the INDIE GAME dream is a WASTE of your time
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- Опубліковано 11 чер 2024
- Or is it? Is the indie game dream real, or a waste of time? Let's break it down!
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► What I believe: • What I Believe
Thank you SO MUCH for the great questions on Reddit guys.
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ok
Hey Thomas, do existing users get the 3D course as well or is this only for new peeps?
Hey Thomas,
your course looks promising but I would like to ask how it's going with the unity-part for someone who's using another engine. Are there any plans to split your course in smaller modules so someone could pick what he need? I really like your style of teaching so far but I'm not a unity or unreal person. :)
Hey man, can I chat with you for in private for few minutes?
One way that I overcome the fear of wasting time is to realize that I am not wasting my time when I am making my game because I am making my game for fun. If it sells, then cool! But, I don't make it my first priority. I already enjoy my job and earn income as a school music teacher. Thus, I make games just to fill up downtime. And in that, there's no pressure for me.
I think Thomas is trying to focus on helping to develop the skillset and confidence of people wanting to become full-time developers though. Sure, keeping it as a hobby is fine, but it's a completely different mindset as you point out.
its not like that for everyone
his point is valid though. dont develop in secret in hopes of dropping the next triple A game. show your work and get advice as you go.
Same for me. I find making my game fun in itself and also I'm making a kind of game that doesn't exist but I really want to play it.
I swear he looks completely different every time I see him
My only issue with the "make a game people want to play" is you may find yourself going crazy trying to do that. When I was in design some years ago with shirts, one successful designer said "the key is making a shirt YOU want to wear" A design YOU want to have. Not just trying to make a cash grab with no creativity. And not that focusing on what others want is bad, but I find the later to be better for me with less disapointment.
I had an architecture professor who said the difference between an artist and a designer is an artist creates for himself, or to express themselves while the designer creates for others to use or enjoy. I find this to be very black and white because they're is a middle ground and by that I mean, like with all things in life, you want to achieve perfect balance. When it comes to art or design I don't think we ever will but we can try to get as close as possible.
@@awesome2wsx art and design go hand in hand so thats confusing. You cant really be a graphic designer without having some kind of artistic skill and you can't really be an artist without having some form of design to your art
I think the 'make a game people want to play' is to help people that have no idea what they are doing.
@@epicochafausen9312 that be even worse.
@@Phoenix-gz9xb Yeah, that makes sense. You still need artistic skill in order to convey design the best you can and what's the point of good art if the design sucks. I think my professor was talking more about intention when he was describing the fundamental differences between the two.
I’m not a game dev at all but a writer: and this is incredibly relatable and something I’ve been struggling with. Thanks for this!
You can use wattpad and royal road
"Well at least you only wasted 3 months of your life"
Maybe I'm in the wrong business...
If you are worried about 3 months you definitely are in the wrong business 😆
It's all about the tools available, and what you're willing to give-up control of in order to fail quickly. For artists, making a game can take a very long time because everything seen in the game is custom drawn. This means the prototyping phase is a HUGE step of making sure they don't waste those months. For someone like myself, who does mostly programming and uses purchased art, literally everything I do is a prototype I can use for something else. You just have to find the part of the business that suits you :)
the thought of wasting 3 months working on something is scary, but what's actually scary is being realistic about how much time we're already wasting by working on nothing or something misdirected...
It's so important to realize that indie game development is entrepreneurship. Even with something like running a YT channel. It''s so important to learn, grow, fail, and repeat. Taking and implementing feedback constantly. If you want to make money, then it needs to be treated like any other business.
Great video Thomas!
Really depends on the term 'is my game a waste of time?' Well, are you enjoying making it? Take everything else out of the equation .... money, fans, fame, whatever. Just stick with 'am I loving what I am creating?' If yes, then you're not wasting your time at all. Unfortunately in the day and age we live, wasting time literally means, 'no outcome' or no 'external gratification', and as such, this causes the depression and anxiety a lot of artists face, because it's drummed into us as a society to seek external gratification. Take it out of the picture and focus on the passion for your project :) Then all the other stuff follows!
For me, it's not something I fear and I don't see it as wasted time even if I may never finish. I love learning all the different crafts included in gaming making, and also problem solving, being creative and being free to do what I want. 🙂
Agreed, saying that it’s objectively a waste of time is just false and clickbaity. For Thomas it may be considered a waste, but for someone else it may not be-it’s subjective, and depends on how rewarding you personally find it to be.
@@bmba If you try to make a living of it, then yes it's the whole point here. Nothing wrong with doing stuff up for the purpose of learning/enjoying yourself it's also part of the process. Nobody likes wasting their time, now it only depend on your definition of what a "waste" is and what is your goal.
@@2Jackrabbit even if you didn't made money out of couple months of developing a game you still have something... the tools you created, the technology you understood better, with enough feedback and smart thinking, it is possible to find a way to make your game fun and interesting with a little work... or maybe you need to change your art a bit, get it to a different audience... the possibilities are limitless and all you do is being on one big journey. I don't believe there is anything like "wasting your time". The real problem is, not having a clear set of goals and not evaluating your work agains it in all ego-curshing honesty on a regular basis. I'd say if you got that you're destined to reach your goal sooner or later (yes life can get in your way).
@@PavelFadrhonc yes totally agree nothing is ever a waste In my opinion's too. Gamedev is a problem solving business, learning is the reward in itself. But many people out there have difficulty to objectively evalute their projects and pull the plug if needed, make a recap ( post mortem ) then start learning something else.
during prototyping : if it doesnt work, it doesnt matter how fast it doesnt work. Remember this.
Could you expand or elaborate on what you mean exactly?
@@rumham8124 optimizing comes later
There's also the shift in perspective, if you're looking at this as you learning new things, you never waste your time. I have canceled or discarded so many games, but none of them were a waste of my time, because I learned so much and I now know what not to do, and this is invaluable
Just wanna say if you’re offered 50k for 1/3 of your revenue, that means they expect your game will make at least 150k. That is the break even number for their offer
was just about to comment the same
Really good advice! "Vertical slice" is interchangeable with what Thomas calls a prototype here.
I would add that rapid prototyping prior to a vertical slice is even better (if you're making something mechanically focused) - make a bunch of quick-and-dirty prototypes of gameplay and test those with other developers that can look past the lack of polish. If that ugly prototype you made in a few days/a week is fun, then you know you're onto something. THEN do the vertical slice to add that level of polish Thomas talks about and consider it another milestone to gut check that what you're making is worth the effort.
These 3 steps of not wasting your time works so well for someone who is prepared for the world of indie game, Making understand his mistakes and also the growth of the developer's knowledge to develop and be more creative with their game approach of their original plan. Thanks Mr.Thomas for this time consuming video of editing worth while!
"We are not running an artist studio in Italy" as an italian I never seen an artist studio here 🤣
You have seen pizza studio or spaghetti
Mi sà che fa riferimento ai tempi antichi
Thomas: And I love failure
Me: *Finally feeling loved for once in my life*
I agree with everything you said except for using publishers as a litmus test. A lot of the time publishers don't have the time to even respond, let alone give you any useful feedback. Also, a publisher not being interested in your game doesn't necessarily mean it's not good, it could mean they simply don't THINK it'll be profitable. Publishers are known to being a little risk-averse.
Thank you for the response Thomas! Great video!
Keep up the great work, love the content as always
Wouldn't this be a vertical slice and not a prototype? I was under the impression that a prototype's unpolished but shows how well certain aspects of the gameplay or overall design work, and a vertical slice is a polished piece close to what the final game will be like. Both have value, but I think it's an important distinction to make.
Agree- A prototype is a quick sample of one or more systems. Vertical slice has all of the key components in place, but does not cover the entire breadth of the project. Good distinction to make...
cool vid. I disagree with the notion of wasting time. I only consider a game a waste of time if I do not learn from the previous iteration(s). Repeating mistakes is the waste of time.
Thank you for this! Most of my amateur years as a game dev has involved constantly putting out one prototype after the other. But you make a very good case of polishing the prototype. And "treat it as a business" is also a great advice. I want to treat my work like an acclaimed director treats his latest movie but I'm not there yet. This is a business, first and foremost, until I can easily afford making a game just for its artistic value.
Awesome video Thomas ☺ more videos like this.
Cool, I was scrolling through my subscriptions and saw this video was posted like a minute ago, haha.
Your always going to waste time at some point but if it gives you value in terms of skill or confidence or to learn something. Those are things that can lead to success. Or if they help you develop your skills. I used to think skateboard was a waste but then I realized skateboarding taught me to always improve and to don't give up until you accomplish it.
An indie game designer must know what they are aiming for when it comes to what they consider "success". Don't watch this video and feel discouraged: This is just 1 viewpoint, and is a strong one for those who are aiming for the success mentioned... but success is subjective and you have every right to feel proud of whatever you do. A few years ago I considered my game a success because Markiplier played it on his channel. Others would consider that just a small stepping stone. So my advice is to know what you want to accomplish and set a goal (big or small), and go for it. Any time you "waste" on a project is experience you didn't have before. Plus, you made something; Be proud of that.
In my experience what people in the industry call a prototype is usually something very rough with the purpose to get an indication of how (generally) the base mechanics works. What you're describing; something polished to be representative of the final game, is usually called a "vertical slice". No argument with your methods though, agree on all of it.
Incredible video, thank you :)
Interesting tip on iterating to see if a concept generates interest. Don't forget to iterate on a smaller scale as well. There was a great GDC talk about getting students competent enough to iterate quickly so they could see if their own ideas were worth taking further, and to not become emotionally invested into any one idea.
This is also how the Gameloft studio generally operates. They play around with concepts and share with the team until they are convinced one is worth building out, then they help each other to quickly finish it.
This is great feedback and advice, I’m working on a prototype for possibly a bit too long. I think that’s an interesting balance to try and recognize. Have I been working on my prototype for too long? Hhmmm
I hope to see your company as big as ubisoft, Rockstar etc in the future Thomas. It will be an honour
Been watching your videos for few years now and that's what I hope for for you. All the best 💪💪💪
Those 10 dislikes might be from artists in Italy
Bold of you to assume there are as many as ten artists in Italy.
Art studio is hell of a business actually)) great video thanks
That's a very usefull vídeo! Thank you Thomas!!!
I remember how a friend from other studio recommended me to try to make a physical prototype when I was wondering about one mechanic I made, and I was still starting so I wasnt able to make in-engine build for prototype yet.
Making even a physical prototype, was a great move forward, as it allowed me to not only test the mechanic, but test overall gameplay that was only a concept before.
Including my tests and sessions with a few of my friends, even with the prototype being really simple, it showed me that this is the game that I want to make and that others (including me, which is unusual with my creations) had fun with it.
It gave me motivation to actually move with this project forward instead of just staying in concept phase.
Tommorow I'm gonna test a new version of the prototype that will show overall look of the game, and it gave me a lot of time for actual learning using engine.
So shoutout to others: Prototyping (even in physical form) really is important!
I never realized that the most thing I fear is the waste of time. Thanks!
6:15 Greetings from the art studio ahead of my Italian family's house.
I think learning something new is not a waste of your time, it adds to your knowledge and it becomes your hobby or maybe even a job
Thanks
a lot of lot!!🙏🙏❤
Thinking too much of video game development as a "business" is the very reason why we end up not feeling interested in our own game ideas in the first place. We end up thinking too much about what sells and what fails. Solo Developers need advice on emotional consistency during development. By doing so many things at once, there's just alot of brain noise that builds up leading to burnout... If solo devs have a unique emotional connection with their project, they'll feel like they have something truly special, from there, they'd add mechanics and make it fun because they think their game truly deserves it.
I think the emotional aspect of making a game should be addressed, but in the way where you can't go by your emotions if you expect to finish a game. You don't always go to your job because you feel like it, but you have bills to pay. That is how game dev is at times.
@@Repanon00 - The ideas would flop if I was locked on the idea of my game paying bills. Takes the fun out. BUT, I figured out how to keep that passionate drive consistent and that is by saving the easier things like [designing and adding simple mechanics] for when I feel burnt out. when I add some really cool designs already in the game that I can jump back onto the computer chair to personally admire again when I feel down. Also, I figured out that if there is a vibe in your head that you always comeback to (whether it's your favorite holiday or theme) You'll find yourself rubberbanding back onto the project through the year just to celebrate and continue. Very interesting. There are alot of psychological tricks out there I gotta learn to keep me on the wheel.
Definitely not the same case with game development as an employee though. Much easier to be focused on one aspect of a game with only the specialized skillsets we have, especially when in solo game dev, there is no hourly pay, just hopes and dreams lol.
@@cybershellrev7083 Ok. Cool. I think we're coming from two different perspectives with solo dev.
@@Repanon00 - Sofar, I've run into indecision and anxiety when I thought about having to make money quick. But I'd love to know your take on the focus of finance during game dev.
@@cybershellrev7083 My comment wasn't about making money during developing your game. Though I know some people use crowdfunders and patreon. Myself, I see the money coming later hopefully through Steam and other sites when my game is finished. Passive money that comes in. Though maybe it won't.
My comments were more about with myself, if i only worked on my game when I felt inspired or happy, then my game would never get done. I'm doing it more as a business than a hobby. Though I have this underlining joy in me even on bad days like today spending 5 hours on a glitch in my save/load system and it still has an issue. lol.
I have a deadline I given myself to finish the game, though I already pushed it back twice, because some things in my personal life got busy and there were a few things I wanted to add to my game. But now, my release date is set, even if i can't put certain features in my game until later on in updates.
It's like I feel there are two types of gamers, those that enjoy the process and gameplay of a game and those who just want to beat the game by any means necessary. Neither approach is wrong, just like the different reasons people make games.
Thanks for the advice bro
I think is not a waste of time if you love what you are doing!
Loved this video 📹you are awesomeness ❤
Well dang, wish this video came out 4 years ago. I've been working on my game in my spare time all along and plan to release it on Steam this year. We'll see what happens I guess.
Hey Thomas, i'm wondering how to make art asset for games, I mean, how do you know which size do you need them to be ? there isn't a video on this anywhere, and I think it's somewhat weird. Sizing character and asset should be a core skill but a lot don't know how to.
Not a game dev (although I made some game prototypes) but an app developer.
The same rules apply.
I think the hardest thing I've had to learn was to not be afraid of sharing your idea, work and prototypes early. The chance those people will steal your idea is small and you'll learn so much.
Last summer I released like an early access version of an app which I thought would become huge.
Turned out I was wrong. But I had a blast working on it and it was my first app where I had close contact with the testers all over the world through discord.
If you create something for a living, listening to potential audiences will be incredible important. I'm doing my projects on the side of having a full-time job so it's more save for me to target smaller specific audiences.
Still I hope that one day I can make a living by creating things I love..
Thanks for sharing! Good Luck :)
@@singularityraptor4022 thank you!
Thank you 🙌
well i would like to enroll.for how long will this course be available.will you be helping me learn coding too .is there any option to reduce the price cause i am a student and i think i wont be able to afford this price point.thank you!!
Not if you’re lucky, talented, and not lazy.
Is that all it takes? 2 out of 3 ain't bad 🤔
Laziness is killing me
It's so hard to deal with it
I hate myself for being such a piece of cheese...
how about if you're just lazy?
Laziness is a choice. There are two pains in life: The pain of discipline and the pain of regret. If you really want to end laziness, go talk to old people about their regret and you'll find it hard to ever be lazy again.
When I realized this wasnt a Ryan Long sketch made me feel better
Hey thomas, youre completely right about this. I locked myself away for 3 months making a multiplayer card game and by the time i showed it to my friends i realized it was a boring game. getting feedback is key for game dev, you spend less time remaking big mechanics
I went to school for game design and this one video gave me the answer to a question I never knew I needed to ask. "What are publishers for?" Always had the impression a publisher wasn't required but I see how helpful it is.
I don't know if that was just a random jab at publishers in general (if it was just forget what follows xD) but if they are a good indicator for indie devs, their role is more to produce bigger or better marketed "products". Making a double or triple A with a small team without financial support is hard af and in most cases with this kind of projects, a publisher is required.
A new thomas brush video? Ok, I need a blanket and a cuppa tea
Thank you for this good video.I earned only 3 dollar in my indie game for 1 month but i'm still developing new games. I hope one day i will be earn too much money and quit my PHD education. I am 29 years old and I just realized that I don't want to be a professor. :) Thank you so much for all your motivational videos.
great advice
Talking, being well know by others those the secret to being a good entrepreneur. It's not having the best game, but being the best known. Like Thomas Brush
Out of pure curiosity, would anyone want to play a Monster Hunter game with Gundams and Zoids, except your parts can break and you'll need to scavenge other lesser robots for parts/weapons to finish hunting the thing you're after? The first half seems like a yes, but scavenging parts seems like something that's only good in my head.
3 months? Going on 10 years here
You are awesome buddy a nice combination of purist and an entrepreneur
Right bro
👍
best video you've ever made. seriously
Me: clicking on a TB video
YT: Here’s an ad for TB’s channel lol
Can I ask what the 15 minute polished demo would be like? Would it have like the menu screens/settings etc or would it just jump into a point in the gameplay? I'm working on a roguelike and obviously the game play is the main thing but the menus/intro etc would take so much time. Can anyone breakdown what this 15min demo would be like?
The Indie game dream is a bit like playing the lottery... even if you make a "brilliant" (subjective) game, there's still very much a chance that no-one will play it and it will flop, simply due to the fact that it gets drowned out in a veritable sea of Indie games. But hey, don't take my advice... I don't make games for a living. 😂
I just got an ad of you advertising making games on this video lol
Thomas, Do you think a fully fleshed out digital E3 floor you could traverse with your mii characters, name icon overhead as in game would be possible for Nintendo? You could experience e3 online with a friend or friends as in animal crossing. The video game industry has the remedy to current limitations with the worlds we visit and interact with daily. I agree with you in regards to game dev, development of any ideas. Success requires you to not fall in love with all ideas.
1:10 next question - how does one recycle time?
Bro after creating an app there is always an marketing Mountain and
I can't cross that it's too high
Thomas what are your thoughts on unreal engine? I love unity, but the classes I have taken recently are all unreal. I see a lot of unity content, but didn’t know if you have used any other engine. Unity is great for 2D, but I am trying to complete a 3D game. Unreal seems to be the move but I have recently tuned into a lot of your videos, and I was hoping you could drop a vid on why you chose unity overall. Also to see if you were going to take a dip into 3D space commercially or not.
I'm anxious and depressed
You just have to look back at people that have been successful while making games and copy their ideas and if you can, just find a way to improve those ideas and make something greater.
Well it isn't bad because you are being good at it after all
This is some very good advice.
I love when you make vids like this. Like one of the videos I send to people more than anything to 'answer' a question they have is the one about 'don't follow your dreams its a scam' because it sums up a lot of stuff that people don't know how to google or ask about.
5:40 no. The math there says they think it's going to make at least $150,000, because they recoup their $50k off 30%
I would still highly recommend periods of just working on your own fun project(s), purely fueled by passion (In periods you can financially survive it). You learn so much from them. I never gave a crap about design patterns until I saw a real use of them in my pet project. If the project wasn't purely based on passion I would probably spend less time on learning to implement them because I wanted to finish something. Also a prototype is a vastly different thing than a 20 min. polished demo but I get what you mean. 🙂. Thanks for the inspirational video's.
Currently I've been working on a solo project, a mediocre prototype to show the team I want to work with. I made it on a very basic online program and would probably transfer it to something more professional once I have my team
It feels like I'm wasting my time... thoughts?
You said it yourself, you're working on a "mediocre" prototype! How can you even expect to build up a team by showing your own work that you consider mediocre?
First you need to work hard to make something really great that you love, THEN you can show it to others.
I love this video, thanks man. I also enjoy the editing, but it's a bit too much. That may just be a personal preference though.
Great answer, too many times i've got startup or indie hobbyist ask me to try their game and give feedback. I'm always really honest with them that i'm not their mom and will give constructive criticism, but i call a cat a cat ... so many of them are unable to receive this comments that they are indeed losing their time on a project no one will play ...
The same principles apply on an asset basis, stop beating a dead horse and care for your work, but learn to let go also. So many students are completely demolished when their work get clipped from a game, when it has nothing to do with the actual work but the bigger picture of a project is always flexible and changes over time.
A question that kept popping into my head while watching this was:
What avenues would be good for asking for feedback on your prototype, especially for the first time?
I see people post videos of their game demos all the time on reddit, but feedback rarely ever goes beyond "looks great!" or random questions about what the dev is hoping to add to the game. Sometimes people get annoyed when frequent updates are posted, which, as someone who values frequent constructive feedback, is disheartening to see.
Posting a prototype that you've worked on from scratch for the first time always seems so daunting since no one has had any idea of what you've been working on, or even who you are, so it always feels like your effort will just be lost in the constant flood of content.
I understand twitter or specialty subreddits would be most ideal, but again, if no one even knows who I am, it just feels like my work would disappear time and again.
another great video
Gonna work on getting my prototype out to real people this year 👍🏻 before building too much of my game, I'd like to pitch the initial concept with what'll be the two core mirrored worlds, before even getting more into the game. Best case, people love it and are interested! Worst case, lack-luster interest and I can decide to tweak or pivot 👏🏻
I'm actually thinking this right now. what if
thnx thomas
Thomas, I enrolled this morning. We're going to go on this journey together and make this happen! I'm going to publish a game this year and go full time game dev!
same here, good luck to us and all of thomas' students!! every game dev actually....! rofl
How I deal with it tell myself it doesn't matter if nobody else plays it because I will enjoy making it and playing it. ( btw I make games so I can play them but occasionally let my friends and people on discord play it)
Im in school rn but but after my studies im gonna start my work on becoming a game dev
rn im just gonna focus on my studies while watching tons of yt vids abt what to do as a game dev
Good luck with your videogame dev studies!
out of all the languages in the world and he decides to speak facts
Im relearning coding where could I relearn C# ?
I have a question Thomas you might not see this but what is the benefits of getting a publisher instead of self publishing?
Have you ever showed someone your game for their opinion and they just stole it or pieces from it for their game?
Love the Assassin's creed SFX, lmao.
If you start enjoying making games.
It will be a success, no matter if anyone plays it.
Just like solving a rubik's cube.
And when you're good enough.
Make something that might be profitable.
For me it's just a fun hobby. Not everything we do has to be for money.
I loved your response
5:40 if they offer 50,000 for 30% revenue they expect the game to br worth a little over 150,000. That's when they break even in profits on the buy.
@@robertmonfera9552 I agree, my evaluation was an understatement. Mr.brush seems to think profits come for them after 50,000 tho.
Hello Thomad, your course is 230$. I am from Turkey and local currency it is 1$=8turkish liras. This means the course is about 2000turkish liras. And it is a one month house rent. Maybe you may consider a local price. Thank you.
Wasted time is not wasted if you learned something from it. Y’all know?
Game developing is just like business like u invest the money and time but in game dev is u have to invest time knowledge of game dev and even budget for publish ... U have to take risk for becoming successful in life . Without risk u will be in fear always it's just 3 months or more u haven't wasted whole life
bro i need the song in the background
do u know any good game publishers