I was always under the assumption that the Klingon ships aiding Picard at Nelvana III were K'Vort class ships, rather than B'rel class. At least visually the two decloaking behind the Warbirds appear to be similar in width, whereas a B'rel is far smaller. Regardless, another great video. Keep them coming!
The B'Rel is the K'Vort class in the Prime timeline, though they are often confused. The larger version of the Bird of Prey was named K'Vort in the Yesterday's Enterprise timeline, but it was only named *once* in the Prime timeline: in the episode "Rascals" Worf identified the 2 large Bop's as "B'Rel" class. To my knowledge, the smaller "standard" BoP has only ever been named "Bird of Prey" and has never been called a B'Rel on screen
@@adamlee2111 Thanks for the quick reply. I know I'm being a little nerdy here, but I appreciate you helping clarify this for me. It's something I've always wondered about, but had trouble finding a proper answer. Cheers!
@@adamlee2111You appear to be right about Rascals. In DS9 though the IKS Koraga is referred to as a K'Vort class so it is not a Yesterday's Enterprise exclusive. In any case, maybe Bridge Commander is what's wrong. The ships that decloak in this episode are the larger variety, not the smaller variety, but Bridge Commander calls the small ones "B'Rel" and the large ones "K'Vort." Just saying, this should have been more one-sided favoring the Enterprise and Klingons.
@@SnugglehPuppeh Thanks for that, I didn't know about the IKS Koraga. I'm not sure it would be more one sided than this though, I see the B'Rel/K'Vort as solid and being a big step up from the BoP but still not all that powerful. Klingon ships tend to be a step below their Fed counterpart, so a Vor'Cha is a step below a Galaxy/Nebula (closer to an Ambassador), the B'Rel a step below the Excelsior, a Bop a step behind a Miranda etc Fortunately there are several different sizes of the BoP type to play with, usually ranging from 109 to 475m. My B'Rel model is only 230m so its the smaller large BoP if that makes sense?! I have a version thats 330ish metres as well. I could leave the current model as the B'Rel class and introduce the larger model and call it the K'Vort. This would provide a solution to the inconsistent size and power levels of the BoP type seemingly every time it appears on screen. Compared to Fed ships it would look like this: Galaxy reference: strength 1,000 Excelsior DS9 strength 480. The BoP would clock in at about 180, the B'Rel 280-300 and the K'Vort 400. So, every time we see a BoP display stupid capabilities for its size, its actually the smaller version of the large BoP, and by putting the K'Vort at 400 strength, 3 would defeat a Galaxy as seen in Y.Ent, and 2 of them would be a big threat if the Galaxy was caught with its pants down and its crew were incompetent as seen in Rascals.
@@adamlee2111 Yeah, the larger BoP I believe there is a big article at the Ex Astris Scientia site about the BoP size "problem." Essentially, there are like five different BoP sizes seen in TOS era films, TNG and DS9. Long story short, the general consensus that the smaller BoP, the attack ship variant is about 110-150m long (though some seen are much smaller). The larger cruiser variant, like in the TNG episode "The Defector," Redemption Parts I and II, the IKS Koraga, etc., are pegged at about 350-360m long which tracks given its size comparison to the Vorcha. I have always rated the attack variant of the BoP as roughly 40% superior to the Dominion Bug Ship across the board, though clearly heavily outmatched by the Defiant Class. The BoP Cruisers I would peg at about roughly 80% of a TNG Excelsior, though because of the doctrine of the Klingon Fleet, the BoP Cruiser has very heavy forward firepower that can match the Excelsior, but its lack of good 360 firing arcs, weaker shields etc. make it clearly a step behind the Excelsior. In other match-ups, I would say the BoP Cruiser is superior to the Galor Type II, again thanks to that insane forward fire-power, but inferior to the Galor Type III or Ferengi Marauder. I generally agree with Mike Okuda and other TNG producers that the Vorcha is twice as powerful as the cruiser BoP because it is just a much better all-around ship with better protection. The Defector match-up is interesting as I am not sure two BoP cruisers can actually match a D'Deridex. There is a good argument to be made that the BoP Cruiser is actually not a good cruiser design at all, but an over-sized attack ship that has to be used tactically like a large attack ship. It belies a period of Klingon design stagnation wherein instead of building a proper replacement for the K'Tinga, and the five decades-long problems with the Vorcha project, the Klingons were forced to simply upscale the BoP design and it worked for a few decades because the Romulans were mostly in isolation and Starfleet was also stagnating. *The Cruiser BoPs in the Defector are actually huge. According to Ex Astris Scientia, the scaling of those ships are off, and that based on size comparisons with the D'Deridex and Galaxy, those BoPs were like 680m in length, with wingspans of over 800m.
I thought the weak point on a Warbird was the bridge. Simply flee and target the bridge with a aft weapons at long range while avoiding the heavier enemy fire. Any time they face you, they get punched in the nose. Once the Warbird bridge is destroyed, the whole ship goes. Similar weakness exists on the Galaxy.
@@MegaZeta To be honest, it's been a few years since I've played Bridge Commander, so who knows how many updates there have been to the damage models since then. Glad to see the game still has a following though.
I changed the Bridge to non-critical on all of my ships, I always viewed it as a little odd that destroying the Bridge would make the ship explode. I think in "real life" command functions would transfer to Engineering if the Bridge was destroyed.
Pretty much the expected outcome, and if Picard wasn't such a peace-loving type, Nelvana would've been Tomalak's last mistake. Yes, it might have led to full-scale war with the Romulans, but more likely they would've just crawled back in their space and left us alone, since that's what they do whenever the Federation gives them a bloody nose.
The last BoP seemed to be putting out pretty good firepower when it wasn't being targeted by the Romulans...in any case fodder is very useful as well :p
I was always under the assumption that the Klingon ships aiding Picard at Nelvana III were K'Vort class ships, rather than B'rel class. At least visually the two decloaking behind the Warbirds appear to be similar in width, whereas a B'rel is far smaller. Regardless, another great video. Keep them coming!
The B'Rel is the K'Vort class in the Prime timeline, though they are often confused. The larger version of the Bird of Prey was named K'Vort in the Yesterday's Enterprise timeline, but it was only named *once* in the Prime timeline: in the episode "Rascals" Worf identified the 2 large Bop's as "B'Rel" class. To my knowledge, the smaller "standard" BoP has only ever been named "Bird of Prey" and has never been called a B'Rel on screen
@@adamlee2111 Thanks for the quick reply. I know I'm being a little nerdy here, but I appreciate you helping clarify this for me. It's something I've always wondered about, but had trouble finding a proper answer. Cheers!
@@adamlee2111You appear to be right about Rascals. In DS9 though the IKS Koraga is referred to as a K'Vort class so it is not a Yesterday's Enterprise exclusive. In any case, maybe Bridge Commander is what's wrong. The ships that decloak in this episode are the larger variety, not the smaller variety, but Bridge Commander calls the small ones "B'Rel" and the large ones "K'Vort." Just saying, this should have been more one-sided favoring the Enterprise and Klingons.
@@SnugglehPuppeh Thanks for that, I didn't know about the IKS Koraga.
I'm not sure it would be more one sided than this though, I see the B'Rel/K'Vort as solid and being a big step up from the BoP but still not all that powerful. Klingon ships tend to be a step below their Fed counterpart, so a Vor'Cha is a step below a Galaxy/Nebula (closer to an Ambassador), the B'Rel a step below the Excelsior, a Bop a step behind a Miranda etc
Fortunately there are several different sizes of the BoP type to play with, usually ranging from 109 to 475m. My B'Rel model is only 230m so its the smaller large BoP if that makes sense?! I have a version thats 330ish metres as well.
I could leave the current model as the B'Rel class and introduce the larger model and call it the K'Vort. This would provide a solution to the inconsistent size and power levels of the BoP type seemingly every time it appears on screen.
Compared to Fed ships it would look like this: Galaxy reference: strength 1,000 Excelsior DS9 strength 480. The BoP would clock in at about 180, the B'Rel 280-300 and the K'Vort 400. So, every time we see a BoP display stupid capabilities for its size, its actually the smaller version of the large BoP, and by putting the K'Vort at 400 strength, 3 would defeat a Galaxy as seen in Y.Ent, and 2 of them would be a big threat if the Galaxy was caught with its pants down and its crew were incompetent as seen in Rascals.
@@adamlee2111 Yeah, the larger BoP I believe there is a big article at the Ex Astris Scientia site about the BoP size "problem." Essentially, there are like five different BoP sizes seen in TOS era films, TNG and DS9. Long story short, the general consensus that the smaller BoP, the attack ship variant is about 110-150m long (though some seen are much smaller). The larger cruiser variant, like in the TNG episode "The Defector," Redemption Parts I and II, the IKS Koraga, etc., are pegged at about 350-360m long which tracks given its size comparison to the Vorcha. I have always rated the attack variant of the BoP as roughly 40% superior to the Dominion Bug Ship across the board, though clearly heavily outmatched by the Defiant Class. The BoP Cruisers I would peg at about roughly 80% of a TNG Excelsior, though because of the doctrine of the Klingon Fleet, the BoP Cruiser has very heavy forward firepower that can match the Excelsior, but its lack of good 360 firing arcs, weaker shields etc. make it clearly a step behind the Excelsior. In other match-ups, I would say the BoP Cruiser is superior to the Galor Type II, again thanks to that insane forward fire-power, but inferior to the Galor Type III or Ferengi Marauder. I generally agree with Mike Okuda and other TNG producers that the Vorcha is twice as powerful as the cruiser BoP because it is just a much better all-around ship with better protection. The Defector match-up is interesting as I am not sure two BoP cruisers can actually match a D'Deridex. There is a good argument to be made that the BoP Cruiser is actually not a good cruiser design at all, but an over-sized attack ship that has to be used tactically like a large attack ship. It belies a period of Klingon design stagnation wherein instead of building a proper replacement for the K'Tinga, and the five decades-long problems with the Vorcha project, the Klingons were forced to simply upscale the BoP design and it worked for a few decades because the Romulans were mostly in isolation and Starfleet was also stagnating.
*The Cruiser BoPs in the Defector are actually huge. According to Ex Astris Scientia, the scaling of those ships are off, and that based on size comparisons with the D'Deridex and Galaxy, those BoPs were like 680m in length, with wingspans of over 800m.
This was a glorious battle! The Galaxy class did not dissapoint.
@@02ujtb00626 can’t beat a Galaxy giving a D’Deridex a good pasting 👍
@@adamlee2111 for sure 👍
Nicely done again.
I thought the weak point on a Warbird was the bridge. Simply flee and target the bridge with a aft weapons at long range while avoiding the heavier enemy fire. Any time they face you, they get punched in the nose. Once the Warbird bridge is destroyed, the whole ship goes. Similar weakness exists on the Galaxy.
So you thought
@@MegaZeta To be honest, it's been a few years since I've played Bridge Commander, so who knows how many updates there have been to the damage models since then. Glad to see the game still has a following though.
I changed the Bridge to non-critical on all of my ships, I always viewed it as a little odd that destroying the Bridge would make the ship explode. I think in "real life" command functions would transfer to Engineering if the Bridge was destroyed.
@@adamlee2111 Interesting. Makes sense.
Awesome! Always wondered how that would have turned out. You should do more hypothetical battles from episodes. 🙂
No problem I'm writing a list!
Enterprise-D vs. Klingon Vor'cha and two K'vort must be included.
@@Euripides_Panz wow that would be tall order for a single Galaxy, I’ll give it a go!
Pretty much the expected outcome, and if Picard wasn't such a peace-loving type, Nelvana would've been Tomalak's last mistake. Yes, it might have led to full-scale war with the Romulans, but more likely they would've just crawled back in their space and left us alone, since that's what they do whenever the Federation gives them a bloody nose.
The BoP's in that encounter were K'Vorts, not B'Rels.
Those klingons seem to only be fodder to give the D some time... not really a big help in the end :P
The last BoP seemed to be putting out pretty good firepower when it wasn't being targeted by the Romulans...in any case fodder is very useful as well :p
@@keyboardt8276 true, yes. Commented half way through
The Klingons fought with honor.
Yes, they did, Mr. Worf.
Nah, they were essential. If the two Warbirds focused down the Galaxy first, that might have been a different outcome. Distractions are always useful.