Leadership Roulette in the LDS Church
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- Опубліковано 15 вер 2024
- See past Sunday Musings: SundayMusings.org
When one's eternal salvation hinges on the unique personality, biases, and leadership style of a local leader, for some this becomes a costly game of leadership roulette. Can the system be improved?
After listening to you I have decided that I must be terribly naive. I am age 64 and have been active my whole life. I have lived in 3 different states in the USA, both branches and wards. All of my Bishops have been human and men. I believe they have done their very best. They are given an impossible task. And they do it. All are overworked and under paid. Some I have truly enjoyed, but some have been real dumb heads. But even the stupid ones have taught me something, if not tolerance. They are in that postion for their growth. It is up to me to do my best in my own realm of influence.
The bishop we have now is probably the worst one I have ever had. I told my friend that I will just have to keep my mouth closed for the next 5 years. But when I went into my temple recommend interview, the Spirit strongly confirmed to me that he carries the keys of his leadership calling. 14 short questions of yes , no answers, a 5 minute interview, and I walked out of that room with a new found faith and conviction that this is God's kingdom. We are a church of imperfect people and policies, but we are incredibly blessed to be a part of such a great organization. There is no other church like it on earth.
Point taken, but your current Dumb Head Bishop (who is experiencing "personal growth") has authority over you which can wreck your life. Do you "sustain" your dumb head bishop? Or do you skip Temple Attendance for the next 5 years, while he does this "personal growth", and the Dumb Head is eventually replaced by someone worthy of your sustain ... so you can renew your Temple Recommend.
When I was 24 in the early 2000s, I went to my bishop to request a temple recommend so I could be endowed. The bishop told me, "We don't usually let girls go to the temple unless they are getting married or going on a mission. Girls usually get married within six months, anyway, so you should just wait." I tried two more times over the next year, and I also spoke to the stake president and was told the same thing. The RS president told me that as long as I was in that stake I wouldn't be allowed to go to the temple, and she was right! It shook my testimony. I'm still active in the gospel, but I didn't go to the temple until I was 30. I'm very glad that the general handbook is publicly available and easily accessible now. That bishop and stake president witheld the blessings of the temple from me for no justifiable reason, and I don't know if 21 years later that I've fully forgiven them 🤷♀️
Hope you can forgive them. Not doing so does no good.
Extending grace is a beautiful thing, especially considering so much is extended to each of us.
@@dtbrewer I just hope that some day they understand how their unrighteous dominion affected people's lives.
I’m so sorry this happened to you. My daughter was told the same thing by her bishop and stake president in her student ward. To get around it she asked her home ward bishop while she was home for Thanksgiving. She had her temple recommend in her hand within a few days. Definitely leadership roulette.
I was a branch president on my mission to branch of 12 active members. 0 training. I did my best but looking back I know there were some situations I didn’t handle correctly. It’s helped me give grace to other leaders I’ve had since then and before.
So, that means we should not take our Church Leaders seriously ... because in the future they will recognize how poorly they acted.
@@kevinparkin3322 I’m sure 100% of us act poorly sometimes
@@kevinparkin3322 maybe to an extent but you should understand they are volunteers. The district president over that branch was basically a recent convert as were all of his counselors.
The church should provide better training but even if they do there will still be mistakes and human error.
The problem lies within the Church's definition of apostasy which is very broad. Here is the policy:
"As used here, apostasy refers to a member engaging in any of the following:
Repeatedly acting in clear and deliberate public opposition to the Church, its doctrine, its policies, or its leaders
Persisting in teaching as Church doctrine what is not Church doctrine after being corrected by the bishop or stake president"
I've had people use this policy language saying I was an apostate because I disagreed with President Nelson when he said the jab was safe and said it was a literal Godsend. However, disagreeing is not the same as opposition. Opposing is a verb meaning it's something you do. Having a disagreement or different opinion with a leader is not opposing them. There are leaders in the church that disagree with each other. When the quorum of the 12 disagree with each other are they in apostasy?
@@zebiraross exactly...and its not speaking evil of the lords annointed cause its not slander...nelson was wrong and used his power as a person in a church posiyion to speak with authority and it was not of God. Not a godsend..not safe and seriously people need to realize a real prophet wouldnt sound like fauchi and bill gates 😑...
pissed me off so much when people kept comparing nelson and the jab to moses and the bronze serpant...when nelson didnt save anybody and basically told people to go get bit and die feom the serpants...not ask them to look up with faith and be saved from a dangerous situation with evil out to kill them
I am a sincere individual who has studied the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator. It's not fluff. It is scientifically based. People have different personalities, preferences, etc and they operate in daily life with these preferences without knowledge whatsoever. They are who they are. When any dispute in work, school, home, church I am able to understand each person's personality and come to expect how they will act or react. It really helps to understad Personality Type, The book Please Understand Me , I highly recommend. Misunderstandings usually come not from anger, malace, uneducation, bias but personality type. I roll with the leadership, appreciate their efforts and unless it really touches on my value system, I leave it alone. And I pray for them. Hope this helps. I think Connor has the personality type which does not take anything at face value. He wants to understad how, why, why not and this is why I can watch and litsen without worry for him or my testimony if we disagree. He is using his agency and expressing his presonality type in the best way he can.
Being a bishop is the worst calling in the church Period! Anyone who seeks that calling, I would be suspicious of.
Hey Connor, I used to be a dermatology cancer nurse. Please get your nose looked at. Even if you think it's just a sore. It looks fast growing and may be a squamous cell carcinoma. The horrible thing about the nose is the tissue doesn't move around alot and is harder to repair. Don't wait!
That was really thoughtful of you.
I’ve had experience with frankincense essential oil applied twice a day, to remove cancerous growths on an individual. It was pretty cool!
Dang. Connor has specialists trying to help him.
Ha, thanks - it's just a fleck of skin I didn't notice until after. As you'll see on next week's (already recorded) video, it's not there. :)
@cboyack hope the results are good my friend. Stay strong 💪 🤘 😆 🤣
#boyackstrong
Yet, most would hate if every decision a bishop could possibly make was dictated centrally.
You salvation isn’t dependent on a church leader.
One does not need Russell Nelson or any other church leader to be saved. Christ alone is the keeper of the gate, and He “employeth no servant there.”
maybe a little bit.
No mortal can affect your relationship with Deity.
The so-called ‘Court of Love’ could excommunicate you from them, but not from God. 😊
leaders can ruin your church life and hinder your salvation. I have a bro in law who kept trying to get active again and wasnt living in sin anynore but he got stonewalled when he met with his bishop because even though the bishop could see he was being good and repentant and wanting to move on the stake pres who hadnt liked him since he was a kid and qlso had seen some other in law problems decided to punish my bro in law by telling the bishop not to let him get active.
Bro had to move outta state and quickly got active...became a elder, got endowed and then a ward mission leader (he hadnt served a mission and never been endowned)
that stake pres held him back.
I know others who wetent sinning but got stuck with leaders who just didnt like them and made life hell
@wufflerdance1905 That's a good example of how church leaders can ruin your church life, but not your salvation.
You salvation is wholly, completely, singularly, entirely, and 100% dependent on Jesus Christ. That's it. If someone is growing closer to Him, there is nothing that anyone from the church can do to hinder that; only the individual can hinder themselves from following Christ.
It's really nice to be part of a group, though, especially if most of that group seems to also be following Christ. So I'm glad your brother-in-law was able to find acceptance elsewhere, and I wish he didn't have to move away to find it, but that still has no bearing on his relationship with Christ.
Just remember, if you are following Jesus, then no unhallowed hand can stop you from progressing.
Interesting topic. I’m fortunate to have always had high quality bishops. During covid I stopped wearing a mask to church and I could tell some were unhappy, most didn’t care but still wore it and some told me I was doing the right thing. My bishop who is also a friend didnt care but one of the counselors did even that brother wasn’t going to let it stand in the way of me coming to church.
This hits at something that most of us who are very independently minded have noticed about the church: we’re way too safe, timid and nice. You’re weird if you don’t go along with popular narratives or purely cultural norms. This is an outgrowth of a faith that had to overcome so much to integrate into American society that what was lost was a lot of curiosity and independent thinking to knowing and following Gods spirit.
God can work through anyone which is why I think Porter Rockwell is such a legend in our history. But working through anyone means on the fringes there’s going to be problems.
9 1 24/1615
So well put.
My epistle is not the only such in Church. Seems if we dont have a strong developing sense of discernment, such is going to scatter good people without justification...
Until the present one, every Bishop in my assigned ward has been reasonable, trying, and I think pretty good.
This man. I think he's been in for about 3 years-- redrawn boundaries, so...
I hav and will refuse to speak in Sacrament mtg while he's in office. A few Sundays ago a terrific young woman spoke about whatever the "assigned" topic was. I know her well. She's worked to teach and share. Ahh, but then she mentioned that her husband was a "good man", that is he was a good hardworking provider, kind, always there to help, initiate all things needful, and fun, blah, blah. Her loving opinion and it well fit the context of the subject.
Well. Behold and lo, the Bishop then stood up and announced that 'part of (his) responsibility as a Bishop' was to ensure no "false doctrine" was taught from the pulpit. OMH.
He made no reference to the theme of her talk, but that she had said her husband was a "good man." Astonishingly the Bshp pronounced no man can be good... in the sight of G'd as all are so flawed.....
I went to both the wife and husband afterwards... They were shocked. I was stunned, and thankfully several others were also.
The heart stomping cringe came from the couple's oldest son, about 9, who asked his Mom that afternoon: "Mom, why did the Bishop say Dad wasn't a good man"?
This Bishop may have been "called", or it was what seems to be a pattern of it just being his turn, but I'll not ever put myself in his line of fire.😮
@@l7846 Wow-just wow. How anyone could publicly-from the pulpit-critique someone else’s talk they just kindly gave is wild…ESPECIALLY criticizing their (good) opinion of their spouse, that’s WAY beyond me (and the norm I’m sure).
I hope this man was informed that he was very wrong to do so.
I feel bad for the couple and their family.
Wow-
Porter Rockwell was a criminal at best.
@@l7846That is crazy. I've had some bishops that were a bit abrasive, but I'm pretty sure they would've never done anything like that!
@@l7846we have all dealt with this brand of BS in the church. Whether it was when we were growing up or as adults. I think there will be hell to pay for some who used their “power” to punish, degrade, minimize, or intentionally hurt others. It is very difficult to watch certain members who have wrongfully used their callings to hurt others. I watched a family member be broken by such a man who has risen to a regional representative. I understand that people grow and learn from mistakes, the repentance process is for all. But part of repentance is making things right with the harmed person. I know that has never been done and it’s too late. I just have to shake my head and trust that the Lord will make it right. Oh one more thing, not tell the so and so off if I ever lay eyes on him again!!!
Church Leadership Roulette is real, along with 1) To Which Parents You Are Born Roulette 2) In Which Century You Are Born Roulette 3) With Which Chromosomes You Are Born Roulette 4) Into Which Society You Are Born Roulette 5) Who Lives Next Door To You Roulette 6) Whether A Drunk Driver Kills You Roulette 7) And A Bunch More Risks Of Being Human Roulette.
On Thanksgiving Day in 1978, my Geneva Switzerland Mission President ordered a Mission Wide Fast - ostensibly to demonstrate to the Lord our "dedication" to The Work. On the same day, my friend's Paris France Mission Presdent ordered a Mission Wide Softball Game and Bar-b-que.
Not sure what the fast and BBQ have to do with each other. They were 2 different places. Just because a family might have a special fast for them doesn't mean I can't fire up the grill. Sorry, not sure of your point
@@peckandabushel3065My point is glaringly obvious: my Church Leader ordered a Thanksgiving Day fast on the same day that my friend's Church Leader ordered Thanksgiving Day Bar-b-que. His Roulette Leader is more fun than my Roulette Leader.
It’s what happens under the two prevailing circumstances in the church: 1. Revelation is NOT a part of “calling” church leaders. 2. Leaders called operate under the false pretense that they were called because they know what’s what. The handbooks are for those less righteous and knowledgeable.
I think leadership roulette is both a feature and a bug. It's good because it's not correlated. It's bad because sometimes you get a really bad apple. It's really good when you have someone that leans upon their Priesthood and access to the heavens instead of the handbook.
I have neighbors who moved here because their former Stake President lost his patience and cool over believing this guy's crazy ex-wife's accusations about abuse and started screaming at them in his office and attacking him with those allegations. He said it was an awful experience and they left calling him an a-hole and to "f-off". He said it was so bad and SP was not willing to reason and reinstate his full fellowship in the Church so they moved here to try and get things resolved. The roulette is real in difficult situations
Member records are marked “contact previous bishop” as they transfer to the new ward stake etc.
@@3blenders
!😮
Where is “here”?
I appreciate that you offer solutions instead of just problems
I have bishop who is humble and young! He is a veteran and doesn't hold the high power and pay jobs! But, he is the most real, understanding, and Christ center bishop that I ever have. He doesn't give flowery talks, but all centered on Christ when he talks. He also able to think for himself! I also have bishops and stake presidents who only care their friends who are in the same financial status. Some leaders think they have power over you! I also tell myself and my family that the leaders are imperfect human beings and just the tools to help us to get close to God. I don't have to listen to everything they said and think that i have to be strict obedient to whatever they say! After all, we don't have legal contracts with them and we don't work for them. They are not responsible for our own salvations!
This is totally real. I was staunchly anti mask and prick. Bishop said I couldn't come to church unless I followed along. He relented after some time. First testimony meeting I got back I got up and spoke about how the church was under condemnation. My Bishop told me never to speak again in church. I did and had my "court of love".
My stake president gave me a choice. I could be exed or promise to never speak again and be disfellowshipped.
I asked my Bishop and Stake President to discuss my concerns. They both flatly refused.
Without a doubt, different leaders would have handled my situation better.
the church under condemnation…? Yes. What you are of course going through afterwards must be agonizing- I am sorry and feel with you. Don’t give up the Book of Mormon truth, please. your day of vindication is coming.
@@Telavian glad you escaped Mormonism ❤️ but hope you can find Jesus. I’d recommend a good non-denominational Christian church nearby
The Holy Church of God is polluted!
Most members don’t know that the scripture says, “… your churches, yea, even EVERY ONE, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.
37 For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.
38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God?”
And “leaders of churches and teachers shall rise in the pride of their hearts,”
Wow. Yet they let trans people get up there and go on and on about changing their sex, in mixed company.
The church fell down on its constitutionality on that one and I didn't take it well
Eternal destination isn’t dependent on your church leader; but your church membership certainly can be. People should be clear on the distinction between the two very different things.
Who says the church is polluted?
I am quoting the scriptures in the Book of Mormon:
“leaders of churches and teachers shall rise in the pride of their hearts,”
“Why have ye transfigured the holy word of God, that ye might bring damnation upon your souls?”
“your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.”
“37 For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.
38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God?”
Q?: “which is the holy church of God”
Maybe the bishop is called for his growth not yours. We need to be merciful to our leadership. Learn not to be offended. You maybe called to forgive like I was in my experience with my stake President. I grew learning to forgive. My willingness to be humble touched his heart and eventually I got an apology. There is no such thing as a perfect human. God’s church his rules.
Easy to say... unless any of the absurd travesty roll call here in comments happens to you.
Mortality is enough w/o having to guide the guy still using training wheels.
I have read several of the comments, supportive, semi-supportive, not-supportive of prior bishoprics. Having lost the Church Leadership Roulette game myself, several times since 1997, my answer to the question "Do you sustain your Church leaders?" is obviously No. Their decisions, advice and "council" are often ... ummmmm ... misguided at best and sometimes wrong. Bishops and Stake Presidents must qualify for the sustaining support of their members; many do not qualify.
The good news is Jesus Christ has power to redeem, rectify, and compensate. Do we really think Helmuth Hubener was under condemnation because his Branch President was out of line? There is training for Bishops. My own benchmark is always err on the side of mercy, and hope the Lord will do the same with me.
I mean if a person can’t go to the temple because they are drinking coffee that’s on them not the bishop. I say this as someone who doesn’t follow the wow, blaming the bishop for that is a lack of accountability
@@Cws7187 how about not being allowed to go to the temple even with a recommend because ya wont wear a mask/face diaper?
what about not being able to have a calling anymore because leadership agree being unjabbed is dangerous...
what about not being able to have a reccomend renewed because you give tithing elsewhere and not the church after finding out the church gives money to the evil UN and NAACP who can use it for abortions and arent good groups anyway....
what about not having a reccomend renewed because leadership feel you dont sustain the prophet if you didnt take the jab or mask?
these thinga have happened to our family and we hadnt stopped beleiving the gospel or suddenly sinning in a new way or going off the deep end...these all happened in the last 4 years
If only leaders were chosen by any other means than who is socially connected with existing leaders. Rarely are leaders picked a surprise.
I can see why this would be a problem if you think your eternal salvation is really in the hands of these men. However if you are built upon the rock, the only thing that will matter to you is if you “know Him”. Really this is all just a social game in a system based on priestcraft.
Been following you and others who woke up for awhile Rebekah. Just wanted to say thank you for sharing an amazing testimony of our Savior and Redeemer.
What the Lord is doing among those who will hear and follow is amazing. My life has truly changed. I know my Savior lives. I know He loves me. He wants me to follow Him and live like Him. I know the Book of Mormon is the also the word of God. Truly understanding it's contents has changed my life as well.
I second Rebekah's testimony that we are to seek our Savior Jesus Christ. Let no one come between that special relationship. He truly has the power to redeem us from our fallen nature. He is calling His people. He's real. His works are being accomplished behind the scenes. He is coming and I rejoice in that knowledge. Don't know when, but He is coming. He is asking us to live for Zion TODAY. All is not well. But through listening to Him and loving all people selflessly will indeed get us closer to Zion than anything else.
What we have in the United States that helps a lot is the Bill of Rights. We should come up with a Bill of Rights for members. Otherwise, even appeals wouldn't work. One reason would be, there is nothing saying "innocent until proven guilty" in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. If a person is accused and the leadership believes the accusers and wishes for the person to have membership withdrawn, then the person doesn't get a chance to go to anything remotely similar to a court of law with a jury of their peers and have the right to someone like an attorney. For example, a missionary I know was about to be sent home, not even knowing why, because they were accused of something. The parent got the mission president to tell them what their missionary was being accused of and discussed it with the missionary. The missionary immediately was shocked and felt horrid. Then they put up a defense and told their story from their perspective. Then the missionary was allowed to stay for a little while. However, the mission president continually pressured the missionary until the missionary caved and decided it was God's will that they go home to serve as a service missionary. Wondering why there are so many service missionaries? Mission President Leadership Roulette can do that. Whereas some of them encourage and help missionaries to stay, others have their preferred personality types of missionaries. If the personality of a missionary rubs a president wrong, out with the missionary. It's terribly sad. With bishops and stake presidents, a bill of rights similar to that in the United States Constutution would help members to defend themselves. It would give the members (who have no power) some power and authority with which to put up a defense. But no such thing exists in The Church, which makes it so the leadership can exercise unrighteous dominion. This has reduced the numbers of members in this church. Why do we work so hard at missionary work and kick people out, who want to stay in? It boggles my mind. Even a freedom of speech and of the press as a member, and a right to have a redress of grievances (from U.S. Bill of Rights #1) would be helpful! As members, we have no say in things. We have no say in the rules. The leaders say this is because it comes from God. I don't believe all of it comes from God. I think some of it comes from humans who decide things.
I get your point, but you seem to take a fundamentalist approach on this. If I have a bishop that abuses their authority and does not issue me a temple recommend when I should receive one, it won’t impact my salvation at all. If a bishop demands a member not partake of the sacrament, and it’s an unnecessary requirement, I will not be disadvantage by not partaking of it for a period. God is above all this.
It is forced upon them because for those who believe they have to go to the temple in order to be saved they will do whatever they have to do to get there. I wish people would read the Book of Mormon with an open heart and mind. The church is not in sink with the Book of Mormon.
I was asked in my first interview after I joined the church at 25 years old, specifically if I masturbated. I was pretty shocked but I answered honestly, I said “absolutely“. My bishop about fell out of his chair, then he went into his explanation of “self abuse“, etc. I told him I’ve done it since I was a little girl and that I don’t believe there’s anything wrong with it. He told me I was not to take the sacrament for the next 60 days and that we were to meet twice a week to discuss my “progress“. I told him I was not an immoral person, that I had only had sex with one person in my life, my husband, that self stimulation helped me experience pleasure and that masturbation was not one of the topics in the missionary discussions, nor was it talked about in my baptismal interview.
I decided to talk to a different bishop, just to get his opinion. The man I talk to is a certified therapist and relationship professional. He told me he never asks for sexual details in interviews, but if the subject of sexuality comes up, he gives positive reassurance that sexuality is a good thing, and that we should do all we can to experience pleasure within our marriage relationship. He said he’s had plenty of people, especially women come to him, feeling guilt and shame for masturbating. He tells them it’s something they don’t need to talk about, he assures them it’s a natural process to eliminate sexual tension and it’s nothing to be ashamed of. He also said that my sexual relationship is probably much more satisfying, because I am much more aware of my body and my sexual responses.
He commended me for my willingness to fully understand and appreciate my sexuality.
One Bishop makes me feel like a total misfit and a pervert, tells me I can’t renew my baptismal covenants for 60 days and that he and I have to rehash my horrible “self abuse problem“ twice a week for the next two months.
The other bishop pats me on the back and tells me basically “good job girl“.
Bishop roulette is a very real and painful thing…
You’re entitled to your opinion, but I disagree and I don’t believe it’s generally promoted the way you said the second Bishop did. Although I don’t believe it’s a HUGE, life altering sin, it can become such for many people-usually in the context of a p0rn addiction, and isn’t something to be encouraged.
There’s nothing wrong with sexu@lity, it’s ‘normal’ in that people are created as sexu@l beings, (for the purpose of procreation,) but if it’s the focus of your life it’s a wrong focus that almost always leads to problems in personal, intimate relationships…and our relationships with other human beings IS the right focus (and our purpose). Between husband and wife its expression can be sublime.
Put simply, self-‘love’ isn’t really very loving and can get in the way of loving others.
@@doreenb.8928 Very well said.
@@doreenb.8928 Sexuality is like a piano. God gives you a piano and expects you to learn how to make beautiful music. If you are going to depend completely on another person to play your piano for you, you are certainly going to be disappointed. Learning to read music, learning how to sit properly, learning how to play your piano is a very beautiful and satisfying thing.
It’s a proven fact that the buildup of sexual tension and sexual frustration is usually what leads to immorality. Self stimulation only involves one person therefore it is not a sin to personally eliminate sexual tension before it becomes a problem.
You are also very wrong to assume that self pleasure is synonymous with p0rn. Your assumption is very inaccurate.
I am comfortable with my body, I am comfortable with my sexuality, and my sexual relationship with my husband is something that most couples only wish they could experience.
Why would anyone have a core belief that it’s OK for someone else to stimulate certain areas of my body but that somehow it’s wrong for me to derive pleasure from those same areas myself? It makes no sense at all.
More couples would have a much more satisfying sexual relationship if they were comfortable with the sexual parts of their bodies instead of being ashamed and embarrassed by them.
I find leadership roulette to be very real. I have had Bishops think they know what is best for my children....better than my wife and I. I have had their decisions lead my children out of the church as who they 'thought' should be our child's friend rated her and ended up in federal prison.
I have had leaders think and do things that are despicable and I have had very good and happy leaders for me and my family.
I also find it very difficult to believe a 10 minute interview is enough to know a person and that they should be in charge, but if the choice goes bad we just blame the Holy Ghost. You know God is in charge.
We also are free to choose...even the leaders are free to choose life and salvation and Jesus or endless destruction and misery. God won't choose for them.
I can totally relate!! So many leaders who believed they knew what was best for our children.🤦🏼♀️
Amen! But so sorry your family had to go through this. I was called into see the Bishop but with no witnesses and he actually said he would kill me if I didn't stop talking with my friends from church about my past I'm my home. I'm a satanic ritual survivor. I needed support. At church he would give me such hateful threatening looks. He still does now but a lot less. We have a wonderful bishop. Do I tell someone this? I have no proof and I'm sure he'll just deny it. I'm pretty sure now the meeting should have been supervised. It was on a Wed night after every one in the church had left besides me and him. He had told me to stay until then. Bring an satanic ritual abuse stinky I was very used to OBEYING authority so I did as he said. There was no one else in the church he grabbed my arm, hurt me, and screamed at me that he would kill me! Oh my so scary.
There are those Leaders that have the spirit of Jesus Christ and are guided by the Holy Ghost... Then there are the fake it til you make it or break it crowd. There are apostles that fall into this same category.
So you don't believe that the president of the church can never leave the church astray?
I hope you don't believe that; I certainly don't.
@@jasonsellers56are prophets and apostles fallible or infallible?
@@jasonsellers56 there is only 1 quote saying prophets will never lead the church astray and wasnt gospel based because we have proof it does in fact happen....
also john in revelations talks about the elect being deceived and a prophet becoming confused/deceived aka false and supporting the anti christ new world order agenda .....and here we are exactly as foretold. Nelson doeent have the mantle of a true prophet....he has gone agqinst multiple prophets and the gospel and scriptures several times even if ya ignore covid, jabs and masks he has screwed up big time and a lot of members feel the difference...the light isnt there in his eyes...he has been caught lying telling huge stories even in church talks...the story of the plane he nearly died on..fake...the story of how he met his second wofe totally fake and lied about...
he had everybody do a social media fast as he buried the story and paid off lawsuits so it never went to court of the alledged story of daughter and won in law holding pedo touching parties for years with multiple people involved
Haha. Roulette
@jasonsellers56 the president of the church is no different. You have living prophets that basically call on old president's as false. The lds faith is always a step behind where they try to be. Always will be.
Just learned your opinion on BY yes if you promote the section 132 isn’t scripture publicly, I wouldn’t call you into leadership avoid you holding certain callings.
What I have realized as I have gotten older is that the choices that we make truly do have consequences, for not just ourselves but every person around us. We may not actually see the consequences right away or we may not even know that they have occurred. So we should choose wisely; because the choices that we make have a ripple effect on ourselves and everyone around us. I don’t doubt that there are bad apples in our church; but I also think there’s bad apples everywhere outside of the church. Just as I feel like there are good ones too. My faith has always been in God and Jesus it has never been with the people I go to church with. Some people have a really hard time separating those two. And they allow themselves to be so rattled that they lose their faith because of it. Which ultimately is self-destruction. So we should not allow what other people choose to do or not do; or what they say or don’t say to destroy our faith in God and his church.
"I don’t doubt that there are bad apples in our church; but I also think there’s bad apples everywhere outside of the church. Just as I feel like there are good ones too."
When the church is no different from the world, what does that tell you?
"...to destroy our faith in God and his church."
I was with you until the last 3 words. Don't have faith in the church. That's idolatry. Destroy that faith and throw it away as fast as you can!
I completely agree with what you said before that, though.
Maybe, leadership is part of the vetting and educational process and is necessary for growth. People have the choice to step up or not, and sometimes they may not become perfect leaders on instant. It's easy to demand perfection from others.
Why should a Bishop, Stake President or anyone have a say about one's Eternal Journey? Ultimately, this Condition is to be determined at the time of Judgment wth Jesus.
Years ago, it was brought to my attention that someone had made mention to Joseph just prior to establishing the Church, two points of thought.
One, that it may not be a good idea to ask Government to even allow God to have Church or to do anything.
It's kind of like what we see with the need for a Government Marriage License ( Government permission to visit be with God ) to be eternally married.
Two, that creating a Membership condition of the Church would create Hierarchies amongst the people and therefore, increase the possibilities of Individuals Exercising acts of Unrighteous Dominion.
🤔
After considering what I had heard, I realized that just having the Priesthood without Membership would work just as well. I mean, we could still keep records of Baptisms, Priesthood Ordinations and any other pertinent events worthy of being recorded.
Without Membership, excommunication would not be a Consideration.
I realize, it still would not create a problem free Condition, but it would minimize acts of Unrighteous Dominion by hierarchical Individuals.
At this writing, I do not recall anything in the scriptures regarding cancelable Memberships. Otherwise, Membership in the ancient Church was simply based on Voluntarily getting Baptised & becoming a Disciple of Christ.
Another Interesting thought::
There was a sister in my Ward who desired Baptism but not Membership.
Unfortunately, Church Membership was determined to be more Important than the Sister's Eternal Salvation 🤔
I didn't realize church leaders were selected because of their leadership talent...whatever that is. Relish the thought of interacting with my church leaders exclusively via zoom.
A friend of mine once said of being a bishop... "Called by revelation... Released by calander date".
Released Bishops, like released missionaries often struggle.
But yeah on the topic, I feel ya.
End Mormon Feudalism!!! Why are people assigned to a boundary? The Bishops have learned now for ages to behave any way they please and there is very little consequences for their behavior. If people were free to go anywhere they please corporate headquarters can see which bishops are well behaved and who are problems.
In the singles wards we called it Bishop Shopping. One bishop was known for making people wait a year if messed up a bit and another was known to slap wrists and so you'd see couples thinking about marriage, start moving their records around to avoid Public appearances of having to wait .
Speaking of budgeting, me and my sister used to call are young women actives 5 second, 5 cent projects. Because it seemed that it took are leaders five seconds to think it up and five cents to pay for it. We were always told that there was never enough money in the budget to do anything. While the young men were always leaving to do all sorts of really fun activities, like go karting and camping. While the young women primarily just stayed in the church classrooms and maybe did like art projects or cooking classes or whatever. Which it was fun at times; but it also would’ve been nice to be able to do go-karting like the young men got to do.
This makes me wonder about confessionals and that whole process.
Well said. Unfortunately, from everything I’ve heard, the quorum of the 12 (15), don’t agree on most of these issues, some of them drastically. That is the root of the problem, so none of your ideas, no matter how charitable and compassionate can gain traction, let alone momentum. Your fairness and empathy is admirable and refreshing. I hope, at least, we can all love one another.
Thank you Thank you Thank you!
It’s problem for sure and can do serious damage!!!
My worst experience was with a member of the 70 back in the 90s. It was so over the top…. I later learned he was a member of skull and bones and owl and key just like Pres Nelson.
Just makes me wonder how many are one way over the pulpit and completely different behind closed doors.
I give grace where deserved because I get that they’re human, but how many souls have left the church because of A hole leadership? Too many I’m sure
… and yet the Church is still true as ever!!! Faith in Christ not arm of flesh.
If Church Courts operated the way they should, this wouldn't be a problem (Doctrine & Covenants section 102). Many current church courts do not even consult the accused, let alone assign high councilors to defend the accused (which inherently REQUIRES that the accused's side is told). Often, a formal church court isn't even used to hear the concerns and local leaders act unilaterally without anything to back it up other than their "feelings." Then there are people like me. There is no formal accusation made or formal record kept, but it is passed on from one bishop to the next that I don't get to hold a calling of any real usefulness, especially if it involves teaching. (I will occasionally be assigned as an usher or librarian, other than that, I am given token callings that don't require me to do anything.)
We do have an appeal process. After someone is called, we have a sustaining. Any ward or stake member can lift their hand in opposition to the calling. There is however intense church culture to just rubber stamp all callings. How dare you not sustain someone.
I am in the high council and have the chance to “approve” or “disapprove” all callings that the high council has this power over. I can reject a person. the stake president then has the chance to hear why i objected to the person being called. He then can choose to listen or reject my council. Bishoprics have bishopric councils, ward councils, to help make decisions and callings. Councils are the way the church operates. Or at least is supposed to operate.
If a bishop exercises power beyond his office, a stake president is obligated to act and so on up the ladder. I once heard an apostle say, to those men who knowingly exercise unrighteous dominion from the office of a bishop, “there is a special place in hell for them”.
Ultimately, i think God allows this kind of disorder to exist for 2 reasons. One, we have to learn somehow to be more like him and that takes practice. 2. It requires faith for everyone else to be on the receiving end of unrighteous dominion and still choose to stay. God needs disciples with a firm mind, long suffering. God will ultimately will ultimately make things right in the end.
We have a branch of 102 members. Under 30 that actively attend every week, and our family is 8 of THAT. 4 are moving out in 2 weeks, which is EQ and Primary leadership. We for SURE have this problem. 1 older couple were assigned to attend our branch from 40 miles away, so we have someone else in branch Presidency after the last family of 7 moved away.
Excellent commentary. I fully agree the game of leadership roulette is exactly as bad as you described, owing to the common penchant to exercise perceived authority unrighteously as the scripture you quoted so aptly put it. Indeed those who crave such power are the least qualified to wield such power, and yet they seem to often usurp such positions of power.
This is a huge problem in the church. Even Joseph Smith taught that the church is impeded in its progress by ignorance placing itself where it ought not, in high places.
We moved into a ward with a tyrannical bishop a few years ago, and, now, we are looking to move again, incurring a lot of debt to do so, merely to get out from under his unrighteous dominion. It really would be nice if higher up leaders would listen to your well thought out suggestions for minimizing leadership roulette and apply them. Yet again, I don't hold out much hope for such logical solutions as there seems to be plenty of fallibility and another version of roulette going on even with the church leaders at the highest levels.
Our only real hope is to have the Savior himself, the only perfect judge, as the actually gatekeeper, as Nephi taught is the case ultimately. That is the only check on bad leaders ultimately, but does almost nothing to ameliorate the problems caused by bad judges in Israel now.
Sorry, but this whole self victimization over a “tyrannical bishop” being so oppressive that you are incurring debt to move is bs.
It is so easy to lay low, be mostly active but reject callings, etc. If they try to get anything but a yes or no on temple recommend questions take it to the stake president. If you are worthy in your own eyes and haven’t trespassed on others, they can’t stop you.
Time for you to stop caring so much about your bishop and do your own thing. Watch Ferris Bueller, take a philosophical que. Your problem is caring about the Bishop’s behavior. Another case of the leadership police. Get over it.
The problems with leadership are what helped me realize that it is all man made
I agree. This is very important regarding church growth !
All your suggestions just make the handbook more rigid, with more rules, regulations, etc. Basically, they're junk.
Dr here. Medical marijuana has been terrible for young people
Doctors have also been terrible for young people. 😆
@@dustinabc multiple things can be true and once. Some doctors wrongly supported masking of children and gender dysphoria on kids. Also, marijuana can cause permanent decreased intellectual capacity, demotivational syndrome, obesity, and psychosis.
I was alone on the bishops office. He wanted to talk to me. So i have no proof. But he actually threatened my life. He used the words " I will kill you if.....". He scared the crap out of me. That was back in 2016. We have a wonderful humble listening bishop now, praise the lord! It was hard to go to church during the time of the icky bishop. He constantly gave me horrible threatening looks at meetings.
Why was he going to “kill” you? That’s very disturbing
That seems very odd… in every possible sense of being odd.
What could possibly prompt such a response?
I find it hard to believe unbelievable claims on the internet these days. Sorry if it’s true, but you are much more likely to be a church antagonist these days than to be an actual real case. Playing the odds, your comment shouldn’t carry much weight in public discourse.
@@mdcarson YEP.
@@mdcarson yup
Interesting critique. I appreciate the solutions, efforts to make things better. Maybe too much use of the term eternal salvation. Yes these decisions can be a crossroads leading to markedly different outcomes. However you think about the variations of cards dealt, billions of crummy hands….. I have more faith in the righteous judgement of an all knowing God that my eternal salvation will be determined, weighted and tallied by the totality of all the circumstances of my existence in love and righteousness with perfect justice and mercy. There will be no one to blame and nothing to appeal:)
Good video. So true and such a problem in the church. I see this only getting worse in the future
A lot of sincere thoughts that step around the real problem: the LDS church is not a meritocracy. The actual kingdom of God is.
The church has many serious issues. Imagine having your name not written in the Book of Life just because some biased ignoramus doesn't agree or like your gospel accurate interpretation. That could go both ways. You could be in the wrong or he might be. Doesn't excommunication from church disciplinary council require approval from a Q12 or area seventy. I don't think a stake president approval is sufficient enough. What Bishop or Stake pres hasn't abused their authority or made life altering mistakes for others?!
I would propose some sort of appeal process where the excommunicated or disfeelowshipped can have this discipline or disconnection from the membership restored without baptism or repentance when they are truly innocent or did no wrong per doctrine or policy. And the leader instead is disciplined. Unfortunately that won't happen with imperfect leaders. It also leads to a lot of appeal cases, but it's worth saving someone's salvation, don't ya think? It's sad, membership has come to this roulette game. I have newfound sympathy for the falsely accused.
President Nelson said trust the spirit! That’s what I’ve done and do!
Then there’s the idea that these leaders were called to these positions for just such a time (or place) as this. Much like a missionary may believe that there’s someone in their mission that only they can help.
Good musing.
When it comes to appealing membership council decisions, there is quite a bit of instruction in the Church Handbood.
You are right on!
My thought, the Lord rules even with bad leaders, Moses comes to mind.
To oppose some of the comments here. There is revelation when it comes to callings. Much of revelation is information. I think it goes to our own individual gospel living as members and leaders in the church, it's not always there.
Sorry, no. Revelation is revelation. Information is information. They are two very different things. One comes FROM GOD, one comes from man, and is quite often wrong, biased, or a total lie altogether.
Bro... I love ya.
Freedom... is messy.
I think what matters is how we react vs how someone treats us... they will get judged by that. We are imperfect vessels.
I do agree organize every needed thing is important. Im interested to hear you go more in depth on these ideas.
Spot on !
Salt Lake city above, salt town below
I agree with you on many topics but not all and I think that's as it should be. I sought counsel from the Holy Ghost and did not get the shot. Based on all the evidence, and confirmation of the Spirit, I know Joseph was not a polygamist. I believe Joseph was THE prophet of this dispensation and the restoration. I believe the men that followed him hold the keys but have been presidents of the church and not acting in the capacity of prophet. If I was excommunicated (I don't see a need for the tweaking of verbiage lately) I don't believe my covenants with God would be broken. That choice would be theirs, not mine and the leaders would have to answer for it, not me. My covenants, which I hold sacred, are between God and myself, not myself and the church. We have to have a personal relationship with the Father and know his doctrine, which is found in the scriptures. Joseph said that is doctrine contradicts earlier doctrine it's not from God. We need to see and understand the difference between doctrine and church culture.
also, the excuses “i try my best or I know I am not perfect “ are lame excuses. I believe it is important you stand up against an abusive leader or someone who teaches false incorrect aspects or truths-falsehoods.
Ok I'm a convert and don't know how to go to the on leadership above the bishop or stake president. What is the process? I saw a bishop in private in his office . I had no idea what he wanted or what the protocol was at the time. He told me and actually said he would "kill me " if I didn't quit talking to other church members about my past. The other members had been comforting me as friends like my visiting sisters. It probably was hard for them to help me with. But he grabbed my arm and used the words KILL YOU! It was scary for me to go church because he always walked by me and gave me really hateful warning looks. I actually started getting sick just thinking about going to church. We've had a wonderful bishop since then but that was a scary time. What should someone do in that position?
You can't go above a Stake President. Just 2 months ago, a Stake President in Utah told me my son couldn't be baptized on any other date than the first Saturday of the month. Not true according to the church handbook.
I had to fly 1,500 miles to see him and couldn't come in that Saturday. Stake President would not move it to a Sunday.
Look, just stick to the Book of Mormon and Christ. Follow those over any leader in this Church. Don't let anyone ever tell you different. If they help you get closer to Christ, great! If not, ignore them and come unto Jesus.
During Covid we had some members show up to church with masks and many without masks. I dont recall any chastisement or criticism taking place with anyone.
Lucky you.
We had one or two people make comments that not wearing a mask was a sign we didn’t sustain the prophet. With comments like this, there was an awkward silence, then we just moved on. Three or four families weren’t wearing masks, including mine. My wife was the only one in the primary president or teachers whose face and smile and speech the kids actually got to see for an entire year.
My brother-in-law was told by his bishop "if you don't believe President. Eldon was inspired when he urged us to be good global citizens and get the Covid vaccine, come back when you can say you know he is a true prophet and this urging was done by , and then I'll give you a temple recommend. But not until then."
So he hasn't been back to sacrament meeting since.
I think it's tragic.
President Packer told my husband to shave his mustache. Perhaps being obedient is just a better option.
Matt13:24 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. 26 But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. 27 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”
Lets be wheat, fortunately when some tare like members do something tarry I can move or ignore it.
I have appreciated Connor’s critical thinking, but it seems like everything he wants to talk about is the cynical side. Where is the faith-promoting content? The many good points that are made are eroded by the constant drum-beat of skepticism and cynicism. I don’t condemn the perspectives or the content or opinions, I just grow weary of the imbalance of the commentary. It makes me suspicious of overall motives. It’s easy to tear things down. Where is the other half of the conversation?
Also following the pattern in the Book of Mormon and early Church, predatory or apostate discipline was often public especially when there is a public interest. And it should be handled by General authorities. This creates a centralized system with a public PR check and balance to the point that frivolous apostasy actions would likely be curbed and serious ones wouldn't have to combat the defendant going public and making other PR problems.
Leadership roulette is very real but I don’t think it’s an issue. It gives us all a chance to prove who we really are. Those leaders who excercise unrighteousness dominion will be held accountable by the lord. We will be held accountable for our response. It’s easy to ignore things that are not important and if you stand for something you know is absolutely right, such as polygamy is not of God, and get ex’d for it, I think God will honor your/His covenant. And for excommunication there is an appeal process according to D&C 102. Not sure if the church honors that. Short of being ex’d I think we can wait it out. I would agree with more/better leadership training. I actually think the quality of our teaching in the church is a much bigger issue!
The Church in many cases cant stand up to people being able to air grievances. There are many lies and omissions that can't be addressed without fallout and breaking peoples foundations for testimony. I think that lies and misrepresentation are in many instances the base of this religion and pulling that down could break the whole sand castle.
34 Behold, there are many called, but few are chosen. And why are they not chosen?
36 …the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness…Reproving betimes with sharpness, when moved upon by the Holy Ghost; and then showing forth afterwards an increase of love toward him whom thou hast reproved, lest he esteem thee to be his enemy;
I’m glad I’m not in leadership. I’ve always been in music.
Something to remember: 1. A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger.
Choose your battles wisely. Do what you have to do and look out for family etc.
2 The tongue of the wise useth knowledge aright: but the mouth of fools poureth out foolishness. 1 A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger.
2 The tongue of the wise
I’m not defending anyone here. At my age I’ve had some very interesting experiences within the church …some very very good and some horrible. Some of the horrible situations….I’ve thought really! Are you aware of what you’ve just said!
It seems to me if a leader is out of control eventually they’ll get seriously reprimanded, regardless of this they’ll be held responsible. Whatever the circumstances are.
It’s not a good thing when a child or a youth is deeply hurt or offended by a non thinking member. Back up support is so very important. 1 A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger.
2 The tongue of the wise useth knowledge aright: but the mouth of fools poureth out foolishness.
I think this might be a consequence of swapping out bishops frequently. If you look at other churches, they have clergy whose entire job is leading a congregation. While that obviously has downsides, it also jas some positives that our system doesnt.
Those clergy are more fully dedicated to their role. They dont have a worldly career that they have to share their time/attention with.
This also means that they are usually more knowledgeable. They often have a college level education in their faith and are better able to answer tough, meaty questions that people have. I can almost guarantee you that the average catholic priest knows more about Catholicism than your average mormon bishop knows about the LDS faith.
Them being appointed for life means that they acrue a lot more experience dealing with problems in a congregation. A 45 year old pastor or priest who sees this as their life's calling has decades of experience in that role, as opposed to a 45 year olf LDS bishop who maybe only has a couple years of experience, no training, and another job to attend to.
Obviously their system isn't perfect. You still get bad pastors and priests, you get people who cant answer tough questions well, and you still get a bit of a roulette game that you have to play. But the problems you outlined here seem far less present in many other churches who have more long term clergy.
You're entitled to be wrong at church. I know lots of people and leaders who are wrong. The issue comes when you are trying to lead others to leave or fight the church. I go to church cause throughout the week I have made many mistakes but I come back trying to follow and be better.
Great video
Mormons love rules
Yes we do and other religions love them more. Judaism for example.
Yes we love giving our responsibility to others.... It's a human thing!
Your use of the phrase “pharisaical aspects of the Word of Wisdom” reveals your contempt for the church and a willingness to castigate its teachings. As a former member, I wonder why are you still a member?
The power of discernment would go a long way in choosing leaders. Unfortunately, there isn't much of that in the Church today. As far as being singled out for church discipline, I feel bad for the poor Bishops and SPs. Most of the time, a phone call comes from on high to pull some poor soul in and threaten to remove their membership.
As to the handbook I did greatly appreciate the recent changes on trans issues! However , I see your point that bishops etc need to use the discernment not just rules. I like the idea of vetting candidates for bishops, etc.
What did you appreciate about the trans changes?
A couple years back i sent a letter to ward and stake leadership outlining a bunch of conflicts I see between church doctrines and practices and scripture/church history. I thought I was going to be brought before a court...because I know many who were exed for less. They ended up not answering my questions and just putting me out to pasture. I think this is largely because Im in the country in Missouri. Also I havent been publicly very vocal.
The lack of uniformity is intentional. They could easily give instruction to bishops saying "If they say this this or this...put together a court." Ambiguity of outcome is intended.
Mental health and addiction go hand and hand. We see the result of a hidden injury. It’s really only God that can judge you with 100% perception.
You bring up some great points, Connor. I guess I've always thought of the discretion being granted, adaptation to local circumstances and direction to seek spiritual guidance as more of a feature than a bug. As you rightly point out, though, roulette is inherent anytime discretion is granted (similar to how black markets are inherent when free trade is disallowed).
Take church welfare, as an example - I've long believed that a bishop could have two individuals in need of assistance where, on paper, things looked essentially the same (time unemployed, lack of savings, exhausting other family resources, etc.) - but in one case, discretion (or discernment, perhaps?) would be necessary to recognize that an attitude of entitlement and/or dependence was being fostered, where if the bishop were to provide assistance it would be detrimental to them and the WRONG thing to do. Then, in the other case, where the individual's attitude was very different, it could significantly bless the individual and be "right" to provide assistance. There are SO many variables at play, that I don't see how an institution could prescribe sufficient rules that would dictate when they necessarily should versus shouldn't provide assistance. Doing so would almost necessarily create entitlement, it would seem, and undermine "providing in the Lord's way." I wonder if it wouldn't give us a welfare system that looked much more like state welfare (shutter the thought!!).
When it comes to bishops being trained, I think there is supposed to be more happening than what it seemed you portrayed. Bishoprics are supposed to be trained by and in regular contact with stake presidents (who, as you know, are almost always former bishops), so that they can counsel with them on weightier or more difficult issues. There are also supposed to be Stake Bishops' Councils held at least quarterly where bishops can counsel with one another and receive instruction from stake presidencies. When it comes to membership withdrawals, If done at a ward level, it is a bishopric that is counseling, deliberating and seeking guidance together (with the Bishop usually having counseled closely with a stake president in advance) and if at a stake level, you have an entire high council able to weigh in and hopefully keep things in check from what could be an overzealous stake president.
I guess, in the end, it's clear that the application of the principles that the Church teaches simply WILL be imperfectly executed. That's a given. I am confident that God will perfectly account for this in every extent that it impacts individuals. Part of what I've enjoyed about your musings is the critical thinker in you ... and that your musings highlight incongruence and imperfections ... which I think may be too often culturally overlooked or set aside by members of the Church. The gospel of Jesus Christ is perfect. The Church, on the other hand, is simply not perfect. It's HEALTHY for us as members to have that clear in our mind.
That said, it's nothing short of miraculous to me and, frankly, a testament to and clear sign of divine oversight, to have things as good as they are in the institution of the Church, given its volunteer nature and how crazily imperfect all of us members are. I'm incredibly grateful to be a member of it, all of its imperfections notwithstanding.
Thanks for all of your thought provoking work.
As a wife of a former bishop, I can attest that the training is woefully lacking. It basically amounts to jumping in headfirst and hitting the books (the handbook). The bishop council meetings end up not being a training, but a time where they just discuss what eachother did in certain scenarios.
"My house is a house of order" used to describe the Priesthood is in Section 132. Section 88 refers specifically to the temple.
D&C 132:8 Behold, mine house is a house of order, saith the Lord God, and not a house of confusion.
Nowhere in the scriptures does it say that your eternal salvation depends on the ordinances of the temple, or you membership in the LDS church.
D&C 10:67 Behold, this is my doctrine--whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church.
D&C 10:68 Whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me, but is against me; therefore he is not of my church.
D&C 10:69 And now, behold, whosoever is of my church, and endureth of my church to the end, him will I establish upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.
It sounds like you need to start your own church! Another influencer working for the opposite side. I promise, this won’t take you where you think you want to go. God bless!
Any bets on how long we have until he is excommunicated?
That's the beauty of an all volunteer church. You get to service for a short period of time. Just one more thing some unhappy ex- member thought of to complain about. Good luck in your life.
Is it really volunteering? It's being called...and your willingness to be called and serve.
He’s not unhappy and he’s not an ex-member. Believe it or not, some members can still be free-thinkers and faithful members and happy all at the same time.
@@GAILandROD No one makes you serve, so ultimately it is volunteering.
Why do you think Connor is an "ex-member"? You know this has always been a church supposed to be led by common consent of the people right? We are allowed to criticize the decisions of any leader, they are, after all, fallible. Christ isn't though. So just make sure you're good with Him.
I have seen enough leadership practices over the last quarter of a century to know that - at least in Utah County - callings are RARELY the result of inspiration and almost ALWAYS the result of who people like, who they agree with politically, who will keep their mouth shut and follow orders, and ultimately who they WANT to work with. What I have seen over the years, coupled with a very specific promise in my patriarchal blessing, has been disheartening enough that I no longer believe callings are from God. Even at the top, which also adds the layer of “who you know,” because not even the prophet knows everyone in the church. It also seems each new apostle is from a different country which makes me wonder if there’s some sort of a DEI aspect to it.
Also, MY current “roulette” for stake leadership is AWFUL. We are led by EXTREME unrighteous dominion. I hate it so much. And it trickles down.
What do you mean by extreme unrighteous dominion? Just curious what the issues are in that area.
@@asarg1776 just a couple examples because I don’t want to write a novel: From threatening to remove any bishop who does not comply with masking, and going so far as to send the high councilmen to each ward to watch each bishop and tattle tale back to the stake president on anyone not following orders to not allowing family members of missionaries to do the musical number in sacrament meeting for a farewell or homecoming. And everything in between those two extremes. It feels so emotionally abusive in my stake.
And I saw someone else make a comment similar to this.. but my stake president.. the way he talks at the podium… like he’s half whispering half crying all the time feels so fake and creepy, not spiritual.
And it’s hard to have conversations about the problems WITHOUT “evil speaking” by definition, because if we were to truly follow that to the letter we wouldn’t EVER bring up any concerns at all, which just isn’t right.
Exactly!
@@angelamadsen416 Oh wow. That is awful. Truly. It’s hard to believe someone being a little tyrant like that would even last in their calling. It’s surprising he hasn’t been complained about enough to make authorities aware. He should be released for the Covid wack job tyranny alone. That’s not right. I admire you hanging in there. The gospel is true. People make the church difficult at times.
Connor, really you have a duty to discuss adultery. How are people to repent without having the knowledge? No man can be saved in ignorance.
?
@@l7846 90 % of the world are adulterers if you apply God's laws. It happens to be one of the most rebellious sins you can commit, that separates you from God. And yet nobody knows anything about it. We live in one of the most adulterous generations that have ever existed, all the while claiming we are "Christians". It is a topic that would and should offend most people, even in the church.
Connor, you have issues.
Heber c projected in 1867 that life would be too complex and we would have to live on our own light in addition we would be saved off our own light and nothing else. End of story end of debate. Read it. Can't throw this under the bus.
There are three degrees of glory, each one governed by laws. The laws and ways of the celestial kingdom are higher that the laws and ways of the terrestrial. The government of the celestial kingdom is democracy from the ground up, the government of the people. The government of the terrestrial is from the top down. Government from the top own, easily lends itself to dictatorship or as Joseph Smith called it, unrighteous dominion. The problem in the government of the church today is that is controlled by the deep state, which is terrestrial. As you pointed out last week, all the leaders of the church are members of the Jesuit-Illuminati conspiracy and they are dictators. You do their will or they will send you to hell. Connor, you are not going to fix the problem of leadership roulette as long as the criminals are in charge of the church. Only God can fix that problem and he is going to do that very soon. If the leaders of the church do not repent of their idolatry and separate themselves from the Jesuit-Illuminati conspiracy, they will be destroyed. When they are gone, then we can fix problem. So now Connor, let's think about this Celestially. The fifth article of faith is that we believe that a man must be called by prophecy and the laying on of hands. What is prophecy? Prophecy is the testimony of Jesus. A man must be called having the testimony of Jesus. He must, at least, have been born ago and been baptized by fire and the holy Ghost. It would be better if he were sanctified and had the testimony of having been in the presence of God. So let's fix the church from the ground up. After the criminals at the head of the church are destroyed, all bishops and stake presidents are released. So, on the first Sunday after their destruction, the ward members meet and elect a bishop from the congregation. What you are looking for, is that he has, at least, been born again. If nobody in the ward has been born again, then it is time for the whole ward to get on their knees repenting and praying forgiveness and rededicating themselves to the Lord. But for now, let's say there is one guy, who has been born again, there is your bishop and the priesthood join together to ordain him their bishop. Then after the wards in the stake have chosen their bishops, then the bishops get together and choose one of them to be the stake president and they will take their choice to the wards and if approved, the bishops with ordain him the stake president. The wards will also choose a representative from each ward to be on the stake high council. If you are interested in knowing what the church will look like after the Lord cleans his house, let me know. I will be glad to educate you.
How do you calculate tithing?
The Lord spells it out in Section 119
“Pay one-tenth of all [your] interest annually”.
Nobody, not even the First Presidency, has the authority to change God’s words.
The 1828 Webster dictionary says, “interest: any surplus” Income is not interest.
Say if you earned $40,000 in a year and after you paid all of your bills you have $2000
leftover, a surplus. You would pay $200 for tithing.
It is between you and the Lord.
Meant prophesied not project
All you're doing is stating possibilities. You're criticizing the church just to criticize, giving us a half hour of smoke without fire. You can do as you wish (you have your own free agency); however, if you continue on in your role as self-appointed critic of church leadership, I don't give you great odds of remaining in the church.
Instead of quoting Joseph Smith’s observation that “it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion” (D&C 121:39), you also should acknowledge his quote, “I will give you one of the Keys of the mysteries of the Kingdom. It is an eternal principle, that has existed with God from all eternity: That man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way, while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly, that that man is in the high road to apostasy; and if he does not repent, will apostatize, as God lives.” Both need to balance the other, and quite frankly, your videos come down more heavily on the side of the former than the latter.
I think the Lord is more appreciative of loyalty than criticism (see Numbers 11). Most of your videos criticize the church, and that's troubling.
...
So why are you here? Criticizing to a choir.
Then why do you watch them? Are you a closet apostate? Letting your curiosity get the better of you?
Did you know it is VERY possible to still be a faithful and active member of the church and still have concerns about some of the leaders? It’s because we don’t belong to the church of the current bishop, or the church of the current stake president, or even the church of the current prophet. We belong to the church of JESUS CHRIST, and it is HE whom we place our faith and trust in and where our testimonies lie.
@angelamadsen416 Well Said!
@@angelamadsen416 » Fine, but what are we going to do, judge each bishop, stake president, elders president and relief society president on an individual basis? YES, I suppose that's possible, but I've been around the block a few times and it's not ended well for many. Yet I will always vote for free speech in each case. I merely say, be careful.
Large organization, bound to happen. Lot to do about nothing.
Mormonism is cray cray 🤪 just listen to Connor’s story about getting ratted out by other members for opposing the church. His words, not mine. Classic cult behavior tbh
Judging the whole group based on the actions of only a portion of that group is the principle behind racism, sexism, etc.
Why do you think it’s ok when you do it against Mormons?
@@ExtraMedium- it’s a consistent theme of Mormonism. Look good on the outside, while harboring ill will against your own Mormon neighbor on the inside. Look at how they rat on each other instead of loving their neighbor. Like I said, it’s Connor’s story as he told it. Same with any ExMo who has no motivation to hide truth and be anything other than honest. It’s generally the believing Mormons, maybe Connor aside, who are afraid to admit it and be honest.
We worship Jesus and God, not other Mormons🤦♂️
@@mrvroom188 have you looked at the characteristics of the Mormon god and Mormon Jesus though? Just make believe exalted men who were mere intelligences near the star of Kolob, not the eternal and living Creator who was from the beginning. Big difference with eternal consequences if you believe in the one manufactured by a false prophet (hint JS).
@@mikespage0123 there is no “Mormon god” or “Mormon Jesus”, we believe in the Jesus that has been proven to have lived with historical evidence. None of this Eminem Slim Shady nonsense y’all think it is