Monitor Bullet Seating Force: K&M Precision Force Pack with L.E. Wilson Seating Die

[@deadmanshand1330]

I'm not watching, I'm not watching, I can't afford to.

[@JayJay-wf4cd]

*Works perfectly for my use as a heated press **MyBest.Tools** Space between the ram jack and the base is a little tight. Make sure you set the ram jack arm so that it's in a position for you to get maximum leverage on whatever you're pressing. You may have to unbolt the front plate of the press and realign the ram in the teeth so that the arm is not at an awkward angle when fully cranked down.Other than aligning the ram in the teeth with the crank arm this .5 ton arbor press comes out of the box pretty much ready to use.*

[@fishlife1013]

Been having issues getting it to work im having to use waaaay to much force when using it on virgin ADG brass and reaming it out to .306

[@blacksand9805]

K&M makes really good reloading tools. You can also see unconsitencies in the neck tensions by measuring the seating depth with a caliper and the right tool.
cartridge a bit longer = higher neck tension.
Then knowing these different neck tensions you can sort your cartridges to improve your groups !

[@ecleveland1]

Need to have the breakaway and seating force marks that stop at the release and full stop pressure so you can have a better read on the force applied for each. The same as an RCBS trigger scale if that gives you a better idea of what I'm talking about.

[@greenacres4518]

To really use neck tension as a sorting step and to use neck bushings properly, neck turning, neck reaming makes the process much more accurate and controllable. New brass almost always has extra thick necks, except in the case of hornady and civilian winchester. Neck measurement with a neck micrometer is much more accurate than a standard square edged caliper.
FL size 1st, ream ID to caliber, neck turn to 0.015" on medium length cartridges, 260, 308, 6mm, 6.5mm, 7mm. Expand, then test widest bushing 1st and step down narrower until your bushing gives you semi-consistent ft/lb readings on the force pack.
Then sort by ft/lb measurement.
Using low force pack for a bolt rifle, I get 12-20 ft/lb readings. Still tight enough not to hand pull the bullet back out.

[@charlesirby9222]

Another piece of equipment that'll soon be gathering dust.

[@PounderLabs]

Enjoyed the video and glad to see UR jumping into this!! One clarification, the K&M is using a calibrated Belleville washer stack. You may be interested in a couple of the PounderLabs videos about using an instrumental version of the K&M press. You're right about all the variables that come into play here… We are looked at annealing and agree with you it's an important factor.

[@davidschmidt5810]

That would definitely put a number on what you feel while you are seating bullets. I assume you would then sort accordingly. It also might be good to identify issues with the neck tension, you may not be aware of. Like you said, annealing, neck turning, lubrication, etc. Thanks for the video.

[@PatriotPaulUSA]

Inside and outside neck reaming/turning and annealing must be next ! I finally broke down and ordered the inline Wilson dies/ K&M arbor press and force pack setup. I really like my Whidden, Forster and Redding dies. But these Redding chamber dies are by far the most well made dies I have now. However the machining and edge softening and polishing is 1st rate on these Wilsons. I have read the internal neck inconsistencies can alter the rounds launch, by grabbing onto 1 side more than the other. Also by altering the bullets axis from the start in the bore. (as shown on runout gauges.) The round starts slightly off center and kinda bounces around getting started down the bore. By neck turning the inside, the seating drag can be lowered, and make the launch that much straighter and more consistent at ignition time. Seems all the benchrest/ F class and long distance guys all do this, for good reason. This should help any reloads shoot more consistant and straighter.

[@85krink]

Sweet, now all someone needs to do is program an arduino with a digital gage and steady seating speed (aka motorized) and then you can track the seating of the bullet more accurately.

[@jmkhenka]

yeah something like the trigger-breakthing he uses. Graphs for everyone

[@harveygussow7913]

Information is knowledge. What goes on to seat projectile tells what makes. a good reload. To much knowledge never hurts anyone.

[@karlweiby2307]

Would love to see a follow up with annealed brass to see the difference

[@deeeeeeps]

Going in doesn't matter. Going out does. "case in point" I size some brass, neck tension was .002", I copper brushed the inside of the neck, pressed a bullet. The bullet seated great and I thinking to myself I'll have much more consistant release because I got the existing copper out. Then realized I seated it too deep, went to pull the bullet and I thought for sure something on my press was going to break. That bullet fused itself to case with incredible force. I was lucky to learn my lesson then but it also taught me going in doesn't matter near as much as out.

[@marcdenis6466]

Would be nice to have some measure of the variation in MV versus variation in neck tension with seating depth controlled by head to ogive dimension, not COL measured head to meplat.

[@foxtales4809]

Not sure what knowledge we're supposed to assertain from this . We already know brass work hardens , we can tell this by measuring the springback post sizing using a headspace gauge ,after a few firings .
The answer is simple , anneal your brass and be consistent in your case prep .
Seating using an arbor press on the other hand , proven to aid concentricity. The gauge is probably best kept in the draw with snake oil , to prevent corrosion.
Now where are those pigeons when you're ready with the cat ?

[@aminkhashm]

hi Gav! big fan of you.
I loved the compression you made for most of the reloading presses you got your hands on.
could you please compare all powder dispensers on the market. thank you.

[@danielmatthews3420]

Thanks I have one and love it!

[@geokirwin]

Should have started out with this

[@ocean374]

Awesome that’s pretty cool

[@FullSendPrecision]

That's a lot of neck tension.

[@Simple5.0]

After 20 years of reloading a specific cartridge and are trying to wring out a smaller group maybe this is the way to go. I can see its benefits but throwing all this extra data into your work ups might be like shooting yourself in the foot.

[@milboltnut]

good stuff Gavin.. test test test..... yep.

[@duckslayer11000]

More please, thank you :)

[@jaxwest6289]

Helped alot, thanks

[@philliprdavies]

We need mitre training for like this. Well done.

[@allenclayton7]

Try resizing FL without the expander ball then using a Sinclair expander mandrel.

[@dougoliver5964]

This is the way to go.should be more consistent pressure.

[@RetrieverTrainingAlone]

Also use a Pin Gauge (Vemont Gage has them in .0001" increments) to determine the internal case necks are really consistent.

[@vwpieces]

That arbor needs a longer arm to be remotely consistent. A demo with some neck turned and neck sized brass....

[@dougoliver5964]

Also try this with a mandrel sizing setup.that way the pressure should be more consistent.

[@CircleBrewery]

Looks like u could use the harbor press with the Lee classic loader instead of using a hammer

[@kassilewis5511]

That's how I've always used mine.

[@EagleEyeShooting]

With today's modern tools like this. Its just awesome to be able to make such consistent ammo. Neck tension is super important in regards to Accuracy. Have you ever read the article about Virgil King, Secrets of the Houston Warehouse?
precisionrifleblog.com/2013/10/18/secrets-of-the-houston-warehouse-lessons-in-extreme-rifle-accuracy/
In this famous article Virgil explained how he and his co workers chambered the most precise rifle. No sizing was mentioned. Instead the cases where strickly lapped while relying on .0017" of brass spring back. Virgil emphasized seating bullets by hand and getting a feel for a how the bullets where seated. It was mentioned this was key for the extreme accuracy they where achieving. If anyone has the time. I highly recommend reading the original article. Its an awesome read!

[@Ultimatereloader]

Thanks for sharing Kenny- I REALLY want that 325 yard indoor range!!! :) Good stuff.

[@johnblythe8229]

Excellent article Kenny. My mentor passed it to me multi years ago. Need to circle back and read again.

[@steverowe2943]

Not exactly sure what the point of this is given that there is no published data on what the seating force should be. The annealing comparison aspect might be interesting. Equally interesting would be the differences between various neck bushing sizes.

[@shaneengelberts120]

Awsome!

[@leefeatherston7014]

annealing them would probably help cool video can use one 👍 thanks

[@kentrumm1385]

It would be interesting to see if chamfered necks make a difference. Also, does neck turning yield more consistent results.

[@AKGuru4774]

Neck reaming does, OD neck turning not so much other than it gives it a more concentric neck (for F/L sizing or bushing sizing) ID reaming, makes the hole (where bullet goes into) be in the same in-line axis of the whole case, and that itself would allow you to have less force (ie, more accuracy and more consistent fps/groups) as pressure needs to be minimal to push the bullet out vs building it up to push the bullet out of the neck with say .003” tension.

[@darnelltobar9726]

Wouldn't it test differently with a primer and powder?🤔

[@SDA-Sound]

I'm SUPER new to re loading.. like never done it new but ordering stuff. haha. curious but if annealing, and bullet seat depth and position (i.e. using concentricity measuring to verify "precision"), assuming your powder charges are exact, and primers are set perfect, wouldn't neck tension be the key factor in the FPS of a round while chronographing?And if neck tension is a critical factor (which is why we anneal and such) wouldn't this method using this exact set up be literally the ONLY way to determine that factor with any sort of number you could write down? for instance if you grabbed a whooooole bunch of already shot and annealed brass, and you marked each brass by the down force readings of this gauge, and grouped them based off those readings, then used each group in a FPS chronograph test. I wonder what the results would tell. To me the factors at play if the brass was sized would be the thickness of the neck, the strength of it, hard or soft, the bullet itself (do reloaders ever measure each bullet to be sure?) and the final factor would be the lube. To me dry powder would be a bad idea then because a build up could then create an uneven application right?

[@xitianllc]

Was that ft/lbs or inch/lbs? interesting video! I never would have guessed it took that much pressure. I saw an F-class guy using one and was wondering how it worked. Thanks for the great content!

[@bubbanater1984]

Had to be inch/lbs I doubt that the thumb would able to seat 90 foot lbs

[@Ultimatereloader]

This is linear force, not torque. So it's just "pounds". :)

[@greenacres4518]

It was ft/lb. more than likely. I have the old version K+M with the low force pack.

[@Sherman62]

As Gavin says, it is simply pounds of linear force, not unlike setting a 60 lb weight on top of the ram. If we knew the mechanical advantage of the press, we could translate that into the amount of pressure needed on the lever and the ft/lb of torque required.
At a mech. adv. of 10:1, 60 lb at the ram would require 6 pounds at the lever (plus frictional losses). 6 pounds of pressure on a 4" lever would be 2 ft/lb of torque.

[@rebelreloading5265]

Dang man! 👍

[@user-yg7jd1tu1h]

I really like you reload table i must have missed the video of the installing of that track and where you got the track and clamps. I would like a little info on that if you could thanks a bunch big fan.

[@ack495]

I’m a total newbie when it comes to reloading so I’m just checking out gear at this point trying to figure out what to use. This seems like a great idea in theory but it seems like the force to see it it is so inconsistent that it just adds a whole other thing to worry about now. It be great if you could set the tension you want so that it breaks free like a torque driver

[@greenacres4518]

Once you do it for yourself, you'll see (break away not nec). Every case is very different in tension. Sorting cases to get them consistent according to tension can be very expensive. Peterson brass is much better than Lapua on this. Sorting to keep tensions between 12+24 ft/lbs is fairly reasonable or 10-22 ft/lbs. This is a very tight window without getting crazy expensive. Findng the magic combo of neck bushing and neck turning to 0.015" helps greatly. Spotting cases with narrow neck thickness while neckturning also helps weed out inconsistencies (as you neck turn, thin neck thickness wont get shaved. You'll have very shiny metal where the neck did get shaved- "keeper cases" will be obvious at this moment by being completely neck turned/shaved evenly on entire neck surface.
Inconsistent neck thickness cases become useless or too loose to hold a bullet without narrowing your bushing by 0.001"

[@Sherman62]

You have to apply as much pressure as it takes to seat the bullet. Knowing how much pressure it took can help identify an issue of escessive or inconsistent neck tension. The press is available (and cheaper) without the force indicator for those who would rather not know.

[@p.t.anderson1593]

Interesting, don't think I'll ever do it but still interesting...
Have you ever done a video about what kind of condition brass can be in a still be reloadable? One of my rifles dents the mouth of the case and another puts a shallow crease in the side fairly often. I haven't started reloading yet but I'm getting pretty close. I did start collecting brass a while ago...

[@georgeholt8929]

May I ask if you had taken the virgin brass and measured the neck thickness by using a ball micrometer, then trim them for neck thickness uniformity prior to loading them for the first time? Trimming to remove high spots or areas around the neck that are thicker compared to areas of the neck that are thinner in thickness. Of course this first trim can be done both on the inside and the outside of the case at the neck of the case mouth. I am asking this because I found it odd you would say the cases maybe suffering from work hardness after being worked prior to being fired only once. I am perhaps old school, in that I trim my brass case necks if they are not 100 percent the same thickness, then I will trim them again after firing them each time to the chosen thickness. Then I may anneal those cases after they have been fired 5-7 times depending on brand of case.

[@86309]

Did you see a significant reduction in ES

[@akaeldin]

now does that push on the tip of the bullet or on the ogive, what is price on this unit. do you need to get special dies for different bullets and cal.

[@freedomisgolf5816]

Gavin I have just started in long range shooting and learning heaps my question is do I buy an arbour press as well and as I wet tumble with stainless steel pins then anneal and neck with a Lee collet dye before priming and loading which set do I need gauges wise and what other measuring equipment do you suggest please great vid thanks

[@armandobenavides2417]

What die would you recommend for the lapua brass. The small flash hole?

[@s.manuel7969]

Armando Benavides
Redding die’s work with brass with small flash holes. I get good results with the Redding bushing die- you can control the amount of neck tension with it

[@armandobenavides2417]

S. Manuel
I appreciate your input. All Redding, or is their a particular one. I’ve read good reviews on those dies & I am Interested in the competition or the hunting. Thanks again

[@s.manuel7969]

Armando Benavides
From what I have read in forums Redding will send you the proper size pin if the die you buy has the larger pin, just contact Redding. The die that I have that works is the Type S bushing style full sizing die, part #77446. You will have to purchase a bushing in addition to the die. And you will need a micrometer to measure the outside neck diameter of your loaded cartridge. From this measurement, subtract .001 and that will give you the size bushing to order.

[@akaeldin]

does it push the bullet on the ogive or the tip of the bullet.

[@RetrieverTrainingAlone]

The ogive

[@gotmythumbs]

an old saying, if you don't measure it you can't control it.

[@greasegun1313]

60000 PSI pushing it out isn't going to care if if went in at 50lbs or 70lbs.

[@martinwilliams9453]

Does anybody out there use an M- die ? And what do u think.

[@Painterrap]

Ok so I might be in over my head because I don't really precision reload and what reloading I have done I just started doing in the last year or so. I guess I'm just struggling to see what the purpose of this device really is or where you get value added by using it. I know it measure the amount of force it takes to seat a bullet but can't you tell most of the time by hand when your neck tension starts to increase or decreass. And how does it help you solve the problem? It just tells you your brass neck tension may have been work hardened and you might need to anneal? I mean I don't really know so I'm asking. It just seems to me that a properly flared case neck and an occasional annealing in conjunction with a quality seating die/stem will pretty much keep you in the good

[@Mrtrucker1981]

Ryan Painter it more for those who are really trying to make sure every load is as close to a direct clone. If you have one with a slightly tighter neck tension than the other it will chance the point of impact and the further you shoot the more pronounced that impact shift gets. For most of us we dont need this but there are those out there that do. I see this more for the bench rest guys.

[@Painterrap]

steve griffith
Yeah that makes sense. All that I have reloaded so far is 223, 9mm and 45acp. As you can see my experience is limited and all the work I have done has been on a single stage. With that said after 3-4 loadings sometimes I can tell when my 223 brass is getting harder because during the sizing and bullet seating the force needed to complete the operation starts to increase and in some cases it's enough that I can really tell by hand.

[@Mrtrucker1981]

Ryan Painter I have been reloading for over 20 years on a single stage. Multiple calibers lots of hunting ammo and plinking ammo. Never had I needed to know my seating lbs. like most I go off feel. I’m not a bench rest shooter or trying to take a bottle cap off at 1000yrds. I’ll shoot 1500 yards at a metal plate all day long for fun but by no means am I under 10MOA at that distance. I get it tho some people like to overly geek out and that’s cool. Only way I would use something like this is if it was digital and stopped at the highest Load. Analog to me would be to frustrating . Most of us will run out of talent before actually ever needing this. 😂

[@Painterrap]

steve griffith
Well I wanted to make sure I wasn't crazy or anything when I said I could feel when the bullet was starting to get more difficult to seat. Like I said I have only been reloading for a little over a year so I didn't want to make to bold of a statement but I was pretty sure I could tell when the force needed to seat a bullet started to increase. I just feel like this is a product for the absolute upper echelon of precision reloaders and even then it may only appeal to those that really nerd out on the science behind reloading.

[@AccuSol-ERN]

The handle force needs to be automated to get consistent results.......eliminating the human factor.
Annealing, mandrel sizing the necks, and neck lube are your friends........

[@18aprilia]

What is the total length of that die?

[@SDMacMan]

Oh come on! Humans have been reloading for thousands of years without the need for this ridiculous gadget!

[@RealHankShill]

Thousands of years? Like, back when Jesus was reloadin for his ol 30-30?

[@frankschneider5566]

😂😂😂😂😂😂. This exchange was priceless. Made my day.

[@davedave2941]

Yes and his preferred wpn was the lever action Red Ryder

[@SDMacMan]

@@RealHankShill yes. 😂