you would normally associate a handgun with. Maybe I’m wrong? I have an AR ready to go as a bug out for combat type situations and what have you. I can see a lever gun loaded up like this to fill a similar role. Tho it wouldn’t be my first choice, it may be for many. In the house I think I will stick with a pump shot gun. After 40 some odd years of hunting with an 870, it has become an extension of my body and I can operate it without any thinking involved. It will create a very bad hair day for any bad intentioned intruder in the confines of my house, no matter the load used.
Hi Mike. If I were to use a levergun for personal defense, it would be, like you said, in a scenario similar to what an AR is set up for. But for me, inside the house work is relegated to a shotgun loaded with #6s. Speaking of up close work, I watched a video a few days ago from a security camera. In the video, a woman was accosted but managed to pull her pistol and get one shot off point blank, maybe even a contact shot into the belly of her attacker. The man immediately fell to the ground and held up his had as if to say, don't shoot me again. He held that position for two or three seconds before succumbing. If he had been determined and armed, he could have easily pumped 5 rounds into that woman before the grim reaper came. So, the threat was not really stopped by her handgun. The perp just wasn't armed. My only point is, and was, to point out the weakness of handguns with their limited velocities at really stopping (immediatly) a threat. Thanks as always for watching, and for your comments!
I think we totally agree. Handguns do not drop people like we see on TV. They tend to crawl around a bit and even run quite a way at times before they give up the ghost or shoot back! The shock of high velocity rounds has the ability to anchor the target and hit the off switch instantly. As will an up close shotgun blast, do to the massive amount of damage it can inflict. I’ve poked holes in coyotes with lower velocity rounds and they go on a run till they drain out. But when you hit one with a 22-250 and ballistic tip bullet, the energy dump and massive internal damage shuts them off like lightning. Speed kills fast, and that is the point you were trying to get across. Sure kicked the hornet nest with this video tho! Most people just missed the point. Keep up the good work! I’m still just amazed at a 2600 fps 45 Colt! Let us know what the pigs think of it!
The science, engineering, & math is interesting. For more real world results showing how the .357 Magnum and .44 Magnum perform in carbine lever guns I strongly suggest people watch Paul Harrell's video on the subject, & his vid regarding them in handguns. In brief, both peak out of barrel lengths from 16" to 18." Your normal defense ammo for handguns in either caliber will perform more than adequately out of a lever gun carbine. There is no "need" for specific high speed bullets for self defense.
""HERES"" - the PROBLEM with all this SPEED jargon/bullshit, if a bullet has to travel over 2,200fps to be optimum preforming,,,,then WHY in HELL is the OLD
.45-70 GOV - so damn effective at 1,800fps,,,, & what's the point of INCREASING the SPEED with light for caliber PROJECTILES for SELF DEFENSE ranges which is typically 7 - 15 yards if you get SO MUCH ""OVER"" penetration, like the 3 projectiles in this video, the WHOLE POINT to self defense loads is to strike there INTENDED target DUMP all/most of there ENERGY and cause massive wound damage in there target not waste it like these 3 did by OVER PENETRATING, all of these bullets leave you EXTREMELY liable to striking an innocent person.....nah I'll stay with good reliable personal defense loads, which most gain 75 - 150 fps when fired from a 16" barrel compared to a 6" barrel...
And if you DO want a lever gun that is going to produce velocity greater than 2,200 in a pistol caliber then just get a
Big Horn Armory, chambered in .460S&W mag.......
Furthermore, here is the proof that I offer,,,if a
.44mag is efficient enough to take a 800/1000 pound bull ELK @ 150 yards from a 8-3/8" barrel (Elmer Keith creator of the
.44mag) one shot kill - then I believe NO I'm positive that a .44mag from a 16" barrel gaining a 100fps is more than adequate for 2 legged animals at 7 - 15 self defense yards.....
I appreciate your comment. What was a little too buried in the video was the concept of stopping power. Sure, the fantastic .357 Magnum, as well as the 44 Mag and 45 Colt area very effective cartridges and they render lifelessness very efficiently, but I hoped to point out the difference between rendering something lifeless and stopping a threat. Studies from the FBI labs and others have proven that velocities below 2200 fps can leave a short delay between bullet impact and the cessation of a threat (being stopped). And in a firefight, that few second delay can be disastrous. What I showed in the video was that true "stopping power" can be had with pistol caliber leverguns, but I also concluded the video with the warning that these loads, especially the two magnums come at a cost. And that is over penetration. Thanks for watching!
85% of people survive being shot with a handgun... 66% survive being shot by a rifle (with disability being many times higher)... and only 1% survive being shot with a shotgun. Rifle bullets are significantly more effective than handguns due to their velocity. (though shotguns are king and they don't even come close to 2200fps). The speed of a rifle bullet will cause an area of damage (to organs and surrounding tissue) while a handgun bullet only pokes holes (small holes). Also, the holes poked by handgun bullets don't get much bigger when you use larger calibers. A 10mm bullet hole is about the same as a 9mm/.380/.357 if not mistaken.
Oy vey. Manichean much?
One point that needs to be highlighted is why velocity is so important. Sub 2,200 fps and you get a temporary wound channel where "stuff" inside just stretches. Inconvenient but not necessarily a threat stopper, at least right away. Up to a point, things remain elastic and will survive and continue to function through the unexpected intrusion.
Over 2,200 fps, "stuff" begins to shred and explode due to a number of factors, hydraulic forces being one of them. Threats tend to stop sooner when internal systems blow up and are shredded.
None of this matters if accurate shot placement isn't attained.
As to your comment about the .45-70, penetration and breaking bones were viewed as most important back in the 1800's when killing bison and eliminating a resource base of the Native American were key. Materials sciences, ballistics and FBI studies of shootings were not a thing back then. Things have changed over the past 150 years, except for one thing. Speed kills.
One last thing, look up those links.
@@InGratitudeIam links?
Welcome back, George! Excellent video!
Thanks Pat. It's good to be making vids again.
Good to see you back George. Hope life is settling down for you and you are getting all of your family matters sorted out. I need to commend you on the high production value of your videos. While you were gone I had to suffer through some others and I mean SUFFER. Your photography is excellent as is your presentation. Thanks for the well presented information.
Thank you Frank. I really appreciate that comment. Things are settling down and I am glad to be back in the field.
Back in the day when the army got the 45 Colt revolver. It's been written that a 250 gr cast bullet running approximately 900 fps would shoot side to side thru a horse. I shoot 260 gr cast in my 45 Colt Vaqueros and my 45 Colt Rossi 92. Haven't chronoed the Vaqueros but the Rossi is averaging 1350 fps. I really don't think we need all that speed. Those big slugs will handle anything I need them to.
I don't doubt that a bit about shooting through a horse. I think that's what the cartridge was designed for in the first place. Does that ring a bell?
Thats a fact! There aint much doing that cant be done with 250g of lead @ 1000 fps....
Agreed. It’s interesting to see these experiments though. I’m happy with a good 255 gr lead bullet just chugging along.
@@thealsatian4232 Me to those big old slugs do not to move fast. They make big holes and drive deep into whatever they hit.
@@TargetSuite Truthfully if I lived in the city, especially in a apartment complex, I wouldn't use my 45's as one might go thru a bad guy then the wall and hit my neighbor. Shotgun with bird shot would be my choice. Out here in the country if I had to handle a bad guy, besides cleaning up the mess I might have to patch a hole in the wall. No neighbors to worry about.
This is great content in all aspects of the word. Your editing is great, the music, calm voice, super educational information, and the list goes on and on. 10/10 keep up the great work.
I've harvested some big mule deer with a 6” 44 mag back in a day. Only one need a follow-up. Mule deer are usually much tougher then an average human.
Welcome back George, enjoy your videos! I’m a lever gun junky too but, this looks like a solution looking for a problem to me. Typically a pistol caliber carbine in a home defense situation especially a 357 mag 125 grain jhp will dump all of its energy in a thoracic cavity with little over penetration. If you live in a rural environment and are looking for hydrostatic shock in a lever gun use a 30-30 with 125 or 150 grain bullets, just make sure no one is in a room behind the intended target. Take care and “ lever on “!
Thanks for watching, and I appreciate you tolerating my technical diversions😉
All three revolver rounds are proven effective rounds in handguns at handgun velocities. I really am skeptical of the need for 2200 fps. Sure it might be somewhat better but necessary i do not think so. The 357 has a track record as a personal defense cartridge in revolvers for a long time at velocities much lower.
I have never felt defenseless with a 357 even in 2 1/2 inch revolvers so in my Rossi 16 inch I am most confident in its effectiveness. I have used a 357 revolver on two bears neither gave any problem after a few applications of 158 grain JSP.
I understand John. And that is certainly conventional wisdom. But the historical facts (FBI data, the NRA study and medical journals) show that even the venerable .357 mag often won't immediately stop a determined or drug fueled threat, whereas a reasonably placed rifle shot will.
@@TargetSuite Absolutely! I agree wholeheartedly. I'd rather have too much than not enough when needed.
@@TargetSuite Maybe so but if in that sort of situation better grab a 12 gauge stuffed with buckshot.
Frankly I doubt anything the FBI says these days and if all that is true why are they shooting 9mm ??????
@@johngallagher2313 I really appreciate your comments and you've asked the $64k question related to the FBI's choice of 9mm. And the answer can be found in the links that I have put in the description. Those articles all come to the same general conclusion and that is for the most part all handgun cartridges are just about equal when it comes to lethality if the proper bullet is used but also, all but the super Magnum handgun cartridges fail equally when it comes to true stopping power. So I believe the conclusion that the FBI came to was just pick a cartridge that everyone can shoot well because that matters a whole lot more than whether or not it's a hot 10mm, a 45, a 40, a 9 mm or a 380. And with all that said I was not recommending a pistol caliber lever gun for personal defense, only addressing the current craze about using one as a tactical weapon. And then of course the hypervelocity loads that I presented did indeed take the pistol caliber lever gun into the realm of a rifle when it comes to close-range effectiveness at immediately stopping a threat.
And I guess the limitation of UA-cam videos is that if I were to have included all of that in detail in the video it would have been 30 minutes long and no one would have watched it😄
Never mind how many people have been dropped over the decades with the 158gn LRN slug of the .38 Spl at an embarrassing 755fps(nobody told those people that they weren't supposed to die due to inadequate energy/velocity).
Great video. For personal defense I always think of that happening in the home where having too much power is a bad thing. In that sense the pistol caliber carbine is the perfect weapon choice since those defense pistol rounds will be somewhat more effective (depends on the round) out of the carbine without over penetrating. Using that criteria the 357 round was the clear winner. For hunting, those other rounds would be awesome.
Yep. It's always a fine line we have to walk when it comes to effectiveness versus over effectiveness
It's really great to have you back! And we'll take your wisdom and great shooting and testing and analysis ANYTIME it works for you. Thanks for your hard work and always excellent content!
Thank you ma'am! It's always good to hear from you!
Btw @Target Suite I ran across your channel a few days ago and I wish I would have found it years ago. Love the format, informative and also entertaining which is a hard balance to create for any creator. Great job, keep it up please.
Glad to see you back. This was pretty impressive .45 Colt results.
I thought so too. There are some well-respected rifle cartridges out there that don't do much better than 2500 feet per second with 135 grain bullet.
Just came across your channel. You put in a lot of work for these tests, and answered an interesting question. Thanks for adding value in this hard to break into market. You just got a new subscriber.
Not particularly worried about one-shot-stops with 10 rounds of factory 45LC in the tube. With practice, multiple rounds on target with low recoil (compared to your examples) pistol loads in my carbine is very doable. If this is your only option, practice, practice, practice. If I want 2000fps out of a levergun, I reach for the 30-30. As usual, great content! Welcome back, George.
Great comment! Certainly not ideal for a populated house or suburban neighborhood!
The only problem with needing more than one shot to stop a threat is that it gives the threat the opportunity to shoot back.
@@TargetSuite I find it crazy that handgun rounds overpenetrate much worse than rifle bullets (regardless of velocity). Makes sense when you do the research... but unexpected.
What is a 45LC ? I've never seen one of those.
@@64samsky A powerful handgun round. Sometimes handguns (and probably a few rifles) are chambered to shoot 45lc and .410 shotgun shells. I only personally know about 45lc/.410 handguns though.
Very impressive George. Lots of potential for personal defense that I would not have considered if you hadn’t done the research. Thanks for the enlightenment. Looking forward to Fridays. Continue to hold you in prayer as you journey through the grieving process. 🙏
Thank you. Btw, message me again. I can't find the thread with our back and forth.
YES I'M GLAD TO SEE YOU BACK. AND I'VE MISSED YOU. HOPE ALL IS WELL WITH YOUR FAMILY. LOOKING FORWARD TO SEEING MORE VIDEOS. I AM A LEVER GUN LOVER AS FAR AS LONG GUNS. REVOLVERS FOR HANDGUNS. NEVER CARED MUCH FOR THE BOLT ACTION.
Thanks. I appreciate that. And thanks for watching!
Glad you're back, we miss you on UA-cam. As a lever gun fan it's always good to see some videos. Be blessed brother take care
Thanks. I really appreciate that comment!
There was an exhaustive ballistic test conducted years ago by, I believe, LEAA that ran different handgun projectile at velocities from 600 fps to over 2,000 fps. One thing really stood out to me was that all JHP’s tested exhibited similar increasing performance until they reached ~1400 fps when they began to break up due the hydraulic effect. And even more interesting was that JSP test projectiles began to expand at ~ 1400 fps and expanded in a Very Linear fashion as velocity was increased to over 2,000 fps.
I have not read that report. Interesting! Thanks!
Interesting results. Good idea with the foam below the blocks.
It was interesting! I had no idea velocities would be quite that high.
Hello from Sweden 🇸🇪
Great to see you and that you are back in action.
Stay safe👍
It's good to be back. And it's good to hear from you as well!
I would have no problem hunting deer with all three of those. You have brought the 45 Colt in to the 21 century. WoW!!
That really is next level performance for that old cartridge!
I’d like to see a repeat using standard weight factory loaded hollow points. Any of these would ruin a bad guy’s day.
Thanks for the suggestion. Definitely a lot of work and be done with the ballistic gel and a chronograph. At least a chronograph that works all the time😉
I'm glad your back I hope your sister is doing well I never comment to anyone on UA-cam but you put family above all and you have all my respect . I will always look for your content cause sometimes I don't get notification. God bless you and your family
Thanks Andy. I really appreciate your kind words. Unfortunately my sister passed in late February. I sure miss her but things were turning South for her really quick. If she had hung on it would have been a very rough ride.
Ingenious idea of putting the gel block on the foam. Those cartridges really tear up the jello!
Thanks! I appreciate your comment!
Nice work on that gel setup!
We got our Shooting/Engineer back!
😄😄 thanks!
Excellent vid George! Helps me out. I reload and have a Henry .44 Magnum 20" Big Boy. It's my favorite rifle!
Blessings!
Great to see you back at it.
It's good to be working again!
The problem with high 2000+ fps velocities is high pressure loads that will rupture eardrums inside a house. For that reason, I load my 357 Mag revolvers with 38 Special for in home use, and am very fond of the standard pressure Buffalo Bore 38 Special 158 Gr LSWC-HP's at about 980 fps from a 4" revolver. Also for the same reason, I prefer the 9mm PCC over an AR15 for in house use. I've tested a 45 Colt Rossi 92 20" carbine using a hand loaded Keith-type 235 gr lead HP cast in 20-1 lead-tin alloy, moving at 1200 fps and it appears even MORE destructive on a line of water jugs, than a 62 gr JSP gr 5.56 X 45 from a 16" barrel AR15 at 2900 fps, at far less pressure too! Based on the observed water jug impact tests, I have more confidence in the 45 Colt 235 gr Keith SWC-HP from a rifle to achieve an instant "stop and drop", than I do the 62 gr JSP 5.56 X 45.
Thanks for your comment. I appreciate you taking the time. The only thing I would add is that hearing loss is the last thing I'm concerned about in the event of a home invasion. I want my rounds to be as effective as they can be, with considerations for the "environment", but regardless of the noise level. But how we deal with personal defense in the home is a very personal decision. And I would be the first one to say one size does not fit all!
I too load my 357 revolvers with buffalo bore, but 125 grain +P with barnes bullet. Ever fire a 357 full house load indoors without hearing protection? I accidentally touched off one round (forgot ears) at an indoor range. Could not hear for about a day and ears rang ever since!. Staying at 38 +P pressures is significantly quiter. I am wondering if this would not also be great ammo for my 357 carbine. I have no chrono data, but per buffalo bore from a 4 inch barrel these 38+P are clicking along at 1257 fps; one can only guess that would be more like 1657 from the carbine. I'm beginning to thing 38 +P may be the best for 357 carbine self defense,, sufficient, much quiter. 357 hollow points from a carrbine are likely to be 2000 fps or faster, with the bullets shattering into many pieces and lack of pentreations. Comments apreciated
What I don’t get is, if 38 special is considered generally acceptable for self defense in a snubby, why wouldn’t they be considered more than adequate for self defense coming out of a 16 inch barrel? And with no recoil to boot. Same for 357 magnum? Hell, I would venture a guess that 45 colt cowboy loads would be plenty for self defense coming out of a 16” barrel. Do they need to expand? It’s already 45 caliber. Any expansion after that is just a bonus. I would presume that any better performance out of these rounds is only necessary for hunting applications.
Of course we trust you, George. Wow... Never would have imagined 2600+ FPS out of the 45 Colt! And with great results in the gel. That’s fun stuff. Good engineering on the foam too. I wrongly expected it would magnify the bounce. Well done, as always.
Thanks! I really appreciate all of your comments!
Oehler 35P chronographs are still available. I've been using one for well over 30 years.
I would love to have one of those Ohler chronographs, or any traditionally designed one for times like this. The one thing the labradar does "better" is provide real down range velocity. I guess that's what I keep it around.
I like the way you showed the ballistic gel results. Keep it up!
Thanks Paul!
Great video George! I have several lever guns including a 357 Mag Winchester 73. This rifle and my 30-30 Marlin are my go to self defence rifles. All the best!
Great rifles! Thanks for the comment.
Hi George so good to have you back. I like my 357 mag in pistol and in my rifle because of the over penetration. Got to be short family and I have evacuated our home because of wildlife here in East Tennessee. Hope we don't lose another home due to wildlife!
I'm assuming you meant wildfire? God bless you and your family! Message me at targetsuite@gmail.com.
@@TargetSuite yes I meant wildfire. Spell check I reckon
Good to have you back George.
Thanks. I appreciate your comment and I appreciate you watching the vid
NIcely done, that foam under the gel blocks sure seemed to do the trick. We gotta spread the word to other guntubers. Assuming of course they don't enjoy the slo-mo of a gel block spazzing up into the air. Sometimes that is pretty fun to watch.
Yes the flying gel blocks make for great content. Especially when they're launched by large-diameter High Velocity rounds, like you see on Leverguns 50 channel. But from a creators perspective dirty gel blocks are the pits
Got a R92 454 Casull Rossi. Wonder what a 205gr Lehigh XD would do in that rifle. Per magazine tests, a Buffalo Bore 300gr runs 2000 fps.
A hot 454 round with a 205gr Lehigh XD would punish on both ends! No Doubt!
I really love your presentation of the block with all of the labels, wish others would do the same.
Thanks. I thought that was a good way to summarize the day without a lot of talking.
Results are what I expected. I’ve tested 6.5 Creedmoor vs 308, with 6.5 at slightly lower velocity with greater penetration. The smaller diameter seems to go deeper, which is what your 44 did, even though it was a little slower. Thanks for all the work it was neat to see.
Glad to see a new video from ya George, and a good one at that. You made me smile.
Thanks it's good to be back making vids. Thanks for watching!
Good video! I love my Rossi 22 and 357 lever action if i happen to be outside with either one and have a threat believe i could put them down but i always carry my 9mm Walther in my home you come through my locked door the mossburg 500 will put you off the porch. Love my palmetto ar15 556 223 also and it is very accurate. Hope n pray that we never have to be in that situation. Thanks for sharing be safe have fun enjoy
Another masterpiece George, much appreciated 👍 After watching I pondered a while considering the impact of these projectiles. It’s easy for me sitting in the U.K. to make assumptions, given our stout gun laws😂👍 however here is my 2c worth. I think you should have shown a control shot of a “standard 44, 357, 45lc” cartridge to show the difference. My house, at its longest is less than 40’ with the largest room being 16’ long. I doubt it would make any significant difference what the fps was leaving the barrel of my Marlin 44mag when it hit the intruder, I would think any flat nose bullet would give them a bad hair day. Being an older property over penetration would not be an issue as most internal walls are solid brick. Of course all that would depend if I had the time to get the keys to the gun cabinet, open it, retrieve said 44, open ammunition safe, collect said rounds, chamber and fire🤣😂🤣 Thanks again George, looking forward to the next one. Regards from deepest Dorset England 🇬🇧🇺🇸👍
Thanks for your comment! You make some good points. And I'm with you, I suspect that any big blunt bullet out of your 1894 carbine is going to have a deep "psychological" impact on an unwanted guest😄
My only lever rifle is a Winchester 1894 chambered in 30-30. I would never consider using it for home defense for the mere reason that I have never shot it without a malfunction. By the third or fourth round in jams like Van Halen, requiring disassembly to clear. It tries to feed more than one round at a time. Probably a cheap fix, but it's one of my least fired weapons, as it's more of an heirloom, passed down from my grandfather. As a union stagehand and professional AV guy, allow me to commend you on your excellent production value! I wince every time I see some newb post the low quality, vertically shot videos that proliferate UA-cam. Great work!
I like the way your metal targets are staked to the ground & don't sit there and swing back and forth with each hit. Our range had massive axles from which the targets, or swingers as we called them, were hung. You could hit them with a cannon and they would swing back then come forward and hit a stop on the axle above. They just froze. Super clever. They were dead still in less than 2 seconds of being shot. Sometimes only a second! Nothing worse than targets that don't have a quick reset. Discs hanging from chains or welded to old truck springs are the worst.
You are right. And I have cut my teeth on swinging targets home from chains. But never again. I'm converting everything over to these XSteel targets. They are so easy to to set up and take down
Good to see you back George!
Thanks!
Glad to see you back. That 45 Colt was moving on.
It really was. And it surprised me
I have Ranger Point products on every one of my lever guns. Sights, levers and saddle rings. It's amazing the assortment of add-ons they have for the Marlins and Henrys.
Amen! They have really found a sweet spot in the market and are making quality stuff.
Good insight with the foam block.
I heard it here first and hope to use it someday.
Thanks. The foam sure saves a lot of trouble
@@TargetSuite I think most of the resistance you've gotten on this video wasn't because your points are not correct. It's because the people who want to use lover guns for self-defense by and large are traditionalists.
If you want rifle cartridge performance in your lever gun, get one in a rifle caliber. If you want pistol cartridge capacity, get one in a pistol caliber and don't sweat the velocity. There was a whole lot of personal defense in the 1870s and 1880s with black powder pistol-like cartridges (the .44-40, etc., were designed for rifles) fired in lever guns. A well placed 200gr. Galena pill at 1100 fps. will prove adequately discouraging.
This is not a knock on Lehigh Defense. I own, and admire, their bullets. They may be the most innovative on the market.
I kind of figured this video would stir up The Hornet's Nest. But I appreciate that all the comments have been reasonable and thoughtful, including yours😉.
On the other hand if I can get near rifle performance out of my handgun caliber guns that I already own with some specialty ammo well I call that a win.
@@steveinthewest I didn't mean for my comment to sound so negative. It was supposed to be more like yours. I suspect most of us try ways to boost performance, especially after someone else does the initial work. The Lucky Gunner video is well worth watching. One of the critical points is that the required 2200 fps is pretty much limited to rifles. Second, it is velocity _at impact_ that counts. 2200 fps at the muzzle is just a start. Thus, my comment that plain cast lead at cast bullet velocities can do the job. Ronald Regan was very nearly killed by a single .22LR at under 1100 fps. That most certainly does not mean cast bullets will equal the Lehigh Performance rounds. The Lehigh bullets are amazing, even under 2200 fps.
@@wdtaut5650 This thread is a perfect example of what I love about my UA-cam viewers. We can all have a discussion, share our knowledge, experience, and even our opinions, but all the while remaining civil and respectful. Thank you all!
lets not forget cap and ball revolvers. Plenty of evidence of them getting one and two shot stops on bad guys.
And before someone starts up the tired old "Well they weren't hyped up on drugs back then!" Um...no. You could buy the stuff over the counter. People act like people today are the ones that invented drug use. No folks its been around a very long time. And people used it to enhance their aggression and deaden pain.
There is truly nothing new under the sun. .
Good to see you back. great video .
Thanks Andy!
I live in a VERY restrictive state and sometimes people talk about leverguns for personal defense. Love your videos!
Thanks!
Great video George! Good to see you back in the saddle. I wonder how 35 Remington would work, lol? I’m wanting a 357 magnum rifle!
I really like the 357 Magnum. It's not great for hunting a little bit too on the light side for me. But it sure is fun and fairly inexpensive to shoot.
@@TargetSuite I’d love to try some Buffalo Bore 180 gr hard cast bullets if I was forced to hunt with the rifle in the caliber. I agree that it’s a bit on the light side for deer sized game unless you’re in maybe 40 yards and that’s where my crossbow would be more efficient. A good broadhead makes a powerful hole! But not many deer get scared by the rifle because it doesn’t make noise with a string like a crossbow does.
Knowing what my 35 remington does to deer.......There is no way I'd want to be a bad guy on the wrong end of it. Can't ask Bonnie and Clyde, I guess.
Good to see you. Thank you for your work on these videos.
Thank you Ken!
Great video! AWESOME gel block footage!
Thanks!
Clint and John never have a problem with a lever action for self defence
Please if you do more gel tests, I'd love to see tests at further distance. UA-cam is full of close range clear gel test. Changing the distance and seeing what still works at which distance, what opens up is interesting just like those loads. And yes I get the self defence distant argument. I still want to know where it falls apart. Worked like a charm with the thick foam underneath the block.
You make a good point. And I have done some long-range ballistic gel testing in the past or at least longer range. But the problem is, ballistic gel is expensive and it's hard to place multiple shots uniformly spread out across that 6-inch surface. To work around that I have also loaded bullets to slower velocities, mimicking speeds at longer ranges and yet still shot them at close range where I could control the impact. I have a couple of videos like that on the channel already. I just don't know which ones they are.
Very cool video! Liked subscribed and a comment for the algorithm!
Welcome back. have missed you.
Thank you. My wife asked me today if I had fun making the video. And I said yes emphatically!
Would love to see how the underwood 160 gr extreme hunter ammo would do through a 16-20” lever gun?
And the big question is, where do get primers now days to reload?
I've also heard the 44 magnum from a levergun kills out of all proportion to what it should do, its almost 30-30 levels of energy within 100 yards but with much larger frontal area.
Yes the 44 mag is a great short-range cartridge. Where it falls short against the 30-30 is in that 75-150 yd range where the 44 mag drops so much velocity.
Ingenious idea to use that foam, thanks for a great video!
This is gonna be really good
Thanks! There's a little tidbit in there just for you. 😉
@@TargetSuite you talking about the foam padding? That was a good idea
That's what I said before it began. When I saw the 45 Colt kick I thought it was going to be good numbers, but not that good.
@@Leverguns50 Yep, the foam. I'm going to play around with that and see if I can get it to work for heavier loads.
Great video! Good to see you back!!
It's good to be back. I've missed making videos!
Awesome video, love the lever guns and actually have a lever action 12 guage that I absolutely love shooting, thanx for posting
I'm guessing you have the Henry 410? I bet that's a sweet gun!
@@TargetSuite I wish , no I bought a black aces tactical lever 12 guage
Very interesting! Now I have something new to play around with. Good to see you back!
Have fun. And thanks for watching
The biggest problem that I have found with my lever gun is that the action is gravity based. I didn’t realize that when I bought it. If you cycle it and you’re not holding it right side up horizontally, there is a good chance it won’t feed.
First time ever seeing your video. First off, I very much appreciate the info provided in this topic. I am an advocate of increasing performance of pistol calibers rather than limiting the potential of a rifle cartridge for defense guns(carbines,one pistols, etc.) Though this pertained to lever actions, the ballistic info was still useful. But I was VERY impressed by how well the foam at the bottom of your gel blocks worked. I am surprised that more people have not tried that. Thank you for content!
Nice work , awesome content ! Glad your back ! Thank you
Thank you. It feels good.
I'm not sure 2,200 fps is needed for home defense but the foam under the ballistic jell was a great idea .
Thanks James. I probably need to do some more work developing the idea but initial results were very promising and kept my brand new gel out of the mud.
The real question is: Can you find any of that boutique ammo in your local gunshop?
Like some of the other comments, I am not overly concerned with the performance of my.357 Magnum out of my Marlin 1894. First it’s not my primary choice in a defensive situation. Second, if I had to use it, .357 magnum is proven. Third, a .357 magnum from a carbine will work on deer, hogs, and probably smaller black bear; it’s going to work on a 2 legged ne’er do well. And finally, you have 10 in the tube and a quick handling lever action carbine.
Great video as always.
Thanks for watching, and thanks for your comment. The Lehigh Defense bullets are easy to find, but not in loaded ammo like this.
Great info but the issue for me is my desire for the lever gun to be used with same ammo as the revolver. I dont want to have to keep track of various bullets etc.
You are right. And with a snubby it is impossible to get Optimum performance out of both guns using the same load.
Driving different bullets weights and compositions at different speeds is always interesting. I would like to hear your thoughts on the pressures involved. ie harder on the firearm? recoil manageablity ? Also really important how accurate are these loads at longer ranges . What kind of downrange velocity retention at say 50,75,100,125,150 yard and bullet drop compared to more traditional loads. If it is flatter shooting and stabil that would be a bonus. Thank you for your efforts on this video it was interesting.
Hi Steve. I will do some more work with the two magnum rounds and report of their "hunting-ability" Part of that will be to use the Labradar to measure those extended velocities. Stay tuned.
Hello George Nice to see you back on the range again (pun intended 😉) as a home defense round surely a 300 grain soft lead wadcutter doing 1600 fps. Would ruin any S.O.B's day and not over penetrate?? And be mild recoiling.
Regards Dave.
Thanks for your comment David, and thanks for watching!
Great Videos as always..Thanks George.
Thank you. And thanks for watching
Great review…
Its not how fast a bullet is going, but how it reacts and performs at certain speeds…
Momentum and sectional density has a huge factor on a bullets performance
I look at any pistol caliber carbine
not as a replacement of a rifle … but as a enhancement with performance and accuracy over a handgun
I found with a 16 inch barreled 357mag levergun that Remington 158gr jsp to perform well on deer
So thats what I had mine loaded with for Castle defense… also 158gr XTPs work well on deer..
Just sharing my personal experience with hunting with the 357mag carbine over the years
With Remington 125gr sjhp I get 2100 fps+ out of my carbine. I make some handloads with H110 and 158gr. Xtp's and get about 1800.
Awesome. Thanks for sharing!
Great video. Good info, thx. GOD BLESS
Would be intetesting to see at what ranges these bullets fall below the 2200fps threshold
Johann Boden is a solid dude and he speaks the truth. The important thing to remember here is what 2200 fps means and it does not mean that a round at less than 2200 fps won't be effective....2200 fps has to do with the elasticity of human tissue and the potential of wound characteristics to go beyond simply "crush" (relying only on shot placement and penetration) and allows the "stretch" cavity to add to the wounding capability.
The rossi r92 in 454 casull with a 20" barrel fires a 240gr hornady xtp at 2250(+/-) but i don't think firing that thing in doors would be so good for your hearing
Ouch!
Best of all...good to see your videos again!👍
I am not a big advocate of rifles for self defense, with certain exceptions. If I lived in the wide open spaces OR if I were confronted with multiple assailants, then a rifle with a lot of rounds on board would be my choice. (were I confronted with an angry mob on my driveway as Mark McCloskey was in St. Louis, I would also choose an AR-15)
For general home defense, at suburban home ranges, I choose a shotgun, and keep a handgun on me while I go get the shotgun.
That said, a lever rifle in virtually any chambering (particularly in proven handgun cartridges) just as fine as defense rifles as any other. In fact, most lever guns offer a few advantages, such as being able to "top off" the magazine at any time without taking the gun out of service, or even off your shoulder.
Certainly any handgun cartridge fired in a longer barreled rifle will give as good, or better, performance than the same cartridge in a handgun.
Thanks. It's good to be making videos again. I sure have missed it. The lever gun certainly isn't a great first choice. But if a person were to make that his primary personal defense weapon, I just wanted to make him aware of the limitations and the possible option. Personally I think you can't beat a shotgun.
@@TargetSuite There would be a lot worse things to have in your hands for self defense than a good lever gun. 😜
Just watching the jell the 45 seemed to have the most violent reaction . But they all did a nice job .
I haven't been online much my self . On 1/7/22 Crystal and I were in a bad wreck in Lufkin coming
back from Houston . She is still in rehab in Diboll relearning to walk . She was in coma for a little over 3
weeks and in ICU in Lufkin for just over 2 months . But she is doing real good now she should be coming
home by the middle of April . Sorry I have missed some of your videos but I was with her everyday up
until she got into rehab , now I go every other day . Gas has been killing me at almost $4 a gallon . But
think God she will recover fully with a little time . You have a blessed one my friend and hopefully things
will get back to normal for us both soon .
I am so sorry Spencer. But it sounds like a little brightness on the horizon. Is Crystal supposed to make a full recovery?
Wish you both a full and recovery . God bless 🙏🙏
@@TargetSuite Yes it'll just take a little time.
Thanks for the video, George. I thought using the foam support for the gell blocks a clever solution. Seeing those blocks react to the bullet strikes brought to my mind how desperately l DON'T want to have to defend myself with lethal force! Nevertheless, pray for the best but have a plan if things go wrong.---TPf
Great thoughts there.
Great video, Got me thinking about a lever gun again.
Thanks for watching! Those lever guns sure are a ton of fun😁
Great idea to use foam to minimize jumping of the block. What were the penetration depths?
One point that needs to be highlighted is why velocity is so important. Sub 2,200 fps and you get a temporary wound channel where "stuff" inside just stretches. Inconvenient but not necessarily a threat stopper, at least right away. Up to a point, things remain elastic and will survive and continue to function through the unexpected intrusion.
Over 2,200 fps, "stuff" begins to shred and explode due to a number of factors, hydraulic forces being one of them. Threats tend to stop sooner when internal systems blow up and are shredded.
As to Jerry's comment about the .45-70, penetration and breaking bones were viewed as most important back in the 1800's when killing bison and eliminating a resource base of the Native American were key. Materials sciences, ballistics and FBI studies of shootings were not a thing back then. Things have changed over the past 150 years, except for one thing. Speed kills.
There's always holes left in my story. I need to make better notes . . . and condense my messages so the important stuff isn't lost in the "noise" of me yacking. The 44 mag penetrated 31 inches and the 45 Colt 27 inches. I will text you a picture of the moment of maximum expansion with the 45 Colt bullet.
Im using a lever action 22 lr . Using high pressure stingers at 1650 fps. Hollow points from cci . They will do alot of damage. My lever is set for 10 yards with iron sights. Or else i have some cci semi auto quiet 35 grains 835 fps hollow tips for gophers. I use the stingers for annoying crows and magpies because they are pests around here, also gophers get the quiet semi auto bullets.
One should never underestimate the power of the little 22lr. 💪
CCI stingers on a water filled coke can is impressive, it’s all about shot placement not caliber size , combine that with the stinger and something is going to have a bad day
What l would like to know just out of curiosity is what lever gun round would take out a Bigfoot?
Thank you another great video and You've brought a new perspective to jelly time👍😎
Haha!
Would like to see the point of impact difference with normal bullet weight in each caliber. Maybe a future video?
That's a good idea. I can tell you it's substantial. At least at Short ranges. The problem with these really lightweight bullets is that velocity drops off precipitously down range.
I suppose that those style bullets aren't available for the red-headed step child of the magnum family.
On lever guns in general for self defense I would worry that many shooters wouldn't practice enough with rapid operation of the lever and might short stroke it under stress.
Good learning video. Never even thought when I saw the hollow base xd rounds how much that could effect the velocity readings. Not sure about the petal separation on the 357 but boy the 44 & 45 rounds should work great for hunting. Happy to see you back. 👍 🙏
Thanks. I appreciate your comment.
@@TargetSuite How was recoil compared to a regular heavy load? The 45 Colt looked a little stout.
@@billdye3530 The 45 Colt was very stout! I was surprised.
HEY!!!! What about the .41 Magnum?????
I love the 41 magnum. I had an 8-3/8" Smith & Wesson back in the 70s. It fell victim to hard times. Wish I had it back
I love my lever guns, I have Marlins in 357 and 44 but sold my 45 several years ago regretfully, have other levers but in rimfire and bottleneck cartridges
Great guns, all! Thanks for watching, and thanks for the comment!
I suspect this video, is more about the personal defense one would be using an AR-15 for, rather than the up close kind that you would normally associate a handgun with. Maybe I’m wrong? I have an AR ready to go as a bug out for combat type situations and what have you. I can see a lever gun loaded up like this to fill a similar role. Tho it wouldn’t be my first choice, it may be for many. In the house I think I will stick with a pump shot gun. After 40 some odd years of hunting with an 870, it has become an extension of my body and I can operate it without any thinking involved. It will create a very bad hair day for any bad intentioned intruder in the confines of my house, no matter the load used.
Hi Mike. If I were to use a levergun for personal defense, it would be, like you said, in a scenario similar to what an AR is set up for. But for me, inside the house work is relegated to a shotgun loaded with #6s. Speaking of up close work, I watched a video a few days ago from a security camera. In the video, a woman was accosted but managed to pull her pistol and get one shot off point blank, maybe even a contact shot into the belly of her attacker. The man immediately fell to the ground and held up his had as if to say, don't shoot me again. He held that position for two or three seconds before succumbing. If he had been determined and armed, he could have easily pumped 5 rounds into that woman before the grim reaper came. So, the threat was not really stopped by her handgun. The perp just wasn't armed. My only point is, and was, to point out the weakness of handguns with their limited velocities at really stopping (immediatly) a threat. Thanks as always for watching, and for your comments!
I think we totally agree. Handguns do not drop people like we see on TV. They tend to crawl around a bit and even run quite a way at times before they give up the ghost or shoot back! The shock of high velocity rounds has the ability to anchor the target and hit the off switch instantly. As will an up close shotgun blast, do to the massive amount of damage it can inflict.
I’ve poked holes in coyotes with lower velocity rounds and they go on a run till they drain out. But when you hit one with a 22-250 and ballistic tip bullet, the energy dump and massive internal damage shuts them off like lightning.
Speed kills fast, and that is the point you were trying to get across.
Sure kicked the hornet nest with this video tho! Most people just missed the point. Keep up the good work! I’m still just amazed at a 2600 fps 45 Colt! Let us know what the pigs think of it!
I wish you could do one in 454 Kassul Rossi 92
I wish I could too. I would love to have one of those!
454 Casull is a bit rough for some folks.
Great test !! Thanks for the video !!
Thanks for watching!
Your just a mean ole denim killer! 🤣
Glad your back, I enjoy your vids
Thanks! It's good to be back!
Good stuff George!
Thanks!
The science, engineering, & math is interesting. For more real world results showing how the .357 Magnum and .44 Magnum perform in carbine lever guns I strongly suggest people watch Paul Harrell's video on the subject, & his vid regarding them in handguns. In brief, both peak out of barrel lengths from 16" to 18." Your normal defense ammo for handguns in either caliber will perform more than adequately out of a lever gun carbine. There is no "need" for specific high speed bullets for self defense.
Thanks for posting a lot of good info.
You are welcome. Thank you for