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What I Got Wrong About Ikoria Limited
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- Опубліковано 23 чер 2020
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I Can Feel it Coming Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com )
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License
creativecommons...
The cycling pay offs were so good in this set that the limited deck was basically the same as the competitive constructed deck, it was insane.
Don't feel bad about underestimating the companions. WotC did so too.
I’m still baffled how that atrocity ever saw print
Graatand Because Play Design is proving itself inept, unfortunately.
Winota too is very *dumb.*
Nothing wrong with companions as they were designed. Just whiny players who couldn't adjust...the same players who demand every other card that they don't like be banned. Yorion was by far the most powerful companion, and was the one least hurt by the nerf, while the others are completely irrelevant now.
@@Graatand like except yorion they were all fine in standard.
“A mediocre body with a cycling upside” turned into “a good cycling enabler with a mediocre body as an upside” that’s how good cycling was
*All Card Correction Grades:*
*
1. Flourishing Fox: C+ to B+
2. Huntmaster Liger: B- to C
3. Imposing Vantasuar: C- to C+
4. Snare Tactician: C to B-
5. Boon of the Wish-Giver: C+ to B
6. Frostveil Ambush: C- to C+
7. Hampering Snare: D+ to C
8. Startling Development: D+ to C+
9. Chittering Harvester: C to B-
10. Suffocating Fumes: C- to C+
11. Drannith Stinger: C to B
12. Footfall Crater: C- to C+
13. Prickly Marmoset: C/B- to B-
14. Raking Claws: D+ to C+
15. Shredded Sails: C-/C+ to C+
16. Spelleater Wolverine: D+/C+ to C+
17. Zenith Flare: D/B to D/A+
*
*Ultimatum Category:*
1. Eerie Ultimatum: B- to A
2. Emergent Ultimatum: B- to B+
3. Genesis Ultimatum: B- to B+
4. Inspired Ultimatum: B- to A
5. Ruinous Ultimatum: B- to A+
*
*Companion Category:*
1. Gyruda, Doom of Depths: B+ to A+ (Now A-)
2. Jegantha, the Wellspring: B- to A (Now B+)
3. Kaheera, the Orphanguard: B to A (Now B again)
4. Keruga, the Macrosage: B to A+ (Now A-)
5. Lurrus of the Dream-Den: B- to A- (Now B)
6. Lutri, the Spellchaser: B to A- (Now B again)
7. Obosh, the Preypiercer: B- to A+ (Now B+)
8. Umori, the Collector: B to A (Now B again)
Cycling broke limited and constructed because all of these nonrestrictive 1-mana cyclers. Yidaro was done right with 1 and a red , why would something like imposing vantasaur have cycling 1? Ridiculous
Said this elsewhere but you could add Cycling 1 onto a blank card and it would be borderline playable.
@@harrison1735 Since Standard Boros cycle decks run black and blue cards with Cycling 1 without any mana source to actually cast their non-cycle side I'd say a blank card with Cycling 1 would be straight up playable, not just borderline.
The worse part is that it makes the game totally unfun to play when you're playing against this archetype. Lack of interaction makes a deck annoying to play against.
werbearjack I play with this deck, since the only rare needed is lurus.)
Cyclind didn't break limited or constructed... In limited a great cycling deck is pretty op and the best you can do, but you need to pick cards that are quite bad if the archetype doesn't come together. In constructed cycling was good but never a problem so...
Unfortunately for this set, you could have just said I was wrong about all the one mana cyclers and been done.
As well as the companions.
I know right? 😂
Have you ever done a meta-analysis of what types of cards you consistently get wrong?
Id love to see your top 10 favorite and/or least favorite limited environments at some point as a video.
I was once handed Jegantha pack 3 while I was drafting a W/B deck and ending up taking it anyway because my entire deck up to that point already fulfilled the requirement. Was able to cast it semi-reliably off of a couple of dual lands I picked up later in the pack.
It's real easy to underestimate cycling pay offs. They're rarely the most amazing thing ever on paper, the kind of effect you'd be meh about putting in your deck as like an ETB, but when you get enough of them going suddenly you're turning a solid card selection mechanic into a 1 or 2 mana uncounterable cantrip that's doing a whole lot of minor effects and that really adds up in limited.
"What I got wrong about cycling"
Honestly Flourishing Fox was almost A-. I first picked it over so many things and it rarely disappointed.
Thanks for being a humble and objective content creator. I enjoy your take on things.
With most cyclers, the cycling ability was more of the card than the card itself. On imposing vantasaur, the 3/6 body was the upside that you would occasionally use.
This should be "What WE Got Wrong About Ikoria Limited". Lol.
Subtle not-so-subtle Inspired Ultimatum is totally "inspired" by Hearthstone's Ultimate Infestation! Deal 5, draw 5, shield 5 (and summon a 5/5)
What? It just does exactly what its three colours are known for doing in MtG. (White=heal, red=burn, blue=draw)
Why should Hearthstone have anything to do with it?
Im so shocked you didn't perfectly predict the limited format of the most complicated standard legal set ever, unsub.
Sidenote: wow im so glad i missed ikoria limited this sounds terrifying
Aside from cycling being so good, ikoria limited was pretty dope.
Ikoria limited was actually pretty fun aside from cycling, and people didn't draft cycling as much after they realized how uninteractive and overpowered it was.
It's sad that cycling was so op. Fundamentally the format was so weird and different I've never tried anything like it. I've made some absolutely hilarious plays in the format that are simply impossible in most others.
I generally prefer sealed, and this was one of my favourite formats for that; it was pretty rare to face a cycling or a powerful companion deck. Mutate was a really fun mechanic. But yeah, drafting looked like a nightmare most of the time.
Personally, I enjoyed it. It was a highly technical draft environment. As Nizzahon mentioned, there were three major ways to win (Cycling, Companion, and Ultimatum) and figuring out when and how to transition to one of them was interesting.
Surprised at no Memory Leak! The premier 1 mana cycler in black!
he probably just forgot about it.
I have been waiting for this video and while I think you missed the mark on cycling, you did great across the board. Keep up the great work!
Well, I was going to buy some Core Set 2021 this month, but I think I'll invest in some more Ikoria instead and complete my cycling deck.
I have a lot of respect for you regarding your set reviews. You give an honest thoughtful opinion about each card and then look back and see how you did. This is how we all become better.
Did Nizzahon ever play humans in the set? I thought that was an archetype that deserved to be talked about. Whisper Squad was the card that most people were saying was greatly underestimated awhile back.
There was one Ikoria draft I did where I managed to pick up a ruinous ultimatum. I’m pretty sure the deck I ended up in there had a lot of cycling too, so I was feeling pretty good about it... that is, until I started playing it. In all the games I played with that deck, I saw the ultimatum exactly once, in an opening hand that I had to mulligan because it didn’t have enough lands. I think that was the worst that I’ve ever had a deck underperform.
That's exactly what happened to me. ended up with a ruinous and a lot of good cards in general, but only ever cast it once during the whole draft.
I'm not surprised that the Wedge Ultimatium were better than you thought as the Shard Ultimatiums were also bombs back during shards limited
Drannith Slinger plus the Lifelink token fron Splendor Mare, oh boy, that was amazing.
I had multiple times when Erie Ultimatum just didn't work. I'd get my cards but couldn't select them to cast. So I avoided it like the plague
Ruinous is kinda like what cruel was for people. I want to do nothing more in life than to cast that good shit
7/1 with this, cast it 4 games, instant concede from opponent. Somehow I got a very nice shell with an offspring revenge, won me the other 3 games. Ruinous is insane.
@@NoFutureForG0uda goodbye to everything is just so good. I ran it in a five color mutate deck and it worked so well
5 mana to tap 2 creatures - me, useless. -It has cycling for 1. - Shit man, that’s all you had to say.
I think that I had the Madur ultimatum like 2 times and it did not do a lot. The problem is that is the opponents never had three or more creatures that could attack. So I had to use it and it didn‘t do a lot.
Ah the cycling apology tour! Cycling 1 was probably a mistake in design. 2 should have been the lowest
I think one mana cycling would be OK if it was “Cycling: color”
Footfall Crater is good with Flourishing Fox to give trample if your opponent is chump blocking later in the game.
"... but has cycling..."
Is it all possible to for there to be a reference document that we can look up with all of your letter gradings for use during a draft? I really appreciate the videos but it's near impossible for me (and I assume many others) to remember most of them, especially if we don't draft often because of the heavy cost on Arena
I believe that's a patreon bonus.
I disagree with Lutri being only an A- before the companion rules change. To fully utilize Lutri, you only needed to play a critical mass of low-to-medium cost instants or sorceries (and of course be singleton). I think my win percentage after copying a removal spell or Cathartic Reunion or even just Anticipate was at least 85%. Control decks could do that so easily it was laughable. With the fail case being a 3-mana Ambush Viper of sorts, I would've rated Lutri at least an A.
Weirdly I found Umori really useful for a pure spell black red burn deck,
So... cycling was underestimated in general 😂
Not agreeing on Keruga, this is probably one of (if not only) companions who are better in your starting deck instead of companion zone
Keruga is still an EEEEEEEEASY A in your maindeck. Forget the companion mechanic entirely. It's a Spined Worm with usually an Ancestral Recall stapled to it. The card is absolutely busted in Limited.
Treating them solely as maindeck includes, I'd rate the companions as follows on the scale Nizzahon uses:
Yorion-- A-
Lurrus-- A-
Zirda-- B-
Kaheera-- B-
Gyruda-- A
Lutri-- B+/A- depending on your deck contents
Keruga-- A
Obosh-- A-
Umori-- B+
Jegantha-- C+
What about Reconnaissance Mission? Did the difference was only half a grade?
As someone who doesn’t draft at all. If you see a card you really want like an Ugin but you don’t think it would work for your overall deck. Would you still draft it?
If there's nothing else particularly exciting, I would take it because I could use it outside of that draft assuming I keep the cards. If nothing is too exciting, just take your favourite
Nizzahon needs a live video where he eat all the cards he got wrong. will get you easily to 100k sub.
Towards the end of the format, I was staying away from the cycling deck. I know it's the best deck but the 1 mana cyclers weren't free like they were in the beginning of the format. If you had to run wilt in rw cycling your deck wasn't that great.
23 mins. This gon b gud
Great video! Thank you.
Shouldn’t zenith flare just be an F/A+?
It isn't unplayable in a non cycling deck. You'll end up with enough to make it hit for 2-3 on occasion. But in a cycling deck, by the time in a normal deck it's hitting 2 It's hitting 7 or 10 in a cycling deck
No post-nerf Ikoria drafts!?
:(
I still think Keruga is best as a main deck card and not as a companion. Not affecting the board for two turns in this set could be pretty punishing.
To be fair, besides the cyclers and companions you got most things right. I remember commenting on the original video that you overrated Archipelagore and it turns out you were spot on with that one. When you're evaluating a set you probably tacitly assume that there won't be too many outliers because the design team have done their job properly, but they slipped up pretty bad on this one.
Nizzahon sounds so sad in this video. :(
Fun Fact: Lurrus was the first power level ban in Vintage since the new Vintage format was introduced. Then they banned many more cards in Vintage. So Vintage is a shitfest now where cards like "Invoke Prejudice" that are strong but not overpowered in that format are banned.
@Daniel Gibbons Yes, it is not banned for power level reasons. That's what I said. They now ban cards that aren't even too strong. At this point it's a complete joke. Still one of the better blue control enchantments, especially for creatureless decks.
@Daniel Gibbons By the way, notice how "Cleanse" is banned but "Kindred Dominance" - a card that has an effect that can't get any more racist - is still allowed.
You *are* aware that the artwork was done by a white supremacist, right? Like, the fact the artwork looks "supiciously similar" isn't a coincidence.
Still think you undervalued a lot of human stuff, especially Whisper Squad (which you didn't even include in your Black video).
Ikoria was a hell of a set to get back into MTG for the first time in about 25 years. Turns out the game has changed a lot since I was in elementary. Looking forward to M21, and thanks for your reviews!
I did leave out Whisper Squad, but I wrote my rating for it. I think it was a C at best.
No updates for the human decks? I think the human anthem is A buildaround. I've never went less than 7 wins when I first picked it
I gave it a build around B-. I think that's about right.
Yes!
Ikoria limited was my least favorite in a long time.
Same. I thought mutate was dumb.
The first week was ok, then on it was 60-70% cycling matchups. They broke the freaking format.
Then again, core sets are always slower. M21 is shaping to be a pretty fun one, not as underpowered as, say, Rivals of Ixalan, but not as ridiculous and synergy-oriented as ELD and IKR.
I got silly value out of unexpected fangs
So if they printed a 1cmc uncountable cantirp it would be a B
if there was a full set of other 1cmc uncounterable cantrips and three cards that eiter take advantage of these cantrips being in the graveyard, namely dealing X/healing X, or get +1/+1 or ping on cantripping, then yes. Its easier to say that a blank card with cycling 1 is B.
Awful limited environment, imo. My least favorite in many years. Cycling and the lack of removal ruined it for me.
Lack of removal??? This set had a lot of removal and it was some of the best we've ever had in limited!
As a newly returning player, I loved Ikoria draft.
If you take out Cycling 1 (change to cycling 2 or cycling color) and companions, it becomes alright.
Ha, everything goes up a grade because of a fox 🦊
I personally think Zenith Flare should have cost 1URW and been a rare.
No, it should just say "target creature", and would be fine.
Your original rating of the Ultimatums was much more correct. They were really not too amazing and they were bad first picks.
What you did underestimate massively was Barrier Breach.
I don't know what format you were playing where the ultimatums weren't amazing.
@@NizzahonMagic I drafted them like five times, but they made it into my deck maybe twice, and I actually casted them maybe twice out of seven games or so. Even with plenty of dual lands and Farfinders. And they were amazing maybe every second time I casted them. And maybe every second time my enemies casted them. Had to laugh when my enemy played Emergent Ultimatum to put a 4/3 onto the battlefield and give one of his creates +2/+0 and indistructible. Sorcery speed. No, they were rarely amazing. Even in your drafts, by the way, and I watched all of them. They are hardly worth committing heavily to three colors early on.
Y'all heard of cycling?
i still think ur wrong xD i would take snare over fox, snare is borderline broken no b- more like a- xD and in no world i would pick drannith over him xD
Dranith stinger is a her not a he.
We're talking WOTC here...it's probably Ze or Zir
@@brucesmith54 I must admit, I have no idea what you are talking about. 😅
So most cards are As
I am so damn tired of the stupid cycling deck. Who in R&D thought it would be fun to have a 100% linear, completely non-interactive deck that just digs to its 1 spell win condition every game? I just auto-concede to it at this point because I don't want to waste another 3.5 minutes of my life playing the exact same game. I think mutate was a genuinely fun mechanic, but in standard it's been ruined by Paradise Druid making so many games completely uninteractive. Would be much easier to mitigate a turn 5 Starrix, put your whole deck on the battlefield, if the damn druid didn't make the mutate pile impossible to interact with. My favorite deck out of Ikoria has to be the menace deck, since it's an interactive aggro deck that plays almost like control at times. Killing the opponent by whacking them with the giant threat they just played for 1 red mana is also pretty satisfying when you can set up the turn to do it.
What Nizzahon got wrong .... should have actually gone to investing instead of buying overpriced pieces of cardboard.
FYI, I don't buy any overpriced pieces of cardboard.
homie he drafts on MTG Arena
This is just listening to him make excuses.
well it would be pretty pointless with no explanations...he's not defending his picks, he's saying why they were wrong
Isn’t admitting what you got wrong and holding yourself publicly accountable for it literally the opposite of making excuses?